Why Don’t You Have Sex With Your Sister? - Dr Debra Lieberman

1. 0:00 – 7:57

   Why Don’t We Want to Have Sex With Our Siblings?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Why don't people want to have sex with their sister?

   2. DLDr. Debra Lieberman0:02

      (laughs) Or their brother. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson0:05

      Or their brother.

   4. DLDr. Debra Lieberman0:05

      Or other family members.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:06

      Yep.

   6. DLDr. Debra Lieberman0:07

      It ends up that humans have a natural inbreeding avoidance system that develops pretty reliably in most folks exposed to the cues, uh, which I term kinship cues, uh, that are available during childhood. Um...

   7. CWChris Williamson0:24

      Right. Well, what about animals? Because I understand there is this label, that's your brother, that's your sister. How do animals actually detect who their relatives are? We just take it for granted in humans, you can point and say. But animals don't have language, so how do they know?

   8. DLDr. Debra Lieberman0:41

      This is a really good question. It's always fun to open up a interview with incest. (laughs) Incest avoidance.

   9. CWChris Williamson0:47

      Incestoview, yeah.

   10. DLDr. Debra Lieberman0:48

       Um, yes. And so, so it's a really good question. How do we know who our close genetic relatives are and why is that important? Um, well first, it's important to know who your close genetic relatives are not only for the purpose of not mating with them, because mating with close genetic relatives can cause a host of problems. So it leads to, uh, less, um, less healthy offspring, for instance, and offspring who might suffer from greater genetic mutations. Uh, so evolution engineered into our psychology a very sophisticated system to allow us to detect a- uh, detect relatives, close genetic relatives, and develop a sexual aversion towards them. We don't even typically think of them as possible, uh, mating partners. It's not foolproof, uh, but this is what tends to happen. And ano- the other reason why we should have a system for naturally detecting and automatically detecting genetic relatedness is for altruism. So being nice to your close genetic relatives follows from Hamilton's theory of inclusive fitness. We're nice to other people as a function. One way altruism can evolve is by being nice to people who tend to share, uh, genes by common descent. But you asked the question of, so how do we do this? Um, and 'cause humans aren't the only species that encountered this problem of avoiding mating with close genetic relatives for biological purposes. And so other animals without language or culture, they use cues, cues that correlated with another individual being a close genetic relative, uh, i- in that species's, uh, you know, evolutionary history. So whether it's being part of the same litter or a smell, um, or imprinting on a particular place or a marking, these are the kinds of things that evolution h- can engineer to help guide kin detection. Humans have language, and so language, uh, and culture map very nicely onto these systems. Um, but it, they're imperfect, and so even though we could join a sorority or fraternity and call people brother, sister, or in certain religions, father, mother, uh, you know who your actual father and mother are. You know, well, with good certainty you know with your m- who your mom is, who your daddy is is always an interesting question. But certainly siblings are, uh, also individuals who you tend to correctly identify, or would have at least in ancestral environments. Um, so we don't use language. Likely we just used the cues that correlated. And so if you want to go around the horn of the f- nuclear family to figure out, um, how do we detect who our close genetic relatives are, well, who, how do you know who your mother is? This is the female who tended to primarily, uh, breastfeed you. So this type of imprinting or mapping onto the female who nursed you. How does a mom know who her child is? Well, that's kind of, it, yes, it falls out of you, unmistakable. Um, how does a child know who, uh, her father is? This is, uh, not pinned down. I mean, it is a question. I mean, mommy's baby, daddy's maybe.

   11. CWChris Williamson3:56

       (laughs)

   12. DLDr. Debra Lieberman3:56

       So the question about how as it is that people, um, how does people identify their father really probably goes through understanding who is, who's, have I correctly identified my mother and what males are investing in her? Because males are going to rely on their paternity certainty in order to direct investment towards their, uh, offspring. So relying on what kind of, who's investing in me heavily, uh, out there could be one cue that females use. But also, the male that was around very early on in development has a better chance of being one's dad...

   13. CWChris Williamson4:32

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DLDr. Debra Lieberman4:33

       ... than the male that one's mom kind of, uh, is hanging out with, uh, later on in life. So, but it's a really, it's a really good question. So might phenotype matching, uh, occur? It could be. I don't, I'm not a fan.

   15. CWChris Williamson4:45

       What does that mean?

   16. DLDr. Debra Lieberman4:45

       So sorry, that is, do people use facial resemblance as a cue, uh, to- to understand who's likely a relative? That- that hypothesis, uh, does have some interesting data backing it. I- I'm not, I'm not a fan of it only because I think ancestrally people looked really similar. And not only that, just by the assortment of genes, siblings can look and fathers can look a lot like their offspring or not as much like their offspring but still be related, uh, you know, with good certainty. And so I'm not quite sure pinning how we determine kinship onto a few genes that happen to govern facial, uh, features is- is the right way to do it. But maybe it contributes, to be sure. Certainly when we see people who look similar- similar to us that can spark a type of kinship, but I think that has more to do with a friendship. And, uh...

   17. CWChris Williamson5:42

       It's in-group, out-group tribalism.

   18. DLDr. Debra Lieberman5:44

       Maybe or also we're always looking for people who might value us and identifying people who share features in...... any feature. Like, you know, if you were to say, "Oh my gosh, I have a sister, her name is Debra-Lynn," I'd be like, "Oh my God, I like you even more." (laughs) Like, I don't-

   19. CWChris Williamson6:01

       Oh yeah, what's the- the naming effect? There's more people called Butcher that end up being butchers, and more people called Travis that live in Travis, and my- my- my mom and dad's names both start with a K.

   20. DLDr. Debra Lieberman6:11

       That's a different thing. (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson6:11

       All right. Well, whatever. Like, okay. I- look-

   22. DLDr. Debra Lieberman6:13

       Oh, but they both start with a K.

   23. CWChris Williamson6:14

       Yeah.

   24. DLDr. Debra Lieberman6:14

       Well, that- that's- it's- that is very interesting. I mean, the idea that we can, we seek, and we're always looking for people who might value us. So o- looking for overlap in any dimension is something we do naturally to form friendships.

   25. CWChris Williamson6:29

       So, are you saying that the same mechanism that we use to identify who our kin is in order to do reciprocal altruism, I need to look after them more than I would look after a- a cousin or a s- third cousin or a friend or a stranger, is the same one that does incest avoidance?

