EVERY SPOKEN WORD
65 min read · 12,566 words- 0:00 – 3:40
Why Do Some of Our Goals Feel Meaningless?
- CWChris Williamson
Given all of the work that you've done, why is it that some goals feel effortless and others-
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... feel like a chore?
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. It's such an interesting question, and that, that was what I wanted to figure out with this book. Because I, I find with my own life, I'm, I'm productive on a daily basis, I'm focused on a daily-- As you would hope, gi-given I study this stuff for a living, [chuckles] looking at the research for this stuff for a living. But there were still goals that kind of fell by the wayside for me. You know, there, exercise equipment that was in the basement that I hadn't really followed through with. You know, things that didn't really fire me up inside that I found that I wasn't really accomplishing. And so that, that was what set me on this journey to write this book, is seeing that we all have [clears throat] a sort of graveyard of forgotten goals. Every single person on the planet [chuckles] does. And so what is it that actually separates the goals that we're able to achieve and follow through with, um, from the ones that we're not? And y-you, you-- when you dig into the research on this topic, so I, I dug into the academic literature on this topic. I actually spoke with a lot of Buddhist monks who, you know, know more about intentionality than almost any demographic, I would argue. Even, uh, the scientists that study intentionality and goal attainment, all i-in an effort to, to untangle that web of essentially goal attainment, right? Why is it that we attain some goals, and others, they feel meaningless, we procrastinate on them, that we pro- you know, we, we kick them down the street for another day, or they're just not something that fires us up inside. And so you, you discover a web of factors. You d- you discover, you know, procrastination is, is one, uh, angle, right? We procrastinate on some things when we follow through on others. Values are another angle, actually, where, you know, values, my eyes have always glazed over when I've heard the-- What are you drinking there, by the way? It looks g- It's like pretty looking can.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, this is, I, I... This is one of the rare times that I'm drinking something that, uh, I'm not sponsored by. This is a Bloom-
- CBChris Bailey
Wow!
- CWChris Williamson
This is a Bloom Pop. Um-
- CBChris Bailey
How lovely
- CWChris Williamson
Hold on. By the way, everybody, everyone's like, "Fuck, I wanna know what it is after procrastination. He was talking about values."
- CBChris Bailey
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so this is, this is, uh, Bloom Pop. So my friend Greg Levecchia, um, he owns this company called Bloom. They do green drinks. And, uh, this is a l- like a poppy or an ollie pop, if you're familiar with that. Uh-
- CBChris Bailey
No
- CWChris Williamson
... this stuff-
- CBChris Bailey
Is that a UK thing?
- CWChris Williamson
No, I mean Texas, dude. Uh, this-
- CBChris Bailey
Oh, oh, okay
- CWChris Williamson
... this-
- CBChris Bailey
I'm Canadian, though.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I've-- Well, okay, maybe it hasn't got there. You guys have just re-
- CBChris Bailey
Okay, yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... received the fucking wheel.
- CBChris Bailey
Let's go get Michael Jackson up. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
This Bloom Pop stuff fucking rips, dude. It's so tasty.
- CBChris Bailey
Oh, wow.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm a massive fan of a chilled beverage.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah, yeah, yeah
- CWChris Williamson
I'm a big chilled beverage guy. Uh, so highly recommend. This is the raspberry lemonade. And I'm not sponsored, but Greg was at my house for, um, uh, the Super Bowl, and he brought round cases and cases of it. So-
- CBChris Bailey
Oh, nice
- CWChris Williamson
... I'm, I'm currently ashamed by that
- CBChris Bailey
Well, shame on him for, uh, for not sponsoring you, first of all. But yeah, so, [chuckles] so there's this web of, uh, of things that, that affect how much, uh, how many of our goals we attain. From, you know, I procrastinate on [chuckles] the answer. Pro-procrastination-
- 3:40 – 9:06
Goals vs Values: What Actually Drives You?
- CBChris Bailey
that too.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Talk to me about the science behind values.
- CBChris Bailey
Okay. Yes. So whenever I hear the word values, my eyes have glazed over, 'cause I think, you know, some corporate consultant will come in, and they'll give you a sheet of paper, and there's 100 values on it. And this is exactly what comes to my mind when I've heard it. And the, there'll be 100 words on the page, and they'll say, "Circle the, the, the things that you value most on this page." And there'll be words like humor and grace and love and health and fitness and, you know, all the, all the things that we all care about. And [chuckles] so, you know, part of me will wanna circle the whole page 'cause I think how can I be against any of this stuff. But all, all you have to do to figure out values is go to Google Scholar and type in values. The research does come up, right up. Um, there is incredible research, in, in my opinion, uh, that was started by Shalom Schwartz. He's probably the world's foremost expert on values in the world, where essentially there are 12 different fundamental motivations that we all have on a deep and fundamental level. So these vary from, you know, looking at you, y- y- self-direction, right, would be one aspect. Accomplishment is another strong value for a lot of people. Um, but it, they vary, right? Pleasure i- is a fundamental human value as well, which is one of my highest. Self-direction and pleasure are, are my highest. So [clears throat] I love going my own way, doing my own thing, thinking my own thoughts, but I love, um, a, a, a gigantic plate of butter chicken at the end of the day, for example. So we all have the, a, a different combination of these 12 values. You know, from self-direction to, uh, conformity is actually a fundamental value to tradition.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
Humility is a fundamental value as well, uh, to benevolence, so kindness. Universalism, uh, which is protecting the welfare of people and of nature. Um, I have the wheel in front of me here, so I'm cheating a little bit with the ones I missed. So self-direction. Stimulation, which is loving novelty. Um, [clears throat] pleasure, which is called hedonism in the research, but that has a lot of, [chuckles] you know, sultry connotations, I guess. Um, achievement. Power is a fundamental human value. Curious, it's l- its lowest overall. Um-Cross-culturally especially. Face is a value, so how you come across to other people, that's what that means. Security is a fundamental value, so that's personal security and societal security. That's been going up in recent years. Uh, tradition got that. Conformity, I think I mentioned. Yeah, humility, universalism, and benevolence. So these 12 fundamental values-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- CBChris Bailey
... we are all a, a distinct combination of these 12. We have some in spades, like for me, self-direction and pleasure/hedonism, and some are super low for us. So power is one of my lowest value, conformity is one of my lowest, tradition is one of my lowest. Um, and you know, like attracts like, so we're probably very similar. Listeners are probably very similar in these regards. Um, but we all have different values that are strongest for us, and these are what motivate us the most-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- CBChris Bailey
... on a deep, fundamental human level.
