EVERY SPOKEN WORD
105 min read · 20,833 words- 0:00 – 2:33
Introduction
- SPSpeaker
[upbeat music]
- NKNikhil Kamath
If you had one chance to redo life today, starting afresh, you're not Kumar Mangalam Birla, but you're just Kumar starting off. What business would you put the money in? [upbeat music] Firstly, thank you for, uh, doing this. So the format of this is very casual. It's typically a bunch of friends sitting and chatting. How it started was I used to have a, a few people over for dinner in Bangalore on the weekends, and some of the conversations we had were so interesting that a lot of people would go back home from dinner and say that, "You know, I wish more people could be a part of that."
- KBKumar Birla
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Like, extremely contrarian opinions on different viewpoints, so stuff like that.
- KBKumar Birla
Oh, that sounds interesting.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. So this is all in, like, uh, an effort to help many people who could learn from your own journey. Uh, most of our audience are entrepreneurs and wanna-be entrepreneurs who are quite young, in the age bracket of, I would say, fifteen to thirty-five, forty. And, uh, from-
- KBKumar Birla
Starting at fifteen?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, very young. And a lot of them want to be entrepreneurs, and they could learn a lot from your own journey. So if I could start at the beginning, wherever you wanna talk, and think of it as a two-way conversation. If you feel like you want to ask me anything-
- KBKumar Birla
Sure, sure.
- NKNikhil Kamath
... feel free to ask me-
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
-anything about anything, and I will try and answer as honestly as I can.
- KBKumar Birla
Done.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Theek hai?
- KBKumar Birla
Mind, I end up asking you more than you ask me. [chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
[chuckles]
- 2:33 – 4:00
Chapter 1 - Kumar’s Childhood
- NKNikhil Kamath
So tell us-
- KBKumar Birla
Okay
- NKNikhil Kamath
... uh, a little bit about the early years. First, uh, vivid memory that comes to you from childhood. Start from there.
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah, so very happy childhood, to say the least. Very secure, lots of, um, laughter, uh, great sense of positivity, high energy, uh, you know, very, uh, close family ties.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And where was this?
- KBKumar Birla
So a part of it was in Calcutta.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, the rest of it was in Bombay. But, uh, you know, on holidays, I always went back to Calcutta-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... because the larger family was there. So for me, childhood means Calcutta much more than Bombay. Uh, it's very secure. I think it just gives you, uh, an anchor and very strong roots.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And, uh, what era was this?
- KBKumar Birla
Era? [chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. [chuckles] What generation?
- KBKumar Birla
We moved to Bombay in '69, I think.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
So at least for the n- next twenty years after that.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. Leading up to this, I watched all your interviews. Uh, everything from-
- KBKumar Birla
There aren't too many.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, there's so few.
- KBKumar Birla
I don't, uh... Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. There's very few about you. There are a couple about you acquiring a company, entering the ARC business-
- KBKumar Birla
Mm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... uh, talking about Ratan Tata
- 4:00 – 5:00
Last Interview years ago with Simi Garewal
- NKNikhil Kamath
at his demise, stuff like that. But the one interview I found of you was twenty-six years ago, I think Simi Garewal.
- KBKumar Birla
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What led you to do that?
- KBKumar Birla
Simi Garewal. I just thought it was interesting. Um, I don't know. She's a friend-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Uh.
- KBKumar Birla
-so also couldn't say no, to be honest.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, liked the format. It was kind of fun.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, yeah, is it still there on, on YouTube?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Of course, yeah.
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah. That was very early years. I think my father had just passed away less than a year ago.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
So life was different then.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. You looked very fashionable in that interview. You had, like, this double-breasted-
- KBKumar Birla
Mm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... I would say, what? Brown, brownish paint.
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah, camel color, I think.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Camel color jacket.
- KBKumar Birla
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
This is not something people talk about. Like, if you were to tell me what is the... Ask me, "What is the difference between camel brown suede and, I don't know, nude color?" I wouldn't know.
- 5:00 – 9:20
Creativity in Business
- NKNikhil Kamath
But is this-
- KBKumar Birla
Nor would I.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah?
- KBKumar Birla
No, I wouldn't.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is there a creative element in you hiding somewhere?
- KBKumar Birla
Of course. I think I'm essentially a creative person.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
And for me, the most creative thing you can do is build or run a business.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, I think there's so much of creativity that goes into that, into that. Don't you think so?
- NKNikhil Kamath
To a certain extent, yes. But beyond a certain extent, for a-
- KBKumar Birla
Mm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... business that has reached the scale that yours has-
- KBKumar Birla
Mm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... is it creativity as much as it is risk-taking ability and efficiency?
- KBKumar Birla
Risk-taking and efficiency, of course, is always a part of any business.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, I think as a business grow, grows larger and scales up, uh, you know, you need to be more and more creative because, uh, all the s- sort of, uh, low-hanging fruit are done with-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... uh, and you've got to keep creating value. Uh, so I think you actually need to be-- that's when management turns from being a science into an art.
- NKNikhil Kamath
... Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, and therefore, I think that phase of a company's life, when you've got scale, when you're maybe the largest or second-largest player, uh, you're required to think really out of the box. So more creativity re- required, I would think.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So grew up in Cal- Calcutta and then Mumbai. Which school did you go to? Do you remember anything from those times?
- KBKumar Birla
I went to Campion.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, I remember school quite well. Very tough environment, very strict, uh, environment, so a little different. Uh, not too much of fun for a better part of it. I think we all enjoyed, uh, you know, class nine and ten, because then you grow up and you have your own sort of, um, uh, you know, you're real in- independent of, uh, school authority. Uh, but, um, good fun.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, very simple, very cosmopolitan. Uh, you know, I mean, at our time, at that time, it was all very simple stuff. Excited to run and get a, get an ice cream, uh, during recess, that kind of thing.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
Getting whacked for not getting the right book and not wearing the right kind of shoe. Uh, that was the kind of school that it was.
- 9:20 – 15:56
Aspirations and Fears as a child
- NKNikhil Kamath
how you were as a young boy? What your attachment styles were? Did you get along more with your mother or your father? Uh, what were your aspirations back then and your fears back then?
- KBKumar Birla
Wow! You really are getting me to go back in time. Um, like I said, it's been family for me, for me all along. Uh, you know, I think strong family ties, uh, makes you a different kind of a person.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
I've, um, I've always been closer to my mother, but was very strongly bonded with my father as well.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
So in our generation, uh, chances were that there was a distance between a father and a son, and that was almost kind of, uh, you know, the done thing or the norm. Um, but obviously, we were very connected. Um, we all lived together. I think I didn't have any fears, or I didn't have any very complex thoughts or feelings, to be honest. When I look at, uh, children of that age now, their lives are so much more complex, right? Uh, they about, they know about every student in every school in Bombay-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... uh, and what happened. I mean, if something unusual, out of the way, was to happen-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... let's say a kid was caught taking drugs, the whole of, uh, the city's children would know about it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
Although it wasn't, uh, in their school, maybe.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
For us, it was one class above us, one class below us. That's all we knew.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
We were quite happy with ourselves. So I don't remember having any kind of fears. The only fear was about exams, maybe. Um, as simple as that. I, I was always a last-minute student and got into trouble with my father for that, so that was perhaps the only fear. Uh, aspirations at that time, again, you, you know, we were so unexposed in many ways.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
So it was all about school. It was a- about school. It was about, uh, you know, you hung out with some friend, lots of cousins. Not too many aspiration at that point in life, to be really honest. Just, you know, uh, almost one exam to the other, so to speak.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, they were the sort of, uh, bookends of life at that point in time.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, so it was quite of a, you know, uncomplicated, easy childhood. I don't remember feeling any kind of complex, uh, inferior or superior. I don't feel... I never felt any jealousy or envy or nothing negative at all. I think it was always, um-... that was always the atmosphere at home as well.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, a little stressed because I created that stress for myself. I wanted to always do well. Not that it was, uh, you know, thrust on me, but that was an expectation I had for myself. That perhaps was the only stress, uh, at that point in time.
