Why Most Jacked Guys Are Still Insecure - David Laid

David Laid 0:00 ... the most important thing is realizing that fundamentally, you're a slave to an egotistical construction with either one. And the goal is to transcend that, even though your egotistical construction that you're feeding is societally rewarded, right? So, that's a trap that you could really, really fall into. So, the key is, you need to go a little lower than that. (wind blows)

Chris Williamson 0:21 We are both fans of Charlie Houpert, and he says that when somebody asks you, "What do you do?"

David Laid 0:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 0:26 You have the opportunity

Chris Williamson 0:27 to hook lots of different things in. So, if someone was to ask you, "Why do you do what you do?"

David Laid 0:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 0:34 What's the single thread that ties together all of the things that you do? What would you say there?

David Laid 0:41 Hmm. That's interesting. I feel like there's been, like, an evolution, like, throughout that, because ... Just what I do, I guess, it's, like, changed, like, over time, because, like, now, like, broadly speaking, like, on the surface, like, I make, like, YouTube, like, fitness-oriented videos. But I think that started when I was, like, 13 or 14 years old. Like, I got into, like, weightlifting, and then I took a lot of pictures of my progress, made a transformation video that ended up going viral. And then I just, like, started making a YouTube channel just with, like, my friends in the gym, just making random videos of working out. And then, I guess, I started being more interested in making cinematic-ish, like, content, and just making it more, like, I don't know, sophisticated, like, higher quality, like, et cetera, like, more artistic. And, yeah, I guess, I just enjoy making videos that I just, like, enjoy making.

Chris Williamson 1:39 Do you wish, sometimes, that your entrance into the world of virality, social media, YouTube, hadn't been so tightly defined based on the way that you look, the gym? Or, do you, like, integrate that as part of your history perfectly fine?

David Laid 2:01 I'd say so. I mean, I'd say at an earlier point, maybe, like, years and years and years ago, it was to the point where there was like, a, like, I guess, a slight, like, toxicity component to it, because the whole reason that I got into working out was because of, like, very, like, generic stereotypical insecurities, just being, like, extremely skinny, feeling all that. And then, as I started getting more and more progress in the gym, and then that obviously gave me, like, a self-esteem boost. I felt a lot better about myself, and then I would, like, take pictures. And then, obviously, when people take pictures, oftentimes they just want to, like, maximize it to get it, you know, the best lighting angles, et cetera. And then I got to a point where, maybe, like, a few years into working out where I had g- just a decent bit enough of muscle to get pictures that look, like, semi-decent, right? But not in those pictures, like, in real life, like without, like, a pump or whatever. I remember just, like, feeling, like, still, like, very, like, just, like, skinny and insecure. And then it was, like, a problem because even, say, like, my senior year in high school, I remember I would just wear hoodies just all the time, because if you're wearing, like, a big baggy hoodie, you can't, like, exactly tell, like, like, the size of an individual.

Chris Williamson 3:05 Even though at this stage, you're probably one of the biggest guys in school?

David Laid 3:09 Yeah, I mean, I wasn't, like, gargantuous or anything of the sort. But I definitely... I- I look a good, normal, reasonable human being with, like, an acceptable amount of, like, muscle tone, right? But still in my head there was, like, this crazy just distortion, body dysmorphia.

Chris Williamson 3:21 Mm-hmm.

David Laid 3:21 And then eventually what I transferred over into social media is, it was like that thing just amplified even more in terms of just needing to look as good as I possibly could, like, in those pictures and videos.

Chris Williamson 3:31 People are now scrutinizing you for it.

David Laid 3:32 Yeah. So, if, like, I take a picture with someone and then my physique didn't look, like, as good as, like, I thought it would, like, in my own pictures that I would take or just by myself in, like, particular curated environments, that would definitely wreak havoc on my well-being, and that was definitely suboptimal. But as more and more time went by, I feel like that general complex just naturally, like, dissolved and there's been a bit more peace.

Chris Williamson 3:55 Where are you at now with... You know, because you're still... What, you're 24?

David Laid 3:58 Uh, just turning 25.

Chris Williamson 4:00 Right. Okay. So, you've been on the internet for longer than I have, despite being 10 years younger than me.

David Laid 4:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:05 Right? Given the fact that you have had this long career from basically... When was- when did that first video go viral? 17? 18?

David Laid 4:15 What, the- the age that I was?

Chris Williamson 4:16 Yeah.

David Laid 4:16 I was about 17.

Chris Williamson 4:17 Yeah. So, you know, a good chunk of time that you've spent with an awful lot of eyes on you on the internet.

David Laid 4:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:22 All of this has been based around the way that you look. You know, this is coming out the back end of the, like, aesthetic bro, like, Jimsies era type thing. How have you managed to dispense with... Or how much have you managed to get rid of that body dysmorphia, that sense of your sense of self-worth being attached to the way that you look, your leanness, your size?

David Laid 4:43 I think the way that that dissolution happened to whatever degree it has happened was through just so many years on end or such a prolonged period of time of just feeling such internal, like, discomfort and dissonance and just an o- yeah, just an overall sense of, like, discomfort in my actual day-to-day life, having to just, like, micromanage just my own, like, self-image of how I think I look, yada, yada, this and that. And then it just got to the point where that was just so unsatisfying to operate in that way, that the more and more I would distance myself from that, like, organically as a byproduct of, like, achieving a certain, like, understanding of how that makes me feel, then I would just notice it would just not feel that way anymore. But even, like, throughout the years, like, at times, I would have situations where I could just see my brain re-entering previous thought patterns that I did when I was, like, fully ensconced in that mindset. But back when I was fully ensconced in that mindset, that was literally my, like, reality as I was, like, having those thoughts and feelings. But now, that previous thought pattern still exists, but it- it exists within a broader understanding so that when it arises, I could just recognize its arousal and then it'll just go away. And then, um, just, like, I don't know, at peace or I, like, feel fine. Like, there's, like, no, like, issues really. So, I don't know. I- I didn't, like, necessarily implement, like,... just, like, a strategic, like, plan or, like, take any, like, steps, or, like, uh, create, I don't know, like, a mental hygienic discipline to do that. It just,

David Laid 6:12 it just sort of just organically just happened after just, like, contemplation and stuff. (smacks lips)

Chris Williamson 6:16 Talk to me about the introspection and the self-work that you've done over the last few years.

David Laid 6:22 (sighs) I think-

Chris Williamson 6:24 'Cause, uh, j- just to interject there, man, like, you're a, you're a young guy, right? You're 25.

David Laid 6:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:28 I was, like, an adult infant at 25. And the way that you're talking about letting go, releasing, uh, difficult challenges that come up is very mature, especially for somebody that's had broadly the internet world at their feet for quite a long time, and I'm fascinated to work out how you go from that aesthetic bro thing to now, at still a relatively young age, taking value in different stuff. What have been the practices, the thought patterns, the influences that have got you ... ?

David Laid 6:58 (sighs) I'd say one of the main reasons that happened is just my natural disposition of being extremely introverted. So for me, I spent a lot of time by myself. That's in my recharge period, yada yada. Like, we all know, like, how, like, introversion works, like, basically. So for me, just, just long periods of time (laughs) just by myself just thinking about shit.

Chris Williamson 7:19 Are you an only child?

David Laid 7:21 No, I have three brothers.

Chris Williamson 7:22 Okay.

David Laid 7:22 Yeah. Just thinking, just obviously listening to just lots of podcasts, like, lots of great thinkers, just borrowing, like, thought patterns from other people and just building this larger, like, conception, like, in my head, and then contrasting that with my own insights and things that I've just experienced and, yeah, just, just lots of, just, just lots of, like, thinking, 'cause I feel like that's how most things are, like, typically, like, resolved. Like, there's an idea that ... I forget. Like, there's lots of people that talk about this. I'm sure you've heard people talk about this too. But if you, if you wanna ... Like, for example, like, are you familiar with, like, Naval Ravikant, like, him talking about, like, prescriptions or, like, if he's spoken to, uh, an individual like, like Kapil Gupta. I don't know if you've, like, seen that podcast.

Chris Williamson 8:04 He's been on my show.

David Laid 8:04 Oh, he has? N-

Chris Williamson 8:04 A very long time ago.

David Laid 8:05 Who?

Chris Williamson 8:05 Kapil Gupta.

David Laid 8:06 No way.

Chris Williamson 8:07 Correct.

David Laid 8:07 Has he actually?

Chris Williamson 8:08 Yeah, the No Prescriptions Prescriptions guy.

