You Are Not A Victim - Tom Otton | Modern Wisdom Podcast 252

1. 0:00 – 0:45

   Intro

   1. TOTom Otton0:00

      Everybody experiences that negative self-talk. It doesn't matter who you are, whether you're David Goggins. This is where a lot of people get it wrong. A lot of people think, "That person, whoever it might be, is ... must be made of something else because there's no way that they have the same narrative internally as I, as I do." And it's the same narrative. Sometime I'm on a, a 10 or 15K run and sometimes you just feel like (censored) and you want to stop. It's exactly the same narrative. I know this is hard to understand, but it's exactly the same narrative-

   2. CWChris Williamson0:24

      (laughs)

   3. TOTom Otton0:24

      ... as when you're there at, at, at, at 120 kilometers into a race. It's, "I want to stop. These are the reasons why. That all makes sense. It's okay." All of these things. So all of that will happen. And, and, you know, the listeners can experience that on a 10K run or, or it could be 120K, but it's just the same narrative. I'm a completely different person than what I was when

2. 0:45 – 5:58

   What has changed

   1. TOTom Otton0:45

      I started the whole ultra conversation. I'm completely different human, I look at things differently, I, I approach things differently, I value things differently.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:52

      Interesting.

   3. TOTom Otton0:52

      Like everything, everything changed.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:54

      Well, that's a good place to start.

   5. TOTom Otton0:56

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson0:56

      So what has changed? You have done multiple ultra events. What like, and what's, what's the impact been on you?

   7. TOTom Otton1:03

      In terms of races, um, the first, uh, the first b- the first big one for me actually went re- really badly. Um, so myself and Marcus flew across to Wales and we did a 80 kilometer, uh, run across the Brecon Beacons. First time I'd done anything like that. Um, it was a little bit last minute in terms of deciding that looks like fun, let's have a crack. Training was terrible for it, in terms of when I look back now. Um, and body kind of fell to pieces, head fell to pieces. And it was, it was one of those situations we've all been through, like, y- you have to kind of hit the bottom before you can start to realize w- wh- where you want to go. And you look back on that later in life and you realize that's exactly what needed to happen for me to then sort of evolve from there. So that, that didn't go well. Um, like I said-

   8. CWChris Williamson1:44

      What's not well?

   9. TOTom Otton1:45

      Oh, I just, um, just body broke down, which is fine. I mean, that happens if you haven't trained for something then obviously you can't expect to, to get through it very well. Finished it, but like weak head, complaining, uh, just moaning about shit, "I'm f- I'm done with this." Just like, as I suppose you'd expect somebody that hasn't worked on any form of mental strength or, or, or tried to sort of build that side of themselves up. You j- you, you fall to pieces when you get into an environment like that, when you're however many hours we were in. So that was a first experience and it haunted me, it really stuck in my head.

   10. CWChris Williamson2:17

       I was gonna say, a lot of people might have just turned back after that.

   11. TOTom Otton2:20

       Yeah. Well, to be honest, it was one of those situations where I knew... I know myself well enough to know that that was going to sit with me for a long time. And it sat with me for a while, and I realized that, um, I had to do something bigger, and I had to do something fairly soon to fix that. And it was... it's gambling, right? You're like, "I'm gonna go bigger, and if this-"

   12. CWChris Williamson2:38

       It's called the sunk cost fallacy, when you're in-

   13. TOTom Otton2:40

       Yeah, there, there it is. It is the sunk cost fallacy.

   14. CWChris Williamson2:40

       ... in the casino floor. (laughs)

   15. TOTom Otton2:41

       Exactly, right? So let's throw, let's throw more money, good money after bad money. Um, but the th- it's, it's a risk, right? Because you're playing with your own mental space then. You're like, "If this works out, I'm, I'm good again. But if it doesn't work out, I've had two losses here, and they're getting bigger." So, you know, it's, it's... Oh, oh, it's the same as gambling, a good analogy. So the next thing we signed up for was Marathon Des Sables, which was 250 kilometers across the Sahara Desert. Uh, I'm not sure if Marcus was chatting about that, that earlier. And, um, that was the first big thing, and that was when we were talking about like reborn and the entire change of mindset. I, I sat on a charter flight out of Gatwick into, into Morocco. And I was nervous as hell. I wa- I l- I looked around, the only people on the flight were, were those doing the, the, the Marathon Des Sables. Um, and you, you see guys with like Ironman tattoos all over them, just like... It was just like elite athletes, extreme people. And I'm just sat there thinking, "Shit, what am I doing on this flight?"

   16. CWChris Williamson3:32

       "I'm a guy who complained about racing once." Yes.

   17. TOTom Otton3:34

       Yeah, last, last time... Yeah, last time I, I tried this, I j- it just fell to pieces. And I literally, I sat there and I wrote a, a few notes on a piece of paper. And it was... They were behavioral goals. It was, yes, it was finish, yes, don't die. Um, but then it was, you know, inspire others to finish. So, um, and another one were, don't complain once. So I was putting myself, I was challenging myself to the extent that it wasn't just about, "You need to try and finish this race." It was going far beyond that to say, "You're not gonna utter a single complaint, a single word that's negative for eight days on what the Discovery Channel has termed the toughest foot race on Earth. And you're going to inspire other people to finish." So... which was so far removed from where I'd been in the previous race that that was the challenge I was trying to set myself to, to, to really push limits and boundaries. And it was that... It was look- it was sitting on the flight out afterwards, yet not necessarily having a, a physical medal or anything like that, but I still had that dirty, uh, half torn piece of paper that I'd kept with me the whole time. And to be able to look down at each of those things and say, "I achieved that." Um, and that was, that was a, a real defining moment or a pivotal moment in terms of my journey in terms of improving mindset and, and headspace. And it went from there, really. Um, I did the Marathon Des Sables again, uh, this time down in Peru. So another 250K self-supported, you carry everything on your back and they only give you water for, for six days. Everything else you're carrying with you and you're running through sand. So you can imagine, I won't get into all the details, but, um, you can imagine what that's, um, what that's like. And then the, the most recent one, which was a little while back now, um, which was the 137 kilometer down across the Hatta, uh, mountain range in Oman, the border between UAE and Oman. And that was, that was a, that was a whole different ball game. The 250 across the Sahara sounds crazy, but you break that down into 30 to 40K a day, apart from on the fourth day we did 92 kilometers, something like that, which was pretty intense on, on the fourth day of running, um, because you're basically sleeping on the floor for five days at that point. So you can imagine like there's no showers, there's no nothing. It's, it's-

   18. CWChris Williamson5:37

       But in a good way.

   19. TOTom Otton5:38

       Yeah, it's not, it's not the best. Um, but the one in... down in Oman was a completely different ball game. That was, uh, uh, it was, it was single, single leg, so 137K straight through. And the combined elevation of that race was 8,000 meters. Um, to put that into context, you know, Everest is 8,800. So it... that was a, a

3. 5:58 – 10:10

   How long did nothing

   1. TOTom Otton5:58

      different ball game.

   2. CWChris Williamson5:58

      How long did that take?

   3. TOTom Otton5:59

      42 hours straight.

   4. CWChris Williamson6:01

      Without sleep?