- CWChris Williamson
[clears throat] Goals aren't values, though. [clears throat]
- CBChris Bailey
No. No. So I, I... So goals-- The interesting thing about goals that I really started to, to believe in speaking with the monks. You're right, goals are not values.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
But I, I think goals and values are both almost intentions in our life, right? Because a value is something that we intend to be over the course of our life, right? We intend to be, uh, somebody who is secure, and so that might lead us to different priorities, like fitness for example. A lot of people invest in fitness for that value of security. Other people might value the, um, a-accomplishment value in becoming fitter. Other people might l- you know, to have a body that they feel proud of, for example. And, and goals are intentions as well, right? Because they're something that we plan to do over a longer period of time. And values are intentions as well because they're something that we intend to be.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
And so i-i, this is, this was the very interesting connection is, you know, an intention is just a plan that we're gonna do something. And so va-values are a type of intention. Uh, priorities are a type of intention, right? Because they're something that we plan to be.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
They kinda live between our, our values and our goals. Goals are a type of intention because they're something that we plan to do. Um, prior- you know, priorities are our goals. A-and also the plans that we make are intentions, and the things that we, are, are on our to-do list on a daily basis are intentions. So this is the fascinating thi- this is why [chuckles] the book is called Intentional because we have all these different layers of intention in our life. And so by understanding these layers and how they can work together with one another, that becomes a superpower. That is one of the best things that we can do for goal attainment.
- 9:06 – 14:39
How Do We Align Goals and Values?
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Explain to me how all of these different things slot together. I imagine that you must have a hierarchy of the way that these things end up becoming a pyramid.
- CBChris Bailey
Yes. Oh, yes. They, they are kinda shaped like a pyramid because you can think of the... I'm flipping through the book. I don't k- what, what, what's the ratio between how many people listen to these things versus watch, uh, your interviews? Do you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Well, now that you can do video on Spotify, uh, it, the audio platforms aren't even insulated from having to look at us. So it's, uh, it's pretty high. I mean, if you, even just YouTube versus Spotify is nearly pretty 50/50. There's a lot-
- CBChris Bailey
Oh, interesting
- CWChris Williamson
... audio is, audio is huge, yeah.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Audio is actually probably about 60%. But, um-
- CBChris Bailey
Okay
- CWChris Williamson
... yeah, it's, uh, it, a lot of people will be looking, but you might have to-
- CBChris Bailey
Okay
- CWChris Williamson
... describe what you're about to show for the people who aren't.
- CBChris Bailey
Okay. [chuckles] So I was just flipping through the book while you were chatting, and there's one of my wife's hairs on the book for some reason. [chuckles] So this is something in the book that I call the intention stack. It's flipped on my screen, but it-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- CBChris Bailey
... it'll probably flip-
- CWChris Williamson
It looks great
- CBChris Bailey
... back properly. Okay, perfect. So you can see [chuckles] how's this for production quality, holding up a picture from, from-
- CWChris Williamson
Elite. Absolutely elite.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. This is, this is top tier, S-tier production quality right here. So you can see that the width of one of our intentions is how long we, we express it over, right? So a, a, at the very bottom of this, it's kinda shaped like a, like a funnel almost. Um, we have our present intentions. These, these are the things that are on our to-do list, right? You know, we have a tiny intention to tie our shoelaces to go for a run or something. Um, and then we have above the present intentions... Now, now you got me all self-conscious 'cause so many people watch your podcast, and I'm thinking, "H-how are my nails today?" 'Cause my nails are [chuckles] -
- CWChris Williamson
You look fantastic.
- CBChris Bailey
[chuckles] So above the present intentions we have are our plans, which are a bit broader. So a present intention to tie your shoelaces might fit into a plan to go for a run, and that might fit into even something broader than that, which is a goal to run a marathon in a certain amount of time, which might fit into a broader intention than that called a priority, which might fit into becoming a, a ultra fit, which might fit into a value which we talked about. So fitness value, it ac-actually it varies depending on gender, which is interesting for fitness, um, uh, type priorities, where as women are more likely to, uh, see becoming fitter as an expression of pleasure, right? Because they feel better in their bodies.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
Whereas men tend to err more on, uh, on other values like security, right, feeling strong and, and stable in their body, as well as values like accomplishment. So, so this is what I call the intention stack in the book, where there's this beautiful al-alignment that can happen when we have a goal that we set, which is kind of a medium-term intention in our life. When that is aligned with a valueThat becomes far, far more motivating than a goal that isn't. So, you know, to, to keep with the fitness example, I think a lot of us build our, uh, uh, uh, fitness goals around the value of face, right? How we come across to other people, right? I want six-pack abs by beach season so I can look incred-- whatever it, whatever it might look like. Um, I like butter chicken too much for, for goals like that.
- CWChris Williamson
Sound like a true Canadian.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. Yeah. Poutine, beaver tails, you know, hit all the Canadian staples. [chuckles] Poutine is actually deli- you know poutine, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CBChris Bailey
Okay. Okay, good. I, I'm happy that that is, uh, one of our, uh, strong cultural e-exports. [chuckles] But i-if you don't value face, that goal to look a certain way by a certain amount of time, that's not gonna be motivating for you. [clears throat] And you're gonna find that you have this, this headwind for the goal all throughout the process, where i-if you value security or benevolence, for example, having a goal to develop an incredible cardiovascular system for longevity and to be able to play with your grandkids late into o-late age, whatever it might look like, that's far more aligned to not only your values, but because your values make up who you are, there's that motivational alignment too, and so goals feels, uh, far more effortless in that way.
- CWChris Williamson
A quick aside, if you've noticed your energy isn't quite what it used to be, even though you eat well and stay active, there might be a reason for that. As we age, our mitochondria, which is the parts of our cells that produce energy, become weaker and make less energy, which is why I am such a huge fan of Timeline. They developed this pill right here that helps clear out damaged mitochondria so your cells can actually renew themselves. And this isn't just theory. In clinical trials, people saw mitochondrial renewal increase by more than forty percent in just sixteen weeks, along with improvements in their overall energy. Timeline is backed by over a decade of research, has more than fifty patents, and is the number one doctor-recommended mitochondrial supplement on the planet. I started taking it nearly two years ago because it was recommended to me by my doctor, and that is why I've used it for so long, since way before I knew who made the product, and that is why I partnered with them. Best of all, there's a thirty-day money-back guarantee, plus free shipping in the US, and they ship internationally. So right now you can get up to twenty percent off and that thirty-day money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to timeline.com/modernwisdom. That's timeline.com/modernwisdom.
- 14:39 – 18:29
Why You Should Constantly Edit Your Goals
- CWChris Williamson
Why is it the case then that intentions feel slippery? Because a lot of the time we have... We start off with an intention, and over time we end up doing things that aren't aligned with that intention. Now, sometimes that's because we've genuinely upgraded to something new. Our intention has become, has been supplanted by a different one. But other times it just feels like we're not acting intentionally. We kind of look back-
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... on our day-
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... and we ask ourselves, "What did I contribute to?" or, "What did I do?"
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you c- you, you don't really know. What do you think about in- the intentionality-
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... as a, an idea?
