Nikhil KamathEp #7 | Who is Kiran Mazumdar Shaw Really? And WTF is Biotech?
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
95 min read · 19,289 words- 0:00 – 0:54
Intro
- NKNikhil Kamath
what does money really mean?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Wealth has been about value creation. I didn't have any money either. You've got to have hunger in your belly, and you've got to have an idea which you think is exciting. When I finally decided to start Biocon, it was foolish courage, and I was high risk in the eyes of everyone. I mean, I suddenly was launched into fame as India's richest woman.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Which is self-made woman-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Right
- NKNikhil Kamath
... which is even b- better and bigger in my opinion.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Absolutely.
- NKNikhil Kamath
You still are as passionate talking about work today as you were at any other point, and what is that, that keeps you going? [upbeat music] Hi, Kiran. Uh, thank you for doing this, and I know you've been on a trip recently, and you just got back. Uh, would you like to tell us a little bit about where you went and what you did?
- 0:54 – 2:20
Did you know Kiran was a football fan?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Well, first and foremost, Nikhil, thanks for having me on this, uh, show. It's always going to be exciting talking to you about entrepreneurship. Well, I just came back from Istanbul, uh, where I actually went to see the Champions League finals, which was, um, exciting, but I think predictable.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
You know, Man- Man City won.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm. Are you a football fan?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I do enjoy football-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... and I have been watching football over the years.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
My late husband, John, was a-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... great football aficionado, and he got me kind of interested in the game, and it is a wonderful game, right? Um, but anyway, I, I also combined it with a little bit of business because Turkey is a big market for me.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I didn't feel that guilty-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right [chuckles]
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... just going to spoil myself with a match, so.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But anyway-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... I'm looking forward to our conversation.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. So for, uh, people watching, me and Kiran are really close friends who kind of hang out a lot. Uh, so this is a little bit different because we have a camera, but we hang out here, like [chuckles] -
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And it's great to hang out with young friends like Nikhil.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, and we have all the same friends, and we do dinners and, uh, Sunday lunches, and, uh, I think we know each other very well. But this conversation, I thought,
- 2:20 – 4:35
Humble beginnings and the way of life
- NKNikhil Kamath
would be interesting because we can really get into the backstory of how you grew up, where you grew up. Uh, how did you become Kiran Mazumdar-Shaw from Kiran, who began in Bangalore many, many years ago? So if I could ask you, uh, to throw some light on the very beginning, uh, growing up, school, parents. Uh, maybe we can start there.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Okay. Well, I'm- I was born in Bangalore, and, uh, I grew up... I did my schooling at Bishop Cotton Girls' School. I then went to Mount Carmel College for my, uh, pre-university. Um, I joined, uh, Central College at Bangalore University for my bachelor's degree in Zoology Honors.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Were you born in Ba- Bangalore?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I was, yes.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Uh, in Bowring Hospital.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Um, well, you know, the thing is, I actually, um, took very different, uh, course, you know, sort of, uh, turns in my life because of things that didn't quite go the way I wanted to.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So for instance, um, after finishing my pre-university, I wanted to actually get into medical school.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And I applied to St. John's and Vellore. Um, I didn't get into either of them, and when that plan didn't work, then plan B was to do a bachelor's degree, uh, and then re- make another attempt to get into medical, uh, college, but that never really happened in the end. And then, of course, after I finished my, um, bachelor's degree, and I- by the way, I did top the university. I got the gold medal. Um, and, um, I was kind of, uh, thinking about, should I do a PhD?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Because I had got an admission in London University for genetics, or should I pursue something with applied science?
- 4:35 – 7:24
How Kiran became a brewmaster
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And so I sort of had a chat with my late father, and I said, "Look, I would like to sort of think about doing something with applied science, and what do you think I should do?" My father used to be the managing director and head brewmaster of United Breweries in Bangalore.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
He was, in fact, the original maker of Kingfisher beer.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Wow!
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And he even christened it Kingfisher, so he... You know, there's a legacy behind-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... the brand. So when I, when I asked him for that sort of suggestion, he said to me, "Hey, why don't you do brewing like I did?"
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I said, "Are you nuts?"
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I said, "I'm a woman. How will I do brewing?" He said, "No..." He said, "Don't think of brewing as a male profession."
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
"I think brewing is the oldest biotechnology known to man, and if you're interested in biotechnology, um, I think brewing is very exciting." And he said, "You're so interested in microbiology, you're so interested in, in, in genetics and fermentation science, and I think it could be very exciting for you." Um, he said, so he said, "Why don't you go and do this brewing, uh, masters in brewing in Australia? Because I do send, uh, you know, a couple of brewers every year to this program at Ballarat University. So why don't you go and do it? I'm sure if I propose you, they'll accept you as a student." So-... he kind of convinced me, and I, I don't know what got into me, but I thought, "Okay, let me try this."
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Um, and so I finally got admitted, and I hopped on a plane and went to Australia.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And then I found, of course, I was the only woman in the class, because, m- you know, brewing is a male bastion. And of course, I had international colleagues on that- in that class, but I was the only woman. And then I got stuck into l- understanding brewing science, and it was quite exciting.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Does brewing involve a lot of drinking beer as well?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Tasting beer, not drinking beer. [laughs]
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughs]
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Because that's what they'll make you taste.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
They make you taste fermentation of flavors. Yeah, so-
- NKNikhil Kamath
So Kiran is really into wine, and we often catch up and try different wines, mostly in her house.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yeah, yeah. So I'm, I'm also a, a great, uh, you know, wine buff. But beer is also something I understand very well because, um, you know, a good beer tastes a certain way.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And when you have off flavors caused by bad fermentations, which a normal beer drinker doesn't really bother about-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... as a, as a brewer, as a professional taster-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- 7:24 – 8:30
Kiran's favourite beers as a pro taster
- NKNikhil Kamath
If you had to grade the beers available in India now, which, which two would be your favorite?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I definitely think Kingfisher is a good beer.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Not because my-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... father created Kingfisher, but I really think it's a good beer.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm, mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But out of the foreign brands, I really like Heineken. I think Heineken is a very good beer.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
It's a very clean beer. I like... I know what the recipe is-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... and I think it's a great, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
You're also on the board of Heineken.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yes, and I, I think-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... it's a very good beer.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What happened first? Did you get on the board before you started liking Heineken, or did you like Heineken and then you got on the board?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
No, no, I basically, um, liked Heineken for a very long time.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
In fact, I like the Dutch and Danish beers.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I like, uh, Carlsberg.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I like Tuborg.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I like Heineken.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Um, I guess, um... you know, I was on the board of United Breweries-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... and, you know, Heineken took over-
- 8:30 – 11:40
Kiran's take on friend Vijay Mallya
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Breweries.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. Anything you would like-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But-
- NKNikhil Kamath
... to say about, uh, Vijay Mallya, just because?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Well, he's a very dear old friend, and I think, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Everybody says nice things about him who has been a friend to him.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yeah. He is a very nice guy, very smart guy. Uh, he really built the Kingfisher brand and made it into a global brand. Well, he made a big blunder starting Kingfisher Airlines.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Uh, and I think his biggest blunder was to, you know, be in a hurry to go international.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And when he bought over Deccan Airways, I think that's was the start of his downfall, 'cause I think, uh, it was a big price to pay-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... uh, for an airlines in those days, where the business was just beginning to take off. And you know that everyone who used Kingfisher Airlines-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm, mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... swore by the service.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Uh, I think he did a decent job, but I think financially it wasn't viable. Um, the beer business was booming. I think if he had stuck to beer, he would-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... still be a very successful businessman.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But I guess he is the kind of s- entrepreneur or serial entrepreneur who wants to do different things.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What makes him so likable? Why do all his friends... Like, I know many of his friends. I don't know him, but every time a conversation about Vijay Mallya comes about, they all talk about him like a friend's friend.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
No, and he was a very generous, and he is a very generous man. You know, he loves, uh, his friends. He, he's very generous with his friends, and he did live his life king size.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
You know what I mean? He enjoyed, uh, you know-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... having very, very, uh, extravagant parties. He was the man who brought in a lot of concerts into Bangalore. Uh, he m- you know, he really livened up this, uh, this city, this country.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Um, of course, he was the quintessential billionaire in terms-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- 11:40 – 14:15
Lessons to learn from Vijay Mally’s story
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
so, I think so.
- NKNikhil Kamath
If we were to kind of, like, learn something from Vijay Mallya's story, and if the entrepreneurs watching have to take a lesson from that book, what do you think people should not do that he did?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
That's a very good question, Nikhil, and in my view, I think it's about not being in denial and to recognize failure when you start seeing warning signs. I think all of us, uh, procrastinate the decision to pull the plug.... and I think that's what happened to Vijay. I remember having a chat with Vijay. You know, Vijay and I grew up, by the way. His father was the chairman of United Breweries, and so we were next-door neighbors. He always considers me his elder sister, and, uh, you know, we grew up as kids, and I know him extremely well. And I remember during the days, uh, of, um, uh, trying to cope with the Kingfisher Airlines crisis, I kept telling him, I said, "Vijay, downsize. You know, cut your losses. You don't have to make this into a huge international airlines. Uh, and I think, you know, if you just downsize your airlines and, and, and, uh, focus on the Indian market for the time being and, and make sure that you, [lips smack] uh, you know, cut your losses, I'm sure it will, it will do you a lot of good." Um, but he kept saying, "No, I think I know what I'm doing. I think I can overcome this. I know that I'll be able to, uh, you know, pay this back, and I know I can raise debt and, and, and revive this whole business." Um, so I think he was in denial. I think, um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is that ego?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
It's not ego, but it's about not giving up. You know, it's... I- in a way, it's a bit of a... It's, it's about a, a, a, a, a sort of a, uh, an attitude of saying, "I can't fail."
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Right? It's not ego.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Because the public perception of him became larger than himself?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I don't think that was the way he looked at it. He just was so passionate about that airlines, that he wanted it to succeed at all costs.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And trying to make it succeed at all costs was just not a viable option, and that's what really failed him. So I think he kept mounting those losses. He kept sort of not being able to repay the debt in time, and, uh, there came a point where he just had to realize that he was heading towards bankruptcy.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay.
