Ep #21 | WTF is Longevity? | Nikhil ft. Nithin Kamath, Bryan Johnson, Prashanth, Jitendra & Seema

Nikhil Kamath 0:00 Okay, so what I want for today: A, to figure out what to put in my body, what not to put in my body. The second question I want answered, in this realm of health, where is the opportunity to start a business, and what business should they start? [upbeat music] Ready? Rolling. Ready? Okay, full house today. Uh, thank you, all four of you, for doing this. Bryan, welcome to India for the first time.

Nikhil Kamath 0:57 What is the one thing you're looking at more than anything in India right now?

Speaker 1:02 [chuckles] Air quality. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:07 [laughing] How bad is it?

Speaker 1:08 I can't really see you over there. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:11 [laughing] This is Mumbai. We're mostly from Bangalore, so it's okay. [laughing]

Speaker 1:16 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:16 So what does that mean? So what is the number right now?

Speaker 1:19 Uh, the, the PM 2.5, I think it's one thirty, one forty-

Nikhil Kamath 1:23 Okay

Speaker 1:23 ... which is over 10X, uh, what is reasonable, what, what is appropriate.

Nikhil Kamath 1:29 So what is it doing to me?

Speaker 1:31 Uh, these contaminants, uh, wreak havoc on the body. It can create neurological dysfunction, it can cause asthma, it can cause lung irritation. It just- like, it's whole body damage. It gets into tissues, it lodges in. It's very hard to remove it, so it's not like something the body just cleans it out. It's, it's very hard to remove, so you really don't wanna mess with these airborne contaminants.

Nikhil Kamath 1:54 So if I were to pick a city to live in, how big a role would air quality play in choosing which one?

Speaker 2:01 Close to top three.

Nikhil Kamath 2:04 What would be the other options? What would be top one, two, and three?

Speaker 2:08 Uh, for health?

Nikhil Kamath 2:09 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:10 I don't, I don't think that really-

Speaker 2:12 That makes a difference.

Speaker 2:12 I mean, air quality, water quality, maybe.

Speaker 2:15 Air, water, and food.

Nikhil Kamath 2:16 Bryan, do you agree?

Speaker 2:17 I guess, like, you are thinking through this because, you know, you can filter almost any water and get it to be pure.

Nikhil Kamath 2:23 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:23 Uh, with food, you can grow your own food, but with air, you have no control.

Nikhil Kamath 2:28 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:29 Uh, you're in a system.

Nikhil Kamath 2:30 Mm-hmm.

Prashanth Prakash 2:31 So there's this idea of, can you make at least your home a blue zone?

Nikhil Kamath 2:35 Mm.

Prashanth Prakash 2:36 Right, you can't externally change anything.

Speaker 2:38 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 2:38 So it's usually EMF, you know-

Nikhil Kamath 2:40 Mm

Prashanth Prakash 2:40 ... some radiations at home, and then there is, uh, the air, which can be largely purified if, if you're in a very closed environment. And, uh, toxins in water and toxins in your vegetables. If you can manage these, uh, on a continuous basis in your home, you can at least make a, a blue zone kind of environment at home.

Nikhil Kamath 3:03 So is that what is working for blue zones, they have these three things going for it?

Prashanth Prakash 3:07 I think they, in addition to that, they define two other important aspects, right? One is, uh, uh, how active, uh, they are-

Nikhil Kamath 3:16 Mm-hmm

Prashanth Prakash 3:16 ... through their daily lives.

Nikhil Kamath 3:18 Mm-hmm.

Prashanth Prakash 3:18 And, uh, uh, second aspect that they emphasize is community, right? And how much of, uh, connectedness do they kind of... is, is imbibed into their way of living. I think these are the two other, other than food and-

Jitendra Chouksey 3:36 I think personally, I'm not very convinced on the idea of blue zones. Um, there's a lot of data out there which suggests that blue zones are created, they don't exist. So classic case of cherry-picking. And so what they have done is they have mapped certain groups of population and omitted the same subset of people from the same area, just to highlight that there are blue zones that exist. So there's a, there's a lot of, uh, controversy around it also. So at this point, I'm not very convinced that there are actually blue zones. Do people exist that live longer than your average lifespan? Certainly. Take example of Japan. Um, there are certain places in Japan where they have, you know, even higher lifespan than rest of the Japan. But are there specific, uh, blue zones around the world where there's some sort of a special magical diet or some sort of a magical lifestyle? Um, the data is not convincing enough.

Nikhil Kamath 4:31 Do you agree, Bryan?

Speaker 4:34 Is it okay if I put a mask on?

Nikhil Kamath 4:35 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 4:37 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 4:38 Okay.

Speaker 4:38 Is that okay?

Nikhil Kamath 4:39 Yeah.

Speaker 4:39 Yeah.

Speaker 4:39 Yeah, sure.

Speaker 4:40 Yeah. [chuckles]

Prashanth Prakash 4:41 What is the air quality in New York, for example? Uh, is it, is it... I mean, I never really bothered to look for it, uh, but what is the air quality in New York?

Speaker 4:52 It's, it's good throughout the US.

Speaker 4:55 Here's a fresh one.

Speaker 4:56 Ah, thanks. Yes. Yeah, the US does a good job on air quality, uh, generally. Like for in, in, uh... Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 5:05 Uh, but-

Speaker 5:06 Yes. Oh, yeah, actually, go ahead. Thank you. Let's see, test this out.

Prashanth Prakash 5:12 You feel better? That's... [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 5:14 [laughing]

Speaker 5:14 Thank you. Thank you for addressing my emotional needs. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 5:17 [laughing]

Speaker 5:17 I feel so much better. [laughing] This will block out ninety-five percent.

Prashanth Prakash 5:20 No, but, uh, just curious, I mean, were you feeling something wh-

Speaker 5:24 Yes.

Prashanth Prakash 5:24 Or, or this is more precautionary?

Speaker 5:26 I mean, I feel it, like, it burns my lungs, it burns my throat, and then I also just know, like, these level of pollutants, it really does wreak havoc on the body.

Prashanth Prakash 5:37 Mm.

Prashanth Prakash 5:39 And-

Nikhil Kamath 5:39 Isn't this a tough way to live, Bryan?

Speaker 5:42 You know-

Nikhil Kamath 5:42 Like, you travel the world, you're always on the move. If you were to worry about everything that can harm you, is it easy to live like that?

Speaker 5:51 You know what? In many ways it's easier-

Nikhil Kamath 5:54 How?

Speaker 5:54 ... because it, um, it, it makes decisions for you.

Nikhil Kamath 6:01 ... so when you say it, what is it?

Speaker 6:03 Like, the alma- the algorithm. So like if, if the objective is don't die, then it's just a systematic process of what inflicts damage upon the body?

Nikhil Kamath 6:13 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 6:14 And then how do you mitigate that damage? Like, how do you block it or, you know, how do you mitigate it? And so in that regard, it, uh, it, the process predetermines what foods you eat, if you'll drink out of plastic water bottles or not, whether you pour a glass, if you filter your water, if you wear a mask or not, uh, if you go out and exercise. Like this morning, in the hotel this morning, um, we, we took this air purifier and went to the gym. They have this beautiful gym, and I wanted to work out, but we measured the air quality in the gym are really, really bad. And so it has this filtration, so the air from the outside is getting in, so people are in there doing this really high exertion, deep breathing, and they're breathing in all these pollutants, and they have no idea. The thing is indoors. So like it, uh, it just really helps streamline decision-making across every aspect.

Nikhil Kamath 7:03 And does the mask change that?

Speaker 7:06 The decision-making?

Nikhil Kamath 7:07 No, the quality of air you're breathing-

Speaker 7:10 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 7:10 -significantly?

Speaker 7:11 Yeah, so this will reduce ninety... So the P at the PM2.5, so let's look at this guy over here. It's one thirty-four.

Nikhil Kamath 7:17 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 7:18 It will knock out ninety-five percent of it.

Nikhil Kamath 7:20 Really?

Speaker 7:20 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 7:21 What kind of mask is it?

Speaker 7:22 Uh, N95.

Nikhil Kamath 7:24 Oh, like anything we used during COVID? [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 7:26 Yeah, those were the ones. Because that's what we needed. [laughing]

Speaker 7:29 Yeah, so like a ninety-nine would be better, but we just had, uh, we had ninety-fives on hand.

Nikhil Kamath 7:32 Oh, is that what the ninety-five number is for?

Prashanth Prakash 7:35 It, it-

Speaker 7:35 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 7:35 ... removes that then, that one.

Nikhil Kamath 7:37 Right. Bryan, another question for you. Look at me, look at him, look at him, and look at JC. Who looks the healthiest? Take a minute.

Speaker 7:45 Well, is there data to support? Do I... Is there- [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 7:47 No, no, no data. [laughing] Who looks the healthiest? [laughing] You're all different age groups.

Speaker 7:52 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 7:52 Don't, don't answer. [laughing]

Speaker 7:54 You're baiting me. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 7:58 Come on, who looks the healthiest? I'm not asking for number two, three, and four, number one.

Speaker 8:04 Man, that's, that puts me in a tough spot.

Nikhil Kamath 8:08 Yeah. Hence the question.

Speaker 8:09 Um, upon, upon what marker? So there's like, you know...

Nikhil Kamath 8:13 Overall health.

Speaker 8:14 So if you were to take an aggregate of all health markers?

Nikhil Kamath 8:17 Yeah. Not the markers, the optics of it. Who looks healthy?

Speaker 8:21 Oh, who else, [laughing] who looks healthy? Uh-

Nikhil Kamath 8:24 You can look at him, too. He's quite fit. [laughing]

Speaker 8:26 I mean, most, most people make assessments of health based upon skin.

Nikhil Kamath 8:32 Right. And? [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 8:37 [laughing] It's okay. It's okay, Bryan. Nobody's going to feel bad. So yeah.

Speaker 8:42 No, no.

Nikhil Kamath 8:42 Well, we can't see your skin anymore. [laughing]

Speaker 8:46 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, our skin's like the one of the biggest reveals of health, right?

Nikhil Kamath 8:50 Mm.

Speaker 8:50 Like, you can't fake skin.

Nikhil Kamath 8:52 Why is JC looking down? [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 8:55 I'm, I'm, I'm okay. I'm agreeing with what he's saying. He's, he's right.

Nikhil Kamath 8:57 So who is it?

Speaker 8:58 [chuckles] We're all friends here. We're all... We're, we're making, we're making friends. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 9:03 This is not going to work. [laughing]

Speaker 9:05 Yeah. [laughing] Maybe, maybe, maybe-

Nikhil Kamath 9:07 If I pick the worst, then you would not be making friends.

Speaker 9:10 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 9:10 If you pick the best, you're making a best friend. [laughing]

Speaker 9:12 Yeah. At the end of this, when we're roasting each other, [laughing] that's the time. When we're making friends... [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 9:20 Okay. So maybe we start off where each of you can do two minutes about what you do in life and why health, 'cause I'm guessing Bryan has not got context yet. JC, would you like to go?

Jitendra Chouksey 9:33 All right. So hey, guys, my name is Jitendra Chouksey. You can call me JC. And, uh, yeah, we have a health and wellness company that is in the business of making people fitter and healthier. And, uh, fun thing, I didn't know, Bryan, you were coming here. [laughing] And we bumped into each other, I think, a couple of times. So Akshay Summit, I was there.

Speaker 9:53 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 9:53 You were there. Yeah, and I think Jeff from your team was in touch with us.

Speaker 9:58 Cool. Great to meet you.

Jitendra Chouksey 10:00 Great to meet you.

Nikhil Kamath 10:03 Prashanth?

Prashanth Prakash 10:04 Yeah, I'm, uh, Prashanth Prakash. Uh, otherwise, my day job is that of a VC, right? But, uh, in the last four, five years, have, uh, kind of started, uh, you know, kind of this detour into, uh, looking at, uh, the idea of precision medicine. So which is, uh, you know, um... I mean, of course, there are names like Medicine 3.0 and other stuff, right? So what do you need for that? You need, uh, a strong science institution, and that's where I founded, uh, I co-founded Longevity India, uh, in Bangalore as part of, uh, the Indian Institute of Science, which is the premier institute. And, uh, so they will anchor all the science-

Speaker 10:50 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 10:50 ... around longevity. And then BioPeak, which is the organization that will lean upon that science, but will put that science into practice, right? So and what does that mean to put into practice? Can we be a bit more, a lot like what you do, Bryan, can you be a bit more data-driven, and a bit more, uh, longitudinal in how you work with your, uh, clients? And, uh, number three, can you be more systemic, and s- and can you rely more upon systemic and cellular data, uh, and not just on blood biochemistry? So I g- I guess we're integrating a lot of this into, uh, I guess, a new approach to how people in India can start viewing, uh, preventive, predictive, and proactive health.

Speaker 11:41 Yeah. I am, uh, Nithin. I'm the founder of a brokerage firm. It's called Zerodha. And, uh, also run like a investment fund called Rainmatter. And through Rainmatter Health, we partner with startups like FITTR, [chuckles] and we invest in... And I'm also a customer of, [chuckles] JC.... so yeah, that's me. Mm. And, uh, I'm better known as Nikhil's brother. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 12:11 [laughing] So tell him what, a little bit about health.

Speaker 12:14 Oh-

Nikhil Kamath 12:14 So Nithin is like this obsessive workout guy.

Speaker 12:17 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 12:18 I don't think he eats as many pills as you, but maybe, like, sixty percent.

Speaker 12:22 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 12:23 I would say thirty, thirty tablets a day?

Speaker 12:25 Uh, yeah, maybe, maybe twenty to thirty tablets.

Nikhil Kamath 12:29 And works out-

Speaker 12:29 Not, not prescribed by me. [laughing] Not prescribed.

Nikhil Kamath 12:32 [laughing] And works out for a long time every day, and he had a health calamity earlier this year.

Speaker 12:37 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 12:38 So he had a stroke, even though he was very healthy.

Speaker 12:40 Yeah.

Speaker 12:40 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 12:41 So I'll come back to you on that.

Speaker 12:43 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 12:43 Like, you know, all this work that has gone into-

Speaker 12:46 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 12:46 ... being healthy in Don't Die.

Speaker 12:47 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 12:48 What would you do if you fell sick tomorrow?

Speaker 12:51 So we, generally speaking, uh, I'm really humble about the pro- the approach. Like, the- we... We're probably in the very early stages of health and wellness. We probably know very little, and we'll probably look back just in a few years' time and think we're very primitive right now. And so it's, those things happen, and, uh, it would be expected, like, those things are okay, so we would just, uh, get back to work and figure out why it happened and what we can do about it. But, um, we're definitely, I think, in the very, very early stages of medicine, uh, like true anti-aging medicine. So yeah, I would just take it with, uh, in stride.

Nikhil Kamath 13:31 Yeah. So this conversation is not me asking you guys questions. Everybody talks to each other, like always. So feel free, whoever wants to lead can start.

Speaker 13:43 Uh, yeah, I, I, I mean, I had the same question about... Last October, last November, I did Ironman. Like, I was, I was r- really at my fittest I was ever been. And January, I was met with a stroke. It was, it was so accidental, and it was, uh, it was, um, strange that I had to go through everything that I've gone through this year.

Speaker 14:10 Yeah.

Speaker 14:10 And, uh, and this is, like, really the first time, I guess, I'm in front of a camera-

Speaker 14:17 Mm

Speaker 14:17 ... uh, after the stroke. And, uh, so I mean, I, I wanna ask, as in, how, how have you... You know, even though it's early, you know, you just said that it's early in, um, you know, understanding human body, et cetera, but, uh, how have you... I mean, what would you do if you got a stroke or you got a heart attack? As in, are you measuring everything in your body to ensure that it doesn't happen?

Speaker 14:50 Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm the most measured person in human history.

Speaker 14:53 Right.

Speaker 14:54 Yeah. So we, we- everything we can measure, we do measure.

Speaker 14:59 Right.

Speaker 14:59 Even if the measuring that thing doesn't have a high... Like, even if it's a new form of measurement, like DNA methylation became a new form of measurement a couple of years ago.

Speaker 15:07 Right.

Speaker 15:07 And there wasn't much data to show that it was really, really useful, but we went all in, and I've been measuring my methylation patterns every week for the past couple of years.

Speaker 15:15 Okay.

Speaker 15:16 So more than anyone out there. And so, yeah, we, we take the opportunity to measure as much as we can because we think the long-term datasets are interesting. So, like, if we can find patterns, like what would lead up to stroke, or what would lead up to a heart attacks? And, like, there's the common things you look at, you know, like the plaques or like, you know, other, the basic things like that, but, um, we do try to piece thing, the world together with data more than anything else.

Prashanth Prakash 15:40 So Bryan, uh, how much do you rely on metabolites and, uh, the multi-omics, right? So do you measure certain, uh, uh, you know, metabolites specifically as markers or indicators, right?

Speaker 15:55 We do, yeah. We've also bio- uh, stored in a sample, a whole bunch of samples for future analysis.

Prashanth Prakash 16:02 Right.

Speaker 16:03 So, um, yeah, metabolomics is like a, a new emergent field.

Prashanth Prakash 16:07 Yeah, which I try-

Nikhil Kamath 16:07 I think we- I think for the audience, you have to give context with everything.

Speaker 16:10 Yeah, yeah, fair.

Nikhil Kamath 16:11 If you say, "What is metabolite?"-

Speaker 16:12 That's very valuable, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 16:12 ... I think you need to explain what are you talking about.

Prashanth Prakash 16:14 Yeah. So meta- metabolites are... So when you, uh, actually have, uh, these enzymatic, uh, reactions in your body-

Nikhil Kamath 16:23 What is enzymatic?

Prashanth Prakash 16:24 Enzy- Okay,

Prashanth Prakash 16:25 le- let's start with, uh, what, what happens when you, uh, take your food, right? So when you, uh, take in your food, there is biotransformations that happen in your gut.

Nikhil Kamath 16:36 What is biotransformation?

Prashanth Prakash 16:37 Where is... Your, where your, your gut org- organisms actually convert that food into certain, uh, byproducts, right?

Nikhil Kamath 16:45 Right.

Prashanth Prakash 16:45 And, and, uh, those go through a series of enzymatic reactions. There are enzymes which are also released in your gut.

Nikhil Kamath 16:52 Mm-hmm.

Prashanth Prakash 16:52 And from that, what you get is proteins and these other, uh, um, byproducts, right? So and when you measure your metabolites, you actually measure, uh, you know, um, and, and if you think of this as a series of, uh, steps and in a reaction, right? Your metabolites kind of give you levels of different components in that equation. So by being able to see, uh, not just the end product, which is in your blood, uh, which is blood chemistry measures the end product, which may not always be indicative of what's happening in that process, uh, right between, uh, when you consume your food to the final, uh, uh, product. So being able to measure metabolites is a more fine-grained way of looking at what... It's, uh, it's, it's, it's a more precise, uh, way of looking at what's happening, uh, in, in, in the in-between steps.

Nikhil Kamath 17:52 Is that something that is happening-

Prashanth Prakash 17:54 And, and, and-

Nikhil Kamath 17:55 ... at scale now? Is everybody testing for this?

Prashanth Prakash 17:56 Yeah, you can get it, uh... So in India you couldn't, and that's what we are starting up with BioPeak in a lab. But in the, in the US, I think you can. There are labs now that can do it.

Speaker 18:04 Yeah, we, we start with, uh, like these are- that's a really advanced measurement. So we start with basic things, like if you're fat, you're at higher risk of dying.... you know, if, um, if you have, uh, poor blood glucose control, that's also bad. So you take, like, the things you can say with a high degree of confidence, and you start with those, and you work your way down to say where, like, these kinds of things, it's emergent. So it's, like, kind of interesting. We're not quite sure where and how and why, but we really start with the basics of, like, is, is, uh, getting sleep good or bad? Is getting exercise good or bad? Is eating, you know, like, certain kinds of foods good or bad? I think for most people, that's where they're at in life, is like they- there's... Even on the basic things, there's so many questions. Like, uh, you go out and search the world for health gurus, and everyone says something different. How do you even know what's right and what's wrong? It's very hard to parse. So I think as a society, like, we, we don't really know the basics of health anywhere. Uh-

Nikhil Kamath 19:03 Why don't you tell us a bit about how you got to be who you are? I think that's an interesting story, too. Because you don't sound like a very traditional person-

Speaker 19:12 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 19:12 ... or a normal, you know?

Speaker 19:13 Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 19:14 Something happened there, [chuckles] so tell us. [laughing]

Speaker 19:17 [laughing] Something traumatic must- something traumatic must have happened. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 19:21 Yeah.

Speaker 19:21 Uh, so yeah, I, I, um, I went to Ecuador when I was nineteen years old. I was a missionary for my church.

Nikhil Kamath 19:28 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 19:29 And it was, uh, my first time being exposed to poverty. And I lived among extreme poverty for two years, and I just was so moved by the difference between what I had in the US and that poverty.

Nikhil Kamath 19:39 What era was this, and how old were you?

Speaker 19:41 It was in Quito. I was nineteen years old. And so it's just, like, such a dramatic change as a, as a kid to be in these poverty circumstances. And I thought, "You know what? Like..."

Nikhil Kamath 19:53 And back home, did you come from a rich household?

Speaker 19:56 No, we were a middle to low income. Like-

Nikhil Kamath 20:00 And you were Mormon?

Speaker 20:01 Yeah, yeah, my mom... Uh, single mom, five kids.

Nikhil Kamath 20:04 Okay. So you went from being born in a certain kind of family, being raised Mormon, to going to Ecuador when you were nineteen, and then?

Speaker 20:15 Yeah, and then after that, I, I came back to the US after being in Ecuador, and I was trying to figure out, like, what to do with life. And, um, I just had this burning desire that I wanted to do something that would benefit the human race. Like, uh, the people-

Nikhil Kamath 20:30 What would benefit?

Speaker 20:30 The human race.

Nikhil Kamath 20:31 Right.

Speaker 20:32 The, the people around me were really blue-collar workers. Like, they, you know... Um, they weren't entrepreneurs, they weren't engineers, just blue-collar America.

Nikhil Kamath 20:42 Can I ask why? Like, why benefit the human race?

Speaker 20:46 Uh, because there was, like, two paths I saw. One is you could get a job, make money, and retire. Like, everyone around me had done that. It's like, you just follow this life path. You don't dream big, you don't do different things, you just... You, you're a Mormon, you do life in a certain way, and you retire. So, like, it's a very s- standard way of doing life. Or, like, go out and carve your own path and do something unique, and I thought, "That's cool." And, like, Ecuador was omnipresent on my mind, of, like, these people, just by random luck, got born into this environment and, you know, their life is pretty limiting. Like, it's hard for them to get out of that situation, and it felt like that, uh, it might be a f- uh, a useful endeavor to do something that would benefit these people.

Nikhil Kamath 21:34 Right. So you went to Ecuador, wanted to help human race for whatever reason, and then?

Speaker 21:42 Yeah, and then, so the goal was make a whole bunch of money by age thirty-

Nikhil Kamath 21:45 Yeah

Speaker 21:45 ... and then have liberty to spend money doing something. So I started becoming... I wasn't good at anything, so I thought-

Nikhil Kamath 21:52 Did you know you were going to spend the money to help others before you made the money?

Speaker 21:56 Yes, that was the goal. Yeah, I, I told everyone around me.

Nikhil Kamath 21:59 That's quite rare.

