Bill Gates x Nikhil Kamath Part 2 | People by WTF | Ep.8

Nikhil Kamath 0:00 [upbeat music] If I were to ask you to extrapolate, in the world of tomorrow, ten years from now, from a very capitalistic lens, is a huge population a boon or a bane? Hmm. [upbeat music] Can you sleep, Bill, if you drink coffee so late at night?

Bill Gates 1:01 It might delay my going to sleep a little bit-

Nikhil Kamath 1:04 Yeah.

Bill Gates 1:04 -but it'll keep me energized, so, uh... I have a long flight, so I get, uh, the sleep is always complicated.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12 You're always in a hurry when you're in India. It's so much nicer to spend time with you when you're not in India. Why is that?

Bill Gates 1:20 Um, well, I'll organize some of my trips where I take time off here. Uh, you know, next year we're talking about, that I'll go up to Assam, and they tell me that's pretty nice. So hopefully-

Nikhil Kamath 1:32 Mm

Bill Gates 1:32 ... I'll schedule a couple days, uh, for just pure relaxation. Uh, but when I'm working, you know, it's, it's great to see there's so many new innovators here. Uh, we did manage to pack the schedule. You know, there's a lot of ministries that we have partnerships with.

Nikhil Kamath 1:51 Yeah.

Bill Gates 1:51 I think I saw more ministers this time [chuckles] than ever before, but it was... They were all great meetings.

Nikhil Kamath 1:57 Right.

Bill Gates 1:58 It's been a fun trip. We did a thing with Sachin, I guess-

Nikhil Kamath 2:01 Yeah

Bill Gates 2:01 ... it's your production company or something-

Nikhil Kamath 2:02 Yeah

Bill Gates 2:03 ... that helped-

Nikhil Kamath 2:03 Yeah

Bill Gates 2:03 ... put together a very creative, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 2:06 So you played cricket. First time?

Bill Gates 2:07 Well, we, we were on a tennis court-

Nikhil Kamath 2:10 Ah

Bill Gates 2:10 ... and so we were hitting balls with a cricket bat and the tennis. We were kind of making fun of the-

Nikhil Kamath 2:15 Mm

Bill Gates 2:15 ... the, the two different sports. Uh-

Nikhil Kamath 2:17 Yeah.

Bill Gates 2:18 So that, that, that was relaxing.

Nikhil Kamath 2:20 Yeah. So

Nikhil Kamath 2:22 we met recently in Switzerland, and I asked you many things off camera. Uh, so I spent the last week reading Source Code.

Bill Gates 2:32 Oh, thanks!

Nikhil Kamath 2:33 Yeah. It took me a long time. I read much slower than you, I presume.

Bill Gates 2:37 [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 2:37 It took me fourteen, fifteen hours, so my time in the car, on my flight, in all my travel, and before going to bed, has been Source Code, so I know more about you now than I have ever.

Bill Gates 2:51 Fantastic.

Nikhil Kamath 2:52 [chuckles] So a lot of what is in the book, Bill... It's a great book. I, I would recommend everybody read it, but a lot of what is in the book is also something I might expect of Bill Gates. Like, my childhood was very different in the sense that when you used to sneak out of home when your parents went to bed, you went to a computer lab to work.

Bill Gates 3:21 [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 3:21 Right?

Bill Gates 3:21 Yes. That was... I, I was very lucky I got to use computers a lot, even in high school.

Nikhil Kamath 3:29 So what isn't in the book, Bill?

Bill Gates 3:31 You know, the book, I, I feel like I, you know, was pretty frank about, uh, you know, the challenges my parents felt raising me, and, uh, you know, how, uh, my- originally I was not a very good student. You know, at least I wasn't getting good grades, and then I eventually... It bugged me that people thought maybe I wasn't that smart, so I just said, "Okay, I guess I should get good grades." Uh, you know, I got in trouble at Harvard, uh, when I was doing, first using the computer, and-

Nikhil Kamath 4:07 But you got, you got into trouble almost for using the computer without the requisite permission from the administrator, but that's not really trouble, you know what I mean?

Bill Gates 4:18 [chuckles] I was... At the time, it felt like it might be, uh, you know, 'cause they, uh, they were acting pretty tough.

Nikhil Kamath 4:27 Mm.

