From Iran to Uber CEO | Nikhil Kamath x Dara Khosrowshahi | People by WTF | Ep. 14

1. 0:00 – 1:22

   Intro

   1. NKNikhil Kamath0:00

      [upbeat music] Wow, that looks very dead!

   2. DKDara Khosrowshahi0:37

      ... And the background. You got a good-

   3. NKNikhil Kamath0:39

      Mm.

   4. DKDara Khosrowshahi0:39

      You have a good day here.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath0:41

      It's hot though, right?

   6. DKDara Khosrowshahi0:42

      It's typical-

   7. NKNikhil Kamath0:43

      Yeah

   8. DKDara Khosrowshahi0:44

      ... SF weather.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath0:45

      Uh-oh.

   10. DKDara Khosrowshahi0:46

       Yesterday was super, super cold. I haven't been outside, so I didn't know it was hot today.

   11. NKNikhil Kamath0:49

       You live here?

   12. DKDara Khosrowshahi0:50

       No, New York now.

   13. NKNikhil Kamath0:51

       Oh.

   14. DKDara Khosrowshahi0:52

       I moved to New York recently, sadly. I like it here more, but...

   15. NKNikhil Kamath0:56

       Do you?

   16. DKDara Khosrowshahi0:56

       Parents are in New York, so I wanted to-- They're getting older.

   17. NKNikhil Kamath1:00

       New York seems like a lot more fun.

   18. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:02

       The city's more fun.

   19. NKNikhil Kamath1:03

       Yeah.

   20. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:03

       But I l- SF is beautiful. [upbeat music] Where

2. 1:22 – 1:58

   Dara’s visits to India

   1. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:22

      are you based?

   2. NKNikhil Kamath1:23

      Based out of India.

   3. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:24

      Okay. Where?

   4. NKNikhil Kamath1:24

      So I live between Bangalore, Mumbai, and Goa-

   5. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:28

      Okay.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath1:28

      -in India.

   7. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:28

      Okay.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath1:29

      Ha- have you been recently?

   9. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:30

      Uh, I go once a year. I don't remember... I, I was there earlier this year. Yeah, but-

   10. NKNikhil Kamath1:36

       Like it?

   11. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:36

       At least... Yeah, it's so, like, it's just... The energy is incredible, and the teams, you know, we got in, I think it's Hyderabad and Bangalore.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath1:47

       Mm.

   13. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:47

       We got teams there, and it's just a, like, a group who is super excited. The energy you get out of the teams when you go visit them is... It's pretty awesome. I like it a lot.

3. 1:58 – 4:42

   Uber’s Indian competitors

   1. NKNikhil Kamath1:58

      What's happening in India, Dara, with-- I know your main competition is Ola, who's also a really good friend of mine.

   2. DKDara Khosrowshahi2:05

      Yes.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath2:05

      We live in the same city.

   4. DKDara Khosrowshahi2:06

      Yes. Well, I... Uh, have we officially started?

   5. NKNikhil Kamath2:09

      Yeah! [chuckles]

   6. DKDara Khosrowshahi2:10

      All right, good. Okay. Um, Ola used to be our main competition.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath2:16

      Mm-hmm.

   8. DKDara Khosrowshahi2:17

      Uh, and, you know, we were always going head-to-head with O- Ola in terms of the category position in the marketplace. They were the local competitor. I think we had the better global tech, et cetera-

   9. NKNikhil Kamath2:30

      Yeah

   10. DKDara Khosrowshahi2:30

       ... but they were always scrappy. Um, I think he got, uh, somewhat distracted-

   11. NKNikhil Kamath2:37

       Mm-hmm

   12. DKDara Khosrowshahi2:38

       ... by other-

   13. NKNikhil Kamath2:39

       And things

   14. DKDara Khosrowshahi2:39

       ... interesting areas, uh, for him. So I'd say now the, the, the tougher competition in India is Rapido.

   15. NKNikhil Kamath2:47

       Mm-hmm.

   16. DKDara Khosrowshahi2:47

       You know, they're the upstart.

   17. NKNikhil Kamath2:49

       Mm-hmm.

   18. DKDara Khosrowshahi2:50

       They got into two-wheelers and three-wheelers really aggressively. Super simple model, just kind of the subscription, zero commission model. Very scrappy as well, and they have gained a good amount of category position. I think Ola's now kind of a distant third.

   19. NKNikhil Kamath3:10

       Mm-hmm.

   20. DKDara Khosrowshahi3:10

       They're trying to get into four-wheelers now. So we- when we talk about India, other than the talent that we have there and building there and really building on our talent base, but when we, when we talk about the business in India, and it's the third largest country in terms of mobility trips, so India is really important to us. The competition that we talk about is really Rapido, and what they're doing-

   21. NKNikhil Kamath3:31

       What do you think Rapido is getting right that the others are not?

   22. DKDara Khosrowshahi3:34

       Um, [exhales] you know, I'm not on the ground, but I think Rapido, uh, built a really simple model, which is basically, you know, the subscription model. You pay a certain amount, and for the rest of the day, you operate on what's essentially zero commission.

   23. NKNikhil Kamath3:49

       Right.

   24. DKDara Khosrowshahi3:50

       Uh, and once you pay the subscription, then because Rapido's essentially taking a zero commission-

   25. NKNikhil Kamath3:58

       Mm-hmm

   26. DKDara Khosrowshahi3:59

       ... then the, the driver pay is higher than a player, than a player who, like us, who's taking a commission on every trip. So I think that was a smart way for them to break into the marketplace. Rapido's not making money, so the real test of the business isn't how fast you can grow if you're spending, um, it's actually how fast you can grow while you're profitable, and I think Rapido is a long way a- away from that. But they've been innovative, they've been scrappy, they move fast. Um, it's a, it's a... They're, they're building their brand there in the local market, so we've got a lot of respect for them. Uh, and, you know, we intend to compete really hard with them.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath4:41

       Nice.

4. 4:42 – 10:47

   Growing up in Iran

   1. NKNikhil Kamath4:42

      So, Dara, this podcast that we do is largely focused around young wannabe entrepreneurs in India.

   2. DKDara Khosrowshahi4:52

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath4:53

      And the spaces that you operate in, uh, be it mobility, delivery, uh, may I also say autonomous vehicles-

   4. DKDara Khosrowshahi5:02

      Sure. Yeah

   5. NKNikhil Kamath5:02

      ... electric vehicles, these are taking up significant mind share in the dialogue that's happening back home.

   6. DKDara Khosrowshahi5:11

      Mm-hmm.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath5:11

      Uh, so at the end of today, if I, I can arrive at some takeaways that one could use in India to build around any of these sectors-

   8. DKDara Khosrowshahi5:21

      Sure

   9. NKNikhil Kamath5:21

      ... it'll be incredible. But maybe we start with you, the individual, and you give us a few minutes on where you began and how you arrived to where you are today.

   10. DKDara Khosrowshahi5:30

       Yeah, absolutely. So I was, uh, born in Iran.

   11. NKNikhil Kamath5:34

       Mm-hmm.

   12. DKDara Khosrowshahi5:34

       Uh, and, uh, during-- When I was born in Iran, the Shah of Iran was really trying to modernize Iran very quickly-

   13. NKNikhil Kamath5:42

       Mm-hmm

   14. DKDara Khosrowshahi5:42

       ... and I was part-- I was very lucky to be a part of a family that was part of the industrialization of, of Iran. There was a f- our family ran a group, Alborz Group, and then within it, manufacturing companies like Tolidaru, which, uh, were manufacturing... We licensed pharmaceuticals from the West-... and they manufacture them in Iran and then distribute them in Iran and the, and the Middle East. It was a big business. We're a very well-known family. My, my father was in charge of building out all the factories, and our family was raised with the assumption that we would then step into the family business and, and, and keep growing, and it, it was a really exciting time. I-

   15. NKNikhil Kamath6:24

       Can I digress and ask a question?

   16. DKDara Khosrowshahi6:27

       Yeah.

   17. NKNikhil Kamath6:27

       Whenever I read about Iran's history-

   18. DKDara Khosrowshahi6:29

       Mm-hmm.

   19. NKNikhil Kamath6:31

       When I talk to the young folk, the Shah's time seems to have been this great time. What happened? Why did it change? Why did the regime change?

   20. DKDara Khosrowshahi6:38

       Well, I think it was a great time for, uh, people who were lucky enough to participate in the modernization of Iran. The fact is-

   21. NKNikhil Kamath6:47

       Was it like crony capitalism?

   22. DKDara Khosrowshahi6:49

       I don't, it- I don't know enough-

   23. NKNikhil Kamath6:51

       Mm.

   24. DKDara Khosrowshahi6:51

       ... but I think that, to some extent, in hindsight, and hindsight is 2020, I think the Shah tried to modernize too quickly.

   25. NKNikhil Kamath6:59

       Mm-hmm.

   26. DKDara Khosrowshahi7:00

       I think that he was too focused on building up military power, so in terms of the growth of GDP in Iran, a significant amount went to establishing Iran as the power center of the Middle East, or the military power center of the Middle East versus the industrial power center o- of the Middle East. Uh, and I think he didn't bring along the outskirts, the people who lived in smaller cities, et cetera.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath7:28

       Mm.

   28. DKDara Khosrowshahi7:29

       And part of his modernization left Islam behind. Uh, and Iran as a culture is much more ancient than Islam-

   29. NKNikhil Kamath7:42

       Mm.