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah, so that's the interesting thing about intention. So intention, at the same time, is not only the key to accomplishing our goals, it often leads us to not accomplish our goals. [chuckles] So we have the, the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right? And it, it's because, uh... And I, I've really started to see goals as something different, uh, over the course of writing this book and chatting with the, the scientists, but also more so chatting with the Buddhist monks, um, i-in writing this book, where there's kind of a reframe, I think, that we have to go through with the goals that we set, where we see a goal as something that we are going to accomplish or that, you know, that, that we should compare our results to, right? But I, I've started to view goals, and I think this is a much better frame for them, as almost a prediction, right? Every goal is a prediction at where you believe your current and your planned actions will take you, right? And so, so often those predictions, those goals, which are really predictions in disguise, they turn into expectations for how things will go, which then turn into disappointment when we inevitably aren't, aren't predicting the future properly, [chuckles] which we're horrible at predicting the future, right? Uh, the... We, we don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow, let alone a, a, a week. We don't know if the hot water tank is gonna break in our house and flood our basement and upend all of our... We don't know if a kid is gonna, y-you know, get sick and have to stay home. We don't know how things are gonna end up. But when goals are just predictions in disguise, I, I really think we have to internalize that idea and edit our goals as we go on, right? Because we, we, we develop this attachment to how we believe things are gonna go. And so we set a goal, we develop an attachment to it, turns into an expectation, which turns into d- an inevitable disappointment usually. Uh, to take New Year's resolutions, for example, which, you know, are, have mostly fallen by the wayside by the time people are, will listen to this podcast or watch it. Um, you know, ninety-two percent of us fail at the New Year's resolutions we make because we set them with these beautiful hopes, right? We're like, uh, we're, we're like s- you know that, that classic trope of somebody who just arrived in New York City and they, you know, she, she hops off the bus and she's got this big smile on her face. [chuckles] And then, you know, cut to a year later when all the future that she didn't predict ends up happening and then-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
- CBChris Bailey
... you know, she's [chuckles] in her one-bedroom apartment looking all sad or something. Y- the same thing happens with our goals because they really are predictions in disguise. So holding them a bit more looselyAnd I think editing them and dropping them is also a really helpful strategy. Seeing them as not something that's fixed, but that we need to revise over time and then often drop, uh, when they're not working out is an incredible strategy, uh, for actually following through with them because we get closer to what we actually want.
- 18:29 – 20:35
How Do Default and Deliberate Intentions Differ?
- CWChris Williamson
There has to be a difference between default intentions and deliberate intentions though.
- CBChris Bailey
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and this was a, a, a surprising thing, uh, that really came up in the research where, you know, you think of an intention as being always deliberate, right? You know, we intend to do something, so we do it, um, or not [laughs] right, a lot of the time. But there really are these two types of intentions. So like I was saying a little bit ago, an intention is just a plan that we're gonna do something. And we set plans to do things both automatically, right, which are called habits, right? It, so you wake up in the morning and maybe your phone wakes you up, and so you, you tap, you swipe around between a, a few different apps, and you respond to s- that, that's habit energy, which is what monks call, you know, just living on our default intentions. But eventually, a time will come when you snap out of those default intentions that you have. When you're lying in bed, you know, you're not really feeling what you're doing, and so you think, "Okay, what do I really want here in this situation? What do I really want to get out of my day? What do I really need to accomplish?" So we all have these little moments of awakening where we go from being on autopilot mode, just doing things in response to whatever is happening around us, to tapping into something that is called our self-reflective capacity, which is our ability to look inward to where we really wish to be going, what we really want to be getting out of a situation. And interestingly, the, the, you know, so we go from living on default intention to these deliberate intentions.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
And we snap out of just this autopilot mode and really decide where to go. It's quite a beautiful, uh, uh, transition actually. And the, the more we do that, the more, you know, deliberately intentional we become, and the more we end up accomplishing of what we want, right? We need these moments
- 20:35 – 28:14
Where Do Default Intentions Come From?
- CBChris Bailey
of awakening.
- CWChris Williamson
Where do our defaults come from?
- CBChris Bailey
Oh, oh, I love these questions. Um, uh, uh, they come from a lot of different places. So I, I, I remember early on in the writing journey asking a monk, [laughs] "Where do intentions come from in general?"
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
And he listed a lot of different sources that actually mapped on top of the research from, uh, the social environments that we're a part of, right? We have these... th-this phenomenon of social contagion where, you know, there's the classic saying, we're the average of the five people we spend our most time with. Um, we have our desire to avoid pain and experience greater pleasure. We have, uh, you know, and so that leads us to, you know, walk up and say hi to somebody at a cafe or just connect with somebody or, or go on Tinder, what- [laughs] whatever it looks like, right? Um, but we have our biology too, which, you know, is probably connected a little bit with the Tinder example. But, you know, we're on a road trip, for example, and we feel the urge to go to the washroom, and so we set an intention to stop at the next, uh, you know, rest stop, for example. Um, but we also have... So those are the more default places that intentions tend to come from. But then we have this gradient where we transition from living on default, living on autopilot mode, just not really achieving the goals that we set, but, you know, doing fine. We're kind of m-maintaining the life that we have. We go from being on deliberate auto... or default autopilot mode to being more deliberate about what we do. So one of those places that intentions come from are the lessons we've learned, right? So you listen to a, a-an incredible book, a, a great podcast. You read a book. You listen to Chris or the other Chris, me, [laughs] you know, sharing ideas or whatever it might look like. You learn something, and what that does is it puts a learning loop in your mind so that when you encounter, uh, uh, the same situation in the future, you'll respond with a different intention from the one that you had originally. Um, and the deepest ones come from a place beyond that, right? I think o-one of the times I was on in the past, you know, we were chatting about scatter focus, this mind-wandering mode where we just let our mind roam free, and we find that it wanders to the future a remarkable amount of time. Uh, 48% of the time that our mind is wandering, it's thinking about the future. So, you know, we're taking a shower, for example, or we're going for a run, we're going for a walk, and we're listening to classical music or something and with a notepad in our pocket, and we always unearth ideas. We always unearth plans, and we always tap into this, uh, intentional, uh, capacity that's in our mind to set different intentions from the ones that we'd be... would, would be doing on default. So it, it, it looks very interesting in practice where, you know, often becoming more intentional to break out of the mold, it looks like more wandering sometimes.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
Because that gives us a different way to go than the one that we would be inclined to do by default.