David Laid 8:10 Was it an audio-only podcast?

Chris Williamson 8:11 Correct.

David Laid 8:12 Yeah. So I mean, yeah, that whole idea, like, basically, I feel like ... So if an individual is, like, struggling with, like, any so- source of, like, body dysmorphia, image issues, like, et cetera, one line of thought is like, "Okay," you're like, "I, I have an issue, like, I have a problem. I have, like, anxiety, I have distress, I have all these, like, things going on." So one school of thought is like, "Okay, let me ... Okay, I have issues, right? I need to fix issues, so let me, like, implement, like, certain, like, things and regimes to, like, combat these problems," which is, like, useful in moderation to a degree, but I feel like for just a really, really deep, internal, authentic transformation, you can't do that by following just certain, like, "Oh, let me just write down, like, in my, like, gratitude journal, like, 15 minutes a day, like, every single day, like, let me just, like, have this, like, mantra, like, meditation kind of pattern." Maybe that works for some people to some degree, but in a certain kind of way, there's a type of, like, insincerity that goes with that, because you become obsessed with doing the, doing the, the surface-level generic action to get out of your state of distress as opposed to just sitting and being in the distress without any agenda and just, just being there and in that state, just naturally you somehow just wiggle out of, or dissolve, or just tr- transcend, like, the issue per se. Or you don't even transcend it; you can just understand it on a deeper level. And it's, it's that deeper understanding that gives, like, health, I suppose, if that makes any sense.

Chris Williamson 9:39 It does. Well, I think that an interesting question might be, how many of the strategies that you use to deal with the things that you don't like about yourself or about your life are not helping you to deal with them, but are helping you to escape from them?

David Laid 9:54 So, yeah. So I just remember, so I remember ... (sighs) So when I was, like, young, when I was, like, 13, 14-ish, like, 12 or whatever, I was, like, very insecure. I was, like, skinny, whatever, right? So, like, I saw, like, you know, muscular people that I look up to and was like, "Oh," like, "I want that," right? So then I followed a bunch of people, I gained, like, a lot of inspiration, and then I did, like, what I needed to do to, like, build my physique. And then I think I was around the age of, like, 18, 19, 20, like, sometime around that time, and then I think that's when Jordan Peterson, like, first started popping off. And, um, I was, like, listening to a lot of his content and I was like, "Whoa, there's something about this, like, resonates so much." I remember, like, feeling just that I would just, like, have, like, certain just interesting ideas or, like, things going on in my brain, but they couldn't, like, come out just right. And then when I would listen to someone like Jordan Peterson speak, I had a very specific admiration for the, his ability to so precisely with perfect congruence of what's happening internally and what he's saying externally to be at a one-to-one ratio with just, like, m- music, like, orchestral-grade precision with, like, his, like, delivery. Just almost, like, irregardless of what he was, like, saying, it's, like, the structure not the content of his speech that I just had, like, an admiration for in addition to the things that are obviously said as well. So then that, I feel like, launched my brain into wanting to just, like, develop in those, like, general regions and, like, categories and stuff. So I would just listen to, like, so many other people, you know, the Sam Harris', um, Alan Watts, et cetera, like, all these, like, different people. So then I remember, like, reaching a point of, like, I was, like, 20, 21-ish, and then I had a general feeling of just, like, the whole body dysmorphia, yada yada, all this, like, stuff was just, like, catching up to me, all these, like, generic whatever, like, all these problems that me and, like, so many people deal with. And then I went down, like, the prescription path, right? And the prescription path would have been like, oh, like I started going to yoga all the time. And then I had this, like, huge ego complex, like showing up on time, like, doing all, like, my poses, like, extremely, extremely well, 'cause I'm like, "If I'm, like, doing this," right? And then I also, like, I'll, like, sit down and, like, I'll meditate in the morning for, like, 30 minutes, whatever. I was, like, so obsessed and excited to do that.

Chris Williamson 11:49 Mm-hmm.

David Laid 11:49 Because obviously, you know, the thought pattern is doing these things will, like, alleviate me and, like, get me out of, like, my problems or whatever. So then I feel like that's a very common thing for, like, so many people to do, and then they become obsessed with doing that. I became obsessed with doing that, and then I felt, like, huge bursts of dopamine throughout that, right? Because I'm like, "Oh, checkbox," like, "yoga session finished," like, "this thing finished," like, "this," like, "food," like, "eaten," right? And I would just feel, like, so excited, but it was almost like a short-term just-... pleasure-seeking fixation on, like, doing that. And that it didn't actually, didn't, like, really, like, solve anything.

Chris Williamson 12:19 Underneath, you've still got the, the existing problem. Okay, so you've got, in the first instance, an issue with body dysmorphia or a dissatisfaction with the way that you look.

David Laid 12:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:30 You fix that by finding people that you like the way that they look and modeling what they do.

David Laid 12:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:35 Then you find people that you admire the way that they think, and you compare the way that you think to the way that they think. You then start to model off of the way that they think. What are the similarities between ... Or, what is it that you were looking for, do you think, in both camps of people? Like, what is it that Zyzz and Jordan Peterson have got in common that seduced you? (laughs)

David Laid 12:55 (laughs) That's such a great line. "What are the things that Zyzz and Jordan Peterson have in common?" I'd say that it's the-

Chris Williamson 13:01 To you.

David Laid 13:02 To me.

Chris Williamson 13:02 To you.

David Laid 13:04 An attainment of something that I, for whatever reason, deem to me, deem to be admirable and non-negotiably necessary for me to have. And in Zyzz's obvious case, it's, you know, muscles, uh, Jordan Peterson brain, et cetera. But so it's just their accomplishment of something. Yeah, and I feel like you could almost tie that into ... I don't know if you could tie that into the general concept of, like, masculinity, but ... Uh, I'd s- yeah, I'd, I'd say to me, it's just something that they, like, achieved that I, for whatever reason, just wanted to have.

Chris Williamson 13:43 Well, it sounds to me like, if you want to roll masculinity into this,

Chris Williamson 13:48 you're trying from first principles to come up with, like, what is a modern Renaissance man? You know, how do we have the body, the brains, the humility, the benevolence, the altruism, the insight, the self-awareness, you know, the, the power, but not the tyranny, the money but not the greed? You know, how do we hold all of these things together? One of the challenges that I've been talking about a lot on the show at the moment is finding a firm place for men to stand in the modern world, and this isn't just good for men, right? Because if you have good, benevolent, strong men, they make pretty good partners, usually, on average. Like, they're good for the women as well, and they're good for the community and they're good for the society and they're good for the civilization and the GDP and the economics, all the rest of the stuff. Given the fact that you have spent a lot of time chronically online for the last 10 years, what's your conception of male role models at the moment, the challenge of masculinity? Why do you think it is that a lot of young men are feeling lost, uh, a- a- and are requiring more and more of these role models?

David Laid 14:55 I think there's many different, like, interpretations. Like, one school of thought or camp is like, oh, there's, there's been a disruption of the nuclear family unit, and there's, like, some conspiratorial reasons for that, some non-conspiratory reasons. Because you can go under the hypothesis that to, you know, have a more or less successful upbringing, you, you want the standard nuclear family unit, mom and dad, and then with that being, like, fragmented, fractured, then that creates all sorts of problems. So if that is the case, then the, the quote-unquote "child boy," like in this instance, isn't getting a certain type of ... I- isn't getting, like, a healthy, proper dose of masculine energy, like, within, like, the household under the assumption that the household is fragmented for whatever reasons.

Chris Williamson 15:33 Mm-hmm.

David Laid 15:33 Then that need still needs to be satiated, and because it's not being satiated at home, due to the easy access of the internet, then that role models will be found, like, online.

Chris Williamson 15:44 Yep.

David Laid 15:44 So, like, inbuilt, in- like, intrinsic, like, in, like, the human condition is, like, that, like, need for that, like, kind of energy-

Chris Williamson 15:50 Mm-hmm.

David Laid 15:50 ... and if it's not being, like, given at home, it's gonna be, needs to be supplemented elsewhere, in all this case online. And depending on the maybe maturity level of the individual or just how the individual is wired, that they, like certain people gravitate towards these types of online figures. Other will, like, rotate in this. I mean, not rotate. Resonate or connect with other people that they find on the internet, and I think that the reason that people like Zyzz and like Jordan Peterson (laughs) and all like that are, um, influential and have, like, resonance is because they're arguably supplementing that need that a lot of people aren't getting in the stereotypically standard classic home nuclear family-esque kind of way.

