Skip to content
Modern WisdomModern Wisdom

Why Smart People Make Stupid Money Decisions - Dave Ramsey

Dave Ramsey is a personal finance expert, podcaster, and an author. The rules of money aren’t complicated. Make more than you spend, live below your means. So why is it still so hard to get right? What are the real keys to building wealth, and how do we stop sabotaging ourselves along the way? Expect to learn why you need to become ruthless to become successful, why Gen Z & Millennials face a uniquely different financial landscape than Boomers or Gen X did, the biggest psychological errors people make when it comes to thinking about wealth and business building, how to build a business you love, Why it’s so hard for people to change their financial behavior even when they know what to do, if Is the cost of living crisis a spending crisis or an earning crisis, and much more… - 00:00 Dave's Line Of Work 04:33 Do People Need To Be Ruthless To Become Successful? 09:05 Is Higher Education A Waste Of Time? 15:50 Working For A Business Vs Building Your Own 19:31 Traits To Have To Be Successful 27:07 Building Momentum After A Difficult Time 42:37 Traps That People Fall Into For Wealth And Business Building 52:56 Principles Of Building A Business 1:03:41 Why Finding And Hiring Good Staff Is Fundamental 1:10:23 Reason's Why Money Problems Are Symptomatic 1:14:08 Why Is It Hard For People To Change Financial Behaviour? 1:21:38 How Social Media Distorts Our Understanding Of Success 1:24:05 Is The Cost Of Living A Spending Or Earning Crisis? 1:32:25 Dave's New Book - Get up to $50 off the RP Hypertrophy App at https://rpstrength.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM) Get 5 Free Travel Packs, Free Liquid Vitamin D, and more from AG1 at https://ag1.info/modernwisdom Get the Whoop 4.0 for free and get your first month for free at https://join.whoop.com/modernwisdom - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Chris WilliamsonhostDave Ramseyguest
Apr 24, 20251h 32mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 4:33

    Dave's Line Of Work

    1. CW

      Let's talk about, uh, both of our favorite topics, Dr. John Delony.

    2. DR

      And it's his favorite topic. (laughs)

    3. CW

      It- it is... (laughs) Oh, man. I, um, I- I-

    4. DR

      What a star, though. I mean, he has blown up. He- he's-

    5. CW

      I-

    6. DR

      ...brilliant, he's quick, uh, and he's helping a lot of people. We're real proud of him.

    7. CW

      I have no idea how I wasn't familiar with him until relatively recently. I guess the internet's a big place, right? And, um... But he's great. He's- he came out to see me here in Austin. We immediately had that did-we-just-become-best-friends moment. And, uh, yeah he's- he's phenomenal. His insights are great. He seems to have... How can I put this? He's got kind of a Ramsey, uh, signature to him in a way. Uh, quite firm, uh, I would say. Uh, sometimes bordering on scary.

    8. DR

      (laughs)

    9. CW

      Um, uh, s- m- moderately intimidating, but also, uh, sort of warm and sort of d- feels like he's doing it. Like a- a particularly brash uncle that needs to give you the sort of kick in the ass that you needed.

    10. DR

      Yeah, that loves ya.

    11. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DR

      And, uh, but he'll tell you the truth, and that- that's what we all try to do around Ramsey and, uh, portray the both of those things. A, we love you, and B, that means we have to tell you the truth, uh, for your own good 'cause we care about you and we want you to win. And continuing to do that, um, horrible thing that's to yourself is silly. And so, whatever it is, whether it's John or any of the rest of us, but John certainly has fallen into that fold, and he's- he is brilliant. He's very articulate. I mean, I'm in the third meeting with him in our, uh, we're- we're talking about, you know, interviewing and talking about, uh, turning him into a Ramsey personality, and he's so quick on the draw. I went, "You can do this. All we gotta do is put you on with a microphone and start answering questions." He didn't even know what it was. And I'm like, "Look, the... I've done talk radio for 30 years. You- you draw fire and re-holster before the bullet hits 'em." I mean, it's quick. And so, uh, he- he's really, really good and he does care deeply.

    13. CW

      How would you describe what you do? Let's say that someone meets you and they're not familiar with you. You're at a cocktail party or you're- you're at a gathering of some kind, and says, "Oh, David, t- t- tell me about what you do for work."

    14. DR

      (laughs)

    15. CW

      How do you des- how do you (laughs) , uh, coalesce the, uh, myriad of different things that you've got going on?

    16. DR

      You know, I- I... These days I would just tell them, you know, "I'm the CEO of Ramsey Solutions and we put on a bunch of podcasts and a bunch of curriculum and have a bunch of best-selling books and, um, you know, YouTube and all that stuff, and- and I'm one of the people that does all that as well as be the CEO." So, it's kinda like that but, I mean, it's- there's 1,100 of us in the building and there's 500 people doing tech all day long, so... Uh, and I've never written a line of code in my life, so that's freaking intimidating. But that- that's all part of the picture, but I- I don't, you know... Uh, I don't- I don't- I don't wanna try to one-up somebody at a cocktail party. (laughs)

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    18. DR

      That's not... But, uh, yeah. The elevator pitch, if you will, that would be it, I guess, yeah.

    19. CW

      Is that where you've imagined that you might end up when you just started doing little talk radio, coaching people, speeches in a bad suit, as you said?

    20. DR

      Yeah. Um, I, uh, uh... You know, I- I thi- I think what I did realize, 'cause I've been- I've been entrepreneurial my whole life and I- I did see the size of the need. And getting people out of debt is not exactly a niche market. I mean, it's massive. We always laugh and say me and Jenny Craig got a big job, right? And so, it's massive. It's everybody, right? And so, I- I saw the size of it. What I didn't know when I was, you know, 32 years old and, uh, opened the first little 800 square foot office and so forth, I didn't have any idea how much work it was gonna be. And I didn't have any idea how much, um, I was gonna have to learn, and, uh, of course, the rate of change in the marketplace, because in those days there wasn't internet, um, you know, and so talk radio, AM talk radio, and we were on FM talk radio when it first came out as well. Um, and then on satellite, on XM and Sirius when they launched those satellites s- as two separate companies originally and later combined. Uh, but I mean, so we're- we're just dabbling in the front edges of whatever was going on in the marketplace and trying to get to all these people, but to- to scale the thing. Now, I look back 35 years, I- I was really... I had- I had no idea how much work it was gonna be and that I would need 1,100 people in the building to do it. I- I just thought, "You know, there's a lot of people who need help, I'll go help 'em."

  2. 4:33 – 9:05

    Do People Need To Be Ruthless To Become Successful?

    1. DR

    2. CW

      Do you think that people need to be ruthless to become successful? Is that true in your experience?

    3. DR

      I would have to define ruthless carefully if I did that. Um, they have to be, uh, passionate. Uh, they have to be enthusiastic. Uh, do they have to slit other peoples' throat to become successful, if that's ruthless? No, you don't. Uh, as a matter of fact, my experience is quite the contrary. The more people I help, uh, even people that are in the same space we're in, um, uh, a- and, you know, the more times I can assist somebody, a- a- a young person in one of these content spaces- spaces and they come around Ramsey and, you know, we'll show 'em what to do, show 'em what we're doing, we don't have any trade secrets, this is how we do what we do, anything. And then show 'em a technology or a piece of software we're using that they didn't know about. Anything I can do like that, I'm not worried about it, 'cause a rising tide raises all ships. I'm really not gonna go out of business because somebody launches a, uh, somebody in their 20s or 30s launches a very successful YouTube financial whatever, and there's a bunch of 'em. There- there's several really sharp people doing that stuff right now, you included, of course. And, um, so, uh, yeah, anything we can do to help. I don't have to cut their throat to win, uh, but I do have to bring it. I've gotta drive the ball hard into the end zone. It doesn't show up there by itself. So that part of ruthless, yeah, I would go with, but not the taking down of others part.

