Rishi Sunak & Akshata Murty: Power, Identity & Why Patience Beats Ambition | Nikhil | People by WTF

Speaker 0:00 [upbeat music] [fire crackling]

Nikhil Kamath 0:54 I'm not gonna talk to Akshata like she's Rishi's wife or Narayana-

Akshata Murty 0:57 Thank you

Nikhil Kamath 0:58 ... Murthy's daughter.

Akshata Murty 1:00 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 1:00 Uh, forget Rishi and your dad. Where does Akshata's validation come from?

Akshata Murty 1:05 Mm. From genuinely having impact.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10 How was the journey, Rishi, from going from being a person who was at Goldman Sachs to becoming the Prime Minister of UK? I know it's a big question.

Rishi Sunak 1:22 It's a big question.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23 Yeah. [laughs] A lot more young people-

Rishi Sunak 1:25 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:26 ... need to participate in politics.

Rishi Sunak 1:27 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 1:28 For somebody sitting on the outside, a young guy who wants to be in politics-

Rishi Sunak 1:33 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:34 ... how hard is it?

Rishi Sunak 1:35 Yeah. [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 1:37 Is it a, is it that one person can actually change stuff? [upbeat music] Tell me when we start, huh?

Akshata Murty 1:56 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:57 You started?

Akshata Murty 1:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:00 Sure?

Akshata Murty 2:01 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 2:02 Okay.

Rishi Sunak 2:03 Sorry, we s- I wouldn't mind a... Is it possible to get fresh lime soda?

Nikhil Kamath 2:06 Yeah, of course.

Rishi Sunak 2:06 If, if that's-

Nikhil Kamath 2:07 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:07 ... if that's doable.

Nikhil Kamath 2:08 Uh.

Rishi Sunak 2:08 I'll have sweet if that's-

Nikhil Kamath 2:09 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:10 ... a go.

Nikhil Kamath 2:10 Do you want salt in it as well?

Rishi Sunak 2:11 I j- actually, just sweet would be good.

Nikhil Kamath 2:13 Just sweet. So I've been in Alibag the last few days. I just got back-

Akshata Murty 2:18 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:18 ... just now.

Akshata Murty 2:19 Which is?

Nikhil Kamath 2:21 Which is-

Akshata Murty 2:21 P- pardon my geography

Nikhil Kamath 2:22 ... which is a 30-minute boat ride from Bombay.

Akshata Murty 2:26 Oh, okay.

Nikhil Kamath 2:27 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:28 And that's like a, like a hill station-ish?

Nikhil Kamath 2:30 It's, it's much like Bombay but no people.

Akshata Murty 2:32 Right.

Rishi Sunak 2:33 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 2:34 [laughs] It's like-

Akshata Murty 2:34 So like The Hamptons?

Nikhil Kamath 2:36 It's not prettier than Bombay.

Akshata Murty 2:38 Right.

Nikhil Kamath 2:38 It's just emptier than Bombay.

Akshata Murty 2:40 Emptier.

Rishi Sunak 2:40 So you go there for a little bit of...

Nikhil Kamath 2:42 No, we have this, uh, thing we are running called Foundery, which is like a residential college for entrepreneurship, a three-month course.

Rishi Sunak 2:54 Okay.

Akshata Murty 2:55 Oh.

Nikhil Kamath 2:55 So about 20 to 30 people get selected from-

Rishi Sunak 2:58 Yeah, like so each cohort is 20 to 30?

Nikhil Kamath 3:00 Yeah, yeah.

Akshata Murty 3:01 Like the Y Combinator I think.

Nikhil Kamath 3:02 Yeah, very much.

Akshata Murty 3:03 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 3:03 They get a half a million dollars.

Akshata Murty 3:04 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 3:04 They get to build a business while they live there in one house for three months.

Akshata Murty 3:09 Yes.

Rishi Sunak 3:09 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 3:09 And then mentorship and-

Rishi Sunak 3:09 And so, so very-

Nikhil Kamath 3:10 Yeah, yeah. So I was with the current batch.

Akshata Murty 3:14 Right.

Nikhil Kamath 3:14 It's a good place to do it near Bombay 'cause it's empty and nobody, like-

Akshata Murty 3:18 Sure.

Rishi Sunak 3:18 And d- do, did you set it up?

Nikhil Kamath 3:21 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 3:21 Yeah. How many batches have you gone through?

Nikhil Kamath 3:23 First batch.

Rishi Sunak 3:23 Oh, this was the first?

Nikhil Kamath 3:24 First batch. Yeah. [laughs] First batch.

Rishi Sunak 3:26 That's super exciting.

Nikhil Kamath 3:27 Very exciting.

Rishi Sunak 3:28 Is there anything else like that in India? Y Combinator and these guys are not here, right?

Nikhil Kamath 3:32 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 3:32 What-

Nikhil Kamath 3:32 And this one is very consumer-focused, so we're building 20 consumer brands.

Akshata Murty 3:37 Wow.

Nikhil Kamath 3:37 So one will be a candy company-

Akshata Murty 3:39 It's like my kind of dream

Nikhil Kamath 3:40 ... one is a toothpaste company.

Rishi Sunak 3:40 It's your dream. [laughs]

Akshata Murty 3:42 And we can get into that, but I, b- we started Kathmandu Ventures-

Rishi Sunak 3:45 So-

Akshata Murty 3:46 ... doing that kind of thing, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 3:47 Yeah. So that, you, one is a candy company?

Nikhil Kamath 3:49 Yeah, one is a toothpaste company, one just makes jeans, one makes, uh, chocolates of a certain kind. Very interesting. Um-

Akshata Murty 3:57 And there's, normally VCs don't necessarily rush into consumer companies, right?

Nikhil Kamath 4:03 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 4:03 So it's nice to have a source of not just capital, but deep passion and expertise for this space.

Nikhil Kamath 4:10 Yeah. And in India when you see the GDP number growing at 6 to 7%-

Akshata Murty 4:14 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 4:14 ... a really large component of that is consumer.

Rishi Sunak 4:17 Consum apt.

Akshata Murty 4:18 So-

Nikhil Kamath 4:18 Which is growing at 12, 13%.

Rishi Sunak 4:21 12 to 13.

Akshata Murty 4:21 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 4:22 So the Indian con- Indian consumer is saving less-

Akshata Murty 4:26 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 4:26 ... especially the younger generation.

Akshata Murty 4:28 Spending more.

Nikhil Kamath 4:28 And they're spending more.

Rishi Sunak 4:29 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 4:29 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 4:30 Also, I would say beginning to borrow more to spend more.

Akshata Murty 4:33 Mm-hmm. Which was not the case-

Rishi Sunak 4:36 And maybe-

Nikhil Kamath 4:36 No

Akshata Murty 4:36 ... certainly when I grew up.

Nikhil Kamath 4:37 No, n- nor when I grew up.

Rishi Sunak 4:38 Yeah, 'cause-

Nikhil Kamath 4:39 You can say we grew up at the same time. [laughs]

Akshata Murty 4:41 We are somewhat contemporaries-

Rishi Sunak 4:43 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 4:43 ... but I'll let you, I'll let you run away with the younger person thing.

Nikhil Kamath 4:45 Probably in the same area as well.

Akshata Murty 4:47 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 4:48 Like, maybe, like, five minutes away from each other.

Akshata Murty 4:51 Yeah, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 4:51 Have you selected the people? But they all apply, and you just go through, and how many applications did you get?

Nikhil Kamath 4:56 We created a AI quiz which is about 45 minutes.

Rishi Sunak 4:59 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 5:00 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 5:00 Uh, a few thousand people cleared it, and then we had a boot camp for the last four days where we went down from 75 people to 25 people, which will be the first cohort.

Rishi Sunak 5:14 This is so fun.

Akshata Murty 5:15 And the individuals-

Nikhil Kamath 5:16 Yeah

Akshata Murty 5:16 ... do you then t- So say there's a, there's a lady with a business plan.

Nikhil Kamath 5:21 Mm.

Akshata Murty 5:22 Do you then find a te- uh, uh, s- Do they then meet potential team members in this cohort, or do they-

Nikhil Kamath 5:28 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 5:29 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 5:29 Yeah. So many of them team up and become co-founders.

Akshata Murty 5:32 Right.

Nikhil Kamath 5:33 So the ideas are already there-

Akshata Murty 5:35 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 5:35 ... of what could be built, and we help to a large extent in manufacturing, distribution, marketing-

Akshata Murty 5:45 Sure

Nikhil Kamath 5:45 ... content, packaging, all of that.

Akshata Murty 5:47 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 5:47 Uh, so the idea is to really expedite the time to market and do it in the three months while they all live in one house.

Akshata Murty 5:56 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 5:56 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 5:57 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 5:58 Sounds great.

Nikhil Kamath 5:59 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 5:59 Fascinating.

Rishi Sunak 5:59 What's it called?

Nikhil Kamath 6:00 It's called Foundery

Rishi Sunak 6:01 Foundery

Nikhil Kamath 6:02 We'd love to have you guys.

Rishi Sunak 6:03 I, I, I mean,

Rishi Sunak 6:04 I would-

Nikhil Kamath 6:04 We, we'd love to come

Rishi Sunak 6:04 ... you would-

Nikhil Kamath 6:05 I mean, that's like music

Rishi Sunak 6:05 ... I would love it.

Nikhil Kamath 6:06 I would like music.

Rishi Sunak 6:06 You would, I will have to-

Nikhil Kamath 6:07 Pass out in excitement

Rishi Sunak 6:07 ... if, if you get her involved, Nikhil, I won't be able to get her back home.

Nikhil Kamath 6:10 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 6:11 And that's-

Nikhil Kamath 6:11 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 6:11 I mean, you've just described-

Nikhil Kamath 6:12 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 6:12 ... something that is probably her dream. [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 6:14 Yeah. And you know for-

Akshata Murty 6:14 It's something that I've been thinking about myself.

Nikhil Kamath 6:17 Yeah. Kiran's gonna be there for a few days.

Akshata Murty 6:18 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 6:19 I've convinced-

Akshata Murty 6:19 Oh, so you're bringing people to ki-

Nikhil Kamath 6:20 Like take classes

Akshata Murty 6:21 ... into that.

Rishi Sunak 6:22 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 6:22 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 6:22 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 6:22 Have you, and have you funded it... If you don't mind me asking, you funded it yourself?

Nikhil Kamath 6:25 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 6:25 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 6:26 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 6:26 Fully.

Nikhil Kamath 6:26 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 6:26 And then you, you have a... Is it a standard term sheet that-

Nikhil Kamath 6:30 Yeah, it's a fairly standard term sheet

Rishi Sunak 6:32 ... standard, so they all start with that and they're not-

Nikhil Kamath 6:33 All 20 of them get about half a million dollars beginning.

Rishi Sunak 6:36 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 6:37 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 6:37 And then in, at the end of three months, they need more money, then we open it up for whoever wants to participate.

Akshata Murty 6:42 Wants to come in. Yeah

Rishi Sunak 6:42 ... yeah, at, at that point-

Nikhil Kamath 6:43 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 6:43 ... yeah.

Akshata Murty 6:43 How many-

Rishi Sunak 6:43 And you, you, have you... You, do you, you have a right, but presumably an obligation to follow on if you, if you want.

Nikhil Kamath 6:49 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 6:49 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 6:49 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 6:49 Um, but-

Akshata Murty 6:50 I think we both have so many questions 'cause it's so exciting.

Rishi Sunak 6:52 That sounds great.

Akshata Murty 6:54 But, but so presumably you're investing, like, angel, right?

Nikhil Kamath 6:59 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 6:59 I mean, they're-

Akshata Murty 7:00 So the next step of funding, um, aside from you, in the consumer space in India, do you find there are sufficient folks who can kind of-

Nikhil Kamath 7:12 Yeah

Akshata Murty 7:13 ... put that kind of money in and-

Nikhil Kamath 7:14 There were with-

Rishi Sunak 7:14 In, in India, yes, because of the rate of growth in consumer-

Nikhil Kamath 7:17 In consumption.

Akshata Murty 7:18 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 7:18 ... which is the opposite of the Western world exactly.

Nikhil Kamath 7:20 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 7:21 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting

Nikhil Kamath 7:22 ... like, you would find it just as easy to get money for consumer-

Akshata Murty 7:27 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 7:27 ... as you would for tech in India.

Akshata Murty 7:29 Amazing.

Nikhil Kamath 7:30 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 7:31 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 7:31 Wow.

Rishi Sunak 7:32 That sounds great.

Nikhil Kamath 7:33 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 7:34 Sounds really great.

Nikhil Kamath 7:35 Yeah. It should be fun.

Akshata Murty 7:36 And it, you can also film them like, [laughs] like that is-

Rishi Sunak 7:38 What's the-

Nikhil Kamath 7:38 We are. We are making it a show.

Akshata Murty 7:40 Yes.

Rishi Sunak 7:40 Nice. Nice.

Nikhil Kamath 7:41 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 7:41 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 7:41 Like seven episodes.

Akshata Murty 7:42 Yes.

Rishi Sunak 7:43 What's the average age?

Nikhil Kamath 7:45 28.

Rishi Sunak 7:46 Oh, interesting. That's actually a bit-

Nikhil Kamath 7:47 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 7:48 ... older than I would've thought.

Nikhil Kamath 7:50 Yeah. It's funny, we realized that we have some who are really young.

Rishi Sunak 7:54 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 7:54 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 7:54 Who are like 18 and 19, but we ended up picking a lot of people who were in their late 30s as well.

Rishi Sunak 8:00 Okay. Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 8:02 Just worked out that way. There was no plan going in.

Rishi Sunak 8:04 Yeah, no-

Akshata Murty 8:04 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 8:04 ... you just saw who...

Nikhil Kamath 8:06 Yeah. And we're making a TV show because-

Akshata Murty 8:09 Yes, that's my thing

Nikhil Kamath 8:10 ... we, we wanna make them heroes before the product hits the market, so people buy the product.

Akshata Murty 8:14 And Nikhil, you and I know, growing up, who were the heroes of our time, right?

Nikhil Kamath 8:20 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 8:20 You had incredible cricket folks.

Nikhil Kamath 8:22 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 8:22 You had Bollywood.

Nikhil Kamath 8:23 Your dad and Jay Nagar. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 8:25 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 8:25 And my dad.

Nikhil Kamath 8:25 And my [laughs] much-

Akshata Murty 8:27 But, but, but you know-

Nikhil Kamath 8:27 ... beyond Jay Nagar

Akshata Murty 8:28 ... but, but literally, I think one of the reasons my dad stood out was because he was a man with an idea and a vision and a business plan, really.

