Why Is Everyone So Emotionally Fragile? - Whitney Cummings

1. 0:00 – 10:41

   What Has Changed Since Becoming a Mother?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      What has changed since becoming a mother?

   2. WCWhitney Cummings0:03

      I stopped getting Botox.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:05

      Okay. Is that-

   4. WCWhitney Cummings0:06

      (laughs) That's the main headline.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:07

      ... that's the big thing?

   6. WCWhitney Cummings0:08

      Stop smoking weed. Stop getting Botox.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:10

      Okay.

   8. WCWhitney Cummings0:10

      You know, a lot of things. Um, I start with the sort of, you know, more facetious ones, but I'm obviously off birth control, you know. After having a kid I went off, and I can't believe how much clearer I am, less emotional I am, less judgmental I am, uh, less attracted to gay men I am. Uh, and then I was like, "Okay, what else am I putting in my body?" You know, 'cause as soon as you have a baby in utero, you care about your own health, you know? And then I'm like, "I'm not gonna drink tap water anymore." Instead of spending money on stupid shoes that are gonna give me blisters, why don't I spend it on glass bottle water? Whatever, you know? And in trying to care for my son and protect him from microplastics and chemicals and stuff, I accidentally took care of myself, and cannot believe how much better I felt. And I spend so much time now thinking of like when I see my girlfriends acting crazy or women acting crazy, I'm like, "Maybe Amber Heard just wore too much deodorant."

   9. CWChris Williamson1:00

      (laughs)

   10. WCWhitney Cummings1:00

       Do we... (laughs) Maybe we need to get, we need to get Rose McGowan off tap water. You know, like what are all the chemicals? And I know this is very in the zeitgeist right now. You talk about it, Hugh Grant talks about it, there's people that actually know what they're talking about. But in my own, you know, research on myself, I'm like, I cannot believe how many chemicals I was putting in my body before, and how much better I feel now that I'm not. The Botox thing was more of a, you know, you can't get Botox when you're pregnant. And once I was pregnant, I couldn't believe how much better I was all of a sudden at communicating, and I was like, "Oh, this must just be 'cause I'm compassionate now, and it's hormonal, and like I'm, I'm connecting with people more." But we're designed to read micro-expressions, and I look at all my past toxic relationships where we had, like, trouble communicating or, you know, I expected the person to read my mind or just, like, know what I meant on my face or something, and they... (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson1:50

       Meanwhile you've got a stone face.

   12. WCWhitney Cummings1:51

       I know, I'm just like, like, "No, what do you mean? Everything's fine." Like, I just am now like women are, and men I think, are having a harder time communicating than ever, and we're just adding more and more things to make it more and more difficult. (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson2:02

       Like Botox that literally stops you from having facial expressions.

   14. WCWhitney Cummings2:05

       Correct, correct. And so I was like, "Let me just stop," because also, look, I lasered my entire body in my 20s. I have no pubes, I have no nothing. Like, if I don't have any wrinkles either, I'm just gonna be attracting pedophiles, so why don't I ju-

   15. CWChris Williamson2:19

       (laughs)

   16. WCWhitney Cummings2:20

       ... why... Like, also what kind of person wants to be with a woman with no pubes and no wrinkles? Like that's... I think Epstein Island's closed, but like, I, you know, I don't know. The more I think about this, the more I'm like, I'm just deciding to become the most authentic person I... Even if it's someone that I'm not 100% proud of all the time, so that I don't attract the wrong person. I think this is something that, you know, I realized, is that we put on this thing to try to attract as many people as we can, but we might attract the wrong person, you know?

   17. CWChris Williamson2:48

       Mm-hmm.

   18. WCWhitney Cummings2:49

       Like the guy that wants a woman with, like, no wrinkles, like do I even wanna be with that guy, you know? Um, I stopped... I mean, I'm on your show, so I had to wear a little makeup.

   19. CWChris Williamson2:56

       Mm.

   20. WCWhitney Cummings2:56

       I don't want the comment section to be too brutal.

   21. CWChris Williamson2:58

       Mm.

   22. WCWhitney Cummings2:59

       Um, but I stopped wearing so much makeup, you know, which I always thought like, "Oh my God, this is gonna make a man attracted to me." But it's gonna maybe make the wrong man attracted to me. Um, so a lot of that. Um, I also have this weird obsession with how into me men were when I was pregnant. It made me (laughs) like love men in this weird way. Um, I just saw a different side of men when I was pregnant, and I think this thing of, you know, men don't want, you know, don't have like care-taking and... Whatever it is, like whatever bullshit I got from my mom programming me 'cause I came from a lot of bad divorce, and I was-

   23. CWChris Williamson3:38

       Mm.

   24. WCWhitney Cummings3:38

       ... you know, fed this narrative that my dad was this monster, and this like... You know. They were both, you know, had a lot of work to do. But I just, and I had a son, you know? And once you see a little baby boy and you like, they start out so innocent, you're like, "How do we get from this, you know-

   25. CWChris Williamson3:55

       Mm.

   26. WCWhitney Cummings3:55

       ... to such a toxic place?" And I'm fascinated.

