Nikhil KamathNikhil Kamath x NZ PM Christopher Luxon | People by WTF Ep #7
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
45 min read · 8,850 words- 0:00 – 1:19
Introduction
- NKNikhil Kamath
[upbeat music] Are we set, guys? [upbeat music] How should I address you? Prime Minister Chris-
- CLChristopher Luxon
Chris is fine. [chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, you sure?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Absolutely.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So, Chris, I'm not going to go the usual path of an interview. I think this is more a conversation.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And I went to the match recently, the India-New Zealand cricket final.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Oh, my goodness. I was hoping you wouldn't... This, this podcast was going so well-
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughing]
- CLChristopher Luxon
... until you had to go mention that.
- SPSpeaker
[upbeat music]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hi, Chris. Thank you for doing this.
- CLChristopher Luxon
It's so awesome to be with you, and with such a celebrated entrepreneur like yourself, so it's great to be with you.
- NKNikhil Kamath
How should I address you? Prime Minister Chris-
- CLChristopher Luxon
Chris is fine. [chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, you sure?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Absolutely. Absolutely.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Uh,
- 1:19 – 2:38
PM Christopher on his Experience with India
- NKNikhil Kamath
well, welcome to India. I saw bits of you going to different places in India. How has that been so far? I saw you with the Prime Minister, I saw you at the gurudwara-
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... at a cricket game.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah. It's been absolutely magical.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
I mean, we've had a fantastic four to five days here in India. Um, and essentially, you know, India's a place that I first got to know when I was working at Unilever, and we had a very large business here called Hindustan, uh, Lever.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
And as a result, I used to come here in my probably mid to late 20s. And, you know, when I think about how it has progressed from when I first visited to, to where I am today, it's just so, so inspiring. I mean, it's such a ambitious, aspirational, can-do, positive kind of place, and you just see the trajectory that it has been on, that it is now, and then it's on now for the future, and it's just... It's all about growth, and it's all about energy and, um, drive and determination, and it's just really, really f- you know, contagious. So, uh, it's awesome to be here. I brought the biggest delegation of any prime minister on any visit-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... that we've had from New Zealand, and I had a big business delegation-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... and also a community delegation, and also, um, our indigenous kapa haka, our team, performing arts team, with us, as well.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- CLChristopher Luxon
So, you know, it's been a very full-on set of four or five days, but, you know, these are two great countries-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- CLChristopher Luxon
... that should have a closer relationship-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- CLChristopher Luxon
... and, uh, be a much deeper, broader relationship.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I saw this,
- 2:38 – 4:06
Haka in New Zealand’s Parliament
- NKNikhil Kamath
uh, member of Parliament, I'd like to say, performing the haka at Parliament.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yes. [laughing]
- NKNikhil Kamath
It looked so good.
- CLChristopher Luxon
[laughing]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Can you tell us a bit about that? What was that?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Well, look, it's really, um, you know, our kapa haka, which is our Maori performing arts.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Maori are the indigenous people-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- CLChristopher Luxon
... of New Zealand. Uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
My brother has a Maori tattoo from there.
- CLChristopher Luxon
He does a tattoo. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's... They just-
- NKNikhil Kamath
They do it with a nib, right? Like they just poking.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah, you got it, you got it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- CLChristopher Luxon
You got it. And, um, they're just incredible because actually, you know, right from... You know, New Zealand's been a very innovative country. If you think about these, uh, Maori Polynesian navigators-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... they navigated by the stars and came through the Pacific Ocean and, and to New Zealand. Uh, and so it's actually awesome to be able to bring them with me here because, um, you know, what I really appreciate is, is, you know, when you run into Indians, they've got huge appreciation for culture, your own culture.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
It's thousands of years of civilization that's just incredibly mesmerizing and interesting, and I think, uh, there's huge respect for Maori culture as well, and it's a great way also to make the connections at a human connections level or people-to-people level.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. Yeah.
- CLChristopher Luxon
So I'm really proud of bringing some of our best exponents of it, uh, to, to India, and I actually think they are due to, at some point, go perform in front of the Taj Mahal later on this weekend, which I think will be pretty awesome. Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
[chuckles] Looking at you from this close, your eyes are a very interesting color.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Are they? [laughing]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. [laughing] What color are they?
- CLChristopher Luxon
[laughing] Well, they're just, um... I think they're green. I think they might be like-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah?
- CLChristopher Luxon
... yeah, green. So, um, yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- CLChristopher Luxon
They seem to work. I seem to be able to see things pretty well, which is the main thing. [laughing]
- 4:06 – 6:41
Family & Prioritizing Responsibilities
- NKNikhil Kamath
So I was going through your social media bio-
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... and amongst other things, it said, "First a husband..."
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yes
- NKNikhil Kamath
... "then a father, then a brother, then a son-
- CLChristopher Luxon
Mm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... and then New Zealand Prime Minister."