   26. DLDr. Debra Lieberman6:54

       So, the system that is being used to identify kin for the purpose of being nice to them

   27. CWChris Williamson7:01

       Yeah.

   28. DLDr. Debra Lieberman7:01

       ... like the inclusive fitness-

   29. CWChris Williamson7:03

       Yeah.

   30. DLDr. Debra Lieberman7:03

       ... is the same kin detection system that's operating for evaluating someone as a sexual partner. So, one-
2. 7:57 – 19:04

   What Cues Trigger Our Incest Avoidance Mechanism?

   1. CWChris Williamson7:57

      Oh, okay. So has this been, this has to have been tested in adopted siblings. So if you see pregnancy or breastfeeding, uh, but you don't share the, like, early co-residence window, like does that still trigger incest avoidance? Like, you know, w- h- w- how can you play around with some of the triggers here to see, to- to see what really works?

   2. DLDr. Debra Lieberman8:19

      So my research focused on siblings. Uh, I did a little bit of the- the, uh, parent-offspring as well, but the bulk of my research was on how do siblings figure out who they are, you know, w- who's related to them? And it looks as if there's two separate cues. So one unmistakable cue that someone is a close genetic, or is a sibling, is you see your mom, and to the extent you've met the right woman as mom. Uh, your mom, b- you know, pregnant, give birth to, caring for, breastfeeding a newborn. That is an unmistakable cue that that their kid, you know, breastfeeding from my mom, being cared for, you know, by my mom is my sibling. And that actually f- w- operates, regardless of actual genetic relatedness. Um, I'll click in-

   3. CWChris Williamson9:05

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you can fake, you can fake it, kind of. You wouldn't need to give birth to it. You would just have to breastfeed it.

   4. DLDr. Debra Lieberman9:12

      Right. And there's actually natural experiments that have shown this to be true. So in, uh, Taiwan, there was, uh, that's no longer, um, being practiced, but a form of marriage called minor marriage, where parents would adopt in a newborn girl, uh, into their family, either because they had a son or they, or were hoping to have a son in the next year or so. And they brought up this adopted girl alongside their son until teenage years when someone said, "And now you will marry."

   5. CWChris Williamson9:46

      Oh, God. But they didn't realize that they'd triggered this incest avoidance mechanism.

   6. DLDr. Debra Lieberman9:50

      Correct. And so, but one of the interesting findings is that the, um, mom, the adopted mom would oftentimes breastfeed the newborn. And so what had, what happened is that the son would abs- have observed his mother breastfeeding a child that is in fact not an actual genetic sibling. And so-

   7. CWChris Williamson10:08

      I imagine that doesn't lay a particularly good foundation for a future successful marriage.

   8. DLDr. Debra Lieberman10:14

      No, but here's ... So we're going, we're gonna go a bit far field here. But the idea is, here's one of the striking things about that particular, um, natural experiment that occurred. This was documented by anthropologist Arthur Wolf. He found and reported that even among, um, children who were raised together from very early age, many of them did marry and did produce offspring. So when cultural norms are that strong, it can actually cause you to, you know, do things that you otherwise might not choose to do. Now, in those marriages, those unions tended to end more often in divorce, and there were more extramarital affairs. So the record keeping was incredible, um, by the colonial government. But it was, uh, so those marriages, when they were raised together from birth, they tended to have fewer kids, but they did produce kids. Greater- more marriage, uh, more divorce, and more extramarital affairs compared to marriages where it was the traditional arranged marriage, where kids were just raised in their natal household and then met as adults.

   9. CWChris Williamson11:22

      Hmm. Okay, so the first one was breastfeeding.

   10. DLDr. Debra Lieberman11:24

       Okay. So yeah, so sorry. So back, brr, back. So the first really potent cue to who is a sibling is who did I see my mom caring for? Kind of this maternal, uh, investment. The second cue. So this is a great cue, but what happens if you're the younger sibling in a pair? You weren't around to see your mom care for your older sibling as a newborn.

   11. CWChris Williamson11:42

       Mm-hmm.

   12. DLDr. Debra Lieberman11:43

       Uh, what are you to do? And so this starts to get into the Westermarck effect. So Edward Westermarck was a Finnish social scientist, and he, you know, recognized that children who were raised together throughout childhood tend to develop a sexual aversion toward one another later in adulthood. This has been termed the Westermarck effect, and what he was identifying is this second cue of co-residence duration. So I like, so it's been operationalized as co-residence, meaning that if you're the younger sibling in a pair, you've got an older sibling, how do you know that your- they're actually your genetic relative? How does your brain figure that out?You track how long that they lived with you under the same roof, receiving care from the same two individuals. So it's really still about parental investment-

   13. CWChris Williamson12:32

       Hmm.

   14. DLDr. Debra Lieberman12:32

       ... shared parental investment, the amount of time that you see them being cared for by the same two individuals, predominantly probably mother, um, over the course of dependency. And so this is why the longer the duration of co-residence during early childhood, the more certain you are that an individual, again implicitly, is a genetic relative. And this leads to not only greater altruism towards that person, but also greater disgust about the thought of sex with that person.

   15. CWChris Williamson13:01

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   16. DLDr. Debra Lieberman14:10

       So, it was thought that perhaps there was a clear kind of imprinting period. My research shows that it basically, it- it just, each year of co-residence seems to add a little bit of certainty, um, or I should say reduces the uncertainty that someone is a genetic relative. So, it looks like throughout the period of dependency, starting from birth... Starting from birth is key. And so individuals who kind of meet later on, the effect still holds, but it's not as strong as people who are exposed to a sibling right from the get-go.

   17. CWChris Williamson14:45

       I imagine the potential for an absentee father to come back into a daughter's life later in her life, this is one of the leapfrog, avoided the Westermarck window challenges that can cause some, uh, pretty uncomfortable outcomes.

   18. DLDr. Debra Lieberman15:02

       Well, it's... So, I would say that fathers don't recognize their daughters by the Westermarck effect. So, Westermarck effect is gonna be all about, yes, it's co-residence duration, and that might make it seem like it operates for all family members, but it's really about observing who is investing in whom, right? So the idea of I'm- if I have an older sibling, I see that the same female who's feeding me, yelling at me, (laughs) you know, caring for me when I'm sick and so forth is also doing the same thing-

   19. CWChris Williamson15:31

       Mm-hmm.