- 14:15 – 16:40
Kiran’s challenges as a female brewmaster
- NKNikhil Kamath
So going back to your story up until brewmaster we get, what era was this? What year?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Oh, I went to Australia in 1974.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Wow!
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I celebrated my 21st birthday-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... in Australia, and then I came back a couple of years later.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So end of '75, early '76, I came back, and that was the time when, um, I was trying to get a job as a brewmaster, thinking that, you know, "I've, I've done so well. I've topped my class in Australia, and hopefully pe- you know, people will really pursue me and give me a great job." But that was not to be. I was in for a rude shock, because whilst breweries were very willing to help me... uh, to ask me to come and help them fix their problems, do troubleshooting, which I did, I even commissioned a, a brewery in Calcutta, but when it came to giving me an, a job, I think no one wanted to risk that. They all said to me that, "This is a big risk. We've nev- we don't even have a single woman in our leadership team, uh, and we certainly don't think the brewmaster s- in charge of this brewery should be a woman, because we have hostile labor unions. We don't think you can deal with them, [lips smack] and we think it's, it, it, it just wouldn't be the right thing to do." So that's when I realized that this country wasn't ready for a woman brewmaster, and it was very disillusioning for me. You know, I was very disappointed.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Was Australia different, though? Because you said you were the only person there.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Well, Australia was d- was no different in terms of, uh, the number of women in brewing, but I think getting a job in Australia would have been easier. And so I was really disappointed and dejected, and my late father said to me, "I think they're making a mistake," but, you know, e- even he couldn't help me. So that was the time when I started looking for jobs outside India, and I actually managed to get a job offer from Scotland.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Okay? That was in, um, 1978. So for two years, I toiled and struggled to get a job in India, but I couldn't.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is that where you met John?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
No, not at all. I met John many, many years later. But,
- 16:40 – 20:20
Irish encounter: Serendipity in Kiran's entrepreneurial tale
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
um, you know, I got this job in Scotland, but I never went to Scotland, by the way-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... because I had an accidental encounter with a biotech entrepreneur from Ireland-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... who actually came to India, uh, to track me down, to see if I could help him start a company in India. And he had heard about me from my Australian days. So he basically tracked me down on the day I was catching a Rajdhani Express from Baroda to Delhi, uh, onward to Scotland. I was supposed to spend a short time in, in Delhi, uh, to basically develop some, uh, malting technology for a company that was associated, uh, with the person who was hiring me. So I was supposed to spend three weeks, uh, and then move on to Scotland. But the, uh, Irish entrepreneur, who was also, by the way, Scottish, uh, in origin, uh, Les Auchincloss, uh, was a, was also a, a brewer in his former avatar, but he had started a biotech company in Ireland, developing enzyme technologies. And he wanted to actually develop a company in India, 'cause he was interested in two aspects of enzyme technologies. One was, uh, producing papain, which was a plant enzyme derived from papaya, and the second was to develop solid state fermentation enzymes.... which were very important for many, many enzyme applications around the world. So he heard about me in Australia, tracked me down, tracked me down in Baroda, and the day I was about to catch the train in the evening, well, in the morning I get this call at eight o'clock saying, "You know, I'm Les Auchincloss. Uh, I'm- I've tracked you down in Baroda. Can we meet?"
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And I said, "Okay, we better meet right now in the next few hours, because I'm leaving for Delhi by the evening, uh, train." So I met him at about, I think, 10:30 in the morning, [lips smack] spent a couple of hours. Uh, I think I... You know, we spilt it over into lunch, and then I came back, picked up my bags, and went to the train. Um, and his whole approach was, "Look, I wanna do this, and I've heard a lot about you." And my first response to him was, [lips smack] "Look, I don't think I'm the right partner for you. Uh, first and foremost, this is not a country that is welcoming of women in business. I've just been told that I'm not welcome to the brewing world, and so I don't think I'll be welcome to the business world either. Secondly, I don't have any money to my name. Um, thirdly, I have no business experience, um, and most of all, I'm a woman, so I don't think I'm the right partner for you."
- NKNikhil Kamath
This is in the '70s?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
'78. Uh, this was, um, I remember it was, uh, in March 1978.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Were there any women prominent in business back then?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
[lips smack] Not really. There was Rati Murarji, who used to run the shipping business.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But apart from her, I couldn't think of any other woman running a big business. So it was a very different time, and, uh, you know,
- 20:20 – 23:40
The untold story: What held Kiran back from entrepreneurship
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
he wouldn't- uh, my- this Irish entrepreneur wouldn't take no for an answer. He said- I said, "Look, it's good that..." Uh, he said, "I'm also coming to Delhi. Let's talk again." I said, "In fact, let me introduce you to somebody who will make you a very good partner, because I'm gonna work with this person who runs a malting company. I'm actually helping him with setting up some new technologies, and I think he would be the right guy, because he's got money, he's got business experience, and he runs a very successful business, so investing in the business would also be something up his sleeve." So he said, "Okay, let's meet." So I went to Delhi, and I met this gentleman, um, Mr. Puran Chand Jain, his name was. And I said, "Why don't, uh, I introduce you to this Irish entrepreneur?" He was very excited. So we actually met for dinner. I introduced these two gentlemen. I said, "Why don't you form this company?" And so they had a great discussion, and the, the, the Indian gentleman was very excited. He said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we can easily do it," and they were having a bit of a chat. Then the next day- uh, so as we were finishing dinner, he said, "Look, can I invite you for dinner tomorrow night?" Um, I said, "Sure." Um, so he invited me for dinner the next evening, I remember, at the Imperial Hotel.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And, um, he said, "Look, I've met your friend, and thank you for introducing me to him, but really, I think you are the kind of person I'm looking for. I need someone young and entrepreneurial, someone who's driven by new science, not, not, uh, your friend who is only interested in, in making money and, and getting technology and helping me in that way, because I really don't see him, uh, investing in new technol- or developing new technologies. And you are anyway going to help him with developing a new technology-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... so I think I'm looking for a different kind of entrepreneur. And why are you so diffident?"
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I said, "No, I'm diffident because I don't- I've never run a business, and I've never... I, I, I think you need to invest in a business, and I don't have money." So he said, "Look, l- let me tell you that I didn't have any money either. You've got to have hunger in your belly, and you've got to have an idea which you think is exciting, and that's what entrepreneurship is about." So he said, "I think you're not giving yourself a fair chance, so why don't you really look at this joint venture and, and start, and if you don't like it after a year, okay, I will promise you to find you a job." Okay, so with that kind of assurance, I thought, "I have nothing to lose."
- NKNikhil Kamath
What did your parents think and all that?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So my father and... Uh, my father said, "Go for it. I mean, you know, why? I mean, I think if he's so insist- I mean, if he's so, uh, you know, supportive of this particular joint venture, and if he's giving you this assurance that he'll find you a job if it doesn't work, then why don't you give it a shot?" So instead of going to Scotland, I went to Ireland. [lips smack] I actually
- 23:40 – 25:35
Enzyme technology - A deep dive
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
learnt, you know, all about enzyme technologies. I actually developed a couple of those technologies, uh, you know, with the team there-
- NKNikhil Kamath
What, what are enzymes, basically? Just-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So enzymes, uh, interestingly, are, um, what we call as organic catalysts. They're proteins.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Our whole... You know, any living system, uh, functions because of enzymes. Today, we wouldn't be living without enzymes. Enzymes basically, uh, catalyze every single process in your body, whether it is to make protein-
- NKNikhil Kamath
What, what do you, what do you mean when you say catalyze?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So for instance, you- when you take starch in your body, you need to break it down into glucose, because starch is made of glucose. So to make... And it's glucose that gives you the energy-... right? To run your various, uh, metabolic functions. So it is amylases, enzymes that break down starch into glucose, that allows this to happen. So I'm just giving you that-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... as an example.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
You need, um, enzymes that can break down fats into fatty acids. You need, uh, enzymes that break down proteins into amino acids and peptides, and that's how your whole body works.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Um, so every part of your metabolic functioning-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... is because of enzymatic activities. That's why even when they look at your heart function, they look at heart enzymes.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Right? The troponin-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... well, how much is it?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So every part of a living system works because of enzymes.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So, um, when you look at biotech and look at fermentation science, again, fermentation is all enzymatic.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Without enzymes, you cannot get alcohol, you cannot get, uh, glucose,
- 25:35 – 27:00
Ways to make enzymes
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
you cannot... And glucose is fermented into-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... the al- e- ethanol.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And these enzymes are also made in a lab?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yeah. So the way you make enzymes is in a fermenter.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So what you do is, it's nothing but a protein, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So you basically need to figure out what that protein is. So you make enzymes in two ways. One is to use natural enzyme producers, like, say, uh, in, in... You know, you- as I said, there's a plant enzyme called papain.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
You can take- extract it from papaya. There are microbial enzymes that you can get bacteria, yeast, or fungi to produce. And then later on, what I did was I started making recombinant, uh, DNA-based enzymes. So there, what you do is you basically take a microbe, like a bacteria, or in our case, I, I started using a yeast, and you look at its DNA, and then you basically insert a gene sequence that codes for a certain type of an enzyme. And so it's like a barcode. So once you, you know, modify that organism, the organism starts producing that enzyme, which is secreted into the medium, and then you extract it. So those are the kind of technologies we developed for enzyme technologies. And it was very exciting because, um, uh, you know,
- 27:00 – 30:14
Greening effluents: A revolutionary treatment approach
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
it was an idea ahead of its time.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Uh, we started developing a large number of technologies for, [lips smack] um, effluent treatment. So you, if you wanted to break down certain, you know, effluents, you could use enzymes to break it down.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What, what is an effluent?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
An effluent, whatever the waste you produce in a, in a factory.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Organic waste-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... that you produce. It could be anything.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
You can actually use enzymes to break down that effluent. And that's what they-
- NKNikhil Kamath
And you started this in Ireland with the-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
No, no, I started it in India-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... but with the Irish company.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I also started developing enzyme technologies for the paper and pulp industry, which is another very polluting industry.