- CWChris Williamson
This episode is brought to you by Gymshark. You want to look and feel good when you're in the gym, and Gymshark makes the best men's and girls' gym wear on the planet. Let's face it, the more that you like your gym kit, the more likely you are to train. Their hybrid training shorts for men are the best men's shorts on the planet. Their crest hoodie and the light gray marl is what I fly in every single time I'm on a plane. The geo seamless T-shirt is a staple in the gym for me. Basically, everything they make, it's unbelievably well-fitted, high quality, it's cheap. You get 30 days of free returns, global shipping, and a 10% discount sitewide if you go to the link in the description below or head to gym.sh/modernwisdom and use the code MODERNWISDOM10 at checkout. That's gym.sh/modernwisdom.and Modern Wisdom 10 at checkout. Yeah, it's interesting the difference between giving yourself enough room so that you can actually allow ideas to come to the surface. You can't white-knuckle creativity to the line that I love. Um, so it's, it sort of needs to emerge spontaneously. But also, that gets perilously close to not taking the wheel, which is just living on default intentions and not really having that much structure and not really choosing the direction that you're going in or taking agency. Life happens to you, you don't happen to life. And yeah, it, th-this, uh, I think a lot of people struggle with the tension between structure and sort of serendipity might be a good way to, to put it at from a, a cognitive standpoint.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. And it, it's very interesting the, the little gaps in our day as well, where th-that, that's sometimes where our, our greatest intentions come from. You know, it's in these little moments between things. So, you know, if, if we're having a conversation, if w- right after this conversation we pick up our phone or something, uh, you know, intentions might never occur to us that would be incredibly valuable to us both. I-if you're walking to a meeting or something, right? You're at your office or something, you're walking to a different office i-in your building, and on the way there, you're on your phone. Intentions aren't going to occur to you because you don't tap into this wandering mode. So th-there really are these two levels of wandering where we have the little gaps in between the things that we do, right? Especially before and after we do something. That-that's sometimes the most fruitful time to wander, because beforehand, you set an intention because you're thinking about the future, and the, the impending thing is so front of mind that you're more likely to wander f-to it for about, you know, th-than about half the time. It's probably closer to 75, 80% of the time that you'll be thinking about the future, just automatically setting intentions. Um, and after too, right? It, it's the learning loop where you can set different intentions or, uh, think of action items from a meeting or, you know, something as simple as that. Or, you know, you have a meaningful conversation, so a-a-a at a coffee shop with a good friend or something, and so you can reflect on it on the walk back home instead of just filling your attention to the brim or distracting yourself. You could actually internalize something that leads you to set different intentions later on. And so, so the default intentions that we have, you know, a lot of them are habits. But we need some reinforcement mechanism almost so that the more deliberate things we do can change our defaults, i-if that makes sense.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it does. I think, uh, I had a... I, I got a bit of stick for suggesting that New Year's resolutions are important, uh, on a podcast a couple of months ago. And I'm not saying that there's anything special particularly about January 1st, but the point that I did think was kind of interesting is that people are already obsessing over the future and ruminating about the past. They're just doing it in an unstructured way.
- CBChris Bailey
[chuckles] Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? So it's just invading your life.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It careens into consciousness. You don't know where it came from, you don't know how long it's gonna linger, you can't get rid of it.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And then it leaves, and you go, "Well, I, I guess that was kind of like me planning and reflecting, except for the fact that it felt bad. I didn't mean it to happen. I was supposed to be doing something else, and it wasn't in any way productive or contributing to my life." Well, okay, why don't we then every so often just take a little bit of time,
- 28:14 – 32:53
Are “Realistic” Goals Holding You Back?
- CWChris Williamson
take a downbeat? But speaking of that, you know-
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... New Year's resolution's kind of one of the go-to garden variety productivity tools.
- CBChris Bailey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
SMART goals are another one.
- CBChris Bailey
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And you seem to take a, a bit of issue with SMART goals, something that every business undergrad-
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... from all time have become familiar with. What's your issue with SMART goals?
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. Yeah, seriously. I, I, I actually have never had an issue with them, um, until I encountered the research on them. So I, I, I personally thought SMART goals would be a shoo-in for this book, and 'cause I've written about them in the past. They sound incredible, right? These goals that are specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, and time-bound, SMART, right? It sounds like it should work, right? [chuckles] You know, they're, they're smart. Why would you set dumb goals or something?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
Um, but th-then you look at the research on them where, uh, and if you don't believe me, you know, a-a-and I, I hope to actually stir up a bit of controversy with this, but if you-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, I can't, I can't wait for the productivity community to be up in arms. They'll be using the fucking Alfred extensions and their Notion-
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... templates to send you-
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... big, long arguments about why SMART goals are actually underrated, not overrated.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. They're, they're gonna, they're gonna h-have their keyboard maestro, uh, scripts automatically interact with Claude Cowork to do a deep research into just what's wrong with me or something. I don't know. [chuckles] But it, it's, it's so, it, it's so interesting 'cause I thought they'd be a shoo-in for the book, right? Aren't specific goals i-incredible? Um, aren't, you know, don't we want our goals to be attainable? That sort of thing. But the... when you look at the research, and if you don't believe me, go to Google Scholar and type in "SMART goals." You'll see what comes up. You, you might be surpri- as surprised as I was. Um, it turns out realistic goals often aren't good enough, right? We're limiting our potential when we make a goal merely realistic, um, because when we make a goal challenging, the research shows we actually achieve more than we would otherwise by simply making it kind of a low-hanging bar or something that we can just step over.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
And there's also redundancy in the criteria, right? So aren't specific, aren't measurable goals also specific, for example? Um, and, and what... I, I looked in the, into the research on where did this actually come from, and it came from... The SMART goals originated as an article in a management review. Uh, it wasn't an academic-journal. It was just kind of an article somebody wrote on how to better manage your employees, and it didn't stand for what [chuckles] the current acronym does today. And so it's kind of like the, you know, the 10,000, uh, step rule or the 10,000-hour rule, these nice kind of things that sound like they should work. And so there's a, a, a virality that's associated with it that, you know, kind of gets morphed in a, a cultural game of telephone, uh, ever since they were introduced. And so I w- this was actually quite a big surprise for me because these sound so good. And I remember, you know, um, encountering this research, writing about it in the book. Um, I, I actually had a little bit of a chapter drafted about SMART goals and so I th- but I thought, "Okay, I need some research backing here." You know, did, did a deep dive into the research and found that there's, y-you know, a lot of researchers say that there's even research waste that occurs around SMART goals because it seems like they make sense to study. So many businesses do them. I can't wait to hit the, the speaking circuit for this book and, and t-tell every business-
- CWChris Williamson
Ruin everyone
- CBChris Bailey
... yeah, exactly. Really just [chuckles] you know, cause controversy within all these companies and stuff. [chuckles] Productivity controversies-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- CBChris Bailey
... are probably the lowest stakes and least important controversy you can ever imagine. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
I don't know. There's some political ones at the moment that seem equally stupid, but yeah. You're right.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. Yeah. There's stupid controversy and enough of it to go around at pro- at, at any given time in this kinda outraged [chuckles] driven algorithmic world that we're in. But yeah, SMART goals, maybe we should have something because then we could set actually better goals that are rooted in not only our values, right? We can edit our goals over time so that they're better fit for our values. We can actually overcome a lot of the things that are getting in the way of our goals too, like a lack of alignment with the social environments we're a part of, like procrastination, which is another, uh, huge, huge, uh, inhibitor to just how much we're able to accomplish in, in our day, in our life.