   5. TOTom Otton6:02

      Without sleep. I was awake for 56 hours.So yeah, that was, um, a different ballgame.

   6. CWChris Williamson6:08

      What is it like to be awake for that long with physical exertion?

   7. TOTom Otton6:12

      You hallucinate. You- you start to have out-of-body experiences, and it's not just them... I know that sounds, um, dramatic, but that's- that's literally what happens. So like, during the second night, we started at 7:00 PM, so you run through the night, and you start to feel a little bit like, all over the place as the sun's coming up because you're still going. Then you go through all the heat of the day in the mountains, then you go through sunset again when your body's starting to tell itself it needs to sleep because of your circadian ryth- rhythm, as you well know, um, and then you- you're still going. And then you're going through that next night, now your body's like, "Hold on a second, we've been through two of these nights and you're still not in bed." (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson6:46

      (laughs) Something's happened to you.

   9. TOTom Otton6:46

      What's going on? Something's happening. Um, so they start, you know, your body starts to do certain things to- to try and get you to stop. You have all the logical conversations with yourself around why it's okay to stop, and why you should stop, and that pain is actually... Or you don't know what that could be, that could be something really bad. You know, all this negative self-talk, all of the reasons, logical reasons as to why you should stop. Um, and then you start to hallucinate, and that's a really interesting space. So the second night from around about, um, I'd say midnight to about 4:00 AM, I went, only went through one checkpoint and I was completely on my own, because they'd had, God, I think it was fif- 50% to 60% of the race had dropped out by that point. Um, it was the first time they'd ever run that race, and I don't think anybody realized how horrific it was going to be.

   10. CWChris Williamson7:31

       (laughs)

   11. TOTom Otton7:32

       Um, National Geographic did a- a- a whole documentary on- on the race. Um, it's only been run once at that length, so they- they did it one more time two years later, but- but, uh, that's it. Um, it's- it's- it's the most ridiculous thing. Like, we didn't realize, right? I mean, we're talking... The- the distance is almost irrelevant, the- the 137K, because people can only conceptualize that on a road, and that sounds pretty crazy. It's 137 kilometers on a road, it sounds pretty ridiculous. But when you put into the context of 8,000 meters of elevation, that means you're talking 1.2 kilometer down gorges. So you get to the edge of a gorge, you've got to go two kilometers as the crow flies, but you've gotta go 1.2 kilometers down into this gorge and 1.2 kilometers back up. You go for 5K, you hit another one. So you- you're talking, it takes you six hours to go the space of six kilometers, sometimes, or even longer. Like it's... We were clipped in with carabiners, climbing up cliff faces as part of this race, um, it- it- it was the most ridiculous thing. Like we got... The- the 120K mark, there was a checkpoint that I came into blown to pieces, like, you know, hallucinating through the night, um, eyes- eyes gone, legs gone, you know, just in- in- in bits. And that was 100... Sorry, that was 120 kilometers. The next three kilometers from 120K were straight vertical, 1.2 kilometers straight up, and we were scrambling, poles had to go away, um, and we were scrambling with like literally hands, like climbing, like scrambling up a- a cliff face. And we were, we'd... I'd been, I mean, I'd been awake... I don't, I don't know why I say "we" because I was on my own, but, um... (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson9:13

       (laughs) Me and the hallucinations in my head had been awake for ages.

   13. TOTom Otton9:16

       Yeah. It was just next level. And then, you know, it was, uh, it- it was scary as hell because, you know, during the day it was 32, 34, which living in the Middle East that's- that's okay, you can... We'd trained for that. But it was at night, um, winds like howling, and it was between six and eight degrees. So the- the- the difference, you- you- you know what it's like when you start to get tired, you start to get cold, now we're not used to the cold in the Middle East either. So now you're on a cliff face, it's blowing, it's pitch black, it's 3:00 in the morning, you're hallucinating, you're trying to scramble, you got 120 kilometers in your legs, um, and you, I mean, you barely know what day it is, so you just keep trying to move. So that was, um, I suppose that was the culmination of my personal journey of that first race in- in Wales, in Abergavenny, the one I just fell to pieces on an 80K. It wasn't flat, it was the Brecon Beacons, but it was pretty sedentary, badass.

   14. CWChris Williamson10:00

       Walk in the park compared to this.

   15. TOTom Otton10:01

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson10:01

       Afternoon stroll.

   17. TOTom Otton10:02

       Then you end up with that thing, and it was just like, you know, finishing it was, was just about survival. And it was, um, it was a, it was... Yeah, it was an interesting place.

4. 10:10 – 14:25

   Negative SelfTalk

   1. TOTom Otton10:10

   2. CWChris Williamson10:10

      You spoke about the logical, rational reasons to stop that your brain throws up.

   3. TOTom Otton10:18

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson10:18

      And I'm fascinated by those, because as someone who's never done an endurance race like that...

   5. TOTom Otton10:23

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson10:23

      Um, I put... Exercise is a lot.

   7. TOTom Otton10:25

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson10:25

      Everybody knows what it feels like to hear that voice. "Oh, that's a... That's a twinge. That's, uh, that's where you injured yourself three years ago, that might be coming back."

   9. TOTom Otton10:34

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson10:35

       What do you... What- what is going through your head? How do you deal with that negative self-talk and that doubt?

   11. TOTom Otton10:40

       Look, it's a really good question, and, um, one thing I really want to drive home for listeners to take away from this is that everybody experiences that negative self-talk, it doesn't matter who you are. Whether you're David Goggins, whether, you know, it doesn't matter who you are. And- and this is the... This is where a lot of people get it wrong, a lot of people think they're... That- that person, whoever it might be, is- must be made of something else because there's no way that they have the same narrative internally as I- as I do. And it's the same narrative. Sometimes I'm on a- a 10 or 15K run, and sometimes you just feel like shit and you- and you want to stop. It's exactly the same narrative. I know this is hard to understand, but it's exactly the same narrative as when you're there at- at- at- at 120 kilometers into a race. It's, "I want to stop. These are the reasons why. That all makes sense. It's okay." All of these things. So all of that will happen, and- and, you know, the listeners can experience that on a 10K run or- or it can be 120K, but it's just the same narrative. And it's understanding that it's okay to have that negative self-talk. Accept it. Don't- don't think that you're a lesser person because something in the back of your mind is telling you that you should stop when you're uncomfortable. At the end of the day, our brain is- is programmed to protect us. That's what it does throughout time, it protects us. So when you're putting your body through excessive strain, your brain's job (laughs) is to stop you from doing it.

   12. CWChris Williamson11:56

       (laughs)

   13. TOTom Otton11:56

       Your brain's job is not to push you harder. Your brain's job is to keep you with- inside your comfort zone, so...

   14. CWChris Williamson12:01

       In very inventive ways.

   15. TOTom Otton12:02

       In very inventive ways. Look, it's a crafty bugger.