Chris Williamson 16:32 Yes. Yes, I think yes.

David Laid 16:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:34 I also think that even if you do have a nuclear family, the rules and procedures that the generation before ours had, you know, if your dad grew up and never had the internet until you were born, wh- how is he going to be able to fold in understanding the way that social media works, understanding the way that online dating works, the crazy, crazy changes that we've seen with regards to men's roles, the Me Too movement, all of this stuff? I think that even the best-meaning father in the world from the previous generation might struggle to have the language to be able to communicate with the kid that is growing up.

David Laid 17:13 Yeah. No, for sure. Times are changing tho- so fast. Things are changing so quickly that, you know, the, the previous, like, rule set or whatever, although it may have, like, certain fundamental pillars or parameters that'll be universally applicable for any timeline whatsoever, when things change as they inevitably do, like, things, approaches need to be just, like, micromanaged and nuancedly, like, tweaked, and then no one knows, like, exactly to what degree that needs to be done. Like, it's so easy to overshoot or undershoot-

Chris Williamson 17:40 I-

David Laid 17:40 ... and because the rules, like, haven't been made yet, we're, we're essentially figuring out, like, on the fly, like, what's, like, happening.

Chris Williamson 17:45 Correct. I also think that it's more than, uh, perhaps just a micro tweak. I think that the last 30 to 40 years has been a bit of a left turn-

David Laid 17:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:53 ... soon as you introduce the internet. One interesting thing that I was considering on the plane ride over here, for the guys that didn't come up, uh, living on Zyzz and that aesthetics bro era, a lot of that was about pulling girls at festivals. It was sort of quite chauvinistic. It was, uh, harmless and funny and self-deprecating. But there was still a lot of that, like, sort of gym flirtation energy in there.

David Laid 18:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 18:20 How do you think in 2023, given the-... politics that we have at the moment, given the hypersensitivity around approaching girls in the gym, given the advent of Me Too, how do you think if you deposited Zyzz in 2023, that kind of content would be received now? Do you think that he would survive without cancellation?

David Laid 18:41 (sighs) Someone like Zyzz? I think that he would survive without cancellation probably, because I think, like, extremist people like that, that, I mean, they garner, like, a certain, like, audience. Like, the more niche or extreme you could be, like, you'll, you'll cultivate an audience and obviously, like, a lot of people also dislike you as well and that'll, like, add to your benefit in terms of, like, social media, like, expansion. So, I mean, there's, like, plenty of people that many people t- deem to be detestable but they are still extremely prevalent on the internet. So, no, I mean, I think all things considered, I don't think Zyzz would be, like, canceled per se today, because I mean, there's so many other people that are, like, taking on, like, the Zyzz-esque manly energy and just, like, passing, you know, taking the torch that he, you know, passed on that are still living in those general, like, kinds of ways.

Chris Williamson 19:25 Mm-hmm.

David Laid 19:25 So I think that, I think he would probably flourish just fine, objectively speaking.

Chris Williamson 19:30 Talking about this, I, I, I'm fascinated about this trajectory, right, that, that you've gone on specifically. Um, what changes, if you were able to create what you think the world of men that are around about your age need right now in terms of influencers and influences, what do you wish that you could see more of in terms of the sort of content that's out there, in terms of the kind of messaging, the kind of values, the sorts of things that men should be aspiring toward, and the things that they should stop aspiring toward as well? What would you try and prescribe?

David Laid 20:03 I think generally speaking, like, a reduction in materialism would probably be a good thing, and I think the additional emphasis on just developing, like, a competence in, like, any domain whatsoever, whether it's like pottery, you know, exercising, working out, like, whatever it is. So it would be, I think it would be better to shine more of a light on people's genuine, like, ability and attainments and skill level in whatever their idiosyncratic or s- generic just pursuit and endeavor is, and just have a- a- appreciation for that in and of itself without any, with a significantly less emphasis on the periphery of the tangible material assets of that, that that type of success could, like, yield. So-

Chris Williamson 20:52 Hormozi, on a episode that I did with him a couple of weeks ago, said, "Far more people are kept poor and stupid by their ego than get rich off it."

David Laid 20:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:59 And, you know, he made this great point that if you are somebody that considers yourself to be, uh, a high performer, uh, that is pushing and always trying to grow, and you're able to retain your ego, it's because you're in the wrong room.

David Laid 21:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:13 And his point was even though he's now worth 100 mil, he's got this acquisition.com, he's doing these massive deals, he is permanently in rooms where he is both the stupidest and poorest person in the room. How can you allow an ego to proliferate and grow when you're permanently the lowest rung of the ladder?

David Laid 21:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:31 And his argument was basically that ego comes from people, uh, artificially walling off the size of the pond that they get into-

David Laid 21:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:39 ... to allow themselves to always be the biggest fish.

David Laid 21:42 But also, I feel like it comes down to their deepest, most fundamental motivation, 'cause for example, you could take someone like Alex. He desperately is wired to do something and wants to do something, just like work, build his empire, business, whatever. That's like his sort of thing. So he just, he simply needs to do that to be satiated, happy, and, like, satisfied, right? So that's just what he's on. And in order to be able to do that as effectively as he possibly can manage, that would necessitate and require a very high level of, like, self-awareness. And obviously self-awareness is the antithesis to ego, so that's just simply what he, what he wants to do. And then you could take someone else that is like the small pond, like, ego situation, their primary most fundamental desire isn't doing something for its own sake or s- any, you know, deeper reason like that. It's simply towards the, the growth and maintenance of the ego, right? And that's just simp- that, that's just what their motivation is. Like, they're simply, they're more interested in, like, having a certain self-image of themselves and doing everything to convince other people of that image and convince themselves of that image, 'cause to them, that's more important than other things. So it's just a, a, like a, a, a different hierarchy of, like, priorities, right? So like-

Chris Williamson 22:48 Yes.

David Laid 22:48 ... the lower level development psyche is gonna want to favor just egotistical-ish types of things.

Chris Williamson 22:55 How do you square

Chris Williamson 22:56 this circle with the person that's listening to this and going, "Hang on, you're David Fucking Laid. Like, you're Mr. Instagram, Zyzz era." Like, how have you made that change? How have you made that transition from being somebody who outwardly it seemed like it was, and you mentioned yourself, it was to satiate your feelings of insufficiency to now get to a place where ... I mean, how many videos have you posted on YouTube in the last year? Probably less than 12? How many Instagram posts have you done in the last year? Less than 20?

David Laid 23:26 (laughs) It's been on a decline. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:28 But my point being that from where I can see, and I didn't get to hear you on podcast before, I think that y- your trajectory in terms of how you're sounding to me, in terms of the things that you're thinking about, is fucking phenomenal. I would've happily taken a sabbatical from social media if what it's resulted in is you being like this. But how do you get to that point? There are guys on the internet that are watching the ego lifter, the materialist Ferrari driver, the Richard Mille red L- Louboutins bottom table at l- club live in Miami ... What is it that can drag those people out of that? Or what would you say to those, like, young guys, if you could? Why should they be bothered about this thing which seems hard and difficult and nuanced and no one gives a fuck about except for their own sense of existential self-worth?

David Laid 24:19 I think, I mean, I think a lot of those people that, like, operate like that, like, they have, like, a vague understanding that, like, maybe the way in which they're operating from a lot of other peoples' points of view is, like, seen as, like, negative, egotistical, immature, like, et cetera. So they have, like, that, like, general, like, awareness, and they're maybe aware that they just to satisfy, you know-... society at a whole, you know, expectations of them, they would maybe like cease or halt or like slow down on some of that behavior, or like, you know, outgrow it or et cetera. But they're like aware of that but they just, they just, they just don't want to do it, because going back to what I was saying before, that's just simply like they're just more interested in doing that. That's, that's like where the current level of, like, their development is. So, in the same way, like to me, the on- th- the way that I outgrew whatever, like I outgrew like whatever time, like it came from just like, just organic like introspection. So going back to kind of what I was like saying in the beginning, like you just simply, you need to just exam- You ne- you just need to just like s- like look at what you're doing and just like look at how you're living and look at how you're operating, and just like, like dissect it as much as you can and be as ho- like be honest with yourself, obviously, and like look at it. And I feel like if you're genuinely and sincerely doing that, right, you're more than likely to realize how that pattern or that style of like living is just disadvantageous for your absolute best interest. And through coming to that realization, you just organically stop doing that. You don't have to do-

Chris Williamson 25:37 You want to do different things.