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yes.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is that how you view life?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Well, I think, um, you know, I've had the fortunate position of meeting lots of interesting people over my career in business and, and in the last four years in politics, and I always think it's not what you do, it's actually who you are that matters much more.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
If you put all of your identity into a title, uh, and, uh, into some s- perceived status, that then will come and go, and if you put all your identity into that stuff, uh, rather than actually who you are as an individual or a person, and what kind of person you're becoming is much more interesting. You know, at some point, I will no longer be Prime Minister of New Zealand-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... and it'll be a, a tremendous honor, and it's a great responsibility, and I absolutely love this job, but I'm not defined by the job. And I think it's... Uh, I've seen a lot of people get very defined by their job titles on their business cards, and when that goes away, they, they shatter themselves because they've put all their identity and store into that, that title. So that's all I think is, uh, just my approach to life in general.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Can I also ask why husband and father first, and then brother and son? 'Cause those are older relationships, in a way.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah, it's just, um... Well, I mean, we're very close with my wife's family and my own family.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
But I was very fortunate that I met my wife, Amanda, when I was 15 years old.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
And we were dating at 19 and married at 23, and then we traveled the world together with my business career and then had our children overseas. And so, um, I'm always very grateful that I, I married up and, uh, get to do life with Amanda as my, my life partner. It's pretty special. And then obviously, I've got two children, William and Olivia, and, um, and we've been a very tight foursome because, you know, I left New Zealand as a 24-year-old. I was overseas for 16 years, and we had our children overseas without a lot of family support around us, obviously. Uh, and we became a very tight unit. Um, but equally, you know, I've got two younger brothers and an awesome mum and dad, and, um, who we're all very close with as well. So, um, so family's everything, right? I mean, it's everything. It's where we learn how to behave. It's wh- how we learn to... Uh, it, actually the building block of our community. Uh, and so at the end of the day-... I want to be able to get to 90 years old, look back on my life-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
-and be able to put my arm around my adult son and say, "You know, we- our relationship's awesome," you know? What you've achieved in life will be interesting to a point, but as I keep saying, who you are and the relationships that you have, uh, is what life's ultimately all about.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So Chris, I'm not going to
- 6:41 – 9:41
Transition from Business to Politics
- NKNikhil Kamath
go the usual path of an interview. I think this is more a conversation.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And I will not ask you many of the questions that you have been asked already, uh, maybe the Khalistani thing or the nuclear thing or New Zealand's relationship with China, India, and so on and so forth. My audience is largely people who are working in a company-
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... or looking to start a company. I'm very interested in your transition from Unilever to Air New Zealand to being a politician today. Uh, that seems to hap- be happening everywhere in the world right now as a trend. I, I could draw an analogy to Trump, and I want to ask you questions about that.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Mm-hmm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
How that transition felt like. Would you like to begin by describing it in your own words and tell me, A, was it worth it, and, B, why the transition?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah, look, it is tremendously worth it. It's a, it's a... I mean, the privilege of being able to lead a country is really very, very special. Um, you know, it's incredibly challenging, but it's also y- you know, very, very rewarding. And you want to go to that job because you've bought into this notion of public service, and actually, you're there to actually improve the livelihoods of your citizens, and that's very much my motivation. So I'm not a career politician, which is very unusual in New Zealand.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Um, I have come from outside the system, but I actually think that's really good-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... because you have a different outside in perspective on what needs to change or what, what you want to do, um, or how you think the country can be better. And I just feel New Zealand has so much potential, that actually there's a real opportunity for us to actually get things sorted and solved for people so they actually get a better quality of life, and actually, I genuinely buy into that. Um, with respect to the business to the politics transition, um, I always felt I wanted to go do something else before I'd come to political life, because I think-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Did you always think that?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
That you would come to political life?
- CLChristopher Luxon
At some point, I always thought I would, or I'd like to think I would, um, or have the opportunity to do so. But essentially, um, you know, the reason for that is very simply that, ah, you know, I, I really think a- actually doing something else before you come to political life is often very, very helpful because you understand more of the world, and you understand more of what, ah, people are... You know, how you can actually help people, how you can deal with them.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Um, so for me, yeah, having a business career was something I always wanted to do, but I always think that the, the skills from some of that is very transferable into my job. It's not the same thing running a company as it is a country.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
It's actually completely different, and very different, uh, on a number of levels. But the principles by which you do that, the way that you lead, the way that you build a team of ministers to actually deliver the agenda, to actually get things done, is very, very similar. And so some of the same principles that I learnt in business actually are very applicable now into this role as, as Prime Minister.
- NKNikhil Kamath
A lot of people ask me if I will ever be in politics.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yes. What do you think?
- NKNikhil Kamath
I, I have no intent-
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yes
- NKNikhil Kamath
... whatsoever, at least not today. But
- 9:41 – 12:39
How Business Skills Affect Politics?