   16. CWChris Williamson12:05

       (laughs)

   17. TOTom Otton12:05

       So you've got- you've got- you've got to accept the fact that that's gonna happen.Um, and, and it's, it's accepting that narrative and then, and then allowing, um, allowing yourself to, I suppose not allowing yourself, bringing different tools into play, to, to get through that and get past that. First thing is acceptance of that narrative and just being like, "Cool, I, I, I hear you. I'm not gonna listen to you, but I hear you. It's okay." And then it's also, you know, there's, there's all sorts of tricks that you can like, you start going Jedi mind tricks on yourself and you start thinking, "Right, well..." You know, there's, there's internal motivation, there's external motivation. Um, external motivation can be, "Okay, but when I get to the end of this race and I'm sat down with my support crew, you know, my wife, my girlfriend, my coach," whoever it might be, the external motivation is like what, what conversation do you wanna be having with them? "Oh, these are all the 15 reasons why I dropped out of this race and I didn't feel so good." So then, there's your external motivation right there. If you can visualize that, then straight away you're gonna be like, "No, I'm not having that conversation. No, I'm gonna keep going. I'm not having that conversation." That's the external side of it, right? The internal side of it, and there's always a, a... the ratio can, can change depending on a number of things. But the internal side of it has got to be like, "Why am I actually doing this?" If you're gonna put yourself through a very difficult situation, you need to know why beforehand. And the reason being is because it's inevitably going to get very difficult at some point. And if you don't have a reason why you're doing it that's valid, then what are you gonna do? You're gonna stop, right? You're gonna pull out of it because you'll think, "Why am I even here? I don't understand why I'm here." In the same way that, uh, uh, uh, maybe an understandable example of this, you sign up for your first marathon. It scares the shit outta you. You wake up at five o'clock in the morning. You know exactly why you're waking up at five o'clock in the morning. If you hadn't signed up for the marathon, and I said, "Wake up at five," I mean, you'd probably do that anyway, but if I said if you weren't a, a, an athlete and I said, "Right, wake up tomorrow morning at 5:00 AM and go for a run." Cool, okay, I'm motivated. Day three, what are you doing? You wake up at 5:00 AM, you're like, "What the hell am I doing?" Like, "Fuck it, I'm not doing that. There's no reason to do it." But if you signed up for a marathon and you're actually a bit worried about completing it, and you've got sponsorship and you've got all these things, you now have both internal and external motivation for, for getting through that. So, it's understanding that, that narrative internally and playing those, those Jedi mind tricks on yourself to get you through to, to complete the run or to get up in the morning or whatever it is that, that's causing you that pain

5. 14:25 – 17:52

   Dealing with Negative Situations

   1. TOTom Otton14:25

      at the time.

   2. CWChris Williamson14:25

      What was the transformation that you saw in yourself pre-endurance Tom and post-endurance Tom as a day-to-day?

   3. TOTom Otton14:34

      Um, not feeling sorry for myself about anything. Um, so not feeling that... Let's say you're in a negative situation, let's relate it to business or to life. Break up with a... in a relationship, whether it be a, that, whether it be a work situation. Not feeling sorry for myself in terms of, "This is happening to me." The conversation with myself is, "This is happening, and then how am I dealing with it?" Not, "This is happening to me." So for example, if we put it into a business situation, if we lose a contract for, for whatever reason, it's objectively looking at it and understanding why. If somebody does wrong by you, you can sit back and say, "Okay," well, you can take that victim's mindset of saying, "Right, why are all these things happening to me? Woe betide me." And, and you can sit in that little pool of self-pity for as long as you like. That's not gonna get you anywhere. Or you can understand that this is what's happening. How do I deal with it? 2020 is a prime example. We've al- as we've already said, it's a suboptimal year, as you very well put.

   4. CWChris Williamson15:32

      (laughs)

   5. TOTom Otton15:32

      Um, as we look at that, there's a lot of people, and, and, and I'm very conscious that everyone's going through a different experience with this, right? For some people it's devastating. For other people, it's, it's moving in their direction, and there's a whole range in between. So, certainly not being flippant to that fact at all, but also understanding that there is a mi- there is a way of dealing with this from a mindset perspective that will either benefit you or will not help you in any which way. And that's understanding that it's happening, and the dynamics have changed, so therefore it's just how you react to it. If it's a negative, if it, if it's affecting, affecting you and your- whatever your scenario is negatively, it just is what it is. And it's now understanding, "Okay, well if this is the new set of scenarios I have to deal with, how am I navigating it?" Or you sit at home and you're like, "This isn't my fault. Look at the world. Uh, I'm reading, I'm reading the news every day and, uh, the whole world's melting and I can't possibly find a, a single positive story in this and I can't positively, possibly, um, achieve any of my goals," or, "I can't think of new goals to set." And, and, you know, we- I'm sure we all know people that are, that are sitting in that space and just saying that, "None of this is my fault, therefore I can't do anything about it." And that, and that's the key difference. It's the mindset of like, is it, is it your fault or is it your responsibility? Like, it's not your fault that the world is melting down, but it is your responsibility to do something about it. Whether that be for you personally, whether that be through for your business, whether that be through for your family, or whatever it is. Like, that's your responsibility, right? Um, and I suppose that's the mindset shift of going back to a run. Everything... No, all hell's breaking loose. Your, your knee's gone. You've... Your water's run out. It's just a different set of scenarios, and you can't constantly play the victim's mindset of, "This is happening to me, therefore I give up." It's just a different set of scenarios that you've got to approach.

   6. CWChris Williamson17:19

      And that endurance experience has then transitioned across for you-

   7. TOTom Otton17:23

      Massively.

   8. CWChris Williamson17:23

      ... into everyday life.

   9. TOTom Otton17:24

      Yeah, massively, massively. So same with, with, you know, whether it be work, whether it be personal relationships, all of these things. You just approach it that this is a, a, a changing set of scenarios. If it's a mistake that you've made, own the mistake. You know, none of us are perfect, whether it be business, whether it be fitness, whether it be personal. We've all got our flaws. So own any mistakes that you make, but just try and make a positive impact wherever you can for yourself and for, you know, for the scenario that you're trying to affect, whether that be business or personal.

6. 17:52 – 25:55

   Naval Ravikant

   1. TOTom Otton17:52

   2. CWChris Williamson17:52

      I was reading The Almanack of Naval Ravikant again-

   3. TOTom Otton17:55

      Okay.

   4. CWChris Williamson17:55

      ... the other day. And in that he says, "You are born, a set of stimulus occurs, and then you die."

   5. TOTom Otton18:02

      Okay. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson18:03

      How you choose to respond is completely up to you.

   7. TOTom Otton18:06

      Perfect. Perfect.

   8. CWChris Williamson18:07

      And it's so simple, like-

   9. TOTom Otton18:08

      Wish I'd said that rather than the last 15 minutes of the conversation. (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson18:11

       No, that one was-

   11. TOTom Otton18:11

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson18:11

       That was much more insightful, right? That's one of the problems that I have. Uh, I'm...... unsure how I feel about this pithy aphorism maxim world.

   13. TOTom Otton18:21

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson18:21

       I like the fact that you can deliver an entire concept, and maybe everyone that's listening, when they think about you're born, you receive-

   15. TOTom Otton18:28

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson18:28

       ... some stimulus and you pass away-

   17. TOTom Otton18:30

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson18:30

       ... how you choose to respond is up to you. Maybe that will be what they take and think, "Ah, that tells me all about the lessons-"

   19. TOTom Otton18:35

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson18:35

       "... that Tom gave me."

