Modern WisdomWhy So Many Women Feel Lost in Their 30's - Louise Perry
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,310 words- 0:00 – 5:55
Are We in a Post-OnlyFans Society?
- CWChris Williamson
Bonnie Blue might be pregnant. Good news?
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs) No, very bad news. I mean, I'm- I- I- I would bet money that she is not pregnant. I would bet money also that Lily Phillips is not pregnant. Like, what are the chances that the two of them are pregnant at exactly the same time? Come on. I also just hope they're not.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a lot of men. It's a lot of sperm.
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs) Yes. I did see someone on Twitter saying that actually the most reliable contraception in the world, like, the Mirena coil has a one in a thousand failure rate. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) So, one in 57 actually breaks it.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah. So, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- LPLouise Perry
... I guess it's plausible. Um, but, uh, I really hope it's not true. I mean, it- I... Yeah. I, I think it would be very likely that social services would get involved, in all seriousness.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow. That's interesting.
- LPLouise Perry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And I totally didn't, I totally didn't think about that. Why would they get involved?
- LPLouise Perry
Because it's very common for children to be taken away from mums if they are, um, in prostitution. And the thing is that, I think what, what social services are normally worried about is children being exposed to punters. Like, if they're coming into the home. Which isn't happening with Bonnie Blue or Lily Phillips. But it's like they... I mean, they do, like, work from home, in the sense of doing camming from home.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
And like, it's... I think it would be very, very difficult for them to protect children completely.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's perilously similar. And you know, the word sex worker was reclaimed by OnlyFans and online models and stuff like that, and it kind of... Sex worker, I guess, 20 years ago would've been girls that were out on the curb at sort of the dark hours of the night and guys driving past. And now it covers a whole range of sins, m- many of which are digital and totally parasocial, and totally solo. Uh, but something tells me... Actually, yeah, that social services might, if you want to expand the definition of sex worker to include this sort of stuff, then perhaps social services have got something to say about that.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah. I mean, I think they'd at least have to think about it, you know. Like, I've... I don't... I mean, I... Yeah. I really hope it's not true because imagine the psychological toll on a child who knew that they'd been brought into the world in those circumstances, right? And I, I mean, Lily Phillips is single. Lily Phillips doesn't have a boyfriend. So, if she were pregnant-
- CWChris Williamson
Does Bonnie Blue?
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah, I think she does. I mean-
- CWChris Williamson
I guess if you've had a sample-
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... of a thousand guys, you've got to be one good one in there. Or maybe not.
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs) Haven't they-
- CWChris Williamson
You know?
- LPLouise Perry
... been selected for being, like, the worst-
- CWChris Williamson
It was guy-
- LPLouise Perry
... possible broadcast?
- CWChris Williamson
It was guy number 854, and I saw him-
- LPLouise Perry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... across the room, and I thought, "You're for me."
- LPLouise Perry
I mean, though this is a thing as well. Like, they just... The, the torture that that child would be put through in school because everyone would end up knowing, and imagine your conception being on, o- on film. I mean, just everything about it is appalling.
- 5:55 – 8:27
The Conversation Around Bonnie Blue & Lily Phillips
- CWChris Williamson
What's the... Wh- wh- what have you sort of come to think about the Bonnie Blue, Lily Phillips contribution to the conversation around sex and, and women at the moment?
- LPLouise Perry
Um, so I think from having watched the Lily Phillips documentary, I've heard from, um, journalists who've interviewed her that she's really, really nice actually and it does come across. I think that genuinely she is, um, very sweet and one of the things that I concluded from watching the documentary with her is that she's actually really quite vulnerable. She says things like, she says really poignant things like, "Oh, I'm only good for one thing, me." And talks-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep, I remember that.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah. And talks about not having any friends and feeling like... She does this sort of diffident thing where she says, "Oh, I don't care about being judged," but it's obvious that she actually massively does care about being judged because she keeps talking about it, you know? And I strongly concluded from that, that actually she's doing this more as a kind of self-harm than anything else.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- LPLouise Perry
Bonnie Blue, I'm not so sure about. Like, (laughs) she might be one of those unicorn women. I've- I- I- like, I've always- I've always said there probably are some women, the world is big enough, there are some women who actually really like having sex like a man and really are-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
... like, really mean it. Bonnie Blue might be one of them. Um...
- CWChris Williamson
I suppose, you know, in, uh, the way that you have a distribution of different mental makeups within any society, uh, your genes are gonna roll the dice on a few mutations and a couple of tinkerings here and there. Maybe you'll have a guy that can grow his hair into a ponytail and raid Lindisfarne and come back and not have any PTSD. You know, that's- that's- that's one type.
- LPLouise Perry
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Wouldn't do to have a society filled with all of them.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Would probably be quite chaotic. Uh, in the same way, perhaps there is a role for one of the local women to not really care too much about getting attached when they have sex with a lot of men. And that's not me saying that Bonnie Blue is a- the berserker of the-
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) ... fucking OnlyFans woman.
- LPLouise Perry
She might be. She might be. She says that she is. Like, it's possible that she is. I don't know. I- I- I can't see into her mind. Um, I do think that... I think Lily Phillips almost certainly isn't like that.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
Um, and I- I just have always had a problem with the idea that just because a woman says she wants to do something, or indeed a man says he wants to do something, that means that he's definitely doing the thing that's in his best interest and everyone just needs to step back and be like, "Oh yeah, great. Go for it, mate." And see-
- CWChris Williamson
And isn't interesting...
- 8:27 – 19:52
Why Humans Desire Agency
- CWChris Williamson
'Cause i- i- there is this desire for agency that everybody has. It's kind of tied into a meritocracy, that you can design your own destiny-
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that your life should not be lived by default. Who are you to tell me what I can do? Remembering that Lily Phillips is British. We don't exactly have a flourishing culture of freedom at the moment in Britain.