- NKNikhil Kamath
If you had to go back in time and think of the most stressful thing that happened to you between the grade of five and ten, is there a memory that pops up?
- KBKumar Birla
I think the ICSE exams, they were quite, uh, you know-
- NKNikhil Kamath
The tenth standard.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, grade ten. Uh, very hyped up-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
-very scary for most of us.
- 15:56 – 28:50
Birla Generational Distinction
- NKNikhil Kamath
how each of them were different from the other? Grandfather from father-
- KBKumar Birla
Mm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... to great-grandfather?
- KBKumar Birla
You know, they were all products of, uh, different, uh, time frames. So my great-grandfather was, uh, you know, pretty much a, a product of, uh, pre-independent India.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
My grandfather, a time of scarcity-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... because that's the time that he, uh, kind of represented, the time that he was active in his career. My-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Scarcity by virtue of India flirting with socialism?
- KBKumar Birla
Socialism. Also, we were obviously, um, you know, um, at a nascent stage of being a developing country.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, so I mean, you sort of lived within your means. You didn't spend too much. Uh, it was a very different... The mindscape at that time was, uh, very different. My father grew up in a liberalized India.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, and I think, you know, the businesses, uh, that you run also shape you as a person.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
It's not just the other way around. So all of them were pretty distinct. My father was more expansive in his view on business. My great-grandfather, of course, played a very important role in just building Indian industry at-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KBKumar Birla
... at the grassroots level, uh, just pre- and post-independence. Um, my grandfather was, uh, more conservative, uh, and he was a numbers person, so he drove his businesses, uh, through numbers, so to speak. So pretty different, all of them. Uh, interesting.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So when your grandfather was around in a time of scarcity, ra- in the country overall, when he saw that change, did he change?
- KBKumar Birla
No, he, he remained very much the same. He passed about five years ago.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
And I happened to go and open his cupboard after that, looking for something. He had five kurtans, kurtas and dhotis and three suits, and that was about it.... uh, just to get him to make a new suit for himself-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
-was like a major project for, uh, my grandmother and my aunt. That, that's the kind of, you know, life that they were used to-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
-and that's the kind of life that, uh, we got exposed to through them.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
So I don't know many people who have had, uh, or who, who've been told to go back, uh, into the room and put off the light or the fan.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
That for us at that time was, you know, pretty kind of common because it, it was expected that when you l- leave the room, you put on the fan, you put off the light. Uh, so we had a brush with that also-
- 28:50 – 38:00
Attachment types
- KBKumar Birla
didn't happen with me at all.
- NKNikhil Kamath
They say something very interesting about attachment types. I've always tried to figure out mine, and I feel like I'm avoidant attached. I'll give you an example. If three children were left alone in a room, and their mothers leave the room-
- KBKumar Birla
Hmm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... the children start crying. The mother of the first child comes back and cuddles the child, the child stops crying immediately. The mother of the second child comes and cuddles the child, the child takes a certain amount of time of crying, b- after which the child stops crying. The third child, the mother leaves the croo- room, does not cry, and the mother comes back into the room, acts like she doesn't care, and does not give attention or acknowledge the mother's presence. If you had to put yourself in one of those boxes, which one would you be?
- KBKumar Birla
As a parent or as a child?
- NKNikhil Kamath
As a child. As a child.
- KBKumar Birla
You know, I- since, uh, we were quite a few members in the family-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... uh, my grandparents, my aunts, two aunts, my, those are my father's sisters, who I've, uh, been very close to, my grandparents, parents, who were a very sort of integral part of my life.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
So you kind of, uh... And my great-grandfather, my parents, of course.... you know, each one had their own kind of, like I was saying, pet peeve.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, they were all different personalities. Sometimes when I look back now, I almost feel that it was choreographed, you know? One was being a good cop, one was being a bad cop.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, but, uh, you know, net-net, that worked quite well actually. Uh, if, let's say, I had a parent who be- believed in, let's say, in tough love, and no one to, in, in the family to soften that for me-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... I, I think that would have been much tougher. Uh, but when you have, uh, when you're attached to so many people in the family, it gives you a broader base-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KBKumar Birla
... a broader emotional base. So it worked, uh, as a, as a team, I think, you know, like a pack.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, and that's true for all of us, I think. We all kind of, you know, we're part of a family, obviously, and like a pack.
- NKNikhil Kamath
In love today, is it like that? In a relationship where you're in love with the other person, are you very emotionally availably attached to the person?
- KBKumar Birla
Who, me?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, very easily emotionally available, yes, but to very few people. Uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Who comes on top of that hierarchy?
- KBKumar Birla
The children, of course. I think that's true for any-
- NKNikhil Kamath
One of them?
- KBKumar Birla
All three of them. Uh, I have a different equation with all three of them.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- 38:00 – 44:38
“Life is much easier when your need to conform is lower”
- KBKumar Birla
about it, the only thing that made my, uh, dad worry about me was the fact that I didn't always conform.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, and that sort of, you know, got him really worried, especially when it cames- came to airing my opinions about people, most, most, uh, often. Uh, he didn't think it was a good idea to have strong views, um, on people, uh, issues and situations, especially in the family or, uh, in a home context. Uh, and I was always very liberal with my views.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, that's just the DNA, I guess, that I've, uh, been born with. Uh, and he was always a little on the edge because of that, a little careful about, you know, what is he going to say next? And I wasn't particularly, uh, you know, uh, careful about who I'm saying s- saying something to. Uh, if I didn't agree with you, I could be pretty opinionated and come across as being, you know, uh, very apparent that I, I don't agree. Um, that could be a relative, that could be a guest, it could be a friend of the family's. That's something that he couldn't quite understand.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
Conforming is, is something that it is a very sort of double-edged sword, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KBKumar Birla
So you have to kind of strike a balance, I think. Uh, the pressure to perform or conform on your generation is much less than it was, uh, on us.
- NKNikhil Kamath
But to my generation-
- KBKumar Birla
Which I think is, uh, you know, huge.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. But I think my generation, being woke is also conforming to being woke.
- KBKumar Birla
Hmm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I don't think anybody has thought deeply enough about the contrarian viewpoints of the prior generation that we are taking. We are woke today because it's cool to be woke.
- KBKumar Birla
So you're saying that being woke is not really, uh, rooted in, you know, actual belief about something, it's just about being cool and being... going with the tide?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KBKumar Birla
That you will-- I think you'll always have a majority of people who are like that.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, I mean, you know, that, that's something that's not going to change, not in your generation, not in the generation after that. But I think that, uh, not being able to conform-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... in some ways, uh, it gives you more choices, right? I mean, it gives you, uh, more latitude in the choices you make about, say, career-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- KBKumar Birla
... uh, about so many things. Life is much easier when, uh, the need to conform is, you know, much lower.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. It's like wine. Every year of wine, a certain vintage of wine, has a certain characteristic. I feel like the mask of wokeness is my generation's characteristic.
- KBKumar Birla
Hmm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And the default setting is the mask, and it's the easier setting, so nobody really has to question why we are woke.
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah, but I think that people, with people you, uh, interact with, you know, fairly closely, the mask will always fall.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
If someone's advocating something just to be woke and not because they believe in it, you know, that mask always falls. And, you know, a lot of people, most people want to conform.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- 44:38 – 50:20
Kumar’s private life
- NKNikhil Kamath
to not speak publicly about what you're thinking? I, I think you barely have. Like I was saying, the last real interview I watched was 26 years ago. Why is that?