   27. CWChris Williamson3:57

       It feels like even when we were speaking last time, you were kind of in the middle of softening up a lot. And maybe this is part of a big arc. You said l- last time, you know, you'd spent two decades really grinding, "I needed to kind of prove to myself, and then realize that all of the proof that I gave to myself was for everybody else, and that I actually hadn't changed anything internally," and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

   28. WCWhitney Cummings4:15

       Blah, blah, blah. I mean, do we ha- I mean, blah, blah, blah? That is a pretty good impression of me, actually.

   29. CWChris Williamson4:19

       (laughs) It's literally the sound of your fucking thing, isn't it?

   30. WCWhitney Cummings4:23

       (laughs) Buh, buh, buh.
2. 10:41 – 14:02

   The Benefit of Not Thinking About Yourself

   1. WCWhitney Cummings10:41

   2. CWChris Williamson10:41

      So going back to kind of what changed from a role perspective, this sort of softening thing, obviously you made lifestyle changes, but was there this, you know, existential personality, my position in the world has changed, I was learning about... What's that idea, like the, the obsession of self or something that you talked about?

   3. WCWhitney Cummings11:03

      Well, yeah. The narcissism, uh, you know, of what I do. I just wanted to be a standup comedian for a living, I wanna make people laugh, and then, you know, the, you know, business evolves and all of a sudden we're like, "Hey guys, hey guys," and we're, it's just me, me, me all the time. And I realized, like I was like, "Am I... How is my self-esteem getting lower? I'm getting everything I want, I'm paying my bills, I've achieved my goals. Like, how is my self-worth falling?" Is this from the comment section? Is it... I'm, turns out I'm just thinking about myself way too much.

   4. CWChris Williamson11:32

      Mm.

   5. WCWhitney Cummings11:32

      I actually like myself when I only think about myself like an hour a day, but when I think about myself 24 hours a day, that's when my self-esteem plummets. So now having a kid, it's such a joy to not have to think about myself so much. I also, this is gonna get me in trouble, fine, that's my brand. I do believe it's okay to say women are caretakers by nature.

   6. CWChris Williamson11:56

      Mm.

   7. WCWhitney Cummings11:56

      We're good at it. And I think that when we don't caretake children, I'm not saying every woman needs to have a child, I know plenty of women that I hope never have children.

   8. CWChris Williamson12:04

      (laughs)

   9. WCWhitney Cummings12:05

      You guys pushing this narrative women need to have kids, you've seen 'em, right?

   10. CWChris Williamson12:09

       Some. Some. Some.

   11. WCWhitney Cummings12:10

       (laughs) Do you want all of them having kids?

   12. CWChris Williamson12:12

       Some need-

   13. WCWhitney Cummings12:12

       You and Ilan and all these guys saying, like, have more children. I mean, I know a lot of women that I'm like, "Can someone tie their tubes please? I'm begging."

   14. CWChris Williamson12:19

       Well, I mean, people sort of point to Kamala Harris and say, "Look at the sort of, like, childless cat lady thing."

   15. WCWhitney Cummings12:25

       Right.

   16. CWChris Williamson12:26

       I mean, do you want that screech as a fucking child growing up-

   17. WCWhitney Cummings12:30

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson12:30

       ... in the home?

   19. WCWhitney Cummings12:31

       Yeah. Do you want a kid being told they're a different ethnicity every day? That would be-

   20. CWChris Williamson12:35

       (laughs)

   21. WCWhitney Cummings12:35

       ... very confusing. Okay. I grew up in an alcoholic home. I don't wish that on anyone. (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson12:39

       Yeah.

   23. WCWhitney Cummings12:39

       I'm not saying she's an alcoholic. I don't know. But those speeches are wild. Um, and, uh, for me, I found myself mothering adults, groups of people, even concepts. You know? I'm not attacking, attacking the left or right. It's more I see women that are, identify as liberal, progressive, and they don't have kids, and I wonder if that, "We need to save this minority group. We need to save Ukraine. We need to save Gaza. We need to s-"

   24. CWChris Williamson13:08

       It's a surrogate child.

   25. WCWhitney Cummings13:09

       Kind of.

   26. CWChris Williamson13:10

       Hmm.

   27. WCWhitney Cummings13:11

       You know?

   28. CWChris Williamson13:11

       That's really interesting.

   29. WCWhitney Cummings13:12

       'Cause now that I have a son, I go, "You know what? I can just make this the best man I can." You know what I mean? This I can control. I'm not gonna be able to clean up Gaza, Israel. I'm not gonna fix Hamas with a tweet or a march or what, but I can control this, and this might make a difference actually.

   30. CWChris Williamson13:29

       I'd love to see the constitution of th- the people tweeting about stuff, supporting things, going out in protest, and I would love to see how many of them have got kids.
3. 14:02 – 23:06

   How Having a Son Changes Your View on Men

   1. WCWhitney Cummings14:02

      mom.

   2. CWChris Williamson14:02

      Has it changed your relationship to men, your understanding of males generally now that you've kind of got one on your side?

   3. WCWhitney Cummings14:09

      Yes. Of course. You know, um, look, the, I won't even, the word feminism has gotten, is so ridiculous at this point, but I am working on a bit about how it's impossible to be a feminist and a boy mom.