Nikhil Kamath 8:37 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 8:37 And so you're saying let's take that and make heroes out of these men and women.

Nikhil Kamath 8:43 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 8:43 How cool is that? Like, let's make business cool. I mean, business is cool now.

Nikhil Kamath 8:47 Yeah. You know, I interviewed your dad a few years ago.

Akshata Murty 8:50 Did you?

Nikhil Kamath 8:50 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 8:51 Oh, we did. [laughs] I, I didn't see that.

Akshata Murty 8:53 At some... [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 8:53 It's, um, it was not on camera. It was like a very-

Akshata Murty 8:55 Oh, exactly.

Rishi Sunak 8:56 Ah.

Akshata Murty 8:56 I have so many things to say, but we're on camera, so I'm not gonna say a lot of it. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 9:01 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 9:01 It was not on camera. It was, like, a conversation we were having for a Karnataka government thing.

Rishi Sunak 9:07 Okay.

Akshata Murty 9:07 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 9:07 Yeah. I see your mom every time Kiran has a-

Akshata Murty 9:11 Correct. She's part of-

Nikhil Kamath 9:12 Has a, has a good event or a bad event

Akshata Murty 9:13 ... she's part of the posse.

Rishi Sunak 9:15 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 9:15 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 9:16 The last time I met your mom, we were in a... Where were we? No, this was unfortunately when Kiran's-

Akshata Murty 9:23 Oh, yeah

Nikhil Kamath 9:23 ... husband had passed away.

Akshata Murty 9:24 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 9:24 Oh.

Akshata Murty 9:24 John.

Nikhil Kamath 9:24 And we were at the cremat-

Akshata Murty 9:25 2022.

Nikhil Kamath 9:26 We were at the crematorium.

Akshata Murty 9:27 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 9:28 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 9:28 And there was a poster of a god-

Akshata Murty 9:31 Mm-hmm

Nikhil Kamath 9:32 ... on the ceiling.

Akshata Murty 9:33 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 9:33 So I was looking at it, and she came up to me, and she's like, "Nikhil, do you know what that is?" It was the god who's in charge of-

Akshata Murty 9:41 Of death

Nikhil Kamath 9:42 ... of death.

Akshata Murty 9:42 Yama. Yama.

Nikhil Kamath 9:42 No-

Akshata Murty 9:42 Yamaraj

Nikhil Kamath 9:43 ... no, he's, he's a god of crematoriums.

Akshata Murty 9:46 Oh, right.

Rishi Sunak 9:46 Oh.

Nikhil Kamath 9:46 Who's in charge of some-

Akshata Murty 9:48 Very specific

Nikhil Kamath 9:48 ... very specific.

Akshata Murty 9:49 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 9:49 I mean, [laughs]

Akshata Murty 9:49 Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 9:50 So she sat me down and told me the story for, like, 10 minutes. This is his job.

Akshata Murty 9:54 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 9:55 You know, in Haridwar where there are many fires-

Rishi Sunak 9:57 Yeah. Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 9:57 ... at the same time.

Akshata Murty 9:58 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 9:58 He's the guy in charge of keeping the place running and-

Akshata Murty 10:01 Right

Nikhil Kamath 10:01 ... moving one soul from here to there.

Akshata Murty 10:03 Yeah. Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 10:04 Very interesting story.

Rishi Sunak 10:05 That is classic-

Akshata Murty 10:06 And-

Rishi Sunak 10:06 ... classic your mom. [laughs] And it's... Not at the kinda macro level of gods. It's-

Akshata Murty 10:12 But, but she, she-

Rishi Sunak 10:14 Some very specific

Akshata Murty 10:14 ... I think she, she is so passionate about storytelling.

Nikhil Kamath 10:20 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 10:20 And then she deploys that skill, whether she's writing for kids, whether she's now, you know, she's a member of parliament via the Rajya Sabha, whether she... I think even when she was an engineer, she, she somehow was able to k- put things together to, to t- have a narrative that appealed to people.

Nikhil Kamath 10:41 Mm.

Akshata Murty 10:41 So I think really interesting. I mean, you've seen that-

Rishi Sunak 10:43 Yeah

Akshata Murty 10:44 ... all the time.

Rishi Sunak 10:44 I think it's a great gift in life. I think I, I look at it in a marvel. But her ability to tell a story about anything in any context is a superpower, because it's by far and away the most powerful way to communicate, and she somehow has in her head just stories for everything. For every age group, every topic, there'll be something.

Akshata Murty 11:10 And in politics, I feel like you've realized how important it is. Yeah

Rishi Sunak 11:15 ... I, I think in, in, but even in, I think even in business, in every-

Akshata Murty 11:18 Mm

Rishi Sunak 11:18 ... like, in everything, it just, if you can communicate through storytelling, it's, it's a... Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 11:24 Did you have to learn to story tell?

Rishi Sunak 11:26 I... Yeah. I'd say it's something I've learnt because of you and your mom.

Akshata Murty 11:30 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 11:32 It, it, it doesn't come as naturally to me. I, I approach things a bit more practically, a bit more analytically, and, but i- which is fine, but it's not as effective for communicating. Certainly politically, but I think in general. But then I s- obviously you are more like your mom, right?

Akshata Murty 11:52 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 11:52 Her instinctive way to explain something is with a story, and I see how she does it with the kids.

Akshata Murty 11:57 It's just how you see the world.

Rishi Sunak 11:59 But your mom isn't... Yeah, but it's, she-

Akshata Murty 12:00 You see the world in narratives. You, you are people-centricYou c- you put ideas together and naturally there's a kind of beginning, middle, and end to it. But you don't consciously think about it, obviously

Nikhil Kamath 12:14 I agree with her. For a guy who looks like me, brown-skinned,

Nikhil Kamath 12:20 to become the Prime Minister of England, you have to be good at storytelling

Rishi Sunak 12:28 Yeah, that's nice of you to say. That's nice of you to say. I-

Nikhil Kamath 12:35 At your age

Rishi Sunak 12:36 At my age... Look, uh, y- look, and I think, obviously, you have to be able to communicate reasonably well f- i- in politics. I think different times require different types of communication. Then the pandemic struck, and so that was my introduction to the country. So I was doing... A, I was doing something that I was very comfortable in, which was economic policy, but that time I think was atypical, Nikhil, because... And I can't- I don't know what it was like here, but i- i- in, in, in the UK, and same, similar in the US and other places, everyone just watched the government press conference every evening

Nikhil Kamath 13:18 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 13:18 Because people couldn't leave their homes as mu-

Nikhil Kamath 13:20 Mm

Rishi Sunak 13:20 ... everyone was at home and everyone was worried

Akshata Murty 13:22 Scared

Rishi Sunak 13:23 And so people, in a way that they haven't done for decades, most of the country just sat down at 5 or 6:00 or whatever ti- I think it was 5:00 we did these things, and, and, and then there would be a different minister every day on the TV talking to the country. And that was my introduction to the country. And it suited me, 'cause it didn't- you didn't need to be a brilliant storyteller-

Nikhil Kamath 13:46 Mm

Rishi Sunak 13:46 ... for what people wanted. What they wanted was-

Akshata Murty 13:48 A clear communicator

Rishi Sunak 13:50 ... yeah, they wanted someone who could explain things clearly, provide reassurance, and then do these things that would help them, and e- and explain, you know, what we were doing economically, how it was gonna benefit them, and with a hopefully reassuring tone. And you had this- you had a captive audience who were hungry for that information, and so it probably suited my style.

Nikhil Kamath 14:14 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 14:15 And then actually that, you know, once politics gets back to normal and no one is tuning in for half an hour, with a slightly more sympathetic bias as they're listening to you, [laughs] uh, that's when actually, if you're able to communicate with storytelling, it would've served me better actually.

Nikhil Kamath 14:33 I watched a lot of your interviews. There aren't many. I think you guys have done very few interviews.

Rishi Sunak 14:39 You, you mean together, or?

Nikhil Kamath 14:40 Together, there are one or two, I think.

Rishi Sunak 14:41 There's very-

Nikhil Kamath 14:42 The Stanford one

Akshata Murty 14:43 I don't... Yes

Rishi Sunak 14:43 Yeah

Akshata Murty 14:43 We've done the Stanford speech

Rishi Sunak 14:44 Stanford, yeah

Akshata Murty 14:44 ... and that's it

Nikhil Kamath 14:45 One About maths

Rishi Sunak 14:46 And, yes.

Akshata Murty 14:47 Yes. That's the-

Rishi Sunak 14:47 Yeah, that's a newer thing for us-

Nikhil Kamath 14:48 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 14:48 ... to do together, is this charity.

Akshata Murty 14:50 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 14:50 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 14:50 Yeah. Well, and so you've seen a few of them.

Nikhil Kamath 14:53 But I've never seen you speak about life truly-

Akshata Murty 14:57 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 14:57 ... and not in a manner that you are doing today.

Akshata Murty 14:59 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 14:59 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 14:59 I hear about Akshata's parents a lot, never about yours.

Rishi Sunak 15:03 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 15:03 Mm. They're awesome.

Nikhil Kamath 15:04 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 15:05 I- in fact, I went through a period [laughs] where I said to Rishi, "I'm s- I'm not sure if I wanna marry you or not, but then I don't wanna lose your parents." [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 15:12 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 15:12 So the best way is to, is to, is to, uh-

Rishi Sunak 15:15 Yeah. They, and they certainly spend more time, my parents spend more time talking to you-

Akshata Murty 15:18 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 15:18 ... than they do to me. [laughs]

Akshata Murty 15:20 So, but they're genuinely amazing. I'll- I'll give my two cents 'cause I'm, uh, I obviously didn't grow up with, with them. And you were saying, you know, Rishi, for someone who looks like me became PM. I would say so much of that is down to them, because they raised all three of you, by the way, with incredible values. And you should talk about what those values are, but incredible values, and they're the living embodiment of those values. And, um, and so I, I, um, I feel very lucky that my children... On the one hand, of course, I'm so proud of my parents and everything that they stand for, not achieve, but what they stand for, Nikhil. That's really important. But they have another set of grandparents, and I got to know a lot more about your parents' kind of journey when, I think there was that book that came out on you by Michael Ashcroft, I can't remember the name, when you were chancellor. Um, and so I was- Rishi didn't have time, so I was doing some of the digging into their journeys, and it's incredible.

Nikhil Kamath 16:29 Where are they now? What do they do?

Rishi Sunak 16:31 They, they still live in Southampton, where I was born. They are retired. Um, they're spending time with their... Well, they keep busy, but they spend time with their grandkids when they can. They just, um, they just, uh... Our, our two girls actually were in, uh-

Akshata Murty 16:44 In Bangalore last week

Rishi Sunak 16:44 ... in Bangalore this week with Akshata's mom and dad for half term, and then they just got back. But my parents came to surprise them at the airport, so they've been having a nice time, the four of them, over the weekend. No, so they still live in the town where I was born and, and grew up. My, uh, dad was a GP-

Nikhil Kamath 17:02 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 17:02 ... family doctor, my mum was a pharmacist. And, you know, I've, I've spoken about this and, you know, they were very much my inspiration for wanting to go into politics. You might think that's a bit odd given [laughs] that they, uh, they're medical. But I, I worked for them, and I worked mainly for my mum in the shop in the back. And so I'd be doing, making up all the medicines and-

Akshata Murty 17:27 Doing the accounts, I thought

Rishi Sunak 17:27 ... cleaning things. I'd, I'd do all the accounts as well and the bookkeeping, and that got me into business side of things. But... And then I would deliver the medicines. So I'd be on my bike, and then in the evenings you'd go around and then I'd drop them off for the patients that couldn't come in and pick them up. And then later on, you know, I learned to drive, I did it that way. But the... I was really struck because they'd been doing the same thing in the same place 30 years, and the surgery and the pharmacy were nearby each other-

Akshata Murty 17:53 Mm

Rishi Sunak 17:53 ... so they had lots of similar patients overlapping. And I would, I was struck because you'd go to the door and you'd hand the thing and they'd say, "Oh, are you Mrs. Sunak's son?"

Rishi Sunak 18:05 or, "Are you Dr. Sunak's son?" And I'd say, "Yes." And then they would proceed to tell me some lovely story about my mum and dad.

Nikhil Kamath 18:10 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 18:10 They'd say, "Oh..." And it would invariably be something that-... either or both of them had done to them, or their parents, or their grandparents, or their kids. And I- you just got this repeatedly, and the same, uh, the same thing would happen if we were out at the weekend or shopping. And, uh, and, and I, and, and I came to realize that it was possible for just one person or two people as individuals to have this quite strong impact in their community, and the way that you could touch so many people's lives and make a difference to them. And I thought that was inspiring. And so that was my motivation for becoming a politician. Because in the UK, our districts, our constituencies are small-

Nikhil Kamath 18:52 Right

Rishi Sunak 18:52 ... and it's, it's very retail, right?

Nikhil Kamath 18:55 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 18:55 So you are... And I... You know, even when you're prime minister, you're still doing that. You're, you're conducting... They're still called, they're called surgeries.

Nikhil Kamath 19:01 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 19:01 You know, you have a surgery as an MP-

Nikhil Kamath 19:03 Mm

Rishi Sunak 19:03 ... people come and see you with their problems, you help them. And, and you're out in, embedded in your local community. And I get a lot of fulfillment from that. And actually, one of the things, having left Downing Street, that I get to do more of is that aspect of the job, having stayed as an MP.

Akshata Murty 19:18 That's in North Yorkshire. That's why our home-

Nikhil Kamath 19:19 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 19:20 Yeah

Akshata Murty 19:20 ... is in North Yorkshire.

Rishi Sunak 19:20 So that-

Nikhil Kamath 19:21 I Googled it. It looks really pretty.

Rishi Sunak 19:22 It's very pretty.

Nikhil Kamath 19:23 It's very green and-

Akshata Murty 19:23 You must come and visit.

Rishi Sunak 19:24 It's very green.

Nikhil Kamath 19:24 Yeah. Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 19:25 Yeah. You sh- you'd like it. Yeah, it's-

Akshata Murty 19:26 Actually, Kiran also... Sadly John passed away, but that was on their list, 'cause it's-

Rishi Sunak 19:31 Yeah

Akshata Murty 19:31 ... depending on which train you take, it's on the way to Scotland.

Rishi Sunak 19:33 Yeah, it's on the way up to Scotland.

Nikhil Kamath 19:34 Right.

Akshata Murty 19:34 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 19:35 It's, um... Yeah, it's a fiercely independent people in Yorkshire, and it's, uh... But it's stunning rural England. Um, I represent more sheep than people.