David Laid 25:38 ... yeah. You don't have to discipline yourself to stop doing it. Like, "Oh, I really wanna do it but I wanna go to this but I can't." Like, no. Y- you just won't have that desire, and that's the best place to be at, 'cause why do you wanna ... Like, it's, it's just where you gotta arrive, you know?

Chris Williamson 25:49 So, there's... My favorite ever blog post of all time is by a guy called Kai Leshenroeder, and it's called What Do You Want to Want? And he talks about the difference between wants and what we want to want. So, wants are societal programming, they're paths of least resistance, they're the way that you've dealt with past trauma. They are all of those things. What you want to want involves you going in and reprogramming your desires. You want to end up in a place where what you want is what you want to want. And he uses this example of the fact that if you don't go in and program your desires, the best thing that you can hope for is to be a rich, successful or famous slave. A slave to the impulses of your body, the confused biochemical signals that you get, the desires of the people around you. And when I read that, and this is, you know, five years ago now, I thought, "What do I want to want in life? Genuinely, what do I want to want?"

David Laid 26:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:42 Like, I have the opportunity, laws of thermodynamics and, like, a little bit of economics restricting, I can want anything. This is what we're talking about here. We're talking about digging away at all of the layers of ego and predisposition and expectation that you've built up, and getting yourself to something that's firmer, getting yourself to something which is what you want to want.

David Laid 27:09 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I, I think there's a lot of validity in that 'cause b- basically, like, what you're saying is, like, you, a person wants certain things, and then maybe he realizes to some degree, like, these just kind of, this maybe, maybe is in my best interest. Mm, like silly, like little hypothesis lurking in the back of the mind. Okay. So, if I'm an autonomous being, I could, I could more or less curate or decide what I want to want. So if that's a possibility, let's just look broadly speaking, what are some of the things that would maybe be in more of a best interest for me to want? And then you d- decide those things and you s- fixate in that pattern, I mean fixate in that direction. And even if you ... Y- you could argue that that's still prescription-esque to some degree, but then you could also say that doing that is better than just continuing wanting those like suboptimal things. So if that, if that's what gets you moving in that direction, then it's-

Chris Williamson 27:58 Absolutely. Yeah. And direction is more important than speed, right?

David Laid 28:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:02 Like, you can be going as fast as possible in the wrong direction, and it actually takes you further away from the destination. And this is something that a lot of people ... I call it the, uh, manopause, um, which is mid-20s toward late 20s. A lot of guys, it seems like you had yours earlier, realize that a lot of the values that they hold, a lot of the things that previously they took a sense of self-worth from, that the world told them that they should value, they don't make them feel fulfilled anymore.

David Laid 28:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:27 And they go, "Oh, fuck. Like, I, I got toward the top of this mountain, and I realized that it was the wrong mountain that I climbed, and actually I was supposed to be on that one over there."

David Laid 28:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:37 And it's difficult, because in order to get to that one, you need to go back down this one that you've already climbed. You need to dispense with the stuff that you've d- that you've got rid of.

David Laid 28:46 This is where I think introversion is such a cheat code.

Chris Williamson 28:48 (laughs)

David Laid 28:48 Because, like, I feel like-

Chris Williamson 28:50 You're less at the mercy of other people's desires.

David Laid 28:52 Because even like for me, I notice that if I'm ... The more frequently and the more for a sustained period of time I'm involved in certain just patterns of behavior, oftentimes socially or just, just what I do in general, you just become locked in those patterns and it becomes more difficult. You have more of like a narrow perspective. So, you know, the brain's malleable, it just gets programmed in that way and you're just kind of operating that way. So for me, a lot of like the best insights that I've gotten are like times when I like completely just like fully detached and just entered this weird like meditative, just like flow state of just being just so just alone, and then-

Chris Williamson 29:22 Monk mode.

David Laid 29:23 Yeah. So it's just, I feel like, yeah, I mean, a- almost a prescriptive thing that you could say is to just stop. I mean, that, that's what they say, say like psychedelics do. I think I heard someone on Joe Rogan talk about, he had like a nice analogy, it's like the brain is like, like a hill covered in snow, and then when the skis go down the snow, that's a thought behavior pattern, et cetera. And then the more you have it, the more deeper that groove gets, and then the psychedelics, they just like wipe the snow.

Chris Williamson 29:47 Correct.

David Laid 29:48 So, detaching from society, detaching and, you know, reclusing yourself for a period of time, it's like a micro form of like a psychedelic snow flattening kind of thing.

Chris Williamson 29:57 Mm. Because you're removing the external inputs as best you can.

David Laid 30:00 Yeah, removing the inputs, stopping the behavior patterns, just allowing yourself to see things differently and have different patterns.

Chris Williamson 30:05 For the people who are thinking about monk mode, um, there's a really great blog post by Illimitable Man, if you just search Illimitable Man monk mode. It's 13 years old now, I think, uh, but it's really, really great. There's the three I's, isolation, introspection, some other shit. There's a third one. Anyway, that, I really, really enjoyed that blog post, and that was good to me.

Chris Williamson 30:28 One thing that I do find, and this is me almost directly like telling it to Hamza, my friend, monk mode can be taken to an extreme, and you can do-... you can obsess over isolated self-development too much.

David Laid 30:45 Yeah. The way that I, the way that, the way that I would look at that is, like, monk mode could become a detrimental extreme when monk, monk mode becomes hyper-prescriptionized. Because the r- I feel like the way it becomes an extreme is, like, you're gonna say, "Okay, I wanna self-improve myself, just monk mode," right? So then you just become obsessed with RPE 10, just maxing out, like, monk mode. So there, the true fundamental motivation isn't understanding things. The true fundamental motivation is to feel good about yourself-

Chris Williamson 31:10 Max out monk mode.

David Laid 31:10 ... for maxing out monk mode, for the egotistical grat-

Chris Williamson 31:12 I understand.

David Laid 31:12 'Cause yeah, I mean, like, just how we talked about how you say young individuals, like, materialistic, programmed by society, like, wrong values and stuff, the reason that they're doing that is because that satisfies their ego. That's been program in- programmed into them, right? Someone going all out monk mode, right? Uh, uh, f- absolutely abstaining from all of that, right?

Chris Williamson 31:31 Yeah.

David Laid 31:31 They're, they're, they have-

Chris Williamson 31:33 Same energy.

David Laid 31:33 No. They have the, they have the, they have the exact same ego, but the subtle difference is that they could feel a sense of just, like, moral superiority-

Chris Williamson 31:39 Correct.

David Laid 31:40 ... because, like, "I'm better than you because of all that." But in reality, they have the same ego, it's just transmuted into something else.

Chris Williamson 31:45 This is a very important point that I want everybody to take home, which is, you can justify any kind of activity as being the thing that is going to give you a sense of dopaminergic, "I achieved the next thing." Just because you have switched one type of obsession for another type of obsession does not necessarily mean that that obsession is more holistic. You could argue, given the choice between being obsessed with the gym and being obsessed with taking heroin, that the gym is objectively a better obsession to have. But if you're gonna get really down to zero, what we're talking about is, how can we sit with the discomfort of not being enough? How can we sit with the discomfort of not having an obsession at all? What does that feel like? And this is, like, almost a psychedelic point, right?

David Laid 32:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:36 To get rid of, to get rid of the desire to need those things overall.

David Laid 32:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:41 Um ...

David Laid 32:42 You know, I feel like that, that's a very good point, the idea that, like, yeah. Like, doing heroin or whatever, or like, versus like working out in the gym, like, it's a similar kind of egotistical pursuit. But due to like, I mean obviously the working out's like a, the healthier thing, and you could make-

Chris Williamson 32:58 But the externality of one is very different to another, right?

David Laid 33:00 Exactly, so that's what I'm getting at, uh, th- the externality could be like drastically different. For example, like you could be addicted to heroin or you could be addicted to just like rampant entrepreneurial, just financial-

Chris Williamson 33:10 Correct. Correct.

David Laid 33:10 ... just hedonism splur- and that, and that again, due to how society is, it's ce- it's celebrated, yada, yada, blah, blah. But like you said, it is, the most important thing is realizing that fundamentally, you're a slave to an egotistical construction with either one. And the goal is to transcend that, even though your egotistical construction that you're feeding is societally rewarded, right?

Chris Williamson 33:32 Correct.

David Laid 33:32 So that's a trap that you could really, really fall into. So the key is, you need to go a little lower than that.

Chris Williamson 33:36 Yep. I agree. It's a very difficult thing to do, to let go of something which is not destructive, reinforced, praised, gives you accolades, and really importantly, like you said, gives you the moral high ground.