   4. CWChris Williamson14:19

      (laughs)

   5. WCWhitney Cummings14:19

      'Cause it's like, I believe that women, you know, do have horrible things happen to them but also they lie. Uh, and, but that's also about equality. It's like you can't say, "I'm a feminist. Men and women should be equal." Then it's like, okay, by that, women are just as destructive, just as conniving, just as-

   6. CWChris Williamson14:36

      Right.

   7. WCWhitney Cummings14:36

      ... you know, uh, brutal, just a- you know. So, I think for me, I do spend a lot of time going like, "This will be interesting. Am I gonna have to teach my son about consent? Like, what is this gonna look like?" And I, I very much less so see things about men versus women now, and it's just more good versus evil. Uh, and I don't think it's men versus women anymore. I think it's good men and good women versus bad men and bad women.

   8. CWChris Williamson15:01

      Mm.

   9. WCWhitney Cummings15:02

      If that makes any sense.

   10. CWChris Williamson15:03

       Mm-hmm.

   11. WCWhitney Cummings15:03

       You know, but also just seeing h- sorry, I'm just coming in hot with this. I think that the wildest part was deciding whether or not to circumcise my son. That's, you know, and I did defer to his dad on it, um, because I just, that felt like the right thing to do.

   12. CWChris Williamson15:19

       As an English person, this is not something that we really have to deal with. So, I think, I, I mean, I, I could probably pull up the stats. I would guess somewhere in the region of single digit percent guys that aren't Jewish in the UK-

   13. WCWhitney Cummings15:32

       Hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson15:33

       ... would be circumcised, and I'm gonna guess that it's maybe not far off the inverse here in America.

   15. WCWhitney Cummings15:38

       In the United States, it's automa- it's automatic at the hospital. Like, you have to actively say, "I don't-"

   16. CWChris Williamson15:43

       Cut the umbilical cord. Lose the fucking-

   17. WCWhitney Cummings15:45

       Uh, ex- truly, that's it.

   18. CWChris Williamson15:46

       Yeah.

   19. WCWhitney Cummings15:46

       I mean, it's just imagine-

   20. CWChris Williamson15:47

       You can double it up with just one extra long pair of scissors.

   21. WCWhitney Cummings15:49

       Well, I did have to have that too. I was kinda circumcised (laughs) during birth. That's a different conversation for another day. But I, uh, I, I mean, if that was reversed, how insane would that be?

   22. CWChris Williamson15:59

       Yeah.

   23. WCWhitney Cummings15:59

       You know? And, you know, Rogan talks about it a lot, and, you know, he, I won't, you know, plagiarize him here, but, I mean, he really does think of it as mutilation, and I, I looked at all these, like, studies which again, look, whoever puts their uncircumcised baby in a study, I already have questions about this study. It's like, (laughs) it's like these stu- I, (laughs) you know.

   24. CWChris Williamson16:17

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

   25. WCWhitney Cummings16:17

       We do this over text too, but it's like, you know, when they're like, "You know, women mature faster than men." I'm like, "W- who needed to do this study?" Who was like, "You guys, let's do a study about how young girls are more mature." Like, did Epstein fund this study? Let's be honest. You know, like, there's, what's the new thing of how, um, babies' taints are shrinking because of microplastics?

   26. CWChris Williamson16:36

       Right. Okay. I thought that, I thought s-

   27. WCWhitney Cummings16:38

       Who did this study? Who was measuring taints? What are we doing?

   28. CWChris Williamson16:41

       I looked at, I looked at one... So yeah, the, uh, you call it taint?

   29. WCWhitney Cummings16:45

       The, between your-

   30. CWChris Williamson16:46

       Yeah. The-
4. 23:06 – 35:22

   Do Women Gossip About Sex More Than Men?

   1. CWChris Williamson23:06

      tell you what I've been thinking about a bit recently? How much more women gossip about sex and intimate sort of sex stuff with their friends than guys do. I think that women presume that guys are super open about, you know, "And then I turned her over, and I did this, and she was like, 'Ah.'"

   2. WCWhitney Cummings23:24

      That's gay. It's gay.

   3. CWChris Williamson23:24

      And I was like, "Yeah."

   4. WCWhitney Cummings23:25

      That's gay.

   5. CWChris Williamson23:25

      And there is... I have never had... I mean, maybe, maybe when you first start having sex-

   6. WCWhitney Cummings23:31

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson23:31

      ... and you're, like, like, 19 or some shit, and, like, everybody in your friend group is kind of just ex- "Is this normal to do that thing?" And, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do that too." But you get to 22 or whatever as a guy, and no one is talking about that.

   8. WCWhitney Cummings23:46

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson23:46

      No one's asking their friend over a beer what him and his girlfriend or one-night stand get up to in the bedroom.

   10. WCWhitney Cummings23:56

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson23:56

       It is, uh, it makes me, it makes my fucking toes curl to think about that. And-

   12. WCWhitney Cummings24:00

       'Cause then you're just imagining your friend having sex which is-

   13. CWChris Williamson24:02

       Kind of. It seems, it seems it, it sort of, uh, like, a bit of an invasion of privacy. You're basically asking to kind of imagine your mate's girlfriend doing that. It's a little bit crossing the boundary with him too.

   14. WCWhitney Cummings24:15

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson24:15

       Like, "What is it, you're asking this because you wanna imagine me and what I'm doing?" And then, I don't know, there's just something a bit sort of, "Fucking no," like, "That's your area."