- NKNikhil Kamath
But you went to Ireland for a while?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I went to Ireland for six months-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... to basically learn these technologies. I understood the technology, but I just wanted to know how they were produced and how I-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Did your learning from being a brewmaster-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Absolutely helped.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And then I came back to India with that knowledge to actually set it up here.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I think, you know, we developed, uh... You know, the whole purpose was to replace chemical technologies with enzyme technology. So it was a greening of processes. Today, chemicals pollute, but if you use bio-transformation or biocatalysis, you can replace those chemical processes with enzyme technologies, which are very, very eco-friendly and, and, and non-polluting, and biodegradable. That's what I was trying to do in those years.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
You know, it was an idea ahead of-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- 30:14 – 34:29
Biocon: Garage days and a brave banker who bet on Kiran
- NKNikhil Kamath
how old were you then, in '79?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I was 25 when I started Biocon.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So that was another phase of my life, where when I finally decided to start Biocon, um, sometimes when I look back on it, it was foolish courage-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... because it was a very tough, uh, path to go down.... uh, I was 25 years old. I was a young woman. I had no business experience. I had 10,000 rupees in my bank, right? And I was trying to start a strange business called biotech, which nobody understood. And I was high risk in the eyes of everyone that I had to deal with-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... starting with bankers.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Bankers didn't want to touch me.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I mean, I just wanted a credit line and a, and, and a... You know, those days there was no venture funding. It was debt financing. I wanted us- a loan, and I wanted a credit line. I found it impossible because of all the reasons I just mentioned. [lips smack] Um, very often they would come and say, um, "Your guarantee will not suffice. Your father will have to give a guarantee." I said, "My father has nothing to do with my business, so I- on principle, I don't think he should give you a guarantee. And if, if you accepted a guarantee from a y- a male entrepreneur, why not from me?" So, you know, those were the days when there was such a strong gender bias. [lips smack] Then came hiring people.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
People didn't want to work for a woman. I found it very difficult to hire people. So my first two employees were retired tractor mechanics who needed a job desperately. It didn't matter to them whether it was a man or a woman hiring them. Um, of course, a f- a, a few years later, I was very lucky that I was able to get the brightest minds to join me, and I therefore consider myself really the first startup in the country.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What changed? How did you manage to get these people?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So when I started the company, you know, brick by brick, and you can- I actually started in my garage.
- NKNikhil Kamath
In a shed, right?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yes. I started in a shed. I started very frugally.
- NKNikhil Kamath
How much did the Irish guy invest? Like, what was the funding in the company?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So the Irish guy basically had given me a buyback guarantee for the products I make.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Um, he hadn't really invested much, um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... uh, he, a- and I was too proud. I wanted to build it myself. So I said, "Okay." Uh, he gave me a kind of a, a, a, a guaranteed buyback, and he gave me an advance payment for buying those enzymes when I make them.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So he gave me a check... I mean, I had 10,000 rupees in the bank, but he gave me a draft for, uh, 10,000 pounds.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Wow.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Okay, those days.
- NKNikhil Kamath
'78.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
In '78-
- 34:29 – 38:38
Building a dream team: How Kiran attracted top talent
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Um, and then, um, basically, um, I started interacting with students at IIT, okay?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And these students would then reach out to me, biochemical engineering, saying, "Hey, we are looking for enzymes, and can you give us some enzymes to, you know, uh, do some experiments?" And that's how I started talking to these students. And interestingly, of course, um, when they came to me seeking advice on which, uh, university they should, uh, join, I said, "Hey, why don't you join me?" And they got quite excited, and they joined me. Uh, then there was a, uh... You know, I was featured in Businessworld and on India Today, I think the first cover they had of women entrepreneurs, and there was me, and there was Shahnaz Husain, and there was some other woman-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... I've forgotten who it was. But three of us were featured on the cover of India Today.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Was that a big deal back then, being on the cover of a magazine?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Of course, it was, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And, um, I was there, and someone read this cover story, and-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... quite a few people reached out to me saying, "Hey, we'd love to know what you're doing."
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is this pre-news channels? Like, back then-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Oh, yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... it was only print media?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
It was all print media. So this was in the early-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... '80s.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And that was when I started getting young professionals-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... young, uh, you know, engineers from IIT, all reaching out to me saying, "We'd love to know more." And some of them, when I started talking, I was like: "Would you, would you join me?"
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And they all said: "Yeah, why not?" And so we formed this core group-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... with young, in, you know, well-educated engineers and, and folk like that. So my first team was, um, a guy called Srikumar, uh, Suryanarayan, who headed my R&D, and he was, uh- he did his master's in MTech, uh, Biochemical Engineering from IIT Delhi, and he had done his, uh, BTech from IIT Madras. My second colleague was Ajay Bharadwaj, who had done his, uh, uh-... MTech. Uh, no, he had done his BTech from IIT Delhi, and his MTech in biochemical engineering from University of, uh, Louisiana in Baton Rouge in the US, and had come back. My third colleague was, um, uh, my CFO, Murali Krishnan, who had actually- he had joined me from a chartered accountancy firm. And my fourth colleague, who joined me a few years later, was, uh, a PhD from MIT, Arun Chandavarkar. And Arun was v- it's a very interesting story. He had... You know, he was doing his PhD at MIT. He had been, uh- he was- he had heard about me, so he came to India, interviewed with me, got very e- and we showed him around, and he got very excited with what I was doing, and he said, "Hey, you can count on me. I- when I return, I want to join you." He was supposed to finish in a year's time. So I said, "Great!" And that evening, I met some folks at Hindustan Lever, and his father used to work at Lever. So I mentioned to the senior people, I said, "Hey, you know, I just met this very interesting guy, guy from MIT, and he's going to join me." And I was told, "Forget about that, because he's going to join the Hindustan Lever Research Centre, because, um, his father works at Lever, and we made him a great offer." I said, "What offer have you made him?" And he said, uh, they, they made him an offer of some 10,000 rupees.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And we had made him an offer of 4,500 rupees, which was much higher than what we were paying ourselves. We were paying ourselves 3,000 rupees, and because he was MIT, we said, "Let's pay him more than us." The three of us said, "Let's do that."
- NKNikhil Kamath
Who were the three of us? Who do you-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
The other ones, right? Srikumar, uh,
- 38:38 – 40:45
Empowering over 100 entrepreneurs
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Murali, and Ajay.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Are they still around?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Srikumar actually has, uh, started his own company, which is a very cool company.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
He's started a company called C6 Energy.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Uh, they're trying to make, uh, fuel, uh, biofuels out of seaweed.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Wow!
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Very successful company.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Wow. Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
He's also doing quite a interesting job. Ajay Bharadwaj runs a very successful, uh, uh, you know, research services, and, I mean, it's a contract manufacturing-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... and research company called Anthem, uh, Pharmaceuticals.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And he's also, I think, got a billion-dollar valuation.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And then, of course, uh, Murali continues to consult in the fa- in the financial world, and he, he, he provides financial services.
- NKNikhil Kamath
How do you learn to take pride and be happy about people who you started with, moving on and doing great new things?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
You know, I've always been of the view that if you want a country like India to grow and to develop as a global economy, it will only happen through entrepreneurship. And I think you need to breed entrepreneurs, and I think we all owe it to ourselves to ensure that we play a key role in, in, uh, creating more entrepreneurs.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I am very happy that, you know, the Biocon group-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... if I count now-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... I think I've created 100 entrepreneurs from our organization-
- NKNikhil Kamath
How long have you been?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Which makes me very, very proud.
- NKNikhil Kamath
From '78 to now?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay, that's almost 40, change, years.
- 40:45 – 42:40
Golden entrepreneurial insight
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
be on the board.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So you, early '80s, you started getting cool people who came in, partly due to the press and the cover and all of those things, and also because you were building really interesting stuff. What happened after that?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So, you know, once you start building a company and it starts getting known, and it's doing something very, very novel and differentiated, you start attracting a lot of people. And obviously, um, you know, the, the, the biotech, uh, world, uh, needed people from biosciences and from engineering, and I managed to attract a lot of those very, very good people earlier on. You know, one message I have for all entrepreneurs is, focus on getting good people and the right leadership team to share your journey. Because very often I find, uh, entrepreneurs, uh, want to play a very authoritarian role in driving their businesses. That's never been my style. I've always believed that you've got to have a good team, and you have to delegate your responsibilities and share your responsibilities amongst that leadership team, to grow fast and to make sure that you have the bandwidth to, to grow and, and, and, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Also, would you say share equity and-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Absolutely. I mean, I personally, I've always shared equity, but, uh, what I've made sure is that an owner, founder-owner always has the highest vested interest in the growth and the future of a company, um, like yourself. So whilst you share equity, I think you must continue to see whether you can hold the maximum equity share in your company as long as you can, to make sure you drive it in the direction that you think it ought to be driven into.
- 42:40 – 44:40
What Kiran might have done differently
- NKNikhil Kamath
If you wish you could do one thing differently with these five people that you spoke about, in the o- in your own journey of Biocon, is there anything that comes to mind?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... you know, I think when I, when I look at the way we grew Biocon, I don't think I would have done anything differently. Because remember, we were a pioneering company. We had to find of, uh, we had to create the path. We had to, um, learn along the way. We made many mistakes, but I think those mistakes allowed us to learn fast and allowed us to shape our knowledge, and allowed us to basically grow much faster. So I think I don't think I would have done anything differently. Um, sure, I think, um, uh, when I look at today's world compared to yesteryears, um, you know, the whole focus on professional experience is very important. So maybe- I mean, today we get our people to go and attend many of these executive programs. We had to kind of bootstrap ourselves and learn ourselves. Um, and if there's one thing I would like to do is, uh, differently, would be that if I had gone to a proper executive program at a leading business school, maybe I would think differently, maybe I would have done things, um, a little bit more, um, strategically in some ways.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Can you elaborate, for example?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Um, you know, s- some of the decisions that I took were, I feel in retrospect, impulsive or opportunistic. I don't know whether business school would treat you to do any things differently, but maybe, um, you know, it was when I married John-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... that John brought in a lot of professionalism into my thinking.