    4. CW

      A positive sum mindset is, uh, a good idea in business in your opinion?

    5. DR

      Uh, it's the only thing that works, uh, because...You know, I've, um... You know, for instance, uh, we made a decision early in our career that other people in our space that we disagreed with, um, you know, I could talk about the ideas all day long and not even mention the person. There is no reason. So, like the very first book I had come out, Financial Peace, it hit the New York Times, and there was another little book, uh, that week or- or that month that was coming along. And it was this lady, and I'd never heard of her. Nobody had ever heard of her. But she was, she was running behind us, and I'm kinda looking over my shoulder going, "I'm a brand new guy and I got, I got, I got somebody chasing me from behind right here." And then all of a sudden, uh, Suze Orman goes on Oprah, and oh, she just exploded, and she zoomed past us so much all we got was her dust. And, um, and- and Suze and I have both helped a lot of people. And, uh, she and I don't agree on a lot of things, but I- I don't speak ill of her ever. Uh, and because I actually don't think ill of her, uh, too. Um, but again, there's odds and ends within the financial spectrum we might disagree with, but there's no reason for me to trash Suze Orman to, in order to build myself up. That's just not necessary. So we just decided, yeah, positive sum game is- is the way to go. And you know what? It's worked out really well.

    6. CW

      I think people can tell. Uh, you know, it seems to me that anybody that's been in business for a sufficiently long time and hasn't realized that if you start to screw people over, eventually it comes back to get you... I don't know whether it's karmic retribution. I don't know whether it's you're just rolling the dice, uh, interpersonally in the same way so many times that eventually somebody cottons on and it's the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person. But people get what they deserve in business, I've found.

    7. DR

      Yeah, and- and sometimes it works out positively. I mean I- I can think of two guys in the radio business that ear- in the early days hated our show and just trashed us in the marketplace. They said, "We'll never put you on one of our radio stations. You're just awful. And you're country fried and you, it's, you're not entertaining."

    8. CW

      (laughs)

    9. DR

      And, you know, they would just insult us, and we would go to these conventions and we would say, "Oh, so-and-so. Don't... Just stay away from him. He's m- he's like angry about the whole thing." And, uh, then, you know, they're, they work for big corporations. They get fired, and they're out there doing consulting, and both of them ended up working for us, uh, before it was over. And so, uh, th- obviously they came around and didn't work for us whil- while hating us, but-

    10. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    11. DR

      ... uh, but- but, you know, over the years I wore them down is what it amounted to. And then when they were left vulnerable and we could use the influence that they had by helping us get on some other radio stations, um, and- and they had actually had a true change of heart, not 'cause I gave them a check.

    12. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    13. DR

      Um, but it was fun. It was kinda fun. It was kinda looked back. I'm like, "Wow, that worked out pretty well."

    14. CW

      Dave Ramsey killed me with kindness. Who would've thought it?

    15. DR

      (laughs)

    16. CW

      (laughs) Um,

  3. 9:05 – 15:50

    Is Higher Education A Waste Of Time?

    1. CW

      yeah, so one of the current trends or two of the current trends that I see that are very popular amongst some of my friends but a lot of the internet. One is that, uh, college or university in the UK is a waste of time, that any sort of formal education doesn't give you that much of an advantage, that it's kind of a net negative. Uh, and the second one being that given that you can work from anywhere remotely, that most people can solo entrepreneur their way to some degree of independent ownership of what it is that they do, uh, that a nine-to-five is, um, is quite often derogated in- in one form or another. What's your thoughts on the usefulness of f- formal education for people who are thinking, "Hey, I wanna be successful. I wanna feel secure. I wanna be able to build a life that's good for me." And then what do you make of the, uh, nine-to-fives are for suckers, you should always go and work for yourself camp?

    2. DR

      Uh, hi- higher ed has made a mess of itself. It did two things that has completely damaged it to the point that the pendulum is swinging all the way over to where you're talking about. Used to be everyone needed a college degree. Now no one needs a college degree. It's swung, but... And part of that's just that higher ed's just been stupid. The two things that they did was, um, number one, they drove people deeply in debt, uh, that- that ne- uh, that could never get an ROI on that degree. Uh, I mean, the- the- the amount that they're charging and then, uh, and- and facilitating trillions of dollars of student loan debt now, with an S, trillions. Wow. Um, you know, they- they just screwed people over by overcharging. The second thing that's kind of a subset of that or a sister to that is they- they- they presented people with ridiculous degree fields that absolutely have no chance of having any utilitarian value in the marketplace. So we always laugh and say, "You get a degree in left-handed puppetry and you go 200 grand in debt to do it." Well, both are useless. I mean, it's just silly or left, you know, German polka history. You know, what are you gonna do with that? Be a barista? I mean, this is just dumb. And so, uh, but higher ed presented that as a valid use of those dollars, a valid use of studying. A valid use of your brain cells to actually get a degree in something absolutely asinine. Um, and so that- that- that has caused people to throw the whole baby out with the bath water and say, "Okay. Well, an accounting degree is of no value." Well, that's dumb. Of course, an accounting degree is of value. It would... You would learn how to do accounting, you know, and- and there you, therefore you could be a CPA. Hello. You know, and so that's, you know, if you wanna get a law degree, you- you- if you're gonna be a lawyer, you're gonna ... You know, I hope my doctor actually studies-

    3. CW

      (laughs)

    4. DR

      ... before he cuts me. You know what I mean? So this idea that all academia is needs to be thrown out and is- is ludicrous is also ridiculous. So, you know, we just tell people, "Buy. Get- get a good buy on your education and study something useful."So don't pay 10x, what you need to do, to get a marketing degree. Uh, go to the, you know, you're in Austin, go to the University of Texas, right, uh, which is a great school. It's not that stinkin expensive. It's an in-state school and it's probably 12, $14,000 a year tuition. And, uh, or you can go over to some crazy thing that's got a brand name on it and pay 80 grand a year for basically the same degree. Well, that's dumb. Don't do that. And then d- and then study something that's useful. So I- I'm-

    5. CW

      Just on-

    6. DR

      ... big on education.

    7. CW

      Just on that point there, um, I learned from Scott Galloway that students who leave their university in the top quintile, I think, uh, get the best jobs regardless of which university they go to. So basically what you should be trying to do is track the university level. Also, you should be thinking about how expensive is this going to be, but if you are a, a, a, a pretty smart kid, going to a university where you're going to be one of the smartest in the class is a really good idea. Going to a university where you're gonna be 30th percentile, 40th percentile down, that actually is less predictive of you coming out and getting a better job.

    8. DR

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      So I thought that was a-

    10. DR

      That's interesting, and-

    11. CW

      ... another interesting twist.

    12. DR

      I'll, I'll add to that and go, the job you get when you're 22 coming out of undergrad is irrelevant. What matters is what happened 10 years later.

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. DR

      What, where are you when you're 32? Now, the difference in two t- two students of where they are when they're 22 and 32. You start 'em at 22, they start the exact same career field, they come from the same university, and they end up in two dramatically different places. Translation, the degree didn't cause it, the individual did.