   16. WCWhitney Cummings24:22

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson24:23

       I don't think that's the same with-Girls.

   18. WCWhitney Cummings24:25

       I'm maybe an anomaly because a couple things. For me, my biggest turn-on in a relationship is respecting the person. And if I'm-

   19. CWChris Williamson24:34

       Fucking gay turn-on.

   20. WCWhitney Cummings24:35

       (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson24:38

       Such a shit turn-on.

   22. WCWhitney Cummings24:40

       Why? Okay.

   23. CWChris Williamson24:40

       Who wants to be respected?

   24. WCWhitney Cummings24:41

       Okay, so if I say money-

   25. CWChris Williamson24:42

       Choke me while you respect me.

   26. WCWhitney Cummings24:43

       If I say money, I'm disgusting. If I say a car, I'm disgusting. If I say a good job, I'm disgusting. But if I say I respect him, I'm an idiot.

   27. CWChris Williamson24:51

       A hand or a good set of shoulders? I don't know.

   28. WCWhitney Cummings24:54

       No. Well, I respect that, if you put time and energy into respecting yourself kinda thing.

   29. CWChris Williamson24:57

       All right. Okay.

   30. WCWhitney Cummings24:58

       But (laughs) but I always think that whenever I talk to my guy friends and girlfriends, if you're gossiping about your person with other people, you might not respect that person.
5. 35:22 – 41:56

   The Danger of Co-dependence

   1. WCWhitney Cummings35:22

   2. CWChris Williamson35:22

      Last time that we were together, you told me to do equine therapy and then I went and did it and I called it... What'd I call it? Horse meditation.

   3. WCWhitney Cummings35:31

      Okay.

   4. CWChris Williamson35:31

      And the lady didn't like, the woman that was taking it was, it would, she had mixed opinions on that. But (clears throat) my story for the-

   5. WCWhitney Cummings35:36

      They'll call it whores meditation.

   6. CWChris Williamson35:38

      Whores meditation.

   7. WCWhitney Cummings35:39

      (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson35:39

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what hap-

   9. WCWhitney Cummings35:40

      Don't say it in an English accent.

   10. CWChris Williamson35:41

       It's fine.

   11. WCWhitney Cummings35:41

       That's why she was grumpy.

   12. CWChris Williamson35:42

       It's what happens with everyone, everyone outside of everyone doing whores meditation.

   13. WCWhitney Cummings35:46

       (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson35:46

       And, uh, yeah, I- I, that was really interesting 'cause we, reflecting on what it is that you want from an animal, what it is that you need from somebody else, and I started going down a co-dependency learning rabbit hole after we spoke last time. I think you suggested a couple of books to me, which I'm still partway through. Uh, but can you explain, co-dependency seems to be this thing that kind of lurks below the surface for most people, uh, maybe everybody's got some degree of it, and then some people it's the driving force that's in their life, and the first time that I'd ever heard of it was when I spoke to you, and it seems kind of important.

   15. WCWhitney Cummings36:19

       Can you please just promise me that you'll stop me if I'm rambling or if I'm not being clear?

   16. CWChris Williamson36:24

       All the time.

   17. WCWhitney Cummings36:25

       Okay. So co-dependence, I like a good definition, I live for a good platitude aphorism. Um, co-dependence, the definition that I like to work with is the inability to tolerate the discomfort of others, or the perceived discomfort, right? 'Cause we might just be projecting. Um, my specific co-dependence came from at an early age feeling like I need to take care of the feelings of the adults, of I need to behave a certain way to get someone to act like this. Ultimately, it is, um, the same way an alcoholic, you know, is alcohol makes their life unmanageable, right? An addiction is, you know, continuing to do something despite your life becoming unmanageable. Porn making your life unmanageable, you might be a sex addict. Alcohol making your life unmanageable, you can still drink alcohol, but if you can make it to work the next day...Not unmanageable. If you can't make it to work the next day, unmanageable, right? Addiction, continuing to do the same behavior despite negative consequences, right? So in, you know, AA, you're addicted to alcohol. In NA, you're addicted to narcotics. In Al-Anon, ACA, you're addicted to perfectionism, people-pleasing, shape-shifting to try to control other people's behavior. Um, uh, you know, self-deprivation is another, uh, part of codependence. So codependent we hear a lot, like, sometimes it just sounds like you spend a lot of time with a person, that's not necessarily codependent. Code- there's codependent and interdependent, right? And codependent is you're getting your emotional needs met through another person, whereas interdependent means you're getting your own emotional needs met internally. So addiction being I'm getting my internal needs met with external things, drugs, sex, and with us, it's other people. It's almost like being addicted to a person. Love addiction is a very close concentric circle, but that's kind of another thing. So if you and I are dating and we're codependent, or you and I are just friends and we're codependent, it is like, you send me a text, I have to, I just have to respond right away. There's a fear that my behavior is gonna make you uncomfortable or that my f- behavior is gonna make you leave me, abandon me, judge me, right? So ultimately, it becomes an addiction to control, trying to control someone else's perceptions, behaviors, addictions, choices, right?

   18. CWChris Williamson38:30

       What's the usual root cause? Or what are the most common root causes?