Bill Gates 4:28 Uh, but, you know, I'm not somebody who had a traumatic childhood that explains my-

Nikhil Kamath 4:36 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 4:36 ... you know, whatever ener- energy or ambition I have. I had a great childhood. You know, I had some conflict with my mother, where she would try to get me to, you know, fit what she wanted, and, you know, in a sense, she succeeded in, in making me want to exceed even her expectations. So there's some energy that I got, you know, from trying to, uh, you know, get my freedom or im- impress her. Um, but... And I'd say the simple story is that it, you know, it's almost ideal. I wish everybody had the stability. Uh, you know, my dad was really, uh, in terms of his values, you know, he'd grown up in a very poor household. His father had only gone to sixth grade. Um, and, and yet he was very sophisticated, always calm about everything. It's nice having parents who are calm. Uh-

Nikhil Kamath 5:38 So I, I, rightly or wrongly, have made this presumption of late, that very successful, very many successful entrepreneurs, do not necessarily come from well-rounded families. Uh, when I read the book, I could, I could see that your mum, your mother, was projecting Kennedy's, almost the idealistic family. She was in charity, your dad was in law. Uh, also, very interestingly-... You speak about your mom a lot as when you were younger. Your dad shows up much later in life, at least in the writing, and your sisters even after that. Is that how you felt their importance at different points in your life? It was your mom when you were a kid, your dad when you were significantly older?

Bill Gates 6:31 Well, my dad worked very long hours, so he would leave even before we had breakfast. Most mornings, he'd head off to work. Uh, when he came home, that was when we had dinner. Uh, my parents were out, uh, socializing in ways that were helpful to my dad's career, three or four nights a week. And so my dad, um, until later, was, uh, wasn't interacting with me that much. I mean, he would- I'm sure he would talk to my mom about what was going on, but, you know, uh, the fact that he set a good example influenced me, and, um, you know, the values that he had. But no, my, my mom was the, the key relationship. My sisters, I could have talked more about them. Uh, you know, I have one sister who's a bit older, and the other one's nine years behind me. So when I'm a senior, you know, which is the last time I'm at the house, uh, you know, she's a third grader. So we had a fun relationship, but not, uh, you know, more than just playful, uh, until we're both adults.

Nikhil Kamath 7:47 So would I be wrong in my presumption that

Nikhil Kamath 7:52 success in the capitalistic world of today is somehow bred by one form of adversity or another in childhood?

Bill Gates 8:00 Well, I think if you look at the Steve Jobs story, you know, he's adopted-

Nikhil Kamath 8:04 Mm-hmm.

Bill Gates 8:05 ... uh, you know, his parents, uh, kept his sister-

Nikhil Kamath 8:09 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 8:10 ... and they didn't keep him, and so he ends up with a pretty negative view towards his, his fa- his, uh, biological, uh, father. You know, Elon Musk had a, a fairly, uh, complicated father, you know, who would, was apparently very tough on him. So often when you see people who are, you know, high achievers, there's some, you know, something they're trying to prove. In my case, you really don't have that. I mean, the only negative thing that happens to me in my childhood is one of my friends, uh, Kent Evans, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 8:50 Yeah

Bill Gates 8:50 ... died when I was 16, and he was 17.

Nikhil Kamath 8:53 Mm-hmm.

Bill Gates 8:54 But, you know, I was already, uh... You know, my energy and ambition, you know, had already been set, so I don't, you know, wouldn't say that was connected. So it is... I think some people are surprised, you know, where did I get this desire in my 20s to be, you know, compared to everybody else who was starting software companies. I mean, by my standards, they were quite lazy. Um...

Nikhil Kamath 9:22 Mm. Also, having known you a little bit and having read the book now,

Nikhil Kamath 9:28 this one quality that you have, where you're able to put your head down, focus, and cram many hours of work at one go, or be not cognizant to the things happening in the world around you- [chuckles] ... but focused on one thing, where does that come from? I know in the last part of your book, you spoke about how today you might be diagnosed as autistic, and is it that, or is it, is it some kind of drive which is coming from somewhere else?

Bill Gates 10:00 I think there's a, a strong genetic component to that ability to focus. Uh, you know, particularly as people get older, their willingness to be very confused and just live with their confusion, you know, and, and until they really figure it out, uh, they almost, you know, give yourself a hard time and, you know, think about, "Why can't I understand this?" Uh, you know, I think that's, that's something I was lucky, uh, from nature, you know. Um, my, my parents didn't push me, uh, to be that way, and it was there, you know, pretty early on. You know, even the thing where it was fascinating to me that my grandmother was so much better at cards than I was, and I had to think a long time to figure out, "Okay, she is running a, a, a state machine. She is remembering every card that goes by." And if you remember every card [chuckles] that goes by, okay, there is, uh, an impact on all these different card games, 'cause we played a lot-

Nikhil Kamath 11:20 Mm

Bill Gates 11:20 ... of different games. Um, and she would never, you know, kind of give it away. She sort of forced me to, to think it through on my own. So that's an early sign that, yeah, I, I can go off and kind of ignore, uh, uh, what's going on, and, you know, I'm very lucky, uh, even at, you know, this age, if somebody hands me a, uh, a new book about something, I'll, you know, shut the door, and four hours later, hopefully I've, I've, I've, I've been able to get through it.