   20. DLDr. Debra Lieberman15:31

       ... to another older child. I have a good idea that that's my, that's my sibling. So that's... And the longer they require that type of, um, investment, that's the kind of period of co-residence that we're talking about. For fa- But you raise really important things. So, people who are not exposed to these cues, so what does this mean? So this gets us into fun territory. So people who are not exposed to these cues, they really don't map other people on as siblings. And so mo- fast forward to modern environments where you now have these sperm banks, right? So you can have guys who are depositing their sperm and women are collecting it and they're having all these kids and now there's all these half siblings running around (laughs) and now you can meet them. Um, in fact there- I remember, I don't know, 10- 10 years ago, but it was probably more like 20 at this point, that there was a show, like, that kind of brought together all of these, um, paternal half siblings, and they all... They were really enjoying each other's company. And I think there was one remark about even being attracted to one another. And so you wonder, how does this happen? Well, a couple of things. There's a couple of things going on. First, there's no natural sexual aversion that's developed. There's no, there's no system that's activated to say, "This is my sibling." You telling me that you're my sibling, that- that a person is my sibling, you know, that's not really gonna do very much to me, you know, that explicit information. It's like someone... Imagine someone knocking on your door and saying, you know, "Your mate that you've been living with for 15 years, that's really your genetic relative." And so it really wouldn't (laughs) really change the way you feel. You might say, "Well, maybe we shouldn't have more kids," but in general, it's not gonna kind of cause, uh, a disgust, I- I- I would guess. But here's the other thing that's interesting. By virtue of sharing, why is it you find, like, what's called genetic sexual attraction? So it's been thought to be a thing. Have you heard of this, genetic sexual attraction?

   21. CWChris Williamson17:31

       No.

   22. DLDr. Debra Lieberman17:31

       That's good. Maybe it's not out there. Maybe I shouldn't talk about it

   23. CWChris Williamson17:34

       (laughs) Get it out there.

   24. DLDr. Debra Lieberman17:35

       (laughs) Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson17:35

       Information hazard, we need to share it.

   26. DLDr. Debra Lieberman17:36

       I'll put it out there and I'll just kind of-

   27. CWChris Williamson17:38

       Yeah.

   28. DLDr. Debra Lieberman17:38

       ... wipe it away. So, genetic sexual attraction. It's been thought that, oh, we actually really are attracted to our family members. Um, so Freud was right and we kind of harbor these sexual desires. Um, no, uh, not so much. And so I would say probably what happens is that by virtue of the fact that we share genes in common with our close genetic relatives, we develop very similar preferences, right? So, imagine tr- designing your perfect mate, right? So what does- what does your mate look like? What do they like to do? What do they like to eat? When do they like to get up? When do they like to exercise? What kind of... You know, all these kinds of things. You know, it's like you... And then you finally meet someone, it's like, "You like kung fu movies? I like kung fu movies. You like spicy foods? I like spicy foods. You like getting up really early in the morning? Yeah! You like reading and (laughs) you like evolutionary psychology?" Like, I mean, literally it is you imagine all these different traits that line up in your really good friends and the mate that you would design if you could. Suddenly you meet a sibling.... who actually shares a lot of these preferences and these dispositions, and it's like, well, this kind of hits a bullseye. Um, and so the fact that, you know, people might find, uh, genetic relatives without a sexual aversion present, people that they enjoy spending time with, doesn't, uh, surprise me very much.

   29. CWChris Williamson19:02

       Well, I mean,

3. 19:04 – 27:19

   Is Incest Disgust a Moral Pressure?

   1. CWChris Williamson19:04

      uh, I guess it depends how annoying your brother or sister is, but-

   2. DLDr. Debra Lieberman19:07

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson19:07

      ... a lot of people, a lot of people like to spend time with their brothers and sisters, uh, not just because of the history that they've got together. And if you remove the incest aversion, if you remove the disgust response-

   4. DLDr. Debra Lieberman19:18

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson19:18

      ... and you're of the sex that that person is attracted to, so, well, why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you do this? And, uh, yet what you're saying is basically if you, if you weren't brother and sister, but you are, but if you weren't, what would that be like? That'd be pretty, it'd be pretty sweet because, you know, 50% of everything we are psychologically is at least in some part shaped by our, uh, behavioral genetics. Okay. Well, I mean, 50% is a lot more than a lot of relationships that have lasted for quite a while.

   6. DLDr. Debra Lieberman19:51

      I, I'm not quite sure what to say (laughs) in response to that. But what you did... Uh, so I'll just say, okay. And that's (laughs) the other thing is that what you bring up though is, um, Jonathan Haidt's great experiment. Are you familiar with the Mark and Julie experiment?

   7. CWChris Williamson20:08

      Maybe. Give it, give it, give it time.

   8. DLDr. Debra Lieberman20:09

      And moral dumbfounding? Okay. So, Jonathan Haidt did a really great study on moral dumbfounding that had to do with inbreeding avoidance, and he brought students into the lab and... or participants into the lab, and he gave them the following scenario. Imagine there's Julie and Mark, and they're brothers and sisters. They're brother and sister, and they decide they want to have sex, and they decide, you know, they really want to. They're adults. They're consenting. They're going to use like five condoms. They can't get pregnant. No one's gonna know. (laughs) They're never going to do it again. Wipe their memory, and they'll never even remember it, and no one's going to experience any emotional or physical harm. It's something you really want. So, it's all positive, all (laughs) you know, win-win. And so, uh, you know, and so, um, Jonathan Haidt would pose these questions to participants and say, "Is it wrong for them to have sex?" And, you know, all the participants were like, "Yes." And then he's like, "Well, why?" "Well, the condom could break." "No, no, no, condom doesn't break. They're wearing five of them, and she's on birth control. Like, n- everything's fine." Uh, "Someone could find out." "No, no, no." And so, uh, you know, they try to kind of find a way and a r- a rationalization as to why it's wrong, and finally, they just give up. "I don't know. It's just wrong." And so he called this moral dumbfounding, and it's really a good question as to what's going on, and are people saying that it's wrong because they're concerned about the harm that could befall Julie and Mark?

   9. CWChris Williamson21:40

      Mm-hmm.