   19. WCWhitney Cummings38:36

       A lot of things. Um, uh, in my experience, you know, growing up in a home where the adults didn't get their emotional needs met internally, so e- you know, they, they were checking out, they were drinking, they were using, they were fighting something else, and then the child as a result goes, "I need to try to fix this." We're parentified children, we tend to be. So we had to be adults too young, right? So instead of just being kids, we had to be like, "Mom and Dad are fighting. What if I get good grades? What if I just do great in basketball? What if I just clean this thing?" Or for me, there was also a lot of neglect, and there was a lot of, "I'm on my own," right? "No one's gonna take care of me. I can't trust anybody. I just need to..." You know? And this belief that your behavior can control someone else's behavior. And it's magical thinking, and it comes from, uh, uh, not having, like, consistency, not having, um, people that were fair around you. Um, you know, 'cause alcoholism we say, like, if you grow up in an alcoholic home, many times you end up being a codependent, but alcoholism is defined... You know, look, in order for alcoholism to be present, alcohol doesn't have to be present. So when you go through and do an inventory in this particular program, which if you're codependent you don't necessarily have to do this whole program, it is just kind of like a school for your brain. It's just like a way to re-parent yourself and have mature adult, uh, expectations of people and yourself. So, you know, all of the defense mechanisms that you developed as a child to survive your family system, and by survive it doesn't mean it was life or death, you know? It might just been on Christmas, your mom puts a ton of pressure on everybody and everything has to be perfect, and every, the table is set perfectly. That's a form of, like, alcoholism, this workaholism, you know, obsession with perfectionism, if you grew up around that. It's a way to sort of re-parent yourself so that you are not acting from the point of view of your inner child, uh, who is trying to solve everybody else's problems, manage everybody else, caretake other people, you know, get your self-esteem from, uh, your productivity, right, and your usefulness to others. That's a big one, you know? Is like, "I need to rescue everyone. I need to save everyone." We've all been in those relationships where you, like, need to save them, you need to rescue them, and then you resent them so much, you know? So codependence also has this sort of like, you know, y- y- you think you're just really nice. You think you're just like, you know, being a great person. You think you're just like this angel that's rescuing people. But what, what you're really doing when you're gonna rescue a girl, say, you know, "This girl, she doesn't have her bills paid. She's in a bad relationship. She's got bad credit." You're, I mean, essentially what you're saying is, like, "You wouldn't be able to survive without me. You couldn't do this without me." Um, so ultimately, a lot of times, our, our, uh, help is coming from a place of arrogance and playing God, um, and trying to change people, trying to fix people, um-

   20. CWChris Williamson41:07

       Desperation, too, I'm gonna guess, too.

   21. WCWhitney Cummings41:09

       (laughs) And the three Ms, mothering, mi- micromardering. I'm sorry, mothering, micromanaging, and martyring. You know, those three things. Do you get your self-esteem from being useful to other people, from rescuing other people? Um, where are you in terms of your ability to like yourself without other people's approval? Does your mood, uh, is it dictated by other people's perception of you, your achievements? You know, it's, it's a tricky one.

   22. CWChris Williamson41:37

       Mm-hmm.

   23. WCWhitney Cummings41:37

       Because it's something that, it's the only, quote, "addiction" that you get rewarded for, you know? It's, if you're a drunk and you act shitty at a bar, they kick you out. If you're codependent, you're like, "No, I'm gonna drive him home. I got him. I'm gonna take him home, and then I'm gonna take him to rehab, and then I'm gonna get him sober, and then I'm gonna..." You know, and it's like, well, you're this hero. But I might have-

6. 41:56 – 50:01

   Balancing Empathy & Selfishness

   1. WCWhitney Cummings41:56

   2. CWChris Williamson41:56

      So it's got the elements of s- being charitable, being caring, being sensitive.

   3. WCWhitney Cummings42:00

      But that's also selfish sometimes.

   4. CWChris Williamson42:02

      Well, I guess it depends on where the compulsion's coming from. Like, it's so fascinating because all of these things, uh, the, the dose kind of is the poison here. The-

   5. WCWhitney Cummings42:10

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson42:11

      ... uh, like, doing something nice for somebody else, caring about somebody else, having empathy, i- are we really supposed to expect that we're, we would be able to detach our own self-esteem from the opinions of other people? We're a social species.

   7. WCWhitney Cummings42:23

      Right.

   8. CWChris Williamson42:23

      The, you know, you should care about your opinion of you more than you care about other people's opinions of you.

   9. WCWhitney Cummings42:28

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson42:28

       But assuming that you're ever going to not be able to care about other people's opinions of you, I think-

   11. WCWhitney Cummings42:31

       Sure.

   12. CWChris Williamson42:32

       ... is, i- i- it's not gonna happen. Maybe there's some, you know, one in 1000 Michael Malice anarchists, you know, middle finger type people that can go and do that.

   13. WCWhitney Cummings42:39

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson42:40

       But I think they're outliers. Uh, the problem being, where is this coming from?

   15. WCWhitney Cummings42:44

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson42:44

       And it seems to me it's the drive, it's this need, "If I do this, then I will be wanted, needed, accepted, validated by the world, not abandoned."