Nikhil Kamath 19:43 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 19:43 Um, so I've become very familiar with all things farming-related.

Nikhil Kamath 19:46 Right.

Rishi Sunak 19:46 And there's two national parks and, and it's beautiful. Um, but yeah, so that's, that's the thing I got from them, was just through working with them, and on seeing how they made a difference. That was my inspiration. Um, 'cause obviously I, I disappointed them by not becoming a doctor. But, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 20:03 I think you did fine. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 20:04 I did. It's okay. Uh, it's okay.

Akshata Murty 20:06 There's always time now. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 20:07 It w- it worked out okay. Um, it worked out okay. [laughs]

Akshata Murty 20:10 Yeah. But I, but I would-

Rishi Sunak 20:11 But it was a, it was a definite adjustment for them.

Nikhil Kamath 20:13 Yeah?

Rishi Sunak 20:14 Yeah. Well, 'cause I, I was studying economics and, and philosophy and pol- They didn't... I... You know.

Akshata Murty 20:20 And they're like, "We understand science."

Rishi Sunak 20:22 Yeah, we kinda... But this-

Akshata Murty 20:23 "We understand law."

Rishi Sunak 20:24 They just... Yeah, 'cause they th- they thought I might become a lawyer, so they understood that. But even those days, they were kind of like, what, what degree, what subject you're studying, what degree does that mean, what job does that mean, right? It was... And, and I had to explain, "It's okay. It's a good degree. [laughs] It's good A-levels. I'll be able to get a job, um, and it would be fine." But the, the, the other thing with them, and that's actually in spite of the-

Akshata Murty 20:47 Differences

Rishi Sunak 20:47 ... superficial differences-

Akshata Murty 20:49 Yes

Rishi Sunak 20:49 ... between our families, the thing that united them was... You know, for my parents it was all about education.

Nikhil Kamath 20:56 Right.

Rishi Sunak 20:57 So for them, you know, they worked, and they worked, and they worked, and they did extra jobs and everything else, and they worked seven days a week.

Akshata Murty 21:03 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 21:03 And, and all of that was so that we could go to great schools.

Nikhil Kamath 21:07 Right.

Rishi Sunak 21:07 'Cause their, their view was that they just threw everything-

Nikhil Kamath 21:10 Mm

Rishi Sunak 21:10 ... into that, sacrificed everything for that.

Nikhil Kamath 21:12 Which is actually a very Indian thing, no?

Rishi Sunak 21:14 It's a, it's a very-

Akshata Murty 21:15 It's a very Indian thing. Correct

Rishi Sunak 21:15 ... it's a very Indian thing.

Akshata Murty 21:15 Exactly that. Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 21:16 Um, it's a very Indian thing. Uh-

Akshata Murty 21:17 I mean, uh, uh, you know, my parents did exactly that, right? And, and I think the Indian community as a whole, we value education-

Rishi Sunak 21:27 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 21:27 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 21:28 As the passport, as a way for-

Akshata Murty 21:30 As a kind of passport to better life

Rishi Sunak 21:30 ... a better life.

Akshata Murty 21:31 Right?

Rishi Sunak 21:31 But it was... I was really lucky, 'cause I went to great, great schools, uh, as a result of that. And we, I had help along the way, uh, as did my brother and sister. But it was, um, you know, that was kind of drilled into us, that this is important and-

Nikhil Kamath 21:45 Do you think it still works, though? If you were to argue that the-

Akshata Murty 21:49 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 21:49 ... Indian education system, which is very marks dependent-

Akshata Murty 21:55 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 21:55 ... and rank dependent, is teaching us to be conformist in a world that is no longer rewarding conformity?

Akshata Murty 22:04 So f- first of all, I mean-

Rishi Sunak 22:06 Go on, you, you go. I can imagine Will having-

Akshata Murty 22:08 Well, having... Well, I, so I studied in India till I was 18, then I... And then I... The truth is, Nikhil, at 16, you know, both my parents are engineers. Um, even in '96, I knew at 16, I knew that they were, they were special and amazing and, and, uh, and I thought a lot of it was down to them [laughs] being engineers, right?

Nikhil Kamath 22:33 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 22:33 That's far from the point, but, but I knew I didn't want to be an engineer.

Nikhil Kamath 22:37 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 22:38 And so then, well, what are my options? I didn't want to be a doctor. And so I knew I wanted to read and write and storytell, and I loved history, but also loved, um, uh, the social sciences, economics, and so I ended up going to the US and I have a liberal arts degree. Um, but, but I think the Indian education system from when I know it, it, it, it, it is a numbers game and it, it... You know, because the... It, it, it puts you on a path where you, you end up... If you know what you're doing, it's great, but if you don't know what you want to do, I'm not so sure that works. But I think it's changing, and now with things like technology, I think we're able to be more open-minded about what that education system should be.

Rishi Sunak 23:32 But, but Nikhil, to your point, I don't... It's, it's not just India.

Akshata Murty 23:34 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 23:35 Because of AI-

Akshata Murty 23:36 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 23:36 ... every country is having-

Nikhil Kamath 23:37 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 23:37 ... to think about its education system-

Nikhil Kamath 23:39 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 23:39 ... and reimagine it for this world. You know, what, what is worth studying? What are the right skills-

Akshata Murty 23:46 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 23:46 ... to teach young people? And we think about it. We have two-

Akshata Murty 23:49 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 23:49 ... daughters who are about to grow up into this world, and I think the one thing we know is it's, it's actually very hard to say with certainty.

Nikhil Kamath 23:58 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 23:58 And I, you know, I'm lucky to spend time with the people developing this technology, people thinking about

Rishi Sunak 24:04 it. I, I think there's just an incredible amount of uncertainty about exactly-

Akshata Murty 24:07 Mm

Rishi Sunak 24:07 ... how this is all gonna work out. So you-

Nikhil Kamath 24:10 Would you send your daughters to an engineering college today?

Rishi Sunak 24:13 I think, you know, would I send them to Nigeria? Yeah, I mean, now look, uh, I-

Akshata Murty 24:16 If it's the int-

Rishi Sunak 24:16 They're so young

Akshata Murty 24:17 If, if that's, if that's their passion

Rishi Sunak 24:18 If that's what they were passionate about. Um, and look, I'm not as familiar with-

Akshata Murty 24:21 W-

Rishi Sunak 24:22 ... Indian education-

Akshata Murty 24:23 Right

Rishi Sunak 24:23 ... system versus UK or, or US, but-

Akshata Murty 24:25 And, and that's the point I was trying to make, Nikhil.

Rishi Sunak 24:26 Mm.

Akshata Murty 24:26 Like, I thought if you're a fairly good student, you went, you have to be a doc- a doctor or an engineer.

Rishi Sunak 24:31 Mm.

Akshata Murty 24:31 Uh, yeah, a doctor or an engineer, and I didn't wanna be either of those, right?

Rishi Sunak 24:34 Mm. But we're-

Akshata Murty 24:35 Whereas-

Rishi Sunak 24:35 ... we're not quite at the... They's, they're not old enough yet, where I'm sitting there going, "If they were engineers, well, should they do more, um, electrical engineering?" 'Cause hardware's [laughs] more important than, um, you know, computer science or something. I, you know, I'm not at that level with them, and nor, no, neither of us are. But I think what, one thing, some things that are starting to become clearer about this AI world is you can almost break down, I think about it, you, you can break down most jobs into a set of tasks.

Akshata Murty 25:03 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 25:03 Right? Like, the, all of our jobs are a set of tasks, and we've talked about this, right?

Akshata Murty 25:07 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 25:08 And, and there's, there's bits that AI is clearly going to be very good at, and then there's bits that it probably won't be. And you just need to make sure that your education is not so narrow, that it gives you the breadth, these horiz- what I, these horizontal skills. A- and it's things like critical thinking.

Akshata Murty 25:28 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 25:28 It's, it's kinda knowing what question to ask the model. The model will always have more knowledge than you, but you, you, you need to know how to get the best out of it, and that comes from critical thinking, reasoning, judgment, being able to evaluate the answer-

Akshata Murty 25:41 Mm

Rishi Sunak 25:41 ... that comes back, and then go back. I... That, that is a set of skill. I mean, liberal arts education in, in the US is one that focuses on that type of horizontal thinking. So I would... I... That, to me, I think is, is as our kids are thinking, whether it's engineering or economics or whatever, having some breadth-

Akshata Murty 25:58 To have the breadth

Rishi Sunak 25:59 ... that allows you to do that.

Akshata Murty 26:00 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 26:00 'Cause just developing not deep knowledge about one thing, which you do need in life. You need to... I'm a big believer you need to become a subject expert and go deep.

Akshata Murty 26:09 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 26:09 But from a skills capability, you just need to have that breadth. And I think the other thing is... And actually, we, this is, when we were at Stanford-

Akshata Murty 26:17 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 26:17 ... together, we had this... Remember, I, I, I, I, I pro- made the mis- in, in what in hindsight, made a mistake, right? And you told me this at the time.

Akshata Murty 26:27 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 26:27 About, you know, when we were doing all the class selection.

Akshata Murty 26:29 Yes.

Rishi Sunak 26:30 Right? And I, and I, at that age, you're in your 20s, I was drawn more to the harder things that I, A, I enjoyed and I was-

Akshata Murty 26:39 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 26:39 ... investing, extra finance-

Akshata Murty 26:41 Finance

Rishi Sunak 26:41 ... that type of thing, right? And I liked those classes-

Akshata Murty 26:44 Mm

Rishi Sunak 26:44 ... and I thought they were gonna be very relevant to me. And you were right, right? And you were pushing me, and you did more of-

Akshata Murty 26:51 Well, I'm, I'm-

Rishi Sunak 26:52 ... all the things like interpersonal dynamics, organizational behavior-

Akshata Murty 26:55 Org- behavior, organizational culture

Rishi Sunak 26:56 ... understanding humans, and-

Akshata Murty 26:58 Well, people

Rishi Sunak 26:58 ... and behavior and understanding people.

Akshata Murty 27:00 People-centric-

Rishi Sunak 27:00 Right

Akshata Murty 27:00 ... uh, uh, skills and people-centric focus, essentially. So, so I think Stanford's great because they don't allow you to major as such. Like, you don't do a finance MBA or a marketing.

Rishi Sunak 27:13 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 27:14 Um, and so you invariably have to take a broad mix. But I think we came, because of our relationship, we were able to g- get each other to try the other thing, right?

Rishi Sunak 27:25 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 27:25 Um-

Rishi Sunak 27:26 And if I look back, I mean, you, you were right on that. And the thing is, you, at that age, I think you probably undervalue how important those things are. And then the thing is in, if, if you wanna end up in life in a leadership position, then those things are more valuable, right? Like, actually, you will always be able to learn how to do the finance and the accounting and these ways to do it.

Akshata Murty 27:44 I think maybe more val-

Rishi Sunak 27:45 And, and, and actually, the AI will be able to do it for you. But, you know, figuring, you know, why something didn't work-

Akshata Murty 27:51 Mm

Rishi Sunak 27:51 ... is, is because of the, is it the people aspect of it?

Akshata Murty 27:54 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 27:54 It's how you set up your, the team. Why is that person not motivated?

Akshata Murty 27:58 What's the culture?

Rishi Sunak 27:58 Right? Or-

Akshata Murty 27:58 What's your approach to risk?

Rishi Sunak 28:00 It won't be because of-

Akshata Murty 28:01 Um-

Rishi Sunak 28:01 ... like, someone didn't get the DCF right, right? [laughs] Like or whatever it is. And, and so same-

Akshata Murty 28:05 More so now.

Rishi Sunak 28:06 Yeah. And that's why with our kids, as, again, when they're thinking about all those things, it's, it's where do you... Whether it's an undergrad, grad, or in the, in life, where do you pick up that set of skills? And actually, educational institutions are the right place to do it. And I remember you made this point to me, because I, you know, I wasn't, uh, British and reserved and-

Akshata Murty 28:24 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 28:25 ... and you were more comfortable being-

Akshata Murty 28:26 Or more risk-taking

Rishi Sunak 28:27 ... vulnerable. Yeah, I... But you were more comfortable being emotionally vulnerable with other people. And, and that is the place to do it. 'Cause if you're trying to understand, well, how do you give feedback, which is a critis-

Akshata Murty 28:36 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 28:36 If you're trying to build a team, run a team, in any context, like, like being able to give feedback and manage people is so critical. A- and, and actually trying to figure that out in a low-risk enviro- trusted environment at, say, business school is, is much better than trying to figure it out-

Akshata Murty 28:56 In the real world, right?

Rishi Sunak 28:56 ... on the job, you know, when you're 40 and running it.

Akshata Murty 28:57 Well, well, that's what you're doing with the Foundery in a way, right? You're saying, "Guys and gals, come together-

Rishi Sunak 29:02 Mm-hmm

Akshata Murty 29:02 ... and build something you're passionate about.

Rishi Sunak 29:05 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 29:06 But do that in this intense way." And frankly, it is more low risk than if they had to go out in the real world and do it themselves, um, because I think everything comes down to people in the end, right?

Rishi Sunak 29:21 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 29:22 Um, so-

Rishi Sunak 29:24 Yeah, so understanding people-

Akshata Murty 29:25 So, so understanding people

Rishi Sunak 29:26 ... at a, at a, in a better way, which-

Akshata Murty 29:27 Mm

Rishi Sunak 29:28 ... uh, which again, is... So those are the, I think what I'd say, you know, kids as an engineer this, but it's these other things I'd wanna make sure one way or another, from school, from college, from whatever else, they're building those skill sets, uh, because I think those, whatever happens with AI, those will be more and more valuable over time.

Akshata Murty 29:45 I always say to, um, Rishi, I'm so intrigued and, and frankly, more convinced, uh, than ever that in the world of AI, let's figure out, let's lean into being more human.

Rishi Sunak 29:59 Mm.

Akshata Murty 29:59 And what does it mean to be more human? We can have a conversation around that. Um,

Akshata Murty 30:05 but, but I think to me, those qualities are compassion-

Rishi Sunak 30:08 Becomes... Yeah, becomes more important, less-

Akshata Murty 30:10 Right

Rishi Sunak 30:10 ... not less important. Yeah.