   30. DKDara Khosrowshahi7:42

       ... but I- Islam is part of the society as well, and so his moving too fast, his focusing on military power versus his people, his focus on kind of the big cities versus everybody-
5. 10:47 – 16:40

   Dara on religion & spirituality

   1. DKDara Khosrowshahi10:47

      there.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath10:47

      Are you religious, Dara?

   3. DKDara Khosrowshahi10:49

      I'm not religious. I'd say I'm spiritual.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath10:51

      Right.

   5. DKDara Khosrowshahi10:51

      Uh, but I'm not religious. I, uh, you know, I, I, I believe in the power of humanity, and I think religion, uh, is... plays to what makes us human and the relationships between us and the deep, deep good in all of us.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath11:10

      Mm-hmm.

   7. DKDara Khosrowshahi11:10

      And, uh, I think it's, it's beautiful. You know, religions, the stories-

   8. NKNikhil Kamath11:16

      Mm-hmm

   9. DKDara Khosrowshahi11:16

      ... uh, the beliefs are, are beautiful, and so I describe myself more as spiritual, but for me, my belief is in the good of humanity.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath11:27

       At the very core, do you think that is what religion is? Stories, great stories?

   11. DKDara Khosrowshahi11:32

       I think, yeah. Um, y- y- you know, if you, if, if, if you kinda go through the, uh, the, there's an intellectual exercise I, I heard, which is, if, if all of our memory was wiped out-

   12. NKNikhil Kamath11:44

       Yeah

   13. DKDara Khosrowshahi11:45

       ... and you rebuilt religions on Earth, there's a high probability that the nature of those res- r- religions and the stories would be different. If you rebuilt science, the science will come out the same.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath11:59

       Mm.

   15. DKDara Khosrowshahi11:59

       And so I do think that there are deep truths, there are deep human truths to, uh, to religion, and those deep truths are unchanging.... but each religion are definitely different ways of getting to those similar deep truths.

   16. NKNikhil Kamath12:16

       What is spirituality to you? A lot of people ask me if I'm spiritual, and-

   17. DKDara Khosrowshahi12:20

       Yeah.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath12:21

       I'm like, "What is it?" I'm trying to figure out what the word even means to begin with.

   19. DKDara Khosrowshahi12:27

       I think it's a great question. Uh, for me, what spirituality means to me is a belief in the goodness of humanity, a belief in, you know, you and I-

   20. NKNikhil Kamath12:37

       Mm-hmm

   21. DKDara Khosrowshahi12:38

       ... have so little in common in terms of where we came from-

   22. NKNikhil Kamath12:42

       Mm-hmm

   23. DKDara Khosrowshahi12:42

       ... and maybe our, uh, stories, but so much in common. We've sat together in five minutes, and there's a connection there.

   24. NKNikhil Kamath12:50

       Mm-hmm.

   25. DKDara Khosrowshahi12:51

       Uh, and I don't think that connection is because of a logical construct, that I'm here to speak to you on a podcast that are... You know, like, I'm not faking it.

   26. NKNikhil Kamath13:02

       Mm-hmm.

   27. DKDara Khosrowshahi13:02

       Right? There's a connection that we're establishing now, having this discussion. That, to me, is a spiritual connection. It's not a logical construct. You know, you're not being nice to me because you think you have to be, and vice versa.

   28. NKNikhil Kamath13:16

       Mm-hmm.

   29. DKDara Khosrowshahi13:16

       Um, instantly, you have that rapport, and sometimes, by the way, you don't with some- certain people.

   30. NKNikhil Kamath13:20

       Mm-hmm.
6. 16:40 – 19:54

   From Iran to US

   1. NKNikhil Kamath16:40

      So nine, y- year nine, you move here again?

   2. DKDara Khosrowshahi16:42

      Yeah, so we had, uh, the Iranian, the revolution happened-

   3. NKNikhil Kamath16:45

      Yeah

   4. DKDara Khosrowshahi16:45

      ... the Islamic Revolution happened. Um, little story, which is, uh, we, we were intending to stay at one point, but then I think the, the house across the street from us was related to the Shah somehow, so some revolutionary guards jumped, wanted to go attack that house, and they-

   5. NKNikhil Kamath17:04

      Mm

   6. DKDara Khosrowshahi17:04

      ... jumped over, went through our, uh, garden. Um, I think their guns went off, so shots went off, so bullets came through our house, and at that point, my mom said, "We're getting out of here."

   7. NKNikhil Kamath17:15

      Wow.

   8. DKDara Khosrowshahi17:16

      Uh, so we went to the South of France. We were a wealthy family. We had a place there, and really, the intent was to go to, to the South of France until things calmed down.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath17:25

      Mm-hmm.

   10. DKDara Khosrowshahi17:25

       Well, things never calmed down.

   11. NKNikhil Kamath17:26

       Mm.

   12. DKDara Khosrowshahi17:27

       Uh, we happened to have an uncle who's still alive now. He's 101 years old, Uncle Nasrollah, who, uh, lived in the US. He'd married a, a Faith, um, a, uh, an American woman. Wonderful, wonderful, uh, auntie, and so we came to the US to stay with them, and then we knew we could never go back.

   13. NKNikhil Kamath17:49

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DKDara Khosrowshahi17:49

       Uh, and we started a, a life here, so I've been in the US ever since I was nine years old.

   15. NKNikhil Kamath17:56

       Iranians are quite wealthy. Whenever I go to... I realize this when I go to Beverly Hills-

   16. DKDara Khosrowshahi18:03

       [laughing]

   17. NKNikhil Kamath18:03

       ... and everybody's Iranian. Why is that?

   18. DKDara Khosrowshahi18:05

       Uh, well, I think the Iranians who were wealthy got to go, uh, got to leave.

   19. NKNikhil Kamath18:09

       Mm.

   20. DKDara Khosrowshahi18:10

       ... uh, and, you know, Iranians there were a pretty entrepreneurial culture.

   21. NKNikhil Kamath18:15

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DKDara Khosrowshahi18:16

       And a lot of Iranians invested in real estate. You know, we came here in the, uh, late 1970s, '80s, and it was a good time to come to America and establish yourself and get into business in the US. Uh, and, and my family did the same, my family did the same. But, uh, the, it, it was really for the kids... I was only nine years old. I, I think children are able to adjust to change much more readily.

   23. NKNikhil Kamath18:39

       Right.

   24. DKDara Khosrowshahi18:40

       You know, for us, like, America was this magic, uh, country where I went from, like, three channels in Iran to thirty-five channels, cable.

   25. NKNikhil Kamath18:47

       Mm-hmm.

   26. DKDara Khosrowshahi18:48

       I couldn't understand the language very well, but we adjusted really well, and-

   27. NKNikhil Kamath18:52

       Mm

   28. DKDara Khosrowshahi18:52

       ... and we always had our family around us. But it was much harder for my parents. You know, my, my father, his whole life was business.

   29. NKNikhil Kamath19:01

       Mm-hmm.

   30. DKDara Khosrowshahi19:02

       And he, he took a shot at some entrepreneurial businesses. They didn't work out very well, and without work, he kind of, um, didn't have a, a, a cause in his life. Um, he went back to Iran 'cause his father was dying, so I didn't see him, I think, between the ages of 13 and 19, 'cause they wouldn't let him out of the country for those six years. Um, and my mom, who lived a life of absolute luxury, had to go back to work. She worked as a salesperson, uh, at Nordstrom, Celine, and, you know, it, it was a very, very difficult adjustment for them. But for the kids, we always had family, we got to go to private school, and we got to have the kind of education that then afforded us the opportunities that we've taken advantage of, of since.
7. 19:54 – 28:05

   Key lesson from Barry Diller

   1. NKNikhil Kamath19:54

      school here. Where in America?

   2. DKDara Khosrowshahi19:56

      Uh, in Westchester County, New York, about, uh, an hour of New York, at a wonderful school called Hackley School.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath20:02

      Mm-hmm.

   4. DKDara Khosrowshahi20:02

      And then I went to, uh, Brown University and studied engineering-

   5. NKNikhil Kamath20:06

      Mm

   6. DKDara Khosrowshahi20:06

      ... at Brown University. Uh, and then I was going to an engineering management program, and I met a, uh, commodity trader, a woman in New York City who I completely fell in love with, and I had to find a job in New York City, and the only jobs available in New York City-

   7. NKNikhil Kamath20:22

      Right

   8. DKDara Khosrowshahi20:23

      ... were investment banking jobs.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath20:24

      Mm-hmm.

   10. DKDara Khosrowshahi20:24

       And so that's how I got to Allen & Company-

   11. NKNikhil Kamath20:26

       Mm

   12. DKDara Khosrowshahi20:26

       ... that you just talked about. And I worked at Allen & Company for, I think it was, like, eight years or so.

   13. NKNikhil Kamath20:32

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DKDara Khosrowshahi20:32

       Um, and one of my clients there was a gentleman named Barry Diller-

   15. NKNikhil Kamath20:38

       Mm-hmm

   16. DKDara Khosrowshahi20:39

       ... uh, who's this legendary, um, uh, figure in media and, and then, uh, very much in, i- within the internet. And I- he was a client of mine, and I remember, like, my intention was to stay at Allen & Company forever.

   17. NKNikhil Kamath20:56

       Mm.

   18. DKDara Khosrowshahi20:56

       It is a great family-run business. Uh, really look out for your clients, you know?

   19. NKNikhil Kamath21:01

       Yeah.

