Nikhil KamathEp# 17 | WTF is Gaming in India? | Career, Investment, Entrepreneurship
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 29,649 words- 0:00 – 0:40
Introduction
- NKNikhil Kamath
so we just start rolling, okay?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So how we typically start this-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
- is each one of us says something controversial about us [upbeat music] that nobody knows right now. [upbeat music] Ready, guys? So how we typically start this-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... is each one of us says
- 0:40 – 2:09
Nitish Mittersain Introduction
- NKNikhil Kamath
something controversial about us that nobody knows right now.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Hmm. [laughing] I'm a listed company boss.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So what? [laughing]
- NMNitish Mittersain
I'm part of a listed company too. [laughing]
- SPSpeaker
Maybe you can talk about something not related to the company, more like personal.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I don't know. [chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Okay. Shall I go?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Well, I'm very, uh, temperamental, which people think I'm not.
- NKNikhil Kamath
You are temperamental?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Can be.
- SPSpeaker
Ah.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Very explosive, one percent of the time. [chuckles]
- SPSpeaker
Wow! I haven't really seen you. [chuckles]
- NMNitish Mittersain
Or point one percent of the time. My image is-
- SPSpeaker
Uh
- NMNitish Mittersain
... uh, in the industry to be the most, uh, calmest person around.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, true.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And who are you usually temperamental with?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Just very mood... Sometimes very moody. [chuckles]
- SPSpeaker
Oh.
- NMNitish Mittersain
[chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
So if I were to meet your childhood classmate, your best friend-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... and ask him if Nitish is capable of one extremely naughty thing in life-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... at the age of forty, fifty, whatever-
- 2:09 – 5:15
What is Young President's Organisation (YPO)
- NMNitish Mittersain
the last, uh, decade or so.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you wanna tell everybody who does not know what is YPO? Give us a-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Sure
- NKNikhil Kamath
... minute on YPO.
- NMNitish Mittersain
YPO is, uh, the Young Presidents' Organization. It's a originally a US organization, but, uh, has fourteen cha- uh, more than fourteen chapters, I think fifteen or sixteen chapters now in India. Uh, it come- brings together, uh, businessmen, uh, professionals, in a very close group. So in, uh, Mumbai, for example, I think a total of three hundred members might be there, and we organize a lot of learning events. Like I was just telling, right, we're, we're visiting Seoul next week, and we're doing a lot of learning activity. We're actually visiting Sean's large Krafton office, where we're meeting the CEO, et cetera. I think it's a great networking event, and you make, uh, get to know a lot of great people. You are in YPO, so you can add to that, what I didn't.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- NMNitish Mittersain
But, yeah. [chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
I think of YPO very differently.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I have very first principles questioning about why people give so much money to an organization, and then work for the organization-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... for free. Uh, when I was not in YPO, I say bad things about everybody, okay?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Sure.
- NKNikhil Kamath
This is a very open forum-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... so feel free to join me, and I'm gonna pull all your legs, so feel free to pull them back.
- NMNitish Mittersain
That's fine.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Otherwise, I'll feel bad and guilty at the end of it. [laughing]
- NMNitish Mittersain
[laughing]
- NKNikhil Kamath
YPO, before I joined, appeared like this organization where rich people hang out.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And I had a lot of curiosity about what rich people might be doing-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... together when they hang out in a closed room, and they're not allowing cameras and outsiders to come in.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Correct.
- NKNikhil Kamath
But in the few years that I have been with them, I have kind of realized that, uh, it's like a social network.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Correct.
- NKNikhil Kamath
It's a social network for people to hang out, uh, eat, drink, chill-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Correct
- NKNikhil Kamath
... uh, go on holidays-
- 5:15 – 7:00
Nitish Mittersain Introduction Continued
- NMNitish Mittersain
confidentiality.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you wanna introduce yourself professionally as well?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah, sure.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- NMNitish Mittersain
So I'm the founder and CEO of Nazara Technologies. Nazara is, uh, India's only listed gaming company. I actually started coding games at the age of seven, so one of the lucky guys who discovered his passion at a very young age. And I've had the fortune of, at a young age, my parents encouraged me a lot. I was doing gaming, uh, now what? Thirty-seven, thirty-five years back, and I pursued that for my entire life now. We became the first, uh, listed gaming company in twenty twenty-one, so three years now. And, uh, the journey continues, the game continues, and I continue to play it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you regret it, listing?
- NMNitish Mittersain
... Not at all.
- NKNikhil Kamath
No? [chuckles]
- NMNitish Mittersain
Not at all. I wouldn't have met you- [chuckles] - and got you as an investor.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay, for all the disclosures that should be made, I am a investor in Nitish's company.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Okay.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And, uh, what is it, four, five percent?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Five percent.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Five percent investor in Nitish's company, and we meet often. And, uh, like I'm going to bug all of you today, I bug him a lot on questions and... Because I want to understand this domain a bit more.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Today is rooted from that same curiosity, because so many people are telling me that gaming is this next big thing. The young today are spending so much more time on gaming than traditional forms of entertainment, so I have a lot of curiosity around it. But most people who I, who I have asked in person, not on camera, if they regret listing and becoming a public company, say they do.
- NMNitish Mittersain
I don't.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Nine out of ten.
- NMNitish Mittersain
I absolutely don't.
- NKNikhil Kamath
But why do you
- 7:00 – 13:50
What do we Really think about listing a company? Pros and Cons
- NKNikhil Kamath
inherently think listing a company is good? Is access to capital cheaper?
- NMNitish Mittersain
See, from our case, I think I really thought two things. I, having done this business for a really long time, two decades, at a time when gaming didn't exist in India, I really felt at that point of time that, one, by going public as India's first gaming company, we could really plant a flag that India is opening up.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is it good PR?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Very good PR. I mean, if things are going well. Uh, and for us, we were-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Are any of your shareholders also your clients? Is there a significant overlap?
- NMNitish Mittersain
No. Uh, in terms of, uh, end players, they would be, but we don't market or cross-market to them. I mean, we don't cross-market our equity to our players, so it's difficult to-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- NMNitish Mittersain
... extrapolate that or figure out the exact data, but there would be.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So what, what is it? When you list a company-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... is it because you're able to get money cheaply and faster-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... and easily?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is it that you're doing a marketing exercise?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I'm assuming when you go from pre-public to public, you spend as much as, best case, one and a half, two percent; worst case, four, five percent in the bankers you bring in, the consultants you bring in-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... the accounting fees, all of that put together. So if somebody is spending that much money, what is the true incentive? If you're saying PR, your shareholders are not really your clients. If it's not capital, then what is it?
- NMNitish Mittersain
No, I think in the last three, four, five years, as Nazara went public, our brand visibility and company's credibility significantly increased.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Credibility to who? To your customers?
- NMNitish Mittersain
To a variety of stakeholders. I would say, when I say customers, our customers are end gamers. I think maybe not so much to them, but even partners like Sean and Krafton and global players like that-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- NMNitish Mittersain
... when they're coming into India and wanting to partner-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- NMNitish Mittersain
... I think today Nazara is clearly one company that they're very happy to talk to and partner. And maybe, Sean-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah
- NMNitish Mittersain
... you can agree or not agree with me.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. Um, I mean, being listed give a lot of, uh, good publicity, good publicity, and then, like, feeling of trustworthy to especially the companies outside India, which we might not have, which might not have a very good visibility and, uh, understanding about the backgrounds of the company. Actually, I ha- I felt the same when Krafton got listed, uh, maybe around similar timing-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah
- 13:50 – 15:40
Sohn’s Introduction: Life in South Korea
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Pohang, which is a, like, south, uh, eastern coast city. I was born from there, uh, from, you know, from, uh, parents, uh, who are working for with one of the largest state company, uh, in the world. Um, so I'm from the middle-class, uh, family. Yeah, that's my sort of [chuckles] -
- NKNikhil Kamath
I'm guessing South Korean middle class is much more rich than-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Me too [chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
... Indian middle class. What is, uh, GDP per capita in South Korea, $50,000?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
33,000 now, I guess. 33.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Middle class would be, like, $70,000, $80,000 a year?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah, household income might be like that. Um, but then you have to understand that Korea grows- grew quite fast. So when I was, like, you know, 10, 15, it was... I would- I cannot say that it was similar to what, uh, India economy is now, uh, currently, uh, uh, you know, positioned. But South Korea GDP, uh, when there was World Olympic in 1988, uh, it was 2,500 or 2,600, 700, which is pretty similar to where India is. So, um, as a, as a South Korean, we, uh, started from, like, in '60, '70s, before I bo- was born, it was a, it was developing country in the lower side, uh, among, among global, uh, peers. And then it grew into, like, developed country in the, like-
- NKNikhil Kamath
What era are you talking about? Which year?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
From, from '70s till maybe 2000.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
These 30, 30 years, Korea maybe started from maybe 300, 400, uh, GDP per capita and become now, like, you know, 15,000, maybe 15,000, uh, around, uh, like, early 2000. Yeah, so that was the journey, like, Korean economy grew quite fast.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you have any North Korean friends, or did you ever?