- KBKumar Birla
You know, I have pretty much consciously stayed away from the media.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
I don't think that my job, uh, requires me to be, uh, in people's faces all the time.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
And personally, I'm, I'm a private person. I don't... I, I'm not very sort of keen on sharing, uh, things about my personal life or, uh, you know, I'd rather keep all of that, my personal thoughts to myself. Um, that's pretty much it. There's no, no other reason for that. I mean, you have platforms to, uh, express your opinions if you want to, right? Whether it's at work or-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... whether it's with the government or whether it's your family.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
And rather than speak about it to people at large, uh, through the media, you'd rather- I'd rather speak about it at an appropriate forum or an appropriate platform. It could be a d- dinner table conversation.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
So I've never really shied away from, like I said, from speaking my mind. If, uh, it's something that really matters to me or bothers me, uh, never worried about becoming unpopular on account of that or, you know, kind of rubbing someone the wrong way, if, if it comes from a place of conviction. But it doesn't have to be something that's known to the whole world. Uh, it's something that I think, uh, needs to be spoken of to the appropriate audience.
- NKNikhil Kamath
If you had zero fear-- Like, I'm scared of so many things, right? Like, I'm scared of, uh, judgment online. I'm scared, I'm scared of perception, government, regulator, this, that, the other, like a hundred different things. If you were scared of nothing-
- KBKumar Birla
Mm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... and you had to say one thing that society needs to hear, but nobody is saying it, what would it be?
- KBKumar Birla
What would, what would it be for you? Give me an example.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I feel like men's mental health is as important, uh-
- KBKumar Birla
Mm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... to society as anything else, and we should give it the place and weightage that it deserves.
- KBKumar Birla
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. Your turn.
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah, no, I, I think that, um, you know, equality in terms of, uh, let's say there's a marriage.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, you know, I've seen this so often, girl's side, boy's side, and the whole societal construct around that. What is expected of the boy's side, what is, uh, so much more expectation on the girl's side. That kind of equ- equality is something that I think we need to, uh, you know, strive to make, uh, a change, uh, with... It's mindset, mindsets. It's about, uh, it's tradition sometimes. Sometimes it's just the way people are. But I think that that's such an important role, uh, in our society. Uh, you know, it has so many good and bad consequences. Uh, it would be good for people to speak about that, create awareness around that.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Fair.
- KBKumar Birla
You know, for example, for a lot of parents, uh, boy's parents asking for- daughter's parents, boy's parents asking for dowry is something that's quite normal.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, they say, "You know, ऐसा तो होता है"... kya isme kya hai? I mean, what's wrong with it? Some of these, I think, require radical change, and someone has to start to talk about them and create awareness. Uh, that's something that I, I feel quite strongly about because I just think that, you know, there are so many people who, uh, are indebted for their whole life because they spend so much on getting their daughter married. Not in our society, but in a lot of societies that we won't even imagine, uh, you know, things like, uh, this happening. That kind of thing, uh, makes me feel, uh, like it needs to be talked about, uh, by opinion makers, mindsets changed. Long process, but that's something that would, uh, bother me. Interesting, it, it shapes-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
-that's how, uh, you know, society at that level gets shaped. That's how family units, uh, get shaped. I remember just, just a few days ago, uh, we run this scholarship in my father's name.
- 50:20 – 55:08
What does “legacy” mean to Kumar? | Philanthropy side
- KBKumar Birla
Well, that's a big one. Legacy to me is more about impact, uh, not so much about, uh, accolades. It's about the impact you've had on people, on society. In, in a case, like, say, in, in the case of our family, it's more about impact through business. Um, I think that's what creates, uh, legacy, the way you connect with people, the way you give back to society, whether it impacts lives, families in a direct way. That is, uh, legacy to me. Uh, that's how we think of legacy. I mean, that's what, um, any of us, I think, in the family would think of, uh, when one talks of legacy.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you think generosity is a magnet for power?
- KBKumar Birla
You know, in a-- Are you saying in a corporate? In a corporate context, giving back is not generosity. I think it's just something that, uh... Look, you're taking from society and generating a profit, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
So giving a part of that back to society is something that, for me and for all of us, is a given. Is not a big, big deal. I mean, it's something that you ought to be doing in the first place, in any case.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
And why make such a big deal out of it?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, it's almost a responsibility. You know, a- as we, as I look ahead, uh, globally, I think maybe after the church in some parts of the world, or the government, of course, uh, everywhere in the world, uh, corporates are going to be one of the most important stakeholders-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... globally-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- KBKumar Birla
-in every, every part of the world, practically. So that comes with the inherent, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Would you say that-
- KBKumar Birla
-responsibility.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Would you say that order is state, church, corporates? Church, I'm adding, like, all religions.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, I, I think even if that were to be the case, I mean, that's always up for debate, but the point remains that corporates still are a very important and a growing, uh, part of society, and the expectation or the desire to give back is a responsibility, and it's not really something that, uh, unusual or something that's altruistic. I mean, it's just something that should be done, uh, because you're just giving back to society from which the business... Forget about the individual part of it, that of course, also. But when you're getting so much, uh, for business to play a role in impacting society positively, is just part of a charter of business. I don't think that it needs to be, uh, called out as philanthropy necessarily. Uh, that, that's how we would view it, which is why also we wouldn't talk about it, not for any other reason. But, you know, a lot of people, uh, have asked, uh, as to why there's no documentation on the work the family has done over the years, over generations. Um, and I did ask this to some of the family elders a few years ago, and obviously, no one was interested in doing that. Um, I don't think there's anyone in the family today who knows about all the charities that have been done over the years in terms of contribution, you know, community asset building. Uh, and I, I think it would be great documentary, just as an archival thing for the family, for our children and grandchildren. Obviously, no one in the family, other than me, believes there's merit to doing that-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... uh, which is quite telling, actually.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, but there is no one who knows about everything that's been done in terms of giving back, uh, through the generations. There are so many things you hear about. Go on a plant visit, and there'll be people who will come and say that, "... aapki, aapke parivar ki banayi hui hai.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
And if I ask the family elders, none of them would sort of-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
-sometimes even know about it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
So, I mean, it's a different way of giving. It's, it's what some people would call gupt, yeah, uh, dan.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Gupt dan, which means it's really something that, you know, doesn't need to be talked about or revealed, so to speak. Uh, it's just in the normal course of business, normal course of life.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Your family had a very interesting
- 55:08 – 1:01:55
Birla Family’s relationship with Mahatma Gandhi
- NKNikhil Kamath
past with Mahatma Gandhi. Can you tell us more about that? He's such a enigmatic figure in our own country's history, but, uh, not enough is spoken about him today, maybe. And, uh, if you had-- if you have any stories, any, like, interesting things that happened. He lived in your house in the last part of his life as well, right?
- KBKumar Birla
I mean, this was well before I was born- [chuckles] ... Nikhil.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, but, you know, essentially, uh, there is this socioeconomic concept of trusteeship, which my great-grandfather, having spent so much of time with him and being a, a close associate, came to embrace.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Which is that, you know, private, uh, p- companies in the private sector, so to speak, are more, um, uh... It's more about collective prosperity as opposed to emblems of capitalism. Uh, again, it comes back to the same topic that we were talking about, philanthropy. It's not about philanthropy, it's about giving back. That concept of trusteeship, uh, has just percolated down, uh, the generations. Of course, one has heard about, uh, the time when he stayed in our family home, uh, the day that he was shot-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- KBKumar Birla
... and, you know, what happened after that, where people were. My grandmother remembered clearly where she was when this happened, and how they all went rushing down and, you know, uh, all, all the events that kind of happened after that. Uh, but I think the Gandhian way of living, there is still an element of that, uh, that exists. Um, so for example, you know, we, we would do a ten-minute puja for Diwali, ten-minute puja for Holi.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, I used to ask my, you know, my parents, "Well, why is it that we don't celebrate?" "So you celebrate if you want to, there's no harm, but we don't believe in this, uh, thing of, uh, uh, you know, uh, spending too much time, uh, on, uh, rituals," for example, a small thing. Uh, so there are, there are sort of strong pieces of that legacy that also remain, uh, which I find quite endearing, actually. Uh, obviously, much less than before. I mean, [clears throat] I remember, uh, my grandparents telling me, my grandaunts, how they, uh, lit a bonfire at the back of the house during the freedom movement, and they all sort of, you know, uh, burned their clothes that they had, that were imported-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
-and started to wear khadi. Obviously, it doesn't-- that passion doesn't sort of obviously stay the way it was at that point in time.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
But I think that there are elements of that, uh, philosophy or that way of life, way of thinking, uh, that still, you know, come up every now and then, uh, within the family, and I think we're so fortunate for that.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Any, like... If you were to describe him in three words, just the individual, not the public persona of all that we know about him. From a story that has been foretold in the family or has come down generations, how would you describe the man?