- NKNikhil Kamath
When was that? What year?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
In 1998.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. What happened
- 44:40 – 48:10
1998: IP, Unilever, global benchmarks - The turning point
- NKNikhil Kamath
to Biocon between the early years in '80s to '98? It scaled significantly?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So basically, we scaled quite a lot, and, and my Irish entrepreneurs actually sold out to Unilever-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... 10 years into my partnership. And that, to me, was another very, very exciting inflection point. Because having Unilever as my partners, even though they were minor partners, you know, launched me into a very new orbit of professionalism and global benchmarks. You know, everything that they did at Unilever was, you know, of, of world-class global standards, and they wanted every company in that group to follow those benchmarks. So that was very, very good for me because I, uh, quickly sort of transformed the business from a very amateurish entrepreneurial company to a very professional company, where I had to sort of learn the Unilever way of doing things. You know, whether it was, um, um, financial reporting, whether it was good manufacturing practices, whether it was, um, uh, you know, compliance and regulatory, uh, aspects, and then most of all, it was about IP. You know, as a big company, they focused a lot on IP, which I hadn't really understood as a, as an entrepreneurial company. They were the ones who basically made me realize that, "You're doing something so innovative, make sure that you cover the IP." That's what taught me about intellectual property. So I think I, I was fortunate to professionalize and learn a lot of things because of Unilever, and I dealt with Unilever in- as a very entrepreneurial, uh, you know, founder of a company. In the long run, I think it did help me, because I think they couldn't quite fathom me. And so when I married John, uh, I was able to basically buy back the business from them, because they almost found it difficult to deal with a, uh, a partner who had a major interest in the company and wasn't willing to bend to their needs, if you know what I mean.
- NKNikhil Kamath
You think you were-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So when they sold the company to ICI, and they expected me to just go with that decision, I didn't. I said, "Sorry, I don't want to now be handed over to yet another multinational."
- NKNikhil Kamath
When was that? What year?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
1998, the same year that John and I got married.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And so I went to John and I said, "John, I think this is a great opportunity because I found that in my contract, my original partnership contract with, uh, with Biocon, uh, there is a clause of- that says... There's a preemptive clause that says that they cannot sell their shares without offering it to me first."
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
"So let us exercise that preemptive right and see if we can buy out Unilever."
- NKNikhil Kamath
What was the value of the company in '98?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Well, it was very funny because Unilever, at that time, owned 30% of Biocon.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Okay? Now, um, all that we paid Unilever was $2 million for that 30%. I didn't even have $2 million to buy them out. It was, it was a huge amount of money in 1998.
- NKNikhil Kamath
In '98, yeah.
- 48:10 – 50:50
How John charmed Kiran
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Um, John always used to joke that John and I had just got married, and John sold his life savings that he had put into a, a, a townhouse in Chelsea, in London. He sold that townhouse and, m- you know, borrowed something against that, uh, money that he made, and he somehow, you know, um, rustled up that $2 million, and we bought out Unilever. And then, of course, John, um... You know, we had to do a back-to-back deal because that was everything we owned, right? And John always used to joke, saying, "I always thought I'd get a dowry- "
- NKNikhil Kamath
[chuckles]
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
" ... but, uh, Kiran cleaned me out, but that was the best investment I ever made."
- NKNikhil Kamath
... uh, how did you meet John Kerr?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Well, John came to Bangalore as the chairman and managing director of Madura Coats.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And that was based in Bangalore. 1991 is when he came. And of course, since both of us were single and we both were playing golf and-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Were you single up until John?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yes.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Like, did you date during the very early years of Biocon, 1975 to '90?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yeah, a little bit here and there.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But, uh, basically-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Bangalore?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yeah. But basically, um, uh, it was really John that-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... I was serious about.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
And why were you serious about John?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Because I think both of- I suddenly realized that John had a certain, uh, maturity-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... that I was looking for.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And he, of course, was, uh, someone who had worked with Coats for a long time. He had, he had traveled the world. He had headed or, or been part of the Coats business in many, many parts of the world. So he was a well-traveled man with a lot of maturity, and I was trying to understand a big, uh, you know, conglomerate like Unilever. So I asked John... I used to ask John for a lot of advice, saying: "How do I deal with Unilever?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
You know, they're co- constantly demanding that they should take ownership of this company, but I don't want them to take ownership. How do I deal with it?" And John would kind of give me advice as to how I should position myself.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I've spent some time with John, and what I find really interesting is, you would always tell me that this man has no insecurity. He's so comfortable in his own skin that, uh- because you were always, like, this protagonist of the story who everybody associated with Biocon, but he never wanted any attention, and he was never insecure of it.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yeah, so I think that was his greatness.
- 50:50 – 53:12
AIG's incredible bet: How they got the best ROI!
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I think, um, let me be very honest, that when John and I dis- so finally I got... You know, John helped me to buy b- buy the shares out of Unilever, [lips smack] and that was in 1998. In- by, by the year 2000, we had basically done a back-to-back deal with ICICI. Uh, actually it was called TDICI those days.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And TDICI- oh, sorry, no, it was ICICI Ventures, uh, that basically bought out, um, 10% of that stock. So we, you know, we had bought 30%, and we managed to sell 10% for $2 million-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... to Unilever.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So that is how much it appreciated in one and a half years.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. Super deal then, arbitrage.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yeah, arbitrage.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And we had therefore ICICI Ventures invested in the company-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... right up to 2003.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
In two thou- by 2003, the company was valued at, um, uh, you know, at, when, when, when, uh, when, uh, ICICI Ventures invested $2 million, it was worth about 100 crores.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
By 2020- uh, by 2003, um, AIG actually acquired the 10% stake that, um, um, ICICI Ventures had, uh, at a valuation of 400 crores, which, which, uh, ICICI thought was a great price.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But a year later, the business, uh, the bus- I mean, the, the company was valued at a billion dollars, so you can see how much money AIG made.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
In fact, AIG keeps telling me that was the best investment they've ever made to date-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... because the appreciation they got-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... in the Biocon IPO was something they've never seen before.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What was the product that was killing it at Biocon, which was gi- bringing in all this revenue?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So we were making enzymes those days-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
So throughout, it has been enzymes.
- 53:12 – 57:20
Conquering global markets: How Biocon became the largest producer of statins
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
2000.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Then in 2000, I decided to pivot to biopharmaceuticals.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So that's why I wanted to go for an IPO, because biopharmaceuticals was a very different business to enzymes.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And why did you recognize the need to pivot?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Because I felt that enzymes was only going to get me to a certain size and no more, and I needed to get to a much higher size, and that much higher scale and size would only come through biopharmaceuticals. So what I did was I leveraged the enzyme technologies to biopharmaceuticals. So I think that's another, uh, thing I've learnt as an entrepreneur, which John always credited me for, is to say that you should be agnostic, uh, to what a technology is producing, but to see whether that technology can do something else. And so even though I had developed enzyme technologies based on biotechnology, you have to be agnostic to what those platform technologies can do. "So why are you only making enzymes? Can't you do something else?" And that something else was biopharmaceuticals. So I started making s- uh, statins from fungal fermentation technologies.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. Can you give us, like, very briefly, what is biopharmaceutical and what is a statin?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So, uh, a biopharmaceutical is a, is a pharmaceutical produced from any kind of life science origin. So normally, when you make a pharmaceutical product, it's all a chemical process. You use chemicals, you synthesize the chemicals, and you make the molecule. In biopharmaceuticals, you actually use living organisms to produce the molecule, and you extract it out.... so it's like an, it's like a, it's like a, a biological product, so that's why it's called a biopharmaceutical. So the first statin I made was called lovastatin, which was made from a, a, a fungal fermentation process. So you use fungi-- So we used to use fungi to make enzymes, and then I found that you could actually use certain fungi to make lovastatin-
- NKNikhil Kamath
And what is that?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
- a precursor of lovastatin.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And what does statin do?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
It's a cholesterol-reducing drug.