   17. WCWhitney Cummings42:54

       And this is why it's so tricky, because the difference between kindness and codependence is the motive. So if I drive you to the airport because I'm like, "Well, I want Chris to like me 'cause I want him to put me on his stories, and I want him to tell other people that I'm cool," and I'm trying to control, trying to make myself feel safe, and I'm using you.Right? I'm, that's dehumanizing you. But if I drive you to the airport 'cause we're friends and I wanna talk to you and I wanna hang out with you, and you owe me nothing in return and I'm not keeping score, that's just friendship, and that's just service, and that's kindness.

   18. CWChris Williamson43:23

       Mm-hmm.

   19. WCWhitney Cummings43:23

       But it's one of those things where it's like other people can see if you're addicted to drugs, other peop- But in codependency, you have to fucking do it yourself.

   20. CWChris Williamson43:29

       Oh, interesting.

   21. WCWhitney Cummings43:29

       You have to hold yourself accountable, you know?

   22. CWChris Williamson43:31

       Mm-hmm.

   23. WCWhitney Cummings43:32

       Because ostensibly, I might l- look like the nicest person in the world, but a lot of times if I'm over-gifting, like I brought you a gift and I don't know if I'm gonna give it to you.

   24. CWChris Williamson43:39

       Hm.

   25. WCWhitney Cummings43:39

       Like, I'm trying to decide if I should give it to you. This is a real thing. This is where codependent, 'cause I don't want you, I don't wanna make our relationship transactional all of a sudden.

   26. CWChris Williamson43:45

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   27. WCWhitney Cummings43:45

       Do you know what I mean? And I don't want you to be like, "Well now I have to give her something." It depends, you know, am I gonna keep score? Uh, when someone's over-gifting, am I doing it to make you owe me? Am I e- are we entering in some kind of toxic contract where I've given you this thing and n- you know, it's ac- it's really interesting, the pro-

   28. CWChris Williamson44:01

       Over the span of about a year, I tried pretty much every greens drink that I could find, trying to work out which one was best, and I came across AG1 and I've stuck with it for over three years because it's the best. It's the most comprehensive, it's the most highly tested, and the most rigorously formulated. AG1 genuinely care about holistic health, which is why I've got my mom to use it, I've got my dad to use it, and tons of my friends as well. And if I found something better, I would switch, but I haven't, which is why I still use it. There is a 90-day money back guarantee, so if you're unsure about trying it, you can buy it completely risk-free, try it for a full three-month period, and if you don't like it, they will give you your money back. So, if you want to replace your multivitamin and more, start with AG1. Right now you can get a year's free supply of vitamin D3 and K2, five free AG1 travel packs, and a 90-day money back guarantee by going through the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. Does this mean that a lot of the time if you're unwinding your codependence that you're actually going to become a worse person in terms of your actions before you become a better person again?

   29. WCWhitney Cummings45:09

       I think you'll become a worse person to, uh, people that n- want to use you, and you will become a better person to healthy, balanced people. So when you get healthy, the sick get angry. So when you start, you know, taking care of yourself, when you start putting yourself first, when you start giving 50% in a relationship instead of 90/10-

   30. CWChris Williamson45:27

       Hm.
7. 50:01 – 1:01:27

   How Co-dependency Shows Up in Life

   1. CWChris Williamson50:01

      that this can manifest in people's lives that they might not realize?

   2. WCWhitney Cummings50:06

      When you become a boss and you can't not be friends with your employees, or I see a lot of, like, HR issues and a lot of toxic work environments, and I'm like, "That's co-dependence." First of all, Johnny Depp/Amber Heard, I was like, "That's all co-dependent shit." You know? Um, little things, like you hire someone 'cause you're doing them a favor. You do a favor for someone. When does that go well? You do a favor for them. You give them a job. "Okay, I'll mentor you." And then all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, God. You're, you're not right for this, right? And now I'm gonna help you, and now we're hang out, now we're friends. Now you want more because I... so, you, now you're entitled. Like, I enabled this situation." You know? I think hiring, it gets very tricky. Um, self-deprivation. I mean, co-dependents tend to be the people that don't go to doctors. Forget we live in America and it's a fortune to go to a doctor, but, like, not taking care of yourself. You know, before I came to program, like, I wasn't consistently flossing. I wasn't getting my vision checked. Like, I wasn't... I had chronic migraines. It can really, like, manifest in your health as well. You know? Um, I wasn't, uh, uh, sitting down reading. I wasn't stretching. Like, I would work out because I'm-

   3. CWChris Williamson51:17

      Just not much self-care.

   4. WCWhitney Cummings51:19

      I mean, if any. It's like a, it's, it's sort of a... Yeah. Self-harm in a way. Um, if you're the person where before people come over, you're like, "I have to clean up, and I have to... Everything has to be perfect." It's like, so are you friends with people that if all the dishes weren't clean, they'd be like, "Never mind"? You know what I mean? And what you're doing is you're implying that everyone is shallow as you maybe. Like, would you judge someone for that? Ultimately, you do. It is a very judgmental kind of thing-

   5. CWChris Williamson51:45

      Mm-hmm.

   6. WCWhitney Cummings51:45

      ... 'cause you're assuming everybody else wouldn't accept you if you weren't perfect.