   10. DLDr. Debra Lieberman21:40

       Uh, and most people are saying yes because most people still think that there could be a harm. I actually think that the reason why people say that it's wrong is not because of Julie and Mark. I don't think people care about Julie and Mark. (laughs) I think that people care about being in that room with Jonathan Haidt and the other experimenters, to be like, "I think incest is okay." (laughs) "I think it's okay." If-

   11. CWChris Williamson22:01

       Oh, so you think it's all just like observer effect stuff?

   12. DLDr. Debra Lieberman22:05

       I think it's the idea that I could be going against a societal norm, that the majority is on the other side, and I could be seen as a minority. I think we're very... I think we are very sensitive to sticking our necks out on issues where a majority holds one, and we are going to oppose it publicly-

   13. CWChris Williamson22:23

       Well, I mean, surely you could just-

   14. DLDr. Debra Lieberman22:24

       ... to authority.

   15. CWChris Williamson22:25

       ... you could just control this by changing the way the people submit their answers, right? You could submit them in complete anonymity. You could do it through a form. You could do it anonymously on the internet. Has this been... this has to... if this is such a, an obvious potential explanation, this has to have been tested.

   16. DLDr. Debra Lieberman22:40

       I don't think it's obvious because I think people have been so focused as morality is cooperation. Um-

   17. CWChris Williamson22:45

       Mm-hmm.

   18. DLDr. Debra Lieberman22:45

       And I think that morality... I mean, who wants me to talk about? (laughs) Getting back into the disgust and morality stuff, but, um, it's very possible that people, um, are very sensitive about moral condemnation, and, uh... Anyway, if you... I think you'll only get to this hypothesis if you think that people don't care about harm (laughs) to-

   19. CWChris Williamson23:07

       Right, right, right, right.

   20. DLDr. Debra Lieberman23:07

       ... them, but harm to themselves.

   21. CWChris Williamson23:09

       Okay. What, what was that study where you asked men to imagine tongue kissing their sister?

   22. DLDr. Debra Lieberman23:15

       Um, that was, uh... Well, there's been a few. (laughs) I've done other stuff, like on positive things like gratitude that we're not going to talk about here. (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson23:25

       No, no, no, no, sorry, I'm, I'm keeping my foot on the neck of incest at the moment.

   24. DLDr. Debra Lieberman23:30

       Incest avoidance, please. Um, okay, so yes. There... I've done a few studies. So, one of the ways that we have to collect data on what people find objectionable and disgusting is to ask them to imagine, um, is to a- ask them to imagine engaging in a variety of sexual behaviors. Uh, and so how do you do this and ethic- ethically, right? So, asking subjects to imagine tongue kissing their sibling, or having sex, or, you know, taking a shower with them. Um, what's interesting about that is at least a, a while back when I collected those data, females were all at ceiling. You couldn't... Like, one to seven, they'd be like 10. Like, you wouldn't... they wouldn't (laughs) be happy. The amount of variation that I found in female responses, seriously, the, the bars on my graph were like, or basically touching. There were very, very little variation. All very squeezed (laughs) right up at ceiling. Um, males, on the other hand, uh, the variant structure was, uh, quite wide, which I found, um, humorous, but it all gets back to... I mean, it's not humorous. This is a very serious subject, and actually, it is. Um, and so it gets back to some of the cost of reproduction.Females, when selecting a mate, have to consider all of ... I mean, they are on the hook for, you know, nine months of, ten months of gestation, three years of lactation. Um, and so getting a baby up and running is easily three, four years ancestrally. So any bad decision in terms of investing, uh, uh, time and energy into an offspring with a reduced chance of survival, uh, would have been, uh, heavily selected against. Males, their ... The opportunity costs are, are far less. Um, and so males, while they should not be, um, pro-sibling incest, would find it slightly less horrifically objectionable-

   25. CWChris Williamson25:25

       Well, I mean, women-

   26. DLDr. Debra Lieberman25:25

       ... as compared to females.

   27. CWChris Williamson25:27

       Women also usually have a lower disgust threshold than men, right?

   28. DLDr. Debra Lieberman25:31

       Mm-hmm. Uh, for most things, yes. For most things. You know, I tested this. I asked women a whole bunch of different things about how disgusting you find a variety of things, and you're absolutely right, that women are far more disgusted by a great many things. It ends up (laughs) there are a couple of things that, uh, flipped, which were, um, you know, changing diapers. Females-

   29. CWChris Williamson25:50

       Okay.

   30. DLDr. Debra Lieberman25:50

       ... were like, "That's ..." Yeah. And, and then, having sex during your period, so that also, um ... That f- sorry. It's gross. It's all gross. But so, there you go. Um, but that, but females-
4. 27:19 – 31:11

   How Only Children Make Sense of Incest

   1. CWChris Williamson27:19

      So, look, I'm an only child, and I've realized that I don't have the same visceral disgust response that others have about sibling incest. Like, I understand logically why it's a terrible idea, but I don't get the same gut-level recoil. It's ... Do you know what it's like? It's like hearing smokers say, "I need a cigarette." Like, I get the concept, but I don't have the, the, the craving or whatever, or the opposite of the craving.

   2. DLDr. Debra Lieberman27:45

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson27:45

      Like, I don't have that, that aversion. Um, why ... Well, I mean, uh, l- ... Is that normal? Have you looked at, at people who ... 'Cause I ... It is literally like I don't have a language. I guess someone could say, "Well, imagine having sex with your mum," and I'm like, "Yeah, but I ... Like, the ... You've a- you've got the age thing that's already in there on top of, like, the fact that she's my mum." So, I think for most people that have siblings, it's almost like they have a language of disgust that I don't have the, the, the, the understanding of. Does that make sense?

   4. DLDr. Debra Lieberman28:13

      Oh, 100%. So, um, I'll tell you about another study that I did that didn't get published, but, uh, it's enjoyable nonetheless.

   5. CWChris Williamson28:21

      The best kind.

   6. DLDr. Debra Lieberman28:21

      Um, and so I ... So I don't have a brother, and my co-authors don't have opposite sex siblings, so Leda Cosmides is an only child-

   7. CWChris Williamson28:31

      Legend.

   8. DLDr. Debra Lieberman28:31

      ... and John, John Tooby only had brothers.

   9. CWChris Williamson28:33

      Legend.