   21. TOTom Otton18:36

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson18:36

       In that element, I like it.

   23. TOTom Otton18:38

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson18:38

       And another element, it can become quite a sort of masturbatory, um, showy game-

   25. TOTom Otton18:44

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson18:44

       ... of who can cite-

   27. TOTom Otton18:45

       Summarize stuff. (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson18:46

       ... cite the most sort of cerebral cool quote.

   29. TOTom Otton18:49

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson18:49

       Um, but yeah.
7. 25:55 – 29:50

   Toms Process

   1. TOTom Otton25:55

   2. CWChris Williamson25:55

      Is that done in advance? Do you look at your year? Is this very, is it a very structured thing? You can't just decide to run an ultra-marathon tomorrow, but similarly, there's a lot of inputs that we don't have control over.

   3. TOTom Otton26:07

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson26:08

      The new catastrophe that inevitably-

   5. TOTom Otton26:10

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson26:10

      ... occurs at work.

   7. TOTom Otton26:11

      2020.

   8. CWChris Williamson26:11

      The injury that throws your-

   9. TOTom Otton26:12

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson26:13

       ... training schedule out, the argument you have with your missus.

   11. TOTom Otton26:16

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson26:16

       Et cetera, et cetera. What is the process that you go through to kind of set that out? Because it sounds fantastic.

   13. TOTom Otton26:23

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson26:24

       And everyone that's listening should have listened to the episode you did with Greg McKeown on essentialism.

   15. TOTom Otton26:28

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson26:28

       Focus on the vital few, not the trivial many. Where is the single highest point of contribution that you can have in your life? And go for that.

   17. TOTom Otton26:36

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson26:37

       Naval Ravikant, uh, "Become the best in the world at what you do. Continue to redefine what you do until it's true."

   19. TOTom Otton26:43

       Okay.

   20. CWChris Williamson26:44

       Um, and all of these different things take us to the same place.

   21. TOTom Otton26:47

       Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson26:47

       Which is deep, focused work, single-task focus.

   23. TOTom Otton26:50

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson26:50

       Multi-tasking's bullshit. You can't do multiple things at once. And even if you try to spread that out really across month periods-

   25. TOTom Otton26:56

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson26:56

       ... you can't open the new office whilst you train for the ultra-marathon.

   27. TOTom Otton26:59

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson26:59

       It's just not going to happen.

   29. TOTom Otton27:00

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson27:01

       But implementing that-
8. 29:50 – 34:55

   Personal Life

   1. TOTom Otton29:50

      whatever it is. "If I want to run a marathon this year. If I want to do X, Y, or Z."

   2. CWChris Williamson29:53

      Lose 50 pounds.

   3. TOTom Otton29:54

      Whatever it is.

   4. CWChris Williamson29:55

      Get a partner.

   5. TOTom Otton29:56

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson29:56

      Start a family.

   7. TOTom Otton29:57

      There, there we go. You know, if you wanna, if you wanna g- get a partner, for example, and, and you might have been meeting the wrong people, you're probably going to the wrong places. So, you know how, these things don't just happen. You know, business doesn't just build itself. A, a marathon doesn't run itself. And, you know, finding a partner, sometimes you can be lucky, but quite often you've actually got to start to think about it. Especially as we get a little bit older, we're not meeting the hundreds of people that we used to 'cause we're not going out as much. You have to be a little bit more considerate of being like, "Okay, well, if I want to meet the right people, where am I going to put myself into the situations of hopefully meeting those people?" So everything needs to be thought through to an extent, and then life happens, right? So then you gotta roll with the punches sometimes. Sometimes that's serendipity and it all works out and it's amazing and you're like, "Wow, I could never have scripted it." And other times the shit hits the fan and you've got to deal with a new set of scenarios, as we discussed earlier. But at least have some sort of structure. 'Cause if you don't, what are you doing? Just, you're just bouncing off the walls.

   8. CWChris Williamson30:49

      Yeah.You know what I've just thought of there, which would be a really cool thing to do, and I'm gonna maybe suggest to some of my buddies that we might do it this year-

   9. TOTom Otton30:56

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson30:56

       ... would be to have an AGM on your life.

   11. TOTom Otton31:00

       That's great, isn't it?

   12. CWChris Williamson31:00

       ... at the end of the year.

   13. TOTom Otton31:01

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson31:01

       And do it, you know, around about Christmastime-

   15. TOTom Otton31:03

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson31:03

       ... when everyone's back home.

   17. TOTom Otton31:04

       What have you achieved?

   18. CWChris Williamson31:05

       Yeah. "How was your year, man?"

   19. TOTom Otton31:07

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson31:07

       "What went well?" You know, present to the board.

   21. TOTom Otton31:09

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson31:09

       Like, "The floor is yours, Tom."

   23. TOTom Otton31:10

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson31:10

       Like, you know, "Step up and tell us what did you, what did well, what did badly, what do you wish that you could have improved on."

   25. TOTom Otton31:15

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson31:16

       "And what are your goals for next year? What do we all want to achieve next year? How can we help? How can..." "Oh, you wanna do that ultra thing? Well, actually, I happen to have two complete psychopaths in-"

   27. TOTom Otton31:24

       (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson31:24

       "... Dubai that I'm buddies with-"

   29. TOTom Otton31:26

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson31:26

       "... who can tell you about the best training plan, or this thing."
9. 34:55 – 36:55

   Supporting Each Other

   1. TOTom Otton34:55

      um, how you're supporting them and how they're gonna support you. So if you create that environment with this AGM, with the four, or five, or six people that you've got in your head-

   2. CWChris Williamson35:02

      Annual growth meeting.

   3. TOTom Otton35:03

      There you go, annual growth meeting. There you go. Perfect.

   4. CWChris Williamson35:06

      We've nailed it, man.

   5. TOTom Otton35:07

      Yeah, but it's, it's a super important concept. If you've got those people in your life, you're lucky, right?

   6. CWChris Williamson35:11

      Mm-hmm.

   7. TOTom Otton35:11

      Unfortunately, a lot of people that are gonna be listening might be thinking, "Well, I'm thinking about the people I hang out with every day."

   8. CWChris Williamson35:17

      Yeah.

   9. TOTom Otton35:17

      "They're not really helping me grow."

   10. CWChris Williamson35:17

       My AGM's gonna be a board meeting of me and the cat.

   11. TOTom Otton35:19

       (laughs) Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson35:20

       Yeah.

   13. TOTom Otton35:20

       So, so it's super important. If you can't think of people to put on that board, let's say, in this concept that we're talking about now, then you need to start to think about that because that will have such a significant effect on your future that you need to start thinking about it and thinking, "Okay, I need to spend time with people like that, that will make me think and make me feel good about myself, that will challenge me, that will allow me to grow, that will push me to grow." That's gonna be the, one of the single biggest... That and your own mindset are gonna be the biggest factors in determining your success.

   14. CWChris Williamson35:49

       Where do you see people around you going wrong the most with motivation and with staying on track?