- KBKumar Birla
Mahatma Gandhi? That's a tough one. Um, liberal, I think.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm?
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, yeah, I mean, I think he, the influence he, in, that he had, uh, on my great-grandfather, therefore on my family, would indicate to me that he wasn't one to be overly sort of, uh, cowed down by societal norms.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, quite liberal in the way he thought. Uh, and, and that influence was something that rubbed off.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Anything else about him?
- KBKumar Birla
Not really, Nikhil. I mean, um, when you go to our family house, which is now, of course, uh, owned by the government, you'll see that, uh, it was, uh... You know, if you see, uh, his room, his chashma, book, you know, like a sort of a bed. Obviously, he believed in, uh, simplicity.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, not, uh, accumulating for himself at all. Obviously, that's something that everyone knows about him. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I think he was quite liberal in his thoughts in many ways.
- NKNikhil Kamath
If we were to go back to the innate nature of human beings, and we say there is no such thing as true altruism, everybody gets some kind of a high. For the ones who don't get it from capitalism, it might be from being a contrarian, it might be a moralistic high, it might be that philanthropy s- gives somebody a high. Would you agree with that concept, that we are all chasing a high which only we can define for ourselves?
- KBKumar Birla
Give me an example.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Like, if I were to find a person who does not believe in accumulating money-... uh, somebody who, I, I don't wanna take the example of somebody who's not alive anymore, but somebody who's alive, who has dedicated his life to philanthropy, for example. Do you think that is appeasing his, his morality in such a way that it is giving a high which might be bigger than the high of capitalism even? 'Cause it's rarer in today's capitalist society.
- KBKumar Birla
Could well be. I mean, it's-- I, I guess it's a case-to-case situation, can't generalize. Uh, but if one has spent his or her life, uh, you know, uh, being philanthropic, chances are that they truly believe in that, which is why they lived a, a life, uh, that they chose to live. Even if there is some element of making you feel, uh, you know, like a high if you're supporting people, you know, in whatever way that you are, I think that's fair. I mean, how does that matter? That's, that's just the human mind.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Fair. We'll go back to your high school. We went up until then, in Bombay.
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah.
- 1:01:55 – 1:04:50
Kumar’s College Life
- KBKumar Birla
Very well, yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And then college was?
- KBKumar Birla
Well, I went to junior college, uh, in, uh, Sydenham.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, uh, later in HR, I had started to study for my CA.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Uh-huh.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, even during the ICSE break. Um, so I was studying for my CA alongside my graduation. Uh, I, I actually became a CA six months after graduating.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Which is quite hard.
- KBKumar Birla
Which is very hard.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, not something that I enjoyed at all. I mean, that was a tough, tough phase of life, because when your fr- friends were having a relatively good time-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... you had to work pretty hard.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
And what was the driving factor to put in that work?
- KBKumar Birla
So my-
- NKNikhil Kamath
'Cause you didn't have to.
- KBKumar Birla
I didn't want to do a CA at all. I thought it was very dry, very boring.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
It's a very tough... It used to be, I mean, the pass percentage was, I think, two or three percent when I gave it. So you can imagine the kind of stress-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... uh, it causes.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
And I wasn't the kind of person who would get into it and not get out of it, uh, successfully.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Not the kind of person who would drop things midway.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Was that the weight of expectations and lineage, or was that coming from inside?
- 1:04:50 – 1:14:49
Thoughts on Expressing Extreme Emotions
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm. Do you think fear is a significantly larger, more powerful motivator than love, for example?
- KBKumar Birla
I do.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I think Machiavelli says this. Uh, Machiavelli is like, I don't know, like Italian Chanakya maybe, if you were to, like, draw down an Indian analogy. But when he was advising the Medicis and the Roman and the Florentine emperors of the time, he always said that, "As a leader, depict or influence fear among people is a far-- will have a far longer tenure of rule, successful tenure of rule, than if you were to show love to people. 'Cause fear can be controlled, and love cannot."
- KBKumar Birla
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What do you think about that?
- KBKumar Birla
I, I don't believe in that. I think fear is something that... For example, I wouldn't want my children to be fearful of anything.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Unless they're doing something that's incorrect or, uh, unethical, which is not gonna happen, just knowing the way they are. I don't think they, they need to be fearful. Why fear, I mean? Fear is something that can really, uh, you know, quash you as, as a personality. Why would you-- It's also a very different context, right? I'm talking about, uh, I was 22, so that's about 35 years ago. Uh, parenting was, uh, a very different thing then, clearly. Uh, in today's context, I don't think that fear should have a role. I don't think it can have any kind of positive role to play in one's life.
- NKNikhil Kamath
You have a very kind way of explaining things. I read somewhere or someone said that you never lose your cool. You've lost it only twice.
- KBKumar Birla
... I've lost it eighteen times in thirty, twenty-nine years. And the reason I, um, I remember this [chuckles] number so specifically is that it- I- to me, it's a black mark if you're losing your cool, especially at work. You know, you, you're blessed to have so many colleagues who-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... uh, who put in so much of, uh, their emotional, intellectual equity, their time. Then for me to have to lose my cool is, is really a, uh, not a very good commentary on me as a leader. Uh, therefore, I've kept a count of it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Having said that, you know, sometimes, uh, it's important to be angry. I mean, that's, that's for the better. You need to be angry-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KBKumar Birla
... just to, uh, you know, express a point of view that otherwise is sort of not going through or not getting registered as strongly as, as required. But, um, yeah, I, I think that, uh, uh, I'm a much, uh, easier person today than I was maybe even ten years ago. Um, even personally, um, uh, I'm, I'm much less likely to lose my cool-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... uh, or lose my shirt over something. The chances of me just walking away from the situation are much higher.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, I, I think that's just, uh, learning from life. It's also a lot of spirituality that you touched upon some time back. Um, I just think that getting angry is, unless it's something that, you know, and it depends on what. I'm saying in the, in the context of work, uh, having to get angry is, uh, it shouldn't happen very often. Uh, for me, it's not happened very often, and it's worked. There are tough comp- con- conversations that you, that you need to have.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
And I've had several tough conversations on a one-to-one or with small teams. That's very different from getting angry.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, getting angry in some way, let's say, in a corporate context, it's also a little bit about getting out of control, almost-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KBKumar Birla
... in my mind. Uh, and therefore, not a very good thing, the way I see it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Are you somebody who-
- KBKumar Birla
You look like a very soft person and not someone who's gonna get, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
I never get angry.
- KBKumar Birla
Angry, yeah.
- 1:14:49 – 1:21:56
Chapter 2 - Life, post becoming a Chartered Accountant
- NKNikhil Kamath
happened?
- KBKumar Birla
I mean, I got married, worked for, for my father. I was also working with my father whilst doing my CA.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, which meant just sitting next to him.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, it was like a real-time MBA.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Which part of the business?