- NKNikhil Kamath
what is one skill that is serving you well in politics that you picked up in business, and what is one thing that is not working out for you?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Well, I think the first thing is, um, the... This notion of: How do you protect and enhance the good things that have either happened in a country or a company? Uh, that, that, that principle's the same. And, and then also, how do you provoke and stimulate change? And actually, if it's all provoke and stimulate change, turning everything upside down, that never works. But if it's also just more incrementalism and more of the same, that also doesn't work. And I think the task of a leader, whether you're a CEO or a prime minister, is to find that balance. Protect and enhance the good stuff. Uh, make sure you stimulate and provoke change on new things that will actually move the agenda forward-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... move a country or move an organization forward.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Um, but coming into politics, you know, the way I looked at it was that I was really... You know, I'd gone from playing cricket to now playing hockey. You know, like, it's actually, you had to, uh, start from the beginning and not come in assumptive that just because you've been as successful in one sphere of life-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... that you're immediately gonna be successful in another sphere.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Uh, and so actually being prepared to start at the beginning and actually be humble and learn what you need to know, uh, in order to help you move forward in your political career was very important to me. So, um, yeah, that's how I approached life, was-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... just be curious about it, ah, and actually, you know, learn and, and focus on learning, and the rest takes care of itself.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So you're saying curiosity and learning that you learnt in business serves you well, is good for politics?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah, I, I think when I've sat down with... You know, I remember sitting in Chicago, where I lived for a long time, with a bunch of quite high-powered CEOs-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... and realizing that actually, academically, maybe they were all B-plus-type students, you know, smart enough people.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
But when you say, "Why are they successful and why are others not?" I think it comes down to, do you have really good character in terms of a good, even temperament? I'm not someone who goes really high or low. Uh, I don't catastrophize when things go badly.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
I don't go bananas when everything's going well. Uh, I just stay pretty even at a, at an, at a, at an emotional level and a temperament level, but I think the character really matters. I think curiosity, that you're keen to keep learning new things, is really important, um, and you never stop learning. Um, and you've actually just got to be smart enough to learn new things.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Uh, I think, you know, communication skills are critical, and also the other piece is conflict management skills. We're in the people business, in politics, actually, um, and that requires good levels of EQ in terms of managing egos and personalities and people, uh, and all those things that you do to build good teams. You know, that, that's very transferable into political life as well. So you know, I think those are the skills that actually say, you know, yes, I've got commercial skills. Yes, I have a good economics orientation at a time when our economy's been somewhat challenged in recent years. Um, we're coming through that, but, you know, that's been quite helpful, having that, that business commercial orientation. But I think the bigger piece is actually just the, the, the leadership skills that you have from one field to another are transferable if you can think through how to deploy them in often quite a different context.
- 12:39 – 14:10
Handling with the Highs & Lows
- NKNikhil Kamath
... And when you say you don't emote the highs and lows, I'm assuming you're not as reactive as the next person. Are you not feeling the emotion, or are you not projecting the emotion?
- CLChristopher Luxon
No, I mean, I- no, I, I feel it, um, but the question is, I also, you know, do things like I'm fully informed about social media, but I'm not consumed by it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Because otherwise, there's so many critics out there that you'd never get out of bed in the morning, right, if your, if your whole life was defined by what comments are are said about you on social media. So that's a, a way in which you make sure that you're not bounced around, [chuckles] uh, by, by people who you- who, um, you may or may not choose to take advice from. And so, um, you know, that, that to me is... I've got a very good set of friends, and mentors, and, and, uh, family around me that keep me really grounded. And so for me, I'm just not- I'm a person who's always believed that, you know, like, good sports teams, you don't... You know, when you see good... You know, I, I study a lot of coaches and, and captains of sports teams because it's the same dynamic. In politics, people often think of it as an individual, ego-driven game.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Um, but actually, I've determined, in the work that we've done with our team, is now we're in a team game. I can play the position on the team-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... I may be opening bat, bat, uh, or whatever, uh, but I need a, a really fast bowler, I need a spin bowler, I need a, you know, you need different people on the team-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... uh, that can play their position, and are world-class at it, and do a really good job. And it's about my job as captain, is to make sure I get the right people in the right places on the right assignments, with great clarity about what we're trying to achieve and what success looks like.