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
We're not... You know, I'm in, I'm in Texas, like, th- the- the home of come and take it as a tagline. Um, the UK is, please feel free to come and take it. Uh, so yeah, it's just... It's- th- that's interesting to me that this sort of emancipation, liberation, freedom thing that everybody sort of bows down to, at some point you go, "Well, maybe we do need a kind of, sort of, like, paternalistic oversight position that we go on here." Maybe there's certain types of disposition. This isn't me saying that we need to step in and like, you know, have a fucking intervention with Lily Phillips. She's an adult and she can do what she wants, but-
- LPLouise Perry
I think a family should do that.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- LPLouise Perry
Where there's like, society does. So I... L- look, I think increasingly that agency is more like a personality trait than it is like a- an essential quality of human beings. I think that it's on a bell curve. I think it's probably actually a combination of different personality traits. It's probably a combination of, like, industriousness, mm-
- CWChris Williamson
Disagreeability.
- LPLouise Perry
... probably there's disagreeableness, probably there's some intelligence in there as well. I think there's, like, multiple things going on. But I think that some people are naturally more agentic than other people are. I'd... Like, Elon Musk, I think is an amazing example of the most agentic person you can imagine. He's just like, "I'm gonna go to Mars." He just decides, you know, age 30, "I'm gonna go to Mars. I'm gonna die on Mars." And he's just making it happen, right? (laughs) And he's just, like, done everything in his power to make it happen. Similarly, he's like, "I'm gonna have, you know, gazillions of kids," et cetera. He's just... He's one of these people who bends the world around his will, not the other way around, right? And most people aren't like that. Most people take- take life as it comes much more and are much more passive and just basically go along with what other people are doing and kind of follow life's scripts and hope for the best, and, like, things don't always work out for them, but they get on with it. Like, that's the normal way that people behave and I honestly think that's probably for the best. I- I don't think we want the entire world to be Elon Musks. I think it would be total chaos.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, well if- if... M- Michael Malice had an interesting take on this where he said, uh, a lot of the time people get criticized for looking up to role models too much, uh, sort of mimetically following the desires of others. But it's his position that for maybe most people, this is a Michael Malicism, not me saying it, maybe for most people they're too stupid to be able to design from first principles what they want to do with their life. So actually-
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah, of course.
- CWChris Williamson
... outsourcing your thinking and your life direction to someone who's cleverer than you is not a bad idea.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah. It's not even just... Cleverness is important. It's not even just that. It's also, um, wisdom. It's- it's just like the... What guardrails do is that they understand human beings better than human beings generally understand themselves and there will sometimes be some people who break the guardrails and it's for the best, you know? But in most cases, you should basically do what most other people do because there's a reason.
- CWChris Williamson
So my pushback... My- my- my pushback against that would be, you know, 50% the average American is obese, divorced and with less than 1K in the bank. So doing what everybody else does sounds like a safe option but it's actually a reliable route to a life that you probably definitely don't want. So in this we have a- we have a difficulty, right? Yes, there are lots of ways that you can try and do it yourself and fuck it up, like building your own car or something. It's like, hey, look-... people that are good at car building have tried this before. But this would be like if the car manufacturer market had more than a 50 percent fatality rate, or like more than a 50 percent like, you know, serious incident crash rate, and you saying, "Oh, I've actually got two quite difficult choices in front of me. I can sort of roll the dice on my own." So I guess you need to make... But (laughs) the people that need to make the judgment of, "Am I smart enough to be able to try and roll this on my own and build my own car?" are precisely the people that can't do that, and that actually need to follow it because they're maybe divorced or obese and one, less than 1K in the bank is better for them than had they have tried to do it from design, not from default.
- LPLouise Perry
So I think the reason that the average American is divorced, obese, and has less than one... It's like a, it's like a tongue tie, I can't do it. Anyway, um, is because we live in... We... Our society is set up in a maladaptive way for human nature, right? Like, the reason that people are obese is because there is a abundance of cheap calories available and no real need to do exercise. And this is kind of like, kind of a great thing, right? Like, we don't have to worry about famine in the way that our ancestors did but it clearly is terrible for people's waistlines. Similarly, the reason that divorce is so prevalent is 'cause of all the stuff that I've written and spoken about for so many years. You know, we don't encourage people to make good relationships decisions, and the institution of marriage was actually really good, and throwing it out the window was a mistake. And so basically, I think that if, um... We should be making... I, (sighs) so I think one of the s- one of the mis... A lot of people who are in positions of authority in all sorts of ways, whether that be in media or politics or whatever, tend to be really, really agentic people. They tend to be intelligent, yeah, but they also tend to be very good at basically bending life to their will, right? And those people often find it very difficult to empathize with people who aren't like that.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