- 15:40 – 20:50
Parallels between South Korean and Indian Societies
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Not really. Like, it has been separated, like, more than 70 years now. Um, and we are not allowed to visit North Korea, legally. Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Are there any North Koreans in South Korea?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Or if you enter, then you cannot come back. [chuckles] Sorry?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Are there any North Koreans in South Korea?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah, yeah, I mean, there are quite sizable, uh, defectors. Like, they are, uh, they are exit- they are defecting from North Korea-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
... through, uh, through, uh, third-party countries like China, Vietnam, Mongolia, Thailand. So I believe, I don't really remember the ex- exact number but, uh, I think at the peak, there was 10,000 or 20,000 per year, the North Koreans defecting North Korea to enter, to enter Chi- enter South Korea.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What's Korean society like today? I have never been.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
You have never been.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I would love to go.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah, you should.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
You should. Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So you've been in India a while now. You live in Bangalore-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... where I also live.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
If you had to draw parallels between society in Bangalore-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... and society in North- in South Korea, sorry. [laughing]
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
[chuckles] That mistake happens often.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What, what is similar and what is dissimilar?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Um, uh, like Korea, South Korea is very, uh, quite, um, uh, homogeneous society. It's getting more cosmopolitan. It's, uh, there are, uh, more immigrants, especially from Southeast Asia. Um, but I think overall, 97, 8% are all Korean in terms of population. So it's a very... And also, it's a, it's a small country. Uh, I think, uh, the land mass is around 100,000 square kilometers, which might be, I don't know, 20 times or 40 times smaller than India. Uh, so peop- all people speak only Korean. Uh, there are no Hindi-speaking people.
- NKNikhil Kamath
English-speaking?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
English, uh, I mean, because of education, uh, it has taken some time, but I think young Koreans speak fairly good English. Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
But it's still very much like the second language, is it?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah, of course, of course. So in school, we, I mean, most of public school, uh, do not use English as a medium for teaching classes. So English has a separate sort of, uh, you know, classes, which, uh, maybe three hours a week or something like that. So English- but we spend a lot of money to learn English outside the class-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
... outside the classroom. So-... um, I mean, I also studied a lot English outside [chuckles] the school-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- 20:50 – 21:35
What is an Esports Tournament?
- NKNikhil Kamath
are esports, Animesh, if I may ask?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Uh, esports, it's gaming in a competitive format, wherein there are wins and losses. It's not about playing inside the game and winning and losing, but there are teams, just like how we have in cricket, and you have... There are fixed set of players, there's a roster, there's are teams, and they are playing with high stakes, with a big prize pool tournament.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And what kind of games, typically?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Uh, it could be anything. It could be FPS, which is like a CS that you were, that you used to play back in your days.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Just say full forms. FPS is what?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
FPS is first-person shooter, wherein, you know, the view of the, view format of the game is you have a gun in your hand, and, you know, you can see a first-person view.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is that the most popular kind of game in India, shooting?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
India, yeah, shooting is very popular, but third, third-person shooting, TPS, like, you know, the, the game like GTA-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah, the character
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
... where you, you can see the character fully, and you're moving.
- 21:35 – 24:35
How did Sohn become Krafton India CEO?
- NKNikhil Kamath
So Krafton-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
-we know now Krafton was a twenty billion dollar company. Now it's a ten billion dollar company-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... roundabout.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Uh, how did you get into this industry? How are you Krafton CEO now? How did you come to India?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Krafton India CEO. Um, I really like to play game. I like, uh, playing games maybe since I was, uh, not seven, maybe eight, nine, ten. Uh, so I maybe after grade, grade two or grade three. Uh, my father-
- NKNikhil Kamath
How old are you now, Sean?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Uh, forty-five.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Forty-five. Uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Nitish also?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah, forty- Yeah, I think we are in the same age.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Forty-five?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah. Born in '78, right? '79. '79. '79. My father, uh, could afford, uh, uh, you know, buying, back then it was Apple, uh, Apple-compatible, like, eight beat computer. So my father, uh, could afford it, and honestly, back then, you say I, I want to learn how to programming and, and things like that, but I didn't, uh, code too much. I just played game all the time. So that was beginning of my, uh, passion on gaming as a, as a hobby, mostly. And then, uh, it grew quite a bit, so I played a lot, even in high school and college. Um, and back then, um, like Taiwan, like Israel, Korean, South Korean man should go to army. But I, back then-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Conscription.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Conscription, yeah. It's a compulsory. But, uh, we could choose to work for high-tech company, IT companies, uh, including gaming companies, uh, if you have certain engineering certificate, uh, uh, after, like, college degree. So I, I, I try, uh, uh, that direction, uh, so I could get in- get a job in game developer, which is still, which is still exist. Um, uh, I could get a job there as a game designer. Uh, so that was my beginning of career in gaming. Uh, but I found that I'm not that good at game designing or coding, so I switched my role to marketing and sales side. Um, and then, you know, um, and I, I... You know, that was the, you know, how I got into the gaming side. Um, but I actually didn't like working for a gaming company. I found that it's something different. Like, you like playing games, but you don't really like to work for a gaming company. It was, uh, little, to be little casual, like, it was shitty, shitty to work for a gaming company from young, young ambitious man perspectives. I want to work for big companies, so I switched to banking. Uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
How old were you then?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Around ten years, uh, after I had an MBA. So, [chuckles] so I got a, um, so I, I started my career in gaming in two thousand. I got an MBA in two thousand and eight.... uh, and I started my career in banking from two thousand and eight till two thousand and seventeen, which I joined Krafton, uh, as a, as a CFO of, of one of, uh, the subsidiary. Um, so that's how I got into, uh, Krafton. And then, uh,
- 24:35 – 26:25
Why did Pubg get banned in India?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
you know, we were very successful in, in a game, uh, called PUBG. Um, uh, and, um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Did PUBG get banned in India? You, you wanna talk about PUBG?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah, I mean, like, it was more of a-
- NKNikhil Kamath
It was huge in India, right? Everybody was playing it.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah, it's still big, but now it's BGMI, uh, the new Indian version.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is it the same thing with a different name?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Uh, no, it's a India-oriented game they made specifically for India, and it's a different publisher altogether. It has nothing to do with PUBG Mobile. That was a Tencent game. It was a Chinese company. The biggest gaming company, you can call it. Tencent owns everything, like majority of the stuff.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What is the relationship between Tencent and Krafton?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Um, Tencent is the investor. Uh, Tencent is investor in Krafton, uh, before the IPO, uh, and they still, they still maintain some share.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So your-- BGMI is also you?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah. Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So you stopped PUBG to build BGMI, and now that is popular, like that?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Uh, PUBG is actually, the original PUBG PC is a Krafton game. And then Tencent had the right to build the mobile version-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
... of it, and that was, that's globally available PUBG Mobile. When India banned PUBG Mobile, Krafton came with Indian version of their thing. They made their own thing, BGMI-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
... which is Battlegrounds Mobile India.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And what are the differences between these games? One is more appealing than the other?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Uh, technically nothing, but then it's more about the origin and everything else that they had to address to, you know, launch the game in India.
- NKNikhil Kamath
But China does that to everybody, right? They don't even allow Facebook and Google in China.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah, and-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
That's true
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
... for gaming apps or, like, even before the mobile era, they, uh, allow publishing of games on the approval basis-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
... uh, which is, uh, maybe China and Vietnam only-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
... in the world.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you feel like
- 26:25 – 29:40
Is the world becoming more fragmented?
- NKNikhil Kamath
the world is becoming a more fragmented place, taking inspiration from China, uh, a country which does not allow foreign apps and replicates it with their own versions? Will all IP that touches the citizens of a certain country, in the future, be built in the country, or at least be owned or hosted in that country?
- JKJoseph Kim
It, it's a really interesting question because I, I think that that was the direction we were going, and we may go back to that again. It, it was being called Splinternet, basically, like, the idea that because China has its own internal policies where, you know, you need a license, you also need a local partner. They were banning a lot of apps from the US. There was... The, the current situation now, and there was a time when, when Trump was president of the US, and he was gonna ban TikTok. It seemed like we were gonna be moving more in that direction. We might again, but I do think that that's a danger. And actually, though, when it came to me starting a company here in India, um, that was a consideration because we felt that if the world does move towards a Splinternet, and if China and Russia are on one side, I wanna be on the other side. And if, if India is, uh, split from China, uh, currently, one, one thing that's not well understood is that almost all of the top mobile shooter games are all developed by Chinese companies, effectively, right? And so, like, um, and so-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Why is that?
- JKJoseph Kim
It's because they have a developed, deep expertise in shooters, and they also... There, there's been, like, a phenomenon in which, like, the Tencent teams and the Ch- Chinese teams have-- they're just... The, the work ethic, the culture, they're just kind of crazy compared to the West, right? Like, the West right now, if I'm just being honest, we're, we're, we're gonna be honest here, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- JKJoseph Kim
Is, is in kind of in decline, where you don't have the same work ethic, the same kind of drive. And I think when you look at budgets today, um, in the US, budgets are, like, to make a game now is, like, a hundred, three hundred million dollars for, like, a, for an HD, a PC, or a console game. But in China, they're working nine, nine, six. They've identified specific strategic areas that are important to them, and then they just go all in in those areas. And, uh, mobile, for shooters, has been one of those areas. And so when you look at every game that they work on, y- you know, Call of Duty Mobile is actually developed by Tencent, although they're using, they're using the IP of, of Activision, for example, right? And most of the... I, I would say, the, the skill, the technical expertise currently exists in China. Um, one of the objectives of the company that I started was to hopefully do that here in India as well, but it's been tough. [chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Why is that?