- NKNikhil Kamath
This is what people have when they're getting a heart attack.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yeah. So today everyone is really put on a statin-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... to prevent a heart attack.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So lovastatin was the basic statin from which you, of course, later on you had many, many kinds of statins: simvastatin, rosuvastatin, atorvastatin. So there are many, many classes of statins.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But I started with lovastatin, which is a fungal fermentation. In fact, today Biocon is the largest statin producer in the world because of the knowledge we've acquired over time. So we started with the simple fungal fermentation-based lovastatin. Then lovastatin was the starting raw material for simvastatin, so we again became very big in simvastatin. Then there was another fermentation-based statin called pravastatin, so we became big in that. And then you had two more synthetically derived statins, which had a very similar process to the other statins, but they didn't involve fermentation, called atorvastatin, rosuvastatin. So today we are the largest producer of the statin APIs around the world. We have a 50% market share of statin APIs, and if we look at our s- our, our share in the US market, um, again, a 40% market share in atorvastatin and rosuvastatin in the US. So probably one in two tablets that are prescribed by any CVS or any pharmacy would be a Biocon statin, so which is a great thing. In fact, I find lots of people sending me pictures of the Biocon, uh, bottle of a, of a, atorvastatin saying, "Hey, I'm using a Biocon product." So I think that's made us very
- 57:20 – 58:18
Pioneering anti-cancer and immunosuppressants
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
big.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Then we went into another s- uh, group of, um, products produced by fermentation, uh, and this was a immunosuppressant that is used by, you know, a large number of, uh, patients who need immunosuppressants. For example, uh, all transplant patients need to take an immunosuppressant to prevent organ rejection, and then they have to take it l- lifelong. And these are products called limuses. So tacrolimus, everolimus, um, you know, these are some of the... And we also make sirolimus. So they are either anti-cancer or anti, uh, you know, the immunosuppressants.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Again, we have a huge, uh, presence in the world. We have, again, a 50% dominance of the raw material and also in the fi- finished product in many, many markets. And then
- 58:18 – 1:00:40
Transforming the insulin market: Biocon's groundbreaking role
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I went on to insulin. That is the greatest story which I like to tell, because we started the insulin program in the year 2000 when I'd started looking at biopharmaceuticals and I said, "What else can I do with recombinant DNA technology?" And I realized that India was at the epicenter of diabetes. We were importing all our insulins and, unfortunately, uh, most 90% of those insulins were animal insulins, means insulin derived from extracting the pancreas of cows and pigs-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... so bovine and porcine insulin-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... uh, because that was the only cheap insulin-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... available at that time. Recombinant human insulin-
- NKNikhil Kamath
What is recombinant?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Means produced d- using a technology that I mentioned earlier, where you do a plug and play. You, you plug in, uh, the genetic sequence of an insulin into a, a bacteria or a yeast.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And they... It's just like a barcode. Your body just-- I mean, the living system just reads the barcode-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... and produces the protein. So whether it's a natural protein of the thing or whether you've now inserted a new gene, it just reads it and makes insulin ins- also. So that's how we use-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... recombinant DNA technology. And so I said, "You know, uh, recombinant DNA tech-" uh, recombinant human insulin was way beyond the reach of most patients in India. It was 10 times the price of animal insulin, so only the affluent patients could afford it. So I said, "Look, I've got to do something about this." So that's what made me develop a recombinant human insulin using my own proprietary technology-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... on which I had several patents. And I was able to develop it. So in 2004, I launched India's first recombinant human insulin, and I brought the prices crashing down, so much so that I forced the innovator brands to also come down to my pricing. And so n- now, of course, nobody uses animal insulin.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I was able to bring the prices down to-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... animal insulin levels.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. And this decision
- 1:00:40 – 1:02:10
Entrepreneurial pivots: Valuable insights for success
- NKNikhil Kamath
to pivot, I think it's so important for every entrepreneur. When you do a certain thing which does well, how do you bring it in you to kind of like think of something new altogether? Because you have something which is doing well, growing, and recognizing that need.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So, you know, um, that's a very important question to ask, uh, on this kind of a conversation about entrepreneurship.... you know that, um, everything has a shelf life, and you keep on doing much of the same, you'll suddenly find that there comes a time when there's a cliff, and it's too late to do something in a hurry. So you've got to keep challenging yourself to reinvent, uh, to look at what is- what, what next? What else can I do? What's the next product? It's, it's like in your case, right? What's the next product offering? What's the next financial, uh, you know, product that I can develop? And what do you think... You have to anticipate what the market needs, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So that's how I started pivoting into insulins, which I think was the best thing for me to have done.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And that was the time I decided to then IPO-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... when we were about to launch insulin. And I knew that, you know, just the thought of launching the, a, a recombinant human insulin, which did have a great market potential-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... would create a, a, a value for the company that was going to be very
- 1:02:10 – 1:05:20
IPO: The launchpad to Kiran's billionaire status
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
different.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So most people I have spoken to who have IPO'd their company, people who have scaled immensely, majority of them regret that decision to IPO because of the compliance, shareholder relationship, and the amount of time that takes up. What is your opinion on that?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Well, you know, I don't subscribe to that idea-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... because I believe that, um, as you grow your company, you need, uh, you need a capital value for a kind of a currency that you use to grow your company with. So if you create a valuation for your company, you can use that as a very, very powerful currency-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... uh, to do many more things.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I think, for instance, uh, let me be very honest. Um, you know, I've created, uh, so far three companies, you know, distinct companies. Uh, one, uh, is, of course, the original Biocon. Then Biocon created a subsidiary called Syngene, which is a research services company. Today, Syngene is the most successful research services company. Biocon owns almost 65% of that company. But when we needed money to pay for a very recent mega acquisition that we did in the US, I actually monetized 10% of that company-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... for over $300 million. Because today by- and today, Syngene is worth about four and a half billion dollars.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I think you need those kind of monetizable ch- uh, you know, channels-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... which you then use to grow other parts of your business.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Or grow the same business, because that becomes a very powerful currency.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So today, for instance, I've created Biocon Biologics, which is worth about $6 billion in valuation. And if I have to do a... And, and I could only do that deal at that value to make that acquisition, which was part cash, part stock, and if I didn't have that currency, I don't think I could have afforded to do that acquisition. So I think g- you know, the IPO basically gives you a, a huge currency valuation, which you can then use in many, many ways, uh, to trade, to leverage, to do what you want to grow the business in different ways.
- NKNikhil Kamath
2005 IPO happened. Uh-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
2004.
- NKNikhil Kamath
2004 IPO happened. How did it change your life personally? Did you suddenly become recognizable in a manner you had not experienced before?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Absolutely.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I mean, I was always... I mean, I suddenly was launched into fame as India's richest woman.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Richest self-made woman.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yes. Then-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Which is even b- better and bigger in my opinion.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Absolutely, and w- uh, and India's, uh, you know, self-made billionaire-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- 1:05:20 – 1:09:15
How money defines Kiran
- NKNikhil Kamath
can I say this? Like, we've been friends for quite a while now-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Mm-hmm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... and I have never seen money define you in any way whatsoever. Like, even in our conversations, uh, for someone like you who doesn't have any dependents today, like, you don't have kids, uh, what, what does money really mean?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
You know, for me, wealth has never been about money. Wealth has been about value creation. That's what I've always felt about myself. So I've never really focused on my bank balance or how much I'm worth in, in, in billions of dollars. My worth is about the value I've created over time. And for me, the most exciting part of this wealth creation journey has been about the value of knowledge. So, you know, from starting in 1978 to becoming a billion-dollar company in 2004 was a long time, right? Um, so from that point of view, it was about 26 years in which I created that kind of, uh, wealth. And so therefore, I feel that, um, now taking it to the next level, uh, is, is what I'm really excited about. Saying: How do I create the next big value, uh, for this company? And the way I'm trying to do it is to get onto a very new path. And one of my, uh, strategies as an entrepreneur has always been about differentiation. I never want to be a me-too company. I always want to lead the way, and therefore, I'm willing to take bigger risks than other people.... um, you know, uh, just before I came for this meeting, I was having a chat with some of the financial, um, investors, and I was just trying to tell them that, uh, the kind of business I have created today is a very big risk in terms of, uh, the nature of the business. And, uh, fortunately, I've done this over a 10-year period, and therefore I've been able to absorb a lot of the shocks of the, the business. Anyone who now wants to venture into this kind of a business will find it very difficult because it has a direct impact on their EBITDA. Today, I enjoy one of the highest EBIDTAs in the pharmaceutical industry, and in, in India. And, um, if any Indian pharmaceutical company wants to now venture into biosimilars like I have done, it will, you know, have a huge impact on their EBITDA and their earnings, which I don't think anyone wants to do at this point in time. So you see, what I, uh, want to really sort of focus on is about how entrepreneurs should think about their business. Um, you need to be looking at the future and future-proofing your business, even if it means that you start investing in risk, uh, you know, i- in, in embedded risk. And once you understand that risk and how to mitigate that risk, I think you will be a very, very differentiated company. But to take the safe route of opting for low-risk ventures will not make you stand out, and I think you know
- 1:09:15 – 1:11:06
Nikhil & Kiran's personal journey: Kids & family
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
this as well.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Can I digress and ask you a question? This decision not to have kids, I'll, I'll tell you where it is coming from. I'm 36.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I did not ever have that, uh, decision not to have kids.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
It's, uh, unfortunate that I got married very late in life, and John and I very much wanted to see if we could have a, a kid, but it didn't work out, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Like, as my friend, if you were to give me any advice, like, at 36, people say mathematically the odds of you having a kid beyond 40 go down significantly. And if I don't have kids and do not intend to have kids, do you think... That's my intention, by the way. And do you think I'm gonna l- miss out on a lot in life?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
No, I don't think you miss out on a, a lot because, you know, you, you come to terms with the fact that you don't have a kid. I mean, I would- I'm, I'm very much, uh, a kind of person who enjoys young children. I love young kids, and I would have been very happy if I had my own kid, but I didn't have a kid of my own. But that doesn't mean that, uh, I have a huge, uh, you know, uh, void in my life as such.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
You learn to cope with your life. I mean, you know, my company is my baby, so to speak.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And, uh, of course, John and I, uh, spent a lot of, uh, time together building the company. We had wonderful times traveling the world together, discovering opportunities together. So yes, I don't have, uh, those kind of regrets, not having a, a, a child-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... of my own. But for someone like you, if, if you've decided you don't want to have a child, there's nothing wrong in
- 1:11:06 – 1:12:00
Demographic dynamics: India vs China fertility rates
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
that. You know, Nikhil, first and foremost, let me draw your attention to what happened in China with the one-child policy.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Today, they are suffering from a very serious demographic disadvantage.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Whilst India is actually trying to reap the benefits of our demographic dividend.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Um, it is scary what's happening in China.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So if everyone had your attitude-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... and if we didn't have enough kids-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... uh, we would be degrowing-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... and we would get into a, an aging population very fast.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. Which I think we will, 'cause India's fertility rates have come from four to-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
The replacement rate has come be- uh, you know, in many parts of the country-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Below 2.1
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... to or below.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Uh, but I think that's, that's something which we have to really watch out for. I think not having a kid is, is, is, is fine, uh, in terms of a personal choice,
- 1:12:00 – 1:14:43
The power of giving back: Nikhil’s & Kiran's philanthropy; the Giving Pledge
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
and I think, um, what also is, is something you and I share is about philanthropy.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I think, um, when you don't have kids, you tend to be more philanthropic. That's what I feel.