Akshata Murty 30:11 Compassion and intuition and things like that. Now, you can tell me whether AI can learn all of that, maybe in time, AGI, et cetera, but-Let's lean into those human skills. Um, and those are not... And I think schools are changing. Schools, because I now have been, uh, uh, in one shape or form, I an- I have been a part of the Indian education system, the US education system, and the British education system

Rishi Sunak 30:41 Through the kids, yeah

Akshata Murty 30:41 ... through the kids. And, um, in all of these places, I see it is changing, Nikhil. It was not, it's not like when I was growing up, right? Um-

Rishi Sunak 30:51 But I mean, it-

Akshata Murty 30:52 But is it changing fast enough? That's a question

Rishi Sunak 30:54 Yeah. I think that is the key, right? And it's, and I think because probably 'cause the same with you, like we're closer to the technology development.

Akshata Murty 31:03 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 31:03 Like, so we see what's happening there, and the government always moves slower [laughs] than that, even at the best of times. And changing whole systems like an education system takes time.

Akshata Murty 31:13 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 31:13 But my, my general, and I was saying this, uh, you know, last week at AI Summit, right? That you, what political leaders can't afford to do is treat AI like tomorrow's problem. It is an action this day issue.

Akshata Murty 31:29 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 31:29 And, and, and there probably is not much, I mean, you don't... I don't think you see a huge amount of debate and discussion about changing the education system, um, which then needs to-

Nikhil Kamath 31:39 So in a way we are saying being a generalist is better than being an expert?

Akshata Murty 31:43 Uh, yeah. I mean, so interesting-

Rishi Sunak 31:45 Go

Akshata Murty 31:46 ... uh, 'cause I would think that you would say, no, you, you need to build deep skills in a couple of things.

Rishi Sunak 31:50 I think you, you, so I, I think this is, yeah. [laughs] So we might not say the same thing. I dunno. I, so-

Akshata Murty 31:56 And I would use a different word for generalist.

Rishi Sunak 31:58 Yeah

Akshata Murty 31:58 I would say breadth.

Rishi Sunak 31:59 I think the, I think the set of what- the horizontal skills-

Akshata Murty 32:03 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 32:04 ... you need those which are not domain specific, right? The critical reasoning, thinking, judgment, all those human-centric skills that we just talked about-

Akshata Murty 32:14 Mm

Rishi Sunak 32:14 ... empathy, feedback, dispute, regula- um, uh-

Akshata Murty 32:17 Regulation, yeah

Rishi Sunak 32:17 ... yeah, exactly. Dispute ne- negotiation, all, all those human-centric skills-

Akshata Murty 32:21 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 32:22 ... and a set of cognitive, but horizontal cognitive skills like critical reasoning. I, so that's where you need what I call horizontal skills, which aren't domain specific.

Akshata Murty 32:31 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 32:32 But I am-

Akshata Murty 32:33 But-

Rishi Sunak 32:33 I don't think it's old-fashioned, but I still think y- y- if you want to do something well, you have to-

Akshata Murty 32:42 Have deep knowledge in it

Rishi Sunak 32:43 ... master it. And, and, and you know, you, you, you want to do something well, you stand up, you need to commit time and effort to, to being someone who, who is, stands out on it. Now look, that is easier now. Well, sorry, the, what's easier now is for many more people to reach a high knowledge level because of AI.

Akshata Murty 33:03 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 33:03 Right?

Akshata Murty 33:04 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 33:04 So it's harder to stand out for that, but you can't not have that. That's my view. Now, that might be a bit of an old-fashioned view, but I tend to think if you are talking to someone who's pitching you for one of your-

Akshata Murty 33:17 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 33:18 ... companies, right? And in this foundry, and they'd say, "Okay, they've got an idea for a confectionary business." If, if they don't know the confectionary market in India inside out-

Akshata Murty 33:30 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 33:30 ... I think it would be... I mean, I don't know. I mean, I would find that odd. Right? I would expect them to know, uh, more about the confectionary market than-

Akshata Murty 33:38 And-

Rishi Sunak 33:38 ... anyone else that I speak to

Akshata Murty 33:39 ... and my thing is-

Nikhil Kamath 33:40 Mm

Akshata Murty 33:40 ... you only build deep knowledge in something, I think, if you're passionate about it.

Nikhil Kamath 33:45 Mm.

Akshata Murty 33:46 And so when I think of that in the context of entrepreneurship-

Nikhil Kamath 33:49 Mm-hmm

Akshata Murty 33:49 ... take the confectionary business. This person probably, for a number of reasons, deeply cares about that space.

Nikhil Kamath 33:57 Mm.

Akshata Murty 33:58 And that's when innovation happens, I think.

Nikhil Kamath 33:59 Mm.

Akshata Murty 34:00 Right? So deep knowledge combined with passion-

Nikhil Kamath 34:03 Mm

Akshata Murty 34:04 ... combined with this breadth of skills that we've talked about is, is, is I think an incredibly interesting-

Rishi Sunak 34:14 But to your point, and I, this is on college, right? So if, if, if one of our kids was doing a degree or they're choosing a degree, and whatever it is, engineering, English, economics, if all they did for the three, four years was just study that, that subject-

Akshata Murty 34:33 Mm

Rishi Sunak 34:33 ... without building those broad capabilities, then that would be, I think, a problem, right? They would not be-

Akshata Murty 34:41 Mm

Rishi Sunak 34:41 ... set up to succeed in, in this world.

Akshata Murty 34:43 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 34:43 Now, I, you can build those capabilities through the subject. You can do it as a standalone class. But if, if all you did is just study the pure subject and you are the expert on this industrial economics over here, and that macroeconomics over there, and you know, Dario talking about Corno equilibriums took me back to my industrial economics classes. Um, but it's like that, that is not sufficient.

Akshata Murty 35:06 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 35:06 Like that-

Akshata Murty 35:07 Mm

Rishi Sunak 35:07 ... is absolutely not sufficient if you haven't left at the same time with that, that horizontal-

Akshata Murty 35:10 I think that comes back to what makes you more, uh, us more human.

Rishi Sunak 35:14 I-

Nikhil Kamath 35:14 Are you guys like this at home?

Rishi Sunak 35:16 Are we-

Akshata Murty 35:17 We, we-

Rishi Sunak 35:18 What, what does like this mean? [laughs]

Akshata Murty 35:20 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 35:21 Sorry. What is the this?

Akshata Murty 35:24 Again, again, because we're on camera. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 35:26 What's the this? What, what I'm interested-

Akshata Murty 35:30 Having interesting conversations

Rishi Sunak 35:31 ... what-

Akshata Murty 35:31 Having interesting conversations, you mean?

Nikhil Kamath 35:32 You finish each other's lines off.

Rishi Sunak 35:34 Oh.

Akshata Murty 35:35 I think we are. I really do.

Nikhil Kamath 35:38 Yeah. But underneath you don't agree. Not always.

Akshata Murty 35:40 No, we, we, we-

Rishi Sunak 35:41 Oh, we-

Akshata Murty 35:41 Oh, we've-

Nikhil Kamath 35:41 Not always.

Rishi Sunak 35:42 Oh, yeah.

Akshata Murty 35:43 Well, uh, good, good, uh, good way to put it. So I think our end, our destination is always the same.

Nikhil Kamath 35:50 Which is?

Akshata Murty 35:52 Well, so, so-

Rishi Sunak 35:54 Depends on the situation

Akshata Murty 35:55 ... yes. Like we end up coming, arriving at the same decision, say.

Rishi Sunak 35:58 For the most part.

Akshata Murty 35:59 For the most part. For the most part. Or at least in all the big stuff, no?

Nikhil Kamath 36:02 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 36:02 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 36:03 But I think our journeys are-

Rishi Sunak 36:06 We don't start, yeah, and we don't start from... We don't often start, I think we, we probably rarely start from the same place.

Akshata Murty 36:13 Oh, I was just gonna say our, our approaches are quite different.

Rishi Sunak 36:16 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 36:16 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 36:17 Exactly.

Akshata Murty 36:17 Right? So for example, if there's a, a, a something to do with, with our children, we'll kind of know what, how we... We know in fact what the answer is-

Rishi Sunak 36:27 We know what we're solving for

Akshata Murty 36:28 What we're solving for, that's right. But-

Rishi Sunak 36:30 But then-

Akshata Murty 36:31 I will do it-

Rishi Sunak 36:31 ... you'll come at it, the way you will come at it and the way I will come at it-

Akshata Murty 36:34 Ex- exact approach

Rishi Sunak 36:35 ... will be... Yeah, approach, our starting point will be different.

Akshata Murty 36:38 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 36:38 Right?

Nikhil Kamath 36:38 How is it different?

Akshata Murty 36:40 You go and then I'll go.

Rishi Sunak 36:41 Uh, well, I, look, I, I will probably come at it from a more analytical, more practical-

Akshata Murty 36:47 Process-oriented-

Rishi Sunak 36:48 Process-oriented

Akshata Murty 36:49 ... structured.

Rishi Sunak 36:49 Well, stru- that's how-

Akshata Murty 36:50 Like even in this interview, he's giving me the evil eye when I'm, like, a bit all over the place.

Rishi Sunak 36:55 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 36:55 And he's like, "No, that wasn't the question." [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 36:58 I didn't catch it.

Rishi Sunak 36:58 No, I, I-

Akshata Murty 37:00 I know the evil eye. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 37:02 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 37:02 Can you show us?

Rishi Sunak 37:03 No, I can't. [laughs]

Akshata Murty 37:05 A subtle evil eye. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 37:09 I didn't think I was doing that. No.

Akshata Murty 37:10 Only when I-

Rishi Sunak 37:11 No, and then you, you will come at it, you-

Akshata Murty 37:12 And I will come at it with heart-

Rishi Sunak 37:14 Mm-hmm

Akshata Murty 37:15 ... with passion, w- like-

Rishi Sunak 37:19 More, and we-

Akshata Murty 37:19 ... quite risk-taking.

Rishi Sunak 37:21 And more intuitive.

Akshata Murty 37:22 And m- uh, uh, yeah. Heart, intuitive. Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 37:24 And less structured. Yeah.

Akshata Murty 37:26 And much less structured.

Rishi Sunak 37:26 And less practical. Yeah. And I will be... Uh, so although we're solving for the same thing-

Akshata Murty 37:31 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 37:31 ... you know, what's best for our kid, or what should we do in X, or whatever it is-

Akshata Murty 37:35 Well, like, I mean, let's talk about something, right? Like, going into politics. Rishi, you didn't grow up thinking you would want to go into politics. Uh, but when he first talked to me about it, I'm like, "Great, we... You know, you can make a real impact and solve all these challenges." And Rishi just has a more structured approach to that. Um, and I thought that was really-

Rishi Sunak 37:55 Yeah. But we... On all those things, so we'll... So anyway, we talk about... So we talk... Uh, when your point is, so we talk a lot, and then the, the, you know, it, then it will probably at some point, you know, uh, we're better at na-

Akshata Murty 38:12 What are you saying it'll erupt? [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 38:14 [laughs] The hand gesture was not... No, it, it might, it might do a bit of that, right? If it's a particularly big thing and we've come at it differently, then there'll be a bit of that, where it'll go away, then we'll come back at it and, and, and, and on, as you say, on all, on all the big things, we-

Akshata Murty 38:32 We have the same-

Rishi Sunak 38:32 And we end up being very happy, I think, having been through the process.

Akshata Murty 38:36 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 38:37 And we have enough trust now, I mean, you know, however long we've been married, like 15, 16, whatever years. Um, we have enough trust that the process is, even if it's a bit fraught during-

Nikhil Kamath 38:49 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 38:49 ... we trust the process, right?

Akshata Murty 38:51 We trust the pro- and we trust each other.

Rishi Sunak 38:52 Each other. Yeah.

Akshata Murty 38:53 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 38:53 No, no. There's that.

Akshata Murty 38:54 So, so I think it's w- we know that the other person genuinely believes in the same things.

Nikhil Kamath 39:03 Which are?

Akshata Murty 39:04 Uh, so, so to me, when I say that, I think values, right? And I think those values, we share so many, which are around integ- having a great deal of integrity, working hard, being curious about the world around you, um, and having compassion, I think.

Rishi Sunak 39:24 Yeah. And respecting everybody.

Akshata Murty 39:26 And, and great respect and, and compassion. Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 39:28 Where did the values come from?

Akshata Murty 39:30 I think from our parents.

Rishi Sunak 39:31 Parents.

Akshata Murty 39:32 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 39:33 Yeah. And that, and that was the bit that as the superficial differences-

Akshata Murty 39:37 Mm

Rishi Sunak 39:37 ... but I remember, remember the, when they met, that, uh-

Akshata Murty 39:41 What, at your parents' home, or what you think?

Rishi Sunak 39:42 Yeah. Yeah. That, they, uh... Where you... So our parents first met, which I was, I was stressed about because of the-

Akshata Murty 39:49 I was not nervous

Rishi Sunak 39:50 ... but it was fine. She left me to deal with it. [laughs] And it was, uh, and it was stressful because they weren't very... I mean, I was, I... She knew both sets, I knew both sets. But anyway, they, when they met, and they came, her parents came with her uncle to my, um, to my parents' house in Southampton. And, and I was there, my brother was there. And it, it, I, I mean, it was genuinely stressful because they were so different on the-

Akshata Murty 40:14 On the surface

Rishi Sunak 40:14 ... face. On the surface.

Nikhil Kamath 40:15 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 40:16 But it ended up being, um, it ended up being really positive-

Akshata Murty 40:21 Mm

Rishi Sunak 40:21 ... because... And that was the thing that your parents had, had said to me.

Akshata Murty 40:25 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 40:26 They said, "We, we, we'd, we're apprehensive 'cause we just didn't know whether they would have the same values to us." Obviously they're-

Akshata Murty 40:32 They're different

Rishi Sunak 40:33 ... different.

Akshata Murty 40:34 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 40:34 Um, but actually, how, what the things that-

Akshata Murty 40:38 Their approach to life

Rishi Sunak 40:38 ... to life, the things that they value, the things that are important to them, how they've raised you, being in your house-

Akshata Murty 40:42 Education being one of them, right?

Rishi Sunak 40:43 One of them. Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 40:44 So are values more nurture than nature? You were not born with them?

Akshata Murty 40:50 Are values more-

Rishi Sunak 40:51 Yeah

Akshata Murty 40:51 ... nurture than nature? Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 40:54 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 40:54 I mean, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 40:55 Uh.

Akshata Murty 40:55 I, I, I think they are. I mean, I say that. Um, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 40:59 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 40:59 I think they are. Um, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 41:04 Yeah. I think so.

Nikhil Kamath 41:05 I was talking to my therapist, I was speaking with my therapist recently.

Akshata Murty 41:10 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 41:10 I'm, I'm gonna-

Nikhil Kamath 41:11 Yeah, please. Go.

Rishi Sunak 41:11 Is that okay?

Nikhil Kamath 41:12 Yeah, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 41:12 I, I was assuming this is not for display.