David Laid 33:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:53 It's like, "Look at me. Look at how awakened I am." This is, there's a term that you might or might not be familiar with called spiritual bypass.

David Laid 34:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:00 So have you heard of this before?

David Laid 34:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:02 Yeah, so, um, uh, people that go to South America, take a ton of ayahuasca, come back and proselytize, extol the virtues of this amazing peak experience that they've had, don't do any of the integration, don't do any of the self-work, go back to being the same, maybe not even a piece of shit, but just go back to being the same person that they were before, and then go and do it again.

David Laid 34:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:24 Right? That's spiritual bypass, or better to, I prefer spiritual tourism, that you can go and like visit it like a holiday home and come back and forget about all of the things that you learned. The goal is to integrate each of these different points here. So one thing that was very formative for me, and I'm interested to find out about your experience as

Chris Williamson 34:42 well, I had a pretty serious back injury, uh, about four years ago. Got into CrossFit, uh, was way stronger than my body could deal with, and managed to slip two discs. I found Stu McGill, number one back pain specialist on the planet. I know that you have worked with him too.

David Laid 35:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 35:02 How difficult was it for you, as somebody who had a lot of his self-worth wrapped up in the way that he looked, to have that taken away from you by, first off, a back injury, and secondly, by what I'm guessing if you followed what Stu told you to do, was an unbelievably slow, painful, very humbling process of slow rehabilitation?

David Laid 35:23 See, yeah, this could tie in real nicely. So, so with me, due to having all the body dysmorphia insecurity, just like needing to work out to feel like the validation, self-love, self-worth, et cetera, right, that other extremes that that pushed me into is just like how, like, intense like I would exercise, right? I would just, you know, horrible form, lift as much as I could, just pain tolerance, like push through all of that, right? And-

Chris Williamson 35:44 Deadlift sumo as well, which is cheating.

David Laid 35:45 ... deadlift sumo. So here's the thing. So from one point of view it's like, "Wow, that's so admirable. Like you just work so hard, you're so disciplined, you're so dedicated. That's just so amazing, good for you." But if you, you know, look behind the curtain a little bit, that's not this- that's not that altruistic and pure of like an energy source, right? It's a toxic energy source, and that toxic energy source is an insecurity, and then that basically, that led me to just severe injuries of my spine, because horrible form, lifting heavy weight, blah, blah, blah. So with that, right, it's almost like my back injury is a personification of being fueled by a toxic fuel source, right? And then the thing is, like someone could have told me back in the day and said, "Oh, like you know, you shouldn't be like lifting this heavy, you shouldn't be doing this. You should've been more careful," right? And that's me being like aware that maybe I shouldn't be doing that in the same way as someone that's like living a very hedonistic, young, immature, egotistic lifestyle is also vaguely aware that they maybe shouldn't be doing that. I had that same awareness too, but even though I knew that...... it just didn't matter because my, my goal was, like, so egotistical at the end of the day, which is why the back situation, like, needed to happen to me. Like, it ... there was simply no-

Chris Williamson 36:58 Are you thankful that it happened?

David Laid 36:59 I mean, in a, in a ... Well, yes, in a certain kind of way, but I feel like it was inevitable to happen because, I mean, one school of thought is, like, for people to make, like, a proper drastic change, like, they need to hit, like, a form of, like, rock bottom, right? It's ... (sighs) I had, I was having this thought the other day, I maybe have, like, heard it somewhere, I don't remember, but it's like, something along the lines of, like, wisdom is often, if not exclusively, attained after, like, like, a rock bottom-ish type of situation. But then, ideally, you'd want that wisdom, like, beforehand, but paradoxically it can only be gained after, like, a rock bottom, like, kind of thing.

Chris Williamson 37:32 Mm-hmm.

David Laid 37:32 So it's like this weird tango inverted loop thing. But yes, I mean, like, for me, that kind of definitely aided in a lot of the, um, just introspection or, like, growth or whatever, just, like, having, like, that back situation happen because it forced me to just, like, slow down. Like, I, like, I was in such debilitating pain that, like, not only could I not deadlift or squat, like, the way that I wanted to, I couldn't deadlift, squat or I couldn't work out sometimes how I wanted to. I'd just be laying in bed with just chronic debilitating pain and to get out of that really wasn't that difficult at all. I mean, it was, but when I say not that difficult at all, I mean it's just, like, stop doing stupid things that hurt you and, like, rest. But how my brain was wired at the time was like, "That's not an option." Like I just need to go ... go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. So it hit a point where ... so you can almost argue that it wasn't this just altruistic transformation. It literally hit a point where the back pain was so debilitating that I would rather kill my previous ego and start from scratch than I would maintain that ego and tolerate the back pain 'cause before it was back pain was here, ego was here. It's still more worth- But when the, when, when those scales, like, tipped just the right amount, it was an organic shift because I literally just had no other choice. So I literally-

Chris Williamson 38:41 You were constrained by your body.

David Laid 38:43 Yeah. So, like, I had to start from ground zero. And I mean, yeah, that's changed, like, not being so extremist all out in the gym, like, being very, like, patient, disciplined, careful with, like, how I go about something as simple as, like, training, where in the past, like, "Oh, I feel good today. Max." Just all the time. And so I feel like that new mindset now that I got from dealing with my back injuries has definitely permeated out, like, into other areas. But I think it arguably needed to happen to checkmate me into a form of, like, introspection. So ...

Chris Williamson 39:16 Me too. Me too, man. Uh, it came at the right time. I had spent all of my 20s being a commercial male model, uh, walking around with my night, with my, uh, top off in nightclubs, uh, getting photographed by Dean and, um, o- a lot of my self-worth was wrapped up in that. You know, even though I wasn't doing the online thing to the degree that you were, I still was, like, the guy that was in shape. I was always the, like, one of the biggest and one of the leanest amongst my friends and that gets taken away from you and you think, "Well, fuck, who am I now? Who am I, who am I now when all of the thing, all of the places that I took my self-worth from are gone?"

David Laid 39:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:01 "Well, fuck, like, what, what's left?" Because this isn't gonna be here forever. I had a thought of a quote the other day which was, um, "Your looks are a depreciating asset. Your mind is an appreciating asset. Invest your self-worth appropriately." Like, everybody, no matter whether you think that your sexual market value as a guy is gonna peak at 45, like, there is going to come a time where you get over the top of that hill and it's going to start descending. Like, even fucking David Gandy, right, is gonna start descending at some point. You have the opportunity to invest in something which is evergreen, which is gonna compound, which is going to benefit the rest of the world, and that's not to say that people that are in shape can't benefit the rest of the world. It's good to be motivational, so on and so forth. But especially for women, I think. Uh, there was this story about Paulina Porizkova who was a, a supermodel, uh, back in the '90s, '80s and '90s and she's now 56 and her husband had died and there was a famous story that came out about her about a year and a half ago. And she was lamenting the fact that as a 56-year-old she walks into parties and none of the guys look at her anymore because they're all distracted by the 23-year-olds that are in the room. And she was saying, uh, "You know, a lot of my self-worth, I, I feel really terrible," and so on and so forth. And it made me sad, it made me sad because I was looking at somebody who was still taking their fundamental sense of self-worth from the way that they looked with, I think, two or three kids, um, and it just, it doesn't feel graceful. Do you know what I mean? Like, it, it doesn't feel like somebody has, has allowed themselves to, to get harmony and grace and transcend and include the things that they had before. And also, there's obviously a massive amount of, like, hubris and hypocrisy here because when you were 22, you didn't care about the 56-year-old that was in the room that all of the guys looking at you were ignoring to look at. It's like, look, this is the arc of life. Everybody knows that it's coming. Everybody knows that your looks are going to fade, that you're going to become sick or ill or destitute, that you're going to run out of money, that the people around you are going to die, and all that you're going to be left with is the power of your thoughts, right?

David Laid 42:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 42:09 How much resilience do you have that you can rely on so that when the hard thing happens you have somewhere firm to stand? And if the firmest place that you have to stand is, "I am single digit body fat," you are in for a hard fucking time.

David Laid 42:30 Yeah. Um, any, you know, external metric or just e- anything that you, like, latch onto, uh, you know, whether it be your body fat percentage or your youthful looks that diminish with age that you just get upset-

Chris Williamson 42:44 Even bank account, man.

David Laid 42:45 Yo- yeah, bank account, like, forms of status, like, et cetera. Just, yeah, if you become ... I mean, it's like a Buddhist saying, like, you just become, like, attached to stuff and it's just a problem. It's just not good, but there is an enjoyment in, you know, having, like-... like, a huge bank account or enjoying your looks to a very, very high degree.