   10. DLDr. Debra Lieberman28:33

       And so the three of us sitting around talking about how do w- gross each other out with these acts, it was act- it was very disturbing talking about these things with your advisors. (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson28:44

       (laughs)

   12. DLDr. Debra Lieberman28:44

       I re- I have a ... I remember, uh, that conversation and being like, "I'm, I'm done. I'm out." (laughs) So, um, but it was ... We did another study, which was videotaping facial expressions. At the time I started, uh, kin detection, no one had s- really started to look into the psychological aspects of it. But one of the things that we had to do was validate disgust as a possible measure. And, you k- in science, even though it's obvious if you just ask what emotion comes to mind if you think about tongue kissing a sibling, most people be like, "It's really gross," and there (laughs) you have your dependent measure. You have to establish that. So I set up, um, I set up a lab where I recorded people's facial expressions and, and did a variety of things to understand what facial ... what muscles were actually activated in response to a variety of different act- things that n- we know elicited disgust, but then also the, the sibling incest stuff. And, um, so there people are looking at the screen, seeing acts come up on the screen and res- and just responding to them or just reacting to them. And most of them would have these, you know ... So in addition to, like, eating your favorite dessert, it would be like, you know, putting your hand in a toilet and all these other things that you would see the f- the muscles, the nose scruncher muscle-

   13. CWChris Williamson30:04

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   14. DLDr. Debra Lieberman30:04

       ... for disgust activate. When I was matching what was on the screen to participants, because those are two different video feeds, I remember seeing one of the matching up the ... seeing a guy kind of smile, like, "Hmm." Uh, and I was like, "Wait a minute. Do I have the time s- the time code right? Like, am I matching it right?" 'Cause it says, like, tongue kiss a sibling. Like, (laughs) like, what's going on here? I was like, "Oh, no!" Uh, and so I was like ... And I remember f- furiously going through all the survey pages to be like, "Please don't have a sibling. Please don't have a sibling." (laughs) And it ends up the guy didn't have any sisters at all, and so I found that really interesting. It kind of gets to what you're talking about, the idea that it doesn't map onto anything. And so it was like, imagine ... It was basically like, imagine having sex with a girl. And he's like, "Hmm." (laughs) And so, without that natural aversion, um, it's, you don't have such a strong, a strong reaction.

   15. CWChris Williamson31:03

       Right.

   16. DLDr. Debra Lieberman31:04

       Hmm. (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson31:06

       Okay.

   18. DLDr. Debra Lieberman31:07

       Next topic. (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson31:10

       If... Uh,

5. 31:11 – 37:19

   Why Is Incest P**n So Popular?

   1. CWChris Williamson31:11

      yeah. If incest disgust is so strong, why is incest porn such a huge category online? You'd expect it to barely exist, and yet it's massive.

   2. DLDr. Debra Lieberman31:20

      Well, I mean, are they really siblings? I mean, people do anything for money. Well, I mean, so, so first off, it's money, and so the idea is if people are gonna pay, and you need money, I mean, that's... Sure, people do stuff for money, and people do gross stuff all the time, right?

   3. CWChris Williamson31:36

      No. No, no, no, no. No, no, no.

   4. DLDr. Debra Lieberman31:37

      Oh, am I not getting-

   5. CWChris Williamson31:37

      Why is there an- why is there an audience for it?

   6. DLDr. Debra Lieberman31:39

      Oh, why is there an audience for it? Because there-

   7. CWChris Williamson31:41

      No, why are people doing it? I don't think that that many brothers and sisters are being employed. That would be, that would be a very special kind of...

   8. DLDr. Debra Lieberman31:52

      Relationship. (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson31:54

      It would be a really special kind of business.

   10. DLDr. Debra Lieberman31:56

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson31:57

       I, I, I imagine that the margins would be really bad. The amount of money you'd need to pay most people to have sex with their sibling would probably be pretty high.

   12. DLDr. Debra Lieberman32:04

       (laughs) Yes.

   13. CWChris Williamson32:06

       Why is there a big audience for it?

   14. DLDr. Debra Lieberman32:08

       Why is there a big audience for it? Well, I watch Game of Thrones, and the idea that, you know, these two people... What is it? Um, Jon Snow and, you know, Daenerys, they were, ended up being related. I don't think that prevented people from watching that. I think people aren't... They're, it's just two people who are naked having sex, (laughs) like... And not only that, uh, so there's that, there's that. And then the idea of kin detection is imperfect, right? So, if you don't have a sibling, and you're like, "Oh, well, this sounds kind of neat and risque," (laughs) like-

   15. CWChris Williamson32:45

       Oh, right. You're saying-

   16. DLDr. Debra Lieberman32:46

       It's just two people.

   17. CWChris Williamson32:46

       ... are you saying that incest porn is exclusively watched by only children?

   18. DLDr. Debra Lieberman32:51

       I don't think-

   19. CWChris Williamson32:51

       Is that you're-

   20. DLDr. Debra Lieberman32:51

       I don't, I don't-

   21. CWChris Williamson32:52

       ... largely watch-

   22. DLDr. Debra Lieberman32:52

       My hypothesis would be that a guy with six sisters is not the person who's watching this, unless it's-

   23. CWChris Williamson32:59

       That would be so, that would be such a fucking good study. You should do this. This is your next study. Your next study is to work out-

   24. DLDr. Debra Lieberman33:05

       (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson33:06

       ... is to work out, um, whether the likelihood of watching incest porn goes down based on the number of opposite-sex siblings that you've got. Yes.

   26. DLDr. Debra Lieberman33:16

       Uh, y-

   27. CWChris Williamson33:16

       I mean it, the world needs to know.

   28. DLDr. Debra Lieberman33:18

       Hmm, okay. Well, I'm, I'm really hoping someone in your audience will now undertake that.

   29. CWChris Williamson33:23

       This is you. You are in my-

   30. DLDr. Debra Lieberman33:23

       I-
6. 37:19 – 52:53

   Why Do We Cry?

   1. CWChris Williamson37:19

      Okay. Uh, you had this fantastic article on crying...