- 14:10 – 16:28
PM Christopher on Dealing with Critique & Social Media
- NKNikhil Kamath
This not allowing critique or social media affect you is a superpower in today's world, almost. When I look back in time in history, a king's son always knew he would be king one day, and was probably prepared for the good and bad of being in that place where everybody has an opinion. Uh, I'd love to learn this. For somebody who's a first-generation politician, who I could maybe presume did not particularly know for sure that you would be a politician up until a few years ago, how did you inculcate that skill of not letting the criticism affect you?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Well, I think it just comes back to life. Whether you're a community leader, whether you're a political leader, or a business leader, it's the same principle, which is that ultimately, um, I am a person who gets very connected to the mission and purpose that I'm doing. I came to political life, I came home from overseas, back home to New Zealand, I came into politics because I genuinely am connected to the mission of New Zealand's an awesome country, and it's got so much more potential, and I genuinely wanna do that. Uh, beyond that, uh, I listen to what people have. I take advice. That's, that's ex- a very important thing, to be able to take on board feedback. But I'm not gonna sit there and get bounced around by some comment on social media, for goodness' sake. You know, like-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... honestly, um, you know, everyone can have their opinions, but not all opinions are equal. Uh, I choose not to take, you know, advice from people on social media if that's- if I don't want to. Uh, so I get to choose that. There is a moment between stimulus and response as to how you choose to, to respond to that stimulus. So for me, it's I'm informed about what's going on, uh, but I don't need to be consumed, and I'm not on my phone-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... uh, looking at what everyone's saying.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- CLChristopher Luxon
And I think that's really sad when people get that way-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- CLChristopher Luxon
... because actually, that's the real human-to-human connections and relationships that you wanna be investing your time in.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
We all have 24 hours in a day, and the question is: What do you do with your time? And are you gonna... And I think when you get to the end of life-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... and I've spent time talking to people in their 70s, and 80s, and 90s-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... and asking them about what their life's like, it's about the quality of the relationships that they have, not how much money they've made or what status they've had. That's all very interesting, but actually, it's the quality of the relationships and the impact you've had with people that will ultimately matter.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I think that's very well said. A lot of people can learn from that. Uh,
- 16:28 – 18:57
The Role of Money in Politics
- NKNikhil Kamath
when I think about who could be politicians in society next, I'm thinking artists, entrepreneurs, business people. If I were to assume that money is a precondition to success in politics, the, the logical path would almost be for businessmen to become politicians, like we see happening in different pockets of the world. Also, excellence in business, in managing people, like you said, is a big talent that translates into politics as well. Do you agree with the role of money in politics?
- CLChristopher Luxon
No. I mean, we come from a political system in New Zealand where, um, [tsk] money... You know, we have very tight, uh, laws around campaign financing.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
And so, uh, we don't have the challenges that I observe in other countries around the world or other democracies, where money buys influence. Um, we have very strict and independent electoral commission laws. I think, uh, in an electoral campaign, you can't spend more than 26,000 New Zealand dollars, uh, where every member of parliament, every candidate, is allowed to spend up to that amount, but you can't legally spend over that. There isn't... Uh, so I think those are the, you know, we've got very tight laws around that. So actually, in my sto- in New Zealand, my story in politics is not very common.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Actually, uh, the more common pathway is people coming out of university, working as staffers in a political party, um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... or in a government-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... becoming a member of parliament, then becoming a minister. Uh, actually, that, that hasn't been the story of someone like me coming from outside in the way that I have.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Most countries, I think, have these laws, Chris, even in the US.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
But, uh, I think political parties find ways to circumvent them.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yes, I'm just saying to you, in New Zealand-
- NKNikhil Kamath
[chuckles]
- CLChristopher Luxon
... we have very strict laws.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- CLChristopher Luxon
And as a result... And you see it in some Scandinavian countries as well, uh, where that is just not, not negotiable for us. Um, there is just no way for that to happen.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Uh, so, you know, there is really tight caps of spending. It's very, very small amounts of money-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... relative to people running for office in local government, even in, in, in US cities, uh, or towns. Uh, but um, we like it that way, because it means that then money isn't the reason for which someone can't run as a parliamentarian. And if you look at our parliament, you know, what you want to see is diversity. You want to see people from all walks of life. As you said, artists, police officers, school teachers-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... business people. Um, uh, yeah, we want to see a real diversity.
- NKNikhil Kamath
... um,
- 18:57 – 20:06
Stakeholders vs. Citizens: The Tougher Audience?
- NKNikhil Kamath
who is harder to deal with, shareholders at your previous role or voters today?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Oh, I think, um, without a doubt, the public. I mean, you're dealing with much more substantive issues-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... about whether they're getting a dividend or return. You know, the most important thing is actually to imple- improve the lives of New Zealanders. And so, um, yeah, and they have high expectations of us to deliver for them-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... and to improve public services, to grow the economy, uh, to keep them safe, and have good law and order. Actually, I'm here to do the very best I can with, with what I know to improve the lot of New Zealand and my fellow citizens. And, um, and that's, that's what the mission is. And so, um, you know, but as a result, there's huge expectations, um, and quite rightly so.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm. I went to the match recently, the India-New Zealand cricket final. I know you follow-
- CLChristopher Luxon
In Dubai?
- NKNikhil Kamath
In Dubai.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Oh, my goodness. I was hoping you would... This, this podcast was going so well-
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughing]
- CLChristopher Luxon
... until you had to go mention that. Um, I haven't raised at all that 3-0, uh, whitewash test series that we had here.
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughing]
- CLChristopher Luxon
Um, I actually was down playing a little bit of cricket at the stadium-
- NKNikhil Kamath
I heard
- CLChristopher Luxon
... here in Mumbai just today, just this morning-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- CLChristopher Luxon
... uh, with Ajaz Patel, who took 10 for 119 here, so, um... And is a son of Mum- Mumbai as well.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Now, a New Zealander.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- 20:06 – 22:01
New Zealand’s Sheep-to-People Ratio
- NKNikhil Kamath
Uh, in the stadium, there were, I don't know, 50,000 people.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
49,950 of them-
- CLChristopher Luxon
[laughing]
- NKNikhil Kamath
... were wearing a blue T-shirt. [laughing]
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yes. [laughing]
- NKNikhil Kamath
And there were 50 of New Zealanders in the crowd as well, but that brought me to a very interesting analogy, that I heard somewhere that the sheep-to-supermodel ratio-
- CLChristopher Luxon
[laughing]
- NKNikhil Kamath
... is highest in New Zealand.