- JKJoseph Kim
[chuckles] I think that, um... So the Indian game development ecosystem is still early. And if you look at the historical context of the Indian game development ecosystem,
- 29:40 – 38:14
Indian Gaming ecosystem - Challenges & Opportunity
- JKJoseph Kim
it's been one that's more, that has been more of a services orientation, right? And so the model in India, in terms of the historical context, has been taking games from the West, at, at least for mobile, um, that are in decline, and then getting a team in India to live operate it for, um, greater margins, right? For lower cost. And so because of that historical context, there hasn't been, like, um, a, a culture, a knowledge, a skill set of new game development in India yet. I'm sure it's burgeoning, and there's certainly a lot of, you know, successful local game companies, but I-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Has there been a single game in India, built in India, that has-... reached scale in a true sense?
- JKJoseph Kim
Uh, so I believe, like, the game at the highest scale from a downloads perspective is GameXiang's Ludo King, but really it's Orange-
- NKNikhil Kamath
GameXiang?
- NMNitish Mittersain
GameXiang.
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
GameXiang. That's an Indian company?
- JKJoseph Kim
Yes.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah.
- JKJoseph Kim
Yes. Um, when I look at the charts, that's the only game that I see come, you know, on, on the top charts, uh, globally. But still, it's largely an Indian audience, because there's so many Indians that love Ludo. It, it does-
- NKNikhil Kamath
And what scale are we talking, in terms of revenue coming out of the game?
- JKJoseph Kim
I, I think that it has almost very little revenue, [chuckles] right? But, uh, and from a downloads perspective, it's very high.
- NMNitish Mittersain
So I know that they recently crossed a billion downloads, I think- Animesh Agarwal: ... Yeah -in India.
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah, but I-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah, monetization is a, uh, is a challenge.
- JKJoseph Kim
Right.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Relatively.
- JKJoseph Kim
And I think that's the opportunity for India, though, right?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah.
- JKJoseph Kim
Which is, like, if India can develop a similar kind of work ethic, skill set, and, um, knowledge of monetization and how to monetize more strongly, then I think India has a great opportunity.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah. You know, just to add to that, Nikhil, uh, we've been around for so long, right? So we've really seen the whole evolution of the Indian gaming industry right from late '90s to where we are today in '24. I think one more reason is that unlike China, et cetera, which had a large PC gaming culture, uh, gaming cafes, et cetera, for a very long period of time, India's really been a mobile gaming-first nation. So most people playing games, their first experience has been the mobile phone, very casual gaming. So just that culture takes time to develop, even when you're thinking as a game designer, as a game developer, as an evolution. Up to 2010, you would not see that at all. Then you had Zingas of the world and Electronic Arts of the world set up shop, back offices in Bangalore and, uh, Hyderabad, et cetera. And you've started seeing some of those come out, set up some companies which are now becoming successful. So I think we're going up that curve. Hopefully, we'll accelerate up that curve. I, I-
- NKNikhil Kamath
But, uh-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yes, sorry.
- NKNikhil Kamath
But I think he, he was making a good point.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Joseph is saying there is... The ecosystem in India is not capable of producing a game which can really compete on the world stage. What do you think India has to change to change that?
- JKJoseph Kim
I think there has to be a few things that change. I would say probably the most important thing is talent. So look, I live in Silicon Valley, okay? The smartest guys in Silicon Valley are all Indian, [chuckles] right? And so they certainly have... Like, Indians can be the smartest anywhere. Uh, they're all the, you know, the, all the tech CEOs are all, all Indian in Silicon Valley. But-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you think that's the problem, the smart ones are going out of the country?
- JKJoseph Kim
That's one of the problems, but I, I think that gaming in India has a double problem. So first, sh- yes, uh, there are a lot of people in India, when they get the, an opportunity to, like, 7x, 10x their salary by going abroad, and they have that opportunity because they've developed a skill set here, then they- then they'll, they'll jump. I think the other thing is more of a cultural issue that, um, I have discovered over the past few years that I've been here in India, which is that gaming, at least- and you guys, please disagree with me.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah, yeah.
- 38:14 – 42:25
Who is Joseph Kim? How did he get into Gaming?
- NKNikhil Kamath
like to tell us more about yourself, Joseph, like, generally life?
- JKJoseph Kim
I'm a guy that's trying to do something meaningful before I die. So, uh, you know, I, I think, um... So in terms of my career, I, I, I kind of, kind of, um, worked in software development-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- JKJoseph Kim
... initially. Uh, then I moved into management consulting, then, um, around 2010, 2011, started a gaming company unsuccessfully. Um, then went into, like, kind of consulting with big Asian publishers, um, trying to, uh, you know, publish games, mobile games for the Western market.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Why do they call them publishers?
- JKJoseph Kim
Uh, publishers generally, um, finance and distribute games.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay.
- JKJoseph Kim
And, and so their model is to, like, not do the development. They work with another company that actually develops the games, but then they would help get those games launched into market and distributed. And so there's a financing component, but there's also a distribution and marketing component as well.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Can you give me the example of a publisher and a game developer, the distinction?
- JKJoseph Kim
Sure. So, uh, for example, I mean, I think Krafton recent- like, just, just to, again, kind of, um, give you a very live example, Krafton worked with a company called ZeptoLab, that has a game for, uh, the global market, and they worked with them to make an Indian-specific version of the game. So I don't know what the exact deal terms were, but I assume that they would pay for part or full development cost.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Revenue share. Yeah.
- JKJoseph Kim
They would have a revenue share with them-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- JKJoseph Kim
... may potentially give them a, a guarantee of some kind, some initial, you know, payment.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- JKJoseph Kim
And then, uh, and then it would be up to Krafton to actually market and distribute the game. The developer, after they've finished developing the game, would, would either, like, in... For a premium game, they'd be done. For a live-operated free-to-play game, they, they would continue to operate the game and then share in the, share in the success of the game through a revenue share.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Interesting. And when I read that you were at Sega Games, by Sega, do you mean that console which we used to have back in the day?
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah, so [laughing] ...
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughing] I remember playing that.
- JKJoseph Kim
So after, after I, I kind of did consulting, I joined a company called FunPlus, and I actually had a pretty big success. And the model that I learned at FunPlus is the model that I'm actually trying to bring to India. And so at FunPlus, we had something that I call a leads-based model. But essentially, we took, at that time, a fairly inexperienced team in Beijing, and this was during a period like 2000, I don't know, 14, 15 or so, when China was not as-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- JKJoseph Kim
... dominant as it is today. And, uh, we had a team in Beijing. We brought experts from around the world in various areas that the team was not strong in. We brought them to China, had them teach the team, and then we developed, uh, games out of, out of China. Uh, the game that I developed was called King of Avalon, but, uh, that turned out to be a pretty big success. And then after, uh, after FunPlus, I joined Sega, um, basically in, in their mobile games division. So, uh, basically-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Was Sega the machine on which we used to play-
- JKJoseph Kim
It was
- NKNikhil Kamath
... Contra and Mario and all that?
- JKJoseph Kim
That's right.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Sega.
- JKJoseph Kim
That's right.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah, Sega-
- 42:25 – 49:04
Animesh Agarwal / 8-Bit Thug Introduction
- NKNikhil Kamath
Moving to the youngest one here, Animesh-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I've had the shortest professional run in the gaming industry- [chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
... until now.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Your online name is 8Bit Thug.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
... where was that inspired from? Do you feel like you're a thug in real life?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Uh, not really. People do think that I'm a little bit of, like, have a bullish nature in the gaming industry-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Ah. [laughing]
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
-but that's not true. [laughing] Uh, I think that's just because, uh, you know, things that I've been, luckily been able to do, which I'm very proud of, across the last six years. The name story is very simple. 8Bit was my clan name in a game called Clash Royale-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Ah.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
-which I was heavily invested into as a casual gamer.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Not professionally.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
I was pursuing my CA inters, and I had something to do in, uh, to get- because I didn't want to step out, spend a lot of time studying. So that was a game I was heavily invested into.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
I made a clan, 8Bit. That's how the prefix of my name came in.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
And Thug is actually a short form of Thug Life, which is also, uh, from a song from a movie called Dictator. College days, nothing to do. I said, "It's a good nine, good name," you know, getting fascinated by movies. So, and then, uh, actually, when I used to play PUBG Mobile, it did not take 8Bit Thug Life as my full name, so I left out Life, and it's 8Bit Thug, and the rest is history.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Why 8Bit?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
8Bit, my team name.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Ah.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Then why did you pick 8Bit for your team name? [laughing]
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Okay, so interesting question.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
When I was playing Clash Royale-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Uh
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
... there were eight people from across the world met, who met in the game-
- 49:04 – 55:20
How much do gamers/streamers earn in India?
- NKNikhil Kamath
full-time gamer, how much do successful streamers, gamers make in India? How viable is it as a profession, profession?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
I think it's very skewed, to be very honest.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. Mm.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
The top gamers and top streamers make a lot of money, and there's- like, if you go to the bottom of the chart, people are not making money at all.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Describe lot.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Million dollar-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Who's the number one gamer in-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Million dollars com- comfortably in a year.
- NKNikhil Kamath
This is a gamer?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
This is a gaming content creator. It has to be a streamer at this point.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Who's the top in India?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Uh, I think it could be Mortal, Scout, Mythpat, and Fire-
- SPSpeaker
Like, few million subscribers on YouTube.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah, million subscribers.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Mm.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Then we have Techno Gamers. They are comfortably making, you know, uh, money around that number.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And this money comes from?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Brand endorsements plus content, I think.
- NKNikhil Kamath
YouTube-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Brand endorsements really form a big chunk.