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. DR

      The hustle, the perseverance, the scrappiness, the grit, the I will not be denied, the, the, what we were talking about earlier, the, you know, s- that version of ruthless that's not throat cutting. You know, I'm, I'm gonna put the freakin' ball in the end zone. That's who g- You're the secret sauce, not your degree. Degrees don't make people successful. They put tools in the belts of people that were gonna be successful anyway. So I use my statistics class that I took 40 years ago, uh, almost every week in the, uh, you know, running Ramsey. I actually look at, you know, the data coming in. I use the accounting, the classes, the multiple accounting classes I took to, to get a business degree at the University of Tennessee 40 years ago. I use it almost every week here. So there's the tools in my belt. Did those things cause Dave Ramsey? No! No, they didn't cause this. They're just something that was just a, a, a good saw, a good hammer to do the work with. And so what we need to teach people is to, uh, how to scrap and how to have grit and how to get up and leave the cave, kill something and drag it home, but then give 'em a good weapon to kill something and drag it home with. And that's what education's for. So where you go to school, there is not a single piece of data anywhere that says where you went to school is correlated with success. As a matter of fact, 76% of the CEOs of public, of the top 500, the S&P 500 publicly traded companies are public school graduates. They didn't go to Harvard or Yale.

    17. CW

      Mm.

    18. DR

      76%. So that has, it's, so it's got to do with, you know, again, the individual. So we teach kids, "Hey, go be somebody and get you some tools," but don't go, "Oh, I've got a degree." You know, I had some guy come into my office a few years ago working for us. He's like, "I got," he had more degrees than a thermometer and he's like-

    19. CW

      (laughs)

    20. DR

      ... "Well, people pay out here, they pay 100, they pay $100,000 more than you're paying for this." And I'm like, "Dude, you work for a small business. We don't respect degrees. What we respect is effort and what we respect is results. And so your raise here is effective when you are."

  4. 15:50 – 19:31

    Working For A Business Vs Building Your Own

    1. DR

    2. CW

      What about the working for a business versus building your own?

    3. DR

      Uh, I've been working for myself my, just about my whole life. So I'm a huge, um, advocate of starting and running your own thing. I, I love that. And I love that the, um, the, the, this huge upheaval of, uh, uprising of entrepreneurism and start something and side hustle and all of that, um, uh, because of the ease of access into the marketplace with the digital tools we have now, but the 20-somethings, the Zs and the Millennials, uh, they're the most entrepreneurial generations I've ever seen. I'm a, I'm a classic Boomer, but I've got a ton of the Zs. I got probably s- 500, 600 of the Zs working on my team, and they are an incredible generation. Uh, they're very entrepreneurial, they're very passionate, they're very mission driven. They question everything, which is what it takes to win in business. Uh, and, and I just, I l- they, they question, you know, why, why do we do this? They don't just assume... Boomers just assumed that somebody knew what they were doing. Uh, Z doesn't assume that 'cause they grew up with a magic wand in their hand, they could push a button and stuff showed up on their doorstep. So they don't assume that anybody knows what they're doing, which is awesome. So I'm big on that. But should everyone be in business for themselves? No. No, I mean, I meet plenty of people that, you know, the way they're wired, the, their, their personality, the way they look at stuff, uh, you know, the, they, they'll do great. And you can get with an organization and be a part of an organization and be very entrepreneurial and, and be a key part of that and bring all those same skills without being a solopreneur, uh, with your iPhone in your mother's basement. You don't have to do that in order to be entrepreneurial and be successful. You can take those same passions and skills-

    4. CW

      Mm.

    5. DR

      ... into the marketplace if you find the right organization. I like to think our building's full of 'em, um, 'cause I don't really want people here that are just doing a J-O-B.

    6. CW

      Do Gen Z and Millennials face a uniquely different financial landscape than Boomers or Gen X did?

    7. DR

      Uh, they're much, uh, Zs are much more serious, uh, the ones that are. I gotta qualify that. There's two t- Zs, there's no middle ground. There's two types, awesome and sucks.

    8. CW

      I, I thought you might, I thought you might bring this up. Yeah.

    9. DR

      Yeah. It's, uh, and so, th- like taking calls on the Ramsey show, we get a Z on the air. They- they've got, they've, they've studied all our stuff, they know our steps, they know exactly what to do, and they're just calling-

    10. CW

      Yeah.

    11. DR

      ... in for some clarification or nuance 'cause they're already, they're already on the bike riding, baby. I mean, they're going.

    12. CW

      Yeah.

    13. DR

      ...uh, 'cause they're very serious-minded, very focused, the ones that are. And, uh, they're gonna have unbelievable wealth as a result because A, they're starting early and two, they've got this singular focus, uh, that they're not distracted by everything shiny. Where like boomers, you know, you think about, uh, you know, the movies in the '80s and stuff, Greed is Good, Gordon Gekko, and all that.

    14. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    15. DR

      You know, boomers were about acquisition and flash and the big car and the Rolex. Uh, Zs don't give a crap. They wanna get it done and they wanna stack some cash and the ones that are on it. And, and so I- I- again, they're very easy to teach, uh, because you're not having to light them on fire. They're already on fire. You just gotta point them at something and, and then pull the trigger, right? And, and so it's a lot easier than r- lighting wet wood. And so I, I, I love... Again, I just... I've got a huge respect for them. I enjoy working with them and I like arguing with them 'cause they, they bring some, they bring some good arguments and th- they... 'cause they question everything.

    16. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    17. DR

      "Why you say that, Ramsey? Who you think you are? I don't care if 20 million people listen to you every day. I don't care."

    18. CW

      (laughs)

    19. DR

      "I wanna know. I'm, I'm 19 freaking years old and I'm gonna question that you have any sense at all, Ramsey." And that- that's fun and it makes good radio too.

  5. 19:31 – 27:07

    Traits To Have To Be Successful

    1. CW

      You mentioned before, uh, some of the predictive traits that somebody coming out of university or a, a, a young adult would have. If you were to design a successful human, somebody that's going to go on to become wealthy, independent, be able to forge the sort of life, uh, from a financial perspective and from a, a sort of a commercial s- perspective that most people want to, what would be the traits that you would give them? What would be the sort of things that you would bless them with?

    2. DR

      Hmm. Well, that's a w- beautiful question. (laughs) I'd have to think on that for about a week. Um, off the cuff, which is probably not a great answer, but that's only- only option we got here. Um, I... W- when I made my first fortune, I was a, I was a millionaire before I was, uh, 26 and then I lost everything in the next two and a half years. Uh, that guy is no longer here. Uh, that no... I not only went broke, I was broken. And so the arrogant little twerp, uh, got the snot beat out of him is what it amounts to. And so, um, I'm still very confident, uh, but i- I'm not... I- I was very me-centered. Again, Jaguars and Rolexes and so on. Uh, a- and, um, a- and I didn't get joy from that even before I went broke. The joy I've gotten in the following 30 years serving others, helping others, has far exceeded any acquisition of anything or any, uh, number on the net worth balance sheet. Um, and so the first thing I would tell them to do is learn how to serve, to be other-centered instead of self-centered. There's greater joy in it, you're very attractive, the marketplace will eat it up, and the m- money will come as a byproduct. But if you make money the target, it doesn't come as a byproduct.

    3. CW

      What does that look like structurally or tactically? How do you implement that?