Nikhil Kamath 11:58 Somebody really smart was telling me that to be a hero, you either need to be awe-inspiring or relatable. Do you think Silicon Valley or the tech moguls in the US are-... using vulnerability to transition from awe-inspiring, but in a condens- this might sound a little condescending, not that I mean it, robot-like behavior to more human-like personas. Like, if you look at Mark Zuckerberg with him, you know, wearing his new clothes, his chain, his watch, uh, is the world going that way, where you don't want that clean-cut, awe-inspiring hero anymore, you need something more relatable, and people are showcasing their vulnerabilities to meet that end?

Bill Gates 12:52 Well, I don't think... You know, I think Mark sincerely likes extreme sports. Uh, and, you know, he really does, you know, engage in that. I never found that, uh, all that attractive. So I think he's being genuine. Um, you know, he's a great family person. Um, you know, he's, he's, he's still pretty young. He just turned 40.

Nikhil Kamath 13:24 Mm-hmm.

Bill Gates 13:24 Which nowadays I have to consider that-

Nikhil Kamath 13:26 [chuckles]

Bill Gates 13:26 ... uh, a young person. You know, I'm- I, I think the, the people who get to know you are the people, either your family or the people who work with you very closely. And, you know, take, for example, Steve Jobs, he was tough on himself. Uh, he did have the most unbelievable sense of people, just in an intuitive way, and of, of good design. You know, so his skills and mine don't even overlap that much. He was not an engineer, and I'm not a design person. I wish-

Nikhil Kamath 14:02 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 14:02 ... I was a design person, and I don't know [chuckles] if he wished he was an engineer.

Nikhil Kamath 14:07 [chuckles]

Bill Gates 14:07 He was good at picking-

Nikhil Kamath 14:08 Yeah

Bill Gates 14:08 ... engineers, and so Apple, uh, you know, really distinguished itself. But it wasn't, it wasn't an act. Um, he, he was a natural. Uh, I had to learn how to give speeches and, uh, all that. And, you know, even at my best, I'm not, uh, as much of a speech giver as he was. Um, so he's pretty singular, I would say. Um, you know, maybe Elon in his, in a different way is-

Nikhil Kamath 14:39 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 14:39 ... is kind of singular. I think of Mark as a pretty normal person, actually. Uh, you know, he's got a great wife, you know, very serious about his kids.

Nikhil Kamath 14:49 You just said that

Nikhil Kamath 14:50 Steve Jobs was maybe too hard on himself. Are you hard on yourself, Bill? Why are you running around so much, meeting all the politicians and everything?

Bill Gates 15:00 No, I think if you want to, you know, work hard and not fool yourself, you better be pretty hard on yourself. Uh, and Steve was, uh, tough on himself. And it makes you, at first, maybe not a very good manager because you tend to manage people like you manage yourself, where you're just so tough on [chuckles] them. And, you know, for me, that meant that in my early days, I could get a lot out of people who were like me.

Nikhil Kamath 15:28 Mm-hmm.

Bill Gates 15:29 And, you know, so I probably missed some people who were very different than me that could have been, you know, part of the company. We were fairly homogeneous, very engineering-oriented group, and it took a while before I realized, okay, somebody who's a good salesperson or a good manager, you know, may not be good at the way I think of IQ. IQ is much more varied. Talent is more varied than I realized. You know, I sort of thought, well, if you can do math, you can do anything, and if you can't do math, then [chuckles] you can't do anything.

Nikhil Kamath 16:00 Mm-hmm.

Bill Gates 16:00 That's how simple-

Nikhil Kamath 16:02 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 16:02 ... uh, that initial thing was. So I was... You know, it took me a lot of time, uh, to develop as a manager. You know, I think as I moved to the foundation, it was very important that I blend in people who like to work in the field in Africa with great scientists, with great people who worked with government. So I, you know, I was able to take the mistakes I'd made [chuckles] and learnings from Microsoft and, um, bring that to the foundation. But, you know, the why I, I chose, uh, to work so hard in my 20s, I mean, I, I loved the work-

Nikhil Kamath 16:45 I think 20s I get, Bill. The question is today.