Particularly 'cause we, it's not really something that we talk about, right? It's not like a... I mean, I've basically kind of made up the word agentic. It's not, (laughs) it's not really something that people are familiar with as a concept. Um, that means that they can find it really hard to... (sighs) You know, for instance, they'll just say, "Oh, just, just eat less and move more, you know? Why, why are people struggling with their weight? Like, this is ridiculous. I'm fine because I'm, have exceptionally good self-control, and I'm really conscientious, and I just design my life such so that I'm not tempted by empty calories." But and they d- it doesn't occur to them that most people aren't like that and aren't really capable of being that willful and theref- and these are exactly the same. People who will like dis- dismiss Ozempic or something and say, "Oh, we don't need any of this stuff because people can just eat less and move more." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I'm fascinated. I- i- it's a very unpopular position, still now a very unpopular position to be anything that isn't anti-Ozempic online. At least, eh, maybe I've made my own bed a little bit. You know, the audience agency is one of the most important things in my life and intentionality and, you know, desi- designing your life in the way that you want it to be. Uh, so (laughs) perhaps the chickens are coming home to roost in that regard. But yeah, uh, Ozempic and this sort of bolstering, this naturalistic fallacy sense that you should be using the willpower, that you should make it more difficult for yourself. You know, there's a, a, a new class of, um, psychiatric medication coming out. Uh, Wellbutrin is one of them, which is an SNRI rather than a SSRI. Uh, people use it, people that suffer with seasonal, uh, um, affective disorder can use it, and they can quite easily go on and go off within the space of sort of three to four months. And there's another new class as well, I can't remember the name of it. But all of those are kind of getting perilously close to just free happiness. So it's like, hey, are you a little bit more neurotic than you would like? Are you too high in neuroticism? Uh, does negative affect effect your life a little bit more than you would like? Well, maybe just, like, this is the Ozempic equivalent for your brain. And I understand that we have this long, illustrious history of SSRIs are one point on the Chapman scale out of 56 of depression, that dancing with somebody for one hour a week has three times the effectiveness of this with none of the side effects and all the rest of the stuff. But you have to assume that as medicine and science and our understanding of the human system becomes better that we are going to be able to design better drugs that impact people in a more effective way with fewer side effects. And you go, okay, well, if that's happening, at some point, we're going to reach health restriction escape velocity, and we're going to be able to just design shit that is negligible on side effects and does make your life better. In the same way, as you might be able to, y- you know, before the germ theory of disease, people just wouldn't... Oh, oh, it's tiny, invisible things? You mean it's not the, what was it called? Not efflusor. What was it that they thought it was carried through while they had those big, long noses?
- LPLouise Perry
Oh, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Not a- a- aroma. Fuck.
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs) I know exactly what word you mean. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Miasma.
- LPLouise Perry
Miasma. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, miasma. Um, you know, it's... You mean it's not, it's got nothing to do with it? You mean that my lavender in the end of this long beak isn't protecting me in this way? You know, and we just move forward, we move forward, and we get evermore sort of finely tuned. Um, but yeah, my-
- LPLouise Perry
I think every... So I- I'm also... I think Ozempic is great, (laughs) okay? And I think that everything has trade-offs. There probably are some trade-offs down the track with Ozempic. I don't think they're gonna be as catastrophic as the anti-Ozempic people hope they will be, right? Like, you do... It's really easy to find people on the internet who are like, "It's gonna make you blind. It's gonna cause you cancer," or whatever just because they sort of feel like fat people should be punished for not getting thin the right way.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
I think that the best comparison in terms of that social response in the history of medicine that I've come across is actually anesthesia. When anesthesia first became available-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, fascinating.
- LPLouise Perry
... there were people-
- 19:52 – 23:14
Why OnlyFans Isn’t a Good Career Choice
- LPLouise Perry
- CWChris Williamson
I learned from Daniel Sloss at his most recent live show, 'cause his wife and him have now had two kids, uh, I learned that women are given some weird cocktail of hormones, endogenously, that makes them forget how painful some areas of the process were of childbirth. Now, I... Are you gonna tell me this is, is true?
- LPLouise Perry
So you mean people get that naturally?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah. Uh, yeah, I think that is one of the things that happens.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. So, uh, Daniel does his live bit, and he's talking about, I think, mm, second child maybe was a complicated birth, and he's in the room. A- Anna Machin, Dr. Anna Machin says something not too dissimilar as well about her first child.
- LPLouise Perry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Complicated childbirth, a father who, you know, has been able to wrangle the world around himself, at least some amount of agency. He's managed to get this woman pregnant, that's not totally unagentic. And he's sat in the corner, literally with his dick in his hands, unable to help, unable to do anything, like the most spare prick in the entire room, as an army, like a Formula One style squadron of people in latex gloves move around the love of his life, carrying the next love of his life, and then something happens, and he doesn't know what's going on, and he can't help again. He's just, you know, completely trapped, completely helpless, and then th- s- t- a thing comes out, and everybody gets wheeled out of the room. In basically no time at all, everyone's wheeled out of the room. Mum goes to one room, child goes to another room or maybe the same room, I don't know, and nobody turns to look at dad. Nobody turns to say, "Are you okay? This is what's going on. Here's an update," because you're not a priority. But psychologically, the scars that come through from that, you know, the PTSD that men have post-childbirth isn't something I think that should be overlooked. And then his wife apparently during this, I don't know whether this is true or he's exaggerating for comic effect, she's screaming at him like, "You did this to me! I can't believe..." You know the classic sort of comedy sketch. And, uh, then maybe 12 hours later everything's okay. Baby's okay, Mum's okay, and Dad and baby and mum are reunited. And, uh, (laughs) she says, like later that day she turns to him, and she says, "That wasn't so bad, was it?"
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Like, "We should have another one."
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And Daniel's there shell-shocked, you know, like the old Battle of the Somme style shell-shocked.
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
He was still... Like, you know, his, his adrenals-
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... his adrenals are never going to recover. And, uh, he's like... And then he learned about this thing, and he's like, "Oh, women get this fucking amnesia drug for free."
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But Dad, Dad doesn't. So you've got this-
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... Jekyll and Hyde bipolar fucking wife in front of you. And, uh, yeah, I... The first time I ever learned about it, and I thought, "A- g- how have I got 36 years old, never learned about this?" Crazy.
- LPLouise Perry
I think it happens with the early newborn y- days as well. Like, there is a tendency to just forget how terrible it was, and then...