   2. DLDr. Debra Lieberman37:23

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson37:23

      ... which I read a few months ago. It's- it is one of the best things that I've read in a long time. I think it's really, really great. So, I want to... We've talked (laughs) talked about incest, now I'm gonna talk about crying. Um... Before we continue, I've been drinking AG1 every day for years now because it's the simplest way that I found to cover my bases and not overthink nutrition. And that is why I've partnered with them. One scoop gives you 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food ingredients in a single drink. And now they've taken it even further with AG1 Next Gen, the same one scoop, once a day ritual, but this time backed by four clinical trials. In those trials, it was shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels in just three months, and increase healthy gut bacteria by ten times, even in people who already eat well. They've upgraded the formula with better probiotics, more bioavailable nutrients, and clinical validation. And it's still NSF certified for sport, meaning that even Olympic athletes can use it. Plus, if I ever actually found something better, I would switch, but I haven't, which is why I still use it every day. And if you're on the fence, they've got a 90-day money back guarantee. Buy it and try it, and if you don't love it, they will give you your money back. Right now, you can get a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2, free AG1 travel packs, a welcome kit, and that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. What's the evolutionary story behind crying? Why- why would leaking water from your face ever be adaptive?

   4. DLDr. Debra Lieberman38:56

      Um, it is. Well, okay, so before we get into this, I just have to say for the record, because it's an important record, we've talked about disgust, but I've also done a lot of work on gratitude and other emotions. And so... But it's my work on gratitude that got me into tears because gratitude, um... And so... See how I'm, I'm kind of changing this, but-

   5. CWChris Williamson39:17

      Yeah.

   6. DLDr. Debra Lieberman39:17

      ... gratitude, it's an important emotion that's responsible for jumpstarting friendships. Uh, it is an emotion that identifies when other people value you, right? So someone does something, uh, that you perceive to be a benefit, you say thank you. You are basically saying, you know, "I, I, I value you for having done that act, and, um, it would be great if you continued to do that act, uh, with the promise that potentially we can form a cooperative relationship downstream."

   7. CWChris Williamson39:45

      Hmm.

   8. DLDr. Debra Lieberman39:46

      But it all hinges on what we call kind of social value. In the, in the article, it's called welfare trade-off ratio, but let's not talk about that. It's really just about how I value you, how I perceive you to value me. And so, uh, 'cause when we're strangers, I don't think you will value me or I don't value you and then you do something nice, it's like, "Oh, I... How do I recognize, how do I positively reinforce that benefic- uh, beneficial behavior, that positive behavior?" And gratitude seems to be the way that I say, "Hey, that was really great. Keep doing that." Um, like, "Thanks so much." Uh, and so... But it all hinges on these internal assessments of value. So, how do we get people to value us? If you are... I promise this is going right straight to tears. And so if I am big and strong and formidable, um, I can just get you to be nice to me, right? Under threat of penalty. Like, I can impose costs. I can beat you up. I can have other people beat you up. I have money. I can pay- I can do all sorts of things. Um, and so if I... I can use anger as one device and strategy in order to get you to, to value me. I can also use gratitude. We've talked about this in the literature as prestige and dominance, but I think it tracks, uh, a little deeper than that in terms of the strategies of how to get other people to value you. But here's the thing. If I'm on the other side, if I am low leveraged, if I, if I'm in a situation in a relationship where someone's imposing costs on me or threatening me, right? How do I... What do I bring to the table? How do I negotiate? Uh, you know, what are, what are, what- what- what's in my arsenal? Um, and so I could either just kind of give in and be exploited and manipulated, um, all the way to the end, or I can try and kind of express that, "You are imposing too much of a cost. You are asking me to deliver too high a benefit to you that's going to start digging into my own interests." And tears is one way that we use to communicate costs, or better yet, the intensity of a particular state. So, um, so tears, I'm mapping it more onto sadness. It's not necessarily just associated with sadness, but, uh, using sadness as an example, the idea that my tears communicate to you, "You are starting to impose a cost on me that is threatening your value in this relationship as well. Uh, it might be worth your, your while to, to stop." (laughs) And so, uh, it's a way... It's the, it's a tool used by the lower leveraged to get other people to stop imposing costs or to start, restart the delivery of benefits. So kids cry, throw tantrums saying, you know, "You're not feeding me enough," or, "You're not feeding me the right things."

   9. CWChris Williamson42:35

      Mm.

   10. DLDr. Debra Lieberman42:35

       You know? 'Cause they're not big and burly, and they can't be like, "You're gonna make me that hot dog!" (laughs) Right? They're just gonna cry, "I don't want mac and cheese!" (laughs) So, um, but they're... So tears can communicate quite a bit. More generally, they communicate value. And so we associate them a lot with the negative value, things that cost us. But they can very much be, be associated with the positive side too. It's indicating the kinds of things that I bene- you know, that I find quite beneficial. So, you know, if someone delivers an, a hugely unexpected gift to you, it's, you know, you could be moved to tears, right? Someone does something and, and, and donates a kidney or does something, you know, life-saving. The idea that you could be moved to tears by such, um, by such behaviors, it's showing and illustrating, um...... it's illustrating a high value. So, it's very much like The Scream, but it's used by the lower leveraged in a, an interaction.

   11. CWChris Williamson43:34

       What does lower leveraged mean?

   12. DLDr. Debra Lieberman43:36

       Means, the person who is less likely to get their way in an interaction. So the, could be the less physically formidable, the lower es- lower socioeconomic status, the less attractive, the, you know, smaller.

   13. CWChris Williamson43:52

       Wow. Okay, okay, I get it. And w-

   14. DLDr. Debra Lieberman43:54

       So women cry more than men. Kids cry more than adults.

   15. CWChris Williamson43:58

       Have you looked at trying to control this stuff? So for instance, let's say that you had a woman in a relationship, but she was socioeconomically more successful than her partner. She was the primary breadwinner. Or you had a mate value discrepancy where the woman was a higher mate value, uh, more famous, more statusful. Uh, so, you know, trying to rebalance these scales.

   16. DLDr. Debra Lieberman44:19

       Oh.

   17. CWChris Williamson44:19

       Do we tend to see that change?

   18. DLDr. Debra Lieberman44:22

       I would, I would s- say you probably absolutely do. Um...

   19. CWChris Williamson44:26

       Wow.