Bill Gates 16:48 Oh, today, yeah, well, it's optional. Um, it is a lot of fun. I get to work with smart people. I'm learning all the time.

Nikhil Kamath 16:58 Mm-hmm.

Bill Gates 16:59 I, you know, I get to travel the world. The world is-

Nikhil Kamath 17:02 Haven't you traveled the world already?

Bill Gates 17:04 You know, in my Microsoft work, I went to Africa. I went to South Africa once and Egypt once, and so basically-

Nikhil Kamath 17:13 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 17:13 ... you know, they don't buy much software in Africa. They buy some, but [chuckles] it's not-

Nikhil Kamath 17:18 Mm.

Bill Gates 17:19 Now, you know, Africa's, you know, huge, uh, in, in what I do. So I've, I've been exposed to different parts, so, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 17:29 If-

Bill Gates 17:29 ... I certainly got to meet a lot of people that I'd never met-

Nikhil Kamath 17:32 Yeah

Bill Gates 17:32 ... at Microsoft.

Bill Gates 17:33 [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 17:33 Yeah. If I were to ask you to extrapolate with no filters, since you know more about AI than I will ever, uh, in the world of tomorrow, 10 years from now, from a very capitalistic lens, is a huge population a boon or a bane?

Bill Gates 17:55 The... Let's say 20 years from now, AI will have changed things enough that, you know, the just this pure capitalistic framework probably won't explain much. Because as AIs, both as sort of white-collar type work and as blue-collar workers, the robots will get good hands and are able to do-... the physical things that, that humans do, say, working in a factory or construction, or, you know, going cleaning a, a hotel room, uh, which, you know, the hands have to be awfully good, uh, to do those things. We'll, we'll achieve that-

Nikhil Kamath 18:42 Mm.

Bill Gates 18:43 -and we'll have a lot of the making the goods and services, which is always, we've always had a shortage, a shortage of doctors, of teachers, of people to work in the factories. Those shortages won't exist, and so it's, it's a pretty profound change that will free up a lot of time. Y- you know, you can retire early, you can work shorter work weeks, and it's gonna require almost a philosophical rethink about, okay, how should time be spent? Because we don't need it to make enough food and make enough widgets and, uh, you know, do enough medical diagnosis. We will have created, you know, free intelligence. You know, in my day, it was about computing was expensive, it became free. Now, it's intelligence, like a doctor's intelligence, is scarce. You know, India has more doctors than Africa, but still not nearly as many as it should. But AI, uh, will come in and provide, you know, medical, uh, IQ, and there won't be a shortage. Uh, that's... A- and it's hard for those of us, you know, in my case, spending almost 70 years, and a year in a world of shortage, to even adjust my mind. Because, you know, what are markets about? Markets are about scarce resources-

Nikhil Kamath 20:09 Yeah

Bill Gates 20:09 ... and the price is okay. You know, you get the employee because you're willing to pay, pay them more. And, um, so, you know, I find myself trying to understand that future world, but, uh, it hasn't come into focus for me, and I, I, I enjoy engaging experts-

Nikhil Kamath 20:32 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 20:32 ... about, okay, what does the economy look like, and, and how will we choose to use the, the freedom that will come? And, you know, even if I'm wrong, say it's 30 years, that's not a very long time.

Nikhil Kamath 20:45 Yeah.

Bill Gates 20:45 I mean, my, uh, kids, and certainly my grandkids-

Nikhil Kamath 20:49 Yeah

Bill Gates 20:49 ... uh, a lot of their life will be in that, that very changed world.

Nikhil Kamath 20:54 This economist,

Nikhil Kamath 20:55 John Maynard Keynes, uh, I think the American model is largely Keynesian, where they print money, the antithesis to Hayek, almost. He said this many decades ago, that the real question is, what will the world do if one did not have to work? If you had to, like, extrapolate one statement in 30, 40, 50, how many ev- ever years, what do we do if we don't have to work?

Bill Gates 21:22 I don't have to work.

Nikhil Kamath 21:23 Yeah.

Bill Gates 21:24 Uh, and so [chuckles] -

Nikhil Kamath 21:25 Yeah. [chuckles]

Bill Gates 21:25 ... uh, I, I choose to work.

Nikhil Kamath 21:28 Yeah. Because?