- KBKumar Birla
So he had by then been detected with cancer, and in retrospect, I think he kind of, uh, re-pivoted the training, uh, program that he had for me after that. Made it quite smooth for me, but, uh, he just wanted me to be with him through the day, you know, sit through meetings, be in different situations. Um, all kinds of businesses, even then, in the sense, some that were doing well, some that weren't doing well. Just to give me a sense of, uh, uh, you know, different businesses across the group, a more pan-group kind of, uh, exposure, which meant that, uh, I sat with him for eight, nine hours every day. Uh, quite tough, but I could see very quickly that there's lots to be learnt here, uh, in real time.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What era was this? Which year?
- KBKumar Birla
So this would be, uh... You know, as part of your CA, you can intern with a company.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
And I chose to obviously do that with our company. So this was probably when I was 18.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
So '85, I guess. Uh, it was an interesting time. I mean, very different time from now, again. And I remember that-- I remember my mother, he used to complain to my mother quite often that, "I don't think Kumar pays attention."
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
And I used to tell her, "You know, I'm sitting right under his nose, literally." I mean, I, I, I could almost be on his lap. Uh, and why on Earth would I not pay attention? I mean, and so this went on for, for a while, three or four times. Then eventually, I told her: "You know, we must ask him to stop and ask me-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... about what's happening or my views or something about what's being discussed, because that's the only way that he will know whether I'm paying attention or not." So he started to do that, and fortunately, I obviously was paying attention and absorbing every bit of it. I kind of gave the impression that I was, uh, not being focused for some reason. Um, but strangely, that changed my equation with him at work. You know, he suddenly started-- He said to me: "How is it that I thought you don't sort of pay attention, but you simply not seem to know pretty much what's happening. You absorb very fast." And so I said: "You know, I'm almost a CA. I'm gonna be a CA in one year, so obviously-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... there has to be some advantage to that." Uh, that kind of was very reassuring to him. You know, he just said that, "I, I just feel that I had no idea that you, uh, learn so quickly," and which was a huge thing for me at that point in my career, where my father was this huge, almost like a monster, the first year that I worked with him. Um, so that, that was a huge shot in the arm. I think completing my CA, uh, was a big thing for me. I-- The last six months, uh, I got a job offer at every company that I went to for, for an audit.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
They just knew me as Kumar, and, uh, you know, uh, that was reassuring. My father got-- started to get a little worried, I thought.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, you know, sort of like a way, but-... all of those things were positive, uh, you know, positive signals to me. I grew in my confidence because of that. College, uh, I couldn't really get to because I was either-- for, for two years, I was auditing the whole day-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
-part of the CA. So every, every CA charter and every end of every term, I'd be outside the staff room and blacklisted, and, "Call your parents," and all of that. I said, "I'm doing my CA. I told that to you when I took admission. I'm not-- there's no way I'm calling my parents. If you really, really want, want me to do that, you give me my TC-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
-and I'm out of here." TC is transfer certificate.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, so this drama went on almost for three years, unfortunately.
- 1:21:56 – 1:25:15
Early days at the company at 20 | Sacrifices, Hard Work
- NKNikhil Kamath
back then? Um, I'm picturing '85, '86, pre-liberal India. You, a eighteen-year-old man, going to work with his father. Like, paint a picture of your day back then. Where was office? What was the scale of office? What did it mean when you g- when you go to work, how did the employees of the office look at you? Can you throw some light? I'm just trying to put a picture to it.
- KBKumar Birla
Hmm. So, um, I was like an intern, other than the fact that I was the owner's son.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, so I had the opportunity and privilege to sit right next to him. Uh, and, uh, like I said, it was like a real-time MBA because-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... you know, I, I saw him handling tough situations. I saw him conduct an AGM. I saw him firing someone. I saw him hiring some good people, uh, you know, attend to government issues. That kind of exposure is something that you'd get over a period of time-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... in your career. So this was actually quite encapsulated because I think he knew somewhere that he, he was running out of time.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
And therefore, he created this kind of, uh, encapsulated module for me-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KBKumar Birla
... to learn the different aspects of running a business. Uh, so I was growing, uh, personally, professionally. It was a time of stress. Uh, you know, I, I, I think very few would be able to take that kind of pressure. But, you know, like I said, uh, I knew deep down that despite all the pain, it was well worth it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, I was learning. I was in a very steep, uh, learning curve. Uh, I couldn't have learned all of that sitting in college. Um, I also worked for a year, uh, on the shop floor in a textile mill, which was quite fascinating. I wanted to understand about controls, financial controls, how manufacturing works, how-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... uh, you know, how, uh, you run a manufacturing business.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- KBKumar Birla
Um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
This was at Grasim?
- KBKumar Birla
This was at Century Textiles, that my grandfather-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KBKumar Birla
... owned and, and ran-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KBKumar Birla
... at the time. Now we've come to, Nikhil, when I'm last year of college, so I'm twenty-two, twenty-three-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
... twenty, twenty-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... years of age.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, so that's a lot of stuff happening-
- 1:25:15 – 1:26:40
Friends from back in the day
- KBKumar Birla
from back in the day who I'm in touch with on a regular basis. Uh, and thank God for that because they're such a huge support, uh, each in their own way.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, you can be-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Would you like to name them?
- KBKumar Birla
... pretty much yourself. I mean, they're not people who I've known, they're friends from school and college.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
You can give them a shout-out. [laughing]
- KBKumar Birla
[laughing] They know exactly, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Who they are?
- KBKumar Birla
- that I'm talking about them.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, so yeah, and that, that's a very important part of, uh, you know, just having tra-- casual friendships-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KBKumar Birla
... from your school and, uh, college days, no strings attached. Uh, complete honesty, you know, fight sometime, disagree vehemently with each other. We don't discuss work. Uh, not their work, not my work. It's all about everything other than work.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
But we've been through a lot of ups and down- downs in life together-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... uh, which obviously makes, uh, bonds much closer. I think it's very important having friends, uh, where it's a friendship that's not really seeking anything.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, makes life, uh, that much richer.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Please.
- KBKumar Birla
What about you?
- NKNikhil Kamath
I'm gonna have to... [cutlery clinking] What do we start with?
- KBKumar Birla
I
- 1:26:40 – 1:36:10
Habits | Food & Sports, Varied Interests
- KBKumar Birla
have my favorite sabji here, which is bhindi.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah?
- KBKumar Birla
And I can, I can go for days on end with having just bhindi and paneer.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Really?
- KBKumar Birla
Uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
What is like a typical day of food for you?
- KBKumar Birla
I have, uh, small meals spread out through the day.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
I'm, uh, not someone who loves food. It's more eat to live kind of a thing.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, chocolate is something that... You know, I have a sweet tooth, especially with chocolate.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Favorite chocolate?
- KBKumar Birla
Keeps changing. I mean, it's-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KBKumar Birla
... there's nothing-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right now, something-
- KBKumar Birla
Anything, pr- pretty-- practically anything. These cravings happen-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KBKumar Birla
... after dinner.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, so you almost start to feel like the workout I did didn't, wasn't worth it because everything burnt up in calories. Yeah, but I'm a, I'm a pretty frugal eater. Uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah?
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah, not, not too fussy about it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
What about you?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Uh, so I like more protein, fiber, less carb kind of food. Today, I, I burnt the top part of my mouth 'cause my cook was getting engaged this morning, and he was on holiday. So I made this particular dish, which I make whenever I have to cook.
- KBKumar Birla
South Indian dish?
- NKNikhil Kamath
No, it's like boiled rice with vegetables and chicken and no masala. Very simple. It's one pot.
- KBKumar Birla
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
You put some chicken, you put some vegetables, you put some rice, you maybe add like some pepper and a couple of spices, and you just eat it. It's really clean food.
- 1:36:10 – 1:38:30
Thoughts on Social Media
- KBKumar Birla
when I'm out there.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Are you on social media?
- KBKumar Birla
No.
- NKNikhil Kamath
No?
- KBKumar Birla
You are a lot on social media.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
What made you get onto it?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. Not very active. I would post something maybe once in 10 days or something like that.