- NKNikhil Kamath
100%-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Okay
- NKNikhil Kamath
... because there's no one-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Because-
- NKNikhil Kamath
... to leave anything back.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
No, I do, I do want to leave some money-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... for my family.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I mean, I do want some inheritance to go to my family. But I think by and large, when you create the kind of wealth that you and I are creating, then obviously you want to make sure, and you've signed the Giving Pledge like I did, you want to make sure that at least a significant part of your wealth-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... um, is used for philanthropic impact.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, and that's the-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And that's what I really enjoy doing-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... these days. And I think once you kind of come to my kind of age, and, and, and I'm sure I have 10 years of active business life left-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... but after that, I think what would really give me a lot of pleasure-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... what to see- is to see the philanthropic impact my philanthropy has had. And I've been investing a lot in, um, research and higher education, 'cause to me, that is what will define the demographic dividend for our country.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I've been trying to invest as much as I could in, in a, in a big way. Uh, because I think I also feel that-... philanthropy should not be making small, fragmented investments which may not have the kind of impact you can have by making large, substantial investments.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I, for one, have always decided that whatever I'm gonna do, I want to start building critical mass. That's why I've, I've invested a lot in institution building. See, I don't want to run these institutions, but if my cap- my philanthropic capital can help, um, you know, uh, create that impact, I'm very happy to invest in those kind of, uh, programs.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. So even when I was joining that pledge-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Ah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... I, I remember asking you, "Any advice?" I asked Nandan as well, and the thing was, it was not a saintly, altruistic act per se, but it was clarity over the fact ... It took longer than it should have, but I got some kind of clarity that I will never have kids. And if that is the decision I have made, there is really no point, you know, one day you will die, and it is so unpredictable today, that you die with money in your bank account, which kind of like, has nowhere to go, but you'd rather be more, uh, more participate in the community, 'cause that actually makes
- 1:14:43 – 1:19:15
The purpose behind this podcast
- NKNikhil Kamath
you feel better. So even with this podcast, uh, like, we never did it with the intent of making money, right? Like, so we thought we will create really educative, informative shows, put them out for free. But what we also realized is we have to inculcate and encourage the audience to give money, and, uh, the high that they get from that is also very addictive. So what we have thought is, for every show, like, I will ask you at the end of the show, like, maybe you can allocate some money, donate some money. I will donate some money, and we will let the audience have a poll. They get to pick which charity the money goes to, and hopefully that encourages a larger part of society to come in and participate in whatever the community needs.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Sure. Yeah, I think it's very important for society to give back. I always believed that. You know, I think, uh, indulging in yourself is fine up to a point, but I think, uh, you know, investing in society is so important. And there are so many things in a society like ours to- that requires investment. So I think, for me, when I look at, uh, the demographic dividend that India has the potential to benefit from, it's really about creating an educated, a young, uh, population that knows, uh, what and how to leverage knowledge. And if we can do that, uh, well, and that's why I think we need to make sure that our education is of a high standard. You know, it's not just about, uh, rote learning, it's not about, uh, just going through a curriculum, but it's about learning how to learn, and applying your knowledge and your mind in a way that generates new knowledge. I think that's the way we have to educate our young.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And I think, uh, you know, I- the new education policy is, uh, trying to see whether they can, uh, develop a new kind of teaching and learning experience that, uh, is about a curiosity-driven learning. And I really hope that works, because if it does, and it has to start right from school, then I think we really can look forward to a huge demographic dividend.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I must tell you a joke.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Uh, I was recently on a global, uh, panel discussion. I mean, it is just- uh, it was being moderated by, uh, a very, uh, uh, one of the investment banks, and it was, uh, you know, it was Morgan Stanley. And, uh, there was a, a US... Uh, I mean, there was a Chinese, uh, y- woman entrepreneur who- from Hong Kong, and there was me, uh, from India. And so it was about the India-China, you know, economies. And of course, uh, the last question she asked was... And we were talking about this demographic dividend, and I was talking about how India has this, uh, you know, at the moment, a very big advantage over many aging economies and, and, anyhow, that was the kind of discussion we were having. I was talking about the STEM talent being developed in India in sheer numbers. So the final question was: "Kiran, if there was one thing you would like from China, what would it be?" And I said, "Well, it's very clear to me that it's infrastructure, infrastructure, and infrastructure," 'cause that's what is lacking in India to make the most of everything we have. And so when the Chinese lady was asked, "What is that one thing you would like from India?" She said, "Babies, babies-
- NKNikhil Kamath
[chuckles]
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... and babies." So you can see-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... how danger it is, uh, dangerous it is to become an aging population.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And that's what Europe is becoming, that's what Japan has already-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... uh, become, and China is becoming very rapidly.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So there are very few parts of the world which have young populations, and we should make the most of it. But that young population is of no use if they are not educated.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. So you and
- 1:19:15 – 1:22:10
India's policies and pharma climate
- NKNikhil Kamath
I often meet politicians together, and we try and, uh, participate in policymaking or we, we don't really participate in policymaking, but-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
At least discuss policies.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, yeah. Things that we believe can help.... what do you think about the broader political climate of India today? And what do you think, uh, needs to change tomorrow to expedite the rate of change which is happening in India, all towards the positive, in my opinion?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I think India is in a very unique position today because, you know, all the stars have lined up in our favor, and I think you couldn't have a better time than today. Uh, when, you know, the geopolitics of our time are alienating China, where, uh, India is suddenly becoming the favored- most favored nation, I would say, or the most favored destination for many things, including manufacturing. A lot of geopolitical shifts are happening, and it's favoring India, so we have a lot going for us. I think the government has certainly, uh, seized on this opportunity, and it is coming up with very, very good policies. You know, one great advantage India has, and that's thanks to a lot of government policies, is the digital revolution that's happening in India. I think India's, uh, you know, digital payment gateways, uh, India's, uh, digital transformation pathways in every aspect, whether it's healthcare, whether, whether it's edtech, whether it's anything, you know, e-tailing, uh, I think we're really poised for great growth. And, and, and this is something that the world is taking notice of because we've done things extremely well. We've leapfrogged in many ways, and the world is suddenly watching us and saying, "Hey, India is in a different league." And I think many parts of the world are now trying to emulate us. I think starting with the way we went about Aadhaar and the way we've sort of leveraged Aadhaar in many aspects of our digital world is really, uh, commendable. So I think the world is suddenly saying, "Hey, what is it that India did that we missed out on?"
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So that's great, and, and I think India- and I think the government has done very well in terms of, uh, coming up with policies that, uh, augment and accelerate the process even further. In our own field of biotech and bios- life sciences, I think India is suddenly now, uh, focusing on the pharmaceutical industry as the pharmacy of the world. And of course, they've come up with production-linked incentives. I've also been trying to advocate for research-linked incentives because without research,
- 1:22:10 – 1:23:15
Empowering India to lead, not follow!
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
the pharmaceutical industry will be stunted and stifled. So I think that's where the government really needs to act fast.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you think India's share of research in GDP spend is-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Very low. Very, very low. You know, we spend less than 1% on research as a country.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And the US is, uh-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
... closer to 3, 4%?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
It's about 6%.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And, uh, it's about 4%. Korea spends the most in s- as, uh, you know, 6%, and of course, smaller countries like Israel also spend about 8%. Uh, so many parts of the world, the average spend is between 4 to 5%. India needs to at least double its spend, given the size of our country. So even if we spend 2% of our GDP on, on R&D, I think it will catapult us into a very different league. Today, we are followers, we are not innovators, and I think that's where we ought to be, and we have that potential, you know, but we are not leveraging it enough.
- 1:23:15 – 1:24:42
Kiran's view on retirement at 70
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. What is retirement to you, Kiran? Somebody said, uh, when you're sacrificing today towards a im- imaginary tomorrow, that's when you have freedom or retirement. How does that concept play out in your mind? What is re- retirement? What is freedom?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So, you know, it's a [chuckles] it's a very difficult question to answer because I think for me, in the minds of many people, it's a kind of a, a cutoff date. For me, it's not a cutoff date.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
For me, it's slightly sort of freeing up more time not to have day-to-day pressure. So today, I think I will give myself another 10 years of active engagement, so to speak, where I can't possibly say, "Oh, tomorrow I'm going to take a break," or, "Tomorrow I want to do something which, um, today I can't even think of." So if I want to take a holiday, I should be able to come to that, uh, point where I say, "Hey, I feel like going and visiting some part of the world, and maybe I'll do it next week." I can't even think of that today. Today, I- my entire calendar is planned out. And so retirement to me is when my calendar is flexible. That's what I mean as retirement. I know it will never be free, but it should be flexible.
- 1:24:42 – 1:28:51
Virtue signalling unmasked: A candid look at today's world
- NKNikhil Kamath
So when your brother was here a couple of weeks ago, we had lunch on Sunday, and, uh, he's a professor. He teaches in Canada. And, uh, a lot of what he said I found extremely intriguing, but one thing in particular he was talking about is virtue signaling in the world today. Do you think we all project an image of ourselves upon the world, depending on our own evolution and depending on what the world will be okay to accept today, and in that process, have we lost touch with who we truly are, and we're always in conflict, contradicting ourselves, our outer self with our inner self?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So, you know, Nikhil, I think virtue signaling is a problem in the world.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But I, for one, believe that-... many of us in Bangalore are not virtue signaling.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Because we are who we are. I think we speak our minds, we are not fake. We do and say things as they are, and I don't think we are virtue signalers.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And I think we should remain that way, right? And that's why I think, um, we are accepted and we can engage with anyone and everyone. Even in our own country, I find there's too much virtue signaling. You know, how you dress, uh, seems to be the way you judge people, and I think that's so wrong. I don't think anyone judges us the way we dress in Bangalore.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Right? You can wear anything you want-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... and people will look at you as who you are.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But not so in other parts of the country.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So, you know, I'm often told, "Oh, when you go to a government office, you should wear a sari."
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And I said, "Why?" You know, I'm there to discuss something. It's not about what I wear, it's about what I say.