   15. TOTom Otton35:56

       Sure. Victim mindset all the time. And it, it, it, it blows my mind and it frustrates the shit out of me. It's people feeling sorry for themselves, thinking that, you know, everything's happening to them, that life is happening to them, um, not, and, and it's not happening because of them. They're not actually taking those steps forward. They're, they're, they're seeing what's happening. They're saying, "Hands up. I give up. This isn't my fault. I'm allowed to quit because of these things that have happened." And it's, and it's that going back to that, is it your fault or is it your responsibility? It's going back to that thought process. And it's that, that frustrates me at the end of the day. Um, it's people not taking ownership of whatever that problem is. And it's, and it's very easy, it's very easy to be negative, right? There's, uh, there's a thousand reasons as to why, you know, why you can't achieve what you wanna achieve. There's, there's always so many reasons as to, that you can point to, uh, 'cause we all, we all have stressful lives, right? We've all got, we all, none of us have enough time. None of us, um, have all the resources that we want, whether that be financial or otherwise. Um-So,

10. 36:55 – 38:14

    I Dont Have Enough

    1. TOTom Otton36:55

       it's- it's- it's that mindset of- of saying, "I don't have enough. I don't have enough time, I don't have enough," whatever, "to achieve what I want to achieve, and because of all these scenarios and these things that I have no impact on, I therefore can't achieve X,Y or Z." And that, to be honest, mate, it frustrates the shit out of me.

    2. CWChris Williamson37:12

       That point of people realizing, leaning into that discomfort and actually thinking, "What's the next step?" Trying to get over the inertia of noticing that there's something wrong, is it for you- is your solution not looking to have regrets? Is it an aggression like leaning into discomfort? Is it a "I'm grateful to be here," mo- sort of mindful acceptance?

    3. TOTom Otton37:38

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson37:38

       You understand? There's multiple different ways that people could get over that because as you said already, everybody feels like that.

    5. TOTom Otton37:45

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CWChris Williamson37:45

       Like, "Why is this occurring?" That thought no- it pops up, it's how you deal with that and then move forward. What's your sort of personal strategy with that?

    7. TOTom Otton37:53

       Look, I mean, uh, (sighs) for- for me it's- it's just... Yeah, I mean, look, to be honest with you, it goes back to that- that- that same thought process around- around feeling sorry for yourself or not. It's just, um, you know, how do you get yourself out of that rut? How do you focus on moving forward? How do you keep- how do you keep challenging yourself? How do you keep wanting to grow? I mean, for me, um,

11. 38:14 – 39:17

    Leadership Challenges

    1. TOTom Otton38:14

       there's a few... I mean, you- you touched on something before we started the podcast actually about, um, around leadership, right? So, 2020 has been a challenge for leadership in n- in a number of different areas. Now, as you can imagine without me going into all the details, if you're dealing with 100 people that- that I look after in the agency that are remote working now. So that- that was one thing. Everyone come together, right? As of 48 hours' time, no one's coming back to the office.

    2. CWChris Williamson38:40

       (laughs) .

    3. TOTom Otton38:40

       Everyone's going remote. So, you're thinking of the operational challenges because clients don't give two shits whether you're in the office or whether you're at home. Like, they want the work done.

    4. CWChris Williamson38:46

       They've got deliverables are deliverables, right?

    5. TOTom Otton38:47

       So yeah, deliverables are deliverables. And if you're late, you're late. So, like, you know, that- that was a challenge anyway, just navigating that side of it. But yeah, you're right. When I'm having clients phoning up and saying, "Oh, we've got to put this on hold because X, Y or Z," or, "Our funding's been pulled by the government, so, you know, we've got to- got to stop this contract," and all this chaos on one side, but yet you've got to be a cheerleader to e- to the entire team on- on the other side and be like, "You know, we're in this together and we're- we're going to drive through, we're going to run through walls together," and trying to get everyone motivated to really pull them together and really build the culture within the agency.

12. 39:17 – 41:00

    Internal Dialogue

    1. TOTom Otton39:17

       Now that's- that's a real challenge. And, you know, at- at- at multiple times, whether it be that scenario of like, you've got to lean into that uncomfort, you have to lean into that- that- that pain. And that is how you grow. That is what a leader does. And so you can have these- you can have this internal dialogue and this is often a good- this is one that's really worked well for me, is imagining what the ideal leader would do. So, don't put yourself in the situation at this point. Let's say, okay, X has happened. You happen to be the leader of this scenario, whether it be your business, whether it be your team, whether it be, you know, whatever your scenario is. You're the leader in this particular, um, scenario. X has happened and it's- and it's- and it's bad. Now, you- you should look at that. This is how I do it. I look at it and be like, "Okay, let's remove myself from this. Remove the emotion from it." I look at it and be like, "If I was reading about this in a book, what would the ideal leader do? How would they behave? How would they act? How would they engage with their team? How would they engage with whatever it is that's the challenge?" And I build that little framework. And sometimes this entire conversation can happen in my head in one minute before I- whilst I go quiet, figure it out and then- and then act. Or, it can- you might have a bit more time, you might have a few days to understand what's happened and work out what you're going to do next. So, it's- it's understanding, taking the emotion out of it, figuring out what that blueprint looks like, and then putting yourself back into it and saying, "This is what I have to do." So, it's al- like, you create the blueprint of what you need to do next. You create your plan in your head and then you say, "But I'm the leader in this scenario, so I have to do these things. I have to be the one that stands up and puts my hand up and say, 'Actually, this is the scenario.'" Um, it could be, I mean, we're talking about

13. 41:00 – 42:02

    Dealing With Uncomfortable Things

    1. TOTom Otton41:01

       (sighs) often when it's a- a particularly uncomfortable situation, you might not know how to deal with it. It could be something at- at work that- that's happened between two people. It can be, um, a social situation within work, but let's say, I don't know, a worldwide social movement and you're like, "How do I engage with what's going on in the world and relate it to my team and be the figurehead for it, and do I bring everyone together to discuss this or do we pretend like it's not happening? How should we do it?" So again, going back to I sit on my own. I think about what would the ideal leader do here and then I try and do it and I try and emulate that. So... And that's mostly leaning into uncomfortable things. So, if you have that mindset, that often will dictate 'cause you've already made the- the decision to yourself, "I'm going to always try and do the... Once I've come up with a plan, I'm the guy that's going to do it." So, constantly doing that, you remove the choice of saying, "Oh, do I feel like this? Do I not feel like this?" Because nine times out of ten, if it's worth doing, you don't feel like doing it. But you- you look back on it and you think, "Shit, I'm really glad I did that." And someone else is there

14. 42:02 – 44:41

    The Third Party Perspective

    1. TOTom Otton42:02

       going, "That was a really good move."

    2. CWChris Williamson42:03

       "That was the decision to make, yeah."

    3. TOTom Otton42:04

       "That was the decision to make."

    4. CWChris Williamson42:05

       There's a few things we've been through recently that tie in with this. The third party perspective as it's called, which is a mental model that-

    5. TOTom Otton42:12

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CWChris Williamson42:12

       ... doesn't take your side or the opposite side, it imagines you as a third person.

    7. TOTom Otton42:16

       Okay.