- 32:53 – 35:54
Why Procrastination is So Damaging to Your Goals
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Yeah, let's talk about, let's talk about procrastination. Like I have to assume i- w- procrastination gets in the way for lots of people, that there's a thing, they understand their intention. It hasn't got slippery. It s- hasn't dropped out of their mind, and for some reason, the thing that they need to do in order to move themselves toward achieving the intention, th- for some reason, they can't th-th-th-they can't get started, or they keep on stopping or something. So what did you learn, procrastination, big picture?
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. So big picture, very big picture. There are, for any goal, we have this function of desire, um, where we either desire doing it, which is usually aligned with our values actually. So the more aligned something is with what we value, that's our motivational nature, our unique motivational nature, I should say. Um, and so that's the desire component, the values component. But then there's the aversion component where to get the, how much you actually care about something or wanna do something, you have to subtract how much aversion you have to doing it from the amount of desire, and sometimes we end up in the negative. Uh, and so there's-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- CBChris Bailey
... a lot of goals that we don't wanna follow through with. There's the negative amount of energy around that goal, and so we punt it down the street for a later day. It's called procrastination. S-uh, but the, the interesting thing about procrastination is it's a purely visceral and emotional reaction to something that we don't wanna do. There's very little logic embedded within it whatsoever. So, uh, you know, the, i-it turns out that there are certain triggers that a task can have that lead us to a greater amount of aversion, which leads to procrastination. So those are whether something is boring. More boring something is, the less we wanna do it. Uh, frustration is another one, so the process of doing something is very frustrating. Unpleasantness, [chuckles] right? It's just something that's just, uh, not pleasant to do. When something's far away in the future, right? The further away something is, the less we desire to do it because we can justify to ourselves. We, we don't feel, you know, the, the i-impending deadline of having to do it. Uh, when something is unstructured as well, that's another trigger of-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Mm-hmm
- CBChris Bailey
... procrastination. And, and the interesting thing about that i-is, that one kind of frustrates me because, you know, you can structure things. [chuckles] You know, if, if you feel aversion for that reason, you know, if you don't wanna go to the gym because you have no workout plan or something, um, that, that's very solvable, right? The other ones are kind of uglier. They're messier. Uh, so when something's-
- CWChris Williamson
Take me through the list from the top again.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. So boring, frustrating, unpleasant, far away in the future, unstructured, and the final one is meaningless. So it's not aligned with our values, which we've, which we've covered.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah.
- 35:54 – 45:12
The Easiest Ways to Beat Procrastination
- CWChris Williamson
What are the easiest solutions for people?
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
W-uh, th-there's a... Did some of those feel a little redundant, like boring-
- CBChris Bailey
Hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... frustrating?
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, meaningless. Uh, they, they, th-they feel... And I'm aware we're playing semantic games here, but they seem a little similar. What's the eighty/twenty?
- CBChris Bailey
Fair. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the eighty/twenty of people overcoming procrastination?
- CBChris Bailey
Hmm. Is something unstructured? Structure it. [chuckles] You know, that, that's the lowest hanging fruit for, for, for procrastination. A-and usually you'll find when you cross-reference... And you're right. There, there is overlap. Y-you know, there is some debate in the research on whether these are distinct characteristics of tasks. Um, but generally, you know, you can kind ofUh, be- because you'll find that when something's aversive, it sets off multiple ones, right? You don't wanna do your taxes because they're boring, they're unstructured, they're frustrating, they're unpleasant. Um, a- and so you procrastinate, and maybe they're, they're, you know, you kick them down the street for a later day. But structuring things is s- some of the lowest hanging fruit you can do for so... So how could you add structure to doing your taxes? Can you just hire somebody to do it, right? Delegating something is the easiest way to overcoming procrastination on it when it's something that's, uh, delegatable. Uh, so add structure and go back to goal editing, right? If you have a goal that's really aversive for you, but it's still on your list and you really see the tangible payoff of having done it, right? Not of doing it or not the enjoyment of doing it, but the tangible payoff of having done it. Edit the goal so it's more in line with your values, right? Turn the goal from that six-pack abs by beach season face goal into that goal of, you know, having a feeling secure in your body, um, that your heart isn't going to attack you in retirement or something, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
Connect with the deeper meaning behind it-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CBChris Bailey
-and connect with the, you know, your top two values, for example. Um, but also, you know, the-- make it... Do what you can to make it an actual enjoyable process for you. And this goes back to the unstructured nature of a goal, um, where-
- CWChris Williamson
But also unpleasant, presumably as well.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah, also unpleasant, also boring, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CBChris Bailey
Um, frustrating, you know, a, a few of these different things at once. Can you do it over, I don't know, a fancy latte? Can you do, uh, uh, can you, you know, have an, a, a resistance list? This is one of my favorite productivity strategies where, you know, make a list of everything you're resisting doing, and then a set of rewards that you can treat yourself when you do those things, right? Um, maybe assign a number of points that you can redeem for those rewards or something. I call them habit points in the book. So, you know, there, there are ways of making the process more enjoyable, making a game o- out of something that you don't wanna be doing. Um, so upping that enjoyment level however you pos- having a, you know, glass of wine or whatever that colorful drink is that you're having wh- while you're... And saving it for that period, period of time. Uh, habit stacking, right? Where you invest in the habits that you are kind of like guilty pleasures almost, uh, o- on some level. Um, i- investing in those when you do the aversive things. But there's so many different, um, you know, overcoming the resistance level we have to things, um, th- th- that, that we can do.
- CWChris Williamson
Before we continue, I am a massive fan of reducing your alcohol intake, but historically, non-alcoholic brews taste like ass. You don't need to be doing some big reset. Maybe you just want to crack a cold one without feeling like garbage the next morning, which is why I am such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co. They've got 50 types of NAs, including IPAs, goldens, and even limited releases like a cocktail inspired Paloma and Moscow Mule. And here's the thing, you can drink them anytime, late nights, early mornings, watching sports, playing sports. Doesn't matter. No hangover, no compromise, and that is why I partnered with them. You can find Athletic Brewing Co.'s best-selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you, or best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors shipped right to your door. Right now, you can get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom. That's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom. What about the... I get... I'm thinking about stuff that's just going to be tough, that you're just sort of facing and there's not really anything. The sacrifice reward dynamic, there's no way around this, and it's just going to suck. I guess you could try and stack listening to good music that you enjoy at the same time. You could go to the coffee shop to try and make it a little bit easier. Uh, I'm just wondering how people c- how many times does someone... Right, I've got my favorite song on, I've gone to my favorite coffee shop, my latte, and fuck, I opened Instagram. Shit.