   7. CWChris Williamson51:49

      And that they care enough.

   8. WCWhitney Cummings51:51

      And the arrogance, yes. And the arrogance of thinking there is such a thing as perfection. My thing was perfection. You just have to be perfect at all times. And then it'd be like, would hurt even more when someone didn't want me or rejected me 'cause it's like, "Well, I'm perfect. I can't get any..." You know? But that's not how things work, right? And I think that, um... Hold on. I'm trying. I'm so overwhelmed because this is such a big topic-

   9. CWChris Williamson52:15

      (laughs)

   10. WCWhitney Cummings52:15

       ... and the pressure to talk about it and get it all in without being boring 'cause-

   11. CWChris Williamson52:18

       I think you're doing a great job.

   12. WCWhitney Cummings52:19

       ... my brain just goes like, "Don't be boring. Don't be boring." Um-

   13. CWChris Williamson52:21

       You're doing a great job.

   14. WCWhitney Cummings52:22

       But ultimately, a big part of what it is is making sure you stay a victim, okay? So I'm gonna be so nice to you and give you so many presents and do so many amazing, martyry things for you that you can never requite them, and Chris doesn't appreciate me.

   15. CWChris Williamson52:43

       Mm-hmm.

   16. WCWhitney Cummings52:43

       I love... It's the people that get out of relationships and go, "My problem was I just love too much." Stop doing it for them then, you know? You're doing 90% instead of 50%, so relationships should be 50/50. So, I'm gonna do s-... That's the trick about the trad wife thing and the, you know, is if I'm... "It doesn't count if I make you dinner and clean your shoes and do your laundry, and da da da da." Well, how come you... "Oh, and you're gonna say this, and you're gonna do... Oh, you're gonna text that person at, you know, 10:00 PM, and I made dinner?" That's co-dependence, right? Because I'm being so nice that the score is always off.

   17. CWChris Williamson53:15

       It's a bargaining chip. You're keeping tally.

   18. WCWhitney Cummings53:18

       And I always feel unappreciated, and I get to recreate the childhood circumstances or whatever fe- familiar vibe of being a victim. And I see this glamorization of victims these days, and not true victims, but people that think, like, "If I'm a victim, I'm interesting, or I need to be a victim because that's..." I don't know. I don't... My nightmare is to be pitied. Um, you know, I think before, I really valued being a martyr. I thought it meant you were strong. I thought it meant you were selfless, you know? I thought that was, like, life's purpose. And then I realized, like, I'm not gonna save anyone or rescue anyone or be any value to anyone if I'm sick all the time and doing it out of obligation. I wouldn't... And it took g- you know, going into recovery to go, like, "I would never want someone to hang out with me or come to my birthday or drive me whatever 'cause they thought they had to." Like, how embarrassing. I would never want someone to stay with me and be like, "I know this isn't gonna work out, but I don't wanna break her heart and stay with me." How embarrassing, you know? So it's kind of a-

   19. CWChris Williamson54:17

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   20. WCWhitney Cummings54:18

       ... a selfishness that, because you don't want to feel bad or for the other person to think you're a bad person, and I think a big part of success these days is, like, you know, the linear relationship with the ability to have uncomfortable conversations and to be able to say no. And if people don't like you, not seeing it as they don't like me, seeing it as, like, I've been rerouted to a different group of people that can handle directness. These people are just too sensitive to be in my life 'cause I grew up around very sensitive people.

   21. CWChris Williamson54:45

       Mm-hmm.

   22. WCWhitney Cummings54:45

       A mom that cried, you know, like, stuff like that. When you see that, you're like, "The last thing I wanna do is make someone cry or make someone s- upset."

   23. CWChris Williamson54:51

       Make my needs known, make a demand of somebody.

   24. WCWhitney Cummings54:54

       I'm needless, wantless. The idea of, like... People that apologize all the time. "Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry." People that can't be direct. You know, when someone gets off the phone with me, it drives me nuts 'cause it's so co-dependent when someone's like, "All right. Well, I guess, um, I'll let you get back to that." I'm like, "Can you just say you have to go? I'll be fine." You're implying that I can't handle someone getting off the phone, you know? But this kind of, we live in this thing now where everyone's just, like, uh, so afraid to hurt someone else's feelings.

   25. CWChris Williamson55:17

       Somebody else's emotional state is my responsibility.

   26. WCWhitney Cummings55:19

       A hundred years ago, we were fighting each other in fields. Like, how did we get to this?

   27. CWChris Williamson55:22

       Yeah. I... The funniest, uh, Petri dish for this to happen in for me, uh, was...... Ubers. So I'd get into the back of an Uber and if I was on the phone, I'd, like, make this, like, groveling apology to the Uber driver who, uh, I- I evidently thought needed me to entertain him for the entirety of this journey, "Sorry, I- I- I'm- I'm- I'm on the ph- I'm on the phone at the moment, sorry. Uh, yeah, I'm very good, thank you." I'm like, "What the fuck?"

   28. WCWhitney Cummings55:47

       And what is that, what is that saying? What is your judgment of him?

   29. CWChris Williamson55:50

       That he needs me, look- look at what a blessing I am to his life. Uh, also, if I don't, he's incapable of looking after himself as he is, I need to step in and make sure that he's okay, and I'm on the phone and that's kind of rude. And I mean, you know, he might, he w- w- he has to be entertained by me for the entire... 'Cause it's not like he literally does this as a job every single day.