Bill Gates 21:29 Uh, yeah, because it's fun. You know, I take more vacation than I did when I was young, but, uh, it's still, you know, basically full, full-time work. And but it's... If you had that your whole life, it's different than being able to retire early. I mean, at least we, you know, have a period of working, and then, you know, if you said everybody could retire at, at 40, you know, how radical is that? Uh, maybe not, not that radical. Um, but if you said you never need to work-

Nikhil Kamath 22:07 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 22:08 ... at least to me, I have a, "What?" You know, that, that is so-

Nikhil Kamath 22:13 Yeah

Bill Gates 22:13 ... different.

Nikhil Kamath 22:14 I think another very interesting question is, if we all don't work, do we get the same? Humans inherently are competitive with their peer groups, I think. So if I don't work, say, we are born tomorrow, me, you, him, him, we all don't work, but we are bestow- bestowed upon with the same resources and same social position. Will that work for us? Will one-

Bill Gates 22:39 No, I, I... Y- your, your point's a good one. We want to differentiate.

Nikhil Kamath 22:46 Yeah.

Bill Gates 22:46 Uh, you know, whether it's for our own ego or to be attractive or- [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 22:53 Mm.

Bill Gates 22:53 Uh, it's so we- we are so adapted to this world of shortage-

Nikhil Kamath 23:00 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 23:01 ... uh, that, you know, maybe, you know, we'll create competitions and, you know, creativity or, you know-

Nikhil Kamath 23:12 Yeah

Bill Gates 23:12 ... maybe we'll take some part of human activity. I mean, in extreme cases, we're not gonna have robots play cricket, you know?

Nikhil Kamath 23:20 Yeah.

Bill Gates 23:20 That's boring. We'll let-

Nikhil Kamath 23:22 Yeah

Bill Gates 23:22 ... we'll reserve that just for the humans.

Nikhil Kamath 23:24 Yeah.

Bill Gates 23:24 Even if the robots could be, you know, way, way better-

Nikhil Kamath 23:28 Yeah

Bill Gates 23:28 ... that's, that's not interesting. And so what activities might a country say, "No, we're reserving this," you know, "Nurses are gonna be humans-

Nikhil Kamath 23:41 Mm

Bill Gates 23:41 ... or, uh, you know, psychiatrists, uh, you know, are... We're gonna, you know, decide that the, the..." And so we might artificially-

Nikhil Kamath 23:53 Mm

Bill Gates 23:53 ... uh, ignore the fact that the, the machines can, uh, can substitute for some of that.

Nikhil Kamath 24:02 Mm.

Bill Gates 24:04 It's, it'll really, you know, get down to the core of, of human instinct.

Nikhil Kamath 24:09 Yeah. We will figure out a hierarchy. Might, may not be the current one, but another way to segregate ourselves.

Bill Gates 24:15 Yes, the idea of, you know, pure communism, that everybody-

Nikhil Kamath 24:18 Mm

Bill Gates 24:19 ... you know, is, is totally the same, that's a pretty unnatural-

Nikhil Kamath 24:23 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 24:23 ... behavior for, for humans.

Nikhil Kamath 24:26 ... needs a lot of trust of a model like that to work, and I think as the group gets larger, trust is often not there inherently.

Nikhil Kamath 24:35 You've been the richest man in the world for a very long time, Bill. You've probably had access to everybody for a long, long time. I'm talking world leaders, philosophers, people at the cutting edge of everything. What do you know that I, I don't? Like, one thing. What have you learnt by having lived in your shoes?

Bill Gates 24:58 You know, I know a lot about science. [chuckles] Uh, you know, I've seen a lot of successful people-

Nikhil Kamath 25:04 Mm-hmm.

Bill Gates 25:05 -um, and, you know, learned the habits, um, that they have. I do think you develop, um, instincts about, you know, who to hire, who to partner with-

Nikhil Kamath 25:19 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 25:19 ... just from-

Nikhil Kamath 25:21 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 25:21 ... mistakes and, uh, you know, pattern matching. You know, and I've, I've been super lucky. People like Warren Buffett-

Nikhil Kamath 25:28 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 25:28 ... who comes from a very different expertise than mine, you know, he and I have bonded over, you know, sharing ideas and kind of a common view of how things work in the world. And he, he is, on a lot of things, just his wisdom has, has been a huge help to me.

Nikhil Kamath 25:49 Mm-hmm.

Bill Gates 25:50 Um-

Nikhil Kamath 25:50 Not so much about business, but more about life.