Speaker 22:00 Yeah. I mean, I've said, "I'm gonna- I'm gonna make a whole bunch of money by thirty, and then with that money, I'm gonna do something interesting for the human race, like something useful."

Nikhil Kamath 22:06 It's almost against Maslow's law of hierarchies.

Speaker 22:08 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 22:09 I feel like you have to reach that level before you think of helping others.

Speaker 22:14 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 22:15 You kind of have to, like, be self-sufficient first, right?

Speaker 22:17 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 22:19 And then, how did you make the money?

Speaker 22:21 I, I built Braintree Venmo, a payments company.

Nikhil Kamath 22:23 Okay.

Speaker 22:24 And I, I sold that, and I made three hundred million on the sale, on the sale.

Nikhil Kamath 22:27 But this was what... At what age was it when you got the money?

Speaker 22:30 Thirty-four.

Nikhil Kamath 22:32 Wow.

Speaker 22:32 Yeah. Yeah, so then it was like, you know, "Okay, I said I would do this, now I'm here, and now, now am I going to deliver, or am I going to go buy a yacht and get drunk and do drugs and, you know, whatever?"

Nikhil Kamath 22:43 Did you?

Speaker 22:43 No. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 22:43 A little bit?

Speaker 22:44 No. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 22:45 Never?

Speaker 22:46 Uh-uh.

Nikhil Kamath 22:47 Not, not even the, the medicated, the, the doctor-prescribed, like the ketamine and MDMA and shrooms and...

Speaker 22:56 I mean, so when, uh, when I was thirty-four, so I... Yeah, in one year's time, I sold my company, I got a divorce, I left my religion, and I came out of depression. So all in one year's time.

Nikhil Kamath 23:06 Okay.

23:07 Was the divorce because you got money?

Speaker 23:09 Uh, it was a long time coming, and I think it was the catalyst of the event.

Nikhil Kamath 23:14 Right.

Speaker 23:16 And so it was just kind of like a, a reset in life. Like, it's rare you get these opportunities.

Nikhil Kamath 23:20 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 23:20 And so it was, like, this genuine question, like, "What is existence?" Like, wholesale, "What is happening?"

Nikhil Kamath 23:26 And also, what is money? I keep asking-

Speaker 23:28 Yes

Nikhil Kamath 23:28 ... myself this question. But money is your ability to buy freedom-

Speaker 23:33 Yes

Nikhil Kamath 23:33 ... maybe through a divorce.

Speaker 23:34 Entirely.

Nikhil Kamath 23:35 I guess you got the confidence to redefine and say, "Yeah, now I can-

Speaker 23:38 Exactly

Nikhil Kamath 23:39 ... go redefine myself."

Speaker 23:40 It'd be like, you know, when I made money, I wish somebody would have given me advice of like, "Let me just sit you down and tell you, money is a nightmare." It is, like, on so many levels.

Nikhil Kamath 23:51 Explain.

Speaker 23:52 Like, it, it, um, it warps all of your relationships. It's like ev- every person in your life now has... It's like a, it's like you have three people in the relationship. It's like you, your money, [chuckles] and the person. So you're, like, in this polyamorous relationship.

Nikhil Kamath 24:09 That's a interesting point, that everything gets colored now in all relationships.

Speaker 24:14 Everything. Like, it's like, just like something simple, like, your niece has a birthday party-... and it's customary for, like, a ten dollar gift. It's nice. So your niece is like: "Oh, my rich uncle, he certainly can afford [laughing] a five hundred dollar gift."

Nikhil Kamath 24:32 [laughing]

Speaker 24:32 And so if you give a ten dollar gift, they're like, "He's a bastard!"

Nikhil Kamath 24:36 Mm.

Speaker 24:36 Like, you know, like, "What's he doing? Like, he has so much money, why can't he give me a five hundred dollar gift?"

Nikhil Kamath 24:41 Right.

Speaker 24:41 Or you're out with friends for dinner, and the check comes, and everyone's, like, eyeballing each other. And it's like, "Why didn't you grab the check? [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 24:49 [laughing]

Speaker 24:50 You have the most amount of money." So it's just like it colors everything.

Nikhil Kamath 24:54 Mm.

Speaker 24:54 And then it gets much more complicated-

Nikhil Kamath 24:56 Mm

Speaker 24:56 ... with dating and stuff like that, but it really is like, um-

Nikhil Kamath 25:01 If you could have it another way, you don't make the money and don't get the importance that comes with money, would you prefer that, really?

Speaker 25:10 I mean, I think honestly, like, parallel realities, if that were the case, I would rationalize it in my mind and make a case for it. Like-

Nikhil Kamath 25:18 Would you?

Speaker 25:18 ... I mean, I think in any situation, we're all gonna make the argument that, like, whatever situation we're in now is the best situation, even when it's not, or like, objectively not.

Nikhil Kamath 25:26 But if you were to take yourself out of the picture and think in the third person, a man who made three hundred million and is getting a lot of attention from women, to his niece, to his friends, and importance in that peer group, versus somebody who didn't make the money and is another person, if you had to pick one, binary choice, who would you pick? Whose role would you pick?

Speaker 25:49 Yeah, I'd flip a coin. Like, honestly, I think-

Nikhil Kamath 25:53 Nobody's seeing you make the choice, so you can't really prove a point. You're just making the choice.

Prashanth Prakash 25:57 But, uh, remember, Bryan, the independence that you have now and your ability to kind of, you know, kind of define and redefine and do things your way.

Speaker 26:07 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 26:09 If money... Without money, would you still be able to do that?

Speaker 26:12 So, like, this is the thing where I guess what I'm ca- I'm basically, I'm calling bullshit on myself. Like, I don't care what I have to say about this question, because whatever I say is total bullshit. I'm just making something up on the fly. I learned this when I was depressed. Like, my brain would say, "You're depressed. Life is hopeless. You should kill yourself." I mean, it just said that constantly.

Nikhil Kamath 26:32 What age was this? Was it after, post money, pre-money?

Speaker 26:35 Pre. Yeah, twenty-four to thirty-four. So I just learned through that process to distrust my brain.

Nikhil Kamath 26:40 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 26:40 And so if we talk about, like, um, what are the effects of junk f- you know, of, uh, like, junk food on the body? Like, we can answer that with scientific analysis and say, "Here's the following effects on the following things." Great. If you ask this open-ended, subjective question of like, "What is a parallel life of you without money, which one do you prefer?" Like, we're all just gonna make shit up, but there's no way to base that in any kind of reality. So, like, our answers are basically a mirror of our own psychology.

Nikhil Kamath 27:08 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 27:08 They don't reflect truth. And so I guess what I'm saying is, my mirror-

Nikhil Kamath 27:11 Yeah

Speaker 27:11 ... is I would call bullshit on myself.

Nikhil Kamath 27:12 Or your mask. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 27:15 [laughing]

Speaker 27:15 Yeah. [laughing] Or wear a ma- or I'd wear a mask and hide my intention. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 27:20 [laughing]

Speaker 27:20 I'd hide behind a mask.

Nikhil Kamath 27:22 [laughing] So what happened after thirty-four? After money.

Speaker 27:27 Uh, so then-

Nikhil Kamath 27:27 How did you stumble upon health as a thing or longevity or-

Speaker 27:31 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 27:31 ... to not die?

Speaker 27:32 Um, so one, I, I had started this process when I was depressed. Uh, like, how do you solve a really complicated problem of depression?

Nikhil Kamath 27:44 Sorry, I di- I digress, but before we go there, you're thirty-four, you made three hundred million dollars. Which city are you in?

Speaker 27:51 Uh, that was Chicago.

Nikhil Kamath 27:53 Chicago. You're living in a nice apartment. You get divorced. What is the first thing you do?

Speaker 27:58 Yeah, I moved to New York.

Nikhil Kamath 27:59 Okay.

Speaker 28:00 And, um, I, I learn that I love to dance.

Nikhil Kamath 28:06 Dance?

Speaker 28:06 I've never danced in my entire life.

Nikhil Kamath 28:09 Okay.

Speaker 28:09 I find out one night, I love it. And-

Nikhil Kamath 28:11 How did you find out?

Speaker 28:12 Uh, I was at a club with friends. Like, we were-

Nikhil Kamath 28:15 Drinking

Speaker 28:15 ... we were at a business conference, and they're like: "Hey, do you want to go to the club?" I'm like, "What does that mean? I've never been to a club before."

Nikhil Kamath 28:22 You had never been to a club at thirty-four?

Speaker 28:24 No.

Nikhil Kamath 28:24 I get up until nineteen, because you were Mormon, but between the ages of twenty and thirty-four?

Speaker 28:29 No.

Nikhil Kamath 28:31 A bar?

Speaker 28:32 No.

Nikhil Kamath 28:33 A restaurant?

Speaker 28:34 [laughing] Yes.

Prashanth Prakash 28:36 [laughing]

Speaker 28:36 Yes. That, yes. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 28:38 Why didn't you go to a bar?

Speaker 28:40 Uh, in Mormon culture, you don't drink.

Nikhil Kamath 28:42 But you had left being Mormon, right?

Speaker 28:44 Uh, only at thirty-four. I mean, I left it, I left before, but I was still in the family structure.

Nikhil Kamath 28:48 Right.

Speaker 28:48 But we just didn't hang out at bars.

Nikhil Kamath 28:50 Right.

Speaker 28:50 It's not something we did, or clubs or... Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 28:53 Okay, so you moved to New York, went to a nightclub, loved dance-

Speaker 28:58 It was actually in Morocco. I was at this business conference, and they're like: "Hey, we should go to this club."

Nikhil Kamath 29:02 Yeah.

Speaker 29:03 And, um, I... It was actually, it happened when I was trying to decide whether to get a divorce. And, um, I had a drink or two. Uh, I'd never really had alcohol, and so I felt a little, a little buzzed. And I-

Nikhil Kamath 29:16 You like?

Speaker 29:18 I liked it. It was fun, yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 29:19 [laughing]

Speaker 29:19 It was cool. [laughing] And yeah, it was nice. And, um, I just had this feeling that, uh, wash over me, that it was, that my kids would be better off if we were divorced-

Nikhil Kamath 29:31 Mm-hmm

Speaker 29:32 ... than if I stayed in the marriage. Because the only reason I stayed in the marriage was for my kids. And I had this idea of, like, a divorced household is damaging to kids-

Nikhil Kamath 29:40 Mm-hmm

Speaker 29:40 ... and it's better to stay together. So I was like: "Can I stick this out? The kids get old enough, and they move away." And, uh, just like this never-ending, complicated question, and I had this realization that, uh, like, they're better off if we do this.

Nikhil Kamath 29:54 And now you're a good-looking guy. I mean, not everybody can see because of- [laughing]

Speaker 29:58 Yeah. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 30:01 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 30:01 Have you dated a lot of, lot of people post, post money, divorce, getting fitter, better looking?

Speaker 30:07 Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 30:08 Yeah. What do you look for in a partner?

Speaker 30:11 Hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 30:11 'Cause it's complicated, right? Like-

Speaker 30:14 Very, yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 30:15 I'm very curious, who's checking his nighttime erections? [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 30:19 [laughing] Why is that the first thing you thought of?

Prashanth Prakash 30:22 [laughing] Clearly, you're asking him the wrong questions. [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 30:25 ... he's posting his butt-naked pictures on social media. [laughing] What do you think that's for?

Nikhil Kamath 30:29 [laughing]

Speaker 30:30 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 30:30 He's single and available. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 30:32 Yeah?

Speaker 30:34 Uh, so actually, next week, uh, there's gonna be- do you know Polymarket?

Jitendra Chouksey 30:38 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 30:38 No.

Speaker 30:39 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 30:39 Hmm.

Speaker 30:40 They're launching a market on my nighttime erections.

Jitendra Chouksey 30:43 Wow! [chuckles] And how, how are they gonna c- I mean, how are they gonna-

Speaker 30:48 The-

Jitendra Chouksey 30:49 uh, predict that?

Speaker 30:50 Yeah, the over-under is two hours and twelve minutes-

Jitendra Chouksey 30:52 Okay.

Speaker 30:52 -my baseline measurement, and then I'll measure one time per month, last week of the month. But I think it's like I, I think it's such a cool thing that this concept of... So like you have on one side, sperm count's going down, fertility is going down, birth rate is going down, sexual activity is going down. Um, like all these indicators of like, of humans having sex and, and, you know, like having babies, they're all going down.

Jitendra Chouksey 31:18 Right.

Speaker 31:19 And so this, the nighttime erections is like a, a, a counter to these of like sexual vitality is important. And like sexual vitality, health, fertility, uh, all that stuff. And so I'm glad that it's like it broke through the zeitgeist, that now there's a market on it. So I think it really is a, a really good representation of society, of like, we can bounce back with this vitality and not be beat down all these different markers, which is just like... I mean, the human race survives or dies based upon our ability to replicate.

Nikhil Kamath 31:51 So you think, is this o- one ch- issue of why countries go through this population, or why countries are going through this population decline?

Speaker 32:02 I mean, there's probably, uh, quite a few things driving it, but like, it's just it's a fact we're having less sex, less, fewer babies. Um, like, it's just like they're all down.

Nikhil Kamath 32:16 You're, uh-

Speaker 32:17 I mean-

Nikhil Kamath 32:17 I,

Nikhil Kamath 32:18 I... You know, you kind of are very anal about taking any kind of supplements. [chuckles]

Jitendra Chouksey 32:24 No, not any kind of supplement.

Nikhil Kamath 32:25 [chuckles]

Jitendra Chouksey 32:26 I'm simply saying, like, take supplements which have enough evidence. Like, for example, um, um, I favor more supplements which you have deficiency of-

Speaker 32:34 Right

Jitendra Chouksey 32:34 ... something that you can observe in your blood or on a DEXA, right? But if you're talking about taking supplements that are working at a mitochondrial level, it doesn't have any proof, it doesn't have any validation. For example, if we talk about NAD precursors, today, we don't know if those precursors are actually getting absorbed in your system. Are they making their way to mitochondria? Today, we don't even know what are the transporters that are going to transport NAD from your bloodstream across to cell membrane.

Nikhil Kamath 33:04 Can you elaborate and say what is NAD a little bit? I've tried NAD once, uh, in Dubai, in, on a IV, and I felt so bad while I was taking it. It felt like my chest is heavy, and it was so uncomfortable that I would never take it just for that reason. But what is NAD?

Jitendra Chouksey 33:22 So in your body, uh, there's a process which we refer to as metabolism, and your body produces something called as ATP. So take whatever you want to, whether it's glucose or fatty acids, and we'll exclude protein for now. The metabolism of the process- end result is ATP. And in between, because the process is exothermic, but it also requires... How do I explain it without getting too technical? Okay, so-

Nikhil Kamath 33:47 No, I think, see, there is a, there is an a, a whole oxidation process.

Jitendra Chouksey 33:52 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 33:52 Right.

Jitendra Chouksey 33:52 So-

Nikhil Kamath 33:53 Of how your body-

Jitendra Chouksey 33:53 So you have redox process.

Nikhil Kamath 33:54 Yeah, redox.

Jitendra Chouksey 33:55 So NAD- Thank you. So all the biochemical pathways in the body, they are coupled together, so-

Nikhil Kamath 34:00 For everything, think idiot. Think I'm a ten-year-old idiot with no idea.

Jitendra Chouksey 34:04 Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 34:04 Explain like that.

Jitendra Chouksey 34:07 So your cells have nucleus.

Nikhil Kamath 34:09 Mm.

Jitendra Chouksey 34:09 You are made up of trillions of cells-

Nikhil Kamath 34:11 Mm-hmm

Jitendra Chouksey 34:11 ... and, uh, y- y- your cells have different kinds of organelles. One of them is mitochondria.

Nikhil Kamath 34:18 Mm-hmm.

Jitendra Chouksey 34:18 Right? So everybody knows that mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell.

Nikhil Kamath 34:21 Mm-hmm.

Jitendra Chouksey 34:21 Right. So inside mitochondria, there's something called as NAD-

Nikhil Kamath 34:25 Mm-hmm

Jitendra Chouksey 34:25 ... NAD+.

Nikhil Kamath 34:25 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 34:25 And you have NADH, right? So these are basically electron donors and receivers. So when a chemical reaction has to occur, these donors are needed to complete that reaction, okay? So they participate in something what we call as a redox reaction, and without these supplements, sometimes, uh, these redox reactions cannot happen, and so it reduces the metabolical, uh, the mitochondrial efficiency.

Nikhil Kamath 34:25 Now I understood. Yeah. [laughing]

Speaker 34:26 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 34:26 Much better, yeah.

Speaker 34:26 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 34:26 Yeah. Yes Yes. Mm-hmm

Jitendra Chouksey 34:26 Right? So everybody knows that mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell.

Nikhil Kamath 34:26 Mm-hmm.

Jitendra Chouksey 34:26 Right? So inside mitochondria, there's something called as NAD-

Nikhil Kamath 34:26 Mm-hmm

Jitendra Chouksey 34:26 ... NAD+.

Nikhil Kamath 34:26 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 34:26 And you have NADH, right? So these are basically electron donors and receivers. So when a chemical reaction has to occur, these donors are needed to complete that reaction, okay? So they participate in something what we call as a redox reaction, and without these supplements, sometimes, uh, these redox reactions cannot happen, and so it reduces the metabolical, uh, the mitochondrial efficiency.

Nikhil Kamath 34:51 Now I understood. Yeah. [laughing]

Speaker 34:54 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 34:54 Much better, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 34:55 But, but I think, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 34:56 Yeah

Speaker 34:56 ... the, the added complication-

Nikhil Kamath 34:58 Yeah

Speaker 34:58 ... to that is, it's, you don't know if it's, uh, better to take NAD, NADH, right? Or the precursors to that, right?

Jitendra Chouksey 35:07 Yes.

Speaker 35:07 So, uh, I think there's, you know, a lot of trials going-

Nikhil Kamath 35:13 But, but see, NAD+-

Jitendra Chouksey 35:15 ... is needed very deep inside mitochondria. So inside mitochondria, also you have inner membrane-

Nikhil Kamath 35:22 Mm-hmm

Jitendra Chouksey 35:22 ... which is where primarily the oxidation of fatty acids happen, which is where majority of your fat is getting burned. And there you need NAD, NAD+, okay, NADH. So you can't basically channel an oral intake of NAD, NAD+, make it go through, uh, your digestive tract, and let's assume that it passes your digestive tract, uh, you know, without any problems, goes into your bloodstream. There's a semi-permeable, uh, semi-permeable membrane which it has to cross, and then once it's i- once it's inside the cell, you can't tell that, "Hey, you have to go sit inside the inner membrane in the mitochondria." There's no way. We can't navigate that, and there's no test.

Nikhil Kamath 36:03 So basically, should I have NAD or should I not?

Speaker 36:04 No, I, I... See, there, there's another problem, right? [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 36:07 There's no proof.

Speaker 36:07 You can't measure.

Jitendra Chouksey 36:09 Yeah, you can't measure.

Speaker 36:09 Because wh- what you see in your blood is not necessarily what is there-

Jitendra Chouksey 36:13 Yes

Speaker 36:13 ... let's say, on your mus- in your-

Jitendra Chouksey 36:14 Yes

Speaker 36:14 ... muscle tissue, right?

Jitendra Chouksey 36:15 Yes.

Speaker 36:15 Where you really need it.

Nikhil Kamath 36:17 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 36:17 So just because you have NAD injected through your- [chuckles]

Jitendra Chouksey 36:20 Yeah, most of the people just-

Speaker 36:21 ... your bloodstream-

Jitendra Chouksey 36:21 Yeah

Speaker 36:22 ... it might not be getting to the target-

Jitendra Chouksey 36:24 Yes

Speaker 36:24 ... where it's-

Jitendra Chouksey 36:24 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 36:24 Right.

Jitendra Chouksey 36:24 What's your, what's your take on this? [laughing]

Speaker 36:26 [laughing] Do, do you, you take NAD? So yeah, there's, there's little kids that have a ton of energy, and there's old people who are about to die... little kids have hi- a lot of this stuff, old people have very little of this stuff. And so the question is, if you give more of this stuff to old people, does it help their- do improve their health?

Jitendra Chouksey 36:45 So you take?

Speaker 36:46 I take it.

Prashanth Prakash 36:47 So there is one more, uh, you know-

Nikhil Kamath 36:49 And how do you take it? You take a NAD IV?

Speaker 36:52 No, there's not, there's not good evidence that's a good modality. I take it via capsule form.

Nikhil Kamath 36:56 Capsule?

Speaker 36:56 I take, I take NR, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 36:58 And if I were to buy one, where would I get it?

Speaker 37:02 Yes, I mea- I measure my levels. I do intracellular NAD, I do a blood spot card, and we peg the levels to age eighteen. So if there's like... The, the point is accurate, like, we don't like, does it have longevity benefits? It's still an emerging science.

Prashanth Prakash 37:14 NR is available.

Nikhil Kamath 37:15 Yeah?

Prashanth Prakash 37:15 Yeah. You can just buy it off the street.

Nikhil Kamath 37:17 Like, you can just buy it online or something.

Speaker 37:18 Yeah. Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 37:18 It's pretty, pretty popular.

Nikhil Kamath 37:19 NR?

Jitendra Chouksey 37:19 There's an entire-

Prashanth Prakash 37:21 NR.

Jitendra Chouksey 37:21 NAD+.

Nikhil Kamath 37:21 NAD+.

Jitendra Chouksey 37:22 So you get precursors.

Prashanth Prakash 37:24 Precursors-

Jitendra Chouksey 37:24 So you get NMN.

Nikhil Kamath 37:25 Are you on it?

Jitendra Chouksey 37:25 So NMN then translates-

Prashanth Prakash 37:27 I take, uh, you know, some, the precursors.

Nikhil Kamath 37:31 NMN, you take?

Jitendra Chouksey 37:32 No, no, I don't take NMN.

Prashanth Prakash 37:33 He doesn't take NMN. [chuckles]

Jitendra Chouksey 37:34 NMN is a precursor-

Speaker 37:34 He doesn't take anything. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 37:37 Hey, isn't NMN... Okay, NMN capsules you get?

Prashanth Prakash 37:40 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 37:41 Right.

Prashanth Prakash 37:41 So, uh, you know, just to kind of, I mean, the membranes you was talking about, and you asked about this metabolites, right?

Nikhil Kamath 37:47 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 37:48 So you can, uh, sl- slightly more, of course, this is advanced lab work, and this is what we are trying to do at BioPeak. Can you measure the, some of those levels, which give you an indication, is it... Are you- where, where, where is the bottleneck? In, in that conversion process that he was talking about, you know, as you go through these, they call them, uh, it's complicated, multiple complexes in your mitochondria, right?

Jitendra Chouksey 38:11 Yeah. Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 38:12 As you go from complex one to two to three, uh, there are different, uh, reactions that kind of take you from one complex. If there is insufficiency in a particular thing that can take you from one complex to the other complex, you have a dysfunction, right? Can you measure that? And can you then target and see what do you fix, right? That's, I think, a more precise way of doing it. I think we are getting there.

Nikhil Kamath 38:35 Can I ask another question? Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't, there isn't enough science. Can it hurt?

Jitendra Chouksey 38:41 I mean, look, that is a bad fallacy, and that's not how you base science on-

Nikhil Kamath 38:47 Mm.

Jitendra Chouksey 38:47 Because there's a lot of things-

Nikhil Kamath 38:48 But I, I'm not thinking like that.

Jitendra Chouksey 38:49 No, I know.

Nikhil Kamath 38:49 I'm thinking as a supplement, because I've tried it.