   20. DKDara Khosrowshahi21:01

       It's not the kind of investment bank that's looking for fees. They want to help you build a business. So I thought I was gonna be there forever, but then I saw Barry, and I say, "If, if, if I ever get a chance to work for that guy-

   21. NKNikhil Kamath21:12

       Mm-hmm

   22. DKDara Khosrowshahi21:13

       ... I'll take it in a second."

   23. NKNikhil Kamath21:14

       Why was that? Why was Barry... Was Barry interesting or Expedia interesting?

   24. DKDara Khosrowshahi21:19

       Um, i- this was before Expedia. It, it was all Barry. He was, um... Every time he came into a room-

   25. NKNikhil Kamath21:29

       Mm

   26. DKDara Khosrowshahi21:29

       ... the whole room would light up.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath21:30

       Mm.

   28. DKDara Khosrowshahi21:31

       Uh, it just, the, the energy that he carried with him was extraordinary. And I'll tell you a little story of, of, of when we met, um, and it's a lesson that I learned in, in, in business, was that he, uh, he was bidding for, uh... He, he was running a company called QVC, which was-

   29. NKNikhil Kamath21:49

       Mm-hmm

   30. DKDara Khosrowshahi21:49

       ... home shopping, bidding for Paramount, which was the, uh, the company that he, he used to run. So it was like his coming home, uh, and I was the little crappy analyst who was running his, his deal model.
8. 28:05 – 32:12

   How AI can reinvent travel

   1. NKNikhil Kamath28:05

      How does travel change next, Dara? I think it's an industry which has stagnated a bit in terms of-

   2. DKDara Khosrowshahi28:10

      Yeah

   3. NKNikhil Kamath28:11

      ... how one books. At least my experience online of booking a ticket, a hotel, hasn't changed that much in the last few years.

   4. DKDara Khosrowshahi28:20

      Yeah, I, I don't think that the travel industry has in- innovated that much. I, I think you're exactly right, and it frustrates me.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath28:26

      Mm.

   6. DKDara Khosrowshahi28:26

      You know, which is like, what, it, it, the booking experience looks quite similar. I think one obvious answer is the agentic experience, which is, can you actually get AI f- agents or, um, uh, LM agents to book the travel for you, to, to go to the various sites and compare-

   7. NKNikhil Kamath28:46

      Mm-hmm

   8. DKDara Khosrowshahi28:47

      ... uh, compare, uh, prices, et cetera, a- and book for you? So I think that part of the travel booking experience can be easier, having agents work for you. I think that the discovery part of the travel experience can get much, much better. This is, I think, one area where LMS today-

   9. NKNikhil Kamath29:08

      Mm-hmm

   10. DKDara Khosrowshahi29:08

       ... shine because if you thought in the, again, probably ten years ago, I wanna go someplace over the summer, how you would figure out where to go, it would be you would maybe read a magazine or go online or talk to friends, or you heard about something. The way to gather information or go to Google, which I think can be quite frustrating, you know, luxury vacation in Europe, like, the, the results you get are trash, in my opinion. Um, uh, with LLMs now, actually, their ability to gather the information and bring you unexpected results, et cetera, I think travel discovery is gonna get much, much better-

   11. NKNikhil Kamath29:48

       Mm-hmm

   12. DKDara Khosrowshahi29:48

       ... and is much better today.

   13. NKNikhil Kamath29:50

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DKDara Khosrowshahi29:51

       Um, travel booking, I think agents can help you as well, and then I think one area that I think Uber is really good at that I think the experience can improve significantly is your in-market experience. You know, why is it that when you land and you take the Uber to the, to your hotel, you even need to check in, right?... we should, we have your phone, we know where you are, come into the room, you know, you're, why can't it be you're in room, uh, you know, thirty, thirty-one E, and just go up there? You're already checked in, and go in. You know, why do I need to sit there and, you know, have the perfectly nice person ask me if I had a nice flight?

   15. NKNikhil Kamath30:33

       Mm-hmm.

   16. DKDara Khosrowshahi30:34

       And, you know, here's my room, et cetera. I think the in-market experience is something that hasn't been innovated on at all, and is something that could improve as well.

   17. NKNikhil Kamath30:45

       Yeah, I'm able to today discover... Say I'm coming to San Francisco.

   18. DKDara Khosrowshahi30:48

       Yes.

   19. NKNikhil Kamath30:50

       And I wanna figure out which hotel suits my needs. I can enter my taste each time, and an agent will recommend something. But is there one place where I don't have to think and an agent can do everything? I don't think there's one solve for it today.

   20. DKDara Khosrowshahi31:06

       No, no. I, I, and, and there definitely isn't one place today. I, I do think the cost of a bad decision in travel is very high.

   21. NKNikhil Kamath31:20

       Yeah.

   22. DKDara Khosrowshahi31:21

       So I don't think you're gonna get to a place, and I'm certainly not gonna get to a place, where I tell an agent to find me a hotel in San Francisco and just book it-

   23. NKNikhil Kamath31:30

       Mm-hmm.

   24. DKDara Khosrowshahi31:30

       - and then, you know, on the day when I arrive there, I'm like, "Where am I going?"

   25. NKNikhil Kamath31:33

       Yeah.

   26. DKDara Khosrowshahi31:33

       Um, but I think agents can do a great job of, of reducing, you know, that list that on Expedia, you look at the fifty hotels, and then you're filtering for, you know, maybe where you're looking or the class of hotels. Um, it, it can collate, it can give you the three hotels that you're most likely to like based on your historical experiences. So I think there's this in-between space, and I think agents can do a great job in that in-between space. But I think that final decision, at least for me, is gonna be up to you. But that collation, that kind of bringing everything together, that's a-- That could be a very, very high utility.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath32:11

       If you

9. 32:12 – 34:50

   Dara’s vision for fixing travel

   1. NKNikhil Kamath32:12

      had an idea to build something around travel-

   2. DKDara Khosrowshahi32:14

      Mm-hmm.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath32:15

      - sitting on the board of Expedia and running Uber at the same time, where do you build what?

   4. DKDara Khosrowshahi32:20

      [chuckles] Um, I think I would build... I, I would not go after the... I-

   5. NKNikhil Kamath32:30

      Mm-hmm

   6. DKDara Khosrowshahi32:30

      ... would not go after the inspiration side. Because I think the inspiration side, thank you very much, is, is gonna be served really, really well by an OpenAI or a Google. They're collecting all the information. They're gonna have lots of context about-

   7. NKNikhil Kamath32:46

      Mm-hmm

   8. DKDara Khosrowshahi32:46

      ... who you and I are. And, and the way people get inspired, it's so, um, disperse-

   9. NKNikhil Kamath32:53

      Right

   10. DKDara Khosrowshahi32:53

       ... that it's gonna be very difficult for you to build one service that, let's say, services seventy percent of your inspiration. And, and I really do think that Google, OpenAI, other LLMs are, are going to just get better and better here. But I think the agentic search, booking experience, and then in-market experience, to make it a very smooth handoff from one experience to the other, I think that's something that I would focus on, you know, with my Expedia and Uber hat on at the same time.

   11. NKNikhil Kamath33:30

       Something interesting to build, though.

   12. DKDara Khosrowshahi33:31

       Yeah, definitely.

   13. NKNikhil Kamath33:31

       I feel like a lot of opportunity here.

   14. DKDara Khosrowshahi33:33

       Yeah.

   15. NKNikhil Kamath33:33

       It's not solved for at all.

   16. DKDara Khosrowshahi33:35

       Someone's gonna get it right, and I, I do think one challenge in terms of how the industry is constructed right now is that the OTAs, the Booking.coms, the Expedias of the world, they have-- They are very self-interested in making sure that you book within their, um, their supply base.

   17. NKNikhil Kamath33:55

       Mm-hmm.

   18. DKDara Khosrowshahi33:56

       Uh, and at the same time, outside of that supply base, you know, they're organizing a ton of content, prices, et cetera, features and information, so there's utility in that.

   19. NKNikhil Kamath34:05

       Mm-hmm.

   20. DKDara Khosrowshahi34:05

       The ultimate solution is gonna be an agent that can sit above it all and can kind of scour the internet and scour all the booking services, and then surface the results, which may be a mix and match of all of them, for you based on your tastes. So I don't know, actually, and I hope it's Expedia, 'cause I'm on the board, and I love the company. I hope it'll be Expedia who puts it all together.

   21. NKNikhil Kamath34:28

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DKDara Khosrowshahi34:29

       But there could be kind of an, an umbrella agent who is truly representing your interests versus Expedia's interests. Now, if Expedia does a great job, they will maybe expand, or they will, you know, over a period of time, amalgamate all the content on the, on the web, so all the travel content on the web, booking content on the web, so that super agent doesn't add much value.

10. 34:50 – 36:48

    Decoding taste from data

    1. NKNikhil Kamath34:50

       When you have an umbrella agent, soon you'll have another, and then another.

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi34:54

       Yeah.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath34:55

       So will it come down to who is able to extrapolate your taste? And can someone's taste be deciphered from past data, you think?

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi35:09

       I, I think it's gonna be a combination of past data. Um, I think that you want an, you want an agent that will do some exploration for you.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath35:17

       Mm-hmm.

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi35:17

       You know, so for example, when, um, we are showing you the restaurants that you're likely to want to pick on Uber Eats, if all we show you is the mo- is the ones that you're most likely to, or based on what you've done in the past, then we're missing that surprise, we're missing that explore. So you want an agent that's a combination of explore and exploit.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath35:36

       Mm-hmm.