    8. CWChris Williamson42:16

       Uh, there's a famous Joe Rogan video for- on it called Be the Hero of Your Own Story.

    9. TOTom Otton42:21

       Okay.

    10. CWChris Williamson42:21

        And he says, imagine that your life is a movie and the movie starts now and the hero's downtrodden and overweight and depressed and like, doesn't have a partner and he's lonely. Like, what would the hero do? Like, you're that guy. Do that now.

    11. TOTom Otton42:36

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson42:37

        You can be that hero right now.

    13. TOTom Otton42:38

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson42:38

        And then, uh, James Clear talks about identity based change. So, the way that James gets people to change their habits, especially difficult and ingrained ones, is he gets you to ask, "What would the person I want to be do in this situation?"

    15. TOTom Otton42:55

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    16. CWChris Williamson42:55

        So rather than being a smoker that's trying to quit smoking, it's-I don't smoke. I'm not a smoker. What would not-a-smoker do-

    17. TOTom Otton43:03

        Yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson43:03

        ... right now?

    19. TOTom Otton43:04

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson43:04

        Not a smoker wouldn't have a cigarette.

    21. TOTom Otton43:06

        Yeah, yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson43:06

        So not-a-smoker Tom and not-a-smoker Chris wouldn't do it.

    23. TOTom Otton43:10

        Mm-hmm.

    24. CWChris Williamson43:11

        Decision made.

    25. TOTom Otton43:12

        Yeah.

    26. CWChris Williamson43:12

        It does help us to cut through... I've been fascinated this year thinking about just how much noise our brains create, and that having these very, very simple heuristics. George McGill, my good buddy who was on the show yesterday, said Elon Musk, every decision he makes, there's one rule, one heuristic that he follows: Will this get the human race closer to Mars?

    27. TOTom Otton43:35

        Amazing.

    28. CWChris Williamson43:36

        Jeff Bezos, Amazon-

    29. TOTom Otton43:37

        Mm-hmm.

    30. CWChris Williamson43:37

        ... one rule: Does this improve the customer's experience?
15. 44:41 – 47:04

    The Marathon

    1. TOTom Otton44:41

       conceptually understandable for, for us, that we're not- (laughs)

    2. CWChris Williamson44:45

       Going to Mars.

    3. TOTom Otton44:45

       We're not those guys, right? We're not going to Mars. But let's go, let's use the marathon as an example again, right? So if you've set that goal of, of running a marathon or whatever the challenge is for yourself, every decision you make either takes you closer to that goal or further away. So once you define exactly what it is that goal is in your life, every decision falls within the framework of getting you closer or further away. So it doesn't surprise me. I haven't, I hadn't heard that about, um, about Elon Musk. But that doesn't surprise me at all. And that's what, that's what goal-setting is all about, right? 'Cause if you have a clear goal, then everything else becomes so much more simple. Now, with, with the ultras, someone would ph- "Oh, do you want to go for a beer tonight?" "No." C- very, very simple, very simple to make that. Because if I do that, it's getting me further away from my goal. And if you're super focused on where you want to go, and it goes back to the m- the micro imbalance and the macro balance, at that time, if, if that decision gets you closer or further away, it's a very easy decision to make, isn't it?

    4. CWChris Williamson45:44

       Hmm. Well-

    5. TOTom Otton45:45

       If you've fully bought in, if you've fully bought into it.

    6. CWChris Williamson45:48

       What advice would you give yourself 10 years ago?

    7. TOTom Otton45:50

       Good question. Um, focus on people. And what I mean by that is, that's used across so many different, so many different ways. The, there, there's, any success we've had in the agency, um, over the last few years is purely because of the people that we have in the business, but the focus on people within the community that we have. We have a, we have an outstanding internal team culture, is, is the thing that I'm most proud of. More than any other accolade of fastest growing and the clients we have or anything like that, it's the, it's the culture we have in the business that there's- there's no bullshit, there's no politics, there's no backstabbing, there's no, there, there's none of this. And we're operating in a, in a, in an environment that's notorious for it. Agency life is notorious for all of the things that I just said, especially in this region. So we've created this environment where we have a very, very low staff turnover, um, and we focus on, we focus on people over profits. And that's not just a nice thing that is put up on the wall, but it's, it's, it really is the deciding factor of everything that we do. And there's a number of reasons around that. I'm personally not motivated about chasing money. It's not why I get out of bed in the morning. And, and

16. 47:04 – 50:41

    The Compliment Circle

    1. TOTom Otton47:04

       it allows me to make decisions really easily with regards to, "Okay, that's going to cost us more money, but it's the right thing to do for the people." So we just do that time and time and time again. And 10 years later, you end up with a culture where everybody in the environment knows exactly what's, um, I suppose what's championed and what's, uh, you know, what's celebrated and what's, you know, what's promoted within the business. And it's, it's not sales. It's not bringing in a big contract. It's not, it's not all of those financial drivers, although they're important, because we're still a, you know, we're still a business and, you know, that has to work for, for everybody to be able to come to work. But the focus is always, always about what people have done for each other. I'll give you an example. We u- we do, I do a, a full agency meeting every Wednesday. So about everybody on the call, anywhere from 80 to 100 people on a, on a-

    2. CWChris Williamson47:51

       Wow.

    3. TOTom Otton47:51

       ... on a Zoom call. And we start every single meeting with 10 minutes we call the Compliment Circle. So everybody in the Zoom chat, um, everyone in the Zoom chat writes down what they're grateful for and to whom they're grateful, so from a work context. "So, oh, thanks so much for Jenny, 'cause she went over and above."

    4. CWChris Williamson48:09

       What were you grateful for this week? Can you remember?

    5. TOTom Otton48:11

       What was I grateful for this week? Um, for me, um, to be honest, it's the, it's, it's literally the management of the workload that we've got on right now. We're in a fortunate space where we spent 10 years building our, our digital credibility and, and, and pushing the business into that space. COVID has, has accelerated digital. So, you know, we're in a fortunate space that we're very busy right now, um, because we're managing all of this. It's changing dynamics, but we're, we're, we're busy in that space. And I'm incredibly grateful for the amount of work that the team is dealing with, because we've got people that are, that are burning themselves to the floor, that my job is to facilitate that as much as I can, hire as many people as we can to try and depressurize. And we're a growing organism. We're not perfect. Like, we make mistakes as a business, but the intent is always correct. We're always trying to do the best by our clients. We're always trying to do the best by our people internally. And because of that-... we're giving leeway internally, our team will run through walls for us, because they know that we're not trying to- we're not asking them to run through the wall because we want to make more money. We're saying that, "This is the scenario. How do we, how do we get through this together?" And they're, and they're putting their hand up and being like, "Well, I'll run through that wall." "Cool, okay. John's-"

    6. CWChris Williamson49:20

       "You take that one."

    7. TOTom Otton49:21

       "John's running through that wall."

    8. CWChris Williamson49:22

       Yeah.