Jitendra Chouksey 38:52 That's the entire supplement industry based on: Take it, it won't hurt.

Prashanth Prakash 38:57 Placebo.

Jitendra Chouksey 38:57 Placebo.

Prashanth Prakash 38:57 You feel good.

Jitendra Chouksey 38:58 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 38:59 But it, it... N-A- NAD+ or NMN-

Jitendra Chouksey 39:01 It's not, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 39:01 - can't really hurt you?

Prashanth Prakash 39:02 I mean, most of the things, uh, that don't, uh, actively bind to, uh, well, le- let's say receptors, and they travel through your bloodstream, if they are not getting absorbed, they pass through your stool or pee. So in, in a traditional manner, because NMN is recognizable by the body, whether the body needs it or not, depending on, it will just flush it out. So most of the time, you're eating it, it's going out. Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 39:29 I think we'll come back to Bryan now. Thirty-four, liquidity event, went to a nightclub in Morocco.

Speaker 39:34 Yeah. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 39:35 Had two drinks, loved it.

Jitendra Chouksey 39:36 I like this transition. [laughing]

Speaker 39:38 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 39:39 What did you do after two drinks?

Speaker 39:41 Um, I, I made the con- the conclusion, I'm going to get a divorce, and the kids are going to be better off, and then I moved my hips.

Nikhil Kamath 39:47 Was there something else that catalyzed that decision?

Speaker 39:51 I just had been thinking about it for years, and it just finally hit. And I moved my hips at that very moment, and I just- it was like this pairing of freedom from all the things holding me captive. And, uh, I, I spent the next... I guess ever since then, it's been like ten years now, I've just danced nonstop. Like, I just love to dance.

Nikhil Kamath 40:13 How often do you get to dance?

Speaker 40:15 I mean, when I was in New York, like multiple times a week. Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 40:20 And where do you dance?

Speaker 40:21 We'd go to these big warehouse parties. So like, you know, hundreds of people, great EDM, and we'd dance. We'd start at twelve or one, and dance till six or seven in the morning.

Nikhil Kamath 40:31 These are the kind of parties with no alcohol, everybody's on coffee or juice kind of thing?

Speaker 40:35 This is where everyone's doing psychedelics.

Nikhil Kamath 40:37 Do you do psychedelics?

Speaker 40:39 I did.

Nikhil Kamath 40:39 Yeah. What kind?

Speaker 40:41 Uh, MDMA.

Nikhil Kamath 40:44 Have you researched the pluses and minuses of MDMA? I read somewhere that somebody is legalizing it for-

Speaker 40:54 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 40:54 ... mental illness in, in America.

Speaker 40:57 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 40:58 Can you tell us a bit more about MDMA?

Speaker 41:00 Yeah, it's, uh, there's a lot of, uh, interesting trials for veterans-

Nikhil Kamath 41:04 Mm-hmm

Speaker 41:04 ... working on PTSD. Uh, you know, also psilo- psilocybin is very promising. So, um, I'd say, yeah, psychedelics are having a resurgence in the US, of interest, where they got, uh, pretty buried by the government in the '70s, '80s. And now I think that there's a lot of in- emerging evidence suggesting that they're interesting alts to pharma drugs.

Nikhil Kamath 41:27 In America, marijuana is legal to a large extent?

Speaker 41:29 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 41:31 Is that something you try or some... No?

Speaker 41:34 No.

Nikhil Kamath 41:35 You think it has a lot of disadvantages as compared to an MDMA, for example?

Speaker 41:40 Yeah, I, uh, yeah, I think, I think marijuana is complicated.

Nikhil Kamath 41:44 Complicated?

Speaker 41:45 Like, it just is, um... You know, like, you take aspirin for a certain thing, um, you can do a psychedelic for a given therapy objective. Um, you can, of course, use weed for, you know, CBD, or you can use, uh, T- THC or other versions for, like, pain management or other things, but it's just complicated. It has all kinds of other effects. And, um, I think people sometimes confuse the specific application with the general enjoyment, so it fills some, uh, broader category for them in their life, and then it could become more of a lifestyle thing. So I just- I don't see many people succeeding, uh, with their objectives on-

Nikhil Kamath 42:30 Marijuana

Speaker 42:30 ... on marijuana. Yeah. It's m- it's more... Yeah, I, I don't know of many high-functioning people who routinely use marijuana. Maybe occasionally.... uh, for like enjoyment, but very few, like, uh, actual regular practitioners.

Nikhil Kamath 42:47 Right. Okay, so 34, beyond that, what happened? How did you arrive at this decision that what you're doing today is what will be the focus of your life?

Speaker 42:57 Uh, it was a thought experiment that I was hanging out in the 25th century, in a few hundred years from now-

Nikhil Kamath 43:03 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 43:03 - and imagining what they would say about this moment right now.

Nikhil Kamath 43:07 Is this zeroism in the dinners and-

Speaker 43:09 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 43:09 Yeah. Can

Nikhil Kamath 43:10 you tell us? I read a little bit about-

Speaker 43:11 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, um, actually, if you guys are game, I'll run you through a few thought experiments.

Nikhil Kamath 43:14 Yeah.

Speaker 43:15 Okay, cool.

Nikhil Kamath 43:15 Yeah.

Speaker 43:16 Okay, so the, there's two rules here is, um, everyone talks-

Nikhil Kamath 43:20 Mm.

Speaker 43:20 - so everyone expresses an opinion. And number two is try to keep your answers short and snappy.

Nikhil Kamath 43:24 Sure.

Speaker 43:25 Uh, because you will learn based upon other people's reactions to this. Okay, fir- um, the first question for you is, if you had access to an algorithm that could give you the best physical, and mental, and spiritual health of your life, but exchange for the access, you did what the algorithm said: You went to bed when it said, you exercised the way it prescribed, you ate what it said. Would you say yes or would you say no?

Jitendra Chouksey 43:49 Yes.

Prashanth Prakash 43:49 Yes.

Speaker 43:50 [chuckles] Yes, yes, yes?

Jitendra Chouksey 43:51 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 43:52 No.

Speaker 43:52 [chuckles] Okay, yeah. Okay, uh, why?

Nikhil Kamath 43:56 What if the algorithm told me to sleep at 8:00 p.m. every day and then wake up at 12:00 p.m.? I wouldn't do it. It comes in the way of my life.

Prashanth Prakash 44:06 Yeah. So maybe one, no, three yeses.

Speaker 44:10 Okay, so no. Okay, yes. Why?

Jitendra Chouksey 44:12 Yes. I think it's fun. You know, if, if there's a cheat sheet that can give you perpetual life, I think why not?

Speaker 44:19 Okay. Yes, why?

Prashanth Prakash 44:21 Yes, because I think, uh, I believe that, you know, when you have a lot of data, computationally, I think algorithms make better decisions-

Speaker 44:29 Mm

Prashanth Prakash 44:30 ... than what you can mentally process.

Speaker 44:32 Okay, and yes, why?

Jitendra Chouksey 44:34 No, I mean, I generally like having, like, set of rules to follow. And, and if an algorithm is gonna give me rules to follow, I just follow that.

Nikhil Kamath 44:45 What's the carrot? You live for perpetuity?

Jitendra Chouksey 44:47 No.

Prashanth Prakash 44:48 No, he's going to talk-

Nikhil Kamath 44:48 No

Prashanth Prakash 44:48 ... about the algorithm. We are on the verge of figuring out algorithm-

Jitendra Chouksey 44:51 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 44:51 - maybe in future, we'll figure out.

Nikhil Kamath 44:53 No.

Speaker 44:53 Yeah, there's no carrot.

Nikhil Kamath 44:54 There's no perpetuity.

Speaker 44:54 There's no carrot. Yeah, you-

Nikhil Kamath 44:56 No, no chance.

Speaker 44:56 The thought experiment gives you no promise. Uh, the only thing that you know about this is you say, "This is my best physical, mental, spiritual health." Outside of that, you don't know what you're doing, you don't know what it's saying, you don't know anything about the-

Jitendra Chouksey 45:10 Best?

Nikhil Kamath 45:10 No.

Jitendra Chouksey 45:10 No, you, you won't-

Nikhil Kamath 45:11 I consciously make choices which take me away from my best physical state ever possible. [laughing] Because I made one last night. I don't see that changing.

Prashanth Prakash 45:20 No, but, uh, the out- the ultimate outcome-

Nikhil Kamath 45:22 Mm.

Prashanth Prakash 45:22 - isn't that goal important?

Nikhil Kamath 45:24 No.

Prashanth Prakash 45:24 If, if this kind of help you optimize-

Nikhil Kamath 45:25 If that were more important, Prashanth, we both wouldn't have gone and had a drink last night with myself. [laughing] Right?

Prashanth Prakash 45:30 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 45:33 I feel like-

Speaker 45:33 No, but-

Nikhil Kamath 45:33 ... the quality of my life is just as important as, as long as my life is.

Prashanth Prakash 45:38 So what if the algorithm, uh... I mean, you could, you know, of course, get the data-

Nikhil Kamath 45:44 Mm

Prashanth Prakash 45:45 ... and then kind of choice, make, make the choice.

Nikhil Kamath 45:49 No, but if I were to choose to listen to the algorithm or not, I won't listen to it all the time. If it goes against the way I want to live my life, I won't.

Prashanth Prakash 45:58 Nikhil, the bigger question is-

Nikhil Kamath 45:58 It's taking away my freedom.

Prashanth Prakash 46:00 But, but, Nikhil, the bigger question is, if there is an algorithm, where is the algorithm? How far are we from it, and how easy or difficult is it? So many-

Nikhil Kamath 46:09 I think that's a digression, though.

Speaker 46:11 Okay, so that's question number one.

Prashanth Prakash 46:13 One more, yeah.

Speaker 46:13 Okay. Question number two: um, let's imagine we just... the twen- the people who exist in the 25th century, they just watched this conversation. They heard me ask you the question, and they heard your responses. What do they say about your morals, your values, your ethics, your characteristics of intelligence? What do they say about you in this time and place?

Jitendra Chouksey 46:41 Yeah, I think four of us would look very progressive, and Nikhil would be- [laughing] - quite being a pain in the ass. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 46:47 Most evolved thinkers I have seen, I feel are not there today. They were there in the past, because in the past we didn't look at vocation or work like we do today. There were professional philosophers and people who could devote a life to that. As you go higher up in the la- ladder of evolution, I think you ask more first-principle questions of: What is the point of life? Get more nihilistic in nature. Ask yourself whether you want to live in the first place or not, much less, how do I extend if it is a miserable life, a little bit longer?

Speaker 47:27 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 47:28 And how do I make my life more miserable in order to achieve that? So I'm assuming somebody in the 25th century is more evolved than I am, and I don't think evolution generally happens forward. It also can happen backward.

Prashanth Prakash 47:42 So it could also be possible, Nikhil, that at that point in time, uh, you know, people are more, uh, you know, uh, following, uh, these algorithmic directions-

Nikhil Kamath 47:56 Mm

Prashanth Prakash 47:56 ... because they, again, are focused on an outcome.

Nikhil Kamath 48:01 But he's not promising an outcome.

Prashanth Prakash 48:03 No, no.

Jitendra Chouksey 48:03 And, and, Nikhil, what Nikhil is saying is that the progress doesn't happen linearly. Historically, if we, if we look at the last couple of centuries, it seems like it has happened in a linear manner. But what he's saying is, we are at a point where evolution and devolution both seems quite plausible.

Nikhil Kamath 48:18 No, what I'm saying is evolution is not necessarily how we think evolution is going to be.

Prashanth Prakash 48:24 True.

Nikhil Kamath 48:25 Evolution could be different.

Prashanth Prakash 48:26 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 48:27 People in the 25th century could be evolved in a different manner.

Jitendra Chouksey 48:31 What, what do you think?

Speaker 48:33 I'll tell you what I think after. So you guys think they would say what? So you said that you would- that there was a, a few evolved, a few-

Jitendra Chouksey 48:41 There's a, the, the-

Prashanth Prakash 48:42 Yeah, yeah, I want to take my answer now. I think based on what Nikhil said, I, I do feel that, uh-

Jitendra Chouksey 48:48 ... my response was purely if we were progressing-

Speaker 48:51 Yeah

Jitendra Chouksey 48:51 -in a, in a linear fashion, but now I'm not sure what they'll say.

Speaker 48:54 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 48:55 Not too sure.

Prashanth Prakash 48:56 I think, uh, they'll say that, uh, um, maybe, uh, they'll know a lot more about, uh, uh, why certain things need to be done or not done, right? So they'll think that we probably were, uh, not, not really thoughtful in just saying that we'll follow the algorithm.

Speaker 49:15 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah?

Speaker 49:18 No, I, I, I would say, I, I would, I would think they will think that person's being stupid. This fellow saying no is, is maybe a stupid kind of a decision.

Speaker 49:29 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 49:30 Yeah. Uh, who's saying no?

Speaker 49:32 Uh?

Prashanth Prakash 49:32 Saying-

Speaker 49:33 No, no, I mean, uh, I mean, future. In the future, the people looking back will think whoever said no to it as being stupid.

Nikhil Kamath 49:42 If the algorithm does not promise immortality in a length, in a way, I feel like there are many algorithms out there already today with no definitive fixed outcome in place. We are voluntarily choosing not to follow it, each and every one of us. I don't see why the 25th century people will not be like that.

Speaker 50:04 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 50:04 I think human mentality is human mentality. Psychology of people will not change. All humans, in my opinion, outside of conditioning and conforming, pick pleasure. Shorter-term pleasure is more valuable than middle-term pleasure, and that in turn is more valuable than far-off pleasure.

Speaker 50:25 But, but, but do you think 25th century will, will think as drinking for pleasure?

Nikhil Kamath 50:32 I feel like we maximize pleasure more today than maybe the Greeks did 2,000 years ago. So why will it change in 500 years?

Prashanth Prakash 50:39 But Nikhil, there, there's a reason why it will change, right?

Nikhil Kamath 50:41 Mm.

Prashanth Prakash 50:41 So we have this idea of agentic co-pilots today that help us from the outside.

Nikhil Kamath 50:48 Mm-hmm.

Prashanth Prakash 50:48 Right? And, and we have been kind of independent in that sense from external influences, so to speak, right? But if you had that chip in your head, which is driving, you know, your thought process, right?

Nikhil Kamath 51:06 I don't think agents and-

Prashanth Prakash 51:06 What, what, what happened-

Nikhil Kamath 51:08 I don't think agents and co-pilots are thinking for us.

Prashanth Prakash 51:11 No, no, they might start, they, they might start influencing your thinking, I'm saying. Why not, right? That didn't exist, uh, you know, the 10, 20, 30 million years before.

Nikhil Kamath 51:20 Mm.

Prashanth Prakash 51:21 But why would we think that, uh, you know, in the future, the way we think and the way we get influenced will be the same way it happened-

Nikhil Kamath 51:30 Can I tell you why?

Prashanth Prakash 51:31 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 51:31 'Cause if there is AGI, and there is a chip-

Prashanth Prakash 51:35 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 51:35 ... which thinks better and-

Prashanth Prakash 51:36 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 51:37 ... not just executes for us better-

Prashanth Prakash 51:40 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 51:40 ... or helps us, but thinks-

Prashanth Prakash 51:41 Correct

Nikhil Kamath 51:41 ... for all of us, it will soon-

Prashanth Prakash 51:42 Th- thinks for you specifically, let's say

Nikhil Kamath 51:44 ... it will soon get democratized, and we all will have the same chip. We'll again go back to the innate cardinal need for a man to distinguish himself from the peer. So you would do what is against the algorithm to find your identity versus following the algorithm.

Prashanth Prakash 51:58 But I think where that would evolve, I'm saying, is undeterministic.

Nikhil Kamath 52:02 Yeah, agreed.

Prashanth Prakash 52:03 So, so in a sense, I'm saying maybe, uh, my answer there would be, if I could rephrase, is that we just can't say because we don't know what somebody's thought process would be.

Nikhil Kamath 52:14 I'm changing your answers one by one. [laughing]

Speaker 52:16 Yeah, yeah. [laughing]

Speaker 52:18 Okay, so-

Jitendra Chouksey 52:19 On the, on the alcohol point, I have to point out that the Greeks and Romans didn't long-- see, live long enough to see the consequences of, uh, you know, drinking as much as the people of today are.

Nikhil Kamath 52:27 Not alcohol. Not alcohol. I'm not talking about alcohol. I'm talking about-

Speaker 52:32 No, but, but I was talking about alcohol. Uh, saying in the 25th century, why would someone think you need alcohol for pleasure?

Nikhil Kamath 52:42 No, but would you let an algorithm tell you that you should do this and should not do this, is the-

Speaker 52:49 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 52:49 ... question.

Prashanth Prakash 52:49 But I think it's very possible that-

Nikhil Kamath 52:52 The answer to that is-

Prashanth Prakash 52:52 ... that could be a scenario, is what I'm saying. Because we don't know how and what will control our thought process in that context.

Nikhil Kamath 52:59 Yeah, in my mind, it takes away individuality from it.

Prashanth Prakash 53:01 Maybe. Maybe that's how we will become. I'm saying that-

Speaker 53:04 [chuckles]

Prashanth Prakash 53:05 ... it's, it's a possibility.

Nikhil Kamath 53:06 Yeah.

Speaker 53:06 All right, so where we've been in the, in these two thought experiments is the first question, uh, was purposefully provocative and open-ended, right? You're given this, this, uh, binary decision. Will you say yes or no to an algorithm? You're giving, given very little information, so you have to, uh, in that process, you have to say, "Okay, complicated situation." You went into your mind, and you probed the database of ideas you have. Like, how do I understand reality? You could pull any model you want, and each of you chose a model of reality and said, "Here's my model of reality and my rationale." All right, but you basically showed your models of reality through your responses. The second question, [lips smack] all right, was a similar experience, where you confronted a question with, uh, a now a reflective tone, where you're looking back on your model. So in the first one, you were very confident, like, "I'm going to do this for the following reasons." This one, you're not quite so sure, right? 'Cause you-- we know from our historical perspective, we look back at previous generations, we think, "Ah, they weren't as advanced as we are. They didn't know things we know, so we know more than them. Like, we may be a bit more advanced." And we imagine it's possible that future generations will be more advanced than us, and we think we might be humble a little bit to say, like, "Maybe we are primitive in certain ways." So in two thought experiments, you go from a high degree of confidence, of knowing, to a less degree of confidence and more that you may not know. So just keep that in mind. All right,

Speaker 54:30 third thought experiment. So when I, um, try to assess planet Earth right now, and I try to quiet my mind and acknowledge-- try to identify what is really happening on the planet, I think there's only one thing going on: we're giving birth to super intelligence. Nothing else matters besides that.... we're giving birth to a form of intelligence that's gonna change our existence unfathomably, and in, and in time frames which are hard for us to understand. So as a species, we have this really pressing problem: what do you do when you give birth to superintelligence? Now, if you pose this question to China, they've got an answer. If you pose the question to the US, they kind of have an answer, but the Op- the OpenAI has an answer, and, and Anthropic has a different answer, and Facebook's open model has a different answer. And if you pose this question to Israel, they have ideas. If you ask i- an ideological group, "What do you want to do with it?" They have certain ideas. So we have different people with different ideas all over the world, eight billion of us, and they have different ideas on how they want to use superintelligence: for war, for money, for status, for power, for sex. So a legitimate question, when you're giving birth to an intelligence this powerful, what do we do? And this is not a question of, like, what ought we to do, this is, like, a legit question. We're a team, we're planning, what are we going to do in this moment?

Prashanth Prakash 55:51 The only thought that I- comes to me is that hopefully it's not about what... I mean, of course, a lot of better things can happen, but it does not lead to a dystopian situation and, uh, uh, you know, k- kind of, uh, uh, uh, existential human race kind of situation is what comes to mind for me.

Speaker 56:23 Yeah?

Prashanth Prakash 56:24 That because you don't know where that superintelligence will actually end.

Speaker 56:28 Yeah. So what do we do?

Prashanth Prakash 56:30 So you, you need to, uh, in my mind, uh, you know, uh, govern- I mean, have, have as much systems to govern the su- superintelligence as, uh... And th- that the governance systems should evolve as, uh, in step with, uh, how fast the superintelligence evolves.

Speaker 56:53 Whose, whose governance systems?

Prashanth Prakash 56:56 Whatever that avoids that, that situation of, uh, humanity being, uh, the whatever, uh, d- d- just destroyed at some level, right?

Speaker 57:07 Who do we call?

Prashanth Prakash 57:09 So we'll have to figure that out, right? We'll have to figure that out because there is, there is everybody working on, uh, birthing that superintelligence.

Speaker 57:17 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 57:17 Are there enough people working on saying, you know, "How do you manage the superintelligence?"

Speaker 57:22 Yeah. So what do you think we should do?

Prashanth Prakash 57:24 I think we should put enough effort on, uh... I mean, as, as, uh, uh, you know, in terms of resources and, uh, uh, you know, putting people's capabilities behind, uh, you know, this, this, this aspect-

Speaker 57:39 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 57:39 ... this dimension. I think, uh, there has to be a little bit of, uh, of, of refocus and shift.

Speaker 57:46 Who does that?

Prashanth Prakash 57:48 I, I think, um, in, in my mind, it's a, it's a collective, uh, global effort.

Speaker 57:54 And who's in charge?

Prashanth Prakash 57:56 I'm- whoever is... I mean, today we are not nuking ourselves, right? Everybody's- I mean, everybody can nuke everybody, but we're not nuking it, uh, nuking each other. So I think the same systems that govern that, uh-

Speaker 58:09 So you, you think the status quo will take care of it?

Prashanth Prakash 58:11 No, no. I'm, I'm saying the status quo is a starting point.

Speaker 58:14 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 58:15 Right? With the absence of anything else, I'm saying that's where I would start.

Speaker 58:19 Okay. Others, what do yous, what do you think we do?

Speaker 58:22 I don't know. I don't know if we have control to do anything much. As in, the fact that there's US and China, I mean-

Speaker 58:32 Yeah

Speaker 58:32 ... how do you get them both to... You know, they're gonna compete a way to, to, you know, to build the superintelligent whatever. So, so I don't know. I, I never thought about it, but, but I don't think [chuckles] we can do anything.

Speaker 58:50 Yeah. Okay, fair. Prash?

Jitendra Chouksey 58:52 Yeah, I, I think it's gonna be a reactive response because it's growing in an unplanned manner.

Speaker 58:58 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 58:58 I mean, if people can't put a timeline around when AGI is gonna be available, and we are so close to, uh, being there, as some prominent people have pointed out. Um, so if that's unplanned, I don't think anybody can plan a response now, so it's going to be reactive response.

Speaker 59:15 Yeah. Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 59:17 I feel like we use it to increase productivity and solve problems wherever we can-

Speaker 59:23 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 59:24 ... including the problem of health. And like many innovations before it, it runs its course.

Speaker 59:31 So similar pattern, like, you just think like-

Nikhil Kamath 59:33 Yeah.

Speaker 59:34 So it's like two, two patterns, like, we can't really do anything. You guys are, like, kind of it's like, "We'll figure it out."

Nikhil Kamath 59:38 I feel like everything evolves, and we've not had much control with any of the evolution that has happened up until now.

Speaker 59:46 But-

Nikhil Kamath 59:46 Why do we foresee controlling something that's happening tomorrow?