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi35:37

       Um, I think that's gonna be... So I don't think it's just gonna be on your past taste, but it'll be com- putting your past taste with other people who look like you, and then surprising you with some new choices as well. I think that's ultimately gonna be the winner.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath35:51

       Ultimately, so much will come down to taste, right? In this world.

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi35:55

        Uh, well, listen, taste, convenience, price.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath35:58

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi35:58

        Right? I mean, you and I may be lucky enough where taste is-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath36:01

        Mm-hmm

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi36:02

        ... the overriding factor, but there may be context for you, right?

    15. NKNikhil Kamath36:05

        Mm-hmm.

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi36:05

        If, if you're, um, coming to San Francisco and it's midweek, you may want a cheap, decent place close to the Uber offices.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath36:16

        Mm.

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi36:16

        Right? And that's a different context-... than if you are going to go to Napa for the weekend-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath36:23

        Mm-hmm.

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi36:24

        -where you want an experience either for yourself, or yourself and friends, or loved ones. So I do think that it's not as simple in terms of taste. It's based on the context of what the, what, what your, um, what you're solving for, you know, your objective function. And your objective function's gonna change, uh, based on the context of what the goal of that trip is.

11. 36:48 – 38:48

    What Uber really represents

    1. NKNikhil Kamath36:48

       So Dara, I was trying to define what Uber is today.

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi36:51

       [chuckles]

    3. NKNikhil Kamath36:51

       You mentioned Barry and Match.com.

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi36:54

       Yeah.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath36:55

       Are you Match.com in a different way?

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi36:56

       [laughing] Yeah, I mean, to some extent. We're bringing, uh, obviously, riders and drivers together, and we're trying to meet- match eaters with, uh, our restaurant partners with a courier. So there is some of that. But listen, I think one way that I think about it from a consumer s- standpoint... Y- you know, Uber is a different thing to Uber, to, to different people. For the consumer, I really want Uber to be like that operating system for your everyday life. You know-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath37:25

       Mm-hmm.

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi37:26

       ... we make your everyday life a little bit easier. We give you a little bit of time and convenience back in terms of where you wanna go, um, what you wanna eat, more and more what you want, right? If you want that iPhone, same day, we'll do that for you. Uh, for our driver and courier partners, we are a source of, of, of work, uh, and a source of earnings based on your own needs. Now, you know, and, and, and you're, you're gonna balance your needs based on the commercial objectives as well. If your need is that, "I don't wanna give rides at 2:00 AM in the morning"-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath38:02

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi38:02

        -you may not make much money.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath38:03

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi38:03

        So there's a combination of, you know, the marketplace combines what, when you wanna work with comm- with the realities of the commercial objectives. Hey, 9:00 PM Friday night, you may not wanna work, but it's a great time to work-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath38:16

        Mm-hmm

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi38:16

        ... in San Francisco. And then for our restaurant partners, you know, we're a trusted partner in bringing a source of demand in terms of, uh, delivery, and now retail and groceries. That's only gonna grow. You know, what we see is the convenience that we offer in terms of, uh, delivery of starting food. Now, but everything, that convenience is absolutely dynamite. It's pe- it's something that people want all over the world, and as they experience it, more and more people want it.

12. 38:48 – 42:10

    Selling Uber Eats to Zomato

    1. NKNikhil Kamath38:48

       This is funny, but I was... I got in last evening.

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi38:51

       Hope you took an Uber.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath38:52

       [laughing] No, I have a driver here. But, uh, I wanted a adapter.

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi38:59

       Mm-hmm.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath39:00

       I'm, I'm using a lap- I'm using a couple of laptops which have India plug points.

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi39:03

       Sure.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath39:04

       And I needed a travel adapter, and at 8:30 PM, I was trying to, like, ideate. My hotel didn't have one.

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi39:12

       Sure.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath39:13

       Uh, Target, Best Buy shuts down at 8:00 PM. Uh, Walgreens had one store which was open up until 10:00 PM.

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi39:22

        [laughing]

    11. NKNikhil Kamath39:23

        I tried to download Instacart on my phone, which said I couldn't do it unless I have a US number.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi39:30

        Oh, yeah, sure.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath39:31

        Yeah. So-

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi39:31

        Did you try Eats?

    15. NKNikhil Kamath39:33

        Does Uber Eats have travel adapters?

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi39:35

        Yes.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath39:36

        Yeah?

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi39:36

        Yes, definitely.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath39:37

        And can I have an international number? [laughing]

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi39:38

        That's one of... That's one of the issues with actually the name, right?

    21. NKNikhil Kamath39:41

        Right.

    22. DKDara Khosrowshahi39:41

        When we got out of, um... When we wanted to expand from food to grocery and other items, we actually tested, is Uber Eats the right name with consumers? And we found that consumers thought that it would carry, you know. Like, it's-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath39:55

        Mm.

    24. DKDara Khosrowshahi39:55

        And you've seen a lot of our branding. Well, you may not have seen it-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath39:59

        [laughing]

    26. DKDara Khosrowshahi39:59

        - 'cause in India, we don't have Uber Eats, unfortunately. It breaks my heart.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath40:02

        You sold it in 2020, right?

    28. DKDara Khosrowshahi40:04

        Uh, yes, yes.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath40:05

        Mm.

    30. DKDara Khosrowshahi40:05

        Uh, we partnered, um, there. We, we didn't think we could win in India, and we wanted to really focus on mobility.
13. 42:10 – 44:32

    Opportunities in mobility, delivery & quick commerce

    1. NKNikhil Kamath42:10

       So Uber is about 57% mobility, 30% delivery. Uh, for today, I'm gonna ig- ignore freight, because I think it's growing at the lowest pace as well. [laughing]

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi42:19

       It shouldn't, but still, I get it. Yes.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath42:21

       ... Uh, and I'm gonna be a twenty-year-old boy or girl-

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi42:25

       Mm-hmm.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath42:25

       -in India trying to build a business in either mobility, delivery, quick commerce, and maybe we get advice from Dara as to what to build and what the opportunities are.

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi42:33

       Ah, that's a... Well, first I'd say, "Don't try to build anything against Uber 'cause we'll kick your ass."

    7. NKNikhil Kamath42:39

       And you can buy us later. [laughing]

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi42:41

       [laughing]

    9. NKNikhil Kamath42:42

       How, how big are network effects?

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi42:45

        Yeah.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath42:45

        Because you're already in so many markets and so big, I'm guessing it's very hard to service a customer who wants to hire a Uber at 3:00 AM and 3:00, 3:00 AM and 6:00 PM.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi42:56

        Yeah.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath42:57

        Unless you have network-- Yeah.

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi42:59

        The, the network effects are very, very significant. Now, a- and so I do think that to invest in and build the required liquidity on both sides of the market is gonna be very, very difficult. Now, the network effects, to some extent, can be local, right? So the, the liquidity that we have in Bangalore may be different from the liquidity that we have in Hyderabad.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath43:25

        Mm-hmm.

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi43:25

        So I do think that there's an opportunity, and maybe Rapido took advantage of that opportunity, of building out services in smaller cities and then building out liquidity in a way that's not quite as expensive. 'Cause you're not trying to take on all of India, but go city by city by city, and then get into larger cities. Um, they started with, I think, two-wheelers and three-wheelers. They're trying to get into autos, et cetera. So I think if you find a niche where you believe that you can build liquid supply and demand on a local basis, and then you can rinse and repeat that over and over again, it's essentially what Travis did when-- with Uber when he founded it.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath44:03

        Mm-hmm.

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi44:04

        That is something that could work. Uh, and if you get large enough, maybe then... And it might be a different segment, let's say intercity, for example, or some other segment that isn't particularly well-served by the Ubers of the world or the Zomatos of the world or some of the other players, then maybe that you can build something that could either compete with them or could be bought by them.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath44:28

        That's an interesting insight. Uh,

14. 44:32 – 49:26

    Authenticity & collaboration

    1. NKNikhil Kamath44:32

       I've watched a bunch of your interviews, and-

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi44:34

       I'm sorry. [chuckles]

    3. NKNikhil Kamath44:35

       [chuckles] No, they were actually really nice.

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi44:37

       Thank you.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath44:38

       Uh, Travis, they say that in, in society today, as a leader, you're either awe-inspiring, dogmatic, uh, or you're somebody who builds consensus, is more relatable, per se.

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi44:52

       Mm-hmm.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath44:54

       Have you had to project a more relatable image 'cause you have to overcompensate for what Travis was projecting?

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi45:05

       I-- One, one thing that I really believe in is, um, I don't think it works if you're trying to be someone other than who you are. You know, people come to me, and they, they ask me for leadership ad-advice. And the first piece of advice that I give them is: Be true to yourself. Because the minute you're not true to yourself, people will smell that a mile off if you're not authentic. You know, this is a word that people mean authentic, et cetera. What does it mean? It's just like, be true to who you are. I am, uh, the youngest brother of a really big family.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath45:40

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi45:40

        We have, like, thousands of cousins around.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath45:43

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi45:44

        And in Iran, community and family is so important.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath45:48

        Mm-hmm.

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi45:48

        Nobody's the star, and if you're the star, you're gonna be put in your place. You know, I'm a fancy, fancy CEO-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath45:54

        Mm-hmm

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi45:54

        ... here, uh, but when I go to my family-

    17. NKNikhil Kamath45:58

        Mm-hmm

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi45:58

        ... I'm just one of the younger cousins, and I'm no big deal, and I love it. It's such a relief to be that person who I've just-- That's my comfort zone. So I tend to be more collaborative. You know, I, I-- When I played sports, I, I would play defense.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath46:17

        Mm-hmm.