Bill Gates 25:53 Well, it's certainly... You know, the decisions you make about your personal life probably affect your happiness. Uh, you know, I know super successful-

Nikhil Kamath 26:03 Mm

Bill Gates 26:04 ... people who aren't that happy-

Nikhil Kamath 26:06 Mm

Bill Gates 26:06 ... uh, and, you know, didn't apply their, uh... Weren't able to map their incredible intelligence onto, uh, having a great, uh, relationship with their kids or, uh, you know, their extended family. So it is, human capability is, is very strange, that you can't, uh... You know, like my friend, Paul Allen, um, you know, he was wonderful. He was key-

Nikhil Kamath 26:43 Mm

Bill Gates 26:43 ... to the success of Microsoft, but he actually didn't end up enjoying himself.

Nikhil Kamath 26:48 Mm-hmm.

Bill Gates 26:49 Um, you know, he felt like maybe people were gonna take advantage of him, and that, that's, you know-

Nikhil Kamath 26:55 Mm

Bill Gates 26:55 ... this is a guy who had everything-

Nikhil Kamath 26:58 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 26:59 ... and yet it didn't, didn't really create, uh, comfort or, uh, the happiness he, he deserved.

Nikhil Kamath 27:09 When people ask me what drives me, uh, I mean, I'm a, m- I'm much less wise, experienced, all of those things, but in my own little bubble, some people do ask me-

Bill Gates 27:21 Sure

Nikhil Kamath 27:21 ... what drives me. I used to stupidly say, whenever someone asked me how you got lucky or how you did well in life, my go-to answer used to be, "Luck," which was never the truth, because I think we all have... All humans, I think, have a inflated sense of self, subconsciously, deep, deep down. Like, if I were to put 100 people in a room and ask, "How many of you are smarter than the majority?" I w- I would presume 99% or 89%- [chuckles]

Bill Gates 27:53 [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 27:53 ... of the room say yes. Maybe that's a slight exaggeration, but I think the point holds. But when I were to think about what drives me deeply, in the beginning, I think it was just money. I feel like I didn't have money. I wanted money, because my conditioning, my years growing up, looking at the people around me with money, they looked happy. I think money transitioned into relatively more power, jealousy, insecurity, seeking validation, different drivers for different parts of my life, and today I'm flirting with this notion, like, I'm part of your pledge, and I, I spend time with you every year on the offsite. And I don't know if you remember, but last year I was asking these same questions because I genuinely do not know the answer. At times, I might feel altruistic. At times, I might feel like there is no point to more. But at other times, I will go back to the very relative nature of things, and competition kicks in, and I want more.

Nikhil Kamath 29:05 Uh, what I wanted from our conversation today, it's more a question for me than it is for other people, is this concept of motivational pluralism, in a way, where I can be motivated by different things at different points of time. I might also want to make money, but I might also want to give away money. I think you're at the forefront of that. Would you like to, like, share your thoughts on that? How does it make sense to want to make money while you want to also give away money?

Bill Gates 29:36 Well, even giving away money can be very egotistical. There's certainly-

Nikhil Kamath 29:42 Yeah

Bill Gates 29:43 ... ego involved.

Nikhil Kamath 29:44 There is a high-

Bill Gates 29:44 I mean, you know, Ted Turner, uh, used to say that, uh, the Forbes list was, which ranks people-

Nikhil Kamath 29:52 Yeah

Bill Gates 29:52 ... on their wealth, was a bad thing-

Nikhil Kamath 29:54 Mm

Bill Gates 29:54 ... because people would hesitate to give away [chuckles] money-

Nikhil Kamath 29:57 Mm

Bill Gates 29:57 ... 'cause they wouldn't, uh, achieve some rank on the, on the Forbes list.

Nikhil Kamath 30:02 Mm-hmm.

Bill Gates 30:03 And I think he had a, had a valid point there. You can never do anything that's totally pure.

Nikhil Kamath 30:09 Mm-hmm.

Bill Gates 30:10 Um, because if it's really deeply moral, then a little bit, you think, "Oh, people will praise that."

Nikhil Kamath 30:18 Yeah, yeah.

Bill Gates 30:18 And so, you know, is it ego or not? Um, you know, in the end, the, the work, you know, like the work we've done with vaccines-

Nikhil Kamath 30:30 Yeah

Bill Gates 30:32 ... you know, whether that was my ego [chuckles] or not, it-

Nikhil Kamath 30:34 Yeah.