    4. DR

      Well, w- what I'm asking is... Think about if you go, uh, uh, uh, the ma... Take about a macro version of you going into a real fine dining establishment and you got... My wife and I had a nice dinner the other night with an incredible service. And the guy brought over the somm and we picked out an incredible bottle of wine and he talked us through the, the, these, uh, James Beard selection, right, and the whole thing. Man, we left there... That guy was part of our family. He served us. We didn't learn about him or his kids. We didn't wanna hear about his goals in life. Uh, we didn't have a chat about whatever. We got food and wine and he took care of us. And we... You know what we did? We left a mammoth tip-

    5. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DR

      ... to say thank you.

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DR

      And my friend Rabbi Daniel Lapin says that when you serve your customers well, uh, they give you certificates of appreciation with presidents' faces on them. And, uh, Blanchard says that profit is the applause your customers give you after you did a good show, not before. A- and so, um, profit comes when you serve. You can't beat money away if you love people en masse. And the more of them you love and the more you help with their lives and with their dreams, money will stack. You'll have a basement full of money. It's crazy. It just comes at you. You can't keep it away. And so... But I was the opposite in my early days. That's why I brought that up. I was going trying to get money.

    9. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    10. DR

      And the byproduct was I got none, and I didn't get happiness either, and I didn't get joy, and I wasn't fulfilled, and I got some stuff, but if you get enough stuff, it's just stuff.

    11. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DR

      And he with the most toys when he dies is dead, you know? So, I mean, it's just... What is it? And so y- uh, this, this existential crisis, if you will. And so the serving of others would be the first thing and be other-centered and let profit take care of itself. Uh, the second thing I would add, uh, if we were gonna put ingredients into this individual is, uh, somehow I would install work ethic, uh, with seven doses of grit and perseverance.

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. DR

      Um, so I, uh... You know, I had one guy come in here and he said, "I'm burnt out," and I said, "Dude, that's impossible. You were never on fire." And so, I mean, you, you just-

    15. CW

      (laughs)

    16. DR

      You... It's just... You know, "I wanna work as little as I can possibly work and make as much as I can possibly make." That's not how it works.

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    18. DR

      You, you, you, you reap what you sow. If you put a little bit of corn in the ground, you get a little bit of corn. If you put a lot of corn in the ground, you get a lot of corn. It's a simple thing. And so when in doubt, get up and go do something. When you're scared, go do something. When you're mad, go do something. Uh, when you're happy, go do something. Just be doing something. Be out there kicking it and moving it around, trying something new, falling on your face, failing forward. Get it, get it, get it, get it, get it, get... A- and, and...There's no substitute for that. Well, I don't wanna be a workaholic. I'm not suggesting you be a workaholic. When you get home, turn it all off, be there with your spouse, be there with your kid, pet the dog. That's fine. But while you're at work, work. People sit at their... They sit at work and look at Facebook and they're not in the SEO business. I mean, uh, you're just... Are playing some stupid game on their phone. What in the world? Do your work, man. I mean, work on your work. And so, um, you know, if you work in a carpentry crew and everybody else is swinging a hammer and you're sitting around checking your phone, somebody'll throw something at you, you know? I mean, so act like that. Get after it. And so you gotta have that, that, that, uh, penchant for action and grit and perseverance that follows under the heading of work ethic. And so, you know, that... A- a- and then I would... Uh, the next thing I would add is just where there is no vision, the people perish. So start looking down the road. Where are we going? Where are we going with this? And, and start setting some short, uh, some long-term goals and then the short term goals that cause those long term goals to appear. And so, in other words, if you said, "I, I wanna lose weight." Okay, great. "I wanna lose..." How much? Uh, 30 pounds. When? 90 days. Okay, that's a long term, sorta, goal. And you go, okay, so what are the short term goals to do that? Well, there's exercise every day that includes aerobic movement, there's water intake, and cut out the gluten and the sugar. It's not rocket science. You don't need Oprah to tell you how to do this. Everyone knows what to do, but now you've gotta do the daily habits, the daily goals that cause the long term goal to hit. If you wanna make $100,000 a year, what is that? That's $8,333 a month. How many things do you need to sell? What do you gotta do to do that? And start breaking that down into daily activities that are gonna take me to that annual income goal. If I wanna make a million dollars a year, how many of these books do I need to sell? How many of th- You know, what have I gotta do? A- and you can, you can break it out. It's simple sixth grade math, and then you break it down into a daily activity that creates that goal. So this vision out to the future that drives the daily work ethic and gives you inspiration and hope, that as I push this through... Okay, man, we're ahead of schedule. We're ahead of schedule. We're ahead of my daily goal. In the last 10 days, I'm at 12 day mark. Good. All right, boom. We're on. A- and so I can keep going. I, I may get there even faster than I thought, and you just keep laying it out that way. And goals are just... When they're done right and they're yours and you own them and the math is put with them, they're very motivating, and it's, it's vision with work clothes on.

    19. CW

      Yeah, I think the point on how hard people work, there is a unique category of hell where somebody complains about results that they didn't get from work that they didn't put in.

    20. DR

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      And I mean, it, it's cause and effect. You're seeing cause and effect happen right in front of you, and there's not really anything that can be said

  6. 27:07 – 42:37

    Building Momentum After A Difficult Time

    1. CW

      there. You mentioned, you know... I guess you alluded during, uh, your first... The first phase, Ramsey 1.0, I guess, uh, pre-bankruptcy, uh, that was, uh, getting the shit kicked out of you and then turning that around, realizing, oh wow, I wasn't as smart as I thought. This was difficult. And then you also said that grit, determination, some kind of resilience is one of the traits that you would look to give to somebody. I think a lot of the time, I'd be, I'd be interested to know whether... How much hope you had during that moment while you were enduring the real financial strife because in retrospect, it's very easy to weave a narrative together of this is why I needed to learn this thing, and look, in the grand arc of my life, I have come into land with much more insight and wisdom and I can see that for what it was. This was somebody that was too flash, that was over leveraged, that was using debt in a way that wasn't efficient, and I paid the price and this is how I've come out of it. But in my experience, during that process, it doesn't feel like that at all. There's no grander purpose to this thing. You're just wallowing in uncertainty and fear and confusion and, and, and self-doubt and, and, uh, criticism and pain.

    2. DR

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      Um, so I just wanna kind of get a sense... Let's say that somebody... Hopefully not bankruptcy for a million dollar... Tuned up to the, uh, an amount of a million dollars, but somebody's going through a bit of a rough time and you're like, "Look, this is a way to try and reframe that difficulty right now, psychologically, so that you can start to see things with a little bit more equanimity." Now, I wonder how much you were capable of doing that at the time, and how much this is you, uh, retrospectively realizing that it was good for you?