Speaker 59:49 But up until now, it's, it's not been a superintelligent being. It's, it's, it's about, you know, things were under your control. But you're talking about something, some superintelligent being, you know, so, which can, which can think for its own self.

Speaker 1:00:09 Yeah, so-

Prashanth Prakash 1:00:09 I also have-

Speaker 1:00:10 ... which, which one becomes real then, right? Are, are human beings real, or is superintelligence real then? You don't know.

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:16 Everything is real. Everything that exists is real.

Prashanth Prakash 1:00:19 No, but, but, but, you know, yeah, it's, it's everything that exists is real, but then which becomes, uh, any... See, that, that-

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:26 Which becomes organic is maybe the question. The humans. I feel like I did a long conversation about this just recently with the Meta Yann LeCun. His form of thinking is LLMs, generative AI, are nowhere close to AGI.

Prashanth Prakash 1:00:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:46 They're a long, long way away.

Prashanth Prakash 1:00:47 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:47 It's a completely different tact of AI which can get into AGI. All kinds of intelligence that we have today is narrow.... a car being able to drive itself is narrow intelligence.

Speaker 1:00:57 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:57 Uh, a robot being able to operate on somebody is, again, a narrow kind of intelligence. If we have an intelligence which can combine many of these narrow intelligences right now, I feel like we use it. I, I also feel like in this conversation, it's very important to define what we mean as intelligence. I don't think anybody has the right definition. They all have different definitions. By virtue of having different definitions, they can't have the right one. So there's too many open variables in this, but if I were to like super, superimpose my top-down thinking on all of those variables, I would say that it will evolve like everything else has evolved.

Speaker 1:01:41 Yeah. So can I-

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:41 Like you said, somebody made a gun when we were punching each other, and today, somebody has a gun, somebody does not, but the world is moving on.

Speaker 1:01:49 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:49 We're all dead.

Speaker 1:01:50 So can I summarize this conversation, this part, this question, and say we have no idea?

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:55 Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:56 As a species-

Seema Kamath 1:01:57 Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:57 -we have-

Seema Kamath 1:01:58 We have no idea.

Speaker 1:01:58 No idea.

Seema Kamath 1:01:58 I think that's a fair thing.

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:59 Yeah.

Speaker 1:02:00 Like, not even a start-

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:01 Yeah [chuckles]

Speaker 1:02:01 ... not even a starting point.

Seema Kamath 1:02:02 Because I think, uh, I-- what Nikhil was saying, we don't know what is super intelligence, I think even more fundamentally.

Speaker 1:02:08 Yeah.

Seema Kamath 1:02:09 Right? What will be the form of that pure super intelligence?

Speaker 1:02:12 So can I pattern match that in the first question that I posed to you, if you had access to an algorithm, you went to your database and said: "How do I understand the world?" You surveyed the, the models of your reality, and you said, "I'll choose that one," and you mapped it onto the answer. This was the same pattern, right? I gave you a question that is inherently very complicated and very real. You did the same thing. You went to your database of, of knowledge and said: "How do I understand reality?" And you mapped the model onto reality, and you expressed the same degree of confidence, right? Like, there-- no one here said, "I don't know." It was like, "Actually, I know, and let me just tell you how this is gonna work." Right, so we mapped artificially some degree of confidence onto a question we have no idea what to do as a species. There's no plan. And so, uh, I wanna, like, suggest that

Speaker 1:03:00 we need a plan, and there's only one plan that I know of that actually can be equal to this moment, and it's Don't Die. So Don't Die is a philosophical framework. It's an economic plan, it's political, it's moral, it's social, and it is don't die individually, don't kill each other, don't kill the planet, and align AI with Don't Die. That Don't Die is the most played game by every, every human on this planet, every second of every day. It is our zeroth order priority every second, to not die. Every breath we take, all of our metabolic energy is going to not dying in this moment. That's true for all of biology, too, most of biology. And so Don't Die is the single thing that every human can agree upon. Above Don't Die, we branch off into billions of different directions, and we have all kinds of different opinions about everything. So Don't Die is what I've been trying to do for the past four years, is I've tried to say what I want to become the most Don't Die person in human history. So how do you do that? You would say, "I'm going to measure every way I can, this biological fun- this, uh, me, every organ, every biological process." Take all the science you can, apply all the science, and say, "What did you get?" Look at the data, and then repeat that. Measurement, science, data. Measurement, science, data, and do it again and again and again till you find that path of, like, what works, what doesn't work. Now, the same algorithm would work for planet Earth. You say, "How could Earth be a sustainable biosphere for us as a species?" You measure the Earth with billions of data points. You say, "I have a hypothesis on what a good biosphere looks like." You run the experiment, you get data. Same thing, science, protocol, data. And so it's the same thing again and again. Don't Die is, uh, numerical in value. So just like I can measure my speed of aging or, uh, the age of a, of bio-- of an organ, you could say, what is the die score of a ch- of a child's school lunch? So in America, an, a common school lunch is a piece of pizza, chocolate milk, and canned vegetables. So, like, we know that's not a metabolically optimized meal necessarily. We could probably assign it a die score. Like, when a child consumes that, what is it doing for its health and wellness? You could also say, you can imagine this being a political sit- situation where a politician is saying: I want to be elected because I give my constituents the best water, air, medical services, right? It's a political system built upon Don't Die. It's numerical. And so I propose that Don't Die is the singular thing we focus on as a species, and specifically, that we have power, that by 2027, the same time when we think that these AI agents will be as good as our best AI researchers, that there's a billion of us around the world that are practicing Don't Die economically, politically, religiously, morally, socially, ethically, all the above. What do you think about that?

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:56 Can I ask to what end? What is the point of life?

Speaker 1:06:02 So that question is a luxury that one can ask when you're not dead.

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:07 Mm-hmm. Agreed. But if you were to take your s- I can't use the word soul, but take your, uh, mind out of your body, and if you have to compare and gauge two lives, one very happy, fulfilling fifty-year lifespan and one less fun eighty-year lifespan, if your mind had to make a choice, which life should it pick? What is the point of life?

Speaker 1:06:40 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:40 What is the meaning of it?

Speaker 1:06:41 So that quest-

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:42 Don't Die depends on that, in my opinion.

Speaker 1:06:45 So that question has probably produced more murder than any question in, in history. And the question is basically, do you agree or disagree with this concept? Like, humans murder each other when we disagree over concepts.... and so the point of Don't Die is Don't Die is the only thing in existence we agree upon.

Prashanth Prakash 1:07:07 I mean-

Speaker 1:07:07 Everything else, we branch and we kill each other.

Prashanth Prakash 1:07:10 When, when you think about it, humans-

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:12 You're, you're not saying don't kill others, you're saying don't die. What if-

Speaker 1:07:15 Don't die... Well, don't die, don't kill each other.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:17 What if tomorrow it goes to a point, I'm just extrapolating here-

Speaker 1:07:19 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:20 ... that for you not to die, you have to, like, eat Prashanth's heart or something like that? What happens then?

Speaker 1:07:25 Yeah, so the second rule is don't kill each other. So first one is don't die, second is don't kill each other, third is you can't destroy the planet. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 1:07:31 [laughing] Yes, I'm safe. He has a second rule.

Speaker 1:07:34 Second rule, and the fourth is align AIs don't die. So, like, basically, we humans, we can't resolve conflict with death. That's not an option. You can't kill each other to solve an argument.

Prashanth Prakash 1:07:47 Bryan-

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:47 What if you diminish the quality of his life? I'm just extrapolating, because Don't Die in isolation, I think, needs ten other questions answered around it.

Speaker 1:07:55 Sure. So it's a lot like democracy, when the US was thirteen colonies and, and they were ruled by the British. The US said: "We want to do our own thing, we want to elect our own officials, we want to govern ourselves like we want." Um, at that point, they did not have democracy solved. They didn't know how to do states' rights, federal rights, they didn't understand how to... What, what do you do with someone who's been committed for a crime? Can they still vote or not? Like, there were thousands and thousands of questions that are unresolved. The US is still fighting about democracy. Two hundred years later, still a, a constant debate. Don't Die is the same way. Like, it's not that we have this solved ethically and morally, it's that you're pointing in the right direction. And so if you look at it from the 25th century, like, you really try to pull yourself out of the moment, Don't Die is a contemplation that when an intelligent species, when Homo sapiens gives birth to superintelligence, what do you do? Right, so, like, right now, we're in this very serious complication, and we just had this conversation where it's like, we don't know. So if you go out and you say, "Hey, democracy, help us out," or, "Hey, capitalism, do you have any answers?" Like, "Hey, Islam, hey, Christianity," like, "Hey, Buddhism, who can help us solve this puzzle?" Like, what do we practically do?

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:00 What is the puzzle? What is the problem you're trying to solve?

Speaker 1:09:02 What do we do when you're giving birth to a superintelligence? When you're giving birth to a form of intelligence that exceeds you in every capacity.

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:09 Are you saying Don't Die in relation to that?

Speaker 1:09:12 Exactly. I'm saying Don't Die is the practical, moral, ethical, social, philosophical, economic, political framework of what we do as a species when you give birth to superintelligence.

Prashanth Prakash 1:09:23 So is that just a different way of saying, you know, um, let's improve the quality of life of everybody on this planet? How is it different from that?

Speaker 1:09:35 Uh, it's, so it, it's both a, a negative statement and a positive statement, right? So a negative statement is that if, if the, if the US... So whoever acquires superintelligence, they're probably not gonna be, uh, you know, they're probably gonna use it according to current laws of society, which is ruthless brutality of power acquisition, right? Like, that's what humans do. And, um, there's, there's rules on what- and so we do this because we value security and power and status. That's what we, we all do individually, so we do collectively. So whoever acquires this technology is gonna play by the rules of society to acquire those endpoints. So when you acquire this power, if you apply the same human rules, what I'm saying is you have a possibility that leads you to a destruction of the species. So either AI can go wrong or humans can use it for the wrong purposes. And so what I'm saying is, like, in- when death- when it's just humans playing the game and death is inevitable, like, sure, I go to war, kill each other, create kingdoms, have someone else take your place in that kingdom, like, do your thing. When you're giving birth to superintelligence and the, and the map is changing for the species, you have to ask: Is there any existing system that humans have that answer this equation? So, like, let me give you another example. So imagine you're hanging out with Homo erectus a million years ago. They have an axe in their hand, that's their tool of choice, to, like, give you an idea of how either primitive or advanced they were. And you say: "Homo erectus, tell me about the future of intelligence. Like, what are humans going to be like?" Now, Homo erectus, at that point, may say, "We're going to do, you know, we're gonna do more hunting, we're gonna do more gathering, we're gonna travel to different parts of the world," but they can't tell you about the microscopic world of atoms or molecules. They can't tell you about the electromagnetic spectra, which you can't see. They can't tell you about radios. They can't tell you about antibiotics, a pill you hold in your hand to swallow. They have no models in their mind that inform them on any part of our reality. So the only thing a Homo erectus could say that would be intelligent is, "I don't know. I have no models to state this." Now, when we're giving birth to superintelligence, the question is: Are we equal to Homo erectus? Are we basically as primitive relative to AI as Homo erectus is to our, our current state? And so that's the, the question for us, is do we know anything? Which takes us back to our first question, our second question, and third question. This entire conversation is a, is a juxtaposition of what we think we know, what we actually know, and trying to find the right balance between do we dare even express an opinion? And so Don't Die is basically saying: We have no idea what the future is offering. We have no idea what's coming our way. The only thing we know, the only thing we can say with confidence, is none of us wanna die right now. That's it. We can't say anything intelligent beyond that statement. Everything else is pure speculation.

Prashanth Prakash 1:12:32 Uh, going back to, Bryan, what you were saying, I mean, does that even matter, that point? I mean, just, this Don't Die thing, when, let's say you have two countries, uh, um, let's say the US and China, right? Hypothetically, right. So if they have all the AGI in the world, and the rest of the world is, is pretty much-

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:56 Basically, what Prashanth is saying, that the philosophy of Don't Die has nothing to do with-

Jitendra Chouksey 1:13:01 ... what's gonna happen in the world?

Speaker 1:13:03 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:13:03 I mean, it seems good as a, as a personal project. It seems amazing that humans can improve their lifespan and increase, uh, you know, uh, the quality years in their life. But how does that all tie in with the-

Speaker 1:13:15 How does it relate to this, this, this birthing of the super-

Jitendra Chouksey 1:13:18 ... future? Yeah.

Speaker 1:13:19 I'm just correlating these two is where I'm trying to struggle.

Speaker 1:13:21 Yeah, because you, you need to program the AI with an objective function. You just say, "AI, your role is to do these things under these circumstances for these reasons." Right? So right now, we're, we're tuning it like you're polite in certain ways, or you will talk about this, but not about that. Like, you can't tell me how to build a, a nuclear weapon. You can't tell me how to do basic chemistry, right? We're tuning these models. We're telling them what they can and cannot do, so we're already feeding into them all of our values. So when you get pa- with the super intelligence, it's not just like we think it should do whatever we want. We're- we've, we've infused our morals, and ethics, and values. If you tell the AI, "AI, the objective of your existence is intelligence doesn't die. Humans don't die. You don't die. Our planet does not die. That's the goal."

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:10 So you're saying when you say, "Don't die," you're saying program the AI into behaving in a manner that it follows Don't Die?

Speaker 1:14:17 Exactly.

Speaker 1:14:18 That's the objective function he's saying. But my question is-

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:21 Oh

Speaker 1:14:21 ... why would that super intelligence want to follow that function?

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:26 If it is really super intelligent.

Speaker 1:14:27 If it's really sup... That's-

Jitendra Chouksey 1:14:28 I mean, it doesn't make sense to the planet. It doesn't affect your continual, uh, existence as a human species. Like, we die so our kids can take place. I mean, at- after a point, your brain is not having the same kind of cognition that would result in you being-

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:41 Would it be good for the world if we all didn't die?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:14:44 Not really.

Speaker 1:14:45 Has-

Jitendra Chouksey 1:14:46 Not really.

Speaker 1:14:46 Has any civilization, has any generation ever been able to say anything wise about the future?

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:53 No.

Speaker 1:14:54 Like-

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:54 But here we are trying to extrapolate the future, and we are saying AGI will come, and then what will happen? So the question inherently is about the future.

Speaker 1:15:02 So this is the thing, the, the ... So what you see happening in the conversation is this is the tension, right? Like, your, your statement was, like, "Is it good or bad for humans to live for a certain degree?" You said, "No." Right? So the question is, like, how do you know that? And, and so you, you made a statement, right? So this is, like, this tension. How do we dare say anything about the future? As- when we're giving birth to something that exceeds us in intelligence, how can we make any model, any, any kind of bridge to a, a reality? Why wouldn't we just say, "We have no idea." We can guess, but to have this extreme humility, we don't know. And that gives you actually the wisdom to say, "If we don't know, let's just all agree to this basic idea, no one dies." The AI, that, that's the objective function, and once you don't die, you can then say, "I'm gonna pl- we're gonna play new games of blank." Sure, like, but you have to have that foundation, otherwise, we're dumping into this thing, uh, we're j- we're walking into this with violence, and war, and murder at the core function of our goals.

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:05 I'm, I'm just gonna ask one question here. You're not asking me for the philosophy I should live by, you're asking me for the philosophy that should be programmed into AGI when it were to come about?

Speaker 1:16:18 Exactly, yes.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:16:19 Yeah, but, but why should all become so reductive to a point that everybody starts talking about don't die? I mean, there's so many things that we can all agree on.

Speaker 1:16:29 Such as?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:16:29 Like your second point, don't kill others. I'd put that on top of don't die.

Speaker 1:16:34 How, um, you may. Do others?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:16:37 I mean, I mean, the same applies to Don't Die also. I- you believe that the whole philosophy of Don't Die comes from the very existence, or it's, it's like, it's very inherent.

Speaker 1:16:47 No, it's, it's intrinsic.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:16:48 Yeah, it's intrinsic.

Speaker 1:16:49 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:16:49 But then Nikhil here just pointed out, maybe he does not have that intrinsic desire to live. So I think it's also-

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:55 No, no, I have it

Jitendra Chouksey 1:16:55 ... supposed to, [laughing] I mean-

Speaker 1:16:57 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:57 [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 1:16:57 Not beyond 100 years. [laughing] He's talking about don't die. You're probably talking about 100 years, so, you know?

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:05 But I tell you this-

Jitendra Chouksey 1:17:05 He's talking about living beyond 100, 200 years.

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:07 If AGI is a culmination of human innovation and human intelligence-

Speaker 1:17:13 Yes

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:14 ... humans are innately programmed to survive, every single one. Given a choice between you and you, you would throw him off the hill, and he would throw you off the boat. The first part of your statement, don't die, is inherently programmed into every living thing. It's in our subconscious, and if our subconscious is getting translated into the super intelligence, 'cause it's building above our consciousness, I would assume organically, innately, it should have the same tenets.

Speaker 1:17:46 Yeah.

Speaker 1:17:46 Have to say.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:17:46 And, and, and, I mean, you are putting a disclaimer, "Hey, don't die, but don't kill anybody else," but what's to prevent people from killing other people? I mean-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:54 Con- Confucius-

Jitendra Chouksey 1:17:55 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:55 ... the, the ancient guy, this is his philosophy of life, which I really love, and I feel like if I had one philosophy to live by, "Don't do unto others what you wouldn't like done to you." That kind of encap- encapsulates both don't die and don't kill others.

Speaker 1:18:10 Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's very similar. The most challenging part of this conversation is to wrestle ... Like, go back to that first question. "Would you say yes or no to an algorithm that he gave you," right? Imag- remember your confidence. Like, you said, like, "I have a model of reality. I'm gonna ma- I'm gonna state the statement of reality." The next question made you realize that from the vantage point of the 25th century, your models of reality may be silly. They may be primitive. You may know absolutely nothing, right? Like, laughable from the perspective of the 25th century. And then the third question reminded you of the same thing, that when you have these really complicated questions, all of you answered with high degrees of confidence, "We should do the following things." But then we all, like, kind of conceded. We're like, "Actually, [chuckles] like, we legit don't know." And so you're still wrestling that with your own responses. Like, you, you want to map your model of the world onto this question. You want there to be an answer. You want there to be a reason. You want there to be a purpose. You want there to have, to be a biologically describable situation.... and those things don't solve this moment.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:19:12 Right. How do we solve Don't Die, Bryan? I think, I think that's the more peculiar question. How do we solve for Don't Die? Don't you think that a human- [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 1:19:21 [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 1:19:21 Uh, and what's, what's the Don't Die question?

Speaker 1:19:25 Yeah, exactly. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 1:19:27 [laughing] Die score.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:19:27 What's the die score for this one?

Speaker 1:19:28 Won't chew. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 1:19:30 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:30 No, no, I mean, come on. No, no, chips.

Prashanth Prakash 1:19:32 These are air fried? [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:33 Yeah, air fried. Air fried. This is makhana.

Speaker 1:19:36 This is okay. What's-

Jitendra Chouksey 1:19:37 This makhana is okay.

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:38 Yeah, this is like healthy version of fried something. Air fried.

Speaker 1:19:41 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:43 Really, air fried. [laughing]

Speaker 1:19:45 Okay, so what I want for today, from today's episode, is, A, to figure out what to put in my body, what not to put in my body. If I were a fifteen-year-old, twenty-year-old, twenty-five, thirty, fifty, sixty, man, woman, LGBTQ, whatever, okay? The second question I want answered, most of our audience is... they're young people who are looking to be entrepreneurs. They want to start a business. I want to answer the question: in this realm of health, where is the opportunity to start a business, and what business should they start? Those two things are the main answers. Right.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:20:26 Okay, we can start with the first one.

Speaker 1:20:28 Okay, so what should we put into our body? We'll all say the supplements we are taking, and maybe you can give us your opinion on it, and you... we can all ask the-

Jitendra Chouksey 1:20:36 No, uh

Speaker 1:20:36 -questions independently.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:20:37 No, but-

Prashanth Prakash 1:20:38 No, but-

Jitendra Chouksey 1:20:38 But first, he should start, I think.

Prashanth Prakash 1:20:39 Yeah, he should. I mean, Bryan, I mean, just I have a quick question there. Uh, so you were doing about a hundred plus supplements when you started out?

Speaker 1:20:46 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 1:20:46 Is that correct?

Speaker 1:20:47 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 1:20:47 Yeah. And you've kind of now got it down to about forty.

Speaker 1:20:50 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 1:20:51 Right? What was the process, and, and how did you get from where you started to where, where you are?

Speaker 1:20:57 Uh, it's all about data. It's all about measurement of data. So like, the question, like, what somebody should eat or what someone should take is, like, we can start with markers that we know are good. You can say, like, um, your measure of your HbA1c, uh, so your blood glucose level. We can say, um, you know, a six is bad, a four point seven is good. So, very easy. You say, "What foods produce something closer to four point seven, and what foods produce something closer to six?" That's a very easy process, right? So, uh, foods that spike blood sugar, like high sugar and things like that, bad. And so you start with the stuff that's very basic. What things, uh, create inflammation in the body, good or bad? Can you tell us five basic things that we should follow? Yeah, but I, I say these things because, um, every health expert has a different answer.

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:49 But what is Bryan's answer?

Speaker 1:21:51 Yeah, so I guess-

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:51 After all the experience-

Speaker 1:21:52 Sure

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:52 -and research.

Speaker 1:21:53 Yeah, my... So I have specific answers for foods I eat, but I'm saying the process that people should go about doing is not trust anyone's philosophy. They should trust the data. And so there's multiple paths to get to the same destination. Just trust the data. And so what I do, um, I-- for breakfast, I have broccoli, cauliflower, black lentils, garlic, ginger. Uh, for my next meal, I have macadamia nuts, walnuts, flaxseed, pomegranate juice, berries, pea protein, and hemp protein. My final meal of the day is some cli- combination of berries, nuts, seeds. And then I have extra virgin olive oil with every meal, and, uh, I do fermented foods.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:22:29 And every day?

Speaker 1:22:30 What's that?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:22:31 Every day you have the same thing?

Speaker 1:22:32 The third meal varies every day. Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:22:35 Oh, okay.

Prashanth Prakash 1:22:36 And, uh, what's the time? I mean, you do this between, uh, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:41 Intermittent

Prashanth Prakash 1:22:41 ... restricted, uh-

Speaker 1:22:42 Yeah, in six hours.

Prashanth Prakash 1:22:43 Six hours.

Speaker 1:22:43 Fast for six hours.

Prashanth Prakash 1:22:44 Six hours.

Speaker 1:22:44 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:46 Uh-

Prashanth Prakash 1:22:46 And just going back to the supplements, I just want to-

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:49 Yeah, [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 1:22:49 ... stick to that. Uh, uh, I mean, if you had to just extrapolate, let's say, uh, do you think the forty that you have today, also, is there a stack ranking of those forty? And are there ten in those forty that you think have had the, uh, highest leverage or the highest-

Speaker 1:23:11 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 1:23:11 ... impact for you? What, what would those ten be?

Speaker 1:23:13 Well, we... Each one I take is pegged to a biomarker.

Prashanth Prakash 1:23:16 Got it.

Speaker 1:23:16 So, like, I'm trying-

Prashanth Prakash 1:23:17 So which, which... Yeah.

Speaker 1:23:17 Yeah. I'm trying to maintain ideal levels of vitamin K, vitamin D, vitamin E. So, like, uh, everything is measured by a marker, so every supplement has an endpoint.