    9. TOTom Otton49:22

       And Bob's like, "I'm gonna run through that wall." And because we've got this cur- this, this culture internally, that's what's happening. Now, for me, that's great. Firstly, that's A, a successful business culture internally, and, and it's the right thing to do because it's the right thing from a human and empathetic perspective. But I don't wanna build a business on, on people burning themselves and running through walls. That's, that's not what I wanna do, 'cause then that defeats the purpose of my goal, which is running a, a human-focused, empathetic organisation. So my focus is, right, shit, okay, let's focus on recruitment. We need more people in. That person needs support. That person needs support. That account, the client's not paying for those extra two people, but we have to put them on it because these guys are getting killed here. Because, you know, the, they're- the client's that much more demanding. It's a government client. We can't really say no. We're stuck in a bit of an awkward place, throw more resource at it because yes, we'll lose money on that account perhaps, but the people will be okay. And then over time, we'll work out how to bring it back into a profitable space. So we don't run the business from a spreadsheet. We run the business from looking at people and saying, "Okay, what do we need to do right by people whilst at the same time running a good organisation?" And that's allowed us over the last two years to, you know, to win those accolades of, you know, fastest growing agencies and blah, blah, blah. Um, and that's what we're trying to do. It's just, it's just focus on people.

    10. CWChris Williamson50:37

        That's your going to Mars.

    11. TOTom Otton50:39

        That's my going to Mars. Yeah.

17. 50:41 – 52:17

    Focusing on people first

    1. TOTom Otton50:41

    2. CWChris Williamson50:41

       I really like it. I think to hear in especially this year-

    3. TOTom Otton50:45

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson50:46

       ... of all years, a year where people have been made redundant left, right, and center, and had job and career challenges-

    5. TOTom Otton50:50

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CWChris Williamson50:51

       ... that focusing on people first has been antifragile is a very reassuring thing to hear.

    7. TOTom Otton50:59

       Yeah, I mean, that served us so well whilst coronavirus, uh, just decimated everything, right? You know, we've got- it's i- in terms of, like, how people- people knew that the company had their back and that helped them in many, many ways. We paid for professionals to come in and do, uh, mental health workshops for the team.

    8. CWChris Williamson51:19

       No way.

    9. TOTom Otton51:19

       We were sending Deliveroo credit once a week-

    10. CWChris Williamson51:22

        (laughs)

    11. TOTom Otton51:22

        ... to everybody in the agency so that, um, so that everyone could get Del- Deliveroo to deliver their lunch and then everyone would get on Zoom and we'd all have team lunch together. So we honestly, we, we did, we did so many things to try and focus on, on bringing everyone together and, and making everyone understand that, you know, the company's here for you, like we as an agency, we'll, we'll get through this together. And, and that definitely helped. It definitely helped the team. And as things started to get better, you know, economically with the business, you know, w- we were losing clients because, you know, major events. Expo got put on hold for example. We had a social media agency for Expo.

    12. CWChris Williamson51:54

        Right.

    13. TOTom Otton51:54

        I had six people on that account full time and then they sent us a letter saying, "As of next week."

    14. CWChris Williamson51:59

        Expo 2021 now. (laughs)

    15. TOTom Otton52:00

        Yeah. But there you go. So, you know, we had a few things like that where sort of, you know, revenues got hit, but, you know, we didn't cut anybody's salary, we didn't let anybody go, we didn't do any of those things. And we said, "Right, we're gonna pay for this. We're gonna fund this as long as we can without affecting anybody in, in the organisation because

18. 52:17 – 53:27

    The right thing to do

    1. TOTom Otton52:17

       that's the right thing to do." And that's gonna cost myself as a shareholder, um, that's gonna cost us, but it's the right thing to do. It'll all- it'll- from a selfish perspective, it will let me sleep at night to know that I'm not basically borrowing from my team by cutting their salaries to then keep that money here to- for a rainy day. We said, "Right, if we need to put all of this back in to keep these guys safe, then that's what we're gonna do." And the market fortunately started to come back a little bit earlier than it has for most because we're in the digital space. We picked up more work. And then as that happened, what did the team do? They start running through walls because they saw what we did, you know? So not even just a- I mean, it- yeah, it sounds like it's a good business decision, but it wa- it wasn't. That's just-

    2. CWChris Williamson52:57

       Mm-hmm.

    3. TOTom Otton52:57

       That was just the payoff for doing the right thing from a human perspective. And that's what's, you know, that's what's the most important and that's wh- why we're where we are today. And we've, you know, we've hired 40 people since January. Um, and, you know, that's because we've, we've focused on, on people and they've run through walls. We win, we win accounts because of that and, um, it's just I'm proud to be part of that team, not to run the company and own that company. It's, I'm proud to be part of that group of people where I can walk in and everyone's high-fiving each other and you just think, "Shit, you know what? This is a good

19. 53:27 – 56:31

    dictatorial companies

    1. TOTom Otton53:27

       place to be."

    2. CWChris Williamson53:28

       I've seen some companies that I think you say dictatorially try and achieve the same thing.

    3. TOTom Otton53:35

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson53:36

       So I've seen some companies during my experience where-

    5. TOTom Otton53:41

       Yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson53:42

       ... they have a autocratic forced level of socialisation and people are walking along and they're always- they've gotta high-five everybody when they-

    7. TOTom Otton53:52

       Because they feel like they should. Yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson53:53

       ... when they make a sale and the whole thing stops and stuff like that.

    9. TOTom Otton53:57

       Yeah. Yeah.

    10. CWChris Williamson53:57

        And, um, I always wonder, it feels a little bit like America. Sorry to all of the Americans that are listening.

    11. TOTom Otton54:02

        (laughs)

    12. CWChris Williamson54:03

        Um, you know when someone's in a brand new relationship and all they do is post about their relationship?

    13. TOTom Otton54:08

        Yeah. That's not just America though.

    14. CWChris Williamson54:09

        Yeah. But, so-

    15. TOTom Otton54:10

        But other, other-

    16. CWChris Williamson54:10

        So I'm getting on to America. Wait.

    17. TOTom Otton54:12

        Okay. Okay.

    18. CWChris Williamson54:12

        I ha- I ha- I haven't forgotten about you Americans. Um, someone's in a brand new relationship, all of their Facebook photos, then they get to normal level of Facebook photos and then they start popping back up and you think, "I think there's something wrong." And I think that-

    19. TOTom Otton54:24

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson54:24

        ... that is what they're holding onto.

    21. TOTom Otton54:26

        Sure.

    22. CWChris Williamson54:26

        And when I hear the way that people from America who are quite rightly proud of their country-

    23. TOTom Otton54:32

        Mm-hmm.

    24. CWChris Williamson54:32

        ... it- it's a little bit like the lady doth protest too much. It feels a bit sort of like, "Really? Like all the time-"

    25. TOTom Otton54:39

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    26. CWChris Williamson54:39

        "... I love my country. I miss that." And you think-

    27. TOTom Otton54:41

        Yeah.

    28. CWChris Williamson54:41

        ... "Well, there's quite a lot of problems in your country."

    29. TOTom Otton54:42

        Yeah.