Bill Gates 30:35 You know, it's a, it's a real thing-

Nikhil Kamath 30:37 Yeah

Bill Gates 30:37 ... that happened. Um, you know, I, I remember when I left Microsoft thinking, "Gosh, if it gets messed up, it's gonna screw up my mind. Should I go back or not go back?" And I'm so lucky that, you know-

Nikhil Kamath 30:51 Mm

Bill Gates 30:51 ... Steve did a very good job, and now Satya's doing, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 30:55 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 30:55 ... a very good job, so I haven't had to worry about that. It also helped that it made my Microsoft stock, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 31:01 Yeah

Bill Gates 31:01 ... valuable enough that even though I've given away, uh, a, a lot, you know, I still, uh... You know, I'm not nearly as, as rich as, as some, but I'm in the top 20. Um, and that's great. You know, I'm- over the next 20 years, I'll, I'll be able to give a lot away. But even that's not- doesn't get you out of the why the, why do I-

Nikhil Kamath 31:30 Yeah

Bill Gates 31:30 ... I do it? Um-

Nikhil Kamath 31:31 Yeah. I find, like, I don't feel altruistic. I feel like even when you quietly do something good, in terms of giving away money, which does something for someone, it is almost more intoxicating than a capitalistic pursuit, which is making money. So they're both highs. Now, if I don't know which high is more appealing to me at which-

Bill Gates 31:55 [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 31:55 ... point of time, how do you switch between the two?

Bill Gates 32:00 You know, philanthropy isn't quite as competitive. I mean, you know, creating a company, you know that, uh, it's pretty stark because, you know, there might be some category that if you get scale, you know, the other people just fall by the wayside. You know, it's not like you end up splitting it. It's, you know... When we did Microsoft Office-

Nikhil Kamath 32:28 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 32:29 ... there were quite a few companies [chuckles] that were in that space, that literally we... they went away. Uh, and, you know, we, we competed with Google over the mobile phone operating system, and we fell behind, and, you know, today-

Nikhil Kamath 32:47 Yeah

Bill Gates 32:47 ... nobody remembers there was a, a Windows mobile thing. It's just Android for non-Apple phones, it's basically-

Nikhil Kamath 32:55 Mm-hmm

Bill Gates 32:55 ... all Android. That was a winner-take-all thing. And so when you get into one of those, you actually activate not only ego, but a little bit of fear.

Nikhil Kamath 33:04 Mm.

Bill Gates 33:05 Uh, and, you know, certainly in my 20s and 30s, I- that was part of it, which is, "Wow, you know, I think I'm pretty good at this-"

Nikhil Kamath 33:17 Mm.

Bill Gates 33:17 "... but, you know, have I just made that up? Uh, am I really good? Will I be re- revealed that I, you know, didn't do a good job?" Uh, I've gotten past that now. I don't think I'm motivated [chuckles] by-

Nikhil Kamath 33:33 Yeah

Bill Gates 33:33 ... uh, a, a fear. But it's- it was fascinating to me that, you know, I would- when we would go on company retreats for Microsoft, it would bother me that the other leaders didn't think our survival was at risk. I was always coming up with, "No, we have to worry about this. We have to worry about this," because it was my whole life. And I have to say, leaving, um, and g- moving to the foundation made my life a little bit more sane, because I wasn't always conjuring up the, "Okay, it could, [chuckles] you know, all-

Nikhil Kamath 34:14 Mm

Bill Gates 34:14 ... uh, you know, completely blow up." And so, you know, I engaged every emotion to drive myself in my 20s.

Nikhil Kamath 34:25 So I was having lunch with my team today, Bill. They're all like... A bunch of them are 21, 23-

Bill Gates 34:31 Wow

Nikhil Kamath 34:32 ... 24. And even at 38, I'm so disconnected with how they think, their, their version of reality, in a way. Whenever we've- whenever I've seen you for a meal, lunch, dinner, be it whatever, there's always wine. They say that people are like the vintage of wine from the year that they're born in. So let's say you were born in year X, and you're from that vintage, what assumption of the world today, or the youth of the world today, do you think that you have, which is not fully true, and how do you look at the world today, but it doesn't resonate for the youth of today?

Bill Gates 35:16 Yeah, well, it's nice to have your kids give you a hard time, 'cause you get a little bit of-

Nikhil Kamath 35:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Bill Gates 35:22 ... uh, realizing, "Wow, uh, there's a different way of looking at things." You know, s- some things, like I'm very email-centric, which my, my youngest daughter thinks is so laughable. Uh, and, you know, when she sends me a text, I don't respond in five minutes, and she's like: "What's wrong with you, uh, Dad?" And I, I'm not gonna change it. I'm sorry. I, I'm, I'm kind of stuck in my, uh, email-centric ways. Uh, you know, so I'll, I'll just have to live with that. Um, you know, I, I... You know, I was very lucky. The insight that computing would become free, you know, for my generation, there were very few people who saw that.

Nikhil Kamath 36:09 Mm-hmm.

Bill Gates 36:09 Uh, and so I, you know, I had an advantage because that implied a lot of things that, that Microsoft could get out in, in front of. Now, this, this current revolution, in a way, everybody kind of sees it coming. Uh, it's almost too wild to be true.

Nikhil Kamath 36:29 Mm.

Bill Gates 36:29 But yes, it's, it's not like there's only a small community-... sees AI coming. And I'm, I'm not sure, do the young people have an anticipation of what it's gonna be like better? Um, I hope so, because they're the [chuckles] ones who, you know, be in charge and, and, and have to deal with it. I think it's a rate of change that's greater than most, most periods of history. You know, when we made in the US, you know, when we went from 50% farmers to 2% farmers, it- you could still farm your whole generation. It was your children-

Nikhil Kamath 37:10 Mm

Bill Gates 37:10 ... that stopped being farmers. You know, because it happened over a 60-year period, we go from a very high percentage down. Here, you know, even within a generation, uh, you know, certain skills are, aren't gonna be as, as needed. So I think that's a pretty wild thing, uh, to be, to be changing things, you know? And, and you're- it's nice to surround your peop- yourself with, with young people, uh, you know, and have their insights. Of course, your customers aren't all young, so you have to-

Nikhil Kamath 37:49 Yeah

Bill Gates 37:49 ... you know, stay in touch-

Nikhil Kamath 37:51 Yeah

Bill Gates 37:51 ... with what they're thinking as well.

Nikhil Kamath 37:54 If I may pay you a compliment, Bill, after having spent time with you for a few years, I feel like you care lesser today about what people think about you, and that is making you increasingly more appealing to the youth.

Bill Gates 38:14 Hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 38:14 And I think that comes out in your book as well.

Bill Gates 38:17 No, I mean, if anybody can afford to not, [chuckles] you know, think about... You know, there are people who like me more than there should, there are people who hate me more than they should. [chuckles] I mean, it's, you know, a wild mix, you know, including crazy conspiracies.

Nikhil Kamath 38:33 Yeah.

Bill Gates 38:33 Uh, and so I do think with age, your ego needs go down a bit. Um, your desire to help others succeed versus just yourself, uh, you know, you get a little bit, they call it gener- more generative and, uh, sharing advice. Um, having kids helps with that a lot. And, um, you know, so I should have the luxury of not, [chuckles] uh-

Nikhil Kamath 39:06 Yeah

Bill Gates 39:06 ... worrying about these things, you know?

Nikhil Kamath 39:08 Ironically, I think that is the definition of cool for the youth today, not caring.

Bill Gates 39:13 [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 39:15 Thank you, Bill. Thank you for doing this, and I think I'm seeing you next in June.

Bill Gates 39:18 No, great to see you, and uh-

Nikhil Kamath 39:20 Yeah.

Bill Gates 39:20 Yeah, so you're coming to the Giving Pledge?

Nikhil Kamath 39:21 Yeah. Yeah.

Bill Gates 39:21 Oh, perfect.

Nikhil Kamath 39:22 Yeah.

Bill Gates 39:23 Uh, no, it's always fun to see you there, and-

Nikhil Kamath 39:25 Yeah

Bill Gates 39:25 ... uh, thanks, this was a blast.

Nikhil Kamath 39:28 Thank you. [chuckles] [upbeat music] I actually want to ask you some advice. So I'm feeling like I'm losing out on the whole AI world. So I want to go take a job somewhere in the US or an internship, unpaid one.

Bill Gates 39:42 Oh, wow.

Nikhil Kamath 39:42 Where would you suggest? How do I go about being in the forefront of that world, just in terms of learning the implications, not so much the development of it?

Bill Gates 39:52 You know, with your business experience, maybe the OpenAI guys would have some role where you would be super valuable to them, that you'd be getting that exposure. I mean, that's the most intense-

Nikhil Kamath 40:04 Yeah.

Bill Gates 40:05 Those guys, [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 40:06 Yeah.

Bill Gates 40:06 It's wild.

Nikhil Kamath 40:07 Yeah.

Bill Gates 40:07 Uh, and they're, they're very good guys.

Nikhil Kamath 40:09 Yeah.

Bill Gates 40:10 Boy, are they surfing-

Nikhil Kamath 40:11 Yeah

Bill Gates 40:12 ... surfing the wave. Who's WTF? [beep] [laughing]