Prashanth Prakash 1:23:26 Okay, so each supplement-- So, so if you think there are ten important micronutrients or-

Speaker 1:23:32 Yes

Prashanth Prakash 1:23:32 ... vitamin or, or other markers, you've just pegged, uh, each of them.

Speaker 1:23:37 Exactly.

Prashanth Prakash 1:23:37 And then, how- you took off these other supplements because, uh, were they negatively impacting one of these markers, or they were doing nothing for these markers?

Speaker 1:23:46 Yeah. So actually, the, the more nuanced story is I took majority of those and put it into a drink. [laughing] I was like, I still take-

Prashanth Prakash 1:23:52 Right

Speaker 1:23:52 ... basically a hundred pills a day.

Prashanth Prakash 1:23:54 Right.

Speaker 1:23:54 Just now they're in part of a drink, so it's easier to take, and so then forty are in pill, in capsule form.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:59 I know the list of everything you take is out there. Uh, one can read it online, right? On-

Speaker 1:24:05 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:06 Yeah. Where does one go to see it?

Speaker 1:24:07 Uh, pro, uh, uh, blueprint.bryanjohnson.com. Right. Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:14 Maybe we can talk about what we are taking and get opinions. So each one of you has a different theory of what works, right? I can go first. I take vitamin D, omega-3, uh, shilajit, ashwagandha. I don't know what your thoughts are. Would love to know. And magnesium at night.

Speaker 1:24:33 Have you measured your omega, your omega levels?

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:36 Can you measure your omega levels, yeah?

Prashanth Prakash 1:24:38 Yeah. So we will be- so it's, uh... In the US, there's OmegaQuant-

Speaker 1:24:41 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 1:24:42 ... that does that.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:42 In India?

Prashanth Prakash 1:24:43 But in India, BioPeak will be able.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:45 Okay.

Speaker 1:24:45 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:47 So you're saying constantly measure my levels to take-

Speaker 1:24:50 Exactly. I wouldn't take anything unless you can measure it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:53 Ironically enough, that's what you were saying as well. Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:24:57 Yeah. I mean, some of the things you can't measure directly, for example, magnesium, right? A lot of people rely on blood tests for magnesium, uh, which is not the right way. You should rely on, uh, you know, DEXA for that. So because over a period of time, body's homeostasis would leach out magnesium and other minerals from your bones and still maintain your-

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:18 ... uh, you know, blood concentration. So sometimes those things can, like, incorrectly show that you have sufficient magnesium, but might not, so.

1:25:25 How, how often do you measure?

Speaker 1:25:28 Uh, which, which one?

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:28 How, uh, uh, all the blood markers.

Speaker 1:25:31 Uh, blood's, like, once every month or two. But yeah, we do thousands of measurements every month across everything: imaging, blood, methylation, like-

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:41 What should I measure? Like, if I could do only, like, five tests-

Speaker 1:25:45 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:45 -what should I measure in my body?

Speaker 1:25:47 I mean, the easiest thing to do is blood.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:49 Okay.

Speaker 1:25:49 Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:49 And what am I looking for in blood?

Speaker 1:25:52 Uh, it depends on how advanced you want to get. You can get very robust, like, a hundred panel, hundred variable panel of blood. You can do very basic of, like, twelve to fifteen.

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:00 Okay.

Speaker 1:26:00 So you, like, take your pick on how advanced you want to become.

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:03 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:26:03 If you want to become more sophisticated, you could do, after that, you could do some epigenetic testing, so you can see, uh, your speed of aging or the, uh, age of your organs according to DNA methylation patterns. You could do a full body MRI, looking for bad stuff like cancer, tumors, but also baselining your, your organs with the biological age. Uh, you can do a microplastics test. We just did that as a company. So you can do a finger prick and see the microplastics in your, in your bloodstream. And then there's a whole bunch of other... Like, there's endless tests. You can do a microbiome test, you can do, like, a whole bunch of stuff. So you have to just-

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:35 And if you were to suggest five supplements, I know it's a generalization, for the average twenty-five-year-old, what are the supplements they should be on most often?

Speaker 1:26:45 Yeah, it's what they're deficient in.

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:47 Right.

Speaker 1:26:48 Always start with the deficiencies as the, the most

Speaker 1:26:50 powerful.

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:51 Okay, since we have one question: if I were a twenty-five-year-old trying to start a business in health around testing, supplementation, or anything ancillary, do you see any low-hanging fruits that one should start?

Speaker 1:27:05 I mean, so I, I went through this exercise myself, and, um, I didn't really want to get into this business. Like, it's a, it's a pain in the ass, low margin, uh, but, like, it's-- no one's done this. So we created, I think, uh, the healthiest food stack in the entire world. So we went through all the evidence. We said, where are high-value nutritional foods? We sourced it from all over the world, and we do third-party testing, and we publish all the lab results. And I know from doing this over the past couple years, that food is guilty until proven innocent. So if we tested this food right here, I bet it's toxic. I bet it has contaminants in there that we don't know we're eating because nobody's checking this. There's no-- we don't have a third-party lab result showing us what's in this food. I've tested enough food myself to know most things have high levels of, of toxins. And most-

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:01 So you're saying the business would be to put out a food stack that is highly tested?

Speaker 1:28:05 Exactly. 'Cause what you- you want basically health to be automated. Like, if I eat this, I want to know what I'm putting in my body. Like, what is the die score? Is it actually gonna... Is it improving my health or is it making my health worse? There's, there's actually, you can quantify that to some degree. Like, smoking a cigarette-- So here's, like, kind of like, in this air quality here, uh, in Mumbai, it's equal to smoking over ten cigarettes a day if you're out in the, every day. Like, the entire city is smoking, you know, ten plus cigarettes a day breathing this air, right? That's a very clear die score, right? Because there's no virtue in cigarettes. There's no one living longer because they're smoking. The same issue with this air quality.

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:44 So, Bryan, now, what do you think of a business where you have a multidisciplinary team, right? Which is, which costs a lot of money-

Speaker 1:28:51 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:51 ... and you, you use them. If that can be, uh, democratized in some sense and, uh, somebody can have a model and which is kind of the clinic model with the same team-

Speaker 1:29:03 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:29:03 ... that can be leveraged with a health manager, uh, for a broader set of people.

Speaker 1:29:09 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:29:09 Are you thinking of something like that?

Speaker 1:29:11 It's like, it's the hard- the hard part about that is it doesn't scale. Like, anytime you're dealing with someone's personal health, you've got infinite rabbit holes to go down, right? They've got endless issues they're trying to chase down, and those issues are endless optimizations. And then when you pair the doctor with that, like, it just, there's, the margins are so low. Uh, maybe AI will change that-

Nikhil Kamath 1:29:29 Yeah

Speaker 1:29:29 ... or it can change that.

Nikhil Kamath 1:29:30 That's what I think. Yeah, okay.

1:29:31 Can you give us one more, like a business a twenty-five-year-old should start? Because everybody is looking at this, watching. Bryan, what business do we start in health?

Speaker 1:29:39 There's so many people building in AI in health right now, so that's a very saturated market. There's just tons of, uh, high-quality energy going into that. Like, food, food is, like, the most basic, boring business that no one builds.

Nikhil Kamath 1:29:55 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:29:56 And, uh, that's why it was a problem that needed to be solved. We did that with supplements and food. Um, you know, like, biotech is a different thing. You have to raise a ton of money, you have these very long cycles. It's very hard. So yeah, health is very, very hard. Like, the doctor mo- like, it's very, very hard. It's not a clean answer.

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:13 I mean, uh, one thing, uh, I take Athletic Greens in the morning. [chuckles]

Speaker 1:30:18 Yeah. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:19 So I saw, I saw, uh, a post of yours-

Speaker 1:30:22 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:24 ... uh, kind of dissing Athletic Greens. Why is that? Because the whole industry seems to be, uh, on one side for Athletic Greens, and, and you are against it, as in-

Speaker 1:30:35 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:35 Any, any reason for that? Does it-

Speaker 1:30:36 Yeah, so the, um, the cost of their goods to source their actual ingredients is less than ten dollars, probably seven dollars. They sell it for one time, ninety-nine dollars, and subscription for seventy-nine. They pay influencers twenty percent of that. So every time a, a health influencer plugs AG1, they get twenty dollar, uh, um, fourteen dollars on that sale in perpetuity. And so what, what I'm hitting at is health influencers have sold their souls to push this product. Because, like, as a health influencer, you channel your- you're basically saying: "Trust me, I'm gonna tell you true things."

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:20 Right.

Speaker 1:31:21 And then you turn on your, your, um-... promotion hat, and now you're saying, "Trust me, buy this thing."

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:29 Right.

Speaker 1:31:29 But it's driven by money. So there's a confusion: are you telling me this because you trust- because I trust you, or are you telling me this because I'm gonna make- you're making money from me? And that's where it splits, and there's no disclosure that that's what's happening. And so it confuses people, and it lessens the value of the entire industry, 'cause now I say, "Do I trust the health system? Do I trust influencers?" And so they lower the trust of the entire ecosystem, because I don't know now who's telling me the truth and who's telling me things to make money. And so that, and so AG1 bought their way to influence by getting people to compromise their own personal integrity by blurring the line between what is true and what I'm making money on.

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:09 And the alternate, like, the same argument could be held for what you are trying to sell using the Blueprint. I mean, someone could say that you are potentially, uh, you know, trying to sell this, and that's why you're, you know, you're-

Speaker 1:32:27 So-

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:27 Saying something in-

Speaker 1:32:28 The difference with me is I did everything, and I open-sourced the entire thing. I said, "Here's all my recipes, here's all my ingredients. Like, go out and do it. I'm gonna help you do the whole thing yourself." And then I share all my data. I say, "I do this, and here's my data." Right? It's, like, the most open, transparent, ungated pro... process you can do. I've given the world my entire recipe. So, like, there's, there's no, uh, there's no conflict in what I'm doing. I take it, I share all my data, I open-source it, they can go do their own thing. And so it's actually a very clean model. I do what I say, I do what I, I do, and there's no, like, are you telling me the truth to do this to your own personal incentive, or are you doing this for my, my benefit?

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:07 And, and Blueprint and Athletic Green is, like, similar products?

Speaker 1:33:12 Yeah. Yeah, but again, like I say, "You can buy it from me or go do it. Like, go source it on your own. I will help you source this. I will tell you what to look for, I'll tell you how to buy it. Like, I will help you accomplish the same objective."

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:26 So-

Speaker 1:33:26 So it's like, it's like I- as far as I know, I'm the only influencer playing it clean.

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:33 One question on rapamycin.

Speaker 1:33:35 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:35 I just saw that post-

Speaker 1:33:36 Yes

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:36 ... and, uh, it's of course, uh, aspirationally a gold standard as a molecule, right, for longevity.

Speaker 1:33:43 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:44 And, uh, it didn't work for you. Um, do you think if, in a country like India, uh, there needs to be new trials on it, and new people need to be... I mean, will, will it work in our kind of tropical environment? Uh, what's, what's your thoughts on rapamycin?

Speaker 1:34:02 Yeah, it was, it was a really surprising thing that if, if you were to ask, like, what does the longevity community agree upon the most?

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:09 Yeah.

Speaker 1:34:09 It was probably rapamycin.

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:10 Exactly. That's, that's why this question.

Speaker 1:34:11 Yeah [chuckles] .

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:12 Yeah.

Speaker 1:34:12 So-

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:12 The, the one- [laughing] ... thing that everybody was, you said it's not, doesn't work for you.

Speaker 1:34:16 Yeah. I mean, it's the side effect profile. It's the, it messes with lipids, it messes with blood glucose. I had small tissue infection, uh, soft tissue infections. Um, it raised my resting heart rate. And so we knew we had these side effects, but we just wondered, like, whether the benefits outweighed, uh, you know, whether it was a, whether it was a fair trade-off. But, uh, I don't think- we just don't think it is. And so, um-

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:38 So will you try it some other time again, or you just-

Speaker 1:34:41 We're open to it. Yeah, like, we're always open. Like, and like, we really, we're very humble. Like, we assume we're wrong in almost, almost everything we do, and we try to find reasons to, like, where we're wrong. But, like, we, we really do think we're very early stages, and so the, the value is in the process of measurement and of science evaluation. The-

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:58 Yeah, just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean that-

Speaker 1:35:00 Exactly

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:01 ... it won't work for them.

Speaker 1:35:01 Yeah, like, and we may be back on it, you know, like, we... I don't know. It's just like it's, it, it's, um, it's encouraging people to go through the same, the, the same process of measurement.

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:10 Good.

Speaker 1:35:11 And, like, I share this because, like, I want people to beat me. And if they can beat me, then they improve, you know, the whole ecosystem.

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:17 What is end game for you, Bryan? What are you looking to be years, twenty years from now? What are you trying to achieve?

Speaker 1:35:26 Um, I want something very simple. I want the twen- those who exist in the 25th century, I want them to say, "He got it. He got it. He, he got that moment right. He saw it."

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:41 Is, is the need for being right in an unforeseeable future, why is that so appealing to you?

Speaker 1:35:50 Uh, it's the- it's the characteristics I value in people. Like, I read a ton of biographies, and we, we read people throughout history, like, you know, Magellan, like, he had this hypothesis: "I can sail a ship around the world." And he got a crew, and he loaded up all his materials, right? And, like, he was successful.

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:08 And when you paint this picture in your mind, is it posthumous validation, or are you alive in the 21st century?

Speaker 1:36:14 Like, either, either version makes me happy.

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:17 Right.

Speaker 1:36:18 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:19 What center in your brain is that most ap- appealing to? Like, for you to be proven right a hundred years down the line, what kind of high does that give you?

Speaker 1:36:28 Yeah, I mean, it's like, to me, it's the ultimate game to play. So, like, if you say, like, um, what is human ambition or aspiration? Like, you could say in previous times, uh, Alexander the Great says, "I'm going to raise an army, I'm going to conquer territory, and make this huge kingdom." Like, that's like the, the peak ambition, right, of a military commander. If you're a spiritual, uh, person, you may say, "I want to figure out detachment and ego death, and I want to-

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:59 Do you think something in common between Alexander and the spiritual leader, outside of what they superficially did?

Speaker 1:37:05 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 1:37:05 Having a lot of followers for the spiritual leader, conquering land for Alexander, what sat below it in their psychology? Why did they want that?

Speaker 1:37:12 So this is... It's like ma- it's like, um, what a person does with their conscious existence. You know, it's like, uh, Turing was like, "I'm going to build a universal computer," right? Uh, uh-... uh, Watson and Crick was like: "We're going to, like, distant-- we're gonna actually use-- we can look at the DNA," right? It's like people do things to express their essence, their intelligence. And so the question for me is, like, I find myself to exist, what do I do with my existence? Like, do I try to make money? Do I try to have a lot of sex? Do I, like, do I become debaucherous? Like, what do I do with my existence? And to me, the coolest thing you can do is you try to solve the puzzle of existence. Like, you try to solve, like, this whole thing. Like, what is going on? Like, [chuckles] what, what is even happening? Like, why do we exist? Why is there Earth? Why are we in this part of the galaxy? What is existence? And so to me, that's like, you point at that.

Prashanth Prakash 1:38:06 Right.

Speaker 1:38:06 And that's what my twenty-year-old self was like. I wanted to do something that had this bigger architectural thing. And to me, like, there's one thing happening right now, which is like: How do you solve existence for intelligence?

Prashanth Prakash 1:38:17 Right.

Speaker 1:38:17 Like, everything else is just like a sideshow. And so to me, I'm very drawn to it as a problem. And that's why I go to this, like, how do you structure knowing, not knowing? How do you structure human affairs? What are app- appropriate thought processes? Uh, so really, it's like the biggest puzzle to solve in this moment.

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:32 [upbeat music] So my team's telling me you wanna, like... Yeah? Okay.

Speaker 1:38:37 Cool.

Prashanth Prakash 1:38:37 Cool, thanks.

Speaker 1:38:39 [upbeat music] Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:42 Yeah?

Speaker 1:38:43 Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Prashanth Prakash 1:38:44 Yeah.

Speaker 1:38:46 Good to hang out.

Nikhil Kamath 1:39:08 [upbeat music]

Nikhil Kamath 1:39:35 Okay.

Prashanth Prakash 1:39:36 Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 1:39:37 Bryan had to leave. Air quality in Bombay is not up to-

Prashanth Prakash 1:39:42 [chuckles] Up to the mark.

Nikhil Kamath 1:39:43 I'm actually surprised that the air quality affected him that much, cognizant to how different things affect different people, but could you think it'll be that bad?

Speaker 1:39:54 I mean- Seema Kamath: It's possible. It is possible, as in-

Nikhil Kamath 1:39:58 One twenty?

Speaker 1:40:00 I mean, the way he reacted to one twenty was strange, because he probably stays in a place where it's less than ten.

Nikhil Kamath 1:40:07 California.

Speaker 1:40:08 But... Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:40:09 LA.

Speaker 1:40:09 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 1:40:10 But, uh, Nithin, a hundred, right? I mean, I'm just being objective, and this could happen in Bangalore. I'm not saying because it's Bangalore, Mumbai, whatever, right? Hundred, living at a hundred for long periods of time is not good.

Speaker 1:40:24 I mean, we, uh-

Prashanth Prakash 1:40:25 Yeah, so, so this, uh, as cities, we have to do something in our country.

Speaker 1:40:29 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 1:40:30 And-

Speaker 1:40:30 I mean, we have made a choice, conscious choice of staying outside. I mean, not really outside of Bangalore- Seema Kamath: Yeah ... but little outskirts. Uh, just because, uh, air quality there is, is sub twenty all the time.

Nikhil Kamath 1:40:44 You're talking to real estate king.

Prashanth Prakash 1:40:46 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:40:46 What happens to real estate [laughing] in central Bangalore-

Speaker 1:40:49 [laughing] Seema Kamath: [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:40:49 ... if everybody starts thinking like that?

Prashanth Prakash 1:40:51 No, but I, I think, uh, it's a, it's a problem on multiple dimensions, right? I don't think it's about vehicular traffic, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:41:00 Mm.

Prashanth Prakash 1:41:00 There's construction, right? All our cities are going through tremendous construction, and I don't know if this is a five-year, ten-year... From what I hear, I don't know-

Speaker 1:41:09 Pune also

Prashanth Prakash 1:41:10 ... maybe you have a better sense, but they're saying Mumbai before construction and Mumbai after construction, one thing that has changed is the AQI quality.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:41:18 See, it's not just a problem pertaining to Mumbai, because practically, if I were to move from Pune to Delhi, I would feel sick, because the difference in air quality is substantial. So your body takes a few days to acclimatize, uh, and just adjust to that environment. So if suddenly you are moving from, let's say, a sub-thirty AQI to, let's say, one forty, um, it would have a drastic effect. So you would feel that sudden itching.

Nikhil Kamath 1:41:41 I was surprised that... Because we also live here, right?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:41:44 Yeah. But we have, uh, like, our bodies have acclimatized, you know. Our bodies have adjusted, compromising multiple secondary functions. So you have primary functions, you have secondary functions. So at any point of time, your body will prioritize survival. So, you know-

Prashanth Prakash 1:42:00 Yeah

Jitendra Chouksey 1:42:00 ... we are basically compromising when we are living here. The body has compromised to an extent where it does not feel like we are facing any issues, but in reality, we are, and-

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:10 Should we all move?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:42:11 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 1:42:11 No, but, but there's one, uh, uh, you know, thing, uh, thought that occurred to me just now, right? There are so many people who travel from the US for the first time, and Bryan is not the first, uh, of course-

Jitendra Chouksey 1:42:23 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 1:42:23 ... the person who came here for the first time, right? I've not seen them react the same way. And-

Speaker 1:42:27 No, that's probably he's so measured. He's measuring everything-

Prashanth Prakash 1:42:30 No, but-

Speaker 1:42:30 ... so he's more conscious

Prashanth Prakash 1:42:31 ... looked like he was feeling it.

Speaker 1:42:32 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 1:42:32 Like, do those people feel it, and they don't tell us about it?

Speaker 1:42:35 Yeah. [chuckles]

Prashanth Prakash 1:42:36 I don't know. So-

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:37 But they do fall sick, no?

Prashanth Prakash 1:42:38 They do, they do. Seema Kamath: They do, they do. They do?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:42:40 Yeah, they do.

Prashanth Prakash 1:42:40 First time?

Speaker 1:42:40 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:42:41 Yeah, most of the times- Seema Kamath: Most ... they, they come here, they get influenza and other vaccines, and then they come to-

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:45 They call it allergy

Jitendra Chouksey 1:42:46 ... our country. Yeah.

Speaker 1:42:47 Yeah. But the strange thing is, um, in India, we pay more for real estate wherever the AQI is the most. Delhi is, is the most prime real estate in the country and the worst air quality. Here in Bombay, you know, probably prime real estate. In Bombay, one twenty, one thirty next to the sea is actually... If this next to the sea, you probably go interior somewhere, you probably are having a much worse, much worse, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:20 Next to the sea with a lot of plants and four air purifiers.

Speaker 1:43:23 Yeah. Seema Kamath: Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:25 But I think, uh-

Jitendra Chouksey 1:43:26 Next five to ten years, most of the cities in India will-... as per WHO would be, you know, un- inhabitable, uh, when it comes to AQI and water quality.

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:36 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:43:36 Like, sure, you can purify your waters, but at the same time, if your natural reservoirs are not safe to drink from, that basically will result in loss of, of flora and fauna. Because, you know, we humans have the luxury to drink from purifiers, animals don't.

Prashanth Prakash 1:43:51 Maybe that's the real startup opportunity, right? Like I said, how to make your home, uh, an environment that to some extent, for some period of the day, compensates for what you don't have in your control.

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:05 So air purifier, a good idea for entrepreneur?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:44:07 Extremely good. Extremely good.

Prashanth Prakash 1:44:08 I mean, but next level.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:44:09 Mm.

Prashanth Prakash 1:44:10 I don't think the air purifiers we have today are really at the level which are required for our cities. They were probably made for... I, I'm sure this technology is from the West, where it was like hundred, hundred going to-

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:23 Air four, air purifier. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 1:44:24 Yeah. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:24 Yeah, I didn't even watch.

Prashanth Prakash 1:44:25 So I think you need-

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:26 One thirty, one forty, yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 1:44:27 You need air purifier that works.

Speaker 1:44:28 But do air purifiers actually take down-

Prashanth Prakash 1:44:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Speaker 1:44:31 ... PMI?

Prashanth Prakash 1:44:32 Because they, they reci- they, they, they take the, that PMI, uh, uh, they absorb that.

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:38 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 1:44:38 There are filters that absorb that.

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:39 We probably need industrial-size air purifiers.

Speaker 1:44:41 'Cause in Goa, I have the Dyson one. It shows sixty, seventy, but I don't think PMI there can be that high.

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:47 Goa-

Prashanth Prakash 1:44:48 Surprising.

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:49 There's a lot of construction around, right?

Speaker 1:44:52 No construction, but air quality one thing. Say, in the house when you're cooking, right?

Prashanth Prakash 1:44:55 Yeah.

Speaker 1:44:56 The number goes high. So how... What is that?

Prashanth Prakash 1:44:58 No, that is smoke.

Speaker 1:44:58 Are we still cooking and breathing?

Prashanth Prakash 1:45:00 Yeah, but you're not doing... It's for short periods of time.

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:03 Yeah.

Speaker 1:45:03 But it's still bad if the PMI is going up.

Prashanth Prakash 1:45:06 Yeah, smoke, uh... Yeah, any, any kind of-

Speaker 1:45:08 Any kind

Prashanth Prakash 1:45:08 ... smoke is not great.