Chris Williamson 43:02 Well, don't, don't, don't get me wrong. Like, you need external accolades, right?

David Laid 43:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 43:05 Like, I'm not, I'm not saying that we can, like, dispense with status.

David Laid 43:08 Yeah, there's the primal hi- hierarchical, whatever, that's a legit thing too.

Chris Williamson 43:10 Yeah, of course, of course.

David Laid 43:11 Yeah. Yeah. But it just... I guess, I guess if we put it, like, yeah. Like, that stuff is necessary, useful to, like, certain, like, healthy degrees, but obviously-

Chris Williamson 43:19 Not sufficient. Necessary, but not sufficient.

David Laid 43:23 Yeah, nece- necessary, but not sufficient. And it's just, yeah, I mean, it's, it's like a spectrum of, like, the more you, like, rely on those kind of things for, like, the, like, wellbeing and, like, happiness, it's just, you just, you just run into problems. And it just... And like, like you were saying, like, you wanna be in a state where when all is, like, said and done, and it's just you, that you have, like, something, like, firmer to stand on. So... Yeah.

David Laid 43:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:51 What are your thoughts about the modern world of dating, especially for young guys? Do you think about this much? There's a lot of advice out there for young dudes with regards to dating, especially to do with gym videos, approaching girls in the gym, and the lack thereof, and the challenges of guys approaching and so on and so forth. What's your conception on this?

David Laid 44:12 (sighs) I mean, I guess modern dating, like, the internet has obviously played, like, a massive role, like the whole dating apps, that being a situation. Um... I mean, I think obviously speaking, things like the internet have, like, drastically reduced, like, genuine, like, human, like, discourse, where, like, in the past, a lot more conversations were, like, in person, they were, like, real. Because, like, when, like, two pe- people are, say, they're communicating over text, it's such a narrow dialogue. When you're, like, with someone in person, there's, like, all these just energetic components, intangible, micro facial expressions, like all of that. And that's preferable/arguably needed to have, like, a maximally rich and satisfying and satiating, like, human experience overall with people, like, in any relationship, friendship, S kind of contact. So I think just, like, the simple idea of that, that being reduced due to the introduction of the internet... Although the internet obviously has a lot of benefits, you can meet people around the world, different areas, et cetera, there is, like, that, like, obvious downside. And with that being said, there would be, like, an isolation component as well to, you know, socializing with real people less and then living in your own head and then communicating and just meeting and talking to people on, like, dating apps and stuff, it... And then you could just start downloading and integrating certain just, like, toxic ideologies on male/female intersexual dynamics that could have some tidbits of truth, but without contrasting it and integrating it with your own, like, real experience 'cause you have none because you're just isolated and extracting ideologies online, that that could be just a massive detriment to your dating life, I suppose.

Chris Williamson 45:51 Bang, bang, bang.

David Laid 45:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:52 Dude, I've been harping on about this for so long. I did an interview for, uh, a new, the redone Substack of what used to be Ideas Sleep Furiously, and they've changed the name and I can't remember what it is. Uh, and they did, we did a little interview, and they talked about, um, why is it that men seem to be struggling with the advice that they get online? And remember, for the girls that are listening, you need the advice that men get online to be good, because you are the one that's gonna have to put up with these fucking men.

David Laid 46:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:18 Right? So my point was, if you're chronically online and most of your experiences around male to female interactions have been mediated through the internet, what are the kinds of stories that are the ones that go the most viral online? They're the most egregious, they're the one where some terrible catastrophe happens and the guy comes home and loses his house and his left foot and she, she takes his, like, all of his hairline in the divorce, and that's the story that's gonna go viral.

David Laid 46:48 Yeah, and you can almost parallel this with prescriptions, because if you don't have real, uh, uh, you know, sufficient amount, whatever that means, of, like, real experience with real people and you're just, you know, getting ideologies online or just hearing worst case catastrophic scenarios, et cetera, a lot of, like, um, theoretical frameworks that could be laid forward could, in isolation, in the abstract, make so much sense, and the math could, like, run out and, like, it works out, especially when extreme scenarios are, like, added upon that. And then wh- when it comes to, like, dating advice, just, like, like, what you should say to approach, and this is that, like, the more prescriptions, like, you add on, it just becomes just, like, such a disaster. And, but then people think, "Oh, but how do I do this whole thing if I don't have any, like, prescriptions or, like, know what to say or how, how to go about it," right? But the thing is, paradoxically so, if you, like, lay that, like, to the wayside, right? And then you're, like, around, like, people, like, speaking to people, girls, et cetera, whatever it may be, a certain organic chemistry arises if you would, like, let it arise. But the more weird prescriptions and layers, like, you add on top of that, you're just, like, fucking the whole thing up and it just becomes off. So paradoxically, leaving that to the wayside, your body and your instincts will take over and they'll just, like, know what to do, right?

Chris Williamson 47:58 Yes.

David Laid 47:58 But... So that's almost another way of putting it. The advent and introduction of the internet dating apps, et cetera, has suppressed the natural organic instinct in favor of just weird, toxic, arguably toxic, like, programming with, you know, how to go about things, and that just creates just an, a GMO inorganic disaster. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:17 Yeah, I... So this prescriptions thing, I think we just need to drill this home for the people that maybe aren't familiar with Kapil's work. The point is, if you don't have any real world experience, the only place that you're going to get any tactics from are things that have been told to you that you've never actually come up with in the real world. But if you were to spend... Let's say that you could live for eternity and have an unlimited number of interactions. If what the prescriptions are are accurate, you would inevitably arrive at them in any case. If I gave you a million years to work out and you didn't know it, the, the most effective way to get a bar from the floor overhead in one single movement, you would eventually arise at something close to a snatch.

David Laid 48:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:54 Because it is simply reality and theory coming up together. Konstantin Kisin, the guy that does trigonometry-... quoted this unbelievable line the other day that said, "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're different."

David Laid 49:09 Mm-hmm. Just a thought that I was having as you were saying that is, so you could, like, pair this whole prescription idea like from the dating back to, like, like working out for instance. Like, you could have someone that's never worked out before, right? But they'll sit and they'll learn, like, all, like, the theory and the this, that, et cetera, and, like, what their personal ideal regimen would be, and then come up with that. And then if they try to execute it, if, if they even bother to do so, like, sometimes it will, like, fall through because just their bodies are different, like, how their lifestyles are set up. So, yeah, even prescriptions can be, like, detrimental in something even as simple in the realm of fitness because if you just, like, start, like, doing it, right? If you wanna go all out and be, like, the best of all time, then obviously you're gonna need to follow, like, certain things, but ... Hmm. This coffee-

Chris Williamson 49:53 The problem I have with the, the problem I have generally with Kapil's ... And I, I had this problem when I spoke to Kapil on the show. The issue I have with Kapil's no prescriptions point is that unlimited degrees of freedom allow people to find things through experience. However, you need guidelines and guardrails. Why are we talking about this crisis of masculinity where guys are lost and, and alone? It's because everything has bleu- been blown open. If everything is masculinity, then nothing is masculinity, right?

David Laid 50:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:20 And you go, okay, from first principles, please work out how you are supposed to show up in the world. And you go, dude, that's really, really hard, and you, what? You want me to do that for diet and my role in society, and the way that I should make money, and the way I should interact with my friends, and the way that I should get a girlfriend, and the way that I should become a father, da-da-da-da. Like, it's fucking exhausting.

David Laid 50:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:40 The best way that I've found for this, and this is where I diverge from Kapil's work. The best way that I've found from this is that in the beginning of anything, you need instruction because you have no experience to rely on.

David Laid 50:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:50 You don't want to become dogmatic about the instruction, but you do need to take it. So you explore at the start and then you exploit over time. Do lots of different things, find out what works for you, and then over time once you have learned the rules, you can break the rules. But breaking the rules before you learn the rules is just not playing the game.

David Laid 51:08 Yeah. No, I, I agree with that. I did such a poor job of expressing what I wanted to with that, um, parallel with prescriptions, with working out. But yeah, I mean, obviously for getting, like, into fitness, like, you, you're gonna follow, like, some, like, vague program in general. I think the idea that I was, like, trying to get at is, you're better off, like, taking a random workout program, whatever it may be, just going out, doing it, seeing how you respond to it, just seeing how much you like working out in general. Maybe you don't wanna be a heavyweight bodybuilder. Maybe you just wanna work out a few times a week and get in shape, and that'll, like, satisfy you. But you won't know that unless you actually try. So that's all fine. What I was getting at is, not doing anything, just having, like, all, like, the theory, like, what works out, and then it just not being, like, a practical, like, execution-

Chris Williamson 51:46 Mm.