Nikhil Kamath 41:14 They're very-

Rishi Sunak 41:14 So, yeah.

Akshata Murty 41:14 No. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 41:15 Good, 'cause I'm not... I'll just, yeah, tuck in, right. [laughs]

Akshata Murty 41:18 Rishi is so ridiculous. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 41:20 No, I was just sitting there and I didn't wanna... Polite and whatnot, so...

Akshata Murty 41:23 He does this in every... Anytime there is a-

Rishi Sunak 41:27 It's food

Akshata Murty 41:27 ... uh, uh, there's anything we've done together. Oh, that's it. We had this... We, we, um, had a, a great meeting with, with another s- international leader and his spouse, and, uh, they had catered afternoon tea, which was very nice. And, you know, we were all, rightly, you know, you meet them for the first time, you're trying to make sense of each other, making sure that they're comfortable. But there are all these cakes, and then halfway through it, Rishi's like, "Well, I'm gonna start on the cakes." And it actually was great because no one else was d- touching any of the food. We were-

Nikhil Kamath 42:02 Mm.

Akshata Murty 42:02 It was a genuine kind of, we're looking for an ice breaker, and Rishi just went straight in for the food. So, um-

Nikhil Kamath 42:08 How was the journey, Rishi,

Nikhil Kamath 42:10 from going from being a person who was at Goldman Sachs to becoming the Prime Minister of UK? I know it's a big question.

Rishi Sunak 42:21 It's a big question.

Akshata Murty 42:22 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 42:22 Yeah. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 42:23 Um, well, I think the, the first thing to say, it was the-... journey that I had imagined

Nikhil Kamath 42:33 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 42:34 ... even if it happened far faster than I would have imagined. Because I, you know, I'm one of these people who thinks if, you know, if you want to go into politics, you are far better off having done something first. That's my view. Uh, and I think that because, A, A, you bring a set of skills and experience about something else into the political arena, which is just a good thing, and you have that knowledge which you can contribute. But also from a mi-

Nikhil Kamath 43:06 And an understanding of the real world.

Rishi Sunak 43:08 Yeah. Yeah, with this-

Nikhil Kamath 43:09 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 43:09 ... uh, I think... Oh, actually you're saying what I think I'm about to say, which is-

Nikhil Kamath 43:13 Oh, sorry.

Rishi Sunak 43:13 No, no, no, I think it's, it's the same thing

Nikhil Kamath 43:16 Completing each other's sentences.

Rishi Sunak 43:17 [laughs] No, which is it's a slightly different mindset to how you approach things, 'cause if you've spent your entire life in politics, you tend to see everything with a political lens. You, you see the politics in every situation or every problem, whereas if you've done something else first and you've just had a normal experience in doing business, teaching, medicine, whatever it is, armed forces, uh, then you come into politics, you don't see the life through a political prism, and I think that is better. So for those reasons, I think doing something else first is, is the right way to do it. Certainly, that's what I wanted to do. So in that sense, the, the career path was one that I had broadly thought about, um, obviously it happened, happened a lot, a lot quicker. And I think the other thing which was important to me, which we talked about a lot at Stanford, was I, financial independence and financial-

Nikhil Kamath 44:08 Mm

Rishi Sunak 44:08 ... security was important to me as a precondition to going into public service.

Nikhil Kamath 44:13 Doesn't politics afford that?

Rishi Sunak 44:14 Sorry?

Nikhil Kamath 44:14 Politics gives you financial security as well, right?

Rishi Sunak 44:17 Uh, de- I mean, why, why do you say that?

Nikhil Kamath 44:22 Aren't British politicians paid well?

Rishi Sunak 44:24 They are paid well by average wage standards. So, you know, there's a body that sets politicians' wages relative to a set of professional classes. So in the... If you look at what the average person in the UK earns, politicians are, are, are paid considerably more than, more than that. But for the financial security that I wanted-

Nikhil Kamath 44:45 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 44:45 Right? Everyone has their own view, right?

Nikhil Kamath 44:47 Yeah, yeah. No, I hear you.

Rishi Sunak 44:47 For financial se-

Nikhil Kamath 44:47 For somebody who went to Stanford-

Rishi Sunak 44:49 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 44:49 ... probably not from that benchmark.

Rishi Sunak 44:51 Yeah. Uh, so from... So, uh, there was a degree of financial security that I wanted, which was not just to be able to live my life-

Nikhil Kamath 44:58 Yeah, but I-

Rishi Sunak 44:58 ... but to make sure my family were okay-

Nikhil Kamath 45:00 Correct

Rishi Sunak 45:00 ... that our kids would be able to have, uh, flexibility, that the person-

Nikhil Kamath 45:04 Mm

Rishi Sunak 45:04 ... that I met would be able to have flexibility. Obviously, I, I, I met Akshata. But so I, I kind of came into it wanting, you know, wanting to be able to give my kids, my family-

Nikhil Kamath 45:15 To provide, yeah

Rishi Sunak 45:16 ... a, a, a, a, the choice actually to, to not have to maybe [laughs] do what I did. I mean, I was lucky. I liked something. I was passionate about something. To your point, I happened to be passionate about something which is also well rewarded financially, but it was very important to me to have that financial independence. Bringing this other set of experience and skills into politics and government was important. So, you know, in that sense, the, the, the journey happened, you know, as I would've wanted it to. I think, you, what was different about it was the speed.

Nikhil Kamath 45:50 Right.

Rishi Sunak 45:51 At, uh, the speed in which it happened, which if I, if I look back and I kinda think, you know, what do I think differently about the world now than I used to at the start of that journey, you know, I used to think, you know, I, I used to think speed was-

Nikhil Kamath 46:15 Thank you. Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 46:18 Yeah. You know, I, I used to think speed was the most important thing.

Nikhil Kamath 46:23 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 46:24 And I've come to appreciate that patience is, uh, almost a bigger competitive advantage. A- and I think when you're that age, Nikhil, it... I'm s- I'm sure your resume would-

Nikhil Kamath 46:40 I am that age.

Rishi Sunak 46:40 Sorry? [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 46:41 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 46:41 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 46:41 No, now I would say you're not. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 46:44 Oh, but I, I think when you're, when you're in your 20s and you're... I think you're, you're constantly-

Nikhil Kamath 46:48 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 46:49 ... thinking about, "I've got to get to this point-

Nikhil Kamath 46:50 The next step

Rishi Sunak 46:51 ... the next point, the next thing." And, you know, the list, uh, you know, 30 under 30, young rising stars-

Nikhil Kamath 46:56 Mm

Rishi Sunak 46:56 ... 40 [laughs] under 40 list, and, and you are focused on getting to the next thing, and if I don't do this by this point, then the, the window is gone, and I, I was very much like that.

Nikhil Kamath 47:04 Then I'm not going to be successful.

Rishi Sunak 47:05 And so I'm not gonna be successful. Um, and I think that given... And it might be a strange thing for someone who's had my career path to say, right? You end up being prime, youngest prime minister in 200 years, and in one sense, that's incredible. But in other sense, as I say, patience is its own competitive advantage because, you know, there is some times when actually it's, it's worse to arrive too early than it is to arrive too late to something.

Nikhil Kamath 47:36 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 47:36 And it's very much not the view of kind of people on, in entrepreneurs building companies, but certainly from my experience, there's some things that you, you, you reach the position, but you then want to be able to be at your best when you have that position or that role, whatever it might be.

Nikhil Kamath 47:52 And I also think it-

Rishi Sunak 47:52 And sometimes that comes with experience and making sure that you have the experience and the judgment to make good decisions when you're in that role.

Nikhil Kamath 47:58 Right. Is it also rate of growth that keeps you happy?

Rishi Sunak 48:03 For me, yes.

Nikhil Kamath 48:05 So now what happens after having-

Rishi Sunak 48:07 After you've done this thing? Yeah. So-

Nikhil Kamath 48:09 Mm

Rishi Sunak 48:10 ... you know-

Nikhil Kamath 48:11 We've had lots of incredibly-

Rishi Sunak 48:13 Talked about this

Nikhil Kamath 48:13 ... uh, interesting discussions.

Rishi Sunak 48:15 Yeah. I think probably the slightly discomforting thing for me, which Akshata's helped me get more comfortable with, is for the first time in my life, I'm, I, I don't n- you know, I don't know what the, the next-

Nikhil Kamath 48:29 Next thing

Rishi Sunak 48:30 ... the next thing is.

Nikhil Kamath 48:30 What to work towards.

Rishi Sunak 48:31 What, what I'm not working towards a-

Nikhil Kamath 48:32 Like, what specific thing to work

Rishi Sunak 48:33 ... specific thing. Right.

Nikhil Kamath 48:34 Will the high ever be the same if... I mean, you were at the pinnacle of-

Rishi Sunak 48:39 ... validation and importance- Yeah ... in society.

Akshata Murty 48:41 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 48:42 I don't think any amount of money will get you there.

Akshata Murty 48:45 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 48:46 So what is the high that makes you feel like relatively higher than the previous high? Yeah. I- So-

Akshata Murty 48:53 So-

Rishi Sunak 48:54 Go on.

Akshata Murty 48:54 So for me, and I think the same for you, or you're seeing that more now, having this somewhat of a blank canvas is exciting-

Rishi Sunak 49:05 Yeah

Akshata Murty 49:05 ... because I love trying out different things. I love... You know, we were talking earlier about risk-taking, et cetera. Not taking risk for the sake of a risk, but having a blank canvas, or some people might say starting over again, right?

Rishi Sunak 49:23 Mm.

Akshata Murty 49:25 Um, that's quite exciting.

Rishi Sunak 49:26 Mm.

Akshata Murty 49:27 Because also we have had, both of us, what feels like the... Because we've been together for now 20 years, these incredibly meaningful, um, uh, just incredible experiences. If... So w- w- what's... W- we have a blank canvas, but I would like to think we have wisdom with it, and we have... We're, we're lucky. We, we are able to do things that interest us, that fuel our passions. Um, so I would say that's the first thing. The, uh... I, I don't know if that's a high or not, but it's exciting to have that blank canvas.

Rishi Sunak 50:07 Mm.

Akshata Murty 50:07 And we're starting to lay color on it in our own way.

Rishi Sunak 50:11 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 50:11 Um, in ways that are deeply meaningful to us. We're not just doing it to tick a box, right? Um, not doing it because we have to get to the next milestone. We don't even know what the next milestone is. Um, w- it's liberating.

Rishi Sunak 50:26 Yeah. I think that's it. It is, in a way, liberating. So I'm 45.

Akshata Murty 50:32 Mm-hmm. We're 45.

Rishi Sunak 50:33 We're 45. Um, you know, Go- you know, God willing, I've, I've got more both... We've got more working years ahead of us than I've got behind us. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and that... When you think of it like that, I, I can't, I can't, um, live day to day thinking that the most important thing I've done or-

Akshata Murty 50:58 Has already happened

Rishi Sunak 50:59 ... already happened- Yeah ... and nothing else I do in life will give me the same fulfillment or purpose. High is the word you used. I, I... A, I don't believe that, and that it would be a hard [laughs] way to, to live if, if, if you did. And, and the liberating thing is, like Akshata said, is for someone who's always been on this, you know, track, and it's like, "Okay, I need to get into this university, and then that, that degree, and then that internship, and that job, and, you know, that MP, and/or that business school [laughs] and that MP, and then this get into the cabinet and that job," et cetera. I... Like, this is... This blank canvas thing is, is entrepreneurial, right? And there's a ful- You know that better than most, right? There's a fulfillment that comes from building something- Mm ... with a blank... Starting with a blank canvas, as Akshata said. So that's what we're now doing. And, and as you said, it's exciting because you get to start this second chapter, second half of your professional life with all these incredible experiences and skills that you've built up- Yeah ... which you didn't have on that journey, and that's what I was saying before. Whereas before it was like rush, rush, rush, rush, rush.

Akshata Murty 52:01 It was... It felt... I'm not putting words in your mouth.

Rishi Sunak 52:03 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 52:03 But it ca- I think when you're 18, 22, starting your first job, et cetera, I think you... It, it, it can sometimes feel theoretical where you know in your head, "Oh, I have to do this job, this degree to get this job, to get to this place." Whereas now we don't just rely on kind of established frameworks. We're able to deep dive into what I will call wisdom, right?

Rishi Sunak 52:37 Mm.

Akshata Murty 52:37 We are able to build on those incredible frameworks which are given to you by education, your values, your, your, your, uh, career, um, uh, experiences, your professional experiences, but also just having had the, the vast range of meaningful experiences-

Rishi Sunak 52:59 And, and, and-

Akshata Murty 52:59 ... and you're only 45

Rishi Sunak 53:00 ... yeah, and learning. And you learn from them, right?

Akshata Murty 53:01 And you learn from it.

Rishi Sunak 53:01 All the failures you've had-

Akshata Murty 53:03 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 53:03 ... all the things that you've got wrong and reflected on, and the things that you've got right and understanding what, what you're good at and why you get them right. I... Like, I, I ha- I have to believe that roughly, you know, worked 20-something years, will have 20-something years left to work, I'm... Should be far better set up for success over this next 20 than I was [laughs] over the last 20. But it depends on how you define success, I guess.

Akshata Murty 53:28 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 53:29 Yes. Yeah. But if you're defining success by one particular job or position, then, then maybe, but I don't think either of us-

Akshata Murty 53:38 No. Yeah, yeah

Rishi Sunak 53:39 ... think about, about success like that. So that maybe is not- This is very personal to me. A lot of people... Like last night, a bunch of kids were asking me, "Why don't you become a politician?" Yeah.

Akshata Murty 53:47 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 53:48 And I've never thought of it. I don't have any plan or any inclination whatsoever, but I really want to know, how does it feel? Like, to go from working in a corporation to- Yeah ... becoming the prime minister, how does the attention feel? How does the, the criticism feel? Yeah, yeah. How does the responsibility

Rishi Sunak 54:15 feel?

Akshata Murty 54:15 Responsibility, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 54:16 Yeah. So, you know, for someone who's entering into politics, you know, I... Like, I get asked a similar question. You know, for young people who are thinking about politics, you know, I say to them, "There's... You need to be resilient, you need to be patient, and you need to be motivated by public service more than ambition."

Akshata Murty 54:43 At, at some level.

Rishi Sunak 54:45 [laughs] So those are the-I think the things that you, you need to make sure that you have-

Akshata Murty 54:50 What's under that, though? The day you figured you're becoming Prime Minister, did you sit at home and you're like, "This happened"? [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 54:57 I didn't have time.