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:10 It's, it's, uh, ideally speaking, the kitchen should be kind of separate [chuckles] from the rest of the house.

Prashanth Prakash 1:45:17 So there's a second business opportunity, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:19 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 1:45:20 Uh, the, your exhaust fans need to be next level-

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:25 Correct

Prashanth Prakash 1:45:25 ... in terms of reducing the-

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:27 And a real estate idea, designs should not have kitchens in the house?

Prashanth Prakash 1:45:31 No, I think real estate-wise, can you make a home, right, that just like the way we give importance to air conditioning in the home, is there somebody who can show me, uh, that, uh, there's, there's a meter on every wall, right? Which instead of... I mean, in addition to temperature, can show my, the AQI in every room and say that this home has been engineered, uh, for sub fifty AQI. That's a big real estate. That's... I would pay a premium for that in any major city.

Nikhil Kamath 1:46:04 So I'm going to go

Nikhil Kamath 1:46:05 through ten tenets of longevity.

Prashanth Prakash 1:46:09 Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 1:46:10 Which we can add to or minus from, depending on how they sound, and we can all opine on what we think, and somebody comes up with a business idea for each one of them. Theek hai? First one, lifestyle management. Actively managing diet, sleep, exercise, alcohol, smoking, stress, to slow aging. [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 1:46:35 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:46:35 [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 1:46:35 There, there's this amazing company-

Nikhil Kamath 1:46:37 Uh?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:46:37 ... called FITTR. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:46:40 [laughing]

Speaker 1:46:41 [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 1:46:41 That does just that.

Nikhil Kamath 1:46:43 [chuckles]

Jitendra Chouksey 1:46:43 And you know, it's amazing.

Nikhil Kamath 1:46:44 I'm a subscriber, but if I'm having a drink, you're not looking at me.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:46:49 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:46:50 How are you managing it?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:46:51 You know, subconsciously, we're making you feel guilty. [laughing]

Speaker 1:46:54 [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 1:46:54 You know, hoping that someday you'll give up. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:46:57 So what is FITTR's business idea? Explain it.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:46:59 It's primarily coaching. So we have customers in hundred plus countries, and so personalized coaching, where somebody like me would talk to Chaitanya or a Seema, and then we'd basically ask the same questions: "How's your diet? How's your sleep?" And it's- it all boils down to basics. Most of the people are not getting their basics right. So educating them, uh, getting their basics in order, and then showing them results. That's what we do.

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:24 And are you coaching me via a screen, and how much are you charging me per session?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:47:29 I'm not charging you anything.

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:30 I know. Thank you.

Speaker 1:47:31 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:31 But how much do you charge per session? [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 1:47:33 [laughing] So, uh, uh, FITTR starts at roughly seventeen hundred rupees a month.

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:39 Right.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:47:39 Everything is virtual.

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:40 Right.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:47:40 Uh, that's the low end, and then depending on coach's experience, and let's say, if you have comorbidities, the prices go up.

Prashanth Prakash 1:47:48 We have three customers here, by the way.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:47:50 Sorry?

Prashanth Prakash 1:47:50 We have three customers here. [laughing]

Speaker 1:47:52 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:53 Your price goes up based on comorbidity?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:47:56 I mean, uh, specialized-

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:58 That's a very like, you know, shocking.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:48:00 Uh, actually, it's dependent on coach specialization, because coaches have more experience, so we- they get to handle clients with comorbidities. So if somebody, let's say, doesn't come with any kind of baggage, and a, a basic coach who just understands basic nutrition training, would be able to deal with them. But let's say if somebody is hitting, let's say, uh, uh, you know, perimenopause or somebody who's a- who's a menopausal woman, they'd have issues. They'll have mood issues, they'll have anxiety issues, thyroid would be out of whack. So they'd need somebody who understands clinical nutrition, somebody who's expert in understanding behaviors of women around menopause, because it's very tricky. So it all boils down to that, and that experience comes with a price tag.

Nikhil Kamath 1:48:43 So you're doing this well. I'm sure you made some mistakes along the way.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:48:48 Too many.

Nikhil Kamath 1:48:49 What should I start? What should a twenty-year-old start in this realm that can be a successful business, and what should they watch out for? Basically, help create your competition.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:49:01 Right. I, I think our model is going to keep growing as, uh, as the demand for personalized attention keeps growing, and, uh, as we've seen in other aspects also, like consultants, they are never out of a business, and it's just a matter of aggregating the right kind of consultants and, you know, just there, there's going to be demand. So people can replicate this business, and they can actually become competitors. So it's actually quite challenging for us, how do we, uh, you know, keep ourselves reinventing so that competitors don't eat up our share of the market or-

Nikhil Kamath 1:49:35 What's your moat?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:49:36 ... actually, at this point, to be very honest, except for the community, nothing.

Nikhil Kamath 1:49:40 Is there some tech involved?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:49:42 Everybody can build tech. So right now, the only leverage we have is the brand we have built for ourselves for the nine years, and it can be easily overcome. So we have to reinvent ourselves, and we are in the process.

Nikhil Kamath 1:49:58 Okay. Second tenet

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:00 of longevity, consumer diagnostics. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 1:50:05 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:06 What's happening in the world of diagnostics?

Prashanth Prakash 1:50:09 Diagnostics, right. So I think, uh, you know, just moving a step higher in terms of-- so we are in this, I think, a unique moment, uh, in our lives, right? Uh, uh, beyond the Do Not Die moment that we've discussed. I think where we have these, uh, advanced screening modalities, you know, multiple modalities that are becoming more affordable, coming out from the lab to mainstream, right? Beyond blood biochemistry. We have, uh, better understanding of, uh, not only the structure of our gut and our microbiome, but the function of it, right? How do we measure the function? Which is very different, actually. You can kind of talk lat-later more about that, right? So screen, so looking at that, then, uh, you also have metabolites. We did speak about it. Fundamentally, metabolic pathways, what, uh, JC was also talking about, how do you get a better under-the-hood idea of your metabolic pathways and be able to measure them? And then finally, all of this is a lot of data, right? If you didn't have AI, you just can't make sense of all of this. So building all of this into a model that can be, you know, uh, worked through a not just GenAI, right? So something like this requires ML, requires data engineering, and requires a different, uh, type of, uh, you know, a, a, a more comprehensive, uh, you know, machine learning model to be able to finally act as a agentic co-pilot, co-assist for somebody who can, as a, as, um, as one, one of JC's coaches or consultants, should be able to use this tool to be a bit more precise. So it's not the diagnostics that is the idea, I think it's being able to make those diagnostics actionable, and that's where AI, uh, can actually help. Uh, because otherwise, the type of expertise required to really, uh, you know, make sense of all this data is something that very few people can get to that level of expertise and training, and it just won't be practical and scalable. So, so it's-- this is a huge opportunity, very early days, and there's a final dimension on this, which, uh, is also what JC is u-using, which is longitudinally kind of tracking somebody and seeing what is changing. So that's a-- maybe that's one more, uh, of, of the, uh, your longevity, uh, things there. But do not... It's, it's not about the one time, right? It's about then the, what, what the coach tells you, what this health manager tells you, and then can you remeasure, and how often do you do that remeasurement, right? Is it monthly? Is it quarterly? But at some cadence, you need to be able to do that. And again, an AI tool is needed to say, "What is really changing, and the, is there a correlation between what you did and what changed?" So it's, it's, it's a, it's a open wide space-

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:51 Can you tell us the business model of BioPeaq and what you're doing differently? Why should I come to you and not go to Thyrocare? Also, the money, how much will you charge a client?

Prashanth Prakash 1:54:00 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:54:01 How much does it cost you for the equipment?

Prashanth Prakash 1:54:03 So first of all, uh, um, why do you go to Thyrocare? Because, uh, some doctor told you there is a... I mean, first of all, why did you go to a doctor? You went there because you think there is some- some, some, something medically that's bothering you, right? And most doctors are specialists, so they specialize in a particular organ, a particular function of your body, right? And they-- when they send you for a test, they actually send you for a test for that organ, for that functioning of that particular portion of your body, right? That's, we think, Medicine 1.0, 2.0, and that's the old way of doing it. The Medicine 3.0 approach would be to take a more systemic, whole-body approach and, and look at, you know, whether it is your metabolism, whether it is your, um... how, how good is your cognitive function? How good is your, your physical and, uh, performance, uh, uh, at, at a muscular and at a range of motion level, right? So can you, can you look at things slightly more holistically and integrate them into a more informed view of your current state, right? And marry that with genetics.... and with that, predict where should be your focus. I don't think doctors ever, do- doctors will tell you what to fi-- I mean, what, what, you, you go to a lab, you measure some, you measure something, you take a medicine for that, and you try to fix that specific problem, right? So there is no whole body approach. There is no system, uh, approach. So that's where BioPeak-

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:15 And like I asked JC, how much would I have to pay BioPeak?

Prashanth Prakash 1:56:18 So we think that, uh, you know, an entry price should be somewhere in the, uh, eighty, eighty, ninety thousand rupees to do this-

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:28 Per?

Prashanth Prakash 1:56:29 Which, which includes the screen, the whole-

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:32 Per year?

Prashanth Prakash 1:56:32 No, it includes the screen, plus maybe two to three months of follow-up on the intervention. But then we'll have packages where you take a whole yearly memberships, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:45 But you're like a rich person product. I've read about these longevity startups which are becoming like members club for rich people.

Prashanth Prakash 1:56:51 Yeah, so that's the-

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:52 This is that?

Prashanth Prakash 1:56:53 ... that's, that's the second product that we will have, which is, uh, you know, the community, the club, uh, you know, equivalent to a family health office, you know? Right. Just like you have a, a wealth manager, you have a health manager who's dedicated to you, who's clinically competent. So who's not just, um, you know, uh, one-dimensional in what... So, so the person could, should be able to, uh, you know, be able to manage your nutritional biochemistry, should be able to manage your exercise optimally, your sleep optimally. So all of that, uh, and there we will partner with, uh, various folks who can become health managers, right? So we don't have to... But I think various health managers will require this kind of diagnostics. So I think, uh, the health management, uh, could have a very high-end, uh, you know, club model, which could cost, uh, maybe ten thousand dollars a year. And I don't know, JC, what do you charge for a year for, uh, uh- [chuckles]

Jitendra Chouksey 1:57:57 Comparatively very cheap. [chuckles]

Prashanth Prakash 1:57:59 Ah, so, so, so that, that's another... Uh, but, but I think what we're talking about is empowering health managers with tools that will help them be more precise-

Nikhil Kamath 1:58:10 Mm.

Prashanth Prakash 1:58:10 -and more predictive.

Nikhil Kamath 1:58:11 So where's the entrepreneurship opportunity here for a twenty-five-year-old?

Prashanth Prakash 1:58:15 I think, uh, to, to be able to use... I mean, so like I said, we don't want to build every aspect of the business, right? So, so let's say I'm a, a, a trainer today, right? Uh, as a trainer, uh, or a, a, um, a nu- nutritional coach, right, what am I basing some of my, uh, advisory or, uh, the, um, uh, interventions or the guidance I'm giving my, uh... I think, uh, they'll be able to, uh, function better with data, and I, I think that's what we feel these tools can empower, that we can build. So the- I think every, every coach who is providing, you know, some, uh, aspect of, uh, you know, intervention and support will be able to do better with BioPeak, with data.

Jitendra Chouksey 1:59:14 So, you know, you know, Nikhil, um,

Jitendra Chouksey 1:59:16 I just want to add because, uh, I, I think it might skip my mind, he mentioned datasets. India does not have this, uh, dataset, so there's a huge opportunity for somebody to just build into this.

Nikhil Kamath 1:59:26 How do they go about it? How does a-

Jitendra Chouksey 1:59:28 So-

Nikhil Kamath 1:59:28 ... young person build a business out of this?

Jitendra Chouksey 1:59:30 So AI needs to train on data, right? And we ran into this problem when we were trying to figure out, uh, you know, blood pressure. So, for example, any smart wearable, right? They use regression as a tool to estimate any of these parameters. They don't directly predict these parameters because they are non-invasive, right? So for regression, you need to have a very large dataset. And unfortunately, in India, you don't have datasets. So all the datasets that you have are US-based datasets. And so today, there's a huge... Uh, we have the datasets. It's unorganized. You have the pharma companies, you have hospitals, but nobody has done the job of pulling medical data and put it, put it in, into a trainable dataset.

Nikhil Kamath 2:00:13 But why would a hospital share that data?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:00:15 Uh, that's important.

Prashanth Prakash 2:00:16 And that's where-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:00:16 If India has to ever build anything that it can truly call its own, like if India needs to become a pioneer in AI, it will need to have the datasets. Today, we are talking about blood pressure estimation or, let's say, uh, you know, your HRV estimation. Tomorrow it could be detection of, let's say, tuberculosis-

Nikhil Kamath 2:00:33 Mm

Jitendra Chouksey 2:00:33 ... or something else. All this data is available in hospitals, but it's not digital, it's not trainable. So if somebody says, "Hey, I'm gonna build the largest dataset in India for medical data so that future AIs can be trained on-"

Prashanth Prakash 2:00:45 But that's, that's essentially what the government is trying to do, right?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:00:48 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 2:00:48 Which is to-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:00:49 Well, the-

Prashanth Prakash 2:00:50 -digitize the medical records.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:00:51 Yeah, but that's-

Prashanth Prakash 2:00:52 But they, but they don't have the right, uh... You know, it's, it's a data engineering problem-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:00:56 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:00:57 ... like you said, right? So you'll have all the data-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:00:58 Right

Prashanth Prakash 2:00:59 ... but, uh, you know, in, in, how do you kind of bring it together?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:01:03 Right. You need trainable data.

Prashanth Prakash 2:01:04 I think it's, uh-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:01:05 You need trainable data

Prashanth Prakash 2:01:05 ... and make, make it usable, I think is not something that the government does today.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:01:09 No, I have one question about, uh... So, you know, you come get yourself tested.

Prashanth Prakash 2:01:15 Yes.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:01:16 And you find, say, a certain marker is in, is in, not in the optimal range.

Prashanth Prakash 2:01:22 Correct.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:01:22 Now, the thing is, the guy who is reading the data is not you, right? I mean, the health coach.

Prashanth Prakash 2:01:30 No-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:01:30 Or-

Prashanth Prakash 2:01:31 ... no, it's the AI tool which the health coach can use.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:01:34 Okay.

Prashanth Prakash 2:01:34 You cannot... Yeah, you cannot-- See, the health coach knows, uh, well, it's, this is human-in-the-loop AI.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:01:40 Mm.

Prashanth Prakash 2:01:41 So this is not independent AI.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:01:43 Okay.

Prashanth Prakash 2:01:43 Right?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:01:43 Now, let me, let me put it the right way. Um-

Speaker 2:01:46 ... say HbA1c, right?

Prashanth Prakash 2:01:47 Yes.

Speaker 2:01:48 Uh, it says five point seven percent is, is a cutoff.

Prashanth Prakash 2:01:52 Yes. Yes.

Speaker 2:01:53 Above five point seven is-

Prashanth Prakash 2:01:54 Yes.

Speaker 2:01:55 Now, five point seven, like, my doctor will say, "Up to six point two, you don't have to worry."

Prashanth Prakash 2:02:02 Right.

Speaker 2:02:02 Right?

Prashanth Prakash 2:02:03 Right.

Speaker 2:02:03 Now, someone else will say, "Five point five is diabetes."

Prashanth Prakash 2:02:08 Right.

Speaker 2:02:09 Like, how do you, how do you ensure... You know, if the diabetes at least is straightforward, but, but a lot of other things, how do you, how do you make sure you're in the optimal range? Like, like Bryan right now-

Prashanth Prakash 2:02:22 Yeah, so, yeah

Speaker 2:02:23 ... he probably is in the upside of the range, right? He's trying to optimize to be on the top of the range. But, but in India, what I've seen is most doctors are happy if you're at the bottom of the range also. Like-

Prashanth Prakash 2:02:36 Right. Right

Speaker 2:02:37 ... unless you're, w- uh, if you're outside this range, it's a problem. Like, how do you change that mentality in there?

Prashanth Prakash 2:02:44 See, I, I think that's more of the health manager's job, right?

Speaker 2:02:50 Right.

Prashanth Prakash 2:02:50 To be able to change that. But I can tell you there's one thing that you can help most people who don't know that they are in the trajectory of getting to the pre-diabetes or diabetes stage, right? So that's where certain markers, which, see, HbA1c is where you've already... It's happened, like you're at five point seven, six point two, right? But what if you are building insulin resistance right now, right? So there is a marker, right? Let's say, uh, there's a marker called, um, I think, uh, uh, 2-hydroxybutyrate. Now, if you look at the levels of that marker, it'll tell you that not maybe this year, next year you will be in a pre-diabetic state. So if I can tell you that if this, if this is a marker that I can now indicate to a coach or a health manager and say, "You know what? I know that he's on the path to building insulin resistance, and this will then lead to pre-diabetic or diabetic state, uh, for him to be in that state," right? Can we s- can we look at what is the, uh, what, what, what is the specific set of interventions from the, his nutrition, his exercise, his sleep, and whatever is calling, causing that dysfunction, right? And there are ways in which you can met- metabolically look at why is he, why, why is he, why is that insulin resistance kind of... It could be deprivation of sleep, it could be many, many things. So can you, uh, be a bit more re- uh, proactive and, uh, and precise, uh, with these, uh, markers, is what we want to see. Now, on the, on, on whether you're in, uh, what range, right? I think that is related to, again, Indian data. So it's the same, same thing like BMI. BMI, uh, levels in India, uh, need to be lower because our fat thresholds are lower, right? Unless, uh, In- Indian doctors and in have, have this now... And, and where did this data, uh, get, um, kind of researched? In Singapore, right? Because they are putting money into doing this research to see, to say, "Okay, what is different about Asian genetics," right? How is our genetics different from the Western genetic? If BMI of twenty-five is, is not, is not going to lead to, uh, challenges for somebody there, a metabolic syndrome, uh, in somebody in the US, somebody in India, maybe should be twenty-one, twenty-two, to be able to, uh, not, not get into these challenges. So I think, um, the, the ability to actually look at what is different about our genetic makeup and how that, with the nutrition that we consume, leads us into these disease states, I think is, is, is the broader challenge.

Speaker 2:05:58 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:05:58 So I want to build a business around datasets because India doesn't have it. What would be step one, two, three? I don't have much money. I'm twenty-five years old.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:06:07 I think the easiest thing that you can do is just go to the hospitals, and, uh, maybe you can, uh, you know, work with the government. They have this ABHA, uh, integration, and so-

Nikhil Kamath 2:06:18 What is it?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:06:19 So ABDM-

Nikhil Kamath 2:06:20 Uh.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:06:20 ... is, uh, Ayushman Bharat. So government has decided certain portfolios for what you could be. You could be a, a medical data storer, or you could be a log provider, or you could be just like a, uh, you know, like end service provider. But you can register as one of those, and for that, you just have to show the POC to the government that this is what I intend to do, and you'll get the access keys and everything. And then build case with hospitals. Uh, maybe work with them to figure out how you can get the data and convert them into trainable datasets. So by trainable datasets, uh, what I mean is that you need to first collate all the data, segregate it by age, gender, and all of those things, and then, uh, basis, uh, you know, different kinds of, uh, let's say, comorbidities, right? So that becomes a trainable data, because cleaning data itself is a huge problem. And then do it with one hospital, do it with, let's say, a chain of hospitals, and then, you know, use that data. And if that data can come from, let's say, uh, devices. For example, let's say you have a HR monitor or if you have a SpO2 monitor, that basically becomes a great tool for regression testing.

Speaker 2:07:38 No, the, the, the point here is the data- the Ayushman Bharat, the problem is the hospitals are not digitizing their records. So even though the Ayushman Bharat, the scheme is there, it's not really taking off. Uh-... the, the thing, I think the biggest owners of data, health data, will be Apple and Samsung because of Watch, and-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:08:01 Yeah, I mean, that's, that's what we are trying to do, but [laughing]

Speaker 2:08:04 [laughing] Yeah, because, uh, you know, once you have so much data-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:08:08 Yeah.

Speaker 2:08:09 Uh, that's when-

Speaker 2:08:11 Do Apple and Samsung share this data?

Seema Kamath 2:08:12 No, they don't.

Speaker 2:08:13 Not for a fee?

Seema Kamath 2:08:14 No.

Speaker 2:08:15 No.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:08:15 No, they can't. They can't.

Prashanth Prakash 2:08:16 Now, there is, uh, the other monetization idea here for the data is the insurance companies, right?

Seema Kamath 2:08:21 Mm.

Prashanth Prakash 2:08:22 So you will have to somewhere make a case for the hospital, that once the models are built and the models are predictive on a particular, uh, person's data, right? There is value for the insurer, and that has to be shared with the hospital. So you'll have to make a monetization use case first, right? And, and, uh, there are, um, insurance companies today-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:08:46 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:08:47 ... looking at this very seriously, and they have to because, uh, you know, um, as a country, uh, this is the second-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:08:55 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:08:56 ... uh, kind of dimension of it, right?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:08:57 See, if this is done, for example, today, insurance companies spend a lot of people in assessing hazard ratio. Some of the things are very straightforward, uh, but some of the... It's, it's not a, it's not a, how do you say? It's not an advanced approach.

Prashanth Prakash 2:09:11 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:09:11 They are still following the same approach for, you know, arriving at a hazard ratio, what they did twenty years back. Today, even if somebody is living with, let's say, a condition, for example, in my case, I have hepatitis B, but if you look at all my blood parameters, they're perfect, and my lifestyle is great.

Prashanth Prakash 2:09:27 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:09:27 So there's a good chance that I might outlive somebody who does not have anything like a hepatitis B, but has a really bad lifestyle.

Speaker 2:09:34 Seems?

Seema Kamath 2:09:35 [laughing] What?

Speaker 2:09:36 You want to add something to consumer diagnostics?

Prashanth Prakash 2:09:40 Yeah, what, what would you want to see, right? What-

Speaker 2:09:43 You had a healthy-

Prashanth Prakash 2:09:44 I mean-

Speaker 2:09:44 Like you talked about.

Prashanth Prakash 2:09:44 What, what would you pay for in, in this diagnostic space?

Seema Kamath 2:09:47 What would I pay for?

Prashanth Prakash 2:09:48 Yeah. What, what additional would you pay for beyond what you kind of, uh-

Speaker 2:09:53 Maybe, uh, you know, the f- the fact that, uh, the breast cancer was, could have been detected earlier.

Prashanth Prakash 2:10:03 Yeah, that's what I would s- uh, that, that's what I would claim we can do [chuckles] at, at BioPeak and, uh, you know, um, you can be there, but would that be a useful thing?

Seema Kamath 2:10:13 That... Definitely, that would be a useful thing. Um, prevention would be even better, as you mentioned, right?

Prashanth Prakash 2:10:21 See, prevention, I think, is a very difficult-- I mean-

Seema Kamath 2:10:26 No, it's a difficult thing.

Prashanth Prakash 2:10:27 Because we, we're all, uh, vulnerable to things, right? Let's face it.

Seema Kamath 2:10:30 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 2:10:31 Because-

Seema Kamath 2:10:31 But what you said, right?

Prashanth Prakash 2:10:32 Yeah.