- CWChris Williamson
The sleep deprivation helps you forget-
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... the sleep deprivation.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah. And then the, um... And then you, like 6 or 12 months later, you're like, "I should have another baby." I'm already... Like, I had the most horrendous pregnancy, and my son is almost 6 months, and I'm already, like, drinking st-
- CWChris Williamson
Raring to go.
- LPLouise Perry
... juice again. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah. I'm like, "I should have another baby." I think... I mean, if it wasn't like that, the human species would-
- CWChris Williamson
It's done by-
- 23:14 – 32:19
The Hollowness of OnlyFans Wealth
- CWChris Williamson
Just to, just to sort of... I think there's maybe a little, uh, line that we can draw back to the Lily Phillips thing.
- LPLouise Perry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You, you mentioned about this kind of, "I'm on- I'm, I'm, I'm only good for one thing, me," when she's trying-
- LPLouise Perry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... to make a cup of tea or she burns some toast or something like that.
- LPLouise Perry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, I do see, and I remember this from being in, in nightlife, especially around girls that worked in strip clubs, and then, uh, you know, I had admireme.vip Chelsea Ferguson. She's the owner of an, uh, uh, OnlyFans competitor that's in the UK.
- LPLouise Perry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, I brought her on the podcast. I think she was episode maybe 150, something like that. I re- I wanted to know what it was like to do this. And there is this... I want to call it something else, but I can't think of it. There is kind of like this Stockholm syndrome thing where girls that begin to do some form of sexual capitalism go native in a weird way, and they s- start to maybe derogate their own capacities or what they could do outside of this. And, you know, it's like... It's- it's the guy that, um, uh, goes to a life of crime and believes that he can never, he can never stop. You know, "I... N- no job would ever have me" or, you know, "A straight life just wouldn't be for me. I'm just built to be in and out of jail." Or the addict that just believes that he's never supposed to get off drugs, that he's sort of not worthy of this thing. And, um, that made me sad. Now, in watching the Lily Phillips thing-It reminded me of s- some of the vibes that I felt when I used to work in nightlife and it was 3:00 in the morning and we'd go to the only place that was open, that was the strip club, and you know, these girls would be in there with some bachelor dude on his ... stag dude cheating on his wife for the final time before ... or cheating on his fiance for the final time before he can. Seeing the worst of men in their, you know, warped, drunken, late-night desires and, uh, yeah, it- it's ... That bit was probably the least comfortable bit. It wasn't the end of the sex thing. Seeing her cry was uncomfortable and that- that- that was pretty un-dialed but the fact that you've sort of internalized this story that you've told yourself, which is a combination of self-deprecation and a coping mechanism to be able to justify why this is the thing that you can continue to do, even though it's evident that it's not your thing. Like if- if- if Bonnie Blue is the LeBron James of fucking guys and not catching feelings, you're- (laughs) you're like LeBron James' 5'6 cousin.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah. (laughs) Um, I interviewed Andrea Hines recently who is, um ... used to be in the sex industry. Uh, r- really interesting and lookin' at-
- CWChris Williamson
Is that the lady that you looped me in with?
- LPLouise Perry
Different lady.
- CWChris Williamson
All right.
- LPLouise Perry
Als- uh, also very interesting. The specific thing that Andrea talks about is, um, how being in the sex industry ... Like, to be more explicit, like being in prostitution, right, not just camming or whatever, um, is a bit like being in an abusive relationship except you're i- in an abusive relationship with, like, hundreds of men. So it's not, um ... It's clearly different but in terms of the psychological effect, it's very similar. And she talks about the sort of, um, the s- the psychological cycles you end up in which are very similar to domestic violence. Like you say, that feeling of, "I'm not c- I'm ... I can't do anything else. I'm not good enough for anything else." But equally you do also have the highs where you're like, "Wow, I'm earning so much money," or, you know, "I've got out of whatever bad situation I was in which led me to try prostitution." Like, there are ups and downs but the- the risk is that you get ... yeah, you end up in this kind of rut. And one of the things that she talks about, and I've heard other women talk about as well, is how actually you can earn really quite a lot of money. I mean, prostitution definitely pays more per hour than almost anything else.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- LPLouise Perry
And definitely more than the, like ... the, uh, realistic other jobs that many of these women could have. Um, but often the money sort of disappears because often, one, you're gonna wanna spend money to feel better because you feel really dreadful-
- CWChris Williamson
Very interesting.
- LPLouise Perry
... and you feel worse as time goes by. And so you wanna ... And so you might spend money on drugs, you know, that's one obvious ... Alcohol. But also you might spend money on, like, expensive stuff you don't need or clothes or-
- CWChris Williamson
Extraction. The holidays, clothing.
- LPLouise Perry
Exactly, because you wanna feel like it's worth it and just putting it in a savings account doesn't make you feel like that. There's also a feeling which a lot of women speak about, that the money is sort of dirty, particularly if it's cash, because y- you know what it's for. Like, you know why you've got it and it has ... There's almost that compulsion to, like, just get rid of it. Which is why ... I mean, Lily Phillips is clearly making those money, Bonnie Blue is making loads of money. I don't necessarily think, though, that means they're set up for life because, one, HMLC is gonna take half of it.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs) Assuming that they're paying their taxes, which I'm sure they are.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- LPLouise Perry
Um, two, think how much money you actually need to earn in, like, a two or three year period in order to spend your whole life-
- CWChris Williamson
You're set up for life.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah. Like, that's actually massive, massive sums and I'd be really surprised if they're big enough-
- CWChris Williamson
You're talking about nine figures, to be able to-
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... not have to do it again and I- I mean-
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah.
- 32:19 – 46:22
What is Causing the Decline of Marriage?