Akshata Murty 54:58 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 54:58 N- Nik- Nikhil, I, I, yeah. I-

Akshata Murty 55:01 [laughs] It has to be a big thing, right?

Rishi Sunak 55:03 Yeah, I... You know what? It, it, it, for me, the circumstances in which I became Prime Minister, it was so sudden-

Akshata Murty 55:10 Mm

Rishi Sunak 55:11 ... I didn't have time to-

Akshata Murty 55:13 Mm

Rishi Sunak 55:13 ... to do m- much of that. I- we were in different places that weekend, funnily enough.

Akshata Murty 55:17 Yeah, I was in Yorkshire and you were in London.

Rishi Sunak 55:20 I was in London. I was, I was, one minute I was with our two kids at TGI Fridays in bowling. I'd just lost a quite bruising leadership election to, to Liz Truss, and I was emotionally starting to look forward to this next chapter of my life, spending time with the kids, thinking about what we were gonna do next. Uh, and so I physically and emotionally [laughs] was in a completely different place. And then all of a sudden this thing happened that I was not, uh, prepared for-

Akshata Murty 55:49 Thinking actively about

Rishi Sunak 55:50 ... actively, uh, emotionally or, or practically, and it happened just so quickly. And so you didn't have time. And then I, you know, it was a battlefield promotion, right?

Akshata Murty 56:00 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 56:00 And there was, you know, a huge number of things that I had to deal with immediately.

Akshata Murty 56:05 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 56:06 So it didn't, I didn't really get to have that type of moment.

Akshata Murty 56:09 I think we had one call with your parents.

Rishi Sunak 56:12 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 56:12 'Cause the, it was, so it was Rishi's mother's 70th birthday that day. It was our youngest daughter's 10th birthday, and it was also Diwali.

Rishi Sunak 56:20 Around all those days that it was happening, yeah.

Akshata Murty 56:21 Yeah. And so we had one phone call with your parents, and that was-

Rishi Sunak 56:25 Yeah, and that was that

Akshata Murty 56:25 ... kind of it, I think.

Rishi Sunak 56:26 It, it, it actually, I f- it first... It, the moment it kind of first properly hit me, 'cause the first few days there was so much to do. It was, I forget whether it was five days, four days, a week later. There was a... 'Cause I got, became Prime Minister around Diwali, and so there was a Downing Street Diwali reception-

Akshata Murty 56:45 Mm

Rishi Sunak 56:45 ... uh, a few days after I became Prime Minister. A- and it was at that moment, I was, you know, I was doing that, and obviously in particular the significance of being first British Asian, first Hindu Prime Minister of the UK, it being Diwali, everyone there was very aware of that, and-

Akshata Murty 57:06 Well, I think it was-

Rishi Sunak 57:06 ... and obviously expressing how much it meant to them. And that's the moment where it kind of did hit me for a second. That aspect of it, um, w- was obviously, uh, it was very nice.

Akshata Murty 57:16 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 57:16 But to your point, it was an extra, also an extra responsibility I felt in a, in a positive way. Uh, you obviously have a responsibility to do a good job in, in general, but, you know, I, I wanted to also make sure I did an extra good [laughs] job because I was the first of, of, and representing a lot of hopes and dreams of a community that I- I wanted to make sure that I could make them proud as well. Um-

Akshata Murty 57:41 It's also crazy because the British ruled India up until 1947, and, you know, in a world where we still speak about things like racism, is there a line like while you speak to me, and I watched a bunch of interviews, almost everything I think you guys have done in the recent past-

Rishi Sunak 58:01 Mm-hmm

Akshata Murty 58:01 ... but you're very Indian in a way where you took oath on the Gita.

Rishi Sunak 58:07 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 58:07 You have Diwali parties, you speak about her parents a lot. Is there a line where you could become too Indian in a way that while you're actively in politics in, in England-

Rishi Sunak 58:20 Mm

Akshata Murty 58:20 ... it could become a problem?

Rishi Sunak 58:21 Uh, it, you-

Akshata Murty 58:22 It never did

Rishi Sunak 58:22 ... I, well, whe- whether it, whether it was going to or not, uh, for me, it was non-negotiable and I wasn't gonna change who I was to make that work. So even if someone had come to me and said, "You need to be a bit less Indian" [laughs] or, you know, "Not talk about this or do that," I, I just wouldn't have... I'm, you know, we talked about it. I made that commitment to myself. I wasn't gonna change who I was for, uh, for that.

Akshata Murty 58:53 To get ahead in this-

Rishi Sunak 58:54 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 58:54 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 58:55 And if it, and I was comfortable with it. If, if it was gonna be a problem, then it w- so be it, right? Like I, I, you know, and it, it just, it was never... That was how I was raised, right? That's who I am. I'm not, I wasn't gonna run away from it, um, just 'cause I had that, had that job. Um, and I, and I also think actually it's a, it was a moment that was remarked on, obviously in the UK when it happened, but not, not so much so. It's not like it really dominated the conversations and that's all everyone was talking about, and people have plenty of issues with me as Prime Minister. That was not really-

Akshata Murty 59:34 Yeah. Yeah

Rishi Sunak 59:35 ... the, the, the reason that, you know, if someone was gonna be upset with me, it wasn't gonna be for that.

Akshata Murty 59:38 But why not? Why didn't it become a bigger deal?

Rishi Sunak 59:40 Well, I think it, I think it's, well, probably 'cause the, because of the country, right? And how it's, you know, how things-

Akshata Murty 59:45 Could never happen in the US, for example. But wait, they had a black president.

Rishi Sunak 59:47 Ev- every country has a different... Yeah, but it was a, it was a big deal when it happened-

Akshata Murty 59:52 Mm

Rishi Sunak 59:53 ... more so than it probably was with me. And I think it just, all countries have their own relationship with these types of topics, and the UK has, has come a long way and that's why I think it's a, it's a good thing that it wasn't a, a-

Akshata Murty 1:00:04 As big a deal

Rishi Sunak 1:00:05 ... a big, a big, a big deal. It

Rishi Sunak 1:00:06 was a kind of, "Oh, okay," and then we move on, and they'll be upset with me about this or that. But they're not because, [laughs] you know, I didn't like what you said here or what you did there.

Akshata Murty 1:00:14 Yeah. And that's why, you know, like-

Rishi Sunak 1:00:15 But not bec- not, not because you, you know, you let a Diwali diya outside the door or-

Akshata Murty 1:00:18 Correct. Even, like, lighting the diyas outside Downing Street

Rishi Sunak 1:00:21 ... or you, or you went back to the temple last weekend or something, you know?

Akshata Murty 1:00:23 I know how it felt so meaningful to us, it was so meaningful to our communities, but we didn't even second-guess it because it felt so natural, and no one made us feel like we should second-guess it-

Rishi Sunak 1:00:38 Yeah

Akshata Murty 1:00:38 ... if that makes sense, right? Like, we didn't feel uncomfortable at all, and I think that's the beauty of the UK is, is the, uh, your ability to-

Rishi Sunak 1:00:47 If I-

Akshata Murty 1:00:47 ... to genuinely believe in what you do.

Rishi Sunak 1:00:48 It was a, it was a very nice moment'cause when you become Prime Minister, you, you, you have, you have to go see the, the monarch, who was the King, who had recently become King, and, um, he informally invites you to form a, a government, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:07 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:01:07 That's, that's how the process works. And so I go along to see him before I go to Downing Street, and, um, you know, it was a... And that was a special moment. You know, he's head of the Church of England, as, as well as, uh, being the King and the monarch and head of state, but has always been someone who's talked about being a defender of faith-

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:28 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:01:28 ... not just the faith, in, in general. But the... And here I was, first British Asian, you know, Hindu Prime Minister of the UK. Um, but the nice thing was, you know, we had tea in the after- you know, it was tea in the afternoon. But because it, it was Diwali, and he's someone who's always been very engaged and supportive of the British Asian community-

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:48 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:01:48 ... in the UK, uh, and he, there were Diwali mithai. So it was not like kind of tea and scones, [laughs] you know, tea and, um, and, and mithai that he'd organized. Um, which was a really lovely-

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:01 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:02:02 ... you know, kind of relatively unremarked moment. Uh, and it, I just, to me, I thought that was a-

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:06 How are they?

Rishi Sunak 1:02:09 How are?

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:10 The monarchy.

Rishi Sunak 1:02:11 Uh, well, you know, we have this, um-

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:13 I've, I've met them a few times. I'm in that British Asian trust, and-

Rishi Sunak 1:02:16 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:02:17 Yes, yes

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:17 ... I also have a colleague of mine who used to be the ex-chief of staff for, uh, Prince Charles.

Akshata Murty 1:02:24 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:24 King Charles.

Rishi Sunak 1:02:25 King Charles.

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:25 Yeah. So I've met him a few times, but in the very shake hand, "Hi, how are you?"

Rishi Sunak 1:02:32 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:32 That kind of way.

Akshata Murty 1:02:33 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:33 But how are they?

Rishi Sunak 1:02:34 I, sure, we have a-

Akshata Murty 1:02:35 I mean, they're wonderfully warm people.

Rishi Sunak 1:02:36 Yes.

Akshata Murty 1:02:37 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:02:37 I mean, look, we, you know, as Prime Minister, you see the King, or previously Queen, every week for what's called an audience. And-

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:44 I watched this in the Winston Churchill documentary, I think.

Rishi Sunak 1:02:46 Ah, okay. Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:02:47 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:47 The meetings, yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:02:48 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:02:48 Yeah, so you have these, these meetings weekly, which, um, a- and the, and then the other thing that is a cast iron rule of, in the UK government and politicians, is that you don't ever talk about [laughs] the royal family-

Akshata Murty 1:03:02 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:03:02 ... or your dialogue with them. But other than to say, as Akshata said, is-

Akshata Murty 1:03:05 They're warm and wonderful

Rishi Sunak 1:03:05 ... as you can see, very, very warm and, um, very welcoming people who are, uh, committed to service.

Akshata Murty 1:03:11 Service, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:03:12 Um, uh, and but particularly, as I said, with King Charles, as you saw, pretty-

Akshata Murty 1:03:15 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:03:15 ... British Asian Trust, it's something that he's supported for-

Akshata Murty 1:03:18 For a long time

Rishi Sunak 1:03:19 ... years and years.

Akshata Murty 1:03:19 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:20 I'm not gonna ask you anything controversial.

Rishi Sunak 1:03:21 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:21 But the thing that did impress me about Prince Charles-

Akshata Murty 1:03:25 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:25 ... is-

Akshata Murty 1:03:26 King Charles

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:26 ... King Charles is-

Akshata Murty 1:03:27 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:28 ... he was into the climate thing-

Akshata Murty 1:03:30 Way before

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:31 ... 20, 30 years before-

Akshata Murty 1:03:33 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:33 ... other people were into it.

Akshata Murty 1:03:34 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:03:34 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:34 Which I thought was very forward-looking.

Akshata Murty 1:03:38 Yeah. Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:03:40 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:03:40 He's a huge... I, I think, like, he really is a naturalist in so many ways, I think.

Rishi Sunak 1:03:45 Mm. Yeah. No, he's very, he's very passionate about, about that. He's very passionate about the natural environment and-

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:50 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:03:51 ... um, is very knowledgeable about it as well. Uh-

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:54 Okay, tell me more about how it felt. After... Okay, the first day, you felt like you didn't have time to react-

Rishi Sunak 1:03:59 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:00 ... because you were in whatever tumultuous, busy, busy, crazy, madness warrior zone. But what happens three months later, six months later? At some point you take cognizance of it, right? Like, you wake up every day and suddenly you have, like, all the security and this-

Rishi Sunak 1:04:17 Yes

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:17 ... and that.

Rishi Sunak 1:04:18 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:18 I've been to 10 Downing Street.

Rishi Sunak 1:04:19 You s-

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:19 Your house changes-

Rishi Sunak 1:04:21 Changes

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:21 ... significantly overnight.

Rishi Sunak 1:04:21 Well, I, so-

Akshata Murty 1:04:22 Who did you visit?

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:24 I think it was-

Akshata Murty 1:04:24 You mean which prime minister?

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:25 I think it was Boris.

Rishi Sunak 1:04:26 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:04:26 It was Boris at the time.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:27 But it has beautiful art in there.

Akshata Murty 1:04:29 Yeah, it does.

Rishi Sunak 1:04:29 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:29 I was so impressed someone took me for a tour.

Akshata Murty 1:04:31 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:04:31 Yeah, no, it's-

Akshata Murty 1:04:32 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:04:32 ... so we were fortunate in one sense, 'cause we'd already been living in Downing Street.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:36 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:04:36 Um, not everyone knows, but there are two apartments-

Akshata Murty 1:04:41 Apartments

Rishi Sunak 1:04:41 ... flats in Downing Street.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:42 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:04:43 One for the Prime Minister and one for the Chancellor.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:45 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:04:46 So, you know, for us and for our kids, we were used to that.

Akshata Murty 1:04:51 It was a familiar space.

Rishi Sunak 1:04:52 So, so that, the, the very physical and practical aspect of having security or living in this building with everything that came along with that was something that we were, we were used to and our kids were used to. And we made the decision not to change, uh, flats.

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:08 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:05:09 When I went from becoming Chancellor to becoming Prime Minister, historically, you would move, um, and I, we made a decision not to do that. We stayed in the smaller-

Akshata Murty 1:05:17 So you were staying in the same apartment, right? So-

Rishi Sunak 1:05:19 So we stayed in the same place. It, it, pr- precisely for our kids, so they had that. And for us, we had the familiarity, uh, with it. Um, and, and actually it's, it's, it's a, it's a funny but lovely environment for the kids. Our younger daughter loves history.

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:34 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:05:34 So she would love being in this, uh, building with all, to your point, all the history and the art. And she gave the best tour of-

Akshata Murty 1:05:41 Artefacts

Rishi Sunak 1:05:41 ... by the time we left, gave the best tour of Downing Street. Uh, and then there are all the incredible staff that live and work there, or work there, the custodians.

Akshata Murty 1:05:49 For, for decades even, a lot of them.

Rishi Sunak 1:05:50 Yeah. And, and they spoil the kids, right? So the kids would go to their security room and get sweets and have fun looking at all the security cameras and kind of spotting what was going on, and-

Akshata Murty 1:06:00 So it was like home away from home in a sense.

Rishi Sunak 1:06:02 It's, uh, you know, they, so they, you know, they, they felt very welcome. Obviously, it's a bit, it's a bit odd. Uh, but, you know, it's a bit strange when, you know, the Deliveroo or, you know, Uber Eats person shows up at the back-

Akshata Murty 1:06:15 Zomato

Rishi Sunak 1:06:15 ... back, back, yeah, exactly. Zomato shows up at the back gate.