- NKNikhil Kamath
But it happens a lot today, doesn't it? Like-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
It does, it does. I mean-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Even virtue signaling
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... even in the world, in the world, it happens a lot.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And I think today the world is becoming a world that does not tolerate-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... uh, any kind of comments or statements which are considered politically un- incorrect.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. So anybody-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Right
- NKNikhil Kamath
... who is not a conformist today, in a, in conformist to popular opinion, faces a harder time than they should. And by popular opinion, I don't mean anything political, but it could be things around-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Anything
- 1:28:51 – 1:31:37
3 changes India needs
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm. We talk about politics and government so much, and, uh, I think India today has that unique position in the world, where I meet investors from different countries. Most of them are very critical about Europe, about the US, about their own geographies right now, but they're very optimistic on India. I think you see all- you see that also in the fund flow and the interest-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... of money coming into India. Do you think the stability on the top, which India did not have for a long time, but we've had it under the incumbent government, uh, that has created this narrative for India?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I think, definitely, I think stable governments make a big difference, uh, to the, the way the world views any country. Stable governments with stable economic policies is what investors look at, right? Now, obviously, the Modi government has done extremely well. It's been around for a long time, and they've basically made sure that economic policies are very stable, and that really ap- appeals to the outside world, whether it's investors, whether it's other governments trying to work free trade agreements. I think all that is, is, augurs very well for us. And I think what we now need to do is to focus on our own internal needs of what we need as a country to grow even faster. And so there, I think we need- I mean, I think we are doing a terrific job on infrastructure. I think that needs to be scaled up at a very rapid pace. And again, I go back to even our own city, we have infrastructure that doesn't match the intellectual potential of this coun- this city, so it has to match. Uh, so infrastructure, yes, a good tick mark there in terms of the country. I think in terms of economic policies, I would still like to see a convertible rupee sooner than later.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Fully capital account convertible.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yes, yes. I think that would make it a very, very strong economy.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I also think when it becomes capital account convertible, in my opinion, more money will come in than go out.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Exactly. So I think that's a really big need for this country, and that's where I think the government ought to be focused on, okay?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Everything else is going well, uh, but this is a crying need. Uh, the third thing I think we need is, um, a very strong, reliable tax policies for the future. How do we see tax, uh, uh, you know, for, for industry, for investors?
- 1:31:37 – 1:36:03
Empowering women in the workforce: Challenges and ESG perspectives
- NKNikhil Kamath
Women in the workforce, the number is low in India, very low compared to many geographies across the world.... uh, when I think of it as a layman, I think if a country has 100 people, if 50 are men and 50 are women, and 50% of the population, only 20% are working, it will have a very direct natural impact on GDP. Why do you think it is low, and what do you think needs to change to change that equation around?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Well, I think basically it's about societal culture in terms of how they look at employment, how they look at breadwinners, how they perceive women and women's role in society.
- NKNikhil Kamath
You're kind of testament to why it doesn't have to be that way.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yeah, and, and there are many women like me-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm, mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... who prove that it doesn't have to be that way. I think today I'm very happy that ESG has brought in a lot of focus-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... on including women in, in economic, uh, mean- in the economic mainstream. And, you know, let me start with just the, the, the venture, uh, funding industry, right? Venture capital. You know and I know that if you look at where most of the venture funds go, it is to businesses run by men.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
That's because the money is in the hands of men, and men feel more comfortable investing in ventures run by men. Um, women do f- still find it a big challenge to raise equity, to raise capital, to raise venture capital. And, uh, very often I've heard, um, uh, VCs say, "You know, we're more impressed with the way this guy is talking about his business than the way this woman is talking about her business." And I think that's unfair, because, you know, each one will have their own style, but you actually have to look at the fundamentals of that business, rather than making a judgment call on whether it's a man or a woman running that business.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you think there is that predisposition?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Absolutely.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Even in venture capital?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
In venture capital, for sure.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I d- I still find that a big challenge, and for women, okay? Because I went through the same thing myself, but I still find that it still remains even today. But having said that, I think the world is changing. I know that today companies are being forced-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... to look at their gender balance.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I mean, look at what's happened on our boards, Nikhil.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I mean, that's a crying shame, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Today, every company might have one woman on the board because it's statutorily required. But if they didn't have to do that, believe me, you wouldn't have so many women on the boards.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, 100%.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And today, why can't you have more than 30, 40% of your board as women? Nothing prevents you from going beyond that one person.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
That's because there are not enough women who are noticed. You will only appoint the same five women.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Um, it's like in philanthropy, they're always targeting 10 philanthropists for everything.
- 1:36:03 – 1:38:05
Women's roles across sectors at Biocon
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you find it harder to hire women? If you were to put a job posting and you got 100 applications, how many would be men and how many would be women?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Actually, um, it depends on which, what job you're, uh, interviewing for.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Like jobs at Biocon.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
[lips smack] So in R&D, I have no problems. In fact, even right now, more than 40% of my, uh, researchers are women, so there it's, it's not such a difficult thing. Uh, I guess HR is the same. You know, you'll find a lot of women getting into HR. But I'm now challenging my people in terms of marketing, you know, sales and marketing in pharmaceuticals. That is, like, 90% men-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... which I find really not acceptable.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Isn't that the opposite in US, pharmaceutical sales reps are mostly women?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Not necessarily.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
There are still a lot of men. So not, uh, sales reps. Marketing, there are a lot of women-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... but sales reps still end up being... I mean, there are, the percentage is much higher in the US, it's about 40%. Here, it's only 10%, but I'm trying to increase that. I said, "Why, why can't women-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... go and be sal- sales reps?" Um, manufacturing is where I find it, uh, very difficult.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And I'm saying, "Hey, guys-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... if Ola can have 100% women on their shop floor-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm, mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... what's wrong with us?"
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So today, I'm, after all that kind of discussions, I'm happy that many parts of our organization have got 100% women on the shop floor in certain parts of our manufacturing.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I said, "Let's, let's, let's change the balance." So there's no excuse. Yes, we did have a problem in the pharmaceutical industry, [lips smack] where they would only allow one shift for women.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So when it's just a general shift, then you... It's unfair on the men.... that, you know, all the women only get to come on the general shift, and all the men have to come on night shifts. So I think that now has changed. The government has allowed women to work in other shifts. So that is going to now change, uh, the dynamics.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- 1:38:05 – 1:40:45
IP ownership: The key to long-term profitability
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. So coming back to, uh, Biocon, we were at 2005, IPO has happened. Company went from being a 100 crore company to a billion-dollar company very quickly, in a few years. What happened next?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Well, then, of course, the business grew. I started creating another business, which is biosimilars, and that became a very big business.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Syngene.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
No, that was Biocon Biologics.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Syngene was created in 1993.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But we took it public in 2015.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Uh, in 2007, I actually divested the enzyme business, and that's another thing that I wanted to mention, that as an entrepreneur, you have to take some hard decisions. Don't be wedded to a historic business.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
If that business can be monetized, and if someone else can make a bigger business of that business, divest it. I knew I was not gonna invest more in enzymes. I was gonna make all my investments in biopharmaceuticals.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Why was that?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Because biopharmaceuticals needed huge investments, and I knew I was going to ignore and neglect enzymes, because even enzymes needed a lot of investment to grow.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But then I had to make that choice, right? Where was I gonna make the bigger investments? I was gonna make the bigger investments in biopharmaceuticals. So I felt that if that was the case, then it's not fair to hang on to a historic business and stunt it, and that's where I decided, "Okay, let me divest this business." And I divested it to my biggest competitor, Novozymes, which was the Danish company I used to compete with worldwide, and they always told me, they said, "You know, interestingly, India was the only country where you were number one."
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And therefore, they gladly bought my business. I got a huge return on that investment, and of course, a lot of that investment, uh, I mean, a lro- lot of that returns I got was because of the IP I had created for, for enzymes. And that is what also told me that IP is so valuable, right? Today, that business has grown five times more. That's because they invested so much on it. And they were telling me that the IP that they bought from me and the, the enzymes I was u- I was making, using that proprietary technology, has now grown tenfold, and they still think that's one of the best technologies they've bought. So that makes us very proud-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... that, you know, we, we actually invented a technology that has stood us so well, and it is continuing to grow. So it's, it's, it's a very enduring technology
- 1:40:45 – 1:44:47
How Biocon became the world's No. 1 biosimilar company
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
that we built.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And from 2005, '06, up until 2023, what have been the highlights of Biocon?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So now the highlight is obviously the biologics business, which is now going... It, it gives us the opportunity to be the number one biosimilars company in the world, now that I've made this acquisition.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So last year, I acquired-
- NKNikhil Kamath
What is, what is this, very simply, biosimilars?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So biosimilars is nothing but... You know, India is very well known for generic medicines.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Generic medicines are chemical versions of drugs-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... right? Chemically synthesized-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... drugs.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So you are able to, um, copy a, a chemically synthesized drug, and when the patent runs out, you're able to then launch, uh, the, the generic version, which ob- obviously is a much lower cost-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... version of that drug, and it just expands the market.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Um, so in the biologic sense, you also have these biopharmaceuticals, which are very complex drugs.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Not the, not the statins and immunosuppressants, but the insulins, the antibodies. Antibodies are very, very difficult to-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... to copy, let's put it that way.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
It's like developing a new drug.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So you need to s- start with a cell line. You need to start with a genetic sequence. You need to make sure that the antibody that you've developed actually matches the innovator's antibody. So it's a very, very innovative process. And so it's very diff- and it takes long to develop, then you have to do a lot of extensive clinical trials to show that they match. Because it's a biologic drug, so the dangers of, of immunological side effects of, um, of, um, you know, the, um, antibodies that can... I mean, um, because you're developing a monoclonal antibody, it can become very immunogenic if it's not exact, and it can cause other kinds of... So, so the, the, the way you develop these drugs is very difficult. Therefore, if you look at in, in India, we are the only company that has managed to develop biosimilars for global markets.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
No other Indian company has been able to take their products to the US-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- 1:44:47 – 1:45:43
Unraveling Biocon: Is it a holding company?
- NKNikhil Kamath
But the value of that is created in Biocon, I'm thinking.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I mean, Biocon has created two big subsidiaries-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... one worth four-and-a-half billion. This is already worth six billion, but, you know, let's see what we can command when we go to the market. And Biocon, it's not a... It's not strictly a holding company because it has these two subsidiaries, and it has its, the generics business embedded in Biocon.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So it's, it is a very unique company because it, it actually, uh, captures a lot of value in res- from research to commercialization. And I think, uh, it's, it is a very differentiated stock, which again, the markets don't understand. They keep calling it a holding company, but it's not.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
It is a, it is a biotech stock-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... that straddles research to commercialization, and it, and it gives you a huge amount of value to cover.