- KBKumar Birla
Mm-hmm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Not much about my personal life, really.
- KBKumar Birla
So the objective is what?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. The objective is getting more distribution.
- KBKumar Birla
More distribution in what way?
- NKNikhil Kamath
The more number of people who follow you or who are looking at what you're saying-
- KBKumar Birla
Mm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... is more-- I'm not giving you the, like, superficial answer, but the real answer is it gives you more influence over a wider sect of society.
- KBKumar Birla
And what do you want to do with that influence?
- NKNikhil Kamath
... I mean, that's a very positive thing, but-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
How do you look at it?
- NKNikhil Kamath
I don't know exactly what yet, but if I feel like something has to change in society, it gives me a good mouthpiece to say these contrarian things that maybe I think need to be said, and other people are not saying it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I do get into trouble for saying it, and I constantly change my mind about everything. I go to the extent of thinking that authenticity itself is transient. My authentic self today is going to be different from my authentic self tomorrow. So I do get called out for changing as often as I do. But I feel like I was saying earlier, I think that change is necessary for evolution. If I were to-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is this change all-- changing all the time, which is being irrational, or it's changing because you have evolved and grown, and therefore, you have a different point of view?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Changing because you have more evidence at hand, and now the plice-- pluses and minuses stack up on the other side.
- NKNikhil Kamath
But that's true for most people, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
With new experiences-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... your perspectives change.
- 1:38:30 – 1:49:40
Nikhil’s Transient Point of Views
- NKNikhil Kamath
that you no longer believe in? Something from when you were younger.
- NKNikhil Kamath
No, I don't think, um, I-- there's nothing I can call out.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is there something like that for you? What sort of thing would you, would you be referring to?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Even something like a economic pu- policy. Mm, there might have been times back in the day when I spoke for benevolent capitalism, maybe being stretched as far as being known to be socialist. Mm, now it doesn't make sense to me. At some point, it felt like the right thing for society, too.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What, what made you change your point of view?
- NKNikhil Kamath
I think just more research, and you-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Your own experiences, maybe.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. I feel like in a, in a family, you can be communist almost, if it's your family. With a group of friends, you can be socialist. But as the group becomes wider, I don't think socialism works because trust factor falls very quickly. We don't trust people inherently that we do not know.
- NKNikhil Kamath
That we do not know?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, or have never seen.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So socialism can work for ten people, but I don't know if it can work for ten thousand.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What makes you think about this?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I'm really in- intrigued as to why, why would you think about this? There is something-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Obviously, there is something underlying that makes you want to know more about this.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. I feel like the most interesting question in life is to figure out why we are how we are. Like, I-
- NKNikhil Kamath
No, as individuals.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Individuals extrapolated down to society. I feel like I have no clue why I want what I want, why I do what I do. A large part is it to conform, but outside of that, why did I become the person who thinks that he wants to do A, B, or C? I have no idea. It comes from some interest in psychology and philosophy, one of the two.
- NKNikhil Kamath
When you go back to your childhood, for example-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... you don't see any strains of connect with what you've done professionally?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm. Mm, nothing. If I was fourteen years old, and you asked me, "What do I want to become when I grow up?" I said, "The most conformist thing of the time," which in my vintage was, "I want to be a astronaut or a pilot," or something like that. But I, I can't, I can't paint a bridge from then to now.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Why would that bother you, though?
- NKNikhil Kamath
It, it doesn't really bother me. If I were to leave my profession and all of that aside and think of very innately what I want as a person... Like, if you were to ask me, "Nikhil, you're thirty-eight today, what do you want from life? Why are you the way you are today?" It feels like a interesting thing to ponder about, spend some time dwelling on what made me the way I am, and I think that's all psychology, essentially. Every school of psychology-
- NKNikhil Kamath
You're thinking about more from the point of view of shaping your future or-
- NKNikhil Kamath
No.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Why do you think about it?
- 1:49:40 – 1:55:20
Chapter 3 - Taking Over The Reigns
- NKNikhil Kamath
You started interning. Uh, we go back there, and then what happened next?
- KBKumar Birla
Uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
We're in the year '86, '87, something like that.
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah, I think... Yeah, so I'm working with my father.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, complete my graduation and my CA. Um, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's a lot of work, um, but good work. I mean, it's good. You get rapped on the knuckles once in a way, but you learn to sort of accept that as a way of life. Also, you know, the intent, uh, is right. I also start looking at some of the units independently, and I feel a great sense of almost like gratitude because, uh, all my friends, I mean, their fathers treated them like they were nothing on earth.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, and if I got, uh, the opportunity to have independent charge of fertilizer unit and a cement unit, uh, that really meant a lot, and that was huge learning.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, different time. I mean, my, my father and I would sit, uh, at the end of every month, and he would analyze or want me to analyze all the breakdowns that happened in the f- three, four cement plants that we had, which is quite painful. But it was relevant because at that time, you sold what you made, right? There wasn't anything, any other variable that was important. But, uh, it's just been very boring, and I used to think to myself, "You know, I want to have so many kilns that Papa can't ask me, me to be doing this every month."
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
It was just such a boring thing to do. Uh, but yeah, it was... I, like I said, steep learning curve. Um, I got married in '89. Uh, went off to my MBA after that at, at London Business School, which was, uh, again, huge, uh, learning and very transformational in some ways.
- NKNikhil Kamath
That was post-marriage?
- KBKumar Birla
That was post-marriage.
- NKNikhil Kamath
It says that you only met your wife three or four times pre-marriage.
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah, I mean, that's what, uh, that's how it happened then.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Twice, not even three or four times.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Isn't that awkward?
- KBKumar Birla
So it was quite tough on both of us. Sorry?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Isn't that really awkward to manage?
- KBKumar Birla
It really is.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
But, uh, you know, at that time, in our community, for sure, that's how things... That's how, uh, you know, marriages happened.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
That was just the norm, and you just, uh, kind of flowed with the tide.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. Okay, and then you went off to college in London?
- KBKumar Birla
Went to college, um-
- 1:55:20 – 1:57:15
New Economic Policy In India 1991
- KBKumar Birla
Maybe up until the early '90s as well.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Until India opened up?
- KBKumar Birla
Correct.
- NKNikhil Kamath
... And how did it feel living in that India? Like, I've read about it. I was too young to be cognizant to it. Uh, I must have been, like, five, six years old in '91. How did it feel? What changed on the ground?
- KBKumar Birla
I was quite absorbed with I was doing-- with what I was doing, actually, Nikhil.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
So you didn't know any better.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, it's when India started to open up to the world in '95-
- NKNikhil Kamath
And when you say open up, can you elaborate? What happened when you say open up?
- KBKumar Birla
Liberalization.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
So tariffs started to come down. You had, uh, foreign investors coming into the market in India and investing in your company. Therefore, investor expectations were different because their profile was very different. You know, it was much more competitive. Tariffs came down in India. You had competition literally-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... uh, at the back door.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, therefore, the whole dynamic of running a business changed. Uh, you had to think about strategy, about people, needed new kind of talent, so it was quite a meta- metamorphosis at that point in time.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm. And did you get an investor into your business?
- KBKumar Birla
Um, no, when, when I say investor, I mean, they, they were also investing through the market, right? So the profile of investors-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... who were investing in your company.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
You didn't have private equity really back then, the way you have it now. Um, but when you have a different investor pool investing in the company, then, you know, investor expectations, uh, start to change. You become more accountable. Investors become more vocal.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What do you think of private equity and
- 1:57:15 – 2:00:50
Thoughts on Private Equity/ Venture Capitalists
- NKNikhil Kamath
venture capital today? It's very prevalent in my world, the startup world of today.