   20. DLDr. Debra Lieberman44:27

       A- and then, and but there's always the fun crocodile tears, right? So those are the fun ones where it is people who use tears because they know what they do. Um, and, uh, so, you know, psychopaths, dark triad people will pull out crocodile tears (laughs) in order to get you to think that they care. Um, and so that's always an interesting, um, feature. But there's a... You can tell. I, I came up with one way to tell. I, this has not been studied. Or at least, I don't think that this has been studied, and I'd love to study this. So, if you've ever cried, like if you're like me, even in a movie, a dark movie theater, if I like start crying, I'll like, I'll like start to stare. So it's like, "Dry up, dry up." (laughs) Don't let anyone see you crying.

   21. CWChris Williamson45:12

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DLDr. Debra Lieberman45:12

       You know? It's like you, you kind of like, you, you hide and you don't want anyone to see you. You don't wanna anyone to see you.

   23. CWChris Williamson45:18

       Mm.

   24. DLDr. Debra Lieberman45:18

       Um, it's kind of like, I, I don't want to be perceived as weak or low leveraged or someone who you can now take advantage of and exploit or anything like that, right? So I, I don't, I don't wanna have lost any ground in any type of, um, uh, leverage, you know, in any relationship. Again, it's not explicit, but it's just like we tend to hide these things. But people who are trying to use their tears for more manipulative purposes will cry and be like, "Don't you s- you see my tears? These are tears because I care." And so I think people who, uh, use crocodile tears need them to be on display.

   25. CWChris Williamson45:51

       Oh, that's so great. Yeah. Allow me to put a billboard up so that my tears-

   26. DLDr. Debra Lieberman45:54

       (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson45:54

       ... can run down the front of it.

   28. DLDr. Debra Lieberman45:56

       That's right.

   29. CWChris Williamson45:56

       But isn't it, isn't it strange that people who are crying and they, w- w- they've got, you know, if this theory holds true-

   30. DLDr. Debra Lieberman46:01

       Yeah.
7. 52:53 – 58:07

   What Happens When No One is Watching

   1. CWChris Williamson52:53

      So, if, if tear are-

   2. DLDr. Debra Lieberman52:56

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson52:57

      ... um, telling another person I value this thing, or you're imposing costs on me and I would like it to stop-

   4. DLDr. Debra Lieberman53:03

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson53:04

      ... uh, why do we cry when we're on our own?

   6. DLDr. Debra Lieberman53:07

      Oh. 'Cause I think that we have, uh, dramas played out in our head all the ti- you know, like, we... Very easy to imagine a whole bunch of stuff. Typically, it's not just, you know, n- nothing sparks us. Usually, there's a thought or some type of sequence of-

   7. CWChris Williamson53:21

      Of course, but who are we crying to?

   8. DLDr. Debra Lieberman53:23

      Oh. I think it's simulating. I, I think there's simulations all the time. It's just, like, you know, haven't you ever, you know, l- you know, laughed? (laughs) Like, I, I work, uh, you know, in my place on my own, and if anyone were ever to watch, like, they'd be like, "She's crazy 'cause she's laughing all the time just by thinking about some of these things." You know, it's hard not to chuckle. And so-

   9. CWChris Williamson53:42

      Yeah.

   10. DLDr. Debra Lieberman53:42

       But what's that all about? It's, like, me thinking about stuff, you know? And so I think that when we think about things, we can absolutely simulate what would be my, what would be my reaction in this particular situation. So, that kind of playing with, uh, possible events that could play out to be prepared for them and so forth.

   11. CWChris Williamson53:59

       Oh, okay. I, I think most people, and me too, I think that sounds a bit surprising because, uh, not that it's not true, but I'm like, "I'm not gaming this out." Like, I don't want to be fucking in a ball of tears on the floor at the moment having just watched this dog come home to... Or this, this soldier come home to his dog after, you know, three years away, and now the dog faints, and now the daughter's there, and, you know... Ew. Um, but I'm not... I'm, I... Is it... I'm, am I confusing the fact that I've seen... That those people are here with me? Is it the fact that my whatever system, crying system, is unable to detect the fact that that's virtual or not? Is it the fact that it's unable to detect the, um, mental imaging that we've given versus a real situation? Is it the fact that our mental situations are just so powerful that it doesn't matter if there's other people around, that we experience them as if it was happening in front of us?

   12. DLDr. Debra Lieberman54:56

       I think, I, I think you have empathy with score one for not being a psychopath. (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson55:01

       Okay. Well, good.

   14. DLDr. Debra Lieberman55:01

       And so there you go. (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson55:02

       I wish I cried less. I wish I, I wish I, I wish I was less of a pussy.

   16. DLDr. Debra Lieberman55:05

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson55:05

       I, my crying threshold is... You know the discussed threshold thing we said before? My crying threshold is e- embarrassingly low. It fucking blows.

   18. DLDr. Debra Lieberman55:13

       That's, that's all right. Listen, empathy is not overrated. And so I would say, you know, I think that first off, TV and story... Uh, we evolved with storytelling. We evolved with people in front of us telling stories about people and about, you know, um, uh, uh, you know, our ancestors and so forth. But I think that when we see them on TV, it's a little confusing to our, our ancestral brains. That's for sure. And so... But hearing about these things and putting yourself in a situation and simulating, I think, is... Or being, you know, showing empathy and putting yourself in the shoes of other people and what, what you would experience, um, because...There are people who don't have that ability, right? So you have people who, uh, you know, people who, uh, psychopaths for instance, who do not have a capacity for empathy and would not cry.

   19. CWChris Williamson56:03

       What about when grief, because some-

   20. DLDr. Debra Lieberman56:05

       Mm.

   21. CWChris Williamson56:05

       ... let's say somebody's passed away.

   22. DLDr. Debra Lieberman56:07

       Mm.

   23. CWChris Williamson56:08

       Who are you crying to? They're gone. What are the tears for?