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:18 Is Zomato in London?

Rishi Sunak 1:06:19 Uh-

Akshata Murty 1:06:20 I don't think so

Rishi Sunak 1:06:21 ... don't think so.

Akshata Murty 1:06:21 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:06:21 No. Um, but, so there's a, you know, the kids love it. They, they, actually, the lovely lady who ran the cafeteria in Downing Street would always spoil our kids with, uh, with kind of bacon sandwiches in the mornings on their way to school and things like that. So there are these all... And we got a, we got our dog, Nova, while we were in Downing Street.

Akshata Murty 1:06:39 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:06:39 And so she came there as a puppy, so she also got spoiled by hundreds of people. Um, so, you know, there, that, that, that very kind of nice aspect, you kind of are growing up in this community.

Akshata Murty 1:06:50 Mm. And living

Akshata Murty 1:06:51 in this community.

Rishi Sunak 1:06:51 Living in.

Akshata Murty 1:06:52 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:06:52 Now, it has its downsides, obviously. You, the, my, our flat door-You know, Downing Street is ve- much smaller than people realize.

Akshata Murty 1:06:59 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:06:59 It's very kinda higgledy-piggledy-

Akshata Murty 1:07:01 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:07:01 ... in, in like offices and flat. So you'd open our front door to our flat-

Akshata Murty 1:07:04 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:07:04 ... and the Downing Street Policy Unit breakout area-

Akshata Murty 1:07:08 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:07:08 ... is literally- [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:07:09 Yes

Rishi Sunak 1:07:09 ... you open the door and there's people sitting there having a meeting.

Akshata Murty 1:07:11 They, they witnessed quite a few tantrums. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 1:07:12 Uh, so yeah, so like, you know, like, the kids are screaming on your way in, like, "Good morning," and, you know. [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:07:16 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:07:16 So-

Akshata Murty 1:07:16 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:07:16 ... while they're trying to figure something out. So, you know, those are some, you know, kind of day-to-day aspects of it, um, that you, you know, you get, that you get used to. But for us, as I said, the transition was, we hadn't got used to a lot of that, uh, in any case.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:31 Who was the smartest person you think you met while you were in office?

Akshata Murty 1:07:36 Who was the smartest?

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:38 Both of you. And what did you take away? I find this very, very attractive that you get to meet-

Akshata Murty 1:07:46 So many interesting, different types of people.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:48 Yeah, I would just say, like, really, really smart people or really, really accomplished people, which is not necessarily the same as being smart.

Akshata Murty 1:07:55 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:07:55 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:55 But really successful people.

Akshata Murty 1:07:58 Well, uh, we have to think about that, but I'll... Can I just talk about the smart?

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:01 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:08:01 You say smart, but I'll give you probably an unorthodox answer, Nikhil. Um, so I... You know, we've talked a lot about the power of education to transform people's lives. And so when, um, Rishi became PM, I, I thought about, well, what can I do in my own small way to add some value? Because unlike the US-

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:23 Mm-hmm

Akshata Murty 1:08:23 ... um, the UK doesn't have a formal role for the spouse, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:27 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:08:28 Um, and so, uh, but I also knew that, um, I, I would, uh, or I wanted to in some small way have some impact in my own way.

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:41 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:08:41 And so I started this program called Lessons at 10. So every Friday we got kids in from across the country to come in and be inspired. I mean, the theme was be inspired. Be inspired by the building, be inspired by leadership, be inspired to dream. Um, and then every week we had a different theme. So you might love history, I might love rugby, Rishi might love finance, whatever, um, cooking. I mean, across the range. So don't feel like there's only one thing for you. There's... Just go out and explore and you might just find that thing that gets you out of bed. And I, every week, Nikhil, th- I met young people who didn't always... In fact, a lot of the time didn't come with huge kind of advantages in life, but they were so inspiring to me. And I think, um... Thank you. I think that is a memory that will stay with me forever. So it wasn't just one famous person, right? It wasn't one famous name.

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:46 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:09:46 But it was young people, you know, they, with their idealism. I think that was really quite, quite interesting and exciting. I don't know what you think, Rishi.

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:55 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:09:55 Yeah, I don't, I think there's not one...

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:03 Can I serve you?

Akshata Murty 1:10:04 Oh, yes. And I will help myself. Please.

Rishi Sunak 1:10:05 Yeah, I don't wanna... Are you having...?

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:07 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:10:07 Yeah. Perfect.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:08 I, I'll help myself. Thank you.

Rishi Sunak 1:10:09 There you go. There you go. I'll let you. Um, yeah, I don't think there's... Uh-

Akshata Murty 1:10:15 I think there were some special moments. I mean, there were lots of special moments.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:19 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:10:19 I'm thinking, like, the coronation was really special.

Rishi Sunak 1:10:23 In terms of, uh, individuals for, for you... Nikhil's-

Akshata Murty 1:10:25 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:10:25 ... asking about the smarts. I mean, look, there's so... People are smart in so many different ways. They're not one person-

Akshata Murty 1:10:29 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:10:29 ... that has all, all dominant knowledge. But I mean, look, we're living in this e- era of AI, and, you know, I was, I was struck-

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:42 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:10:43 ... spending time with the people developing that technology.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:46 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:10:47 Right? And you, you know them, you've interviewed them, you've met them. But-

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:50 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:10:50 ... I was, you know, uh, Sam, Dario-

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:53 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:10:54 ... and Demis, who's obviously a Brit, uh, came to talk to me about this very early on in my premiership, and-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:02 You interviewed Elon.

Rishi Sunak 1:11:03 I, I interviewed Elon as well around the AI-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:05 I watched that. It was really good

Rishi Sunak 1:11:06 ... A- AI summit.

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:06 You looked like you were really having fun.

Akshata Murty 1:11:08 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 1:11:09 Yeah, I was, um, yeah, I d- I, I mean, I was... Yes, I was. Yeah. [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:11:15 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:11:15 Thank you. Um-

Akshata Murty 1:11:17 That was the first AI Safety Summit.

Rishi Sunak 1:11:18 Yeah, that was on the AI, the, the-

Akshata Murty 1:11:20 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:11:20 ... the evening of the AI Summit.

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:21 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:11:22 Um, you know, so we, you know, we, it was a... Yeah, it was nice. Obviously, being in India this recently for this AI summit here is when we started that summit in Bletchley Park, I didn't imagine that it-

Akshata Murty 1:11:33 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:11:33 ... it would end up... Not end up, but progress to have this incredible event here in India. Um, a- and it's nice to have created this, this series, and it's been to South Korea, it's been to Paris, India, and it will, it will keep going. Um-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:46 How was it this year, the summit?

Rishi Sunak 1:11:48 It was great.

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:49 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:11:49 I j- It, it was... I think a kind of testament to the Prime Minister's leadership that he brought-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:58 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:11:58 ... so many of the leading businesses and, um-

Akshata Murty 1:12:02 Thank you, Nikhil

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:02 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:12:02 ... uh, policy makers together.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:06 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:12:07 But I think it was, for me, what stood out was just the energy and optimism-

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:13 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:12:13 ... of all the Indian entrepreneurs and people involved in this. I, it's a, it was,

Rishi Sunak 1:12:20 you know, really striking.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:22 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:12:22 Just being in the hall, talking to people, such optimism about this-

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:26 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:12:26 ... which is not what you find everywhere.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:28 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:12:28 And particularly in the West, where there is more anxiety about AI. In India, there's optimism and a, a- and excitement and trust.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:37 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:12:37 And that is a, an advantage. Then you also saw the, it was your-

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:40 He's incredibly impressive, isn't he? The Prime Minister?

Rishi Sunak 1:12:43 Yes. Yeah, he's very impressive. I mean, look, I, I used to, uh, you know, talk to him about this when we were, when I was in office. And, you know, he's been talking about the India stack for a long time.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:52 Do you guys speak in Hindi or English?

Rishi Sunak 1:12:53 English. 'Cause my Hindi is not good enough to do work. [laughs] I would not trust it to do any, uh, serious work-

Akshata Murty 1:13:01 Policy in Hindi. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 1:13:01 ... uh, any serious work with. Um-Uh, sadly. Uh, but no, he's someone who's understood the importance of technology, the importance of the-

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:10 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:13:11 ... tech stack. And obviously you see the announcement from Sarvam, which was-

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:14 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:13:15 ... superb. I mean, DPI, you know, Aadhaar, and UPI-

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:18 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:13:19 ... and now these, uh, the Ayushman Bharat health accounts.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:22 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:13:22 You put all that together, the ability to deploy AI applications to over a billion people-

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:26 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:13:27 ... is, uh, is, is again, distinctive-

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:29 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:13:29 ... advantage for India. So, you know, I, all the ingredients are there.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:33 Do you believe sovereign AI has a use case?

Rishi Sunak 1:13:36 Sovereign AI?

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:36 Mm-hmm. Like what Sarvam was trying to build.

Rishi Sunak 1:13:39 Yeah, I... So my approach to sovereignty in AI is, and I've been thinking about this a lot-

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:44 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:13:44 ... obviously. I think, in sovereignty and technology in general is I, you know, my advice to political leaders or what I would do if I was in office is I think you need to do three things. I- the, the first is you need, as a country, to figure out where you can ideally control a part of a critical technology supply chain.

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:10 Right.

Rishi Sunak 1:14:10 So I think it's not realistic for most countries to think they can completely insource an end-to-end-

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:15 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:14:16 ... supply chain, certainly for a country like the UK, for example.

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:18 What do you suspect is that opportunity for India?

Rishi Sunak 1:14:21 Well, look, what people here will, will know better than me, but it's trying to identify either-

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:27 You mean hardware supply chain?

Rishi Sunak 1:14:29 It, but it could be, it could be a-

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:30 Or the both

Rishi Sunak 1:14:30 ... hardware capability, it could be a software capability, it could be, uh, physical. It could be something... It, it could be quite broadly defined.

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:37 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:14:37 But s- something that, and I, you know, as I said, very unlikely that you can end-to-end insource a supply chain. But think about ASML-

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:46 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:14:46 ... that company, critical p- component of the semi supply chain. So if you're the Netherlands, right? That's-

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:54 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:14:54 That's good for you, right? To have. In a world where hard power matters, the world is more fragmented, the geopolitical environment is more competitive. I think to protect yourself, you need to have an ASML strategy. So figure out in the technologies of the future, where can you develop a capability that the world will need? So that's kind of, that's point one. The second point, and where Sarvam comes into it, is you have to diversify your risk-

Nikhil Kamath 1:15:19 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:15:19 ... and take a portfolio approach, right? So there will be some... And what does that mean? It means not having vendor lock in, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:15:25 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:15:26 Making sure you're building applications and systems that are not reliant on a single provider. And look, for some things, you want a frontier US model. Uh, some things you want to have data sovereignty and compute and being provided domestically. You don't need that for everything, but what you need to do is think about your portfolio, figure out where you can dial some things up and dial some things down. Where can you use open source? Where can you rely on Sarvam? Where is it fine to pull something off the shelf from another country that you can switch in and out? So that's where Sarvam comes in, is building that portfolio approach. And then the third thing is partnerships, right? And actually, look, yes, the world is more contested, but partnerships matter, trust matters, and there will be some things that you can work with other countries on to, to mean that-

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:16 You don't have to, to-

Rishi Sunak 1:16:16 Even if you can't do everything yourself-

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:18 All the-

Rishi Sunak 1:16:18 ... but you have enough trusted relationships that you can rely on them. Um, and again, you wouldn't completely rely on them, but as I said, these are, these three components, if you do all three of those, you're giving yourself as much sovereignty as possible. Well, what does that mean, sovereignty? What it means is, you know, an ability to deploy the technology confidently in your own country according to your values, your laws, your priorities.

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:40 But you say deploy and not develop.

Rishi Sunak 1:16:42 Oh, sorry. De- de- de- well, in order to deploy it in accordance with your, and have reliable, trusted access to being able to deploy it, which is why you need that portfolio approach.

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:52 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:16:52 And actually having some, whether you're relying on open source or homegrown models, all plays into a part of that. Um-

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:59 But in a way, you're saying it's better for a country to rely on homegrown or open source rather than relying on American or Chinese sources?

Rishi Sunak 1:17:09 I, I don't think you can be that binary, Nikhil.

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:11 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:17:11 Right? I think if you look at the range of use cases-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:13 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:17:13 ... and what's realistic for any one country to do-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:16 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:17:17 ... right? You, you have to look at your, your kind of approach to technology as a portfolio, and then there will be a range. If I've got very sensitive national security applications-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:28 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:17:28 ... I, I want probably an air-gapped cloud, right? I, I don't want to be reliant on anyone else. I can't have anyone else-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:36 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:17:36 ... kill switch that, right? If I'm doing a healthcare application domestically, I might be a bit more okay with the model provider, as long as I don't have lock-in and I can switch out different providers. Could be open source, could be domestic, could be foreign. But-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:51 And you would be skeptical of sharing data though

Rishi Sunak 1:17:52 ... but I would want the data to stay.

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:53 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:17:54 Right? I would want the... There, I would want my data sovereignty, and I'd want the compute and to be domestic. And then there'll be some other commercial applications where actually i- it's quicker and easier and cheaper to use some foreign thing, and it's, it's not-

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:08 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:18:08 ... mission critical. A- and it's just actually I want to prioritize cost and speed.

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:12 Yeah. I think India has done it for financial data already-

Rishi Sunak 1:18:15 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:15 ... where it's hosted in India.

Rishi Sunak 1:18:17 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:18 I suspect soon all Indian data will be hosted in India.

Rishi Sunak 1:18:21 Yeah. I, I... Look, all countries are... It's not just India. All countries are thinking about these issues differently to how they did in the past, because the geopolitical environment has changed.

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:30 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:18:30 So you have to think about sovereignty.

Rishi Sunak 1:18:32 We're in a world where countries have weaponized supply chains.

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:36 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:18:37 There's more geopolitical-

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:38 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:18:38 ... competition, and you, you can't afford not to have resilience. And, but-

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:45 Do you think the world will continue to move in this direction, where we're kind of like, I don't know if I can call it de-globalisation, where everybody-

Rishi Sunak 1:18:53 It's de-risking.

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:53 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:18:54 It's de-risking. I, I think, you know, if you think about supply chain, it used to be all about just in time.

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:00 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:19:00 Physical supply chain used to be all about just in time, and now it's about just in case.