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi46:18

        I always played team sports. I didn't want to win as an individual. I loved the feeling of winning as a team. I, I... You know, I don't want to be there celebrating by myself. I want to celebrate with my team.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath46:27

        Right.

    22. DKDara Khosrowshahi46:28

        So that is who I am, and maybe that's one of the reasons why I, I wound up here, uh, here. And actually, my challenge as a leader-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath46:37

        Mm-hmm

    24. DKDara Khosrowshahi46:37

        ... is to get out of that collaborative mode sometimes and to really drive. And, for example, I'll give you a little story, and it's a funny story, but [chuckles] it just taught me a lot. Um, we were, uh, during COVID-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath46:51

        Mm-hmm

    26. DKDara Khosrowshahi46:52

        ... And the US COVID was devastating to our business. Mobility was ninety percent of our business, and by far, you know, the profitable piece of the business, and overnight we lost eighty, eighty-five percent of, of our volume. Couldn't be worse, and, and we went from-- We were already losing two billion a year. We went from losing two billion a year to, like, losing four billion a year. It was a disaster. And it became very clear that we had to, um, undergo layoffs.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath47:17

        Mm-hmm.

    28. DKDara Khosrowshahi47:17

        Not a fun time. I never thought I'd come to Uber to-

    29. NKNikhil Kamath47:19

        Mm-hmm

    30. DKDara Khosrowshahi47:20

        ... to lay off thousands of people. And me being me, I was, um, talking to my team: "What do you think we should do? What are the levels? Where should we..." I didn't want to do a peanut butter kind of a layoff, et cetera. I wanted to be focused, and I would do meeting after meeting after meeting with my team 'cause I wanted them all included, and I wanted to hear what they had to say. And Nelson Chai, uh, my CFO at the time, he-- we were talking, and he's like, "Dara, you know, um, we have a lot of respect for you, and you're a really good person.
15. 49:26 – 53:29

    David vs. Goliath: Uber’s image strategy

    1. NKNikhil Kamath49:26

       I've been noticing, I might be wrong in this, in a David vs Goliath world, David seems to have started winning quite often, uh, which kinda doesn't make sense because we are largely a trust deficit planet.

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi49:42

       [chuckles]

    3. NKNikhil Kamath49:43

       But a lot of people I know, I think it's weirdly correlated to affluence, want to pick the smaller guy-

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi49:50

       Sure.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath49:51

       -the smaller brand, uh, individuals over corporations.

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi49:56

       Mm, mm.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath49:58

       In such a world, I get that relatable makes a lot more sense than awe-inspiring dogmatic, but how does a company like Uber, which is, uh, forty-plus billion in revenue and millions of rides and employees and all of that, how do you evolve to project the David-

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi50:17

       [laughing]

    9. NKNikhil Kamath50:18

       ... image while you already have all of this?

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi50:22

        I, I do think that there is-- First of all, I feel like David when, you know, we're competing in a technology world of trillion-dollar-plus companies, right? So while we may be a larger company, um, I don't feel like we're a big company at Uber. Uh, we've done well as a company, but, like, I think there's so much more that we can do, so I see our shortcomings much more than our accomplishments. And I think that there is, um-- it's part of the culture of the company, which is not to overestimate ourselves and, and to act like a, like a disruptor, et cetera. Now-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath51:02

        Do you do that consciously, project vulnerability?

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi51:04

        Um... [exhaling]

    13. NKNikhil Kamath51:06

        Goliath doesn't look like-

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi51:07

        I, I think, I think it's kind of who I am.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath51:09

        Yeah.

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi51:09

        It, it goes back to my family. There's, there's a-- My father was, like, a really modest person.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath51:14

        Mm-hmm.

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi51:15

        And he would-- The minute I kinda thought I was hot shit, I don't know if I'm allowed to say that-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath51:22

        [chuckles]

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi51:23

        ... you know, he, he'd put me, you know, he, he would just throw me in my, in my place. So-

    21. NKNikhil Kamath51:28

        Mm-hmm

    22. DKDara Khosrowshahi51:28

        ... I think part of it is who I am. I think part of it is, is where Uber came from. Remember, like, we, we were the upstarts. Like, this, this company wouldn't exist-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath51:37

        Mm-hmm

    24. DKDara Khosrowshahi51:37

        ... if we weren't challenging the, the, the status quo, and-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath51:41

        But how do you continue to look like the upstart tomorrow if the world picks David?

    26. DKDara Khosrowshahi51:45

        I hope so. Now, now, I would tell you that internally, I do f- we are upstarts, and, and I wanna have that upstart mentality here. We do have to recognize the power that we have, and I do think that's a mistake that Uber made early on, which is we had to fight for our lives, but then at some point, you know, we did get large. We had incredible impact in the cities in which we operated with- in, and, and that does come with, with-- That does come with responsibility. And so I do think there's, there's this weird kind of dualism about our identity-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath52:25

        Mm-hmm

    28. DKDara Khosrowshahi52:26

        ... which is internally we want to feel like upstarts all the time. Like, every single day, we're fighting for our lives. Um, we, we, we hire from a lot of big tech companies, and we say, like: "Come here. You're gonna work your ass off. You'll probably make a little bit less money, but you're gonna, like-- The work that you do can truly..." A- an individual engineer at Uber can have huge effect across the company, and that, that is really cool.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath52:52

        Mm.

    30. DKDara Khosrowshahi52:53

        And at the same time, the effect that you have on the company also has an effect on society, too, 'cause we are big. And so there's this dualism that you have to keep within Uber, which is within these walls, we're gonna act like a start-up, but outside of the walls and discussions we have with regulators and discussions that we have with our drivers, our couriers, our restaurants, recognize we're a big company, and that does come with responsibility. Um, and it means that just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

16. 53:29 – 55:59

    Team rivalry: strategy or risk?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath53:29

       This is some advice I want personally. Uh, at some point, Uber had different teams attacking different cities-

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi53:37

       Yes

    3. NKNikhil Kamath53:37

       ... for market share, and these teams almost competed with each other, and net-net, it seemed to work well for Uber.

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi53:45

       Mm-hmm.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath53:46

       I tend to do this very organically with people I have. I don't know if it's good in the long run or bad, but I-

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi53:51

       Yeah

    7. NKNikhil Kamath53:51

       ... make them compete with each other.

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi53:53

       Sure.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath53:53

       What have you learnt? Does it work?

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi53:55

        Um, it works as a growth tactic, but it doesn't scale. So to some extent, what you wanna do is you wanna have these humans and teams compete against each other to hack your way into the best solution possible.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath54:15

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi54:16

        Then, after they get to that best solution possible, you then have to come in and automate that solution, you know, through algos, through engineering, et cetera, and then what was the frontier becomes a part of the core.... and then you move to the next frontier. So that's kind of the design spec that we have. You know, the, the team is actually very, very entrepreneurial. You know, a lot, like we-- Uber Teens, to some extent, was an amalgamation of a bunch of technologies that we built, and our CPO, Sachin, who kinda had-- he's like, he was obsessed with that idea. He's like: "Well, we have a bunch of safety functionality here. We can put together teens with our safest drivers. We have tracking functionality here. I'm gonna put this whole thing together and hack together what you call this teen solution." And you hack it, you move quickly, you see if there's product market fit, and then once you see the signal that there's product market fit, you do have to systematize it. Because if you don't systematize it, you can't scale. So you have to have both muscles within the organization.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath55:21

        But it's a good way to discover something fast.

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi55:23

        Totally! You, you don't want it... Like, it, that, that, the, the signal-- We don't do this anymore-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath55:29

        Mm-hmm.

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi55:29

        -but at, at Expedia in the olden days, you know, we, like, put a button-

    17. NKNikhil Kamath55:33

        Mm-hmm

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi55:34

        ... um, on the website just to see if there's demand for that button, and someone, you know, would click it.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath55:38

        Mm-hmm.

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi55:38

        They'd be like: "Oh, I'm sorry, it's not working right now." And we're just doing it to collect signal. You know, that's, that's the biggest hack possible, right?

    21. NKNikhil Kamath55:44

        Mm-hmm.

    22. DKDara Khosrowshahi55:44

        Um, so, so... And then once you see that product market fit, you gotta, you gotta build behind it. And some companies make the mistake of not building behind it, and you can get away with it for a while, but at some point the system falls apart.

17. 55:59 – 57:24

    DoorDash vs. Uber

    1. NKNikhil Kamath55:59

       When you speak about DoorDash or when you, when you spoke about, uh, Zomato right now-

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi56:04

       Mm-hmm.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath56:04

       -you complimented them, praised them. Uh, I heard you on a interview speaking about how DoorDash went after the suburbs, and you guys missed out.

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi56:13

       Yeah.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath56:13

       You praising competition, is that a way to appear more David in a David vs Goliath world again? [chuckles]

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi56:24

       I- I- it's not... It- it's not a-- It's not an act.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath56:28

       Right.

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi56:28

       Um, I think DoorDash is a really great company.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath56:33

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi56:33

        I don't like them-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath56:34

        Yeah

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi56:35

        ... but they make us better. Uh, and they're a worthy competitor, global competitor. Uh, they're beating us right now in the US, but not for long.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath56:44

        Mm-hmm.

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi56:44

        And we're beating them outside the US, and the two companies going against each other makes both companies better and actually builds a better service for consumers and couriers and restaurants all over the world. Um, I, I think, you know, the, the humility that we talked about before, I think that actually creates a strength because you're curious. You're not overconfident.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath57:07

        Yeah.