- CLChristopher Luxon
[laughing] I have no idea about that.
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughing]
- CLChristopher Luxon
I have no idea about that. But what I can tell you is, yes, look, I mean, we're a country of 5.5 million people-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- CLChristopher Luxon
... and we live in a, in an incredible landscape and land, uh, called New Zealand. Uh, that's the size of Japan or size of the UK.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Uh, and how lucky are we? Because with all respect to my Indian friends, we live in the best country on planet Earth.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
And so we're really lucky to live there. But New Zealanders constantly punch above their weight. You know, that's, that's the nature of our country-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- CLChristopher Luxon
... is if you think about it, because we're at the edge of the world-
- NKNikhil Kamath
I'm sorry, I meant supermodel-to-sheep ratio.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Supermodels. [laughing]
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughing] The other way around.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Ei- either way, I have no idea.
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughing]
- CLChristopher Luxon
It's not one of the stats that I get to see regularly.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- CLChristopher Luxon
But, um, but, you know, really, this is a country that is at the edge of the world, and therefore, it has a lot to offer the world.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Because it's when you have to be resourceful-
- 22:01 – 23:25
Growing Investments & Economy in NZ
- NKNikhil Kamath
an entrepreneur investor, if there is one thing that I can do with New Zealand from the capitalistic lens to benefit, what would it be, as an Indian entrepreneur?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Well, I think, you know, we were very fortunate, actually, just last week, we had, um, uh, actually 107 organizations come down from 16 different countries-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... with $6.5 trillion worth of, of money to invest, uh, to, to make that exact case to them. That's why we've just launched actually what we call the Active Investor Visa.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
You know, if you want to put $5 million New Zealand into-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... investment in New Zealand, uh, there's a pathway to residency in three years. And so it's doing-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Much like the US.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yes, well, they copied us, after us.
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughing]
- CLChristopher Luxon
But, uh, [laughing] but, you know, that sort of-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... proposition doesn't exist in the UK or Australia now, really, and but that's a great opportunity for us to get that connectivity. Because New Zealand, despite our distance, uh, and, and, and where we are placed in the world, we are not an inward-looking people, we're a very outward-looking people. You know, we have, uh, one-fifth of our country living overseas on any given day of the week. Um, so we are very engaged in the world, despite our remoteness at times-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... um, or our geography. And so, you know, that's why, you know, we want to welcome people to New Zealand so that we can actually get more of those connections together, so that we can actually, you know, deepen the relationships. 'Cause when you deepen relationships, you talk about the possibilities of what you and I could do together. We get to know each other, then you put some plans together, and you get some results. So the bigger the relationships, always the bigger the results.
- 23:25 – 26:15
Parallels in USA & NZ Politics
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you like the US model, Chris? A lot of... I heard a lot of your interviews over the last many years. Uh, there are many similarities in the direction America is taking and you seem to be taking. Uh, I even heard that you spoke to Trump recently. I mean, in terms of him talking about meritocracy, lesser weightage on DEI, businessmen in politics, the DOGE getting corporates to come in and try to fix politics in a very corporate way. Are there many similarities between what you're doing and what they are?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Uh, no, I don't thi- yeah, we're following our own path. And, you know, I've been in office now for 16 months, and-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- CLChristopher Luxon
... you know, we've inherited a really challenging set of economic circumstances. And we went to our election in New Zealand saying, "We want to rebuild the economy, we want to restore law and order-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... and we need to deliver better health and education outcomes for New Zealanders." So, yeah, I get, you know, some of the parallels people make, uh, with any country, people might, uh, you know, might make those assumptions, but it's definitely not the case for us. It's about our own... plotting our own course, and saying what's right for New Zealand. And we want to embrace more science, technology, innovation. We want world-class infrastructure. We need to make sure it's an easy place to do business, with little bureaucracy, and we need to make sure we attract trade and investment. Equally, for our most vulnerable citizens, we want to invest in what we call social investment, which is actually using our community organizations, and actually get the money out of the bureaucracy into those organizations to get better health and educational outcomes, and social outcomes for people.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
And obviously, we've got a big commitment to, you know, net zero 2050.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Uh, and in fact, our latest plan, which we, we have legislated into our, our parliament, um, you know, even says we might even get there six years early. So, you know, we want to be able to deliver on our emissions targets, we want to be able to make sure we invest and, and make powerful interventions in people's lives, so that they get to get a better shot, uh, and obviously, improve the living standards for everybody.