- NKNikhil Kamath
YouTube content?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah, YouTube content. YouTube or, uh, Instagram, social media platforms.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is it like PewDiePie? I, I remember looking at YouTube for a long time, PewDiePie had the largest subscribers. This is like that?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Sort of, yes. He wa- he has been a, uh, an inherent gamer, like, he has played games for quite a bit on his channel, so something of that kind.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay, remove content creators. [clears throat] Gamer gamer?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Uh, gamer gamer, I would say people who have played at the highest level of esports, that is, playing official tournaments for a franchised or... Not a franchise, we don't have franchise here, but for a registered esports team. I think they could be doing close to 30, 35 lakhs a year, by just playing games professionally. They have-
- NKNikhil Kamath
And how many of these people are there? Thousands?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Uh, not really. I don't think at 35 lakhs, it's thousand. It could be the top 150. Right. Because it's very limited.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Where else in this domain can young people make money in India? Streamer, gamer, then?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Okay, so now this is where I wanted to come to the conversation that, you know, you were having with Joseph. What I feel that India does not really... So if you look at Indian market, gaming boomed in India 2019, mid. It's exactly when it started booming, and Covid happened, and it, the gaming industry just blew off the lids. I believe if you compare Indian gaming, uh, trajectory to Western and European market, like, uh, European and American market, you realize we paced in, we like... You know, the graph s- was very steep. We moved at a very fast pace. We paced really well. Gaming in India grew by leaps and bounds compared to the pace at which other countries were coming in, but that is the, uh, consumption part of it. India has surpassed US and Brazil in terms of mobile game downloads. India has 568 million online gamers. So numbers are great, but there was a big void in the system, which was this, that we did not have the proper, uh, correct roles defined. People did not know, ki, what jobs are available, but people did not know ki, apart from being a mortal or a scout or play- becoming a gamer, there are other hundred domains where you can enter the gaming industry. So I believe that we are too young for that. The industry is too young for that. India will produce the build- best of games in coming years, but it's not gonna happen at least for the next five years.
- 55:20 – 58:28
How should a 21 year old build a career in gaming?
- NKNikhil Kamath
me a hard time, saying that I'm wasting time, and money, and resources gaming. What is the path to build a successful career, path of least resistance in gaming?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Uh, so I'll talk about the path to becoming a gamer. Very hard truth, if you are 20 year old, I have said, said it on record, and I always say it, gaming cannot be the only thing that you are pursuing in India right now. You ought- you need to have a backup. You need to have a backup plan. If you are a bus- come from a business family, you are pursuing your studies, you need to continue doing that. Continue gaming as a passion until you are at the right place, in front of the right person, and at the right stage, where you get to show your gaming talent. When I talk about India's top gamers, professional gamers or content creators, I believe they are nothing. There could be hundreds, thousands, lakhs of more skilled gamers and better content creators sitting at home. But it's so much about luck, that you- they were at the right place at the right time. The timing matters so much. I wouldn't have been sitting here if I wouldn't had taken my, that break for a year from my academic career. Plus that, uh, the game, I started streaming on 20th July-
- NKNikhil Kamath
But if you don't do it full-time, how do you compete with the international ones doing it full-time?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
In- uh, coming to the international stage is a very, very long story. If you are actually getting a chance to compete, that means you have made it nationally. I'm saying to make it nationally also, it's a very big luck factor, because inter... So to explain you what is-
- NKNikhil Kamath
What is, what is talent? I know in cricket, talent is timing, time.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Right.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Maybe you have more time before you hit a ball.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Right.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Body, physical strength, all of that. What distinguishes one gamer from another in terms of talent?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Understanding of the game, the biggest thing. I think every game which is competitive in nature, has so many strategical aspects to it, that you need to give it real time, uh, to understand it. And believe me, a person who gives lot of time... There, so there's a thing called meta. Meta is like, what is something that do- that is dominating the stra- which strategy is dominating the game right now? So how does a meta change? What is that strategy that changes? There is someone spending so much time on the game to bring out something different, that gets him a win condition. Like, you know, he starts winning games, and that's when everyone else adopts it. So I think talent is about that strategical input that you're bringing to a game. Apart from that, if you are playing a first-person shooter or shooting game, reflexes matter a lot.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Uh, reflexes also.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
How fast do you react to situations?
- NKNikhil Kamath
So I had an- another agenda today, like an ulterior motive, almost. Our audience who we speak to are upcoming entrepreneurs in India, who are trying to build a business. We try and give them information about different industries. Uh, we have a grant program where we try and give them some funding, somebody really young who wants to build something with promise. And we also try and connect them from a community standpoint, so we will put you guys in front of a bunch of really inquisitive people, who want to be in gaming and make it a career. So the first thing
- 58:28 – 1:04:33
Where is Youth Spending Most time?
- NKNikhil Kamath
I wanted to know is, where is young India spending time? You guys have the gaming lens. Uh, if I were to make the assumption, not assumption, I think there's data for this, people under the age of 30 in India are spending a lot more time on social media. They're spending a lot more time on gaming. They're spending less time watching TV. They're spending, strangely, less time watching sport. So the amount of time somebody really young is spending on cricket is lesser than it was 10 years ago, 15 years ago. They're spending lesser time playing physical sports or physical activities. Print media is going down, online media is going up, but not enough to totally compensate for print media going down. So if I'm a young 16-year-old boy, I have eight, 10, 12 free hours in a day, let's say eight. How much time of that eight is going where today, where was it yesterday, and where will it be at tomorrow? This is essential for anybody looking to build any kind of company in India, because we need to know where the youth are going to be spending time tomorrow. So I'll go to each one of you, and we don't have to, like, narrow our lens down to India. You could talk about America, you could talk about Southeast Asia. Uh, who would like to go first? Nitish?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah, no, no, sure. I can, I can go first. So I think, uh, if you go back- if I go back to my own generation, right? Uh, and if I go back to my school days, or when I was 15 or 16, or even younger, cricket was where our life would revolve around.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Right? You would play cricket all the time with your building friends. You would watch cricket. I remember in school, I would even wake up at 5:00 in the morning to watch a test match happening in South Africa or Australia before going to school, right? Your whole life revolved around this thing called cricket.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- NMNitish Mittersain
I especially think the younger you are getting, and your question was below 30, right? But I have a thesis here that the younger you get, the velocity or the amount of time being spent on gaming is increasing, right? So 15, 16-year-old today is probably spending maximum time on social media, some on sports, and a decent amount of time on gaming.
- NKNikhil Kamath
The stats say 40% of their time on social media-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... and maybe 30% on gaming, but the rate of-
- SPSpeaker
... change in time spent is going up in social media even faster than gaming?
- NMNitish Mittersain
No, but if you go even a little younger-
- SPSpeaker
Uh.
- NMNitish Mittersain
-I'm saying from experience, I've got, I've got two young kids who are below twelve. Social media, so they're not even allowed to be on it-
- SPSpeaker
Mm, mm.
- NMNitish Mittersain
-uh, a lot, but the rest of their time is only gaming.
- SPSpeaker
And what games are they playing?
- NMNitish Mittersain
And so today, they've evolved. First, they used to play my games, which was Kidopia, which is very popular. [chuckles] So I learned about shameless plug.
- SPSpeaker
I like how you plug in- [laughing]
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
[laughing]
- SPSpeaker
-listing a company.
- NMNitish Mittersain
I'm trained, trained-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Right.
- NMNitish Mittersain
-three years trained no, now. [laughing]
- SPSpeaker
[laughing]
- NMNitish Mittersain
But, uh, uh, now they've moved to Minecraft, right?
- SPSpeaker
Mm, mm.
- NMNitish Mittersain
So both the kids are playing Minecraft, okay?
- SPSpeaker
Sitting next to each other.
- NMNitish Mittersain
They wake up at six o'clock in the morning. I wake them up sharp at six in the morning, where they will leave for school at seven. The first thing they'll do is pick up their respective iPads and start Minecraft. So six to six thirty is their gaming time. There will be, there's a wake, wake-up alarm, you can say. So they'll do Minecraft. But the more important thing is, on YouTube or on the TV, they're on in YouTube and watching Minecraft videos. They're watching Minecraft streamers. Then, my daughter recently had a birthday, so I asked her: "What birthday theme do you want?" And she wanted to do a-
- SPSpeaker
How old is your daughter?
- 1:04:33 – 1:18:30
How to target gaming crowd?