- CBChris Bailey
[chuckles] Whoops. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. And so, so this comes down to o- often giving yourself no choice but to do something. So-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
Um, you know, Freedom is one of my favorite apps on the computer for this reason, and I'm not affiliated. M- much like you and that drink-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
You know, this pod- podcast should be sponsored by, what's the name of it again?
- CWChris Williamson
Bloom Pop.
- CBChris Bailey
Bloom Pop. Um, and Freedom. Uh, [chuckles] Free- Freedom is one of my favorite apps. So are you, are you familiar with it? Do you use it?
- CWChris Williamson
I use Cold Turkey, which I think-
- CBChris Bailey
Oh, yeah. Yeah
- 45:12 – 48:55
Are Ugly Goals Worth Working Towards?
- CWChris Williamson
What about, what about the difference between ugly goals and attractive goals? Because it... There, there's some... Again, I, I'm trying to think about as much objection handling as possible. There are some things that are just funner goals than others. There are some goals that are uglier and some goals that are more attractive.
- CBChris Bailey
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, it's just every goal is a bit different so on, on that fundamental level. And so, you know, often you'll edit a goal, and you'll get it to as good, in good a shape as you possibly can, and it's still f-ugly. It's still fugly in a, in a lot of cases. And so you, you got no choice at that point to, to decide i-is this goal worth pursuing? And, you know, so-sometimes the fact that you have tried to edit a goal, um, extensively and you still find it ugly, you know, sometimes that's a sign that it could be worth dropping when it's just fundamentally not aligned to who you are and what you care about. But then you have the goals on your list that's like, you know, lower my cholesterol or something, which pr-probably few people wanna do, but if your cholesterol is high, you should probably do it. And so then you have the goals that you really ought to be achieving. And so the litmus test is, you know, i-is thinking, "Okay, w-will I be happy that I did this thing, and what tangible difference will it make to, to my life?" Because it... And I forget who said it, but somebody said, you know, for our days, uh, to, to... for, for, uh, our, our days to be different, our life needs to be different. I think, you know, you can kind of transpose those. For our life to be different, our days need to be different.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bailey
Uh, what, what do your goals look like on a tangible daily basis? Uh, because another trap we fall into a lot of times, uh, I call them sepia tone goals, where, you know, we have these beautiful, uh, fantasies of, you know, just exactly how different our life will be after we integrate a change into our life. The, the one that comes up for me is waking up at 5:30 every morning. So I love this idea of being an early riser, you know? And I, I've struggled, and I've integrated this goal into my life several times actually, where, you know, I'll, I'll wake up at 5:30. I'll do all these, you know, things that feel like they should be good in my head. I'll, I'll meditate like I usually do when I wake up. I'll, uh, go to the gym. I'll read the paper. I st- I, I, I was gonna say still get the physical paper, but I'm not that old. Um, [laughs] I, I, I read the physical paper, though, that arrives every morning. You know, all these holy things with the morning. But then I realize that I absolutely hate the ritual, right? I have to go to bed in order to get a good enough sleep when people wanna hang out, when good hockey games are on, when, when shit's actually happening that's interesting in my life. Um, a-and so there's this idea of a change sometimes that is sepia toned that leads to these tangible changes that we don't really actually want. Um, and by the way, for waking up early if you're a, a night owl like I am, that actual research on it, I believe by Till Roennigberg, um, is, has found that there's no difference in somebody's socioeconomic standing based on their wake-up time. So people who wake up at 8:00 a.m. are just as successful as people who wake up at 5:00 a.m. But it's how deliberate, how intentional we are with our time, uh, that makes the biggest difference. You know, still wake up at, you know, 7:30, 8:00, read the paper, meditate. Just everything is just shifted over. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think...
- 48:55 – 54:13
Are Your Goals Actually Yours… Or Someone Else’s?
- CWChris Williamson
How many goals do you think people have that are just kind of socially acceptable cosplays of ambition?I think so many people love the idea of saying that I have this goal. B- and maybe the reason that lots of people aren't achieving their goals and their intentions is that if they were to look a little bit more closely, they'd realize that they weren't theirs. They're doing it as this sort of cool, trendy T-shirt that they can wear, that when other people ask them what their goals are, they can say, "Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm doing, uh, a keto diet," or, "I'm doing meat and fruit at the moment," or, "I'm, I'm microdosing." Or, "I, I, you know, I'm do- I'm..." But that's not actually what they want. It's what they want other people to hear them saying that they want.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. Yeah. I'm microdosing meat and fruit. You know what? [chuckles] Whatever it is. Th-that's such a big part of it. And so, you know, one tactic that I'm a big advocate for is keeping a list of your goals. You know, a-and I divide mine based on context. Um, so personal and work and inside I list the goals under the values that they're a part of. And wh-when I started doing this, I did realize that there were a lot of goals on the list, like waking up early is one of them, where I, I feel... It, it's, it's still interesting, you know, the, the, the guilt that we experience when we don't follow through with, um, the expectations that other people have of us, l-like waking up early. Right, so I, I know all the research, and I know what works for me. I know what my biological prime time is, which is when we're wired to perform. I know all these things. I know I have a better life. I enjoy life more. I do better work. I create better things when I wake up later. But still, I feel guilty when I roll out of bed at a, a later hour than, you know, than whatever I, uh, deem justifiable in my head. And so there, there is this, you know... I, I love, I love the cosplay [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
- CBChris Bailey
... of, uh, uh, phraseology that, that you use. And it, it, it's interesting because I, I feel our relationship is different depending on our values in that context. Where, you know, conformity is one of the fundamental human values. Uh, some people do value conformity. And so if that's you, which is probably unlikely if you're listening to this podcast, but I was hanging out with, with a couple people last night who's-- They identified that as one of their highest values, which I, I found interesting. Um, uh, but if that's a high value for you, and there's a goal that other people expect you to achieve, what the research shows is you will actually find it meaningful to achieve that thing because you're living within the expectations that other people have of you. But if you don't have that value, which it's low for me, it's probably low for you, too, knowing, knowing you to some extent, [chuckles] you're not gonna find much meaning in... You know, for me, my value of self-direction is so highest, the highest by a wide, wide margin, and my value of conformity is so low that if I feel I have to do something, that'll make me not wanna do it. It'll make me wanna rebel against the expectations other, other people have of me. But there still is that fundamental guilt, so it really is a... You know. So, so it's kind of like when you ask somebody how, you know, "How's work for you?" And they say, "Oh, I'm so busy," you know, "I have so much going on." Uh, where the busyness, you know, people overestimate how long they work for, first of all. But second of all, they l- wear that busyness as almost a badge of honor, o-of, you know, "Oh, the, the, the world needs me so much," you know? A-and, uh, "I'm so wanted by the world, so needed by the world, and be- so I'm so busy." Uh, we have kind of a similar status projection with our goals sometimes. But, you know, tapping into the-- Th-that's what makes tapping into that self-reflective capacity just so much more important. If we never tap into our self-reflective capacity, we'll never truly get what we want.