- NKNikhil Kamath
... when you said you're into your term halfway almost already, is it a problem that the term in New Zealand is as short as it is? Like, in India, the incumbent leader has been in his position for a prolonged duration, which has given us a certain sense of stability in policymaking and even, like, the direction the country will move in. Is it a problem that the terms are so short?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah, I mean, I personally am a supporter of extending our terms to four years.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- CLChristopher Luxon
I mean, obviously, here in India, you have a five-year term. The UK has a five-year term. Uh, Australia and New Zealand, I think, have, uh, one of the few countries that have three-year terms. Most, on average, have four.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Um, I just think it would give, um, governments more time to deliver, and then for voters to ultimately make a decision as to whether they are or are not delivering. Uh, but having said all of that, that's not a decision that I want to lead. That should be one that's led by the New Zealand people.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
And so we have a bill going into our parliament, uh, now for extending the term from three to four years, and it's actually ultimately for the New Zealand people who will make that decision.
- NKNikhil Kamath
When you
- 26:15 – 28:45
PM Christopher on Meeting Trump
- NKNikhil Kamath
spoke to President Trump, can I ask one thing? I know this is a very tough question to answer, and maybe I should not ask it, but one thing you like about him and one thing you do not?
- CLChristopher Luxon
No, I'm not gonna go there, because actually, it's not for me to comment on my relationships or conversations I have with other world leaders. I mean, my job and what I enjoy doing is, is building a relationship with each of the leaders that I deal with around the world-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... who are all different. Um, and, you know, the US has been a long-standing partner of New Zealand-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... for a very long period of time. And so, you know, it was, it was very good of President Trump, frankly, to call me-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... after he'd been, uh, you know, had won the election, to-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
We had a good 20-minute chat. We talked a lot about actually, um, the issues that we see in the Indo-Pacific region, and we've subsequently had good interactions with our foreign ministers and Secretary of State, and also our, our defense ministers as well.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Could you tell maybe in... Fair, that question is a complex one and maybe should not have been asked, but is there one thing in his form of governance that you think the world will be served well in adopting, in President Trump's?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Look, I'm not... I'm, I'm just really not gonna go-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you think DOGE is a good idea?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Well, again, uh, it's about making sure you've got a public... I, I'm not gonna talk about US domestic politics-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- CLChristopher Luxon
... because I'm not responsible for the US.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- CLChristopher Luxon
But what I can do as the parallel in New Zealand is to make sure that my public service is as efficient as it possibly can be, and that it's focused on delivering for New Zealanders. And I do think in the public service, and you think about the bureaucracies that exist in many countries around the world, um, is the question is: how do you make it deliver so that it's always focused on the people? And sometimes that gets lost. And so in my case, what I'm doing is making sure that I want them to think of themselves as large service organizations that have customers. And if you build customer centricity into any organization, as you well know from your own background, um, we want the public servants of New Zealand to be thinking that they are there to serve patients who need healthcare services and need quality a- access to, to timely healthcare. Uh, we want to make sure that they are understanding their job, going into work today, is to improve reading and mathematical outcomes for our kids. Um, we wanna make sure that infrastructure is getting built, and roads, and stuff. So I've spent a lot of time looking at other small advanced economies, and if you look at, say, Singapore-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... they've got a very effective public service-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... and I've actually spent a lot of time studying that, that system. I think there's a, a huge opportunity across government, around the world, but certainly in my own country, to leverage technology, to really, um, make sure it, it, it deliver- you know, that the public service and the government is delivering for its people. And I just don't... Um, I think we've got a lot of opportunity there, uh, but it's about a customer mentality.
- NKNikhil Kamath
If
- 28:45 – 31:54
Journey of Entrepreneurship to Politics
- NKNikhil Kamath
I were to bring it back to the entrepreneur turning into the politician, I don't have intent of being a politician, but for many people like me, I hope there are more people going from the corporate world to politics in India. Is there any advice you would like to give? What skill sets should they focus on acquiring?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Well, I think you have to go, being prepared to unlearn things that may have made you successful in one job and one career.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Can you elaborate? That's very interesting.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Well, just, you've got to unlearn some stuff, and you've got to learn some new things.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
And, you know, the way that you run companies is different from what's involved in politics. Politics, you're getting into policy areas that are often very layered, very nuanced, very, you know, um, complex.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Uh, and sometimes you just can't hit those simplistically. You've got to be able to work your way through it. Now, your, your training and your discipline of how to attack a problem and how to define a problem, put a common sense solution to it, I think is, you know, something that I've learnt from my business life as well-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... is that governments don't do problem definition well. Um, and therefore, the solutions are often look- roaming around in search of problems to attach to. So I think, um, you know, from my point of view, it's being prepared to start from the bottom and actually say, "I'm in a whole new thing." I have gone from playing cricket to hockey, and I want to be really great at cricket, which I was.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
And now I'm going to be really great at hockey. Um, well, what do I... What skills do I have to learn that are different? And that means mastering the policy areas. It means understanding how the parliament works.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
It's being connected to your party and, most importantly, delivering for people. And so, you know, that's what I encourage our new members of Parliament to think about as well.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I think it was Malcolm Gladwell who once said that-
- CLChristopher Luxon
Great podcast, Revisionist History.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Uh, I think, I think he once said that it's probably a good thing that politicians are not too efficient, 'cause that way, not too much can change at once, which might be risky for the world.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah, look, I think it comes back to that balance, which is if, if everything's just incrementally on, on how we've always done things-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... it doesn't get you there.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Equally, if it's all chaos and it's everything's turned upside down, that doesn't get you there. And what you've really got to do is blend both those things.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Protect the good and... Protect and enhance the good stuff, right? That's actually made a society work really well. Understand it, understand what's made it, made it successful, make sure you enhance, protect it. But on the other hand, you've got to challenge and provoke it as well, otherwise you don't get any growth. You don't get any, um... You, you, you don't position your country, your organization, your team, uh, in the right way. And so for me, it is actually getting both those bits right. You know, understand how you want to stimulate and provoke challenge, uh, but equally, protect and enhance the good stuff. And I, and I think that's the... I think it's a better way to go, because I think the public now across the world, um, and, uh, in my experience in New Zealand as well, is that they want delivery. They're sick of politicians talking and bumper stickers. They actually want, "Help me improve my education. Help me improve my healthcare outcomes. Help me get rid of the congestion that I'm dealing with, and I'm wasting all this time in traffic. Uh, build me proper infrastructure. You know, um, grow this economy so I've each got more choices and more money in my pocket, so I can live the life that I want to live." So, you know, that's about delivery. It's about delivery.