- KBKumar Birla
I, I think it's a, a very credible way of, uh, building assets or building, um, businesses. A different world, quite different from, uh, the world of business that I'm in, so to speak. It requires a different kind of, uh, skill set almost.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, but yeah, I think it's a huge source of equity today and capital, and it's a very credible way to grow a business.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you think private equity and venture funds today are a bit like the m- money lenders and zamindars of yesterday?
- KBKumar Birla
[chuckles] I don't think so.
- NKNikhil Kamath
No?
- KBKumar Birla
Um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Crazy-
- KBKumar Birla
Why would you connect the two?
- NKNikhil Kamath
When I think about it, I feel like that. I mean, I do a little bit of both of those things, but whenever a private equity venture guy invests into your company, they have terms which mean that in case of liquidation, they get their money first. Uh, different clauses that make you share your upside. Uh, you know, there's venture debt and what... A whole bunch of, like, nuances there, but in many ways, it feels like somebody who made money somewhere. In case of PE and venture, it might be like, I don't know, LP sitting out of America. It might be some endowment fund, it might be some pension fund. Money coming from somewhere, finding a higher rate of return. It-- There's a lot of commonalities between that and how a money lender of yesterday has worked, right?
- KBKumar Birla
But you sign up to it, right, with your eyes and ears open-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- KBKumar Birla
... so it's fair.
- NKNikhil Kamath
As you did with the money lender.
- KBKumar Birla
Hmm. I think that's a bit of a harsh view on private. You've had a bad, bad experience with it?
- NKNikhil Kamath
No, no, I have not. [chuckles] I have-- We've never raised any capital in any way.
- KBKumar Birla
Hmm. No, I think it's, uh, a lot of it is about chemistry also, eventually, I think.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
No, I think you're taking a pretty harsh view on them.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm. Yeah?
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
No, no, I'm not being harsh. I feel like they, they've serve a very useful purpose of marketing the India story outside of India in order to bring foreign capital into India, and it, it has subsidized consumption for a lot of people in India. We paid lesser for our taxis, paid lesser for food delivery, paid lesser for so many things, and industries grew in India, but on their backs.
- KBKumar Birla
Hmm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So I'm, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just wondering if in a certain way, even money lenders yesterday did similar things.
- KBKumar Birla
I mean, there were atrocities happening back then.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
These guys are what? They're, they're demanding investors.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
And like I said, you pretty much sign up to what they're expecting, right? You wanting to... You, you need to, you need to align, uh, expectations. Um, I mean, but, you know, they have their own- you have the laws of the land that govern them as well. So if you're signing up to an agreement that's, uh, you know, one-sided, then that's something that you're, uh, knowingly signing up to.
- 2:00:50 – 2:05:00
Birla’s brands | Paints & Jewelry insights
- NKNikhil Kamath
chance to redo life today, starting afresh, you're not Kumar Mangalam Birla, but you're just Kumar starting off-
- KBKumar Birla
Hmm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... and you have X amount of capital, let's say a million dollars, what business would you put the money in?
- KBKumar Birla
Today?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Today.
- KBKumar Birla
I mean, there are many of them. That, that, that's always a problem, that there's a problem of plenty.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm. One.
- KBKumar Birla
Difficult to, uh, boil down to one.
- NKNikhil Kamath
You're making bets on paints and jewelry.
- KBKumar Birla
Jewelry retail.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Why?
- KBKumar Birla
... So different reasons, uh, paints because, you know, the industry is moving from being unorganized to more organized. Real estate is looking up. After COVID, people want their own homes. The nuclear family set up in India is kind of giving way to, uh, the joint family set up is giving way to nuclear families. Uh, aspirational Indian want- wants their own home. Home is a sense of achievement, a sense of pride. We also have an overlap with the existing cement business in terms of, uh, the dealership network-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
-which is one of the key, uh, success factors required, uh, in something like paints. So all of that gives us a right to win, so to speak.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Jewelry retail, because we've been in the retail space for almost twenty-five years now, so we understand it fairly well, but that's apparel retail.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, so doing another form of retail, uh, is, you know, logical. Uh, you then go by an empirical evidence of which sector is doing well and for what reason. Jewelry, because again, it, it, it goes back to an aspirational India. People want to feel good, look good. There's really only one national-level player. You have a couple emerging-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Tanishq.
- KBKumar Birla
But, um, since one of the objectives that we have very clearly marked out for ourselves when we get into a new business is that we want to be, uh, in a leadership position, which means number one, number two, at worst number three, the foreseeable future, uh, it ticks the sort of, uh, box on that one as well.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Still ninety-five percent unorganized?
- KBKumar Birla
Jewelry?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
I don't know the percentage, but it is something... You know, it is a sector that's only now becoming more organized in the last few years, I think.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
So that's an opportunity.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Anything else-
- KBKumar Birla
It's also, uh, the trust associated with the brand.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, I'm quite surprised, in the first month we had a thousand people who came with, you know, their gold jewelry and exchanged it for stuff from our store, which I thought was an interesting insight. Uh, so trust obviously plays a very important role in this, uh, in this business.
- 2:05:00 – 2:07:38
What would Nikhil build with 10 CR?
- KBKumar Birla
consolidate here, and it's always an option.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What if a young entrepreneur had lesser money, like, say, one crore rupees or two crore rupees, and wanted to start a business? Is there a industry you think that has so much tailwind that they should really focus on?
- KBKumar Birla
So one crore is just, it's just not enough to start any business-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- KBKumar Birla
... in today's context.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KBKumar Birla
I'd rather just keep it in the bank.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What if it was ten and not one?
- KBKumar Birla
I mean, hypothetical, but again, not so much that you can do. I mean, we're talking about in India where, you know, scale is important. How much can you do with ten crores? You see, what would you do with ten crores?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Me? I can start a jewelry store with ten crores, can't I?
- KBKumar Birla
Jewelry store would be more than that. I think it's about thirty crores.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, like a large one. Like a smaller one I could, right?
- KBKumar Birla
Depends on [chuckles] depends on what's the plan.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. Maybe a lab-grown jewelry, lab-grown gold, low-value jewelry business.
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah, sure. That could be interesting.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right? Like, try to build a brand of it.
- KBKumar Birla
Mm. Then scale on the back of the brand, is that what you're suggesting?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. Like, the novelty will be a brand in the beginning, right? Like, if I can only make jewelry which costs fifty thousand rupees and lower, and use lab-grown and gold, maybe the affordability... The one thing I feel is broken in jewelry stores is whenever people go shopping, it could be a married couple, it could be, say, a father, daughter, uh, the experience of walking into a jewelry store is very overwhelming and daunting. Because often whoever you're taking there to buy them something can pick something that you can't afford. So if there were a jewelry store with a ceiling, let's say, for example, nothing costs more than one lakh rupees-
- KBKumar Birla
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
-almost like a dollar store, but, like, in a different way, I feel the experience of going in there and shopping might be less overwhelming. But it can't be sold like a budget thing.
- KBKumar Birla
So that's almost like a Zudio in the context of apparel.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- KBKumar Birla
I'm gonna have to try it out.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Quite interesting-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right?
- KBKumar Birla
-I think. But it's a different, um, business case altogether.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.... Yeah.
- 2:07:38 – 2:10:27
Advice to young entrepreneurs
- NKNikhil Kamath
Anything else you think, like advice to young entrepreneurs, what should they do now?
- KBKumar Birla
Advice to young entrepreneurs, uh, do what you love doing. Uh, keep the passion going. Get together a, a great team. That's most important. I mean, it's a team that achieves. Uh, you can be a good leader, but without a good team, there's not much that you can do, you know, uh, being just one single person. Uh, I'd say consistency-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Learning agility is very important. There's so much of change in the world today that to stay current and-
- NKNikhil Kamath
How-
- KBKumar Birla
... tweak your, tweak, tweak your business model on the basis of what's happening in the world today, uh.