- SPSpeaker
company, and I want to sell... I think the gaming crowd will be three times as big as they are today in ten years. How do you start selling to them? Do you go to Discord, Twitch, streaming platforms, chat boxes?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
I think the best way is in-game monetization. You know, I think that if, if [chuckles] the crowd is shift- the trend is shifting towards spending more time on games, they would want to market it inside the game. I mean, like, if you look at Hero, uh, your recent partnership that you announced yesterday, now I, I'm guessing Hero will bring their bike skins within the game. And if they are targeting it for the Gen Z, the 125R model, I think they've hit the right chord because, like we see, people are not spending time on TV. If people are not watching cricket, and if they are spending time on social media and gaming, then you just split your spends into the two things. You have your ads running, and then you have things that they are spending time on integrated into it. So I believe that is the best way to go about it, but you will have more insight.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah, yeah. I, I have a very good example. Like, uh, my kids love to watch MrBeast, the YouTube. Crazy kids, kids are going, getting crazy. And then, I think he has built some brands. Chocolate.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah, yeah.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Uh, Feastables, Feastables chocolate. They... My kids doesn't really remember Hershey, uh, but kids remember Feastables. So when I went to GDC, just a few weeks back, their request, just only one thing: "Buy lots of-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Feastables [chuckles]
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
- Feastables chocolate," uh-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
... so that they can have it, also, also they can give out to friends.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah, yeah.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
So it's, it's also kind of like showing kind of status, like, "I, I have Feastables," which can be bought from the US, and then give it to friends. So-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
It's big.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Uh.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
I paid, like, thousand bucks for a Feastables. [laughing]
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
[laughing]
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Which tastes the same like Amul Chocolate. [laughing]
- NMNitish Mittersain
[laughing]
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
It's the same. It's same, but different labels and-
- SPSpeaker
Nikhil, I've got a very different perspective. Nikhil, I think one other way to think about opportunity for a young person is, I, I-- and certainly, I think one way to think about it is the current kind of demand side, but the other way to think about it is more on the supply side, and also in terms of new demand. And I think the one thing that cannot be ignored, in my opinion, and I believe we're living in a very unprecedented time, is essentially AI. And if you see the growth of AI today, and we were at GDC, the number of people building tools and capabilities with AI is incredible. It's moving so fast. So if I were to advise somebody younger, I would say that-
- JKJoseph Kim
... in my opinion, I think AI is going to be as big as the internet, um, potentially bigger in terms of impact to society. And so from that lens, I think that you, you wanna be thinking about a cross strategy, meaning you wanna learn AI as a base, but then cross it with something else.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Explain. What does that mean?
- JKJoseph Kim
M- for example, AI cross gaming. So you're gonna learn AI, but then you're also going to develop depth in a, a different industry or sector, so that you can take the AI capabilities and bring that to that sector. So whether it's AI cross gaming, or banking, or pharmaceuticals, or whatever, right? So then you would... I, I would recommend for younger people to find two- t-to find an area of interest, but then also, um, develop their expertise and knowledge in AI so that they can take those capabilities into that space. Um, and then I think besides that, the one other thing that we're seeing is a fundamental shift. And so for people who are watching that are interested in gaming, I think the big shift that is happening is from a development perspective. And it's something that-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Before, before you go there-
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... if I were to try and incorporate AI into my vocabulary as a gamer, as a young gamer, what tools should I get familiar with? What should I learn?
- JKJoseph Kim
Well, I would say, like, at, in the current state, I would probably learn all of the tools, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
For example?
- JKJoseph Kim
So whether it's ChatGPT or Claude 3 or, um, y- you know, some of the newer tools that are being developed using those. Uh, there's, there's a lot of applications in gaming in terms of, like, conversational AI and things of that nature. So there's a lot of services being developed, so becoming familiar with the services and the capabilities that are, that are being developed, but in, on top of that, to then learn AI in more depth. So what is a large language model? What, what are the kind of models that are out there today, whether it's Llama or other open source models and things of that nature? So what, what I would recommend in, for AI is act- is basically extreme depth. Learn as much as you can at a foundational, fundamental level, and then, um, and then again, that, that other industry.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And if you had to name two subsets of AI that I should begin focusing on specifically for gaming, what would they be?
- JKJoseph Kim
Well, I mean, I think the biggest push right now is conversational AI, which is meaning-
- 1:18:30 – 1:23:20
What are Mid core, Casual, Hyper-casual Games?
- NKNikhil Kamath
They say mid-core and core is point four billion. Casual and hyper-casual is point seven billion. Can you explain what that means? Anyone? Sean?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Hmm, yeah, I mean, mid-core is... Mid-core, uh, like, hardcore games include, uh, PGMI and maybe other shooter games and some of, uh, maybe sports games, simulation games, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
So how do you-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Hmm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... how do you justify this mid-core? How do you categorize mid-core, this point four billion?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mid-core games require quite, uh, like, focused attention to play-
- NKNikhil Kamath
And a lot of investment?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Uh, to make the game.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah. Generally, yes. Uh, uh, but there is also, like, big range.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
But compared to typical hyper-casual or hybrid casual games, it requires more resources, that's for sure.
- NKNikhil Kamath
You guys wanna comment?
- JKJoseph Kim
... um, my only understanding of the Indian market is that it does seem that it's highly skewed to shooters. It does seem like shooters are making the majority of the money in India. A lot of the-
- NKNikhil Kamath
They fall in mid-core, in that bucket?
- JKJoseph Kim
Mid-core, yeah. Yeah, um, and, and then it seems like the rest of the money is being made from, like, Ludo, as well as, like, cricket and things like that.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And actually, it's a surprising number for me that mid-core and core market is so big, because hyper-casual is understandable-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Not so big, .4 billion.
- NKNikhil Kamath
But-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
400 million for India.
- NKNikhil Kamath
400 million for India is still... I feel that it's pretty big, that, you know, it's-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Most of it he takes, so [laughing]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. [laughing]
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah, yeah.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Often as a major- [laughing]
- NKNikhil Kamath
What's your market share for BGMI?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
BGMI, I would say-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
[chuckles]
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
-5, 10% ish.
- NKNikhil Kamath
That's all?
- 1:23:20 – 1:30:10
Monetising Game through In App Purchase vs Pay to Play
- NKNikhil Kamath
the three steps that we would put out from the course from-
- JKJoseph Kim
I would ignore hyper-casual.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay.
- JKJoseph Kim
I would not look at it at all.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So say a young guy has done the NVIDIA free course, the Michigan University free course. He's on Roblox, he has learnt how to create a game. Now, when I start building the game, should I plan to monetize my game via in-app purchases versus pay to play?
- JKJoseph Kim
Uh, so it depends on the game, right? So I would say if you're making more of a mid-core to hardcore game, it's generally a heavier IAPCU, and-
- NKNikhil Kamath
What is IAPCU?
- JKJoseph Kim
IAP is just in-app purchase.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- JKJoseph Kim
Right, so not advertising-based. And then the more casual to hyper-casual it is, the more advertising you would integrate into the game. But I think to, to the point on, like, if you were learning AI and trying to figure out how to apply it, you could apply it to making a game. You could apply it to figuring out a completely new kind of game to make using AI, for example, like, where the A... Like Dungeons and Dragons, where the AI is suddenly the dungeon master. Now, it can do all the campaigns for you, right? There, there's gonna be new capabilities and new games that are enabled because of AI. And the third area of opportunity would be looking at AI and trying to pick a specific segment in the game development process, that you can help reduce the cost of or automate through AI.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Explain.
- JKJoseph Kim
So, for example, like, in game development, there's a lot of different teams that do different things, right? So there's engineering, there's art, uh, there's, um, product management, but if you could use AI to provide a better tool or to automate one of the workflows there. Uh, like, so for example, right now, coders can use AI tools to help write code for them.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Like Copilot?
- JKJoseph Kim
Yes. Um, also, AI is being used to generate manuals. Um, product managers can use AI to do data analysis by just dumping in spreadsheets and saying, "You know, visualize some stuff for me."... um, and so there's a lot of different things that AI can be applied to, and so then it would just be figuring out, okay, what is a big problem that I can apply AI against, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Can you give me, like, a low-hanging fruit that you think is an opportunity today?
- JKJoseph Kim
Well, I mean, I can give you specific examples of what people are doing right now, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- JKJoseph Kim
So the, the big thing right now, there's two companies, uh, Inworld and Convey, that have been funded for conversational AI. Meaning, right now, NPCs in games, the non-player characters, so like i- in, like in MMO, you can go to a shop, and then there's a shopkeeper that talks to you. Well, the dialogue that happens often with- wi- whether it's an in-story, um, character or with a shopkeeper that has a very limited amount of dialogue, is w- through, like, a dialogue tree. And so you can use these behavior trees to, like, code what is said and not said, or you could use a large language model and, uh, give the background behind a character. And the large language model, understanding the context of the game and that character that they're supposed to personify, can then just naturally respond to people in real time. So that's, like, one application. Uh, there's other applications where there's... There- there's a company that's trying to automate the art process, right? So, like, um, where you, uh, like, think of a, think of a character or a building, you create the model for it, you put it in the game, and things like that. There are some companies that are just trying to make it so that you do sketches, and then it just automatically goes into the game and completes the whole workflow, right? So there's a lot of different areas that you can potentially apply AI to, and again, this is why it ha- it's like the cross something. So I wanna learn product management in gaming super well, and then try to figure out areas to attack, or I wanna learn art super well and figure out areas to attack. That's the way I would be thinking about it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Animesh, after listening to this, where do you think the opportunity is for someone young?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
I still feel, obviously, this is a very big opportunity. It's futuristic from all I've read, all I've seen. But I believe that if someone wants to build a, start building a game tomorrow, and actually go out in the market in the next, uh, three, four years, uh, that data where you mentioned that, you know, forty percent of time is going to social media, I think that is very key to India sticking to mobile gaming and my generation, people, the younger generation, sitting, uh, sticking to mobile phones. So I think soc- even if I look at my gaming journey and how I got into games, uh, after a break of- break from gaming for a good seven, eight years, I think after class eight, I haven't played too much games until I got into college and had some free time and I was away from home. So it all started with Facebook, and then I started playing maybe a Zynga game inside Facebook, and then on Facebook, I got maybe a recommendation of a Supercell game, which was Boom Beach. And then I went into Boom Beach, but the reason why I started playing, uh, s- continued to play in Boom Beach was there's a big social element, uh, attached to that game where I could chat with different people, make a clan, we could strategize, although it was within the game. However, what happened next is that I took that entire set of audience, we exchanged our numbers within the game, or we went to a Discord server, but then we were always socially connected. We were chatting, we were conversational. If I also look at... So, and that's been the trend in India, at least, which I can say very confidently, that people love playing games, which has an element where they can connect, connect with existing friends or meet new people.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So you're saying not so much mid-core games, but more casual with mobile first?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Casual, mobile first, and ha- needs to have a social, uh-
- JKJoseph Kim
Social
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
... social meeting element to it, where people-
- NKNikhil Kamath
And how easy or hard is it to build that?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Uh, I think it's difficult, not easy, to hit the right chords with Indian audience especially, and with the culture also. It's, uh, like, you know, I believe that there are a lot of nuances that they need to be careful about when you bring the social element of being connected online, and it, uh, I think there's going to be a lot of scrutiny, a lot of tapings that if- when they go to build that game. So not so-
- NKNikhil Kamath
What is a taping?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Sorry?