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi57:07

        You don't think like you're the best in the world. You're curious about what others are doing. Um, and for me, it motivates me and drives me to be better. You know, if I say DoorDash is a, is a good competitor, and they are a good competitor, that's motivation for me and my team to be better.

18. 57:24 – 58:31

    Why India matters to Uber

    1. NKNikhil Kamath57:24

       You said outside US, you're beating them, and they're beating you here. Does India as a-

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi57:29

       Not for long, though [laughs]

    3. NKNikhil Kamath57:31

       [laughs] Does India as a market matter, Dara? You once observed when you were there that Indians are very demanding, and they don't want to pay for anything.

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi57:39

       [laughs] Yeah, that, that comment cost me.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath57:42

       [laughs]

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi57:43

       It, um, it, it matters hugely for us.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath57:45

       Yeah.

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi57:46

       Right? Uh, it's-- India is now our third-largest market in terms of mobility trips.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath57:51

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi57:52

        Uh, we've got, I think, over one point four million now drivers, auto, you know, two-wheelers, three-wheelers, and, and four-wheelers in India. Uh, the growth there is spectacular. I think India is already one of the great countries in the world, but if you look at it as a share of GDP, it's only going to increase.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath58:11

        Mm.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi58:12

        Uh, the leadership there is amazing, and, and so much of our talent pool, not just in India, but all over the world, comes from Indian descent as well. So India is, you know, it is a absolute must-win for Uber, not just tomorrow, but ten years from now.

19. 58:31 – 1:01:50

    Opportunity vs. TAM

    1. NKNikhil Kamath58:31

       I'm going to go back to being a twenty-year-old who's starting a business in this industry.

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi58:37

       You know, I'd say don't start one in, in this industry.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath58:39

       [laughs]

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi58:39

       Go, go try something else.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath58:40

       [laughs] How do I recognize the opportunity versus TAM, like the total addressable market?

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi58:48

       Yeah.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath58:48

       Like, if I want to start quick commerce in India, and the cost of delivery is, say, twenty rupees or thirty rupees or fifty rupees. If the total addressable market that can afford a product like that in India be twenty million people or fifty million people, where is the number, right? A lot of the spend, a lot of consumption in India is still going towards groceries-

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi59:14

       Mm

    9. NKNikhil Kamath59:14

       ... as much as fifty, sixty percent. So how do I justify to myself that my business idea is sound, that I'm going to charge fifty rupees a delivery? How many people do I model for? Where does that fit come across geographies?

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi59:29

        I say you're way overthinking it.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath59:31

        Mm.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi59:32

        Um, you know, businesses never... Businesses that succeed are always adapting and adjusting, and adjusting. So what I tell you is, figure out if there's product market fit in that narrow segment, call it the fifty. And by the way, if it's narrow, that's great, because then the big players are probably not gonna come after it. It's a segment where you can add value and a segment where you can own, and then if you establish product market fit and you build a business there, then you can go to the next area, to the next area, to the, to the next area. You know?

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:11

        But if my market size is only twenty million people who can afford it, still build it?

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:00:16

        Build it, as long as there's product market fit in terms of unit economics that makes sense.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:20

        Mm-hmm.

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:00:21

        And once you get to those twenty million people, you're gonna find an adjacency to get into, and then you'll find another adjacency, and you'll find another. But it's-

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:28

        But then I'm competing with people like you, who already are sitting on the network, network effects in that market.

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:00:32

        Yeah, but the, the, the big TAMs are gonna be taken.... So actually, specifically, you should go after the small TAMs-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:38

        Right.

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:00:38

        -and the small opportunities where you can create a network effect without enormous investments, either in technology or development or, or monies. You, you actually specifically should go after the small TAMs and then work your way into the adjacencies over a period of time. I wasn't around, but at the time, you know, the-- when Uber Eats was conceived of, I think it was Jason Droege and Travis, they were, they were, like, driving around a bunch of cars with burritos in the trunk of that car. It was, it was like a manifestation of mobility.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:12

        Mm-hmm.

    22. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:01:13

        Um, a very close manifestation, and you look at where delivery has gone and how large it's become, you know, I don't think they would have ever predicted that.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:23

        Right.

    24. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:01:23

        So you just get one step to the next step to the next step. I don't believe in overthinking TAM. I think TAMs are like, you build those for IR, and you build those to raise money. You may, you may wanna create this wonderful, dramatic TAM to go raise, you know, a couple of million bucks, but that's not what should be processing through your mind. It should be: Can I build a service that has eventually strong unit economics that then I can build on top of?

20. 1:01:50 – 1:05:15

    Why quick commerce hasn’t taken off in the US

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:50

       Quick commerce seems to have sidestepped the US for a long time. I think you went to big box retail, and then you went to another thing altogether.

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:01:57

       Yeah.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:57

       Not necessarily competing on, "I will deliver in six minutes, I will deliver in seven, and I will deliver in eight."

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:02:04

       Mm-hmm.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:05

       Why is that?

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:02:06

       Because the cost of labor in the US is too high. So I, uh, my-- that, that's my take, which is, um, with quick commerce, uh, you can't automate that much because the cost of the automation doesn't bear out in a small box.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:24

       Mm-hmm.

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:02:24

       So you have to use human labor.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:26

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:02:26

        Uh, the co-- and so in markets where the cost of human labor a- is not there, and the concentration of, of customers isn't there-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:37

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:02:37

        -you get a fail, uh, which is, for example, let's say in the US.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:41

        Right.

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:02:41

        Um, you know, I think that Gopuff is making a good run at it.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:44

        Mm-hmm.

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:02:45

        But you look at the development of that market versus, uh, Blinkit or some of the other developing markets, it is absolutely working much, much better in lower-cost labor markets than it is in high-cost labor markets.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:59

        Is there a arbitrage there because your drivers are not essentially employees? Is there a labor cost arbitrage? 'Cause they're gig workers, they run their own cars, they don't need to be paid benefits, insurance.

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:03:13

        Yeah, there's, there's a trade-off there, right? Which is we can't tell our drivers when and when to work, right? So imagine if Starbucks is hiring a barista, they don't go to the barista: "Hey, show up whenever you want to, and, you know, we'll pay you however much a Starbucks barista makes per hour." So you could call it a labor arbitrage. I, I call it a trade-off, which is the driver and the courier can decide when and where they wanna work. That creates cost for us. We then have to build liquidity of, of, of supply and demand, and sometimes we will use incentives and/or algorithms. For example, surge are circumstances when, uh, when demand exceeds supply, and in those cases, we have to actually raise prices for that demand in order to attract enough drivers to get out into the market, to pick out-- to pick up everyone, you know, arriving at seven PM on a Thursday night at the airport or, you know, uh, when, when, uh, the Warriors', uh, game is, is done.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:22

        Right.

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:04:23

        So i- it, it's, it's-- I wouldn't-- It's not an arbitrage mechanism.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:28

        Mm-hmm.

    22. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:04:29

        Um, it is a trade-off that also is an enormous benefit to, uh, certain people who don't wanna work on a schedule, who wanna work less than forty hours a week. You know, seventy percent of our drivers and couriers are working less than twenty hours a week. So i- it is a unique product-market fit that we found. It works for drivers and couriers. It works for us. We have to build very complex systems-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:56

        Mm-hmm

    24. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:04:57

        ... in order to make it work. Um, and I think overall, when you look at society, it's, it's good for society, right? It's a service both for the drivers and for customers th- that works, and, and I think more and more societies are, are appreciating that.

21. 1:05:15 – 1:10:02

    Autonomous vehicles vs. drivers

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:05:15

       You've spoken about autonomous vehicles a bunch of times.

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:05:18

       Yes.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:05:18

       And, uh, I don't know if it'll happen sooner or later than you predict, [chuckles] but-

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:05:24

       Everyone's been wrong so far, so who knows?

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:05:26

       Yeah.

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:05:27

       Well, I mean, the predictions generally of autonomous and when they're-- when it's gonna be ready for market-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:05:32

       Mm-hmm

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:05:33

       ... you know, this is a, this is a problem that, uh, Waymo has been working on probably for fifteen, twenty years.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:05:39

       Yeah.

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:05:39

        Um, and it's proven out to be a much more difficult problem to solve than anyone expected, but finally, it's working now. I mean, the, the Waymo product is spectacular, and there are others building out the products as well.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:05:51

        I was at a junction last evening, and there was a fire truck behind a Waymo.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:05:57

        Interesting.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:05:58

        And I, I didn't-- I couldn't-

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:06:00

        With the sirens on?

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:01

        The sirens were on.

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:06:02

        Ah.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:03

        And the Waymo actually did this interesting maneuver where it went right, stopped there, waited for the fire truck to go. It was incredible.

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:06:12

        Perfect. Yeah, perfect.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:14

        Yeah. What do you think wins, uh, Waymo's tech or Tesla's? Cameras, lidar, radar?

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:06:22

        I personally believe that autonomous vehicles have to have superhuman levels of safety. I don't think it's good enough for them to be-

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:30

        Mm-hmm

    22. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:06:31

        ... better than humans. They have to be multiple times better than humans, and Waymo's certainly proven that that's possible, so why not take that shot?

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:38

        Mm-hmm.

    24. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:06:39

        ... I think in the near term it's going to be very difficult, and Elon would tell me I'm wrong.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:44

        Mm-hmm.