   30. WCWhitney Cummings56:12

       And he's like, "If I wanna listen to you talk dude, uh, there's 100 episodes. I- I got it."
8. 1:01:27 – 1:11:49

   Future Challenges of Young Men & Women

   1. CWChris Williamson1:01:27

      I- we spoke about this last time, but the...... problem that I think you're going to see with the next generation, this current generation of girls growing up to become women, is going to be fragility and narcissism. Because all of the subtext in all popular media is the only challenge that you ever need to face is men around you not believing in you sufficiently-

   2. WCWhitney Cummings1:01:47

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:01:47

      ... you're perfect as you are.

   4. WCWhitney Cummings1:01:48

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:01:49

      You are immutable, and the world is mutable. It will change to fit your preferences, to fit your needs. And the subtext, you know, it, it, it, I know it's hard. It is definitely hard for guys. I talk about this an awful lot, that y- you've got to pick yourself up by your bootstraps and carry a heavy weight and burden and so on and so forth. But at least that worldview, although it's difficult and filled with responsibility, it's complementary in as much as it, it suggests to you that you can handle it.

   6. WCWhitney Cummings1:02:18

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:02:18

      That you can bear it. And I think that that's a, th- that's something that you should be flattered by, as a guy, and it's a hopeful message. It's way more hopeful than if you ever encounter a challenge in the world, it's because of a problem with the world, not something that you need to overcome yourself.

   8. WCWhitney Cummings1:02:32

      And it-

   9. CWChris Williamson1:02:32

      The world should fold around you.

   10. WCWhitney Cummings1:02:34

       And isn't this kind of Darwinism, though, too? You know, it's like the people that expect that are not gonna make it, and the people that don't, don't. Like, I mean, I learned at an early age, like, and this is a thing in, that I learned in program, is like, the world owes you nothing. That, like, blew my mind. That blew my mind.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:02:51

       Why?

   12. WCWhitney Cummings1:02:52

       That, I, I don't know whether it was movies that instilled this in my brain or I don't know where, or maybe it was just, you know, the magical thinking that, you know, 'cause growing up in what I'll call a coma a lot of times, fantasy becomes your primary addiction first, so that's another thing. You know? There's manifesting, there's fantasizing. You know, at a very young age, I was checking out in fantasy, and then I found myself in relationships, you know, fantasizing about the relationship instead of basing my feelings about it on what was actually happening. And I think I see more and more people having these, like, kind of text relationships that aren't based on actually connecting with the person, and the relationship is kind of like a confluence of a little bit of in-person time, texting, and then their imagination. And then, all of a sudden, it's like, you know, the person's not behaving the way that they're picturing it.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:03:37

       Uh-huh, that's interesting.

   14. WCWhitney Cummings1:03:38

       And I found myself doing that a lot as a way to not have to be in something, so that's, like, more into the love addiction thing and the fantasizing thing, because I see a lot of situations now, with men and women, where things go south, but it was kinda, a lot of the relationship was fantasy, uh, and not based on actual things that were happening. And I definitely did that as a way to check out, and then, as an adult, you know, in my early 20s was I an adult, um, but to not have to be in something real, so I'm not gonna get rejected, I don't have to do the rejecting, I'll just be in this fantasy world, which now-

   15. CWChris Williamson1:04:10

       Oh, yeah, it's a protection. I mean, again, we spoke about this last time, this sort of Overton window of emotions that most people exist within, where nothing's ever that joyful, and nothing's ever that sad.

   16. WCWhitney Cummings1:04:19

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:04:20

       I, I'm kind of like the thermostat, you know, I exist between 65 and 72 degrees.

   18. WCWhitney Cummings1:04:26

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:04:26

       And any time that I cross outside of that, there's something really, really wrong, and that's not safe, so I'll cope by scrolling on my phone-

   20. WCWhitney Cummings1:04:32

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:04:32

       ... or by going out and distracting myself with TV or with junk food or with porn or with video games or with social media or whatever.

   22. WCWhitney Cummings1:04:39

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:04:39

       And, uh, yet it results in us becoming ever more sensitized to ever less strong emotions.

   24. WCWhitney Cummings1:04:47

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:04:48

       And then something happens that pulls us out of it, and somebody has a panic attack.

   26. WCWhitney Cummings1:04:52

       Totally, totally. I mean, you know, I think this is also like the ice bath thing. I have no idea, you guys and your ice baths. I think that it's a good thing regardless to just m- go out of your way to make yourself uncomfortable. Like-

   27. CWChris Williamson1:05:04

       It's such a trope, and I keep, I, I, I keep having this conversation with a ton of my friends that have kind of been in this world for a while. I genuinely believe that almost all of the important insights from a personal development standpoint, I already know now-

   28. WCWhitney Cummings1:05:20

       Hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:05:20

       ... after eight years or whatever of being kind of in the trenches of learning this stuff. S- and I'm sure that there's way more that I don't know that I still need to know. The point is, there's only a small number of really important sort of foundational elements to becoming a better person, as far as I can see.

   30. WCWhitney Cummings1:05:38

       Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 2:24:10