- NKNikhil Kamath
How do you change like you did? Like, you went from textiles to cement to, like, trying jewelry and paints today. These are all, like, completely different things. Uh, even someone like us, like, you know, we've been doing broking and asset management for a bit, or lending, we don't find it in ourself to be able to change. But people like you, intergenerational families, who pivot so easily, what are you doing that we are unable to do?
- KBKumar Birla
No, I'm not sure you're unable to do it. It's just that you haven't maybe reached, uh, that situation. It, it is, uh... You know, it does cause you to stress- you need you to stress more, stretch more.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
But I think there's also a sense of excitement around that.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
So as India is growing up or grew up-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... new spaces opened up for private enterprise, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
For example, financial services is a case in point.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, there was a point in time, I think around '95, '97, when the AMC mutual funds started to open up-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- KBKumar Birla
... for private sector, then insurance, like that. So you don't wanna miss that opportunity.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, so on and so forth, even with retail. At the end of the day, there is, uh, a national, a trend at, at least national level, if not international, that you are hooking up to. Um, it's also a call on whether you want to be a conglomerate or, uh, you know, one or two businesses.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
And we took a call very early on, I did-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... that we've grown up being a conglomerate-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KBKumar Birla
... and we have str- strengths in running different businesses, uh, and doing that successfully, and that's what we'd like the future paths to be like.
- NKNikhil Kamath
If I can ask you a very personal question: How do
- 2:10:27 – 2:15:08
Time to Pivot in Business | People Management
- NKNikhil Kamath
you know it is the time to pivot? What do you feel in a certain business?
- KBKumar Birla
In a certain?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Business.
- KBKumar Birla
I think, um, uh, you s- you have- you get a sense that now this m- this business is mature enough. Uh, it's because you've been, you know, you're sort of growing with the business, your own understanding, uh, of the business, you know, gets deeper and deeper. It's a feel, it's an instinct.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, I think an entrepreneurial- entrepreneur's instinct is, is a huge factor in this.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So when you feel a business is mature enough, you pivot, and you put your energy behind the new thing? And how does the old ship keep sailing?
- KBKumar Birla
It's not always like that. I mean, that makes it sound [chuckles] very mechanical. But I think that's, that's, uh, you know, that's something that, uh, even if it isn't in a conglomerate situation, if you have mature businesses that have sort of reached a cycle where growth rates are tapering-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- KBKumar Birla
... you need to invest in new engines of growth. And essenc- essentially, that's the model that we have followed, if you look back and study. There's no brilliance, you know, attached to it. It's just, just, uh, common business sense.
- NKNikhil Kamath
How do you step back and let somebody else run the old ship?
- KBKumar Birla
Well, not the old ship, every ship, because like I was saying, uh, we're 180,000 people. Uh, my daughter is involved in some businesses, my son as well. But, you know, for, for the longest, it's just been me. Now, with my kids. So obviously it's not a family-run business, it's basically a people-run business. It's a people's organization. Uh, I think if you... I mean, trust is a very important factor. Uh, that there's something in your DNA which must allow you to trust people.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, you also then, uh, obviously need to, need to choose the right people, and there's some method there, I think. I think if you have ambition, like when I, in '95, when I started out, I had ambition and, uh, I had lim- limited, limited experience. My father had just passed away. And logically, the only way I could build bandwidth, and that stays true even today, was by getting people with more experience on board and with different talents, that talent skill sets that we had in the organization. So I think it's also to do with ambition and passion. Uh, if you want to grow, the only way to grow is to have energized teams. I mean, there's no, uh, you know, there is no other way out. Uh, and that's the fundamental principle on which we are working.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. I, I feel like I have a lot to learn from you in this. Is there something you look for in people when you're doing this pivot, from the people you're hiring? Is there something in particular?
- KBKumar Birla
So there, there's two, two kinds of people, those who've grown up in the organization... So I have about, uh, 4,000 people who've been with me for-... twenty-plus years. With people like that, you know them pretty much.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yes.
- KBKumar Birla
I mean, I don't, I may not know all of them-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
-but HR would, other people in the system would. So that's, that's, you know, being a meritocracy. You have a track record within the company, and a meritocracy means that you're pretty much, uh, getting ahead, uh, basis the merit that you've earned for yourself. For people from outside, um, it's, it's a gut feel. You look at their track record, you speak to them, you, you do sound referencing. It's a gut feel. I mean, you think... I, I look at people, uh, and I ask myself: Can they handle complexity? Uh, are they agile learners? Uh, and would they be able to lead large and diverse teams of people? And that, that sense you can only get with, uh, talking to them, right? There's no other way. Uh, so I think more than just, uh, res- referencing, it's, it's about your own instinct-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right
- KBKumar Birla
... your own, own, uh, uh, experience, uh, with, uh, different kinds of profiles of people.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Um, so it is a leap of, leap of faith at the end of the day.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. They say that when people are on their deathbed, the things that they
- 2:15:08 – 2:17:20
Kumar on Intentional Living
- NKNikhil Kamath
often regret are things like, "Why did I work so hard? Why did I worry about how I'm being perceived? Uh, why didn't I spend time with my friends?" Stuff like that. What do you think it will be for you? What would be the regret?
- KBKumar Birla
I mean, I, I don't know, uh, to be honest, Nikhil. I don't know if there are going to be regrets. I mean-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KBKumar Birla
... uh, but I think that, um, especially in the last fifteen years, I'd say I've lived life quite thoughtfully. Uh, and I mean, life's been kind. Uh, I've had more challenges. Life has thrown me more, uh, curveballs on the left side than, uh, I can even sort of talk about it. One can-- anyone can, could even imagine. But, um, you know, there have been so many things on the positive side as well. So one feels a sense of gratitude. I don't think at this point of time, [chuckles] if I was to die, be on my death bed, bed today, I don't think there's anything I'd hugely regret. I mean, I've never had, for example, a work-life balance, but that's been by choice for, for various reasons, right or wrong. It's not happened by default. There have been reasons behind it, which to me, uh, are logical, well thought through. Um, I, I don't think that there is any such regret I would have. Of course, if I have another thirty years to live, at least, the situation might change. Uh, but yeah, I mean, God's been kind. I don't, I don't have any... I mean, regret would be, for example, I wish my father was there for longer. That's not something you regret at the end of life. I mean, that's... Your regret is about to do with life choices that you have made. So I think so far it's gone well.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm. Nice. I think that's it. We've covered all that we wanted to today. Thank you for, uh, doing this.
- KBKumar Birla
No, it's been interesting, Nikhil. You're doing, uh, a great, uh, job of, uh, this, and I'm, I know a lot of people
- 2:17:20 – 2:18:29
Closing Thoughts
- KBKumar Birla
watch your podcasts and, uh, you know, I'm, I'm sure draw inspiration from them.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Any fleeting words to the many young entrepreneurs who will be so inspired by watching this? Anything that you want to tell them which is non-obvious, someone looking to start up?
- KBKumar Birla
I think the power of, uh, consistency-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KBKumar Birla
... the soft power of consistency, something that we don't always, uh, value.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- KBKumar Birla
Uh, that's, in my experience, very important. As you grow in your careers, you start to realize that. It's good to know that early on.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Nice. [upbeat music] Thank you so much for doing this-
- KBKumar Birla
Thank you for your time
- NKNikhil Kamath
... and taking the time with us.
- KBKumar Birla
It's been a pleasure.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Thank you. Thanks, guys. Thanks, everyone. [chuckles] Is it okay?
- KBKumar Birla
Yeah, yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
We shot quite a bit, huh?
- KBKumar Birla
You're quite an intense guy, huh?
- NKNikhil Kamath
[chuckles] Three and a half hours. But it was good, I think.
- KBKumar Birla
...
- NKNikhil Kamath
Huh?
- KBKumar Birla
...
- NKNikhil Kamath
No, no.
- KBKumar Birla
You think so much. [chuckles] Wow, Nikhil!
Episode duration: 2:18:30
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