David Laid 51:46 ... in your actual life is more something like that. But I agree with the nuance, like obviously, like, you can't derive absolutely everything and just know how ... just be, like-

Chris Williamson 51:53 From first principles.

David Laid 51:53 ... work out from first principles. Obviously. Like-

Chris Williamson 51:55 Yeah.

David Laid 51:55 ... when you're a kid, like, you need to be taught language, you need to be able to tie your shoes. Those are prescriptions from a certain point of view.

Chris Williamson 52:00 Yeah.

David Laid 52:00 So, yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:02 That was where I got caught. That was where I got caught with Kapil's stuff. So I did a, a newsletter that I wanted to read to you, uh, from the other week, and I think that this is, this is very, very interesting to me. I've been thinking about it a lot. This is from David Goggins, "It's so easy to be great because most of

Chris Williamson 52:16 the world is weak." "If you are even remotely a savage, you will run these people over. It's all out there for the taking right now." That's Dana White. "Everyone rails against the victim mentality that seems to be sweeping certain areas of the world. I get it, you don't want your town or country or species to go to hell because everyone has forgotten how to take some discomfort or deal with challenges in life. But, on another hand, this rampant fragility is your competitive advantage. The bar has never been set lower. A bit of consistency, a bit of intentionality, a bit of resilience, and a gram of talent will make you into an absolute killer. I also understand that you probably want to raise other people up along with you. Having a greatness stand on the shoulders of the world's fragility may seem exploitative, and I love the idea of not just improving yourself but changing those around you for the better. But there's a limit. Your efforts are multiplied by 10 times when building with the right people and by naught point naught one times when building with the wrong people. If someone refuses to alter their habits or update their worldview or improve their life despite being given all of the tools and encouragement they need by you, then they can stay where they are. It is not your job to drown yourself by trying to keep others afloat who don't want to change." "Humans don't mind hardship. In fact, they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. Modern society has perfected the art of making people not feel necessary." That's Sebastian Junger. "It's easy to be a savage when everyone else is a pussy, but sometimes it's hard to find a sidekick." What do you think about that?

David Laid 53:40 What does that mean, that last part, sometimes with sidekick?

Chris Williamson 53:43 That if you're with the right people, your efforts are multiplied by 10 times, and if they're with the wrong people then they're restricted, basically.

David Laid 53:53 Yeah, I mean, that can go back to, like, the, the simple saying of like, you're like the average of like the five people that you surround yourself with and you gain exponential momentum in the direction that you're going with. So if you're with a suboptimal set of people with values that aren't in your best interest, you're gonna be accelerated, like, in a accelerated fashion going in the wrong direction.

Chris Williamson 54:09 What about this balance between fragility of the modern world being a competitive advantage?

David Laid 54:15 Well, I think with a lot of those people, like the Goggin's and the few that you said like that, it's a very, like, stereotypically uber-masculine kind of, like, mindset, which is, like, fine, right? But I feel like sometimes that can be taken to an absolute, like, ridiculous, like, extreme, but the right amount of that is like a, like, like, a good thing, like-

Chris Williamson 54:35 What are you aiming for? What's an integrated version of that to you?

David Laid 54:42 I like the idea of having an indestructible mindset, being able to overcome, like, obstacles and adversities and having that, like, just, like, that just focus intensity, but I think that sometimes you can get ...... just exclusively, like, fixated on that. Like for example, with David Goggins, he went through just, like, extremely, like, traumatic stuff. Like, I've, like, heard him on so many podcasts and, like, I've, like, like, like, audiobook, like a good amount of, like, his books, so I know, like, the backstory of the dad, et cetera. It's really just, like, horrible stuff. And for him, just all the experience and everything that he's gone through, just in order for him to be able to, like, thrive and come out of that, he needed to adopt a certain kind of just, like, just indestructible godlike mindset, which he did achieve.

Chris Williamson 55:39 It's a coping mechanism.

David Laid 55:40 Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. It's like a coping mechanism, in the same way that you could look at, um, me working hard in the gym when I was younger and say, "Oh, that's, like, so admirable." But in reality, the fuel wasn't, like the most, like positive thing.

Chris Williamson 55:51 Yep.

David Laid 55:52 So, there's ... You could make a semi-ish kind of like parallel to the David Goggins situation. So because of what he went through, he simply ... He needed to adapt that way. It was a necessary coping mechanism. And his situation was so extreme and he talked about it just so poe- like, poetically, with just so much, like, passion and intensity, that a lot of people when they read that, they resonate with it, like tremendously, especially if they're, like lacking that. If they're lacking just, like, the discipline and that kind of stuff, hearing someone like David Goggins give you the, the, the theoretical framework of being able to overcome stuff, combined with his own painfully visceral experience of it, it'll just give you goosebumps hearing it.

Chris Williamson 56:28 Mm-hmm.

David Laid 56:28 And if you have a depletion or lack of that in, like, your own character, you're gonna naturally gravitate to, like, someone like him and you're gonna-

Chris Williamson 56:34 It'll fulfill you.

David Laid 56:34 Yeah, exactly. You're gonna get the benefit in the same way that people would be inspired by me working out when I was younger and that would benefit them, even though the fuel source pushing me wasn't, like, the most cleanest form of gasoline. So, although mindsets like that are extremely, extremely useful and powerful in, like, certain circumstances, but I feel like ... 'Cause I mean, I feel like it, for like a David Goggins situation, like, like at a certain point, like, he might even go, like, deeper when it comes to just his, just like, character arc, just like his, like, development as, like, a human being. I just had the parallel, for example, with someone like Mike Tyson, like when he was, like super young, just, like, indestructive, like, super villain. Like, and as, as he's, like, gotten o- older, like, a lot of his, like, temperament has just, like, simply transformed. Like, he was so aggressive and just intense, like, when he was, like, younger because ... I don't know his full situation, but maybe it was a form of coping mechanism, maybe it was just in his DNA to be like that, but he was just like that. And then over time, he just mellowed out in a certain kind of way. And that's not better or worse of mellowing out. That's just, like, the arc that he's going through. But then you could say, like, if David Goggins ... Um, not David G- ... If, um, Mike Tyson was that exact same way that he was when he was younger into his old age where he is right now, you'd almost look at that and be like, there's like, like there, there's still a fixation in a previous behavioral pattern that's no longer-

Chris Williamson 57:57 He hasn't transcended-

David Laid 57:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:58 ... and included. Well, I, I think the point here is that kind of almost, like, a resentment that very visceral, powerful, um, scarcity mindset is an unbelievably potent fuel.

David Laid 58:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:17 But it's really fucking toxic.

David Laid 58:19 Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't ... It can be toxic in certain instances. I don't say ... I don't, I don't think it's, like, purely, like, toxic, like in-

Chris Williamson 58:25 It's toxic to you. It's toxic to the inside. Like, yes-

David Laid 58:29 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:29 ... it's very, very good.

David Laid 58:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:30 Like, being driven by a sense of insufficiency-

David Laid 58:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:32 ... can cause people to do unbelievable things, right? It ... Almost all of the high performers that I know are not driven by what it looks like from the outside and what it should be proselytized. It's this beautiful balance of, you know, fulfilling the, the logo, speaking forward, and manifesting your essence. It's not. They're running away from something which makes them feel insufficient. There is a voice inside the head that is a disparaging parent, it's a bully at school, it's a teacher that didn't believe in them, it's an abandoned sibling. Something inside of them is saying, "You are not enough. The only way that you can make yourself enough is to perform out there in the world. And if you perform well enough, maybe finally the world will accept you and you'll be worthy of love." That is an energy that fucking every single high performer on the planet except for, like, three people can resonate with, because running away from something that you fear is an unbelievably potent fuel, and running towards something that you want comparatively is less so. But if you use the fuel that pushes you away from something that you fear for too long, you will end up having malignant coping strategies, and it will burn everything that's inside of you as well. Fucking powerful-

David Laid 59:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:49 ... but it's gonna make that engine run at a very high rate.

David Laid 59:51 It's powerful, and you'll need to use that fuel for a certain period of time when it's needed, but then it's important or ideal f- for your best interest to wanna just, like, transcend-

Chris Williamson 59:59 Right.

David Laid 59:59 ... and, like, go forward.