- NKNikhil Kamath
... Chris,
- 31:54 – 36:12
Career Switch from & to Politics
- NKNikhil Kamath
when you were heading Unilever, if a career politician applied for a job as your deputy, would you hire him?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Well, again, it's, it's, it's not because of what they've done, it's who they are. So, you know, um, a lot of politicians really struggle coming out of polit- political life-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... and doing the switch from hockey to cricket, [chuckles] essentially, you know? They, they really don't fit going into the business world, because they're not prepared to do the same things that we just talked about. You know, they also have to humble themselves and start at the bottom again, and not just assume that they're gonna be able to-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... become a director of a company because they've been a politician.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
It's not actually about business people going into politics or polit- or politicians coming into the business world. What you're trying to do, if you're a community leader leading a nonprofit, if you are a business leader, as you have been-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... um, or are, and or political leader, you really want the principles of great organizations, is what you're interested in, and good leadership.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
And there are many businesses that are very badly run with very bad CEOs, that actually don't do a very good job at all. And therefore, just because they're CEOs, doesn't mean they're gonna make great politicians. It's not about that. It's about the principles of building great organizations and, and great leadership.
- NKNikhil Kamath
If I were to generalize what you're saying a little bit, you're also saying that it's easier for a businessman to tran- transition to politics than it is for a politician to transition to business, because the former is more efficient, that can be translated into politics?
- CLChristopher Luxon
No, I disagree. I... Oh, I'm saying in both cases, it's the same.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Um, that actually it's not relevant what your job title was as a business person or a politician, it's about the individual-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... as to whether they can make that transition themselves. Uh, and really, that transition is about the principles of leadership and the principles of creating and building great organizations. And as I said, it's not just about anyone going from the business world is gonna make the political world better. No, that's not the case.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
And likewise, going the other way. Um, it's purely about, um, finding the right people that actually- the right individuals that have the emotional intelligence, the skills, the experience to actually do the jobs properly, uh, is, is really... That's much more important. I can tell you a number of really successful nonprofit organizations that have outstanding leadership-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... uh, and are really well-organized, uh, very efficient, awesomely performing organizations. I could point to some countries that are run like that. I could point to some businesses that are run like that, and nonprofits. And so, you know, that- what's common is, is, is the individuals and the leadership principles, and the principles of building good organizations, not whether they've been from one of those fields of business or politics.
- NKNikhil Kamath
For someone like me, Chris, who has no access to world leaders like you might, uh, can you teach me what is wrong with the world today? Why is, why is so much... Why are so many different people fighting with each other at the same time?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Look, I think we're in a really different phase. I mean, you know, we've had a, a world order essentially for the last 70 years, post-World War II, that kind of has, has kind of worked, and actually most countries have done exceptionally well off the back of that.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
But you are seeing a shift from rules to power, as I said at Racino. You're seeing a shift from economics to security-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you think the world order is changing, the established order?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah, I do, and I think, and I think also you're seeing a shift from sort of efficiency to resilience. And so, you know-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Can you explain that, efficiency to resilience?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Well, essentially, you know, the, the old model was that we would go find the lowest cost products and services in a global supply chain, and actually, um, make sure that, you know, we could source them from anywhere in the world, globally.
- 36:12 – 37:09
PM Christopher on Anticipated Geopolitical Conditions
- NKNikhil Kamath
Europe is arming itself again, rearming itself. I read in philosophy or in history that if there are warriors, there will be war. So where do you think the world is heading towards if more people are starting to arm themselves all over again? Will there be more war in the next 10 years?