    26. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:06:44

        And never bet against him, but it's my instinct that in the near term it's gonna be very difficult to build a camera-only product that has superhuman levels of safety. And again, now, at some point, will it be possible? Quite possibly, yes. But if you can have, um, instrumentation that includes cameras and lidar, and the cost of lidar, you know, solid-state lidar now is four hundred, five hundred bucks. Why not-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:07:16

        Mm-hmm

    28. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:07:16

        ... include lidar as well in order to achieve superhuman safety? So, possible, yeah, it will be possible. I don't know when, but is the possible the better product? I'm not sure. I would- I- all of our partners, um, that we're working with now are using a combination of, uh, camera, radar, and lidar, and, you know, I personally think that's, that's the right solution, but I could be proven wrong.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:07:44

        What happens to Uber's earners when... If autonomous becomes safer and cheaper-

    30. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:07:52

        Mm-hmm
22. 1:10:02 – 1:12:39

    AVs & Indian roads

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:02

       I was having this debate with a friend of mine back in India, and they were like, "Autonomous for India with the cows and dogs and carts-

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:10:10

       [chuckles]

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:10

       ... and all of that." But when you think about it, if a computer has a reaction time which is faster than a human-

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:10:17

       Yes

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:19

       ... an autonomous vehicle should do better with more arbitrary things like this at play.

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:10:25

       Totally.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:25

       Right?

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:10:25

       I, I, I think it, the, it's just a question of training.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:29

       Mm.

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:10:30

        Um, and if, uh, if autonomous vehicles can figure out New York City traffic, you know, India traffic is harder-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:40

        Mm-hmm

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:10:40

        ... uh, but it's only an issue of training on additional datasets and improving the capabilities there.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:47

        Yeah, and I don't want to be unfair with this question of what happens in twenty years to earners if-

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:10:52

        Yeah

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:52

        ... even if it takes twenty years, because I could extrapolate the same thing for so many industries-

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:10:57

        Absolutely

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:58

        ... where AI will disrupt their jobs in twenty years.

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:11:00

        Yeah, it's a societal issue.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:01

        Yeah, but what happens to society?

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:11:04

        [sighs] What has happened to society repeatedly and repeatedly is that the workforce has adjusted. Over and over again, right?

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:14

        Mm.

    22. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:11:14

        Every single time when, um, more of manufacturing was automated, there's always this drama of, "Oh my God, what happens to the people?" And people figure it out, and people usually then go to higher, uh, value types of labor.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:28

        Mm.

    24. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:11:28

        And, you know, unemployment rate, we-- our world has more automation today than it ever has been, and unemployment rates are at historical lows in most, uh, developed countries. I think the question is whether or not this is a unique time and circumstance where the change is going to happen faster than it ever has before, and based on the rate of technological change there, there's reason to believe that, yeah, maybe this time may happen faster than societies historically have been able to adjust to change. Um, I don't know that yet.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:05

        Mm-hmm.

    26. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:12:06

        Uh, I don't think it's a problem for Uber. It's a problem for... Well, it is a, it is a potential issue for Uber-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:13

        Mm-hmm

    28. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:12:13

        ... and it could be a real problem.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:15

        Mm-hmm.

    30. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:12:15

        Um, but it's a big societal problem that we all have to, have to take on. But there's also opportunity there. You know, how can we educate our workforce and bring to them opportunities that ultimately allow them to live the kinds of life that they, that they want to? Our, you know, kind of building Uber AI Solutions is one small step in that direction, but believe me, we don't have all the answers.

23. 1:12:39 – 1:13:29

    Data challenges

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:39

       Do you suspect, Dara, that you might lose access to data like you have now?... if tomorrow, say, Elon's saying that Tesla will not need Uber or even Waymo, I'm guessing a lot of the data is controlled by the hardware and less by who booked the Waymo.

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:13:00

       Well, I, I think that we actually now have, uh-- we're collecting data using Lucid cars in a bunch of-

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:07

       Yeah

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:13:07

       ... uh, cities as well. So I think for Uber, data's not gonna be a problem. Uh, and we will have data, uh, capture capabilities. We'll work with our partners to capture, uh, data as well, and then provide them to our partners all over the world, and based on the growth that we see, our access to data is only gonna increase.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:27

       Right. Uh,

24. 1:13:29 – 1:17:36

    Cooking automation & the future of dining

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:29

       Travis is doing Ghost Kitchens.

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:13:31

       Yes.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:32

       I watched an interview of his where he was speaking about how this could change how we eat.

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:13:37

       Mm-hmm.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:37

       Any view on that? Do you think that's gonna happen?

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:13:40

       I, I think it's inevitable. Um, I think it'll take time. You know, change in the real world really takes time.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:45

       Mm.

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:13:46

       But I've been super impressed with what Travis has done with Ghost Kitchens, and now he's working on robotics as well-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:52

       Mm-hmm

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:13:52

        ... to automate more of the, of the cooking process.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:56

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:13:56

        And bringing, you know, healthy, natural food to more people with less labor-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:14:02

        Mm-hmm

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:14:02

        ... like, that's really, really cool, and he's a, he's a terrific partner of ours. Like, we work with CloudKitchens all over the world. Um, they're a big partner, and, you know, Travis is a, uh, is an entrepreneur that you should not underestimate.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:14:16

        Any view on what could happen to restaurants, Dara? Like, I know a bunch of them-

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:14:21

        Yeah

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:14:21

        ... large chains back home who constantly complain about the fifteen to thirty percent they end up paying, uh, delivery operators, and they talk about how it's unsustainable. Add to that, you have the data, and you start dark kitchens or what Travis is doing. What happens to an old-school restaurant business?

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:14:43

        Well, I think an old-school restaurant business that can't adjust is gonna suffer. They're gonna lose share.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:14:48

        Mm-hmm.

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:14:48

        And so I think it's, it's the job of the old-school restaurant business to become a new-school restaurant business, right?

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:14:53

        How do they do that?

    22. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:14:54

        Well, I, I think if, if you break down what restaurants do is there's a component which is food-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:15:04

        Mm-hmm

    24. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:15:04

        ... right? Giving you great food that you enjoy.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:15:07

        Mm-hmm.

    26. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:15:07

        And there's another component, which is hospitality-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:15:10

        Right

    28. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:15:10

        ... which is, "Come to this restaurant, and there's an environment that you might enjoy," et cetera. And there's the, there's the mood, there's the romance of a, of a restaurant a- as well. I think that what you will... There, there are certain restaurants where the hospitality part of the offerings, um, is not quite as, is, is not as significant, right?

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:15:34

        Mm-hmm.

    30. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:15:34

        It's, um... McDonald's is more about the food-
25. 1:17:36 – 1:20:27

    Building brands without ads

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:17:36

       you talk about ads on Uber.

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:17:37

       Yes.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:17:38

       And I have found this even with myself, that when I'm searching for something today, I don't use Google anymore. I end up using Perplexity or OpenAI or someone like that.

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:17:49

       Sure.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:17:50

       Uh, if I want to build a brand tomorrow, and I want to market it, and nobody's landing on Google Ads, uh, what happens to the world of ads? How does a brand get built? How do I get the word out that I've started this new T-shirt company?

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:18:07

       Well, I think that those surfaces for a brand to truly get built are there in terms of Instagram and TikTok and, and Facebook, right?

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:18:18

       Mm-hmm.

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:18:19

       So the, the Google Ad world, the Perplexity ad world, et cetera, are built for, um, for searches based on intent, and, and so I think that that medium is about growing brands, not establishing or inventing brands. But I actually think that the surface area for brand-new brands to, um, to, to grow and thrive, it- it's actually greater than, than it ever has been. I'll, I'll tell you a little story of, of my niece.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:18:53

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:18:53

        ... um, Liliana, she, she's incredible. She, she is, studied humanities, loves fashion, loves golf-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:19:02

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:19:02

        -built, um, a-- wanted to build a new golf brand.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:19:06

        Mm-hmm.

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:19:06

        Which is, like, fun, great, you know, fashionable clothes for, for women. She, she went on, um, uh... She, she used Midjourney, taught herself how to use Midjourney-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:19:16

        Yeah.

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:19:17

        -designed all of the designs on Midjourney, then went out and sourced, uh, her clothing with, uh, I think it's, uh, some Chinese players and Indian players, and I think a couple of o- other places. Uh, got the clothing, and now she is, is building this Lily Hammer brand, um, and using TikTok and, and using Instagram, uh, as her distribution mechanisms, and also going to, like, these traditional golf clubs, et cetera. She could not have done that ten years ago.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:19:48

        Mm-hmm.

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:19:49

        So I actually think this is a magical time, where the tools that you have, um, at your arsenal, uh, and the manufacturing prowess all around the world at your disposal, it's a great time to build brands. And I think the surfaces are there, as long as you have a story, you've got a personality, and you have a something distinctive to add.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:20:10

        You're saying social media is still the go-to place?

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:20:12

        Oh, yeah. Now, you know, would Liliana have the, the... You know, would she do well on Google? No.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:20:20

        Mm.

    22. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:20:20

        But that, that's not the surface. You know, that's a surface, let's say, for Lululemon, not, not her.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:20:26

        Uh,

26. 1:20:27 – 1:21:03

    Labour costs & immigration policies

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:20:27

       with the current president's immigration policies-

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:20:30

       Mm-hmm.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:20:31

       -do you think labor cost for your earners will go up significantly?

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:20:37

       The cost of labor will not go up directly-

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:20:41

       Mm-hmm.