    4. DR

      Uh, it ebbed and flowed at the time, and so there... I, I, I distinctly remember standing in the shower, sobbing with it so hot in my face I could barely stand there 'cause I did not know what to do. I was so scared I couldn't breathe, and I have a b- a wife and a brand new baby and a toddler, and the poor woman thought she married Sir Galahad and turns out it was Goober, and I stand there feeling like a complete, abject failure. Our water and our electricity to our home with two babies got cut off. I mean, it was unbelievable. Uh, uh, so yeah, I, I... It... Like I said, it, it not... I not only went broke, it broke me, but I, I was so scared I couldn't breathe, and then I'd walk out in the sunshine and find some little deal, find little... Some little thing and go live the next day, little vitamin D and go to church and the pastor would be inspiring. I'd have some, some... A good moment in prayer where I felt like God was talking to me, "You're gonna be okay." Uh, I distinctly remember, uh, we filed bankruptcy in August. I mean, in September, September 23rd of 1988. I was 28 years old. Uh, I'm 64 now, but I can remember like it start... Like it was this morning, in August, about 30 days before we filed, I, I couldn't sleep and I got up at 4:00 in the morning and I was... The kids are asleep, Sharon's asleep, and I was sit- sitting in my little recliner, and I had some books stacked there that I was reading. I had a Bible sitting there, and I was just crying. I was scared.And, um, I thought, "Okay, God, you're gonna have to help me because I don't know how to do this." And, um, I randomly opened my Bible, and it fell open and I just started looking down the page and there was, uh, Romans 5 an- and it says, "Rejoice in your tribulations." And I looked up at heaven and I said, "I don't think so."

    5. CW

      (laughs)

    6. DR

      (laughs)

    7. CW

      Wow.

    8. DR

      And, uh, because tr- tribulations create perseverance, and perseverance, character, and character, hope. And, um, so I- I don't know how much closer you can get from hearing a message from God than something like that. That hasn't happened to me very often in my 40 years of being a Christian, but sometimes you get those chill bump experiences and you go, "Oh, that was my Heavenly Father going, 'Uh, yeah, it's tough, but you're going somewhere with this. Hang on, kid. You're gonna get there.'" And he put his arm around me and I got up and I went to work that day. 30 days later, I filed bankruptcy. So I was at the bottom. I mean, that was the a- you know, the- the end of the valley. Right there is where that was. But rejoice in your tribulations because tribulations produce perseverance, and perseverance, character, and character, hope. And hope is a gift of the Holy Spirit. And so I needed some hope and, uh, I needed to see that there was a- that this was going somewhere, to your point.

    9. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    10. DR

      And so, again, it ebbed and flowed. So, you know, 20 minutes before that, I'm a basket case. Right after that, I'm strengthened and ready to go for at least a little while longer, right? And, uh, and- and that's happened to me throughout my life. Um, even running Ramsey. We'll have, you know, a massive success on something and then there's a- a massive failure and I'm looking up going, "You've gotta be kidding." You know? And so when does this get easy? And it doesn't. And so, um, I have a weird prayer life, but yeah. (laughs)

    11. CW

      It's a very antagonistic relationship with God that you've got.

    12. DR

      (laughs)

    13. CW

      It seems- it seems passive aggressive sometimes.

    14. DR

      (laughs)

    15. CW

      It seems very-

    16. DR

      He's not-

    17. CW

      ... very difficult.

    18. DR

      ... he's not scared of me. I- I'm okay. (laughs)

    19. CW

      (laughs) But, yeah.

    20. DR

      Yeah, that- that- that- that's... But I- I- I'm just a real dude and that's- that's the way it was. And so whether it was a- a- a spiritual thing like that or whether it was a friend coming alongside, I re- distinctly remember about two years after the bottom, we were starting to teach some of this stuff and there were three people that cared and, you know, that kind of stuff, and a buddy of mine, I was sitting with him, uh, at a bad, one of those bad buffets like a Golden Coral type crap or something, and we went and he's like... And I was whining about how hard my life was and how bad it had been and how horrible the last four years had been and all this, and he's like, you know, "Do you want some cheese with that wine, dude? Really. I mean, you just... You- you got enough lemons, you should probably make some lemonade." And he goes, "You need to take these experiences and use them to help other people and then you're probably gonna get healed yourself in the process." And- and that's kinda where it went. But, again, there- there was days where I didn't know what to do and then there were days I felt fortified, lifted up by a friend or by a- a spiritual encounter or by whatever. And so it was an ebb and flow. But did I look in the moment and look out 20 years and go, "Oh, God's going to use this for my good"? No (laughs) . Not even close.

    21. CW

      No, you railed and you were mad and you were sad and-

    22. DR

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      ... yeah. I think it's just... I have this sense that we have a skewed perspective of the trajectory of people coming back from rock bottom or from pullbacks that they've had in life and- and errors and failures, uh, because most people see those stories portrayed through movies and-

    24. DR

      Yeah.

    25. CW

      ... the Rocky montage i- is three and a half minutes.

    26. DR

      Right.

    27. CW

      But, in reality, it can be five or 10 years.

    28. DR

      Three and a half years. Yeah.

    29. CW

      Yeah, exactly. And you're looking around going, "What the fuck is going..." Like, "How is this..."

    30. DR

      Exactly.

  7. 42:37 – 52:56

    Traps That People Fall Into For Wealth And Business Building

    1. CW

      are some of the biggest psychological errors that people make when it comes to thinking about wealth and business building? What are the, the traps that people fall into?

    2. DR

      Uh, you know, (sighs) one of the ones I've been working on a lot with our EntreLeadership clients, which we coach about 10,000 small businesses in, uh, under the brand EntreLeadership, that this book is in, as a matter of fact. It's in that same brand. And the, uh, and then of course, we work with, uh, people on the financial side, and so I've been in, you know, I did the book Millionaire, uh, Baby Steps Millionaires, and this is number one again. Teaching pe- you know, here's what these millionaires look like. We did a s- huge study on millionaires, here's what they really look like. And so in both of those cases, I'm spending time with the wealthy or I'm spending time with a successful small business person. In either case, I'm, uh, appalled at how much damage the, uh, anti-success movement has done to their psyche. I'm appalled that they f- actually, too many of them are, are, they're, they're very successful on almost every front, but when I look at them and say, "You haven't done anything wrong. You did everything right is why you're successful. You are not a moral reprobate for becoming wealthy or becoming successful. Quite the opposite. I'm proud of you. You have done good stuff, my son and my daughter." Uh, and I'm amazed at somebody that's got a $5 million net worth and I look at them and say that and their body language changes. Their shoulders go back, their head comes up, because this communist, negative, uh, anti-wealth, anti-success stuff that is floating around has had an impact on them and, and impacted their spirit. The s- the hope stealers, I call them, has stolen a lot of these people's pride, their hope, uh, a- and, uh, and I- I've started getting, quite frankly, pretty angry about, uh, these people that are spreading this negative thing about successful people. Because I gotta tell you, man, I know a lot of billionaires, not just millionaires, and the percentage of wealthy people that are bad people is lower than the percentage of the population. Now, there is bad people among them, but they did not get there by doing something wrong. By and large, they got there by doing more right than anybody else did. They served more chicken, they served more pizza, they served more business help, they served more something than you did. Shut up. You know? And, um, man, but they, it, it's amazing to me to sit with a guy who's got a 15 or a 20 million net worth and a guy like me from, a redneck, a hillbilly can look at him and go, "Dude, I'm proud of you. You did good."

    3. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    4. DR

      And he goes, "You know, I did." I, but nobody says that to him. Everybody says, "You're a dog, you're an idiot, you're a crook. You must have done something wrong," the w- Eat The Rich and all this s- stupid one percenters and Operation Wall Street's language and all that garbage that's out there. And it's having an impact on success is now getting a bad name, you know? And it didn't used to have a bad name in America.

    5. CW

      Yeah. Where do you think that's come from?

    6. DR

      Uh, communist college professors.