   24. DLDr. Debra Lieberman56:12

       Well, I think you're showing other people your need state. Um, that's one, one thing. But I, I think a lot of things are going on at that point in time, so being upset and depressed and grieving, the idea that it's, it's a, that it's a loss, um, and typically we would've been around. I mean, there's no such thing as privacy to a, you know, a hunter-gatherer. So, you know, something happens and you would've been around other people and kind of this automatic response of "I am in a need state" would've potentially been, uh, quite beneficial. I, you know, I haven't done... So I, I, I... A lot of this is speculation. Uh, so the, the, the... so just to stay on, you know, terra firma here, I, the paper really was about... I was very curious, researchers who had been studying tears showing that you sh- you, you show subjects emotion, faces displaying various emotions, and if you add tears to some of those emotions, they're easier to recognize. And when I was... so I'm the editor of, uh, the Fields Journal: Evolution & Human Behavior, and so I had one of these papers in front of me, and it struck me, like, there's a lot of research on tears and it hasn't been hooked up with the cognitive side of thing, what's going on internally and what this, uh, signal value is. And it had struck me that no one really thought about is, is tearing an adaptation. Like, what's going on here? Um, and so thinking about when we tear and what might be going on, it seemed to be very much tied to social value, right? So being around people who value us and we are going to try to get them to stop imposing costs or try to elicit more benefits from them. Um, obviously and not... that... I, I talk science speak, but, you know, we, we don't ta-... that's not consciously available to us. We just, we just cry and it has the effects that it does on the people around us.

   25. CWChris Williamson58:06

       Mm.

8. 58:07 – 1:06:30

   Why We Use Tears to Convey Emotions

   1. CWChris Williamson58:07

      Okay. So, positive events.

   2. DLDr. Debra Lieberman58:13

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson58:13

      The reason that we cry at positive events is, like, "This is good. Do more of it." Uh, like an encouraging thing? "This is of value to me and, and, uh, I wouldn't do this ridiculous thing if it wasn't?"

   4. DLDr. Debra Lieberman58:27

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson58:27

      Reliable signal of receptiveness?

   6. DLDr. Debra Lieberman58:31

      Yeah. Uh, you, you, you're marking, "This is of high value to me."

   7. CWChris Williamson58:35

      Hm.

   8. DLDr. Debra Lieberman58:35

      "I perceive the events and what's going on now to regist- be registering in my brain as high value."

   9. CWChris Williamson58:41

      Okay. Why not, why not make our whole body shake? Why not raise our hand in the air and wave it? Why... w-... because crying presumably wasn't... crying is here to lubricate our eyes. It's why crying... the, the... it's why the tear ducts exist, primarily.

   10. DLDr. Debra Lieberman59:00

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson59:00

       Why has our emotional system repurposed that? Why don't we shit ourselves? Like, why don't we...

   12. DLDr. Debra Lieberman59:07

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson59:07

       (laughs) ... why don't we just yell?

   14. DLDr. Debra Lieberman59:09

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson59:09

       Like, why-

   16. DLDr. Debra Lieberman59:10

       I don't know. Well, maybe you do. I don't know. (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson59:14

       Why tears? What is it about the water coming out of the face that is particularly useful for this?

   18. DLDr. Debra Lieberman59:20

       It's front and center, and so it is something that is readily available. It's a really good question, and so this was obviously one of the main questions that our reviewers had, is like, "This... why, why this, why now?" And so one possibility is that it was built off of, um... (sighs) so if you have an onion and you hold it close to your eyes and the acids kind of interact and you start to tear, um, and so the idea is that this is a negative, a negative stimulus. So it's already kind of being associated with there's something negative in the environment, um, that is affecting me. And so that very much could've been the bootstrapping way that another, uh, more negative stuff, uh, could then have been registered by other people. So to the extent that-

   19. CWChris Williamson1:00:04

       Okay.

   20. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:00:04

       ... I mean, to the extent that that was possible, that would've been one possible lineage for how this came online.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:00:12

       Okay. I, I seem to-

   22. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:00:15

       You buy-... you're buying that? (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson1:00:17

       Uh, to a degree. To a degree, I do. Um-

   24. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:00:20

       I don't...

   25. CWChris Williamson1:00:20

       ... I mean, another-

   26. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:00:20

       The answer is I don't know, but the face doesn't-

   27. CWChris Williamson1:00:22

       But another part of it, uh, another part of it is, right, okay, yeah, front and center. Right?

   28. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:00:27

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:00:27

       Here it is. Um, it's very hard to ignore. Uh, it is, for most people, I think it would take a bit of... even me with my wimpy cry threshold, takes a bit of work for me to get it going. So to m-... usually, for most people, post-... apart from the psychopaths, a, a pretty reliable signal of authenticity. So it's, uh, not-

   30. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:00:48

       Mm-hmm.
9. 1:06:30 – 1:08:29

   Where to Find Debra

   1. CWChris Williamson1:06:30

      So cool.

   2. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:06:30

      It's fun stuff.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:06:30

      Deb Lieberman, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, you're fantastic. You're part of this weird, like, council, mason, ma- masonic, like, group of cool-

   4. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:06:42

      Keep going. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson1:06:42

      ... women doing evolutionary psychology.

   6. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:06:44

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson1:06:45

      And everybody needs to follow you. And, uh, I think your work's, I think your work's wonderful. And, um, I enjoyed speaking with you at HBESS. And, uh, I think that you need to keep doing more stuff. So where should people go if they wanna check out all of your fun, cool work about incest?

   8. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:06:59

      Um, well actually, on the Center for Evolutionary Psychology is a whole, uh, list of, of a great set of papers, not only on kinship, inbreeding avoidance, altruism, but also morality, um, and anger and cooperation and coalitional psychology. So Center for Evolutionary Psychology is where I would, uh, direct everyone. Um, and also you can read about it in the textbook that is hopefully forthcoming at th- you know, at the end of '26, beginning of '27. Um, and if, if you will permit me just to say one thing, as an academic and the frustration that I often hear a lot of people who want to get access to these things is that they're hit with these paywalls. And so one, my business venture with a partner, the problem we're solving is allowing people to get access to articles, not only news but journal articles, uh, that are currently held behind paywalls for subscription but allowing people to get just the one article they want when they want it. So, that's what I'm up to.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:07:56

      When's that available? Can I get that now?

   10. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:07:59

       Um, check in app store soon. Um, MediaBite.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:08:02

       MediaBite.

   12. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:08:02

       We are on it.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:08:04

       Okay. When do you think it'll be launched? When it'll be li-

   14. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:08:06

       Uh, hopefully late '26.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:08:08

       Okay. Well, hurry up 'cause I need that. Uh, Deb, you're great. Keep doing your thing.

   16. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:08:14

       Thank you. You too. Be well.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:08:15

       All right.

   18. DLDr. Debra Lieberman1:08:15

       This is great.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:08:17

       Congratulations. You made it to the end of an episode. Your brain has not been completely destroyed by the internet just yet. Here's another one that you should watch. Go on.

Episode duration: 1:08:29