Chris Williamson 1:00:00 Correct. Another quote. So this will be ... Everyone will have seen this by now 'cause the Hormozi episode will be out, but it wasn't out before this. Um, what he was talking about, as you said, was, um, some of the challenges and the setbacks that people have, uh, and how that could give them the justification for maybe not being where they could be. And he said this really great quote, which was, "If you have suffered from sexism your entire life, if you have suffered from racism your entire life, you would be absolutely justified in not being at the place where somebody who didn't have those disadvantages is. However, the advantage that you do have is that unlike me or you or Hormozi, you can be a role model to those people who did have those problems, because I can guarantee you that there is someone who had it worse and did it better." And he said that, and I was like, "Holy fuck. That is so good." Because for me, somebody that went through challenges as a kid, uh, who had a bit of a chip on his shoulder about not being in ... Uh, not feeling like I was supported and having to do a lot of this work myself. Like, I had to fucking pick myself up by my bootstraps. First principle is, "Okay, what do I want to value?"... how do I want to do this? Let's build a thing on my own twice. And getting rid of that, like, getting rid of that chip that was on my shoulder without using it as the bitter, like, "I'm doing this to prove the fucking bullies wrong. I'm doing this to prove the people that didn't believe in me wrong. I'm doing this to prove the place that I came from, that didn't have the big enough vision to help me, wrong." The way that that became a f- f- ... was made, alchemized to feel more holistic, was that I thought, "Okay, well, there's other people that are going to be feeling this too. There's other people that are going to go through these challenges. Not only can I beat the setbacks that I feel like I had, but I can also help other people from get past ... to get past them too." And I can be like, "Look, here's the pitfalls. Here's how you expedite success. Not only did this thing not get me, but it's not gonna get you either." And that's the best way, I think, to transcend challenges and traumas that you've had in your past. Not only do you beat it, but you help everybody else to beat it as well.

David Laid 1:02:19 Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I completely agree. It's like the tipping scale of you could either have it lean in the, in the toxic, like, resentful-like direction, or you could optimize and leverage it in like a-

Chris Williamson 1:02:29 Benevolent.

David Laid 1:02:29 ... greater scale, benevolent, positive-like way. That's definitely the way to go.

Chris Williamson 1:02:35 What

Chris Williamson 1:02:37 do you want to ... How do you want to serve the world now? Like, you've got creative director at Gymshark, whatever you are, y- your new job role. You have a massive amount of reach. You have, as far as I can tell, the raw materials to be able to go and do pretty much anything you want, along with a shit ton of time.

David Laid 1:02:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:58 How do you wanna serve the world now?

David Laid 1:03:02 (sighs) I'm not enticely - I mean, not enticely - I'm not entirely precisely sure. Still working on that exact, like, agenda and, like, figuring out, like, the most optimal way to do that. But, like, the, the ideas just came in my head is like, for example, when, when they talk about with like, when you're, like, raising, like, children, like, when you're, like, a parent, like, the kids, like, hear nothing that you say and, like, see everything that you do. It's almost like the person, like, that you are is, like, what subcommunicates at the highest level, like, to people. Because basically if, if, if you're, if you're a certain kind of ... I- i- if you live or exist in the right kind of l- way, like, whatever that means, like, as, like, a parent to your kid, then the kid gets, like, has, like, a healthy development as opposed to doing everything incorrectly but saying, like, all the right things. So for me, even though I don't know, like, precisely what I'm gonna do, like, in a tangible fashion to just, like-

Chris Williamson 1:03:55 Mm-hmm.

David Laid 1:03:55 ... help society, the world at scale, as I'm figuring that out, like, the thing that I'm putting emphasis and priority on is just, like, like, living in congruence or just feeling just, like, optimized and just, like, aligned with, like, with j- just how I am as a person and, like, how I operate on just, like, a daily basis, even, like, with the most, like, subtlest little things.

Chris Williamson 1:04:18 What's that higher sense of self? What, what are the things that you value the most when you're operating at your highest level? What do you genuinely take pride in?

David Laid 1:04:33 Um, well, like, lately, for a good amount of time now, it's just been, I guess, forms of, like, ar- like, artistic expression, like, in a sense, whether it be, like, something as, like, simple as, like, making, like, a YouTube video that's, like, like, cinematic or well-made, like, in a certain area. Or just coloring and, like, editing just, like, videos quickly. I don't know, just, like, like, just, like, simple things like that. I don't know, like, lately, I'm finding a very high degree of just, like, intrinsic - my bad - intrinsic satiation with doing, I guess, just artistic things-

Chris Williamson 1:05:12 Mm-hmm.

David Laid 1:05:12 ... in a way.

Chris Williamson 1:05:13 Mm-hmm.

David Laid 1:05:13 And, like, in, in the ma-

Chris Williamson 1:05:13 What about personally? Like, what is it that you, when you show up for yourself, like, what are you most proud of? So I'll give you some of mine. So it's when I tell the truth. Like, when I tell the truth is the most important thing. And-

David Laid 1:05:26 Yeah. I mean, f- for me, like, when you initially said that, that was, like, o- one of the first things that came to mind. But, but yeah, no, I mean, th- that's like, like, that's, like, a huge one too. And, like, all, like, micro, like, little situations 'cause it's so easy to just, like, like, kinda, like-

Chris Williamson 1:05:39 Tiny little lies-

David Laid 1:05:39 ... bend it, like twist it-

Chris Williamson 1:05:40 ... tiny little admissions-

David Laid 1:05:40 ... tellin' them little lies. Exactly, and you could, like, feel and, like, sense all of those. So yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:45 What else? You need to tell the truth. What else do you need to do? Come on. To be the person that you want to be, what else do you need to do?

David Laid 1:05:58 I don't have a precise answer at the moment, but I feel like with a baseline of just, like, honesty in all, like, the micro and macro situations, like, that, like, covers, like, a good amount of it and, like, spawns out into other things. But I feel like that's a pretty all-encompassing one.

Chris Williamson 1:06:14 I think that's the foundation.

David Laid 1:06:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:15 I think you're right. But, you know, for me, for instance, like, vulnerability, learning to be increasingly vulnerable, which, again, everything is a form of truth, right?

David Laid 1:06:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:06:22 And me saying that I show up and be, um, like, compassionate to my friends, that's a form of truthfulness, right?

David Laid 1:06:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:06:28 It's, like, trying to be your best self going forward, being vulnerable. Um, th- for me, leaning into difficult things, for instance. Like, one of the problems of having a increasing r- an, uh, increasing number of resources and, like, material success or whatever is that success can make you soft and it can make you lazy and it can make you rely on other people, uh, which is something that I've managed to avoid. But I've managed to avoid it mostly through a combination of neuroticism and, like, obsession, not through the, you know, transcended no prescription, "I do not just ... I simply don't want it." It's like being fixed by something which is also still a relatively toxic fuel. Um, I'm impressed by you, man. I think that you're a very impressive individual. I think that the trajectory that you've been on from where you were to where you are is fantastic. I'm really, really glad that you've got the background that you have. And the reason that I've, like, tried to drill so much into the psychological side of what we've spoken about today is that from the outside, the many million followers on Instagram, the, you know, 50 to 60 million play video of the body transformation, it gives people not only a preconception about the person that you are, but it makes them presume that you would be locked into a particular type of, uh, life path. The same way as, I don't know, like, U2 releases a new album and all of their old fans hate it. They go, "Well, look, guess what? We like it. This is the direction that we're going in now."

David Laid 1:08:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:06 Right? And this is the getting to the top of the mountain and looking across and going, "I think I'm on the wrong fucking mountain. Shit."

David Laid 1:08:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:15 "I have to go down. I need to transcend and include." Uh, I- I'm really, really glad that you're doing what you're doing. I'm really glad that you're on the trajectory that you're on.

David Laid 1:08:22 Yeah, I'm excited to see where it goes. It's an adventure.

Chris Williamson 1:08:25 Where should people go if they want to keep

Chris Williamson 1:08:26 up to date with the stuff that you do?

David Laid 1:08:28 Um, just, um, my YouTube channel mainly. Just search David Laid and, yeah, that's basically it. Like, my Instagram, same thing, David Laid. And, uh, if you guys wanna have, like, a very natural and healthy and optimized pre-workout, you could also buy my pre-workout at, um, euphoriapre.com. And yeah, that's where you can find me.

Chris Williamson 1:08:47 David, I appreciate you. Thank you for today.

David Laid 1:08:49 My pleasure.

Chris Williamson 1:08:50 What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.