    7. CW

      (laughs)

    8. DR

      (laughs)

    9. CW

      Okay. Uh, but if that's ... Surely those communist college professors, were, were they in tenure when the people that you're speaking to were going through college? Or is-

    10. DR

      Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they've always been there. I mean, honestly and truthfully, there's very little pe- there's very few people that believe that communism is a better system than capitalism unless they're on a college campus. You can't find them. You can't even find them in communist countries that think it's better than capitalism.

    11. CW

      Yeah, the Venezuelans I'm telling you to fight for-

    12. DR

      There's nothing more, there's nothing more capitalistic than a good communist, right? Uh, honestly. And so, uh, but this idea of equal wealth for unequal effort and call that fair, that's not fair.

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. DR

      Guy works 60 hours, he should make more money than the guy works six hours. That's not fair. You make the same money and you work ... That's not fair. My kids used to say growing up, "Well, Daddy, that's not fair." I'm like, "Fair is where the Tilt-A-Whirl and the cotton candy is, kid. You know, you want-"

    15. CW

      Uh-huh.

    16. DR

      "... some fair? Go get some."

    17. CW

      Yeah. I- I'm very grateful that where I'm from, the Northeast of the UK, it's spit and sawdust, blue-collar stuff.

    18. DR

      Yeah.

    19. CW

      There was no airs and graces. And in some ways, for the British people that are listening and the Australians and maybe some of the Canadians and maybe the working class Americans as well, uh, that has some pains, um, because if you try and stray from the beaten path, a lot of the time that's looked down on, that's not exactly supported. You don't, you're kind of in a role model desert a lot of the time. There's not that many people-

    20. DR

      Yeah, I was having a, I was having dinner with some Aussies and they c- said tall poppy syndrome.

    21. CW

      Correct.

    22. DR

      And, uh, I said, "Well, that's not an Aussie thing. That's an Aristotle thing," but okay. Yeah, still.

    23. CW

      Yeah.

    24. DR

      Aristotle's was-

    25. CW

      It's a little older.

    26. DR

      That's what said that there.

    27. CW

      It's a little older than Australia is. Yeah.

    28. DR

      Yeah. But still, it's, you know, it, that poppy that you s- you can't stick your head up, you must be cut down.

    29. CW

      Yes. And-

    30. DR

      In- envy and jealousy.

  8. 52:56 – 1:03:41

    Principles Of Building A Business

    1. CW

      Getting onto the principles of business, how do you come to think about people building a business that they're going to love?

    2. DR

      Um, what we started figuring out as we looked at our history and these things that we had been through was that there was actually a cadence, there was actually a rhythm to it, and there were some leveling up as we went along. And we started trying to quantify how that happened and, and what ha- and, and what the levels were. And, and then we started looking at, okay, it's not just, uh, germane to the Ramsey story, the Ramsey Solutions growing from a card table in my living room to a $300 million operation today. So it's not just germane to that. But if I'm talking to a heat and air guy that's got 40 trucks out there and he's got a successful heating and air business, which is a lot, we talk to that guy every day. Or I'm, I'm talking to a veterinarian that's got, you know, 30 employees in a huge, um, large and small animal operation doing very well financially, or a dentist, and these are our small business people that we're coaching all the time. What, what are they see- you know, what are we seeing as we walk with them over a decade? Uh, uh, what, what is holding them back? Where are they? And so we started identifying and trying to put words to the, the framework that we were seeing naturally. Um, and it was a struggle. We wanted to do that because we had the experience with the Total Money Makeover book, uh, which is like 12 million copies sold now, that the baby steps that we teach, the seven baby steps, the, the fact that we gave someone a clear path caused them to take action, 'cause they could see that it was, if I do this, then I'm gonna do this, then I'm gonna do this, then I'm gonna do this. It gave them the next thing to do. And then they would take action versus sitting and getting, as we said earlier, paralysis of the analysis. So a clear path gives people hope. If I know, if I know what h- what roads I'm taking to get to Florida, I can step down on the accelerator.... because I've got a plan. And I've got, uh, and I'm gonna go there, and I'm gonna take that exit, and then I'm gonna turn there, and I've got a plan to get to Florida from where I am right now. And so I can go, I can go, I can go, but, but if I don't know where I'm going, it's a little hard to be enthusiastic about it. So, um, that's what we, that's what started this whole thing, and then we built what we called the Entre Leadership System, which is just the clear path for small businesses. The first piece of it, that the book is based on, is the five stages of a s- of a business, a small business in particular. Again, we work with, 98% of our customers are 200 and fewer team members, so these are the quintessential small businesses. 54% of the gross domestic product in America today is created by that group. Over half of the economy in America is small business. They are literally, mathematically, the backbone of the economy. And, and so what are they going through? Well, the first stage is, we talked about it early in the conversation, is the treadmill operator, the solopreneur, and I, I'm just gonna set up a table, I'm gonna turn on the computer, I'm gonna do whatever, I'm gonna swing a hammer, uh, I'm gonna turn a wrench. I don't, whatever it is you're gonna do, an- and, but the treadmill operator is when you first get started. It's exciting 'cause you're, you're, you're jazzed up. You're living the dream, uh, and you're working your butt off, and it's starting to work, and it makes you smile, and I'm not working for the man. I got control of my destiny. It's just a blast. But you are running your legs off because you are the sole producer of revenue and you're the sole producer of the product. And so you not only gotta make the widget and deliver it, but then you gotta collect the money for making the widget and delivering it. And if you don't come to work one day, nothing happens. If you don't come to work for a week 'cause you're on vacation, revenue goes down because no one else is producing revenue. You're on a treadmill. At this stage, I would come home from work and flop down on the couch, and my wife would go, "What'd you do today?" And I have no idea- Mm-hmm. ... but I did a lot of it. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I'm exhausted. And so just run, run, run, run, run. I was working 16-hour days, man, getting this thing off the ground. And, um, and she had two little kids at home, and this is three, four years after going broke, and so now she's a single mom basically. Uh, but we're, we're gonna get financial peace, by God. We're gonna get this going. And so, uh, you know, how do you level up out of that? Well, you l- by time management, for one thing. You gotta start working on your business, not just in your business, so you gotta time block some of your weeks out, some of your hours, uh, out of the week and go, "I've gotta take care of accounting. I've gotta take care of some SEO. I've gotta take care of stuff that's not just directly related to production of revenue and collection of revenue." And, uh, and this is also when you hire your first people so that you've got someone else to lift the bales with you. You're not the only one lifting the bales. A- and so you get, you get your first person and your second person in there, that kinda thing. So you're building delegation, you're starting to build time management, and that levels you up. And, and then you go up to pathfinder, we call it, and pathfinders, you know, typically, the pathfinder's got eight or 10 people, something like that. And everybody's working their butt off and they're going in about ni- it's like herding cats. They're going about 92 directions, nail, trying to nail jello to a tree. We're all working hard. We're all having fun. It's a great adventure. We're tired together. Uh, there's not a lot of, uh, planning. There's not a lot of, uh, role clarity. The communication is drive-by communication. We just would say, "Hey, man, I'm heading out the door to go get something," and, you know, we just, we're just moving. A- and, but you start making a little money, and the whole thing's not on your back, and you can start leveling up out of that by starting to put mission and vision in place, starting to get some role clarity. Look, this is your job. You gotta get that done before you work on this other thing. We gotta really start to have key result areas, some KPIs. You start measuring some things. Uh, a- a- and then you'll level up and you'll go to trailblazer. Trailblazer's fun. It's the middle one. Uh, and, uh, this is when you actually think you're gonna make it. You know, we're getting there. And, uh, we actually think we're gonna bust through this thing, and there's a lot happening, uh, but there's n- almost no planning. It, a lot of it is, "Thank God it's Friday. Oh, God, it's Monday." You know, uh, and you just go, go, go, go, go again, but you don't have good systems. You don't have good processes. At this stage at Ramsay, we were killing so many trees 'cause we had stuff on paper. We had 73 spreadsheets trying to tie them together to create a P&L. The accounting system sucked. And this is Dave freaking Ramsay, and the accounting system sucked. I can't believe it, you know? But it was like, 'cause we had all these different business units, and they were all kind of running their own thing, and they were trying to get them all talked to the mothership, and, and it was, it was awful. It was very disorganized, very chaotic. And so you start really putting in place something entrepreneurs hate, which is some governance. And you say, "All right, this is the process. We're all going to adhere to that-" Mm-hmm. "... 'cause otherwise, we're gonna kill each other. Uh, this is the system, and we're gonna do away with the other systems. You can't have 73 types of software. This is the one we're using." And, and people get mad and they, "Oh, you're becoming corporate America now." No, I'm just trying to keep from going crazy. (laughs) And, you know, and, and so, you know, a- and you just keep doing that stuff, and then you'll level up and hit the most, the best one of all, which is peak performer. This is the best of the five. Peak performer, man, you got a well-oiled machine. You're bailing cash. You are making profit like you never thought you'd make in your life. Things are working. You start to look good. People start to want to interview you 'cause you're so smart. You are a, you know, people are, uh, you're able to attract talent 'cause this thing's shiny. It's working, the systems, the processes. We got good strategic thought. When I was at, at the trailblazer stage, I couldn't spell strategic. Everything was tactical. But I s- I hired some MBAs accidentally 'cause I was trying to get some talent on the team, and I don't have an MBA, but these guys, 100% of the MBA programs teach strategic thought. And so these guys started tell- showing me the importance of getting above the problem, seeing a 30,000-foot view. Quit running into the wall, Dave. If you turn right and then turn left, you can walk around it and burn less calories. But you gotta get above it to see the way around the wall. A- and so it's s- slow down a little bit. Get above it-...and, and develop a good map to Florida, right? And, and so, uh, I always laugh and say, "These wonderful people stop- taught me strategic thought, and I taught them how to work." So, um, but then we move, you know, so then you get up into this p- peak performer. And only one negative thing about peak performer is, uh, you can start to believe you're great and slow down and, uh, quit iterating and quit breaking it before it's broken. And those are huge mistakes. And so the trick at peak performer is shock the monkey baby. I mean, get the, get that cattle prod out, just turn the ba turn the fruit basket over, just have emergency meetings, mess with people, mess with the thing. So we, we cannot rest here.