- 1:45:43 – 1:47:30
Biotech startup guide: How to venture into the field
- NKNikhil Kamath
So for someone young starting off, both as an entrepreneur or as a career in this industry, how, how does somebody start off a business around this?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So, you know, starting a, a me-too company is easy.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
You can do it anywhere.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But I think what Bangalore is good at is starting new innovative biotech ventures.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I mentioned, uh, my colleagues who started the seaweed-based biofuel company.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
That was a very innovative idea.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But there are many, many, many, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... companies. In fact, Bangalore is home to the largest number of life science startups in the country-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... you'll be interested to know.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Unlike Hyderabad.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So you've got Pandorum Technologies-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... which is developing these, um, uh, differentiated, uh, stem cell-based technologies where you can produce an artificial liver-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... or an artificial organ.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you have an opinion on CRISPR, the company in America?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yeah, so CRISPR is a very good company-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... which is deve- It's gene editing.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Correct.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yeah.
- 1:47:30 – 1:49:16
Bio-revolution: From cloning to designer babies
- NKNikhil Kamath
believe the dispo- dystopian story that some people paint, that it will lead to artificially augmented humans and stuff like that?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Look, all these, uh, predictions are there-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... but there are going to be regulations that won't allow that to happen.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So, you know, you had Dolly the sheep that was-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... created many, many years ago.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Uh, decades ago. Um, you know, cloning is still used now in-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... in animal breeding-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... but at what scale, right? You know, um, it, it's a good, uh, technology. If, if you want to breed cattle of one species or something like that, you can do it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Uh, but I think designer babies is something which, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is scary.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Not scary-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... but if you think about it, if, if you, if you... For instance, today, you always do all these scans and tests, amniotics tests-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... uh, when you're, uh, when you're pregnant, and if you find that there is a genetic deficiency in a kid-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... would you not like to correct it?
- NKNikhil Kamath
100%.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So those are the kind of technologies you can use to correct it in the baby-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... that when the baby is born, it doesn't have that genetic defect, which can be life-debilitating.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. I think what I-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I think they will allow you to use CRISPR technologies like they use gene therapies today-
- 1:49:16 – 1:51:07
Biotech startups to watch out for
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. What else can you think of in terms of, say, somebody wants a startup?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So now, so let me tell you some of the other companies. So today, cell and gene therapy companies are coming up in the startup, uh, you know, world in India-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... which I think is very exciting.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I've invested in a company called Immunil, which has developed, uh, you know, a CAR T therapy for untreatable ca- uh, you know, blood cancers. Um, you know, there's a, there's a company called ImmunAct, uh, started by, uh, an IIT professor who's also doing a similar thing. Um, there is, uh, now this whole notion of, uh, g- you know, genomic mapping is becoming so important. So Map My Genome, which was started by a-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... young woman entrepreneur-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... Anu Acharya.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
She's been struggling for a long time, but I think today finally she sees that things are happening.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Um, you know, Strand Genomics, which was also a very innovative company-... started from, by a professor from IISC, Vijay Chandru. He just sold Strand Genomics to Reliance.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Reliance wants to invest in biotech. So I think lots of interesting things are happening.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And I see BugWorks is developing these antimicrobial-resistant antibiotics. Um, very, very innovative companies are coming up based on either a combination of AI and life sciences, or new devices, or new technologies. Uh, I myself spun off a company from Biocon called ByCara-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Uh, you know, which I took to Boston.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And today, that's the mo- the hottest biotech startup-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... in, in that onco field.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
They just presented at ASCO, and huge reception. I'm glad that innovation came out of our labs in Biocon, in Bangalore.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- 1:51:07 – 1:53:31
Hottest biotech sectors right now
- NKNikhil Kamath
So if I were to be a 25-year-old with not too much access to capital or the know-how of mu- much of what you spoke about, and I want to create a startup in this industry, is there a sector that you would kind of, like, push me towards, if I had to pick just one thing?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I think, you know, biotech is such a vast area-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... that it's very difficult to tell anyone to pick one thing, because-
- NKNikhil Kamath
One part of biotech?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
No, I think, you know, you have to look at what is your area of interest.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Like, you know, in this whole digital world-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... would I say only go for financial, uh, you know, you know, mo- you know-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... products?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Or would I say no, I think it's great to also go for, um, you know, re- e-tailing, or it's, it's, it's also as exciting to develop an app for X, Y, and Z. So, you know, it's very difficult to tell young entrepreneurs just to focus on one area.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
But today, all I would say is that the opportunities are limitless.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
From CRISPR technologies to, uh, mRNA vaccines, to, um, you know, um, uh, to, to various kinds of, uh, you know, uh, anti-cancer molecules, to diagnostics, to, um, you know, to, to instrumentation, to so many things. And everyone's looking at every possible, uh, area.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I don't think I would like any entrepreneur to get fixated on one area. But there are lots of these hot areas like, you know, there's genomics, CRISPR-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... mRNA.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
You know, just for the first time, I've seen data using an mRNA cancer vaccine for pancreatic cancer, where 50% of the patients are cancer-free after one year, which is amazing.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So look what's happening in-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... in the world of medicine.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I think the world of medicine is changing rapidly.
- 1:53:31 – 1:54:37
An emotional tribute, Nikhil thanks Kiran
- NKNikhil Kamath
So when you bring up cancer, it reminds me of one thing. Like, it's a compliment to you in front of your face, which is a little awkward, but, uh, when my sister-in-law kind of fell sick two years ago, you had never met her, uh, you didn't know her at all, but I called you one day, and I said, "This has happened," and you spent 30 minutes on the phone with me, talking to different doctors, for at least a month. And, uh, I think people who don't know you, uh, it's very hard to get a sense of how special you are, but, uh, that's something I just had to add. [chuckles]
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Thank you. Thank you. No, but, um, you know, Seema is a very special person, and when I met her, and when you gave me the news, I, I felt really, really heartbroken, because she's such a lovely person, too young to have this happen to her.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And I just felt it was my responsibility to reach out to as many people as possible, to get as many opinions as possible, and touch wood, I hope she's fully cured.
- 1:54:37 – 1:57:54
Kiran's secret to overcoming challenges
- NKNikhil Kamath
Kiran, you are now 70, right?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I don't feel it, but I- [chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
You don't look it, either. You've had some crazy stuff happen in life, like, throughout your life, but as I have witnessed, like, you know, uh... I knew how close you were with your mother. I knew what John meant to you, and-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... uh, not having kids, but losing your mother and your husband, and I happened to be with you on both of those days, and I saw how resilient you were in the face of adversity. Even when we were at the cremation place, and here and there, uh, you were, you were, like, breaking down, but at no point have I seen you, through all of this, lose that drive. Like, you s- you still are as passionate talking about work today as you were at any other point. And what is that that keeps you going?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
You know, I guess you have to be a little philosophical about life. Yes, I was devastated, and it's left a huge void in my life. My life is never going to be the same because the two most special people in my life have... are no longer with me, and I really miss them every moment. But the fact of the matter is that we all know that life is unpredictable, um, and you have to live your life to the fullest. My late mother used to say-... that, "Look, don't waste your life. Life has a finite time. Make use of every minute."
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And the, the way she said it to me just before she died was she said, "Kiran, I'm not going to be there f- for you forever. And when I go, don't grieve for me. And if you have to grieve for me, don't grieve for too long, because you have a lot going for you, and you have to make use of your life, um, because there's not enough of time left for you to do everything you want to. So don't waste life. Life is not to be wasted, it's to be lived," she said. And that, I thought, was a very powerful message she gave me. That gave me a lot of strength. And so today, um, I feel that, yes, all of us have to come to terms with the fact that we just don't know what tomorrow brings, and we've got to live our life to the fullest. We've got to give life the best we can, and we have to make the most we can in terms of what we're trying to do with our lives. So if, if we keep sort of wasting our time, either grieving or feeling sorry for ourselves, then we are wasting our lives.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. And she worked till the last day, right?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
She-
- NKNikhil Kamath
She used to run her laundry business-
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
She worked to the very last day, yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Laundry business and cricket.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Correct. [chuckles] Correct. She was quite an amazing woman.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I mean, I owe a lot to her. I think a lot of the spunk that I have in myself-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
... is because of my mom's genes.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. Right.
- 1:57:54 – 1:59:04
Pick the charity of your choice and be part of something incredible!
- NKNikhil Kamath
So the intent with this show was, uh, every show should have some kind of a impact in society, and it's not about the quantum of money, but, uh, allowing the audience to pick where that charity is happening, uh, I think is a great idea towards getting people involved in communities and in causes around them. Uh, so we, we will pick a charity. We will also let the audience pick a charity. Uh, is there a amount that you think we should donate just to get this ki- kick-started?
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Well, anything you say, but maybe 25 lakhs each.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So we can do 25 lakhs each, 50 lakhs for this episode. And the audience, uh, please get involved. Uh, please pick. We want to keep this process as democratic as possible, and this decision will be made based on your choice solely. Uh, so looking forward to see- seeing how this experiment will play out, so we can scale this up and get more people involved in the future as well. Okay?
- 1:59:04 – 1:59:34
Outro
- NKNikhil Kamath
Thank you, Kiran, so much.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
Great idea. Thank you, Nikhil.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
I think you're always doing something so innovative.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Thank you so much.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
So I think this is a great way of getting people involved, engaged, and, and doing something for the country.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KSKiran Mazumdar Shaw
And I'm sure the Prime Minister will be very happy.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, I hope so, too. [chuckles] Thank you so much, Kiran. Thank you for doing this. Hi, I'm Nikhil Kamath. I'd love to know what you thought of the episode. Uh, comment, like, and subscribe, and thank you for watching.
Episode duration: 1:59:34
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