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about the declining rates for marriage, because this is a trend that's been going on for a while. I think we've got whatever it is, 38% of Gen Z saying that they're not having sex, we've got sex recession and all the rest of it. But I do get the sense that more worrying than that is the casual sex coming and going unless it, I don't know, precedes more meaningful relationships happening. I- I- I- I- I don't know what the sort of, uh, heritage is there. Uh, but the marriage thing I think seems to be a little bit more concerning. So, have you had a look at this? Have you thought about what's going on here, modern marriage trends?
- LPLouise Perry
Um, can I just repeat the take of a different Modern Wisdom guest, which is Lyman Stone? Because I interviewed him the other day, and he had a view on this which I found so interesting and actually really, like, pulled together a lot of the things I'd been confused about when looking at marriage rates and fertility and all the stuff that I'm writing about.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
He doesn't think that actually, uh... He basically thinks the only thing that is wrong with fertility rates in the West is... I mean, he's looking at America, but this applies to Britain as well. Is, um, people getting married late. He thinks that's the only problem. Because actually, once people are married, they tend to have kids. (laughs) Like, you know, it- it's- it's almost like you get married and you're like, "Well, what else are we gonna do?" Right? He says that actually the number of people who are married and are deliberately not having children, like the DINKs-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
... they're quite culturally prominent, but they're actually rare. There aren't very many people who do that. Most people get married, and if they can, they will have some children, right? But- but when people are getting married into like... I think the average age of first marriage now is over 30, definitely. And the average age of marriage in general is quite old, because people who get married multiple times-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
... they can't put as high a number of marriages, so they drag it up. But, um, you know, in- during the baby boom, um, the average age of first marriage was so young. It was like 22 or something. Really young. And even in the '80s, I got married when I was 25, which is basically a child bride in my peer group.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- LPLouise Perry
In the '80s, that was average, right? So, people are basically just skipping the whole of their 20s (laughs) during which they could've been having children-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
... because they're not actually coupling up until later, or they're not coupling up at all. So, Lyman's take, and I think it's actually a really interesting one, it's not to do, it's not... Well, sorry. People often say, "It's just to do with housing. It's just because housing is expensive," or, "It's just to do with the availability of contraception," or, "It's just to do with feminism telling women that, like, they're girlbosses and they don't need to have kids," whatever. He says, "No, it's actually just a coordination problem. It's actually just that people are not getting married sufficiently early, so that they then have the whole of their reproductive lives ahead of them and can have, you know, 2.5 kids." But that is linked to the other stuff in the sense that he thinks, and I think this is really persuasive, that the reason people aren't getting married younger is because men in their 20s are not able to, for various reasons, signal their suitability as husbands, in a way they used, they used to.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
Because what women are looking for when they're looking for a husband is someone who they know is going to be reliable during moments of difficulty when they have children. Because when you're pregnant and when you're nursing and you've got young children, you simultaneously need more resources-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
... and also have less ability to get those resources for yourself. So, you're in a real pickle. (laughs) And, uh, like the person or people who can provide that for you, like you, I mean, you need them, you need some- you need someone, and the obvious person is the father of your children.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
And that's- that's what monogamous marriage is, basically like legally obliging men to step up during those moments.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
Um, and so women are looking for a man who will do that, and who will, uh, who- who is capable of providing those resources in that difficult moment. And they look for signals in men that, that they're up to that, you know, and wealth is one of them. Um, but there are other ways of showing it as well. Like, um, going to an elite university, that's pretty good. Um, or, uh, um, running your own business, or military service, that's an interesting example. It may-
- CWChris Williamson
Down to about 3% I think, compared with 50% in the 1940s. Yeah.
- LPLouise Perry
That, I, I asked Lyman this and he was like, yeah, he, he, l- he thought it was true. Is it possible that part of the reason there was a post-war baby boom, particularly in America, is because so many men had had military service and they'd had this opportunity to demonstrate their suitability as fathers and husbands?
- CWChris Williamson
See, see how reliable I am-
- LPLouise Perry
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
... I just went to war, I can raise your child.
- LPLouise Perry
Exactly. Yeah. Like, we don't... It is harder now for young men to, to do that costly signal and to say, like, it's harder to buy property, depending on where you are, but it is generally harder to buy property when you're younger. Um, the nature of everyone going to university (laughs) actually is kind of... Well, not everyone, but when lots of people go to university, it actually devalues the signal and it also basically extends your adolescence in that you don't, you can't start your business, buy a property, do whatever until you've graduated, and this just, like, pushes further and further into your 20s.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
Um, yeah, military service, as you say, much less common. Basically, the ways that men could demonstrate their, that they are up to being fathers and husbands have become scarcer. And it's, it's no good if you start, like, if you gain those costly signals in your 50s (laughs) , right? Because at that point, like, you're outside of the reproductive wi- window. It has to be really in your 20s or maybe in your early 30s. And that is exactly, I think, what we are missing right now. And maybe that's, maybe that's the key thing. Maybe that's why, like, birthrates are falling off a cliff. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things going on. But certainly comparatively, if you were to roll in whatever, uh, uh, Mal- Malcolm Collins' or, uh, Stephen J. Shaw's idea around this, that as females who seem to be much better at all types of education, socio- socioeconomic success in the modern world is pretty much laid at their feet until they pay the motherhood tax in their 30s or whatever.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah.
- 46:22 – 58:13
The Politicisation of Birth Rates
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think it is that, uh, anytime anybody wants to bring up declining birth rates and marriage that it's seen as a right wing or fascist talking point?
- LPLouise Perry
Um, well, I could say that they shouldn't think that because basically all societies are like interested in the fertility of their people. Um, and there are loads of examples of definitely not fascist at all countries having pro-natal policies. Like South Korea would be an example. France has had all sorts of pro-natal policies for years, whatever. Um, I think that would be slightly dodging the question though, because I think what people mean there is like, um, why does it matter if countries die out? Like, "Why do you care so much," is kind of- (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
... the, the question that's been invited there.