- CLChristopher Luxon
No, not necessarily, but if you think about, you know, um, peace through strength, and you think about this idea of... You know, you just look at the war in Ukraine, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
That was an illegal, immoral war launched by Russia on Ukraine, and the implication of that is that many people in Western Europe, actually through high energy prices, created huge amounts of economic pain and suffering. Go look at what's happened with grain prices throughout Africa, even rice prices throughout Southeast Asia. Huge impact because of that one conflict as a result. You know, that's why I keep saying, we don't want to have instability or insecurity in a region. Um, you've got to make sure that you've got security and economic prosperity. The two go hand in hand.
- 37:09 – 38:09
The Ideal Political Future
- NKNikhil Kamath
If you were to take pen to paper, have a whiteboard, and redraw government in the manner that will work for tomorrow, what would you change? Socialism, capitalism, left, right?
- CLChristopher Luxon
I don't think those labels are really very helpful, to be honest.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay.
- CLChristopher Luxon
I think what's much more-
- NKNikhil Kamath
How would you label your board?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Well, what I'd label is it's about, about being customer-centric. It's really actually about delivering for your people and their needs.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
And when I talk to New Zealanders at the moment, what's the number one need that they have?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
It's about, uh, c- dealing with the cost of living, improving their economic well-being. It's restoring law and order so they feel safe in their homes, their businesses, their communities. It's certainly about delivering better health and education outcomes, so their kids have a great future. So if you stay focused on those things and those goals, um, then you drive government to deliver those goals. And you can talk about, uh, left, right, and labels as much as you like, but actually, the public want you to deliver for them and actually help them, uh, have a better life. And they get more choices, more freedom as to what they get to do with their time and their money. Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I think we
- 38:09 – 39:40
In A World Without Fear
- NKNikhil Kamath
have time for one last question.... Chris, what would you say, what would you do if there was absolutely no fear? No fear of judgment, repercussions, nothing. One thing that you feel-
- CLChristopher Luxon
[chuckles]
- NKNikhil Kamath
-but are not able to say. There's so many things I feel, but I'm not able to say.
- CLChristopher Luxon
But I don't... Well, I, I don't feel particularly constrained, because I know what are my mission and purpose is at a personal level, and I know what we're trying to achieve at a country level. And so for us, it's like, "Right, let's go." You know, um, there'll be trade-offs, I'm sure, along the way, um, which inevitably you have to make off... You know, make, but bec- because you're trying to make sure you deliver for the most amount of people in the fastest possible way. I think you've got to do the very best you can-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... with what you know at the time, and move forward, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
I don't even mean about New Zealand, or governance, or politics. I just mean about the world in general. What is one thing that should be said but is not being said?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Well, I, I mean, I, I actually think the world's gonna be in good hands. I think the next generation coming in behind me is actually... I look at my kids, you know, and I look at their friends, and I think they're incredibly altruistic. They don't come to the- with the baggage and prejudice of historical prejudices that often you see being observed in the generation even ahead of me.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is altruism real, or is it more-
- CLChristopher Luxon
No, I think-
- NKNikhil Kamath
-motivational than realistic?
- CLChristopher Luxon
... they wanna collaborate. They wanna work together in different ways. There are less, there's less prejudice sitting there o- on historical issues, um, and I think that's a good thing. So I actually feel very optimistic about the future and the world.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- CLChristopher Luxon
I think, uh... I, I feel really optimistic about it, you know, that actually the next generation becoming behind us will lead just as well as be the right people for the right time, so.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I think
- 39:40 – 40:53
Generational Shift in Optimism
- NKNikhil Kamath
your generation is definitely optimistic, as is mine, but if you go to a generation of people born beyond '95 or 2000, uh, they don't have the same optimism we, we did or we have today. Why do you think that is?
- CLChristopher Luxon
Well, my, my request to them would be, get involved. You know, get involved. You know, um, change the system. If you don't like the system, get into the system and actually make it a better system. You know, that's what I've tried to do. You can sit on the sidelines, and you can comment, and get behind your keyboard and sound off, but otherwise, get into the arena and actually give it a go, and actually shape it, and make it change-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm
- CLChristopher Luxon
... and be the change that, you know, famously said, you know, you wanna see. So, um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- CLChristopher Luxon
... you know, that's important, and I just would encourage young people, if you're frustrated with the system, you know, don't, don't, don't disengage from the system. Go, go towards it, and, and walk into that, uh, end system and try and change it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Thank you, Chris. This was lovely.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Pleasure.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Thank you for taking the time with us.
- CLChristopher Luxon
It's lovely to be with you.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I hope you had a good time.
- CLChristopher Luxon
I loved it. And I... Can I just say to you?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Come and visit us in New Zealand.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I'd love to.
- CLChristopher Luxon
We'd love to have host you down there. I'd love to show you around a bit and see, show you some things down there, but I think you'd really enjoy it, so.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I would love to.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Yeah, hope to see you there.
- NKNikhil Kamath
100%.
- CLChristopher Luxon
It'd be great.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Thank you so much.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Thanks for your time.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Thank you.
- CLChristopher Luxon
Appreciate it. Take care. [upbeat music] Thank you, everybody. Have a good rest of the afternoon. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 40:53
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