    3. CW

      Mm.

    4. DR

      We're not as good as we look, what we were saying earlier.

    5. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DR

      We got big time momentum, but we're not as good as we look, and we're not gonna fall for this lack of humility, this hubris that Jim Collins talks about in How the Mighty Fall. This is where they fall, and they get hubris in the peak performer. And if you can just stay dialed up there, a lot of companies spend, you know, two decades in the peak performer stage, never move out of it and just bail money. The last stage then is the stage Ramsay's at, which is the legacy stage, and that's where you start to think about, "Okay, how's this go on generationally, w- uh, what happens at the end of the founder's life-"

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DR

      "...or the end of the founder's career? How are we going to exit? A- are we selling out? Are we bringing in joint venture capital? Are we gonna do an IPO, or are we gonna hand this to the next generation of family? Uh, what are we doing?" And you gotta start planning and, and working on a good 15 years succession plan. It takes a good 15 years to build a solid and execute a good, solid succession plan. People that do it in 15 days fail, because you just toss the keys out as you grab your chest and fall back into the grave.

    9. CW

      Mm.

    10. DR

      And so, um, that, that w- doesn't work because the customers don't know what's going on, the vendors don't know what's going on, the team doesn't know what's going on, and the old man that started it is now 80, and there seems to be no plan. So it's hard to attract and keep talent. Who wants to work for that? 'Cause when he dies, it's gonna fold up like a Walmart tent. And so, you know, we don't wanna do this. A- and so we started working on ours 16 years ago at Ramsay, and, uh, we're deep into it. And it's troubling emotionally, but it's, it's the noble and the right and the wise thing to do at the, at the legacy stage. So those are the five stages in, in a, in a quick rundown, uh, machine gun style, and that's what the book's about. And then there's six drivers that run you through those things. We talked about one of them a lot, the personal driver. My, the problem with my business is the guy in my mirror. The solution to my business is the guy in my mirror. That's the first of the six drivers. And so that's the framework that becomes the clear path that gives you hope a- if you're running something that I can level up at each one of these things, and it's gonna get a little easier, and then something else is gonna get a little harder 'cause it's s- at scale

  9. 1:03:41 – 1:10:23

    Why Finding And Hiring Good Staff Is Fundamental

    1. DR

      now.

    2. CW

      What are your principles and process to finding and hiring good staff? It seems like that's very important to move people beyond each level and something that probably a lot of solopreneurs get stuck on.

    3. DR

      It's the number one pain point in small businesses, is hiring and keeping and firing, hiring and, and keeping talent and, and firing, uh, because small business people love their people, their family. Uh, you, you, by the nature of the fact that it is a small business, I know them. It's that they're not a, a social security number that I can cut to get stock price up. This is somebody I sit la- and have lunch with. I know their dog's name. I know their kid's name, you know? And so this is a, uh, process to lead these folks in that kind of a setting and to hire them and attract them. Uh, so what, what you've gotta do is you're continually looking for not only people that have talent, uh, and, uh, uh, but people that are on fire for what you're doing, and we call them crusaders at our place, a- and that, that align with your core values. It's more important that they align with your core values and that they're enthusiastic than it is that they have talent. 'Cause if you bring in a talented player onto a football team, and he disrupts the locker room, he takes more from the team than he adds. He could be a Hall of Famer and still hurt the ve the team more than he helps the team on the field, uh, because, you know, nobody wants to block for the guy. He's a butt, you know? A- and that's what happens in a business as well. So we made the mistake in business like we did with education of saying, "Oh, if you have a piece of paper, that's all your, that's your qualification." You know, you've got the talent. You've got the cer- certification. You've got the degree. Who cares if you're a jerk? Who cares if you sleep around on your wife? Who cares if you're, uh, doing cocaine? As long as you do your job, and you got the degree, then, then that's all we care about. And that's a huge mistake. You cannot build a, uh, a, a quality culture, a productive culture, a safe place for people to work with those kinds of people in the room. Look, i- you know, uh, every time we let crazy in our building accidentally, we find out what door they use and we put a lock on it 'cause crazy will shut the flate, freaking place down. You burn all your calories dealing with their drama instead of getting your work done. And it's like, "God, I wish I just had- didn't have team members. I wish I had just me, it'd be a lot easier." Well, yeah, 'cause sometimes I feel like I'm running a beauty parlor. You know, it's just ridiculous. And so, but that's how small business people feel about it and how I have felt at times. So we just became, um, uh, militant about not letting the wrong people in the building. Uh, yeah, you gotta have talent, but that's secondary to you've gotta be aligned. You gotta be ready to go, and that's why I've got the quality of Gen Zers that I have. That's why a- th- you know, I told you I got five or 600 of them that are in their Gen Z, and they're fabulous. They'll charge the gates of hell with a water pistol. And don't you mess with Ramsay 'cause they're part of Ramsay. They'll take you down.