- CWChris Williamson
To push back against nationalism in a way?
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah, I think so. And to push back against any kind of in-group preference. Um, which is, yeah, I mean that's like a fundamental difference between right and left. Like, do you think... You know the concentric circles heat map thing? I'm sure you've seen that shared online as such a classic meme.
- CWChris Williamson
I've seen it, I've seen it shared online and I'd, I've never actually understood what it was. So it's one of those memes that just went, kept going over my head and I pre-
- LPLouise Perry
It's so- (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I just like grinned in the corner and was like, "Yeah, yeah, sure."
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"Heat map." Hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
Sometimes it gets misrepresented as people on the left literally care more about tran, uh, plants and trees than they do about their own families-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
... which I don't think is true and doesn't s- sort of pass the sniff test, does it, really? (laughs) But what it does describe is that people on the right tend to be quite happy and confident in just saying like, "Yeah, I care most about my family, and then, and then about my extended family, and then my community, and then my country, and then whatever, fine." Like I don't, I'm not embarrassed to say that that's my preference. Whereas people on the left tend not to do that and to say, "No, actually I have like universalist aspirations. I should care just as much about a child on the other side of the world as a child in my own neighborhood." Um, and this can lead to some quite perverse preferences. I think that in practice people actually normally don't really behave like that. I don't think that anyone really does care as much about people on the other side of the world as people close to them. But it is a sort of problem within leftist thought that you're, you're, you're sort of not allowed to care more about people close to you.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. It-
- LPLouise Perry
You're like, y-
- CWChris Williamson
(clears throat) Even if-
- LPLouise Perry
Universalism is the ideal.
- CWChris Williamson
Even, even if that doesn't appear in practice, it appears in rhetoric.... and-
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that, that's what you're able to espouse online.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah. I think also what often happens in practice is actually, um... This is me being a bit cynical, but I think sometimes commitment to the far out-group, as Scott Alexander has called it-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
... um, can be a stick with which to beat the near out-group (laughs) , right? So if, say, you're an American, um, Democrat, and actually the people that you feel the most animosity towards are American Republicans-
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- LPLouise Perry
... right, they're your near out-group. They're the people who you actually are most preoccupied with, in terms of the people that you dislike. Whereas your far out-group might be, I don't know, people who live in China, who actually you don't really think about very much and (laughs) sometimes expressing... China is probably a bad example. Haiti-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- LPLouise Perry
... okay, sometimes expressing a really, really, like, fierce loyalty with the people of Haiti might be a little bit insincere and might actually just be a, a stick with which to beat-
- CWChris Williamson
What's the-
- LPLouise Perry
... the rednecks down the street that you don't like? (laughs)
- 58:13 – 1:03:00
Consequences of Changing Population Trends
- CWChris Williamson
what I had in mind. This is the first time I've heard anyone put words to it but it makes complete sense. It's nate- natal fatalism, right?
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That we are on this particular set of roller coaster tracks. I, l- just to call it out for the people that maybe aren't behaviorally, uh, behavioral genetics pilled, uh, your political ideology, the positions that you tend to take on lots of issues, is highly predisposed by your personality and your personality is highly predisposed by, it's heritable, it's disposed by your parents. If you are part of a ideological group which is less likely to have children, that means that that group's genes, the, the ideology genes are less likely to be passed on which means that that ideology gets less predisposed to over time and dies out. So you end up with over time you should do basically people who have kids have kids and those kids are more likely to be the kid having type of kids which means that they continue, but if you've got this squeeze that we're going through at the moment, it may end up looking a lot like an hourglass where you have sort of wide, lots of people liberated, everyone can do it. You get some technologies and some environmental changes which causes this to stop and then you select out and then come through on the other side when you have a critical mass of people who are the children of kid havers even in the new environment and then you get through that, but you're right. I mean the next 300 years probably, I don't know. Has anyone done far out like, uh, real far out projections like centuries away projections to see when this sort of thing would rebound?
- LPLouise Perry
Um, if anyone has it's probably Malcolm and Simone Collins. Um, I mean they've definitely spoken about the risk actually of having a J-curve in terms of population explosion where the very, very fertile people are selected for so aggressively, which is I think what's happening right now, that actually you see this massive explosion when they get to the next generation's head.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. So we've had population boom which was an issue, population bust which is an issue and then population double boom which is a bigger issue.
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs) Yeah, I mean the big question there though, um, I wrote an essay about this recently actually for First Things, is, is whether or not modernity can survive as such because if you look at the groups right now that are doing really well in terms of fertility, it's people like the Amish, it's ultra-Orthodox Jews, it's people who actually have not embraced modernity really. I mean they're living within modern societies and to some extent they get to piggyback off some of s- for instance the health infrastructure of modern societies. Like the Amish actually have very low infant mortality rate even though they basically have nineteenth century technology but they don't have nineteenth century infant mortality and I think that must be because they live in America which has low infant mortality and so there isn't a lot of communicable diseases that they're vulnerable to.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- LPLouise Perry
I don't know if they vaccinate but, you know, they're not at risk of waves of smallpox and bubonic plague and stuff because the rest of America is keep-
- CWChris Williamson
They're protected by everybody else.