Seema Kamath 2:10:32 Like, like a gut, something-

Prashanth Prakash 2:10:34 Yeah

Seema Kamath 2:10:34 ... like a gut bio-

Prashanth Prakash 2:10:35 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Seema Kamath 2:10:35 You said, you know, if there are any abnormalities-

Prashanth Prakash 2:10:37 Yes, you, you can-

Seema Kamath 2:10:39 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:10:39 ... you can say certain strains, again, are indicative of certain impending, uh, uh, disease states, uh, Alzheimer, uh, uh, Parkinson's, and all of these. So I think, yeah, it, there is enough data on this, but going back to what JC and May are saying, there is no correlation of this data to the Indian, uh-

Speaker 2:11:02 Somebody needs to build a business around the dataset.

Prashanth Prakash 2:11:05 We have to, we, we have to build a d- And, no, but some of it, uh, you know, I know that you probably don't like this answer, but it requires research funding.

Seema Kamath 2:11:13 Mm.

Prashanth Prakash 2:11:13 Right? Which is not a business today, right? Uh, some of-

Speaker 2:11:18 But why do you need research money for creating a dataset?

Prashanth Prakash 2:11:21 No, because, like, today, nobody is measuring that gut. Uh, no, nobody has that amount of data on the gut, right?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:11:29 See, we are assuming hospitals are keeping clean data.

Prashanth Prakash 2:11:31 Yeah, they don't have it.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:11:31 Chances are they might not.

Seema Kamath 2:11:32 No, they are not.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:11:33 Yeah.

Speaker 2:11:34 JC, some whiskey for you. [laughing]

Speaker 2:11:36 [laughing] Okay, so here's the difference.

Seema Kamath 2:11:38 What is the spectrum? [laughing]

Speaker 2:11:40 Look, no, no, no. Class One carcinogen. [laughing] Right? So-

Speaker 2:11:44 It's kombucha.

Speaker 2:11:44 Kombucha. [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 2:11:44 It's kombucha. [laughing]

Speaker 2:11:46 Yeah, it works. [laughing] Come on, Nikhil. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 2:11:54 So, so, JC, is there a spectrum in alcohol? I mean, I think alcohol is a, is a zero-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:11:59 Zero spectrum

Prashanth Prakash 2:11:59 ... zero one, right? So there is no spectrum. I mean, any am-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:12:02 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:12:02 ... any amount of alcohol is bad.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:12:04 Yes.

Prashanth Prakash 2:12:04 Right? Uh, and I think, uh-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:12:06 Yeah, I agree with this.

Speaker 2:12:07 But, but in the spectrum, isn't something allowed, [chuckles] like, like not-

Prashanth Prakash 2:12:11 With alcohol, right?

Speaker 2:12:12 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 2:12:12 It's like, it maybe once a month. [chuckles]

Jitendra Chouksey 2:12:17 See, we are talking-

Prashanth Prakash 2:12:18 Yeah

Jitendra Chouksey 2:12:18 ... cellular level. There are things that affect you at a cellular level, and there are things that don't mess with you at a cellular level.

Prashanth Prakash 2:12:23 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:12:24 Okay? Alcohol has formaldehyde. Formaldehyde has the potential to damage your DNA. So at a cellular level, it is damaging. Now, just in case, I mean, case in point, so we talk about cancer, right? Everybody has cancer genes, but how do cancers spread? Basically, your cells start dividing uncontrollably. When the genetic code that controls the growth of cell, cell division, mitosis, that code is either damaged, right? Or let's say, over a period of time, the cells are like, "We don't want, we don't want to follow this. We want to follow something else." So mutation. And this happens when you have carcinogens that have the potential to disrupt your DNA. Alcohol, any amount of alcohol will have formaldehyde, right? And the minute it enters your system, it does not even need to go through each and every cell of your body. Even in your blood, you have blood cells, you have, uh, you know, uh, white cells, you have red cells, you have so many cells. It can start messing around with cell division of any of these cells.

Speaker 2:13:28 I was, uh-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:13:29 Then you have liver, right? So, so many places where it can attack these cells.

Speaker 2:13:32 I was, uh, listening

Speaker 2:13:33 in on a podcast, Dave Asprey, and-

Prashanth Prakash 2:13:37 Mm

Speaker 2:13:38 ... he was talking about kava. Do you know about kava?

Prashanth Prakash 2:13:41 Yeah.

Speaker 2:13:41 It's a-

Prashanth Prakash 2:13:42 Sorry, what?

Speaker 2:13:42 Kava.

Prashanth Prakash 2:13:43 Kava, kava.

Speaker 2:13:44 Apparently-

Seema Kamath 2:13:45 K-A-V-A?

Speaker 2:13:45 K-A-V-A.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:13:46 Kava, kava.

Speaker 2:13:47 So, so it's a type of drink, uh, which is made from the roots of a, uh, some kind of vegetable or fruit or whatever, and people are drinking it to get slightly intoxicated.... and, and, and it's, it's becoming popular in the US apparently. So, so yeah, so kava drink, you know.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:14:08 And, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 2:14:09 Even coffee is intoxicating, right?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:14:10 Dave Asprey, do you have-

Speaker 2:14:11 Yeah, caffeine.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:14:12 Yeah, Dave Asprey, I have my own, uh, I don't know. [chuckles]

Speaker 2:14:14 Yeah, same. I, I share the same thing. [chuckles]

Jitendra Chouksey 2:14:15 So we share the same thing on- [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 2:14:17 So who is good?

Speaker 2:14:19 Dave Asprey is not. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 2:14:19 I know, I know your views on Bryan. Let's go to the next one. [chuckles]

Jitendra Chouksey 2:14:23 No, no-

Nikhil Kamath 2:14:23 Huberman?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:14:24 I think, I think honestly-

Speaker 2:14:25 Bryan, I think we both-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:14:26 We both agree the same thing, that he does more right than wrong. Like his basics and everything is in order. What I have problem with is some of the experimental therapeutics, the hundred pills and everything. Most of these things are unvalidated. So as long as he's keeping those experiments in check, and he's doing it on himself as a science experiment, good. I'm just saying don't preach those experiments on people, because you are doing follistatin, you are replacing your albumin, uh, your blood plasma with albumin. People are going to do that. And these are, first of all, very expensive treatments with side effects.

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:00 But if nobody does the research, how do, how do we ever innovate?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:15:03 No, no, so, so that's what he's saying. To do it yourself, but don't say that-

Speaker 2:15:06 Don't, don't tell to people. Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:07 But is he saying or asking people to try out?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:15:09 No, I think to that extent he's doing fine, I think.

Speaker 2:15:11 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:15:11 I mean, so-

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:12 Huberman, good? Dave Asprey, who else?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:15:15 Huberman, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:16 Tim Ferriss.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:15:16 Huberman, largely good.

Speaker 2:15:17 Ferriss. Largely good, yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:15:19 Uh, David Sinclair? Mixed.

Speaker 2:15:22 Same. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:24 Tim Ferriss?

Speaker 2:15:25 Tim Ferriss is not really longevity, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:27 No? Who else is there?

Speaker 2:15:28 And, uh, Peter Attia.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:15:30 Peter Attia?

Speaker 2:15:30 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:15:31 Largely good.

Speaker 2:15:32 Good, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:32 JC FitTe?

Speaker 2:15:34 JC FitTe, very good. [laughing]

Speaker 2:15:37 Look, I'm, I'm not a scientist.

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:38 Let's do the Indian ones, okay? [chuckles] JC FitTe, Marcus Ramney?

Speaker 2:15:43 Marcus Ramney. Yeah, he's good.

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:44 Marcus Ramney.

Speaker 2:15:45 He's good.

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:46 Your, uh, Endo. What's his name? Kadambi. [chuckles]

Speaker 2:15:50 Kadambi. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:52 See, I'll give you some more name.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:15:53 See, I'll tell you, I think, uh, uh, you know, the... I mean, I have one or two benchmarks in how to look at, I mean, whether it's Indian or how, how compromised are they in terms of selling or being, you know, married to some product or supplement, right? So you've got to watch out. And second, I think in some cases, they, they just have this super ego and want to, uh, kind of satisfy that ego and want to make, uh, you know, certain claims just to, uh, j- just to kind of get, uh, uh, to stand out, right? And, and I think a lot of social influencing in, in this space is around that. And third, um, being single dimensional, right? A lot of them, s- they, they're like: Okay, you've got to be traditional in everything that you do, right? You've got to eat like what your-

Speaker 2:16:58 Ancestors

Jitendra Chouksey 2:16:59 ... uh, ancestors eat.

Speaker 2:16:59 Yeah, yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:17:00 It's just, it's not contextual-

Speaker 2:17:02 Yeah

Jitendra Chouksey 2:17:02 ... right? So I, I think you should watch out for any of these signals-

Speaker 2:17:07 Yeah

Jitendra Chouksey 2:17:08 ... and use them as, uh, you know-

Speaker 2:17:10 I, I actually, I want to ask JC something.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:17:13 Yeah.

Speaker 2:17:13 You're the only influencer left now since Bryan is gone, but do you get a lot of hate for what you say? I mean, because everything ha- you know, in, in the health, in the topic of health influencing, there's no right way. There is... I mean, there are different ways. So do you, do you get hate on-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:17:32 Yeah, I do. I do, I do. So most of the times, the hate comes from a place of ignorance. I'm on the side of being rational and being logical-

Speaker 2:17:42 Mm

Jitendra Chouksey 2:17:42 ... than being driven by, uh, any of the other things, which is, which could be culture, religion, propaganda, politics, right? So because you can't have science mixed up with these things, that's a very dangerous concoction.

Speaker 2:17:53 Si- I mean, with, with science, uh, there might be people who have a strong, uh, strong sci- strong science backing a certain idea. Like, you might say, um, um, say, say, for example, kava, I just spoke about. You might say kava is not good, and someone might say kava is good. How do you prove that? That biggest challenge-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:18:17 Right

Speaker 2:18:18 ... for people like us, I mean, three of us-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:18:21 Yeah

Speaker 2:18:21 ... is you listen to-

Nikhil Kamath 2:18:23 Supplement consumers.

Speaker 2:18:24 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:18:25 Right.

Speaker 2:18:25 Supplement consumers.

Speaker 2:18:26 Yeah.

Speaker 2:18:26 Yes.

Speaker 2:18:26 No, I, I asked him the same question. I'm like: How right is it, is it to follow someone, and then they list out, you know, "I take this, that, that," and then you just, "Oh, okay, you know what? Let me buy all these," and how, how safe is that?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:18:41 Right. So the problem happens is when, when people don't understand the basics, and by basics, basic can be very complicated. For example, biochemistry is extremely complex. So unless until somebody understands the biochemistry, they won't be able to ask the right questions. For example, let's say Bryan, for example. For a, for a layman, he would be easily, uh, he would have been able to convince somebody that, "Hey, take NMN. Uh, it's a precursor to NAD. Kids have lots of NAD. You don't have enough NAD, and that's why you're aging. So if you take more NAD, you will s- slow down your aging." Somebody who understands biochemistry will throw homeostasis at him. Somebody will tell him, "Hey, that's not how the body works." Most of the NAD and NADH is produced in the mitochondria itself, and it's produced depending on the metabolic efficiency. Like, an unfit person would require more amount of food to produce less amount of ATP, and, and, and vice versa, right? So somebody who understands the reactions, somebody who understands the body's physiology, he would be able to ask the right kind of questions. If you don't ask the right kind of questions, you'll likely agree to them. That's the problem, and which is happening with primarily everybody. Ten years back, when I started, my knowledge was primarily restricted to nutrition, which is energy balance and exercise science. Over the years, I learned biochemistry, I learned physiology, then statistics, uh, how to do research. So all of those things had to be assimilated, and unfortunately, there's no course in India or outside that provides you a three-sixty view.

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:09 Is that a business idea? Start a course.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:20:11 It, it should be.

Speaker 2:20:12 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:20:12 It should be.

Speaker 2:20:13 They need it.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:20:13 It's due of time.... I mean, we do it through INFS, uh, but it's not at a level where we inculcate extreme-

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:20 What is INFS?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:20:21 INFS is our sister concern, so we train our coaches there. But in fact, I was just thinking about it. I was gonna have a chat with, uh, you know, my co-founder that, you know, INFS, at this time, when INFS goes into the depth of everything-

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:36 Yeah

Jitendra Chouksey 2:20:36 ... like you cover not just nutrition training and basic clinical nutrition, but-

Prashanth Prakash 2:20:40 Yeah, I think we should-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:20:41 Biochemistry-

Prashanth Prakash 2:20:41 We should talk about that.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:20:42 Physiology.

Prashanth Prakash 2:20:42 I think we can help, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:43 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 2:20:43 I mean, especially-

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:44 We can do it together.

Prashanth Prakash 2:20:45 Yeah. We should-

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:46 Sure.

Prashanth Prakash 2:20:46 We should talk about it.

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:46 Certainly. Do you want to finish your thought on cancer detection? You were saying something. You got cut off.

Seema Kamath 2:20:52 No, I mean-

Prashanth Prakash 2:20:52 No,

Prashanth Prakash 2:20:53 I, I, I think, uh, the other challenge a lot of cancer, uh, survivors would have-

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:58 Mm

Prashanth Prakash 2:20:58 ... is, uh, how do I know that this thing is not going to recover, right? Uh, recur, right? And for recurrence, is, is there certain markers again that I can be more proactive and predictive?

Seema Kamath 2:21:11 No, also-

Prashanth Prakash 2:21:12 Yeah

Seema Kamath 2:21:12 ... oncologists, right, in India are very-

Prashanth Prakash 2:21:14 Yeah.

Seema Kamath 2:21:14 I mean, it's very black and white.

Prashanth Prakash 2:21:16 Yeah.

Seema Kamath 2:21:16 You have to take this pill so that you don't, you-

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:20 That hormone you keep saying you have to take for six years or something-

Seema Kamath 2:21:22 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:22 ... but you don't want to take.

Prashanth Prakash 2:21:23 Yeah.

Seema Kamath 2:21:24 E-exactly, right? But then over time, uh, that... I mean, that tablet has a side effect that it might cause cervical cancer.

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:33 In muscle, in workout, and all that.

Seema Kamath 2:21:35 Exactly. Uh, you know, my, um, bone density is not very great. It's not deteriorating, but it's not even getting better. I have joint pains. Uh, I have hot flashes. I'm, I mean, so I'm, like, thinking, "Do I want to live, you know, take this pill for the next, whatever, seven, eight years and live like this?" One... I mean, just through, just that ops- chance that I, you know, I won't get cancer, or do I want to live a good quality of life, just maintain a healthy diet and be like, you know what? And, and not take the pill.

Nikhil Kamath 2:22:11 So it seems you've had a couple of years of torture. I've seen you gone, go through operation, I don't know, half a dozen times in the last two years. What could have made the experience better for you? The entire thing, from the beginning, from going to Noora, getting detected, to finding a doctor in Manipal, then here, then there, then surgery, then plastic surgery.

Seema Kamath 2:22:38 If I think back, um, see, I mean, luckily, we are in a position that it wasn't very bad for me, but then-

Nikhil Kamath 2:22:51 What does that mean?

Seema Kamath 2:22:51 If I... In the sense, I had family support. We-

Prashanth Prakash 2:22:55 Financially.

Nikhil Kamath 2:22:55 Financially.

Seema Kamath 2:22:55 A financial independence. We didn't have to really think about money, because that's the first thing, right? Like, because my question to her when she said, "I have breast cancer," was reconstructive surgery. But she said, "Normal people ask how much the surgery will cost," right? The mastectomy. So but then if I think, like, from a, you know, [inhales] woman's perspective, I think firstly, no one even bothered about my mental state of mind. It was all about just, um, "Oh, cancer? We have to do this, this, this." Also, just to find the right doctors, I mean, it was so difficult. It's, it's not easy to find the right oncologist, especially without, I mean, you know, any, uh... Like we had- I mean, you knew a lot of people, so we figured it out. But I would really... I mean, it'll be great if there is a database where I know everyone will have different experience with them.

Nikhil Kamath 2:23:58 You think like a doctor ranking system business?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:24:00 A curated marketplace for doctors.

Prashanth Prakash 2:24:02 No, I think this is-

Seema Kamath 2:24:03 Even that is-

Prashanth Prakash 2:24:04 This is an area in BioPeek-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:24:05 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:24:05 ... we want to be able to do, uh, which is, I think the expert... See, everybody, like I said, comes with either something that they don't know about or people come with a problem they already ha-

Seema Kamath 2:24:19 Yes

Prashanth Prakash 2:24:19 ... already have, right? There, for how can you make that expert opinion, right, more accessible, right? Uh, both at an India level and maybe at a regional level.

Nikhil Kamath 2:24:36 No, what I mean is if she got detected for cancer-

Prashanth Prakash 2:24:40 Yes

Nikhil Kamath 2:24:40 ... and seems want to, wants to find out which doctors fall in the top five percentile-

Prashanth Prakash 2:24:45 That's exactly what I'm saying

Nikhil Kamath 2:24:46 ... top 20 percentile.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:24:47 No, but, but the thing is-

Prashanth Prakash 2:24:48 Yeah, will, will you be able to guide the person, right?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:24:52 No, but, but how do you guide them? Because the-

Prashanth Prakash 2:24:53 No, because, because you have built those, uh... Because as BioPeek, you have the relationships with them, with those doctors.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:25:01 But that, that is only, you're going to only so- solve for a small subset of people.

Prashanth Prakash 2:25:04 Yeah, of course.

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:05 I feel like every doctor should be so- solved for by virtue of maybe the success rate of-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:25:09 Then it becomes like Zomato and Swiggy, the re- restaurant rating on that.

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:13 It gets gamed.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:25:14 Yeah, it's gate games, because so anyone-

Seema Kamath 2:25:17 No, also with doctor, right, it's very different. I might have a wonderful experience with someone, but then someone else might not have that kind of.

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:25 But that will net off, right?

Seema Kamath 2:25:27 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:27 Like after a hundred people, if 70 have had-

Prashanth Prakash 2:25:29 Typically, you have-

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:29 ... good experience with this doctor.

Seema Kamath 2:25:31 Okay, yeah. Then, yeah, that's true.

Prashanth Prakash 2:25:31 Yeah.

Seema Kamath 2:25:32 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:32 So a business around a non-schemable way of ranking doctors-

Prashanth Prakash 2:25:36 Ranking doctors and getting access to networks-

Seema Kamath 2:25:39 Yes

Prashanth Prakash 2:25:39 ... that are of highly credible-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:25:42 No, Practo was supposed to be that, right?

Prashanth Prakash 2:25:43 Who?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:25:43 Practo.

Prashanth Prakash 2:25:44 Yeah, but, uh, they, they, again, like I said, you know, you, you need to be really curated, and it's not something that can be, uh-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:25:53 Yeah, I, I don't think Practo is curated.

Prashanth Prakash 2:25:54 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:25:54 They're more of a listing platform.

Prashanth Prakash 2:25:56 Listing platform, but not-

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:57 You, you have the ratings there, right?

Prashanth Prakash 2:25:59 Yeah, but I think, uh-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:26:00 Non-schemable.

Prashanth Prakash 2:26:01 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:26:01 Non-schemable.

Prashanth Prakash 2:26:01 It's, it's non-non-schemable.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:26:03 Like, who's vouching for-

Prashanth Prakash 2:26:05 Yeah

Jitendra Chouksey 2:26:05 ... uh, the quality? There has to be a system that says, you know, if somebody has given you a bad rating, that stays.

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:11 Like a quality agency in itself-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:26:13 Yes

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:13 ... which does nothing else.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:26:15 Yep.

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:15 Goes to the hospital when you have your surgery, sits there for one hour.... does thousands of repetitions of this.

Speaker 2:26:21 What is also monetization?

Prashanth Prakash 2:26:23 There, there are actually agencies like this-

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:25 Hospitals will be-

Prashanth Prakash 2:26:25 -in the US who monetize this.

Speaker 2:26:27 No, but, uh-

Prashanth Prakash 2:26:27 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:27 We charge the hospital.

Speaker 2:26:29 Hospital? Why will the hospital pay?

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:31 To get better ranking doctors and to have quality check of their own doctors.

Speaker 2:26:35 Yeah, that's what-

Prashanth Prakash 2:26:36 Quality, I, I don't think-

Speaker 2:26:37 reputation for hospitals.

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:38 Yeah.

Speaker 2:26:38 Hospital, th- then it becomes like, uh, uh, what is said?

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:42 Still... [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 2:26:44 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:45 S&P Moody's. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 2:26:48 No, but, uh, but still, I mean, while it's game to some extent, but it's still reasonably credible, don't you-

Speaker 2:26:53 But, but, but you think about it, there was this, uh, company-

Prashanth Prakash 2:26:55 [chuckles]

Speaker 2:26:56 -called Second Opinion. Um, and they found out, they did a survey, and they found out that almost forty-one percent of the surgeries were unnecessary. So how is it that two doctors, one is saying, "Go for a surgery," and one is saying, "Don't go for a surgery?"

Nikhil Kamath 2:27:10 So what we're saying is an intermediary quality agency which sits in between a patient and a doctor in a hospital, right?

Prashanth Prakash 2:27:17 At a very broad level.

Nikhil Kamath 2:27:18 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 2:27:18 And for at a premium level, a more curated subset of that for people who can afford. I think both are opportunities. Nikhil, the one thing we missed is talking about is devices. So I was just talking about, uh, a device that's available in the US today to measure VO2 max for a normal person. You know, no, it's not a hundred thousand, you know, complicated, uh, device, right? I think a lot of these, uh, will have value in India and, uh, um, good monetization potential, too. And, uh-

Speaker 2:27:52 No, but, but most of the devices-

Prashanth Prakash 2:27:54 Yeah.

Speaker 2:27:56 JC, excuse me on this, but [chuckles] is, is really, are not really Indian-made, as in you, you- you're forced because there is no supply chain of these devices, so you're forced to go to China-

Prashanth Prakash 2:28:11 So-

Speaker 2:28:11 ... pick up something and come and sell it, as in-

Prashanth Prakash 2:28:14 No, but, I mean, let's leave the China angle-

Speaker 2:28:16 Right

Prashanth Prakash 2:28:17 ... aside, right? So you as a m- you still are owning the IP, and you're manufacturing it-

Speaker 2:28:23 No, but-

Prashanth Prakash 2:28:23 -uh, in China, right? So hopefully-

Speaker 2:28:25 But, but the thing about... My whole thing about this devices thing is, the guys with the biggest distribution are gonna kill it.

Prashanth Prakash 2:28:33 Yes.

Speaker 2:28:33 Right?

Prashanth Prakash 2:28:34 See, now, uh, I'm, I'm somewhere taking Nikhil's startup thing as not only-

Speaker 2:28:39 Right

Prashanth Prakash 2:28:39 ... startups that can become all five hundred billion to a billion, right?

Speaker 2:28:44 Yeah, I mean-

Prashanth Prakash 2:28:44 I'm looking at-

Speaker 2:28:44 No, the thing is, if you're only a dis- only a wearable company, getting to that itself is really tough, because how do you differentiate? Now, JC has got, FITTR's got a community, so he can sell, sell them rings, right?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:29:01 No, no, our primary business model is not the ring itself.

Speaker 2:29:03 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:29:03 You know, the-

Speaker 2:29:04 It's, it's not

Jitendra Chouksey 2:29:04 ... primary business model is changing the metrics.

Speaker 2:29:07 Right.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:29:07 Once you get the data, what do you do with the data?