- NKNikhil Kamath
What is a taping?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
I meant that, you know, there's going to be a lot of problems when they try to, uh, have two random people connect online, because I believe a lot of games are facing this trouble even today, in res- with respect to bullying happening, or happening online or cases that we have had, because of people not knowing each other, but connecting, uh, within games. So I believe that those are the key things that need to be sorted, and because Indian gaming development market is still evolving, so these are a few things that they won't be able to solve when they are building in India for India.
- 1:30:10 – 1:38:40
What kinds of games succeed in India?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
key factor, and that is where I believe that Sean can answer why BGMI is so successful. Like, what are those key aspects?
- JKJoseph Kim
Hmm, yeah, my understanding, I mean, people- different people might have different opinion, I think, about, uh, BGMI or, like, similar games.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- JKJoseph Kim
I think it has very good... Largely speaking, there are two elements, uh, for the success, I believe. Maybe you guys can add. So one thing is social aspects, definitely. Like, it is most fun when you are playing with the other squad members, other three members as a team, uh, which you can keep talking, uh, through the voice chat over the, like, thirty-minute or forty-minute session, uh, which give a good reason for playing another session, another session, maybe tomorrow or next week, next weekend, which that is a one factor. And second factor is unpredictability. Um, it, it is mostly like the similar, uh, elements in many multiplayer games, but I think the battle royale genre itself, it, it has large, open, not really fully open, but large map, like, uh, eight by eight, uh, eight kilometer by eight kilometer. So there are a lot of elements of unpredictability and, uh, less repeatability. So every gameplay feels different.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
... uh, you cannot really make it if it is a story-based game, right? If, if you play 10 hours, 20 hours, then it's g- it's finished.
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah, I've got a slightly-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Uh
- JKJoseph Kim
... different perspective. I'd love to hear-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yes, yeah
- JKJoseph Kim
... your take on, on this, Sean. I don't, I don't know if I've ever talked to you-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm
- JKJoseph Kim
... you about this before-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm
- JKJoseph Kim
... but I believe that games are actually a manifestation of a latent human desire. So I think that people generally have, in their psychology, a need for something.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm.
- JKJoseph Kim
And so, and I believe that games allow people to manifest those desires in some way.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm.
- JKJoseph Kim
So-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Which psychological desire, though?
- JKJoseph Kim
So, so let me, let me give you a few examples. So the, the 35-year-old soccer mom in the US-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm
- JKJoseph Kim
... who's driving her kids to school all day-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm
- JKJoseph Kim
... going home, washing the dishes, doing the laundry, but doesn't feel like there's much progress happening in her life. But then when she plays Candy Crush Saga, she makes progress. She can see development.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm.
- JKJoseph Kim
She can see all these bright lights and, and positive reinforcement. Um, and I also think that for some guys, um, you know, it's like there's a, there's a h- latent human desire for war-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm
- JKJoseph Kim
... to show that I'm special.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah.
- JKJoseph Kim
And battle royale in particular, and I agree with you, right? And I, uh, in, in terms of, like, the variability, right? And there's, uh, there's been studies... I don't know if you guys are familiar with a Skinner box, but-
- 1:38:40 – 1:41:40
Is the gaming industry failing?
- NKNikhil Kamath
that seemed to permeate every domain is, games saw this crazy spike in COVID, but right now the industry is completely screwed. People are getting fired in most large companies, from Microsoft to Sony. Games are getting dropped, and it seems like a fairly tumultuous time for the industry today. How, how far is that true?
- JKJoseph Kim
I, I actually don't think it's true. I, I don't know if you wanna... What, so, like, yes, because of COVID, there was a huge spike, but if you look at the overall trajectory, at least on the mobile side, the, the growth, uh, like, if you smooth out COVID, then there was an overinvestment because of COVID, and everyone was extrapolating linearly, and a lot of additional people were hired, and things, things like that. And now we're kind of correcting on the downside, but, I mean, that's-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
That's-
- JKJoseph Kim
... a typical business cycle, right? [chuckles]
- NMNitish Mittersain
That, that, that is happening in every industry, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
I know Nitish can't say anything about this 'cause he's publicly listed now. [laughing]
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
No, no, he, he-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Actually, actually, actually-
- NKNikhil Kamath
At least honestly [chuckles]
- NMNitish Mittersain
... I actually answer this question every quarter, so [chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. Yeah.
- JKJoseph Kim
[chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
But tell me-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
But actually this happened with India as well.
- NKNikhil Kamath
But tell me this, the money as a gamer, that you made two years ago-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... has it gone down today?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Of course, it has. That's what I'm saying. But it's a correction, it's best for the industry. If this correction wouldn't have happened today... So a year earlier, around 2020, everyone was saying there's a bubble that's ready to burst in India first. But luckily, it was not a bubble burst, it was just a slight correction after the all the global, uh, crisis that hit in. And it's a correction, a correction for the good. Because now, if I look at my side of the industry, esports team o- owners, orgs, people entering the industry with the mindset of making quick money, you cannot make quick money anymore. When... So if you look at my company, when people were over-investing into their business, when their PNLs were in red, deep red, uh, I was spending the least. And today, when the econo- uh, the market is bad, you know, uh, bad, in a bad shape, where there's not enough money flowing in, there's no streaming platform money, there is no direct money from the brands, everyone has tightened their grip, I'm spending the most, and I've been able to sustain and grow. So I'm growing at a point... So I think it all comes from the understanding of how people perceived about, uh, perceived about Indian gaming when they entered the market. "..." What did they want to make? Quick buck because of the COVID ride, or they wanted to build something for the next 10, 15, 20 years? Like, if they had some inspiration taken from somewhere in, from a team in America or a team in Europe, if a gamer entered the YouTube space to build something for the next 15 years, or someone was looking for an overnight success, because, uh, there were a lot of users logging into YouTube to watch gaming. So I think that changed everything, and the correction is for the best.
- NKNikhil Kamath
One thing I didn't ask you is your personal journey. Where do you make the most money from? Is it your content? Is it the people you manage?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Uh, I make the most money from people I manage, the talent management business.
- 1:41:40 – 1:53:06
What’s working for Real Money Gaming?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay, when I look at establishing market size in India, the numbers state that gamers were 400 million in '21, in '23 they are 560 million, going up every year. This doesn't sound reasonable to me. Like, India is a country where 2% of our population pays tax, right?
- NMNitish Mittersain
[chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Like, 25, 30 million people, tops. How are there 560 million gamers in India?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
I think this is RMG and skill-based combined, and I'm not sure, because they would have more data. But I know-
- NKNikhil Kamath
RMG, real money gaming?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah. I think it's combined, this data, because-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
... we are talking about 55 crore gamers, I guess, 568 million. Impossible, but...
- JKJoseph Kim
Well, I think everybody's a gamer, right? And I- one of the things that we haven't talked about is how, because of some of the stuff that happened between the US and China, going back to that topic, a lot of production is shifting to India, right? There's gonna be a Tesla factory in India. There's all sorts of stuff moving to India, which should then enable a bigger middle class in India, which should then enable higher disposable income, which should then enable a lot of people in India to, who, who maybe don't even identify as gamers, to then spend in games, because they actually are gamers.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So what do you think... Okay, remove real money gaming. How many people in India are pa- playing games on a PlayStation or a computer, versus how many people are playing on a mobile phone, and how many people are doing real money gaming, if you had to break that down?
- JKJoseph Kim
It's all mobile, right?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
I think-
- NMNitish Mittersain
So it's all mobile.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah, runs on mobile gaming.
- NMNitish Mittersain
It's on 90, 95-
- JKJoseph Kim
Console- [chuckles]
- NMNitish Mittersain
97, 95.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Console would be the least.
- NKNikhil Kamath
95% what?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Mobile.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah, yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mobile games?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah.
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And BGMI being the largest?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Mobile games?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yes, could be. Yeah. [chuckles]
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Could be, but there could be a casual game like-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Ludo
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
... Ludo taking space. So-
- 1:53:06 – 1:57:15
Games which will be relevant in 5 years?
- NKNikhil Kamath
I want each of you guys to come up with one thing. What is it that will be relevant five years from now? Major I guess. You wanna go first?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
I think that person needs to realize that attention span has already declined. It's gonna decline further. So whatever they are making, it needs to move at a very fast speed for the user. And-
- NKNikhil Kamath
So you both are in contradiction there, because Joseph thinks casual and super casual, which might require lesser attention span, is declining.
- JKJoseph Kim
Well, hyper-casual is declining. I would say casual is not necessarily declining-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- JKJoseph Kim
... but hyper-casual, in terms of these very casual games with a bunch of ads-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- JKJoseph Kim
... for reasons.