- CWChris Williamson
This episode is brought to you by Whoop. I have been wearing Whoop for over five years now, way before they were a partner on the show. I've actually tracked over sixteen hundred days of my life with it, according to the app, which is insane. And it's the only wearable I've ever stuck with because it tracks everything that matters: sleep, workouts, recovery, breathing, heart rate, even your steps. And the new 5.0 is the best version. You get all the benefits that make Whoop indispensable. Seven percent smaller, but now it's also got a fourteen-day battery life and has Health Span to track your habits, how they affect your pace of aging. It's got hormonal insights for ladies. I'm a huge, huge fan of Whoop. That's why it's the only wearable that I've ever stuck with. And best of all, you can join for free. Pay nothing for the brand-new Whoop 5.0 strap, plus you get your first month for free, and there's a thirty-day money-back guarantee. So you can buy it for free, try it for free. If you do not like it after twenty-nine days, they just give you your money back. Right now, you can get the brand-new Whoop 5.0 and that thirty-day trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. That's join.whoop.com/modernwisdom.
- 54:13 – 57:34
How to Deepen Your Goals
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I suppose... Look, social pressure is a, a hell of a improver. It's a hell of a assistant-
- CBChris Bailey
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... when we want to try and get something done. It's why you train harder when you're in a class than when you're on your own, typically. A- all right, I guess, how can people make their goals and intentions feel deeper? There's certainly some that resonate with us a lot, and then there's others that don't so much, but we wish we-- that they did. Is there something we can do to make goals sort of feel deeper?
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. So the values component is one, and that's a big one. Um, a-and there is, you know, you're touching on the social environments that we're a part of. There, there are kind of a lot of productivity e-e-extremists out there, I, I call them, you know. Uh, people who, you know, they'll say, "Never surround yourself withPeople who don't support you in your goals. But life is just more complex than that. You know, we have good friends that have bad habits. You know, speaking personally, when, when I'm around family, a, a lot of their-- I'm not gonna call anyone out [laughs] but a lot of their habits aren't conducive to, you know, the goals that I have. But still, I, I'd be cold and, and heartless to, to, to weed them out of my life for so, you know, some... But, but, but there are-- is kinda s- positive social contagion that I think we can introduce for a lot of our goals. Where if you have a big new goal, a big new habit that you're trying to integrate into your life, you could really reflect, "Okay, how can I actually double down on how much contagion I'm experiencing for, for this goal?" And so there is that level of deliberateness that we can layer on top of whatever that goal is. Where it's like can I join a running group? You know, if, if my intention is to, to, you know, get a certain workout time, time or a certain run time. I- i- if you're joining a knitting group, right? I, I, I used to be a bigger knitter than I am right now, and I wanted to get more into it 'cause it's a great way to scatter your, uh, your attention.
- CWChris Williamson
Knitting group?
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah, yeah. And so it's all like-
- CWChris Williamson
Like a meetup for people to knit.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. Yeah. And there's a knitting store in the city that I used to live in. Um, I'm not a good knitter, you know, by any stretch, but I found it a great way [chuckles] I love the smirk that you have right now. Um, [laughs] it's like you're misreading-
- CWChris Williamson
I'm, I, look, I'm blown away by the fact that there's people getting together, like CrossFit on an evening-
- CBChris Bailey
Oh, yeah. Cross knit. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Cross knit. Yeah, yeah. That'd be good.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. Well, I'm no good. Like I can make dish cloths and, and stuff. But, um, but when I was a part of the knitting group in, in the city that I used to live in, man, I-- like my level of improvement with that habit was a, a different curve than it is right now. If anything, it's, uh, I'm kind of letting the habit die, right? There was a knitting store in the city that I used to live in, which, which hosted this kinda meetup. All, you know, older women. The, some of the, like, my favorite people [laughs] i- in the world, uh, were, were in that group. Um, and, a-a-and so, you know, having that social contagion can s- re- can really support you in the habits that you wanna form. Um, that's one way to make it deeper. N-nothing feels deeper, um, i-in our life than, uh, human-to-human connection.
- 57:34 – 1:04:50
Designing Intentions That Actually Stick
- CWChris Williamson
All right. Taking all of this together, what's the s- what's the structure? Someone is bought into the fact that intentions are important. They realize that procrastination's there. They've got goals. They've got actions. They've got daily, daily purp- all the rest of the stuff. What's the best way to put this into a format to follow? How should people design better intentions?
- CBChris Bailey
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So i-it's interest... So-something that I really believe now is becoming more intentional is a skill that we can get better at over time. So, you know, i-if you look at your level of follow-through, um, [chuckles] the, the, the book was originally called Follow Through, but it has a weird, weird connotations in the UK that I was not aware of, uh, bef- [laughs] y-you're probably familiar with them, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Follow Through.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
- CBChris Bailey
Yes. People can go on Urban Dictionary in their own time. But i-if you're looking [laughs] to increase your level of follow-through with your goals-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- CBChris Bailey
... I should say. [laughs] It'll make sense when you look it up. Um, that was, like, totally out of left field for me, having to rename the book, uh, because it's such a good, it was such a good encapsulation.
- CWChris Williamson
It was originally called Follow Through?
- CBChris Bailey
Yes, it was. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That would've been... Well, no, you only need to rewa- rename it in the U- in the UK. It would've been fine in the US.