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:20:41

       -because I think the vast majority of drivers, couriers, et cetera, are legal in terms of their immigration, uh, status. But to some extent, we compete with the labor market-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:20:50

       Mm-hmm

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:20:51

       ... in terms of the rates that, uh, our drivers wanna make per hour. So I think in an indirect way, it could have an effect on us, but I don't think it, it'll have a direct effect on us.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:01

       Right. So

27. 1:21:03 – 1:24:51

    China’s incredible EVs

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:03

       Dara, I have a fund back home in India, and I spent-

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:21:06

       You have a fund?

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:07

       I have a fund.

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:21:07

       Yeah, yeah.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:08

       Yeah, like a private equity fund.

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:21:09

       Sure.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:10

       And I-

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:21:10

       How's it doing?

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:11

       It's doing decent, I think. [chuckles]

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:21:13

        Nice.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:13

        I spent a lot of the last couple of years buying into the transition into electric mobility.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:21:20

        Interesting.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:21

        So we got everything from electric scooters to trucks to buses.

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:21:25

        Yeah.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:25

        We even did an electric flying taxi investment recently.

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:21:28

        Mm-hmm. All over the world, or in India specifically?

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:31

        Uh, a little bit all over the world, but more focused on that region.

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:21:34

        Yeah.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:35

        Have you seen Chinese electric vehicles, by the way?

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:21:38

        Oh.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:38

        They're incredible, right?

    22. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:21:39

        They are unbelievable. It is... The, the innovation coming out of the Chinese OEM and EV business, it, it's-- I've never seen anything like it. It's extraordinary.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:50

        Why, though? Why, why are they so far ahead of everyone else now?

    24. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:21:53

        Because of the competition. I, I, I think that, that there's this, um, belief, I, I'd say, from, from the US and, and a lot of, uh, of, of Western countries, that China is a planned economy.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:10

        Mm-hmm.

    26. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:22:10

        Okay? And China is a planned economy from a strategic s- standpoint. And for example, you know, they want to get into manufacturing EVs, et cetera. And so while that comes top-down from the government, then actually the way these industries grow-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:28

        Mm-hmm

    28. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:22:28

        ... is every, you know, Chinese significant city or province, et cetera, wants their own EV, uh, company to succeed. So in China now, there are over a hundred OEMs-

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:40

        Yeah

    30. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:22:40

        ... in China, well over a hundred. And so then there's this bottoms-up competition that's based on the top-down strategy that the government sets. So you have the kind of the best of both worlds, which is, you have industrial policy, but then the winners aren't who's buddies with the president.
28. 1:24:51 – 1:26:48

    The EV slowdown

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:24:51

       I had this thesis that all vehicles will be electric by X amount of time-

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:24:55

       Yeah

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:24:56

       ... but the adoption kind of just slowed down.

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:24:57

       I see it too.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:24:57

       Why is that?... subsidies are going away.

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:25:01

       Yeah, so subsidies are going away now. I, I do think that in, um, in Europe and China, it's definitely happening. Uh, I do think that it requires substantial investment over a long period of time in the infrastructure, charging infrastructure of cities.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:21

       Mm-hmm.

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:25:21

       And so the societies that have continued to make way there-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:27

       Mm-hmm

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:25:28

        ... uh, you are seeing the product, you're, you're seeing EV penetration, uh, continue to improve. And within Uber, you know, um, we are moving to EVs five times faster than the general public. So EVs inside of the Uber system are definitely increasing. Uh, and from my standpoint, I'm hoping that we continue to increase the penetration of EV- EVs. And the next driver that you want switching from a combustion engine to an EV is actually an Uber driver, 'cause the average Uber driver is driving four to five times the mileage of the average driver. So we continue to push it. We're still quite committed to, um, moving over to as much sustainable, uh, both packaging for our restaurants and EVs, but I would say that it's gotten much harder over the past two years.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:17

        So if I make the bet today by investing capital in the assumption that all vehicles will be EV, do you think it's still a fair bet?

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:26:24

        Yes, it's a better technology, but it's a question of you might wanna pick where you're investing.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:30

        Give me some advice. Where should I?

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:26:31

        Uh, well, China, no, there's too much competition, but I, I think that there's still potential in Europe, and, you know, I, I, I look at the, the, the investments going into the charging infrastructure of local cities. That, that's a signal that I would look for.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:46

        Right. With everything

29. 1:26:48 – 1:29:39

    Will Uber become a super app?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:48

       you're building, Dara, uh, funnily enough, I had to tell you this, there is a really popular wrestler, uh, in India with the name Dara Singh.

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:26:57

       Really?

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:57

       Yes. I don't know if I should call you Dara, because that's how we call it in India. [laughing]

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:27:01

       [laughing]

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:27:01

       Or Dara, as people-

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:27:02

       Dara's right, yeah, it's all good.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:27:04

       [laughing] Okay, with every-

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:27:04

       Is he, is he bigger than I am?

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:27:06

       I think so.

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:27:07

        I find that surprising.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:27:07

        [laughing] I've never met him, but I suspect he is. He's much bigger than me, too. With everything you're building, Dara, uh, is there a super app coming? Is that the eventual outcome?

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:27:21

        I think that, um, super apps seem to be particularly relevant in, uh, in, in Asia and China, et cetera.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:27:31

        Mm-hmm.

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:27:32

        They've been quite successful there. They've had less success in Western markets. So I don't know if we will get to what you would call a super app, but we certainly wanna be a connected family of apps.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:27:44

        Mm-hmm.

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:27:44

        So if you, if you go on Uber now, Uber Mobility, we have Uber Eats available to you, and, and people are, are transacting billions of dollars of Uber Eats on the Uber Mobility app.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:27:56

        Mm-hmm.

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:27:57

        And on, on Eats, obviously, we have grocery, we have retail. You'll know next time you need a travel, uh, a- adapter. And so the, the... we, we have, I'd say, an ecosystem-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:07

        Mm-hmm

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:28:08

        ... that is making it increasingly easier for you to work from surface to surface or with, with a membership, uh, uh, plan, Uber One, that gives you discounts on, on both. So I absolutely know that we are building kind of this local ecosystem, that local OS of yours.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:27

        Mm-hmm.

    22. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:28:27

        Um, whether the physical manifestation is a super app or not, I don't know. Uh, and my... You know, kind of the way I view it is I'm gonna, I- I'm gonna let our engineers and our product folks kind of innovate, come up with the next idea, and then we'll go kind of one step in front of the other to, to get to that outcome.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:45

        I was thinking about this, and I did a little bit of research. Super apps tend to work in societies without as much rebellion, in more-

    24. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:28:54

        As much what?

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:55

        Rebellion.

    26. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:28:56

        Yes.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:56

        In pseudo-socialist societies.

    28. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:28:58

        [laughing]

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:58

        In more capitalistic ones, everybody wants to bet on the new guy, the young guy. The same David vs Goliath argument.

    30. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:29:06

        I, I mean, I think, I, I think there might be some of that, but there's also kind of, um, phone storage and capabilities.
30. 1:29:39 – 1:32:27

    What would Dara build today?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:29:39

       Dara. You have been a successful investment banker, a two-time CEO, Expedia, Uber, sometimes joining midway-

    2. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:29:51

       Mm-hmm

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:29:51

       ... and really scaling the company.

    4. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:29:52

       Mm-hmm.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:29:54

       If you were me, a twenty-year-old boy or girl in India, and you had to start afresh, what would you build today, and who would you build it with?

    6. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:30:03

       Oh, boy.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:03

       Who would your co-founder be?

    8. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:30:05

       Um, so I always think people, people should know their own limits. I, I am not a startup person. That's not my skill.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:13

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:30:13

        I'm a scale person.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:14

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:30:14

        You know, I'm not the person to, to kind of start with, with an idea fresh. Uh, a- and I have enormous respect for those rebels-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:25

        Mm-hmm

    14. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:30:25

        ... who think that they can do it o- on their own. My advice would be... I, I've always said, when, when I give career advice to people, is I look for three things. Um, one is I want to work for people who I like-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:38

        Mm-hmm

    16. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:30:38

        ... and I can learn from. Second is I wanna go to a place where I, as an individual, can make a difference.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:45

        Mm-hmm.

    18. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:30:46

        And third, I wanna make a difference at a place that matters in the world, is making a difference in the world. Uh, and actually, that's why, like, investment banking for me, like, great people, I thought I was pretty good, but it wasn't... I didn't get that jazz. I wasn't changing the world.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:31:02

        Mm-hmm.

    20. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:31:03

        And so then when I saw Barry, I'm like: Great, I wanna work for him!

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:31:06

        Mm.

    22. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:31:07

        And we were, you know, really on this path of the changing of the world and hopefully helped it with travel as well, and, and I was really... You know, I thought I was gonna run Expedia for as long as Barry would help me. But then, for me, Uber, the thing that really excited me was how important Uber was to the world and, you know, the difference hopefully that I could make as a, a- as a CEO. I think a lot of young people, they kind of think too much about, like, how much money they're gonna make or this or that. It's like, work for people who you love or respect, make a difference, and try to work at a place that's making a difference, [upbeat music] and the rest takes care of itself. [laughing]

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:31:47

        Thank you, Dara. This was a lot of fun.

    24. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:31:48

        Thank you.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:31:49

        And, uh, hopefully we do it again sometime soon.

    26. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:31:51

        I think that'd be great.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:31:52

        Thank you. [laughing]

    28. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:31:52

        Thank you. [upbeat music]

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:01

        How did you hurt your hand?

    30. DKDara Khosrowshahi1:32:02

        Um, I was at camp, uh, with my kids, and my son, uh, Hugo, is a keeper.

Episode duration: 1:32:27