Speaker 2:29:09 Yeah. So but, but how do you, how do you... You know, the thing is wearable, now, if, if this person goes and gets the VO2 max, uh, whatever device, uh, there'll be ten others replicating it in no time.

Prashanth Prakash 2:29:23 No, no, there is IP. That's what I'm saying. See, some of these devices, I believe in India, in the next ten years, there will be some IP... E- every, every, every IP need not be just a follow-on IP, like what we've had in the last ten years, is where I'm going, Nithin, right? Why, why can't we believe that, uh, there are certain medical device IPs that will be, uh, novel and, um, at a price point, uh, in India that will, will be more usable and deployable in the country, compared to just importing-

Speaker 2:30:03 That's, that's-

Prashanth Prakash 2:30:05 -stuff.

Speaker 2:30:05 If an Indian can come up with a IP that-

Prashanth Prakash 2:30:08 Yes

Speaker 2:30:08 ... he can call his own.

Prashanth Prakash 2:30:09 Yes.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:30:10 No, Nikhil-

Prashanth Prakash 2:30:11 Yes

Jitendra Chouksey 2:30:11 ... but see, even if you make any high-end manufacturing, take any high-end device, ninety percent of all electronics is China, Taiwan, and South Korea. So you cannot truly-

Nikhil Kamath 2:30:23 Even Apple

Jitendra Chouksey 2:30:23 ... control the IP from a hardware point of view.

Speaker 2:30:26 Right.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:30:26 But there's a lot of IP involved in the not hardware side of things. For example, you can patent on the design. All right? You can patent in the algorithms, you can patent in the function. So there's a lot of IP-able thing that you can do. But to the point where, uh, you know, nowadays, anybody can challenge any IP, and all you have to do is, like, just make small differentiation, and then it'll take years for somebody to prove that it's the same thing. So, you know, even IP is not entirely protectable. So I think in today's market, the thing is, first to market, distribution, that's pretty much it, so...

Prashanth Prakash 2:31:02 And, uh, you can also look at distribution, I mean, again, just to, uh, look at Ultrahuman, right? Uh, they went to every country where Aura is not there first, and said: Can we solve for-

Speaker 2:31:16 No, Ultrahuman has an Achilles heel.

Prashanth Prakash 2:31:17 Yeah. So I'm saying, why can't we have ten such companies, uh, come up? You know, people have... We learn from the old playbooks. We'll build on those playbooks. And like I said, in science and engineering, I think we are getting better. You know, I think Ultrahuman also made a, at least a few, uh, at a software level, I think, uh-

Speaker 2:31:39 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:31:39 ... uh, they, they did some, some innovations and-

Speaker 2:31:42 No, it's, it's never just the hardware.

Prashanth Prakash 2:31:44 Yeah, it-

Speaker 2:31:44 Trust me-

Prashanth Prakash 2:31:45 So

Speaker 2:31:45 ... the kind, like, when you, when you get the hardware, the hardware is, like, bare minimum. So you can take the hardware, ten other people can take the hardware. Design is where you have elementary control. Like, okay, my device is going to look a certain way, it's going to feel a certain way, the packaging is good. Software is where the differentiation lies, because at the end of the day, what is the user looking at? He's looking at the data on his phone. What all features are there? How accurate is it?

Nikhil Kamath 2:32:10 Like, if you extrapolate, everything is China and TSMC, right? Including Apple and Nvidia and-

Prashanth Prakash 2:32:14 But, but the AI-

Nikhil Kamath 2:32:15 No, no, no

Prashanth Prakash 2:32:15 ... and the software layer on top of it, right, will be something that-... will make a difference, and you can own-

Speaker 2:32:21 Yes.

Prashanth Prakash 2:32:21 - is, I guess, what we're saying.

Speaker 2:32:22 No, I, I, uh, by, uh... I'm not talking about the manufacturing. I'm talking about Apple going to China saying, "I wanna make Apple Watches," versus someone else going to China saying, "I want a Apple Watch." Right? As in, it's, uh, it's two different things, you know-

Prashanth Prakash 2:32:40 But let's look at, uh, the idea of wearables itself-

Speaker 2:32:44 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:32:44 ... right? In ten years, I think we'll be in a different place. The type of things we'll be sensing and measuring continuously, I think will be dramatically different.

Speaker 2:32:56 Yeah, for sure.

Prashanth Prakash 2:32:56 And there, I believe there are a lot of, uh, opportunities for Indian entrepreneurs, too.

Speaker 2:33:02 One of the things I, I, I hope is a chip somewhere planted in between. It can measure my glucose, it can measure my- [chuckles]

Prashanth Prakash 2:33:10 I'm, I'm su- that... So, so your, your, your co- uh, cortisols, your cortisols-

Speaker 2:33:15 Cortisol

Prashanth Prakash 2:33:15 ... your glucose, and, uh-

Speaker 2:33:17 Blood, blood report, everything.

Prashanth Prakash 2:33:19 Yeah.

Speaker 2:33:19 Everything.

Prashanth Prakash 2:33:19 Dynamically, right, uh, my, my guess, ten years.

Speaker 2:33:25 Yeah, I would love to-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:33:26 I, I, I'd say it's already there in the works

Speaker 2:33:28 ... draw my blood. [chuckles]

Jitendra Chouksey 2:33:28 There are some countries which are doing, uh, research on this.

Speaker 2:33:31 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:33:32 Yeah, they just plant a chip inside your body. They'll do a surgery, and then it'll measure everything.

Prashanth Prakash 2:33:36 Hey, there is one device now that can measure lactate-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:33:40 Mm-hmm

Prashanth Prakash 2:33:40 ... and glucose continuously. Uh, so you, you, you want to know your zone, too?

Speaker 2:33:45 Like, like install, uh, as in-

Prashanth Prakash 2:33:47 No, no, no, it just senses.

Speaker 2:33:48 Oh, okay.

Prashanth Prakash 2:33:48 It senses at the skin level.

Speaker 2:33:51 Oh.

Prashanth Prakash 2:33:51 Uh, I mean, there are certain, uh, sk- skin-level changes that you can sense when your, uh, when your lactate levels are higher, right? So, um, so there's, uh, some of these devices for con- because how do you know you're in zone two? Through some lactate measurement, so you're-

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:09 Popular opinion, if you had to buy one device,

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:12 Whoop or a Ul- Ultrahuman, Apple, Google- [laughing]

Speaker 2:34:18 [laughing] Yeah, go on

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:19 ... JC FITTR. [laughing]

Speaker 2:34:20 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:20 What device do we buy? One device.

Speaker 2:34:23 Uh-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:34:23 D- don't say anything. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:24 I know your answer, but I'll ask you. [laughing]

Speaker 2:34:26 [chuckles] It's a heart ring.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:34:29 Uh, you know, I, I, I might be the only one who would be able to explain you what each of these things do.

Prashanth Prakash 2:34:33 No, no, you please go ahead.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:34:34 And help-

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:34 Yeah, yeah, go for it.

Prashanth Prakash 2:34:36 Please go ahead.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:34:36 Help you improve them-

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:37 [chuckles]

Jitendra Chouksey 2:34:37 - because most of the people who buy these gadgets, right, they don't know what to do next. I think that's... And that actually is the problem we were trying to solve. We didn't want to be like another gadget. First, we sent out a proposal to these companies, and we're like: "Hey, we have a community. We have coaches. We are amazing at, you know, helping people fix their lifestyles. Uh, why don't you guys partner with us?" And when we didn't show any response, then we looked at, can we do something of our own? So it was like w- watches, bands, and they were like, "Okay, ring is the best," because it technically has the more number of hours of people wearing them, because watches tend to get uncomfortable. And so today, our differentiation is not the hardware. The differentiation is, look, here's a hardware which is decently good. It provides all the metrics as accurately as any other devices, uh, probably better than smartwatches. But you look at the metrics, and what next, right? Which is where you keep wondering. If you are with somebody else, you'll be like: "Hey, this is my VO2 max." Now, what the hell is VO2 max? Or, "This is my RHR. What the hell does my RHR indicate?" Or, "What is this HRV fluctuation happening? What should I measure?" Right, so even though there's a lot of data on what these are, there's no data on how can you systematically get them better.

Nikhil Kamath 2:35:54 So it's not about the device, it's what sits on top of the device.

Prashanth Prakash 2:35:56 But, uh, JC, um, um, things like, let's say, how your activity is measured, right? Are there s- some such functions where one device is better than the other?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:36:10 Yes. So it all depends on sampling rate. For example, again, you have Apple Watch, for instance. They don't sample your heart rate as frequently as, let's say, a Whoop.

Prashanth Prakash 2:36:18 Mm, yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:36:19 So in terms of sampling, Whoop has the highest sampling rate-

Prashanth Prakash 2:36:21 Sampling, yeah

Jitendra Chouksey 2:36:21 ... and that's why it's most accurate. So when we do calculation for certain things, like for example, HR, SpO2, and HRV-

Prashanth Prakash 2:36:28 Yeah

Jitendra Chouksey 2:36:28 ... these are pretty standard functions. Most of the devices will get them accurately, right? But when we talk about, let's say, calorie expenditure-

Prashanth Prakash 2:36:35 And activities, I think then Whoop kind of-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:36:37 Right. So Whoop would be far more accurate because-

Prashanth Prakash 2:36:40 Yeah

Jitendra Chouksey 2:36:40 ... it's sampling the heart rate every minute, and then because of that, it's using a better formula, which is your heart rate load.

Prashanth Prakash 2:36:47 Right.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:36:47 Because there's a direct correlation between-

Prashanth Prakash 2:36:49 Got it, got it

Jitendra Chouksey 2:36:49 ... heart rate load and your energy expenditure. Other devices are using MET equivalents. You know the problem with MET equivalents, right? They are a generalized derivation of, from a generalized set of people, so they're not very accurate. So you go to the gym, your Apple Watch will show you, you have burned six hundred calories in an hour, whereas a Whoop or a heart ring will show, oh, you only burned two hundred fifty calories.

Speaker 2:37:08 But, but what I've seen, okay, I've used everything.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:37:12 Yeah.

Speaker 2:37:13 I mean, I find Apple Watch convenient, and the reason I find it convenient, it's not very intrusive. Uh, about this calorie thing, I get it, but, but the thing is, it's consistent along the lines. So if you, if you, if you know what is burning thousand calories on Apple Watch, you can assume it's not a thousand.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:37:31 Yes, yes.

Speaker 2:37:31 It's six hundred, five hundred, whatever, right? But then, but it gives you a consistent five hundred. Now, with Whoop-

Nikhil Kamath 2:37:37 So does Whoop, right?

Speaker 2:37:38 Yeah, it does. It, so consistently it does, but the thing is, Whoop is wearing-

Speaker 2:37:42 You have to wear it twenty-four hours.

Speaker 2:37:43 Twenty-four hours is, is just-

Nikhil Kamath 2:37:45 I wear it on my feet. I used to wear it on my feet. [laughing]

Speaker 2:37:48 [chuckles] Yeah, that's-

Nikhil Kamath 2:37:49 For three months.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:37:50 [chuckles] That's true.

Nikhil Kamath 2:37:50 But then you have to ch- carry that separate... I think every device in the world should have a C-type.

Speaker 2:37:55 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:37:56 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:37:56 It makes no sense to have a weird charger for a weird thing. [laughing]

Speaker 2:37:59 We added a C-type. [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 2:38:01 [chuckles] Yeah, I mean-

Nikhil Kamath 2:38:03 That's why I stopped wearing it.

Prashanth Prakash 2:38:04 Uh, what about, uh, CGM?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:38:06 [exhales] CGM, again, I'm not a huge fan of CGM. It's great for diabetics, but in non-diabetics, there's no data that suggests it helps non-diabetics. I mean, apart from making people feel scared of every single food on the planet that spikes their blood glucose. And you know-... that blood glucose spikes are completely fine.

Prashanth Prakash 2:38:24 Yes, they're fine-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:38:24 There's no problem with bl-blood glucose spike.

Prashanth Prakash 2:38:26 They need to come down in a reasonable way.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:38:27 Yeah, exactly. So-

Prashanth Prakash 2:38:29 But, but for somebody who is probably, you know, in some stages of pre-diabetes-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:38:39 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:38:39 ... right? And wants to really optimize their, the type of food they eat-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:38:45 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:38:45 -and optimize maybe also the eating windows and kind of go through that phase of seeing what works for them.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:38:54 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 2:38:55 I think it, in my opinion, it has value.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:38:57 There's a level of-

Prashanth Prakash 2:38:58 Yeah

Jitendra Chouksey 2:38:58 -personalization that the devices can offer.

Prashanth Prakash 2:39:00 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:39:01 But I think today that level of personalization is not like a hidden treasure, I would say. Everybody would agree, "Hey, eat a little bit earlier-

Prashanth Prakash 2:39:09 Yeah, it's-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:39:10 -earlier bedtime. Um, eat fewer meals than you would, like, don't harp on six or seven meals."

Prashanth Prakash 2:39:16 Correct.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:39:16 "And then eat within your calorie intake." If you want to figure out that basis a CGM device, sure. But I'd say that you're kind of overcomplicating stuff, because this stuff is out there in the open. Um, you know, but if, if somebody feels that, you know, instead of nine o'clock, my CGM tell- tells me to eat at eight o'clock, well, more power to you. [chuckles]

Speaker 2:39:39 Longevity

Speaker 2:39:40 supplements, this is the big one. Everybody will-

Prashanth Prakash 2:39:43 [laughing]

Speaker 2:39:44 I know we're all taking different things. [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 2:39:46 I mean-

Speaker 2:39:46 Even though JC might say no-

Prashanth Prakash 2:39:48 JC

Speaker 2:39:48 ... in his head, I know he's getting something. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 2:39:50 I'm not, I'm not taking anything. I can go on record and tell you guys, I'm not taking anything. [chuckles]

Speaker 2:39:54 I was looking through your bag, and I found this growth hormone needle. [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 2:40:06 [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:06 [laughing] No.

Speaker 2:40:06 I didn't bring it back.

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:08 No, I think supplements will continue to be a huge business.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:40:11 Yeah.

Speaker 2:40:11 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:12 Huge business.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:40:12 Unfortunately, yes, it's going to be a huge business because-

Speaker 2:40:15 Okay, what works?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:40:16 There's a lot of takers.

Speaker 2:40:16 What should one take?

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:18 I don't know what works.

Speaker 2:40:18 I get Bryan's logic. It makes sense.

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:19 No, but-

Speaker 2:40:20 What less you should take?

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:20 -but I think, again, I'm going back to-

Speaker 2:40:22 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:22 ... you know, JC will agree that you have to measure, right? And that's where-

Speaker 2:40:26 But without measuring, what would you recommend?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:40:29 Vitamin D.

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:30 No, no, no. Actually-

Speaker 2:40:31 Vitamin D?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:40:31 Because the generic data set of Indian-

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:33 Yeah, it-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:40:34 Male and female

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:34 ... based on generic, I, I think most of us have this vitamin D plus K-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:40:40 K2

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:41 ... some K-

Speaker 2:40:41 K2

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:42 ... the deficiency, right? I mean, that combination, you can't go wrong at a broad level.

Speaker 2:40:46 Omega-3?

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:47 Omega-3 also for most of us, uh-

Speaker 2:40:50 Magnesium

Prashanth Prakash 2:40:50 ... I think, but again, omega-3, I feel you should measure. I think at some point we need to be able to really measure and say, "What is good?" I mean, how many units of omega-3-

Speaker 2:41:00 I have two capsules a day.

Prashanth Prakash 2:41:00 Yeah. So I don't know, why is two good enough, right? Maybe it should be one, maybe it should be five. Uh, so I think, uh-

Speaker 2:41:07 Five is too much, one is too little. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 2:41:10 [laughing] So, just... So, so we're, we're all, we're, we're, like, guesstimating, and we're taking some-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:41:16 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:41:16 ... broad. But magnesium seems to be-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:41:18 Mm

Prashanth Prakash 2:41:19 ... something that's, uh-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:41:20 Yeah, everybody agrees on magnesium.

Prashanth Prakash 2:41:21 Uh, yeah. Uh, I mean, it does help mo-most of... Because the number of, uh, I was talking about-

Speaker 2:41:27 Give us the fancy stuff, Prashanth.

Prashanth Prakash 2:41:28 Huh?

Speaker 2:41:28 I know you take some fancy stuff.

Prashanth Prakash 2:41:31 See, I, I think, um, I've found, uh, that there's enough data on, uh, lutein and zeaxanthin for your eyes.

Speaker 2:41:39 What?

Prashanth Prakash 2:41:40 Lutein-

Speaker 2:41:41 Uh

Prashanth Prakash 2:41:41 ... and zeaxanthin. We just don't get enough of it in our diets.

Speaker 2:41:45 It's for your eyes?

Prashanth Prakash 2:41:46 For your eyes, and, uh, once you're in the fortys and fifty, I think-

Speaker 2:41:50 You take it every day?

Prashanth Prakash 2:41:51 Take it every day. Uh, and there's enough, uh, um, I mean, research data on, on, on that spec- on these specific, uh, ones, unlike NM, unlike NMN and some of these other things we discussed.

Speaker 2:42:03 NMN you take every day?

Prashanth Prakash 2:42:05 No, I don't take, uh, I, I don't-

Speaker 2:42:06 NAC you take?

Prashanth Prakash 2:42:07 I take, I take, uh... See, I, I, I take creatin- I think creatine, uh, if you are exercising, uh, and, uh, again, ha- widely studied.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:42:18 Mm.

Speaker 2:42:18 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 2:42:19 Uh, enough data on creatine.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:42:20 Enough data.

Prashanth Prakash 2:42:21 And if you are fifty plus, I think it is beneficial. You should do creatine, right? So I'm telling you things that I've- [laughing] I know that there is data on, right? [chuckles] Uh, uh-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:42:31 I like Prashanth. [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 2:42:35 [laughing] Uh, there is no data on collagen.

Speaker 2:42:37 He says no supplements, everything you're saying is good. [chuckles]

Jitendra Chouksey 2:42:40 [chuckles] No, no, no. I mean, there's-

Speaker 2:42:41 No, no

Jitendra Chouksey 2:42:41 ... like, most of the longevity supplements, these are not longevity supplements.

Prashanth Prakash 2:42:44 These are not, yeah, so-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:42:45 These are generic

Prashanth Prakash 2:42:46 ... so NAC, uh, I think there is some data. I-

Speaker 2:42:50 NAC is precursor to glutathione.

Prashanth Prakash 2:42:52 Yeah, gluta- uh, glutathione. I mean, if-

Speaker 2:42:54 I take glutathione IV maybe once in a month, along with-

Prashanth Prakash 2:42:57 Yeah, but there's not enough data

Speaker 2:42:58 ... vitamins.

Prashanth Prakash 2:42:58 No, not enough data-

Speaker 2:42:58 I take something called MegaBoost

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:00 ... on just glutathione. So there is, uh, uh-

Speaker 2:43:02 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:03 ... some decent data on astaxanthin.

Speaker 2:43:06 Astra?

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:07 Asta- astaxanthin. Astaxanthin, which is for your skin, right?

Speaker 2:43:12 Okay.

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:12 It's an antioxidant, but it seems to have the-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:43:15 Sure

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:15 ... one of the enough da- uh, I mean, re-

Speaker 2:43:17 Oral, oral supplement?

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:18 I would say, I would say in a data-

Speaker 2:43:19 Oral supplement

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:20 ... for oral supplement, uh, like if, uh, creatine and some of these are, like, nine on ten-

Speaker 2:43:25 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:25 ... I would say this is, like, seven on ten in terms of data.

Speaker 2:43:27 You know, the thing with IV-

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:28 Yeah

Speaker 2:43:28 ... it feels like you're doing something. [laughing]

Jitendra Chouksey 2:43:31 [laughing]

Speaker 2:43:31 Like, popping a tablet doesn't feel enough.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:43:35 [laughing]

Speaker 2:43:35 When somebody comes, pokes a hole in you, and there's a bag-

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:38 [laughing]

Speaker 2:43:38 -you sit home and you watch drop, drop, drop.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:43:42 [chuckles]

Speaker 2:43:42 You feel like you've done something.

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:43 So, so the one funny supplement set nootropics, right? Like ashwagandha-

Speaker 2:43:46 Yeah

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:47 ... I found zero use for myself, right?

Speaker 2:43:50 Yeah.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:43:50 You're gonna get a lot of hate for this, by the way. [chuckles]

Speaker 2:43:52 Yeah.

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:53 I know, I know. Let them... I mean-

Speaker 2:43:54 Ancient remedy.

Prashanth Prakash 2:43:54 But no, I, that's what I'm saying. Ashwagandh- uh, um, and this, I go back to saying where, you know, every supplement is not for everyone, right?

Speaker 2:44:05 Prashanth-

Prashanth Prakash 2:44:05 It's not like ashwagandha, uh, I mean, just because Ma- um, Huberman says ashwagandha is good-

Speaker 2:44:10 Uh

Prashanth Prakash 2:44:10 ... doesn't mean that everybody... If, if it works for you, yeah.

Speaker 2:44:13 Not even shilajit?

Prashanth Prakash 2:44:15 No, I, I don't take shilajit.

Speaker 2:44:16 I have people who have been in this house earlier today swear by it. Practical experience. [chuckles]

Prashanth Prakash 2:44:20 No, great. I mean, if, if it works for them, that's great, right? But I've, I'm not, I'm not using shilajit, right?

Speaker 2:44:26 No.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:44:26 All shilajit studies are funded by the company that makes shilajit formulation, PrimaV.

2:44:31 ... don't they say they find it on some rock in the mountain, you know? [laughing]

2:44:35 [laughing] I mean-

2:44:35 Himalayas. [laughing]

2:44:36 All you have to ask them is, what exactly is there in Shilajit?

2:44:39 Uh, fulvic acid.

2:44:40 Yes, and what part of the HPTA axis is it, uh, helping? Is it helping your hypothalamus? Is it helping your luteinizing hormone? Is it affecting your FSH? How exactly? There's no known mechanism.

Prashanth Prakash 2:44:52 Yeah, I think in some of this, the mechanisms itself is the problem, right?

Jitendra Chouksey 2:44:56 Mm.

Prashanth Prakash 2:44:56 We don't know the mechanisms.

Seema Kamath 2:44:58 So what's with-

Prashanth Prakash 2:44:58 I think, you know-

Seema Kamath 2:44:58 the collagen?

Prashanth Prakash 2:44:59 See, collagen, the, uh, it- the there's like... I mean, most studies again have failed. Very few collagen studies have succeeded. Uh-

Jitendra Chouksey 2:45:08 I like Prashanth more and more. [laughing]

Seema Kamath 2:45:10 [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 2:45:11 Yeah, and there is, there is, uh, uh, you know, uh, it's just a very poor protein. [chuckles]

Seema Kamath 2:45:17 Mm.

Prashanth Prakash 2:45:17 If you, if you're taking it to complement your protein, will it do any harm for you? I don't think so. You can spend money on it [chuckles] and be happy.

Seema Kamath 2:45:25 [laughing]

Prashanth Prakash 2:45:25 Uh, but it's not going to do much. Right now, there's not enough data.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:45:28 See, collagen production is also gene-regulated, so you taking oral collagen is not going to be the same as taking-

Prashanth Prakash 2:45:34 Yeah, because it's getting m- in your gut, it's getting anyway.

Jitendra Chouksey 2:45:37 Yeah, because you taking creatine... Now, creatine has a specific creatine-specific receptors that help creatine, you know, go through the,