- CBChris Bailey
Well, yeah, in the US, it would've been fine. The UK publisher really ra- a-and marketing is so awkward when you have differently named books.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CBChris Bailey
I'm fortunate that only my subtitles have been different, uh, a-across geographies. But, but realize that increasing your level of follow-through is really a skill that you can get better at over time. So maybe you set goals, you set intentions right now, and maybe for a, a given goal, you follow through with it, let's say the default, right? Eight percent of the time, we follow through with our New Year's resolutions. Maybe when you resolve to do something big, you follow through with it eight percent of the time. But you can build this skill of intentionality, and you can build these practices of intentionality. For, you know, there's the obligatory ugly stuff, lowering your cholesterol. You can deploy the procrastination habits on those. So, uh, just looking to get started on something, one of my favorite, uh, tactics out there is shrinking your resistance level to doing the thing. So i-if you're writing a book, for example, and you have freedom um, or something, cold, cold turkey on, but you're still resisting it, you can shrink how long you do it for until you overcome that resistance, right? It adds structure. It makes it less boring, less frustrating, all that stuff. So you might think, "Okay, do I wanna write for an hour? No way in hell. What about forty-five minutes? No. What about thirty? Mm-mm. What about t- yeah, twenty? I, I, I could write for twenty." A-a-and, and so you overcome that resistance by shrinking how long you do something for, being kinder to yourself in the process. So, you know, so the procrastination for the obligatory ugly things, um, the procrastination tactics are very helpful for those. But usually, there's more latitude in editing our goals than we believe, right? So maybe there's some project that you don't wanna do. O-one, one, you know, s- one example, right? Maybe you have to write some employee handbook or something. And so, you know, on your to-do list, it's write employee handbook, or maybe you're making the list of goals as write employee handbook. And, and that's aversive, right? It, it feels like something you have to do, which fits with that value of conformity. But maybe you edit it. Maybe your biggest value is benevolence, soHelping other people. Maybe it's self-direction, so going your own way. And so a better goal, a better frame for the goal might be, you know, mentor new employees and get creative with the handbook project. So you might actually perform the same set of actions under each goal, but one feels like something you have to do that isn't aligned with what you value. Uh, the, the other feels like something that is actually connected with, with, w-with what truly motivates you on that deep, fundamental human level. So know your top values as well. So, you know, we mentioned the 12 of them earlier in the podcast. Won't go through them again. We've already talked about them. But what top two are the strongest for you, and how can you align more of your goals to them, right? The, the easiest way to tell if something, uh, uh, if a priority, if a goal is aligned with your deepest values is you've done it already, right? Because the best, most aligned goals, they feel effortless. They feel like just a, a, an extension of who we are. So okay, that covers [chuckles] procrastination. Let's give it a little system for people. That, that covers procrastination on the ugly stuff, editing the stuff that can be framed differently, increasing your desire, right? Modifying your social environments. But a big one where you see and you accommodate the different layers o-of intention in your life i-i-is setting intentions across multiple timeframes at once. Uh, one of my favorite rules for this is the rule of three. But I, I'm trying to remember. On one of the past times we were chat-- Did I mention the rule of three?
- CWChris Williamson
Maybe. Give us it again.
- CBChris Bailey
Okay. So a-all this is, is, you know, at the start of every day, I, I like to start with the goal on the, on a daily basis 'cause then you see kind of where the rubber meets the road, um, and you can begin to form different intentions. So at the start of the day, you fast-forward to the end of the day in your head and you ask yourself, "What are the three main things I will want to have accomplished by the day's end?" That's it. What are the three main things I'll want to have accomplished by the day's end? And because you can only pick three, it forces you to, um, to prioritize what's on your plate. You have to choose three things that are important and everything else that isn't. Uh, but if you find the rule works every day, you might think, "Okay, what are three things that I want to accomplish this week?" Right? Uh, maybe in a work context and a personal context. So that when you set the daily intentions, you can look to the weekly ones and think, "Okay, how can these contribute to the broader, uh, plans that I have?" So in this way, your daily intentions beginning, begin feeding into your plans. And so when you set your weekly intentions, you can look to your goal list, right? You can s- think, "How much of this stuff do I want to bite off today?" And so you begin to develop the different layers of intention that you have in your life. Your daily intentions fit with your, um, weekly intentions, which fit with your plans, your goals, which can fit with your values as you edit them more over time. So this is kind of the skill, uh, that we can develop in setting better intentions over the longer arc of time and upping our level of follow-through, the goal kind, as well as our level of accomplishment, if that's something that you value.
- 1:04:50 – 1:08:30
The Biggest Thing You’re Probably Ignoring
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think... I know the book's new.
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
W-what do you think is something that people are overlooking from this big thesis that you've put together? You know, you've got the, the, the obvious things that people are going to zero in on, probably the insights around procrastination and ways to reframe intentions and stuff like that. But is there something that, so a, a less sexy but powerful, uh, element that you think most people are overlooking?
- CBChris Bailey
Yeah. My... I'll, I'll share my personal favorite. Uh, it is that our values are constructed out of our default intentions. So our default intentions, they form, uh, a, a shape. And so y-y-y-you can look at... A-and the shape is the values that we have. So you can look at all the things you do by default, and there's always an underlying motivation behind the things that you do by default, right? You have a default habit of meditating because that allows you to get closer to what you want with self-direction, or, you know, s- you feel more secure in your mind. You feel calmer. Um, you have habits to, you know, call friends, and that might connect with different values of benevolence and, and serving others. Um, but even, even the simple things, right? O-overeating or something might fit with that biological need for security and not starving, you know? So from the deeply, deeply ingrained to the default intentions that we form. So th-these form the framework of our values. And this might be too in the weeds for an answer to this question that's interesting, but I think this is very underrated, where our values are made out of the things that we do by default. And i-it's for this idea that I think our, our default intentions aren't, you know... Th-they're not just something to get frustrated by. You know, "Oh, why do I overeat?" Or, "Why, why do I do this? Why do I do that?" Th-there's something o-on, on, uh, many levels to admire, right? We, we can observe ourselves acting, uh, through pure habit energy and, you know, playing with our kids on habit. Yeah. W-whatever it might look like. And I, I think our default habits, you know, sometimes they're worth getting frustrated by and setting a different intention after something we've learned maybe, or maybe after tapping into that self-reflective capacity.But I, I think other times they're worth marveling at, right? We have all of these, uh, frankly, in my opinion, beautiful default intentions that I, I think make us human, right? Because we're not only ingrained in a certain way to, to, um, to a-act in a certain way, but we also, you know... W-we can also admire the, the person that not only nature has formed, but, but, but also that we have formed through the decisions that we've made in the past, and that those deliberate intentions that we can layer on top of the defaults of our life, that's only a, a... That, that, that's, that's this wonderful way that we can go in a different direction a-and really guide ourselves a-and our, our lives to go in a different way. And goals are a big part of that, but values are a big part of that, priorities, plans, and daily intentions. So I, I, I just think marveling at our defaults is, um, a-an underrated idea from the book.
- 1:08:30 – 1:09:18
Where to Find Chris
- CWChris Williamson
Heck yeah. Chris Bailey, ladies and gentlemen. Where should people go to check out everything that you got going on?
- CBChris Bailey
Oh. Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, thank you for having me on, on the pod again. Intentional: How to Finish What You Start is the name of the book. If you feel inclined to check it out, there's an audiobook too, if that's your style. Um, chrisbailey.com, that's where my newsletter is and, and all the good stuff that you can find in the... I don't know what you wanna call it, the Chris Baileyverse, whatever. [laughs] Yeah, thanks for having me on again.
- CWChris Williamson
I got you, man. I appreciate you. I like your work. Keep on doing it.
- CBChris Bailey
Oh, thanks, buddy. Great to chat with you always.
- CWChris Williamson
[outro jingle] Congratulations, you made it to the end of an episode. Your brain has not been completely destroyed by the internet just yet. Here's another one that you should watch. Come on
Episode duration: 1:09:18
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode Q-wOYyjD0q8
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome