Bill Gates x Nikhil Kamath Part 2 | People by WTF | Ep.8

1. 0:00 – 1:12

   Introduction

   1. NKNikhil Kamath0:00

      [upbeat music] If I were to ask you to extrapolate, in the world of tomorrow, ten years from now, from a very capitalistic lens, is a huge population a boon or a bane? Hmm. [upbeat music] Can you sleep, Bill, if you drink coffee so late at night?

   2. BGBill Gates1:01

      It might delay my going to sleep a little bit-

   3. NKNikhil Kamath1:04

      Yeah.

   4. BGBill Gates1:04

      -but it'll keep me energized, so, uh... I have a long flight, so I get, uh, the sleep is always complicated.

2. 1:12 – 2:22

   Bill’s frequent visits to India

   1. NKNikhil Kamath1:12

      You're always in a hurry when you're in India. It's so much nicer to spend time with you when you're not in India. Why is that?

   2. BGBill Gates1:20

      Um, well, I'll organize some of my trips where I take time off here. Uh, you know, next year we're talking about, that I'll go up to Assam, and they tell me that's pretty nice. So hopefully-

   3. NKNikhil Kamath1:32

      Mm

   4. BGBill Gates1:32

      ... I'll schedule a couple days, uh, for just pure relaxation. Uh, but when I'm working, you know, it's, it's great to see there's so many new innovators here. Uh, we did manage to pack the schedule. You know, there's a lot of ministries that we have partnerships with.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath1:51

      Yeah.

   6. BGBill Gates1:51

      I think I saw more ministers this time [chuckles] than ever before, but it was... They were all great meetings.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath1:57

      Right.

   8. BGBill Gates1:58

      It's been a fun trip. We did a thing with Sachin, I guess-

   9. NKNikhil Kamath2:01

      Yeah

   10. BGBill Gates2:01

       ... it's your production company or something-

   11. NKNikhil Kamath2:02

       Yeah

   12. BGBill Gates2:03

       ... that helped-

   13. NKNikhil Kamath2:03

       Yeah

   14. BGBill Gates2:03

       ... put together a very creative, uh-

   15. NKNikhil Kamath2:06

       So you played cricket. First time?

   16. BGBill Gates2:07

       Well, we, we were on a tennis court-

   17. NKNikhil Kamath2:10

       Ah

   18. BGBill Gates2:10

       ... and so we were hitting balls with a cricket bat and the tennis. We were kind of making fun of the-

   19. NKNikhil Kamath2:15

       Mm

   20. BGBill Gates2:15

       ... the, the two different sports. Uh-

   21. NKNikhil Kamath2:17

       Yeah.

   22. BGBill Gates2:18

       So that, that, that was relaxing.

   23. NKNikhil Kamath2:20

       Yeah. So

3. 2:22 – 7:51

   Bill’s memoir Source Code, childhood and family dynamics

   1. NKNikhil Kamath2:22

      we met recently in Switzerland, and I asked you many things off camera. Uh, so I spent the last week reading Source Code.

   2. BGBill Gates2:32

      Oh, thanks!

   3. NKNikhil Kamath2:33

      Yeah. It took me a long time. I read much slower than you, I presume.

   4. BGBill Gates2:37

      [chuckles]

   5. NKNikhil Kamath2:37

      It took me fourteen, fifteen hours, so my time in the car, on my flight, in all my travel, and before going to bed, has been Source Code, so I know more about you now than I have ever.

   6. BGBill Gates2:51

      Fantastic.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath2:52

      [chuckles] So a lot of what is in the book, Bill... It's a great book. I, I would recommend everybody read it, but a lot of what is in the book is also something I might expect of Bill Gates. Like, my childhood was very different in the sense that when you used to sneak out of home when your parents went to bed, you went to a computer lab to work.

   8. BGBill Gates3:21

      [chuckles]

   9. NKNikhil Kamath3:21

      Right?

   10. BGBill Gates3:21

       Yes. That was... I, I was very lucky I got to use computers a lot, even in high school.

   11. NKNikhil Kamath3:29

       So what isn't in the book, Bill?

   12. BGBill Gates3:31

       You know, the book, I, I feel like I, you know, was pretty frank about, uh, you know, the challenges my parents felt raising me, and, uh, you know, how, uh, my- originally I was not a very good student. You know, at least I wasn't getting good grades, and then I eventually... It bugged me that people thought maybe I wasn't that smart, so I just said, "Okay, I guess I should get good grades." Uh, you know, I got in trouble at Harvard, uh, when I was doing, first using the computer, and-

   13. NKNikhil Kamath4:07

       But you got, you got into trouble almost for using the computer without the requisite permission from the administrator, but that's not really trouble, you know what I mean?

   14. BGBill Gates4:18

       [chuckles] I was... At the time, it felt like it might be, uh, you know, 'cause they, uh, they were acting pretty tough.

   15. NKNikhil Kamath4:27

       Mm.

   16. BGBill Gates4:28

       Uh, but, you know, I'm not somebody who had a traumatic childhood that explains my-

   17. NKNikhil Kamath4:36

       Mm-hmm

   18. BGBill Gates4:36

       ... you know, whatever ener- energy or ambition I have. I had a great childhood. You know, I had some conflict with my mother, where she would try to get me to, you know, fit what she wanted, and, you know, in a sense, she succeeded in, in making me want to exceed even her expectations. So there's some energy that I got, you know, from trying to, uh, you know, get my freedom or im- impress her. Um, but... And I'd say the simple story is that it, you know, it's almost ideal. I wish everybody had the stability. Uh, you know, my dad was really, uh, in terms of his values, you know, he'd grown up in a very poor household. His father had only gone to sixth grade. Um, and, and yet he was very sophisticated, always calm about everything. It's nice having parents who are calm. Uh-

   19. NKNikhil Kamath5:38

       So I, I, rightly or wrongly, have made this presumption of late, that very successful, very many successful entrepreneurs, do not necessarily come from well-rounded families. Uh, when I read the book, I could, I could see that your mum, your mother, was projecting Kennedy's, almost the idealistic family. She was in charity, your dad was in law. Uh, also, very interestingly-... You speak about your mom a lot as when you were younger. Your dad shows up much later in life, at least in the writing, and your sisters even after that. Is that how you felt their importance at different points in your life? It was your mom when you were a kid, your dad when you were significantly older?

   20. BGBill Gates6:31

       Well, my dad worked very long hours, so he would leave even before we had breakfast. Most mornings, he'd head off to work. Uh, when he came home, that was when we had dinner. Uh, my parents were out, uh, socializing in ways that were helpful to my dad's career, three or four nights a week. And so my dad, um, until later, was, uh, wasn't interacting with me that much. I mean, he would- I'm sure he would talk to my mom about what was going on, but, you know, uh, the fact that he set a good example influenced me, and, um, you know, the values that he had. But no, my, my mom was the, the key relationship. My sisters, I could have talked more about them. Uh, you know, I have one sister who's a bit older, and the other one's nine years behind me. So when I'm a senior, you know, which is the last time I'm at the house, uh, you know, she's a third grader. So we had a fun relationship, but not, uh, you know, more than just playful, uh, until we're both adults.

   21. NKNikhil Kamath7:47

       So would I be wrong in my presumption that

4. 7:51 – 9:28

   Success in today’s capitalistic world

   1. NKNikhil Kamath7:52

      success in the capitalistic world of today is somehow bred by one form of adversity or another in childhood?

   2. BGBill Gates8:00

      Well, I think if you look at the Steve Jobs story, you know, he's adopted-

   3. NKNikhil Kamath8:04

      Mm-hmm.

   4. BGBill Gates8:05

      ... uh, you know, his parents, uh, kept his sister-

   5. NKNikhil Kamath8:09

      Mm-hmm

   6. BGBill Gates8:10

      ... and they didn't keep him, and so he ends up with a pretty negative view towards his, his fa- his, uh, biological, uh, father. You know, Elon Musk had a, a fairly, uh, complicated father, you know, who would, was apparently very tough on him. So often when you see people who are, you know, high achievers, there's some, you know, something they're trying to prove. In my case, you really don't have that. I mean, the only negative thing that happens to me in my childhood is one of my friends, uh, Kent Evans, uh-

   7. NKNikhil Kamath8:50

      Yeah

   8. BGBill Gates8:50

      ... died when I was 16, and he was 17.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath8:53

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BGBill Gates8:54

       But, you know, I was already, uh... You know, my energy and ambition, you know, had already been set, so I don't, you know, wouldn't say that was connected. So it is... I think some people are surprised, you know, where did I get this desire in my 20s to be, you know, compared to everybody else who was starting software companies. I mean, by my standards, they were quite lazy. Um...

   11. NKNikhil Kamath9:22

       Mm. Also, having known you a little bit and having read the book now,

5. 9:28 – 11:58

   What's the secret to Bill’s focus?

   1. NKNikhil Kamath9:28

      this one quality that you have, where you're able to put your head down, focus, and cram many hours of work at one go, or be not cognizant to the things happening in the world around you- [chuckles] ... but focused on one thing, where does that come from? I know in the last part of your book, you spoke about how today you might be diagnosed as autistic, and is it that, or is it, is it some kind of drive which is coming from somewhere else?

   2. BGBill Gates10:00

      I think there's a, a strong genetic component to that ability to focus. Uh, you know, particularly as people get older, their willingness to be very confused and just live with their confusion, you know, and, and until they really figure it out, uh, they almost, you know, give yourself a hard time and, you know, think about, "Why can't I understand this?" Uh, you know, I think that's, that's something I was lucky, uh, from nature, you know. Um, my, my parents didn't push me, uh, to be that way, and it was there, you know, pretty early on. You know, even the thing where it was fascinating to me that my grandmother was so much better at cards than I was, and I had to think a long time to figure out, "Okay, she is running a, a, a state machine. She is remembering every card that goes by." And if you remember every card [chuckles] that goes by, okay, there is, uh, an impact on all these different card games, 'cause we played a lot-

   3. NKNikhil Kamath11:20

      Mm

   4. BGBill Gates11:20

      ... of different games. Um, and she would never, you know, kind of give it away. She sort of forced me to, to think it through on my own. So that's an early sign that, yeah, I, I can go off and kind of ignore, uh, uh, what's going on, and, you know, I'm very lucky, uh, even at, you know, this age, if somebody hands me a, uh, a new book about something, I'll, you know, shut the door, and four hours later, hopefully I've, I've, I've, I've been able to get through it.

6. 11:58 – 14:50

   Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs

   1. NKNikhil Kamath11:58

      Somebody really smart was telling me that to be a hero, you either need to be awe-inspiring or relatable. Do you think Silicon Valley or the tech moguls in the US are-... using vulnerability to transition from awe-inspiring, but in a condens- this might sound a little condescending, not that I mean it, robot-like behavior to more human-like personas. Like, if you look at Mark Zuckerberg with him, you know, wearing his new clothes, his chain, his watch, uh, is the world going that way, where you don't want that clean-cut, awe-inspiring hero anymore, you need something more relatable, and people are showcasing their vulnerabilities to meet that end?

   2. BGBill Gates12:52

      Well, I don't think... You know, I think Mark sincerely likes extreme sports. Uh, and, you know, he really does, you know, engage in that. I never found that, uh, all that attractive. So I think he's being genuine. Um, you know, he's a great family person. Um, you know, he's, he's, he's still pretty young. He just turned 40.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath13:24

      Mm-hmm.

   4. BGBill Gates13:24

      Which nowadays I have to consider that-

   5. NKNikhil Kamath13:26

      [chuckles]

   6. BGBill Gates13:26

      ... uh, a young person. You know, I'm- I, I think the, the people who get to know you are the people, either your family or the people who work with you very closely. And, you know, take, for example, Steve Jobs, he was tough on himself. Uh, he did have the most unbelievable sense of people, just in an intuitive way, and of, of good design. You know, so his skills and mine don't even overlap that much. He was not an engineer, and I'm not a design person. I wish-

   7. NKNikhil Kamath14:02

      Mm-hmm

   8. BGBill Gates14:02

      ... I was a design person, and I don't know [chuckles] if he wished he was an engineer.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath14:07

      [chuckles]

   10. BGBill Gates14:07

       He was good at picking-

   11. NKNikhil Kamath14:08

       Yeah

   12. BGBill Gates14:08

       ... engineers, and so Apple, uh, you know, really distinguished itself. But it wasn't, it wasn't an act. Um, he, he was a natural. Uh, I had to learn how to give speeches and, uh, all that. And, you know, even at my best, I'm not, uh, as much of a speech giver as he was. Um, so he's pretty singular, I would say. Um, you know, maybe Elon in his, in a different way is-

   13. NKNikhil Kamath14:39

       Mm-hmm

   14. BGBill Gates14:39

       ... is kind of singular. I think of Mark as a pretty normal person, actually. Uh, you know, he's got a great wife, you know, very serious about his kids.

   15. NKNikhil Kamath14:49

       You just said that

7. 14:50 – 17:33

   How tough is Bill on himself?

   1. NKNikhil Kamath14:50

      Steve Jobs was maybe too hard on himself. Are you hard on yourself, Bill? Why are you running around so much, meeting all the politicians and everything?

   2. BGBill Gates15:00

      No, I think if you want to, you know, work hard and not fool yourself, you better be pretty hard on yourself. Uh, and Steve was, uh, tough on himself. And it makes you, at first, maybe not a very good manager because you tend to manage people like you manage yourself, where you're just so tough on [chuckles] them. And, you know, for me, that meant that in my early days, I could get a lot out of people who were like me.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath15:28

      Mm-hmm.

   4. BGBill Gates15:29

      And, you know, so I probably missed some people who were very different than me that could have been, you know, part of the company. We were fairly homogeneous, very engineering-oriented group, and it took a while before I realized, okay, somebody who's a good salesperson or a good manager, you know, may not be good at the way I think of IQ. IQ is much more varied. Talent is more varied than I realized. You know, I sort of thought, well, if you can do math, you can do anything, and if you can't do math, then [chuckles] you can't do anything.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath16:00

      Mm-hmm.

   6. BGBill Gates16:00

      That's how simple-

   7. NKNikhil Kamath16:02

      Mm-hmm

   8. BGBill Gates16:02

      ... uh, that initial thing was. So I was... You know, it took me a lot of time, uh, to develop as a manager. You know, I think as I moved to the foundation, it was very important that I blend in people who like to work in the field in Africa with great scientists, with great people who worked with government. So I, you know, I was able to take the mistakes I'd made [chuckles] and learnings from Microsoft and, um, bring that to the foundation. But, you know, the why I, I chose, uh, to work so hard in my 20s, I mean, I, I loved the work-

   9. NKNikhil Kamath16:45

      I think 20s I get, Bill. The question is today.

   10. BGBill Gates16:48

       Oh, today, yeah, well, it's optional. Um, it is a lot of fun. I get to work with smart people. I'm learning all the time.

   11. NKNikhil Kamath16:58

       Mm-hmm.

   12. BGBill Gates16:59

       I, you know, I get to travel the world. The world is-

   13. NKNikhil Kamath17:02

       Haven't you traveled the world already?

   14. BGBill Gates17:04

       You know, in my Microsoft work, I went to Africa. I went to South Africa once and Egypt once, and so basically-

   15. NKNikhil Kamath17:13

       Mm-hmm

   16. BGBill Gates17:13

       ... you know, they don't buy much software in Africa. They buy some, but [chuckles] it's not-

   17. NKNikhil Kamath17:18

       Mm.

   18. BGBill Gates17:19

       Now, you know, Africa's, you know, huge, uh, in, in what I do. So I've, I've been exposed to different parts, so, uh-

   19. NKNikhil Kamath17:29

       If-

   20. BGBill Gates17:29

       ... I certainly got to meet a lot of people that I'd never met-

   21. NKNikhil Kamath17:32

       Yeah

   22. BGBill Gates17:32

       ... at Microsoft.

8. 17:33 – 20:55

   Huge population: burden or advantage with AI?

   1. BGBill Gates17:33

      [chuckles]

   2. NKNikhil Kamath17:33

      Yeah. If I were to ask you to extrapolate with no filters, since you know more about AI than I will ever, uh, in the world of tomorrow, 10 years from now, from a very capitalistic lens, is a huge population a boon or a bane?

   3. BGBill Gates17:55

      The... Let's say 20 years from now, AI will have changed things enough that, you know, the just this pure capitalistic framework probably won't explain much. Because as AIs, both as sort of white-collar type work and as blue-collar workers, the robots will get good hands and are able to do-... the physical things that, that humans do, say, working in a factory or construction, or, you know, going cleaning a, a hotel room, uh, which, you know, the hands have to be awfully good, uh, to do those things. We'll, we'll achieve that-

   4. NKNikhil Kamath18:42

      Mm.

   5. BGBill Gates18:43

      -and we'll have a lot of the making the goods and services, which is always, we've always had a shortage, a shortage of doctors, of teachers, of people to work in the factories. Those shortages won't exist, and so it's, it's a pretty profound change that will free up a lot of time. Y- you know, you can retire early, you can work shorter work weeks, and it's gonna require almost a philosophical rethink about, okay, how should time be spent? Because we don't need it to make enough food and make enough widgets and, uh, you know, do enough medical diagnosis. We will have created, you know, free intelligence. You know, in my day, it was about computing was expensive, it became free. Now, it's intelligence, like a doctor's intelligence, is scarce. You know, India has more doctors than Africa, but still not nearly as many as it should. But AI, uh, will come in and provide, you know, medical, uh, IQ, and there won't be a shortage. Uh, that's... A- and it's hard for those of us, you know, in my case, spending almost 70 years, and a year in a world of shortage, to even adjust my mind. Because, you know, what are markets about? Markets are about scarce resources-

   6. NKNikhil Kamath20:09

      Yeah

   7. BGBill Gates20:09

      ... and the price is okay. You know, you get the employee because you're willing to pay, pay them more. And, um, so, you know, I find myself trying to understand that future world, but, uh, it hasn't come into focus for me, and I, I, I enjoy engaging experts-

   8. NKNikhil Kamath20:32

      Mm-hmm

   9. BGBill Gates20:32

      ... about, okay, what does the economy look like, and, and how will we choose to use the, the freedom that will come? And, you know, even if I'm wrong, say it's 30 years, that's not a very long time.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath20:45

       Yeah.

   11. BGBill Gates20:45

       I mean, my, uh, kids, and certainly my grandkids-

   12. NKNikhil Kamath20:49

       Yeah

   13. BGBill Gates20:49

       ... uh, a lot of their life will be in that, that very changed world.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath20:54

       This economist,

9. 20:55 – 24:35

   What would we do if we didn't have to work?

   1. NKNikhil Kamath20:55

      John Maynard Keynes, uh, I think the American model is largely Keynesian, where they print money, the antithesis to Hayek, almost. He said this many decades ago, that the real question is, what will the world do if one did not have to work? If you had to, like, extrapolate one statement in 30, 40, 50, how many ev- ever years, what do we do if we don't have to work?

   2. BGBill Gates21:22

      I don't have to work.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath21:23

      Yeah.

   4. BGBill Gates21:24

      Uh, and so [chuckles] -

   5. NKNikhil Kamath21:25

      Yeah. [chuckles]

   6. BGBill Gates21:25

      ... uh, I, I choose to work.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath21:28

      Yeah. Because?

   8. BGBill Gates21:29

      Uh, yeah, because it's fun. You know, I take more vacation than I did when I was young, but, uh, it's still, you know, basically full, full-time work. And but it's... If you had that your whole life, it's different than being able to retire early. I mean, at least we, you know, have a period of working, and then, you know, if you said everybody could retire at, at 40, you know, how radical is that? Uh, maybe not, not that radical. Um, but if you said you never need to work-

   9. NKNikhil Kamath22:07

      Mm-hmm

   10. BGBill Gates22:08

       ... at least to me, I have a, "What?" You know, that, that is so-

   11. NKNikhil Kamath22:13

       Yeah

   12. BGBill Gates22:13

       ... different.

   13. NKNikhil Kamath22:14

       I think another very interesting question is, if we all don't work, do we get the same? Humans inherently are competitive with their peer groups, I think. So if I don't work, say, we are born tomorrow, me, you, him, him, we all don't work, but we are bestow- bestowed upon with the same resources and same social position. Will that work for us? Will one-

   14. BGBill Gates22:39

       No, I, I... Y- your, your point's a good one. We want to differentiate.

   15. NKNikhil Kamath22:46

       Yeah.

   16. BGBill Gates22:46

       Uh, you know, whether it's for our own ego or to be attractive or- [chuckles]

   17. NKNikhil Kamath22:53

       Mm.

   18. BGBill Gates22:53

       Uh, it's so we- we are so adapted to this world of shortage-

   19. NKNikhil Kamath23:00

       Mm-hmm

   20. BGBill Gates23:01

       ... uh, that, you know, maybe, you know, we'll create competitions and, you know, creativity or, you know-

   21. NKNikhil Kamath23:12

       Yeah

   22. BGBill Gates23:12

       ... maybe we'll take some part of human activity. I mean, in extreme cases, we're not gonna have robots play cricket, you know?

   23. NKNikhil Kamath23:20

       Yeah.

   24. BGBill Gates23:20

       That's boring. We'll let-

   25. NKNikhil Kamath23:22

       Yeah

   26. BGBill Gates23:22

       ... we'll reserve that just for the humans.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath23:24

       Yeah.

   28. BGBill Gates23:24

       Even if the robots could be, you know, way, way better-

   29. NKNikhil Kamath23:28

       Yeah

   30. BGBill Gates23:28

       ... that's, that's not interesting. And so what activities might a country say, "No, we're reserving this," you know, "Nurses are gonna be humans-
10. 24:35 – 29:05

    Insights from being the world’s richest

    1. NKNikhil Kamath24:35

       You've been the richest man in the world for a very long time, Bill. You've probably had access to everybody for a long, long time. I'm talking world leaders, philosophers, people at the cutting edge of everything. What do you know that I, I don't? Like, one thing. What have you learnt by having lived in your shoes?

    2. BGBill Gates24:58

       You know, I know a lot about science. [chuckles] Uh, you know, I've seen a lot of successful people-

    3. NKNikhil Kamath25:04

       Mm-hmm.

    4. BGBill Gates25:05

       -um, and, you know, learned the habits, um, that they have. I do think you develop, um, instincts about, you know, who to hire, who to partner with-

    5. NKNikhil Kamath25:19

       Mm-hmm

    6. BGBill Gates25:19

       ... just from-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath25:21

       Mm-hmm

    8. BGBill Gates25:21

       ... mistakes and, uh, you know, pattern matching. You know, and I've, I've been super lucky. People like Warren Buffett-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath25:28

       Mm-hmm

    10. BGBill Gates25:28

        ... who comes from a very different expertise than mine, you know, he and I have bonded over, you know, sharing ideas and kind of a common view of how things work in the world. And he, he is, on a lot of things, just his wisdom has, has been a huge help to me.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath25:49

        Mm-hmm.

    12. BGBill Gates25:50

        Um-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath25:50

        Not so much about business, but more about life.

    14. BGBill Gates25:53

        Well, it's certainly... You know, the decisions you make about your personal life probably affect your happiness. Uh, you know, I know super successful-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath26:03

        Mm

    16. BGBill Gates26:04

        ... people who aren't that happy-

    17. NKNikhil Kamath26:06

        Mm

    18. BGBill Gates26:06

        ... uh, and, you know, didn't apply their, uh... Weren't able to map their incredible intelligence onto, uh, having a great, uh, relationship with their kids or, uh, you know, their extended family. So it is, human capability is, is very strange, that you can't, uh... You know, like my friend, Paul Allen, um, you know, he was wonderful. He was key-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath26:43

        Mm

    20. BGBill Gates26:43

        ... to the success of Microsoft, but he actually didn't end up enjoying himself.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath26:48

        Mm-hmm.

    22. BGBill Gates26:49

        Um, you know, he felt like maybe people were gonna take advantage of him, and that, that's, you know-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath26:55

        Mm

    24. BGBill Gates26:55

        ... this is a guy who had everything-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath26:58

        Mm-hmm

    26. BGBill Gates26:59

        ... and yet it didn't, didn't really create, uh, comfort or, uh, the happiness he, he deserved.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath27:09

        When people ask me what drives me, uh, I mean, I'm a, m- I'm much less wise, experienced, all of those things, but in my own little bubble, some people do ask me-

    28. BGBill Gates27:21

        Sure

    29. NKNikhil Kamath27:21

        ... what drives me. I used to stupidly say, whenever someone asked me how you got lucky or how you did well in life, my go-to answer used to be, "Luck," which was never the truth, because I think we all have... All humans, I think, have a inflated sense of self, subconsciously, deep, deep down. Like, if I were to put 100 people in a room and ask, "How many of you are smarter than the majority?" I w- I would presume 99% or 89%- [chuckles]

    30. BGBill Gates27:53

        [chuckles]
11. 29:05 – 34:25

    Money: Motivation to make it v/s be Altruistic?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath29:05

       Uh, what I wanted from our conversation today, it's more a question for me than it is for other people, is this concept of motivational pluralism, in a way, where I can be motivated by different things at different points of time. I might also want to make money, but I might also want to give away money. I think you're at the forefront of that. Would you like to, like, share your thoughts on that? How does it make sense to want to make money while you want to also give away money?

    2. BGBill Gates29:36

       Well, even giving away money can be very egotistical. There's certainly-

    3. NKNikhil Kamath29:42

       Yeah

    4. BGBill Gates29:43

       ... ego involved.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath29:44

       There is a high-

    6. BGBill Gates29:44

       I mean, you know, Ted Turner, uh, used to say that, uh, the Forbes list was, which ranks people-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath29:52

       Yeah

    8. BGBill Gates29:52

       ... on their wealth, was a bad thing-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath29:54

       Mm

    10. BGBill Gates29:54

        ... because people would hesitate to give away [chuckles] money-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath29:57

        Mm

    12. BGBill Gates29:57

        ... 'cause they wouldn't, uh, achieve some rank on the, on the Forbes list.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath30:02

        Mm-hmm.

    14. BGBill Gates30:03

        And I think he had a, had a valid point there. You can never do anything that's totally pure.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath30:09

        Mm-hmm.

    16. BGBill Gates30:10

        Um, because if it's really deeply moral, then a little bit, you think, "Oh, people will praise that."

    17. NKNikhil Kamath30:18

        Yeah, yeah.

    18. BGBill Gates30:18

        And so, you know, is it ego or not? Um, you know, in the end, the, the work, you know, like the work we've done with vaccines-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath30:30

        Yeah

    20. BGBill Gates30:32

        ... you know, whether that was my ego [chuckles] or not, it-

    21. NKNikhil Kamath30:34

        Yeah.

    22. BGBill Gates30:35

        You know, it's a, it's a real thing-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath30:37

        Yeah

    24. BGBill Gates30:37

        ... that happened. Um, you know, I, I remember when I left Microsoft thinking, "Gosh, if it gets messed up, it's gonna screw up my mind. Should I go back or not go back?" And I'm so lucky that, you know-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath30:51

        Mm

    26. BGBill Gates30:51

        ... Steve did a very good job, and now Satya's doing, uh-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath30:55

        Mm-hmm

    28. BGBill Gates30:55

        ... a very good job, so I haven't had to worry about that. It also helped that it made my Microsoft stock, uh-

    29. NKNikhil Kamath31:01

        Yeah

    30. BGBill Gates31:01

        ... valuable enough that even though I've given away, uh, a, a lot, you know, I still, uh... You know, I'm not nearly as, as rich as, as some, but I'm in the top 20. Um, and that's great. You know, I'm- over the next 20 years, I'll, I'll be able to give a lot away. But even that's not- doesn't get you out of the why the, why do I-
12. 34:25 – 39:15

    How Bill relates to the youth

    1. NKNikhil Kamath34:25

       So I was having lunch with my team today, Bill. They're all like... A bunch of them are 21, 23-

    2. BGBill Gates34:31

       Wow

    3. NKNikhil Kamath34:32

       ... 24. And even at 38, I'm so disconnected with how they think, their, their version of reality, in a way. Whenever we've- whenever I've seen you for a meal, lunch, dinner, be it whatever, there's always wine. They say that people are like the vintage of wine from the year that they're born in. So let's say you were born in year X, and you're from that vintage, what assumption of the world today, or the youth of the world today, do you think that you have, which is not fully true, and how do you look at the world today, but it doesn't resonate for the youth of today?

    4. BGBill Gates35:16

       Yeah, well, it's nice to have your kids give you a hard time, 'cause you get a little bit of-

    5. NKNikhil Kamath35:22

       Yeah, yeah, yeah

    6. BGBill Gates35:22

       ... uh, realizing, "Wow, uh, there's a different way of looking at things." You know, s- some things, like I'm very email-centric, which my, my youngest daughter thinks is so laughable. Uh, and, you know, when she sends me a text, I don't respond in five minutes, and she's like: "What's wrong with you, uh, Dad?" And I, I'm not gonna change it. I'm sorry. I, I'm, I'm kind of stuck in my, uh, email-centric ways. Uh, you know, so I'll, I'll just have to live with that. Um, you know, I, I... You know, I was very lucky. The insight that computing would become free, you know, for my generation, there were very few people who saw that.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath36:09

       Mm-hmm.

    8. BGBill Gates36:09

       Uh, and so I, you know, I had an advantage because that implied a lot of things that, that Microsoft could get out in, in front of. Now, this, this current revolution, in a way, everybody kind of sees it coming. Uh, it's almost too wild to be true.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath36:29

       Mm.

    10. BGBill Gates36:29

        But yes, it's, it's not like there's only a small community-... sees AI coming. And I'm, I'm not sure, do the young people have an anticipation of what it's gonna be like better? Um, I hope so, because they're the [chuckles] ones who, you know, be in charge and, and, and have to deal with it. I think it's a rate of change that's greater than most, most periods of history. You know, when we made in the US, you know, when we went from 50% farmers to 2% farmers, it- you could still farm your whole generation. It was your children-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath37:10

        Mm

    12. BGBill Gates37:10

        ... that stopped being farmers. You know, because it happened over a 60-year period, we go from a very high percentage down. Here, you know, even within a generation, uh, you know, certain skills are, aren't gonna be as, as needed. So I think that's a pretty wild thing, uh, to be, to be changing things, you know? And, and you're- it's nice to surround your peop- yourself with, with young people, uh, you know, and have their insights. Of course, your customers aren't all young, so you have to-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath37:49

        Yeah

    14. BGBill Gates37:49

        ... you know, stay in touch-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath37:51

        Yeah

    16. BGBill Gates37:51

        ... with what they're thinking as well.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath37:54

        If I may pay you a compliment, Bill, after having spent time with you for a few years, I feel like you care lesser today about what people think about you, and that is making you increasingly more appealing to the youth.

    18. BGBill Gates38:14

        Hmm.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath38:14

        And I think that comes out in your book as well.

    20. BGBill Gates38:17

        No, I mean, if anybody can afford to not, [chuckles] you know, think about... You know, there are people who like me more than there should, there are people who hate me more than they should. [chuckles] I mean, it's, you know, a wild mix, you know, including crazy conspiracies.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath38:33

        Yeah.

    22. BGBill Gates38:33

        Uh, and so I do think with age, your ego needs go down a bit. Um, your desire to help others succeed versus just yourself, uh, you know, you get a little bit, they call it gener- more generative and, uh, sharing advice. Um, having kids helps with that a lot. And, um, you know, so I should have the luxury of not, [chuckles] uh-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath39:06

        Yeah

    24. BGBill Gates39:06

        ... worrying about these things, you know?

    25. NKNikhil Kamath39:08

        Ironically, I think that is the definition of cool for the youth today, not caring.

    26. BGBill Gates39:13

        [chuckles]

13. 39:15 – 40:23

    Nikhil's attempt to pitch for a job in the A.I world (he's serious)

    1. NKNikhil Kamath39:15

       Thank you, Bill. Thank you for doing this, and I think I'm seeing you next in June.

    2. BGBill Gates39:18

       No, great to see you, and uh-

    3. NKNikhil Kamath39:20

       Yeah.

    4. BGBill Gates39:20

       Yeah, so you're coming to the Giving Pledge?

    5. NKNikhil Kamath39:21

       Yeah. Yeah.

    6. BGBill Gates39:21

       Oh, perfect.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath39:22

       Yeah.

    8. BGBill Gates39:23

       Uh, no, it's always fun to see you there, and-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath39:25

       Yeah

    10. BGBill Gates39:25

        ... uh, thanks, this was a blast.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath39:28

        Thank you. [chuckles] [upbeat music] I actually want to ask you some advice. So I'm feeling like I'm losing out on the whole AI world. So I want to go take a job somewhere in the US or an internship, unpaid one.

    12. BGBill Gates39:42

        Oh, wow.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath39:42

        Where would you suggest? How do I go about being in the forefront of that world, just in terms of learning the implications, not so much the development of it?

    14. BGBill Gates39:52

        You know, with your business experience, maybe the OpenAI guys would have some role where you would be super valuable to them, that you'd be getting that exposure. I mean, that's the most intense-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath40:04

        Yeah.

    16. BGBill Gates40:05

        Those guys, [chuckles]

    17. NKNikhil Kamath40:06

        Yeah.

    18. BGBill Gates40:06

        It's wild.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath40:07

        Yeah.

    20. BGBill Gates40:07

        Uh, and they're, they're very good guys.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath40:09

        Yeah.

    22. BGBill Gates40:10

        Boy, are they surfing-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath40:11

        Yeah

    24. BGBill Gates40:12

        ... surfing the wave. Who's WTF? [beep] [laughing]

Episode duration: 40:23