- NKNikhil Kamath
In my mind, I think Snake is hyper-casual. [laughing]
- JKJoseph Kim
[laughing] Right. So think Snake, but you're, you- they load a bunch of ads on top of it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah, so that stuff is starting to go away.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. So what do you, what do you mean by, uh, your time-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Like-
- NKNikhil Kamath
... focused on the game going down? How much time?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
I think it's not about the time, it's about the next event that's gonna happen when I'm playing the game. So I think if, if I, for example, if I'm meeting an NPC, a non-playing character, uh, in the game, and the, it progresses my storyline. Earlier, when I've played games like Batman, et cetera, we used to have long chats, long dialogues, that they would just... The story used to be really beautiful. I don't think people are gonna be ready for that in the next five years. The first event, the next event, needs the, the rate at which events happen in the game or events occur in the game needs to be faster. Because I think swipe up generation is gonna take up the world, and it's just gonna be swipe, swipe, swipe. So we need to have events that happen faster. Attention span, games that are fast-paced, very fast-paced. I think that's the reason maybe Battle Royal or FPS games would live longer, because it al- it always involves action. Like, you know, even if they, even if you're standing at a position, you are still, you still are doing something which will help the next event occur. But when you're playing story mode games or normal casual games-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
... you cannot just be moving slowly and wait for something to happen.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Give me an example of the kind of game which will work in five years and one which won't.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
I think, uh, s- there's a game called Among Us. It should still work in five years. And even it-
- NKNikhil Kamath
And that works in five years because? Something is happening.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Because something is happening really fast.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
I believe that we cannot have those slow story mode games that we used to play.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Same thing we established why watching movies and sport is not working anymore, because you're not interacting with the-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Right
- NKNikhil Kamath
... interface in a manner.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Right.
- NKNikhil Kamath
You're watching, and it takes a long period of time.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Long period. Also, I think it could be a major reason why TikTok, and Reels, and Shorts are doing really well.
- 1:57:15 – 2:06:25
Building Game on Virtual Reality vs Augmented Reality
- NMNitish Mittersain
of gaming itself is changing.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Mm.
- NMNitish Mittersain
We already spoke a lot about AI, so I won't repeat that. But also, for example, I'm personally of the opinion that, uh, virtual reality will become far more tangible in the years to come, right?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Mm.
- NMNitish Mittersain
And I've been playing with the Apple Vision Pro and the Quest Pro, and I think now the experience... We've been looking at it for a decade, I think. The company we've been looking at VR for a decade. It was never there. I think the experience has got there, and I think once it transcends a little bit more-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- NMNitish Mittersain
... maybe two, three years down, now you have three big players, Sony, Meta-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- NMNitish Mittersain
... and now Apple, in that frame. I think you will go from potentially playing a game to being in the game, which can be transformative. I know that a lot of people are still very pessimistic, because I think-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- NMNitish Mittersain
... they're burnt for very long-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- NMNitish Mittersain
... on VR and stuff like that. But at least I believe that's the future of gaming.
- NKNikhil Kamath
How does somebody build the proficiency required to cater to games on VR and AR?
- NMNitish Mittersain
I mean, it's the same tools that you're using largely, uh, in the game-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is it, is it, like, a completely different thing-
- NMNitish Mittersain
The gaming, gaming engines
- NKNikhil Kamath
... building a game for VR?
- JKJoseph Kim
You can use some of the same engines.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah, the engines, engines, engines are similar.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. Sean?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm, I mean, Nitish mentioned about AR.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Uh, I mean, VR. So I would, uh... I feel that AR might be closer-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
... than VR. I mean, I also bought, like, different version of, uh, Meta Quest-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
... uh, which I used maybe for two, three hours, uh, like maybe one week or two weeks, [chuckles] and then I, I gave up.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Why?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Because, uh, like, it doesn't feel very comfortable to play long hours, and that uncomfortableness doesn't, uh, sort of, uh, allow me to re-engage. But I think AR, for example, like Pokémon Go, which blend, uh, the reality- I mean, the realistic, the physical space with your smartphone, actually give a lot of different experience, which traditional game didn't offer. I think that can be actually invented in a lot different ways if you, uh, if as a game designer or a game producer, if you can, you know, really become innovative and experimental. So that, that is my sort of... yeah.
- 2:06:25 – 2:15:42
What kinds of games succeed in India? Continued
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Joseph to answer about it. Why is that only BGMI and Free Fire were able to do so big? CODM failed. A lot of other games came, games came to India-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
... tried for two, three months, and failed.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
And why is it only BGMI and Free Fire on mobile games? The reason why I'm asking this, because I don't have an answer for this, except for the fact that I praise you guys a lot, that the publisher took keen interest in the country. You guys did, set up the esports ecosystem and everything else. This argon would want to know.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
I think Joseph might be the best person to answer this question from the developer perspective. I'm not-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Sure
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
... myself, I'm not a developer.
- JKJoseph Kim
Mm.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Uh, but let me just start, uh, as an appetizer, he will serve main dish. [laughing]
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughing]
- JKJoseph Kim
[laughing]
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
So, um, from my point of view, um, this size of a success, and I believe the, the Battle Royale game, uh, has opened up India gaming industry into the different direction, uh, compared to, you know, what, uh, has existed before- had existed before that. It actually happens not very often, and it doesn't really happen with a lot of intention. It happens in a very, maybe luckily or in a very, um, coincidentally. Uh, I think it could happen because of definitely, like, 4G, you know, penetration was there.
- JKJoseph Kim
Mm.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
And then there was no other genre or game which has that sort of reach-
- JKJoseph Kim
Mm
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
... uh, before Battle Royale. And also Battle Royale game, not on just mobile, in console and PC, it has opened up shooter game into different, different sort of, I mean, expanded, uh, the appeal. So that actually coincident- coincide in that time period, and also [chuckles] after two years, COVID happened-
- JKJoseph Kim
Mm
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
... which also amplified that, uh, that sort of, uh, trends. Um, so I, I wanted to emphasize in a slightly different manner for this because-... I feel that if India wants to become a powerhouse in gaming, especially game development perspective, I think young people in India should, uh, try many games and try to make their own games. I haven't seen many game developers who become very successful in the first, uh, title. I think even 19-year-old boy on the Roblox, he might have made, uh, five, ten different games, and then maybe it's eleventh game or, you know, fifteenth games. So I think you should not, uh, try to become perfect to start something. You should try something original on your own, even if you feel not ready.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
So I have a question for you.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
You launched BGMI in India, you did RTV, you have done Bullet Echo two days ago.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Mm-hmm. Mm.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
The spends that you, you are doing towards popularizing the game or making the esports for that particular title popular-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
... will it be even, like, what percentage would you allot to RTV or Bullet Echo compared to BGMI?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Explain RTV, Bullet Echo.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Road to Valor. It's a game that Krafton launched.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
It's a strategy...
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah, and it took off really well, and even I was playing it, and then interest fell off.
- 2:15:42 – 2:25:50
What are 5 Skill needed to make a game?
- NKNikhil Kamath
to build a career in gaming. Each one of you can tell me one. What do we start with? You mentioned art earlier.
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So-
- JKJoseph Kim
Oh, you mean the disciplines?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- JKJoseph Kim
So there's probably four main disciplines. There's art, uh, engineering or-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Programming
- JKJoseph Kim
... development. Um, third is, uh, product management or production, and fourth-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Game design
- JKJoseph Kim
... is design.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Design, yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And fifth is, if I can go with the fifth-
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... is, I think, which is very important, is also your data analytics.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Data analytics.
- JKJoseph Kim
For sure, yeah.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Being able to understand data-
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah
- NMNitish Mittersain
... and, uh, react to data, uh, is very important.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay, so what does somebody need to build a career in art in the gaming world?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Hmm.
- JKJoseph Kim
I mean, get the, the necessary skills. Also, to... There's, there's a big difference between 2D and 3D art.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- JKJoseph Kim
Uh, there's a difference between doing, like, like, concept art versus, like, production art. There's, there's a lot, lot of nuance there within art.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So give me... Okay, let's say there's 3D art, there's 2D art.
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah. And then, um, in within that, there's also, like, are you focused on characters, or are you focused on environment?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay.
- JKJoseph Kim
Um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
And how does somebody learn how to make 2D art, 3D art, character, or environment?
- JKJoseph Kim
Usually there's, there's schools for that.
- 2:25:50 – 2:30:30
Why is Gaming Design difficult in India?
- JKJoseph Kim
is the weakest area in India.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- JKJoseph Kim
So finding a good designer, I don't even know where you go to learn that here.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Why is that?
- JKJoseph Kim
Um...
- NMNitish Mittersain
Let's see.
- JKJoseph Kim
I don't know.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah, no, no, it's because traditionally in India, animation art has always been an industry, right? Even job work for just animation, forget gaming. Similarly, coding across industries has always been there.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- NMNitish Mittersain
But design specifically for a game, which requires how do you make a game that is engaging, right? How do you get the user in that flow state? I think that thinking, it comes naturally when you are really exposed to it over a very long period of time.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So if I am a designer-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... a game designer-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... I will pick when to shoot, when the real characters come in, when the static characters go out, stuff like that?
- NMNitish Mittersain
... Yeah, the gameplay structure.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Is the gameplay.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And then there's not design as much as figuring the flow?
- NMNitish Mittersain
It's complex.