    30. CWChris Williamson54:43

        Um, but when I see these companies who operate in the same way-
20. 56:31 – 1:06:35

    free lunch

    1. TOTom Otton56:31

       and, and is free lunches gonna, gonna do the th- do the thing? Is it like... (laughs) Is it, um... no, is it all the perks? Is it the, you know, whatever, you go into Facebook, "Oh, wow, you can... you've got a whole kitchen here, you can make your food." Is it all those things? No, it's not. People want to feel safe. That's it. Like if they feel safe when they come into work, that they're not gonna be judged, they're not gonna be, um, ostracized for, for whatever reason, they're not gonna be fired because politically it was the right thing to do. Um, if they feel safe coming to work, then they can really bring themselves to work as humans. And that can be anything that goes with that. So we focus on the fact that this is something that, that I speak to every single person in a, in an interview about. I say, "Look, if you, you've... you're choosing to come and work here, and we really respect that. 'Cause you're choosing to invest your time, which is the most important element that any of us have. You're choosing to invest your time in the agency, you're choosing to invest your career in this organization. And we, we're firstly very grateful for that. But we understand that this is a two-way relationship. Yes, you're getting paid a salary to do that, but you're investing a huge amount of who you are. And I know how busy the agency is, so I know what you're gonna be investing in this." And that comes from a, a new joiner or, or existing, it's the same dialogue, same conversation. So therefore, as an agency, we have a responsibility not just to say, "Cool. Well, at 6:00 PM, (sighs) you're not our responsibility anymore. You go and ki- you keep your personal life out of this because that's, that's your life. And we're only interested in the hours that we pay you for." That's, that's not how we operate, but it's how a lot of businesses operate. You shouldn't be able to come in and start crying at work because something's happened at home. Like you have to be human in the workplace. And if, if you, if you create the environment where someone can really bring their humanity into the workplace and say, "I'm having a really shit day because of A, B, C, or D." And when we're dealing with the size of workforce that we have, we have parents dying, we have, um, scenarios of someone getting terminally ill. We have, um... whether that be their workforce or their, their, their, their sister, their brother, you know, there's, there's things going on all the time. And we had a core focus from, from early on of saying, "Right, well, we need to look after them in, in, in their entirety." So we've like... we've gone to pick somebody up from an office because we've been told something has happened in their family before they've been told.

    2. CWChris Williamson58:49

       Wow.

    3. TOTom Otton58:49

       We've had to pick them up from a client meeting with a plane ticket and be like, "You need to go home." And take them to the airport, get them on a plane. Like we have to look after people to that level because, at the end of the day, how can, how can we ask so much of people in the workspace when I know that they're working on weekends, I know that they'll be working in the evening for that pitch tomorrow morning? All of those things. So as a company, we've made the decision that we will look after the entirety of that person, whether that be sometimes financially giving them like... something's gone on at home, will that help? Cool, that'll help. And, and that's not something we talk about across the business and from one person to the other person, they don't know that we've done it. It's not something that we celebrate, but it's something that we do on an individual level often. 'Cause we'll have someone in the office crying their eyes out because of A, B, C, and D. And if, if myself or as a, as a company, we have the opportunity to fix that problem by telling that person that, "What do you mean you're, you're waiting for a week to get on the plane because of X, Y, and Z? Like absolutely no, workload off, money, there you go. Go." (laughs) You know, we've had scenarios where someone's not wanted to say that they're waiting for their salary to come through in a week's time to get on a plane to go and see their sick father. I was just like, "What?" They were new. They didn't know that they could actually ask for these things. And I was like, "There's a plane ticket, I'm not even taking it out of your salary. Off you go, come back when, you know, when you're okay."

    4. CWChris Williamson1:00:07

       One thing that I've thought about a lot recently, and this ties into it, is how athletes and sports people have a lot of mental models that we probably should port across into real life.

    5. TOTom Otton1:00:18

       Oh, massively.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:00:19

       And think about what every group sport is called. It's a team.

    7. TOTom Otton1:00:24

       Yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:00:24

       What does a team do? Team works together to achieve the goals.

    9. TOTom Otton1:00:28

       Yep.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:00:28

        I think team, in a business context, a lot of the time is just a title.

    11. TOTom Otton1:00:33

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:00:34

        I've been a part of teams, and I'm sure you have as well, where no one cares.

    13. TOTom Otton1:00:39

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:00:39

        You turn up... How many people know that I can't be myself at work? I can't say what I mean to say.

    15. TOTom Otton1:00:47

        (inhales through teeth) Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:00:47

        And the team isn't working together. You're pulling in that direction. I'm pulling in this one.

    17. TOTom Otton1:00:51

        Yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:00:51

        And John's pulling that way, and we're getting nowhere.

    19. TOTom Otton1:00:52

        Everyone's pretending to be robots, right? 'Cause everyone's bringing their work selves to work. So that's... there's a problem there already. And like you said, there's, you know, there's high performing teams and there's certain indicators of high performing teams that are similar across all. So on one of the Wednesday calls that I do, I, I talk through different things that I might have picked up during the week that I think will help the... help the organization-... the team. And one of them the other day was actually the All Blacks, so it was the tenets of the, uh, of the All Blacks rugby team.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:01:18

        What are they?

    21. TOTom Otton1:01:19

        Um, I can't remember all of them. Um, (laughs) but one that certainly stands out, uh, is no dickheads.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:01:24

        Fine.

    23. TOTom Otton1:01:24

        And that's, that's the actual words.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:01:25

        What an- what an unbelievable rule to live life by, yeah.

    25. TOTom Otton1:01:28

        Yeah. And they're literally like, "It doesn't matter how good you are, if you're a dickhead, you're not on this team." So you could be the greatest rugby player that the world has ever seen. If you act like a dickhead, you're gone. The other one is sweep the sheds. So sweep the sheds is, doesn't matter who you are, could be Richie McCaw, in this case, as the, as the captain of the team. You should still be the guy that's sweeping the changing rooms after a game. You should be able to do that, and you should do that at times. So it's about understanding that nobody's too big. Nobody's bigger than the team itself. Nobody's more important than the team itself. And myself included. I might own the business, but I'm there, sleeves rolled up, with the team when it, when it needs me. And that's what, that's what you need to, that's what you need to be able to do. So the way that we talk internally is we're somewhere between a family and a high performing team. We do more on the family side than most companies would, but don't think that you can come in- come into work day after day and not perform, 'cause you will be asked to leave.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:02:19

        (laughs)

    27. TOTom Otton1:02:20

        And everyone knows that. You know, we've, we've moved people out of the businesses that just, I- A ) the only thing, the only thing we're ruthless on in the company, the only thing, is culture. So we've had people that have come in, done a great job, and getting WhatsApp messages from the client saying how happy they are with this new person that's running their account, but they're being a dickhead internally. Three weeks later, they're gone.

    28. CWChris Williamson1:02:39

        Gone.

    29. TOTom Otton1:02:39

        I phone the client. "I'm sorry. I know they were really good at their job. I know you love them, blah, blah, blah. But no, internally, they were gossiping, they were just niggling, just... They were the sort of cancer that you need to pull out very quickly before it starts to poison the well." Um, and that was, uh, yeah, that- that's the one thing that we, that we focus on.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:02:57

        To back that up, I remember reading an example about putting problem students in with groups of high performers, and what the researchers were trying to look at was, does one bad apple spoil the lot?

Episode duration: 1:11:42