- LPLouise Perry
... keeping a check on that. Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- LPLouise Perry
However, are the Amish actually capable of maintaining that kind of medical infrastructure long term?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- LPLouise Perry
Like if the me- if, if the entire country just, just not, not because of their intelligence or whatever but just because that's not what they're minded to do-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- LPLouise Perry
... like if the entire country was composed of Amish people...... would America still have great health and infrastructure, and would you still have really low child mortality? I don't know. So it might be that the thing that, the two things that keep a lid on population explosion, one is mortality, the other is fertility. The, the, the magic combo is the group that can do both, right, that can be highly fertile and keep their children alive. Because we, like, we must not forget that in most times and places, the child mortality rate is almost 50%. So, and that's the great miracle of the modern world, and, uh, as a mum, that is a thing I do not want to let go of. Like, sometimes people will be very, um, flippant about tech and say, "Oh, you know, smartphones are rubbish. Oh," you know, like, like... Yes, there are all sorts of things about tech that we don't really like. You know what no one wants to get rid of? And that's C-sections and antibiotics and all of this miraculous h- I mean, I would be dead, my son would be dead if we hadn't had medi- modern medical technology in my most recent, in my most recent pregnancy.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
Like, this is serious stuff. And that's the thing... Of all the stuff that worries me about the fertility crash, it's not, it's not losing the welfare state, it's-
- CWChris Williamson
It's not the numbers, it's the technology that comes along with it.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah. It's whether the people who come out of this bottleneck are capable of maintaining the tine of, the type of medical tech which I really want to be maintained. That's, that's my, my biggest worry about this.
- CWChris Williamson
That's scary, and that's something that I hadn't considered. And you've now given me another thing to be worried about.
- LPLouise Perry
Sorry.
- CWChris Williamson
It's okay. It's fine. I'll just add it to the list.
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs) Although, on the plus side, right, like if there is a group... At the moment, Israel is probably in the lead for this, right? If there is a group that can manage to be both fertile and high-tech, they, they will dominate the world.
- CWChris Williamson
Laughing.
- LPLouise Perry
They will have the world at their feet.
- CWChris Williamson
My
- 1:03:00 – 1:07:15
The Mimetic Desire to Be a Parent
- CWChris Williamson
housemate, uh, his sister recently had her first child, and he, uh, drove to go and see her, and this kid's, you know, weeks old. And he said that he held this baby in his arms and sort of looked down and realized that it was his genetic progeny and felt this... Uh, genetic relative. Felt this, um, sort of surge of, of meaning go through him that he hadn't felt before. This is the first, uh, nephew or niece that he's ever held. First baby that's kind of his, in his vicinity of genes that he's ever held. And, um, he said, uh, he's, uh, got a contrarian opinion that he doesn't want to have kids until he's 50. He's just gonna, like, lone ranger, solopreneur it, make all of the money, have all of the life experiences, and then lock in at 50 and just go to town. I think w- a bunch of our-
- LPLouise Perry
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... friends start... I know, classic man.
- LPLouise Perry
I'm so envious, yeah, yeah (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
Classic man. Um, however, uh, he basically said he sort of felt this surge of genetic dynasty sort of go through him. And it got me thinking, we both had a long conversation about this, uh, the sort of desire to be a parent being memetic. Not only in close friend groups that you see friends have kids which makes you think about having kids, or you don't see friends having kids which makes you less likely to have kids.
- LPLouise Perry
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Also, if family sizes are reducing, I know that there's d- it seems like the data's kind of mixed on this, like, if you have one kid, uh, one child, it's likely that you're gonna have blah, blah, blah. Um, but if you have fewer siblings to show you what it's like to have children, maybe that sort of memetic desire to become a parent gets turned down. And, you know, you have this kind of recursive loop of fewer mothers beget fewer role models showing other non-mother women how it, what it's like to be a mother and extolling the virtues. It's like the best advertising campaign ever. The thin end of the wedge is your friend that's just had a kid and is loving it. But if you don't have any friends that have had kids yet, then nobody wants to be the first mover unless you've got that Elon Musk of women that's gonna go and be agentic and, or, or Bonnie Blue I suppose.
- LPLouise Perry
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, uh, so yeah, what... Memetic desire to be a parent. What, what do you reckon there?
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah. I think that's a massive factor, and it, uh, that is really interesting about nieces and nephews. I hadn't really thought about it in that way. 'Cause yeah, it is, it's hard to overstate how magic it is. You don't... When you have a baby, you don't just have a baby, you have your baby, right? And, like, your baby is different from all other babies because your baby looks like you and is... Like, it's, it's the most amazing thing to, like... Like, my eldest has my eyes exactly, and it's such a strange and amazing feeling to look at this person that you love more than anything, and they have your eyes, right? Like, there's just nothing like it. And I can see how if you can get, like, a echo of that through having nieces and nephews or cousins or whatever, um, which could be very motivating. Or indeed your, your, your friends have children as well. I think there probably is a kind of vicious cycle where, and a virtuous cycle where, um, when you live in a low fertility culture, it becomes harder to have children because nothing is really set up for children and the expectation is that you won't have them. Um, just things like I'm taking my kids on a plane for the first time, um, and not just on a plane but on a plane to Australia (laughs) in like two weeks. And I am... One of the reasons I'm nervous is not because... I actually think they'll be quite good, but the thing that makes me nervous is actually other people on the plane being unpleasant to us-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- LPLouise Perry
... because they don't think children belong there and they're not used to seeing children in public spaces, let alone on airplanes.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
And yeah, you just, there are so many, there are so many issues you encounter when you have children and very few other people do where people are just, um, not even necessarily hostile but just clueless. And it just makes life more difficult in all sorts of ways. Um, and I think the flip side, so I hear from people who live in very fertile societies, is it becomes super normal and the infrastructure is there and there's always a kind of waiting pair of hands to hold your baby if you need t- you need them to. And yeah, I think that there's definitely a sense in which, um, what other people are doing makes a massive impact on what you do and what's easy for you to do.
- 1:07:15 – 1:12:17
What Louise Has Learned From Motherhood
- LPLouise Perry
- CWChris Williamson
Given that you're now a mother of two, what have you learned about optimal parenting and the perils of the pressure of trying to be an optimal parent and how resilient children are and stuff like that?
- LPLouise Perry
... optimal parenting. Um, I think, so going back actually interestingly to like the inter- doomerism about, say, environmentalists who don't want to have kids 'cause they're massive doomers, I've been thinking recently about the role of neuroticism in parenting because, you know, you'll know that women are more neurotic wi- than men, like quite a lot. And that difference only comes on at puberty. And it seems likely that the reason women are more neurotic than men is mostly to do with the fact that women are mothers who are primarily responsible for little children. And actually, Jordan Peterson likes to talk about this painting, I don't, and I can't remember the, the name of the painter who, which is of, um, um, the virgin mother holding the infant Christ, um-
- CWChris Williamson
M- Michelangelo's Pieta, it's a sculpture.
- LPLouise Perry
Well, is it? And with the snake on the floor?
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, interesting. Maybe n- maybe or maybe not.
- LPLouise Perry
It's like, I think this is a painting rather than a sculpture, but I can't-
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- LPLouise Perry
... remember the artist. She's holding the infant Christ because there's a snake on the floor, and she's like got her foot on the snake.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, okay.
- LPLouise Perry
And is basically protecting her infant from the snake. And he always holds this up as like the archetypal image of, of protec- of the protective mother.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
And, um, uh, it, and I can confirm, you get super neurotic when you're a, you know. I, a friend of mine warned me before I had my first, "You will behave in ways as a new mother that would have you diagnosed as OCD in any other circumstance, but i- in this instance, it's actually fine and it's normal and you'll get over it." But the neuroticism is adaptive. It's not very pleasant, but it is adaptive because neurotic mothers historically were the ones who, you know, spotted the snake on the ground or took whatever protective measures necessary in order to protect their children.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
I now wonder if neuroticism (laughs) might be doing the opposite. I wonder if actually neuroticism might be discouraging people from having children. I feel like the super neurotic people who are so worried about climate apocalypse that they don't have children at all.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
But also even, I mean, I notice in myself, I'm quite a neurotic person and I just worry about things, one of the differences between me and, uh, mums I know who have lots of kids close together is that they are generally much more chill and much more willing to just kind of let their kids get on with it and not be constantly following them around and not be, just not worrying too much as kind of being, not being helicopter parents, just being chill.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
And I recognize in myself that I find that really difficult to do, and I would really struggle to have, say, three under three because you just have to, i- like in reality, if you've got three kids under three and you don't have those nannies or whatever, you just have to let the kids get on with it and just- (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- LPLouise Perry
... and not fuss too much. And, and certainly not be too worried about your house being too tidy and, you know. Like actually, the sort of personality that I wonder if is now being selected for in terms of people who are willing to have kids are people who are actually quite chill and quite, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Ah, we'll just do it. Who don't, you know, who-
- LPLouise Perry
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
... cares about the state of the economy? Who cares about the, the carbon parts per million?
- LPLouise Perry
Exactly, who don't get themselves all, like, so wrapped up that they're too, that they're too worried to just go ahead and do it. And then when they do have children they're like, "Oh, we'll have another one. We'll make it work," whatever. Like-
- CWChris Williamson
Run it back.
- LPLouise Perry
Yeah, exactly. I wonder if neuroticism is now being selected against.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow, that's interesting.
- LPLouise Perry
E- yeah, it's just my hypothesis but, and, and like my impression from looking around at people.
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, you-
- 1:12:17 – 1:16:26
Gender Neutrality in Parenting
- CWChris Williamson
much, uh, gender neutrality can there be in parenting? Now that you've got a full two split tests to be able to compare, uh, what have you learned about gender neutrality?
- LPLouise Perry
Um, I think that male children are- (laughs) not really different from female children. I mean, I don't have a girl, I've got two boys, right? So I don't have a girl yet.
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- LPLouise Perry
Um, uh, I have definitely learnt that I can completely see why little boys are diagnosed more with ADHD than little girls are. Because actually the normal way that little boys behave is much further towards the ADHD type of behavior than the normal way that little girls behave. I'm amazed when f- friends bring round their little girls, like two-year-old girls who just sit at the table, like quietly coloring. Um, my, my son does not do that. (laughs) Other son, other, other little boys I know do not do that. They are much, much more rambunctious. And actually, it is really difficult sometimes, um, fitting the, the character of little boys around the demands of modern life. I mean-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- LPLouise Perry
... I don't think it's a coincidence that, um, ADHD diagnoses go up-... at the same time that we're expecting little boys to sit quietly on their mat all day in school and being, uh, it's just, this is not what they li- this not what they-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it's, it's so fascinating, right?
- LPLouise Perry
... wanna do.
- CWChris Williamson
I, I don't know, I, I certainly know that ADHD diagnoses are increasing, but I don't know whether the DSM criteria with which ADHD is diagnosed has remained stable across time. Uh, or whether there is just, well, this new more peaceful l- more brains, less brawn style world, it's kind of just inconvenient for these boys to be the way that they are and, you know, you have, uh, you could argue perhaps that apart from being a huge step change, anything that's within sort of the 95th to the 5th percentile of any trait is like just, that's just normal. Like, all of that is normal, even out to pretty close to the tails, that's just, that's just pretty normal. But as soon as it begins to get inconvenient, it's kind of simpler to just register that as a thing, some sort of pathology, something that needs treating, something that needs therapy or, or, or, or medication. And yeah, I can just see how you go, "Well, look at the gold standard. The, they're just, they sit there, they color in, they clean up after themselves, you know, the dolls." And then I look over the far side and there's a hole in the door.
Episode duration: 1:29:00
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