- JKJoseph Kim
And it, yeah, it's, it's complicated, 'cause there, there's actually like... I, I would probably characterize game design in two parts. One is gameplay, right? Which is like, for, for any kind of- the, the way you typically think about a game. You know, for Snake, what do you do? What are the actions? What is the kind of specific things happening? And then the second part of design is systems design. Um, you mentioned meta, right? And so the, the meta or systems part is like the progression, compulsion part, where you might have a crafting system, you might be building a house. It's not the main gameplay. You might play the game, earn some stuff, and then go craft something somewhere else, right? But these two are generally separate, and generally, like, someone great at gameplay design, or in terms of the combat, feel of the guns, things like that, is often different from the person who is designing the systems.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And then-
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
I would, I would say the game design requires, like, creativity most among all other disciplines, and then it can be generally taught, uh, through some kind of apprenticeship, but it also require kind of natural born or educated creativity. So which, if you don't have that, uh, culture of bringing up those talents, then it might not come out easily. So-
- JKJoseph Kim
I, I actually think In- Indians could be great at design. They just need the proper educational resources.
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah, yeah. The bridging that sort of, uh, the creativity in their culture and, and in their brain, and make it... transforming it into the more professional or practical level. That actually, it's difficult to happen, actually, uh, but-
- NKNikhil Kamath
And where can a Indian learn that, a twenty-year-old?
- JKJoseph Kim
They, they can start by designing for Roblox, [chuckles] for example, right?
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
Yeah.
- JKJoseph Kim
On the UGC platforms. Um, but I, I guess one of the drawbacks for India is because, like, most of the people I know d- building for Roblox, they don't do it on their phone, they do it on a PC, and because there aren't a lot of homes with PCs, that may be one of the, the things holding India back, um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Why don't they do it on their phone?
- 2:30:30 – 2:32:50
How to use Data Analytics in Gaming
- NKNikhil Kamath
What does he do?
- NMNitish Mittersain
It's all about, uh, looking at the underlying data that is being generated by your game. Users-
- NKNikhil Kamath
For example, what are the data points?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Retention is one of the biggest ones. For example, uh, if 100 people played your day on the first day, when they downloaded the game, how many came back the next day? Now, once you know that forty came back the next day, which is a good retention, generally, you lost sixty. Then you need to get into your game data and see what are the drop-off points. Where am I losing these users or these players, right? Are they launching the game and dropping off from the main menu of the game without playing anything? Are they going into a certain level? Are they getting stuck there and then dropping off? So there's a lot of in-depth data that you need to get into to understand how you can improve-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- NMNitish Mittersain
... the engagement of your game, right? So, so I think, uh, no game can, unless it's just a hit by itself, by-
- NKNikhil Kamath
And how does somebody learn that, inculcate that skill?
- NMNitish Mittersain
I think it's, um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is it college? Is it-
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah, and, you know, of course, it's, uh... You need to have very strong grip on numbers.
- NKNikhil Kamath
How do you get that?
- NMNitish Mittersain
I'm assuming, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Arts, maths
- NMNitish Mittersain
... you're strong in maths, et cetera.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Khan Academy. [laughing]
- SSSean Hyunil Sohn
There is-
- NMNitish Mittersain
There's also an a- a- aptitude to data and numbers, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Khan Academy teach you some maths.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah, and it's-
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah, it's good
- NMNitish Mittersain
... aptitude to, basic aptitude and interest in data and numbers.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Where do you hire your data analytics guy?
- NMNitish Mittersain
I think, uh, we've hired, and at least for us, many of them are from some of these good business schools.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Business schools?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And how much do you pay these people, typically?
- JKJoseph Kim
Uh, we just have our product managers do it, so we don't have a dedicated data analyst.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah. I mean, we, for at least at a corporate team where we have a few people looking at data of a lot of our, uh, uh, s- studios, maybe 20, 30 lakhs a year.
- NKNikhil Kamath
It's a lot.
- JKJoseph Kim
That's entry level?
- 2:32:50 – 2:37:15
Advice from Animesh to start gaming
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
just give a few advices to how to be a gamer, because there's no rule of thumb how can you be-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
-a gamer. Uh, first, I would say, in India, first thing, backup. It needs to be mentioned that until you have reached that spot, it's always your backup thing that you are chasing. It's a passion project. To become a gamer yourself is also a passion project that you are working on yourself.
- NKNikhil Kamath
When do you transition from passion to full-time?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Uh, I would say your first contract where you're getting paid at least 35K a month-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Rupees.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Rupees, is where you- I can say that you are, it's your profession here on.
- NKNikhil Kamath
You're talking about gamer or content creator?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Gamer.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Gamer.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Content creator, I don't believe should ever chase money or contracts. Build on your own. There is no rule of thumb. Even I cannot give any pieces of advice, because it's so many factors, how good the person is, how creative they are, how fast they go viral, what clicks, what not. But to a gamer, so starts there. Second is your game type, you know, what sort of games you played. It's not always necessary to chase the har- uh, hurdle, be- herd, which is like going for battle royale games or a shooting game. Very fine example, Tirth Mehta, who was also a part of my panel, won an Asian Games medal way back in 2017, Hearthstone. So that is another way. So you can always try to step out of your, of the normal thing and find a different game. Third would be knowing the, knowing... So if you're in India, you want to ensure that the publisher of that game is taking, uh, enough interest in India to build around that game. For example, there's a game called Dota 2, per se. It does not have an active India, publisher interest in India. However, it's a very, very big game outside, as big as the- there's an event called The International, which, whose prize pool go beyond twenty, thirty million dollar for the main event. But if the publisher is not interested in it, then I would suggest don't opt for a game, because then it would be very difficult for you to get into events or represent India at an, uh, international stage. Because you might be clubbed with the Oceanic region or entire South Asia region or the Sea region, which is difficult. Fourth would be if you're going for a team game, I would say, it first- so everyone asks me how to build a team. It's a very normal question if you're playing a team game. I think you do- you cannot just go out and, uh, find other professional players who would want to build a team with you. You just start casually, you get a few gamers, get to know people online, and it's a process. It could fin- the process could be finished in two months, you might not find a team in the next five years. There is no rule of thumb, again. It's just how social you are, how well you are aligned, how well you can talk to people. It's like, you know, those elements come- your characteristic and your personality comes into play when you're finding a team. Skill though, comes at a later stage. Fourth would be, uh, once you are contracted, that's when the real hustle start, if you are ever contracted. But I believe right now in India, Krafton, with this grind that Krafton is doing, they have recognized 256 Tier 1 and Tier 2. Tier 1 means top teams of India. There is no- it's a very subjective thing. Again, there is no benchmark of what a Tier 1 team is. Then there are Tier 2 teams who are trying to move into bigger events and, you know, qualify. So Krafton has right now identified 256 teams. That means there are 256 good odd teams, which means 1,250 odd players are not, if not in a contract, they are doing something in gaming, and they might have treat it as a profession. But I would say there are another thousand. So the number of teams are growing. There are so many teams coming up in Tier 2 cities, a businessman, a shop owner trying to build a team of his own, maybe because his son insisted. So those are the things happening. So, the point is, people need to be aware about, a gamer needs to be aware of what's going on around him. Don't just look at Thug or Immortal and try to be them directly. It was not easy for everyone, for anyone. And then I would say, when you get contracted, that's when you start doing your research. You have to just follow the correct way to move up the ladder. Don't get complacent at where you are. That's what happens. Even in my team, you know, I have had, I have, guess, in last six years, contacted 80 players who have moved on to now different teams. Some have called it, uh, hang their boots. But I think, you know, I always want my players to keep moving on, you know, at a better stage. Even if not better, but at a parallel stage. But I think it's a- a gamer needs to keep moving places. Don't get stuck, especially in India. Don't feel-
- NKNikhil Kamath
I'd love to come hang out with you guys once.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah, you need to.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. Just for fun, right?
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Just for fun.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, I think we covered, like, as much as we could.
- NMNitish Mittersain
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Uh, the last bit
- 2:37:15 – 2:42:10
WTFund
- NKNikhil Kamath
of every episode, what we do, is something for the community, in this case, gaming. So I ask each of you guys if you'd like to allocate money, time, something like that, and then we'll put out a open poll where we will filter and select maybe 20 people who show great potential in gaming. Like what you mentioned earlier-
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... taking them to all the gaming companies in Bangalore, for example.
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
That would be great. Internships would be great. Grants, small amounts of money to give them to pursue any of these paths at different stages would be great. So, uh, Nitish, you wanna start off? You wanna, like, allocate or money or time or anything like that to help the gaming industry?
- NMNitish Mittersain
Absolutely. I mean, as India's only listed gaming company-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- NMNitish Mittersain
... it's our-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Worth 5,000 crores.
- NMNitish Mittersain
It, uh, [laughing]
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
60 to 250.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. [laughing]
- AAAnimesh Agarwal
60 to 15. [laughing]
- NMNitish Mittersain
That's the least we can do-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- NMNitish Mittersain
... and we are already doing a lot of that.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- NMNitish Mittersain
But, uh, yeah, very happy to allocate-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you wanna allocate, say, a amount, and then we'll figure out?
- NMNitish Mittersain
One crore, to start with, but we can double down on that.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Done. Joseph, would you?
- JKJoseph Kim
I think I've already committed to doing that tour-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- JKJoseph Kim
... of some kind.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- JKJoseph Kim
So I'll, I'll do that, and certainly, I think, not at this point until we're profitable, but once we're profitable, we absolutely-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- JKJoseph Kim
... intend on investing back into the community.
- NKNikhil Kamath
But you would be okay with, say, the 20 that we pick-
- JKJoseph Kim
Yeah
Episode duration: 2:42:10
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