    4. CW

      How do you assess, how do you find, assess, and motivate people to have that level of passion and buy-in?

    5. DR

      Uh, I don't motivate them. Uh, you can't motivate people. Uh, I- I- I hire motivated people, and so-

    6. CW

      Do you not, do you need to incentivize them appropriately?

    7. DR

      Yeah, the, a- and it's not necessarily money, it's culture. Uh, give them a place to work that's real. Give them s- something to work on that is changing people's lives, that does have meaning. Give them a, uh, the ability to participate in meaning, in, uh, that kinda stuff and plug into that, and they'll tell you. They'll tell you upfront. E- that's the other thing about Gen Z, they're just, and millennials too, they're just brutally honest. They're like, "You know, I'm just looking for a job."

    8. CW

      Mm.

    9. DR

      "Uh, you don't fit in here. We don't have anybody that works at J-O-B. Everybody here is on the team to put the ball in the end zone, man. This is like a passionate thing, and you- you're gonna stand out like a sore thumb if you're mailing it in around here."

    10. CW

      Does the importance of building culture in that sort of a way lend a advantage to businesses like yours that have a single spot where everybody works? I don't know whether you have anyone that does work remotely. I imagine there must be some contractors somewhere that have to contribute to tech stuff and- and servers and things, but I imagine that that level of motivation, that level of culture building, that level of buy-in is significantly harder if you've got a team that's distributed around the world and never sees each other.

    11. DR

      I- I would suspect it is. I've never run anything like that. I don't know, but I think your- your observation's probably correct. Uh, it's one of the many reasons that we work at work. Uh, we don't have any team members that are on our payroll that work anywhere except in this building, um, and there's 1,100 of them. Uh, but the, uh, uh, we do have some contractors and vendors of different kinds. Obviously they don't work for me.

    12. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    13. DR

      Uh, they work for themselves somewhere. Uh, I don't know where they work. It's not my job to keep up with them, but the people inside the building, because then we create this, um, you know, so much is transferred with body language and tone, so much, so much quality of communication is, and so when I'm sitting in a meeting, we can have a really constructive argument, a good fight about a bad idea or a good idea. Now, a- and not, uh, not kill the players. It's two, it's two guys in the huddle going, "No, don't run the ball over there. That, that, they've been catching us every day over there. Let's go up, let's go up the B, let's go in the B hole and, instead of the A hole." And so, you know, you're just arguing about the play being called, not the competency-

    14. CW

      Mm.

    15. DR

      ... or not the dignity or not the quality of the player. That's not what... You don't fix that in the huddle. But we get in a room, we do everything so collaborative and- and we have a healthy level of conflict continuously around here. And, uh, the longer you've been here and the longer, higher in leadership you are, the more, uh, dramatic some of that conflict is to where-

    16. CW

      (laughs)

    17. DR

      ... to- to where a, an outsider visiting that room might be really confused as to what they were observing, uh, that they not, they might not understand how much trust and love and respect is actually in that room that allows you to talk like that. (laughs) But, uh, it, I mean, we- we- we get at it, but that's... It's all an act of love because we're all trying to get the same thing done, and you can argue with me and go, "Dave, that's a stupid idea," just like I can tell you the same thing a- and go, but I'm not gonna call you stupid. That's different than saying it's a stupid idea.

    18. CW

      And navigating that through a Slack channel as opposed to person-to-person-

    19. DR

      It's very difficult.

    20. CW

      ... face-to-face, yes. Yes, yes. Yeah. Uh, talking

  10. 1:10:23 – 1:14:08

    Reason's Why Money Problems Are Symptomatic

    1. CW

      about money problems, you know, we- we've touched tactically on a lot of different things today. Do you think that, uh, money problems are existential problems in disguise? Is there something deeper going on that it's an outgrowth of something, uh, that, somebody's self-image, some spiritual issue that they've got going on, some existential problem? Or is it all, does it all just come down to tactics?

    2. DR

      No, it's 100% what you're talking about. You're exactly right. Uh, there was a guy on Christian radio when I first started named Larry Burkett, he's since passed away, but he used to say, uh, "Money problems are not the problem, they're the symptom." There's something else going on. They- they're the symptom of some extreme thing going on or some minor thing going on. Could it be greed? That's a, you know, that's- that's the problem, and then that's gonna lead you to do what I did, build a house of cards, and it'll fall in on you. Uh, could it be, uh, immaturity? Could it be, uh, I'm trying to pu- prop up a self-image? Uh, could it be a cocaine addiction? Um, you know, we've had the, uh, honor of walking with a whole lot of people into their sobriety over the years and a lot of different kinds of addictions, and 100% of addicts have- have financial trouble eventually. Uh, 100%, there's no exception. And so, uh, just a matter of time, it shows up in the money always, and so, um, uh, but that- that's the extreme, right? But the, you know, the money problems could be from a marriage problem, that they're not... The, so the symptom is not really the fact that- that we can't get along and so we're doing revenge spending with our spouse or we're hiding stuff, financial infidelity and we got six credit cards my husband doesn't know about or my wife doesn't know about, uh, that kind of stuff. All of that is symptomatic of a broken relationship. It's not the problem, it's the symptom. And so we all, that's- that's one of the reasons the Ramsey show, uh, over all these 35 years from talk radio to podcast to YouTube now has been so popular. It's so compelling to watch and listen to it, because you're not really getting the financial question. You're really getting these people's lives-

    3. CW

      Mm.

    4. DR

      ... which are compelling. I mean, it- it's like watching a, sometimes like watching a train wreck, you know? And sometimes it's like watching a victory, uh, a victory dance, they just won the Super Bowl. A debt-free scream, right? And so a- all of the, this is a personal visceral victory-

    5. CW

      Mm.

    6. DR

      ... and- and so this, that's what's compelling about the show. It's not that we showed somebody how to do a Roth IRA.

    7. CW

      It's...... personal growth masquerading as a way to make wealth.

    8. DR

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      It's somebody changing, changing their life, it's just that finance is their particular current bugbear. For some other person it might be their body weight, for some other person it might be their marital status-

    10. DR

      Exactly.

    11. CW

      ... for some other person it might be their friendship circle or the place that they live or whatever, and this is the vehicle for personal growth.

    12. DR

      Dysfunctional family origin. Uh-

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. DR

      ... you know, family, you know, origin, th-th-where they grew up. They just grew up in a toxic situation, raised by wolves and they don't know how to do it. And so, um, hey, I understand and, uh, you know, I grew up in this neighborhood, it gave me that mindset. I grew up in that neighborhood, it gave me that mindset. And so, uh, you know, the, all, all of that is in the, in the gumbo.

    15. CW

      Mm.

    16. DR

      And you stir it and you stir it and you put the spices in and, uh, a-and you keep stirring and you can make some good gumbo-

    17. CW

      (laughs)

    18. DR

      ... but it takes a minute to get there.

    19. CW

      Dave, your analogies are-

    20. DR

      (laughs)

    21. CW

      ... (laughs) the stuff of fucking legend. Nailing jello to a tree, it's like a Walmart tent that needs fold-folding up. I just, look, uh, uh, as a Brit we just do not have this level of color when it comes to the-

Episode duration: 1:32:56

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode hcPAoEemLkg

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

Add to Chrome