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:04 But do you mean how countries now operate on their own-

Rishi Sunak 1:19:08 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:08 ... versus the kind of coming together-

Rishi Sunak 1:19:11 And, yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:11 ... global order? There used to be like-I think consensus building-

Guest 1:19:16 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:17 ... maybe up until five years ago.

Guest 1:19:19 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:20 Right now it seems to be everybody for themselves.

Guest 1:19:22 For their own. Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:19:23 But I, I think it-

Guest 1:19:24 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:19:24 ... it's not as stark as that-

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:26 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:19:26 ... in the sense that you have to be more resilient, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:30 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:19:30 You have to think about sovereignty, because that multilateral rules-based system-

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:34 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:19:34 ... much as it existed, it wasn't-

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:37 Let me give you an analogy you will like.

Rishi Sunak 1:19:38 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:38 Like, cricket used to have a World Cup where all the countries in the world came to play and compete.

Guest 1:19:43 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:43 Now there are 20 different leagues.

Rishi Sunak 1:19:46 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:46 One big league, many small leagues, some irrelevant leagues. Something like that.

Guest 1:19:51 Mm. Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:55 Maybe triggered by the Americans-

Rishi Sunak 1:19:58 Hm.

Guest 1:19:59 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:00 ... with tariffs and everything else that they're doing.

Guest 1:20:02 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:20:03 I do still think there is a role for partnerships and cooperation. So look what India's just done.

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:08 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:20:08 Signed trade agreement-

Guest 1:20:09 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:20:09 ... with the UK, signed a trade agreement with the EU. Uh, the U- EU has signed a trade agreement with Latin America. The UK joined the Trans-Pacific-

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:19 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:20:20 ... Partnership. Is currently talking to the Gulf about doing that. So the ASEAN countries are figuring out how to deepen their economic cooperation. So yes, the US has changed its approach, and not just at, with this administration. Those changes have been in place for a while. It's changed its approach to trade, in particular, and, and it, and how it views global defense. Uh, but that doesn't mean that other countries have given up on the idea that there can be mutually beneficial trading relationships-

Guest 1:20:52 So lots of different partnerships

Rishi Sunak 1:20:53 ... and, and, and that they can form mutually beneficial partnerships, whether that's in technology, whether that's in goods, whether that's in sharing, um, critical minerals, supply chain. So I, I don't think it's as stark as every country is just out for itself, but clearly you have to, if you're running a country, be more focused on resilience and sovereignty than you were five years ago.

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:16 Are governments forgiving? Does it come down to one person? I'm just painting the scenario. Let's assume Trump's era comes to an end, and there is a new president. Uh, I don't know, it could be his vice president, it could be Democrats, whoever comes into power, and the UK has a new-

Rishi Sunak 1:21:34 Mm-hmm

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:34 ... prime minister. Do you go back to zero and start all over, or do you remember-

Rishi Sunak 1:21:40 No

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:40 ... and you think that, oh, this person did this?

Rishi Sunak 1:21:43 Uh, so a couple of things. One is to remember that some of these forces have been in place before President Trump. Uh, and it, I... Do I think a future US president is going to suddenly cut all the tariffs? No.

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:59 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:22:00 Right? The baseline of tariffs for the US is going to be higher in the future-

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:04 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:22:04 ... w- I think regardless of who the president is.

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:06 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:22:07 Um, not least because whoever the new president is will have got used to the tariff revenue. [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:11 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:22:11 It's quite a hard thing to, to get rid of. Uh-

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:13 Do you believe that tariffs are, tariffs are inherently a bad thing? 'Cause many countries have custom duties-

Rishi Sunak 1:22:19 Yes, so do you

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:20 ... on US produce.

Rishi Sunak 1:22:21 Yeah. I, d- look, I, I, I'm someone who generally believes in free trade.

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:25 Right.

Rishi Sunak 1:22:25 I, I, I'm on the free trade side of things. I think it's important that that trade is, uh, fair-

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:32 Right

Rishi Sunak 1:22:32 ... and there are level playing fields. Which is why, you know, if I think about China's experience in the, joining the global trade system, when that wa- that decision was made in 2001, then there was a, I think at the time, reasonable belief that that bringing China into that system would, A, impact its political outlook.

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:54 Like, take China for example.

Rishi Sunak 1:22:55 But it, it, but it, what happened is China didn't play by the same set-

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:00 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:23:00 ... of trading rules that everyone else played with. Right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:02 So how do you deal with something like that? If I were China, and I say, "I will not let your technology enter my country. I will build replicas and subsidize it for my own people. I will put tariffs on all the goods that are American coming into my country," what is left in America's playbook? I'll also artificially deflate my currency to make my trade more competent than yours. What's left in America's playbook than to mimic the action of the other country?

Rishi Sunak 1:23:35 And, and that's where I think, as I said, the trade has to be fair and on a level playing field, and if you haven't got that, then this kind of, you know, free trade model that, you know, works in theory-

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:48 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:23:48 ... it, it, it's, it's harder to explain to your citizens and to say that-

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:53 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:23:53 ... this is fine in practice. And it's not just the US. The EU has done the same thing-

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:57 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:23:57 ... with, uh, tar- putting tariffs-

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:59 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:23:59 ... on Chinese electric vehicles because of the subsidization that happens domestically, uh, which is then, that's not a level playing field, right? If people are freely, fairly competing, then trade can be mutually beneficial. But if one side is unfairly advantaging its exporters with government subsidies to that extent, a- and then they have artificially low prices-

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:23 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:24:23 ... then obviously countries are gonna take action, and again, that's not just the US, that's, that's the EU. So I-

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:30 Can I make a counterargument to that?

Rishi Sunak 1:24:31 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:32 I don't remember what book I was reading this in, but at one point in time in UK's history,

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:38 Birmingham was the center of innovation.

Rishi Sunak 1:24:41 Mm-hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:42 A lot of the patents that were being created in the world happened in that one tiny place. I don't remember where I read this, but they were making a case for how Birmingham and the local economy shut down to foreign products, so the industry locally could thrive. And when they came up to scale and came up to a certain quality, they opened up all over again.

Rishi Sunak 1:25:05 Yeah. There, there's a, there's an infant industry argument-

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:10 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:25:10 ... um, that has... You know, the, the, as I said, every stage, every country will have a different approach to this.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:16 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:25:16 But, you know, in general between developed countries where there is a similarity in approach-Fr- freer trade is, is better-

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:27 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:25:28 ... in, uh, in my view. Uh, as a... The key is, is it being done in a fair way where there's a level playing field? And particular with China, you know, that has not been the case, um, which is, which is a problem, and I think will increasingly become a problem because more and more countries are having to deal with the Chinese development model, which is very export-oriented, where that, to your point, uh, they don't prioritize domestic consumption, they prioritize exports. Uh, and then lots of countries now are absorbing a huge amount of Chinese imports. Um, and that is-

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:00 Including India

Rishi Sunak 1:26:01 ... Includ- uh, the rest of the world. If you look at what's happened, you know, the US obviously has slowed that down.

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:06 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:26:07 Chinese exports, though, and the Chinese trade surplus is at a record high as a percentage of global GDP, so all those exports are going to all these other countries. So I think there'll be increasing tension with these other countries. You know, the EU has already put on tariffs on, on Chinese EVs. So I think, I think you will, you will see that. But look, this focus on, as to your point, though, about your question about, you know, what happens with this new, new president, where do things reset to? COVID also was the clarifying-

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:37 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:26:37 ... moment that many of us lived through in government that made us all focus about supply chains and the resilience of those supply chains, so that... You don't forget that, and that changes your approach. I think those people who worry about national security were nervous around Huawei telecoms equipment. That was the other big event that happened while I was in government, where we went through a process of deciding that we weren't going to rely on Chinese telecoms equipment, and that is before AI, uh, we were focused on that, and that was an expensive and disruptive decision for many countries to take. These things stay, right? Regardless who the US president is or British Prime Minister-

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:15 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:27:15 ... you know, those are structural features that now need to in- be incorporated in, into your thinking.

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:22 I'm not gonna talk to Akshata like she's Rishi's wife or Narayana Murthy's-

Akshata Murty 1:27:27 Thank you

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:27 ... daughter.

Akshata Murty 1:27:28 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:28 Uh, I think you've been dealt, if this were a poker game-

Akshata Murty 1:27:34 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:35 ... a really hard set of cards.

Akshata Murty 1:27:37 I don't play poker, so I will-

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:39 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:27:39 ... I'll follow along [laughs] as much as I can.

Rishi Sunak 1:27:41 I can, I can, I can tran- I can translate for you.

Akshata Murty 1:27:44 I, I, um... But, sure, I get, I, I, I-

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:46 Yeah

Akshata Murty 1:27:47 ... But you were saying, um, dealt a hard set of cards?

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:50 Yeah. I feel like there is a emotional tax-

Akshata Murty 1:27:56 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:57 ... to being interpreted as a extremely successful man's daughter.

Akshata Murty 1:28:05 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:06 Where if we were to define happiness as rate of change, in a way, very hard to get there. I think people often look at the children of very accomplished men-

Akshata Murty 1:28:22 Mm-hmm. Versus women, you mean?

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:24 Men and women-

Akshata Murty 1:28:25 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:25 ... as being lucky. But I think the counter is true.

Akshata Murty 1:28:31 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:31 I feel like they're some of the most unluckiest people-

Akshata Murty 1:28:34 Mm-hmm

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:35 ... because it's so much harder for them to actually feel a sense of accomplishment.

Akshata Murty 1:28:41 Sense of self, right? Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:42 And then to have your husband suddenly become the Prime Minister-

Akshata Murty 1:28:47 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:48 ... it can't have been fun for you.

Akshata Murty 1:28:51 So interesting. So a couple of things. Um, I'm hugely proud of my dad and I'm hugely proud of Rishi. But do you know, Nikhil, and this is maybe com- this comes back to that unorthodox thinking that I have. I haven't let it burden me as much, right? So let's talk about my dad. It's partly a timing thing. Um, Infosys was not this kind of what it in, uh... what it became in time, you know, hugely successful, uh, k- tech, uh, um, start- what was a startup and then became a tech business. Um, it was a company my dad started because he was looking at how could he add value to India, and he thought originally, you know all of this, right? He thought h- communism was the way, and then he had this stint in Western Europe and, uh, became a big fan of capitalism. So, so he was thinking, "Well, how can I-

Nikhil Kamath 1:29:59 He told me some crazy stories around that.

Akshata Murty 1:30:01 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:01 What happened when he was-

Akshata Murty 1:30:03 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:03 ... traveling solo-

Akshata Murty 1:30:03 His hiking

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:04 ... or hitchhiking.

Akshata Murty 1:30:04 All of that, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:05 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:30:05 That's like a whole another podcast. But, um, so for him, he, he figured out that economic, uh, development and economic success gave you a g- a, a great deal of power on the global stage and, and so he said, "Well, how can I play a small role in helping India, um, develop that, that, um, credibility and d- and, and stand taller?"

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:31 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:30:32 Um, ha- having said that, it was not an overnight success and, um, and so I saw him, in many ways, beavering away, right? At something he believed in. He had a, Infosys, I, I don't know if you remember, but it, it, the motto that he came up with was, um, "Powered by intellect, driven by values," right? So he, he was someone who had a strong, has still a strong moral compass, and he believed that, um, y- you, you power that moral compass with deep intellectual rigor, and, uh, with skills that he had, which happened to be in the tech space. Well, he was an engineer. Um, but it was not an overnight

Akshata Murty 1:31:17 success. I'm not saying it was a failure, but it took a long time. So I grew up very much being my own person, um, partly my thinking, partly circumstances.And, and by the time Infosys became, uh, more well known, I was studying in the US, and, uh, that also was a slightly unorthodox choice because, um, I, I guess I could have gone into engineering, um, in India, uh, but that wasn't my passion. And I've always valued breadth, um, and the liberal arts education offered that, and that was on the West Coast in California, so it was far away somewhat. And, uh, and always made my professional decisions. You know, I, I, I got the jobs I did on my own. I, I, I pursued opportunities that I created. Um, and so while I w- was hugely proud of my father, I was also used to standing on my own two feet, right? And then I met Rishi, um, and this has nothing to do with, uh, my parents' success, but he reminded me a lot of my dad because he too, like my father, had this huge passion for his country. Mm-hmm. And, and I remember one of the things, Rish, you said very early on, we were talking about how your parents' journey to the UK had transformed your family's life and, and then, you know, they of course work really hard to provide you with this education, and you would one day hope to grow up and i- in your own way create a, a, a platform, uh, create opportunities for lots of other young Rishis to have, um, boys and girls to have these kinds of opportunities. Um, so that reminded me a lot of my dad. Um, and so I was, uh, again, y- y- y- you know, Rishi wasn't in the plan for many reasons, but I [laughs] i- it, it... But it was inspiring to me. And so for me, my dad has always been someone, yes, he's been successful, he's done really well, et cetera, but to me, he's been an inspiring figure, and that's what I've taken away from him and said, "How can I then introduce that in my own life through my own journey?" And by the way, I'm not a technologist. I'm not an engineer. And I never felt bad about that because I... It was very clear to me from very early on, I'm gonna carve my own path. And so y- absolutely am I... And, and look, you know, Rishi and I got together, et cetera. Rishi became PM. But even then, that's what I was talking to you about lessons at 10, right? Rishi's PM, he does his thing. I would never interfere in his role, in his job. But I was very clear that I was also going to, in some way- Mm-hmm ... thank you. Mm-hmm. For... Create my own path- Mm-hmm ... and do something that I deeply cared about. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and so I guess I'm, I'm... I didn't feel the pressure in the same way. Right. Um, and so I don't, for lack of a better term, I don't have a chip on my shoulder about it. Mm. I think I feel so- Have it. Thank you. I feel quite grateful that I've had, through, for many different reasons, access to so many opportunities, and every time I'm thinking, "How can I make it my own?" And that's been something from when I was very young. So forget Rishi and your dad. Where does Akshata's validation come from? Mm. So one of my values, I have three values, um, and we've spoken about some of those things. Um, compassion, curiosity, and personal integrity. And personal integrity to me is, I define it, as being authentic to who I am. Others may not like it. Others may not understand it. But if it may... If it sits well inside of me, you know, we're talking earlier about intuition, right? I'm, I, I lean into my intuition more than, than average, certainly between the two of us. Certainly more than me. [laughs] I, I'm, I'm more on the intuitive side. Where does... I think my... Look, I'm not going to say I'm holier than thou, and I don't seek validation. Of course not. Mm-hmm. All of us do. I, I really care about having impact, right? So what does that mean? Um, you know, when we apply to Stanford, they ask you to write this essay, and, and even today, they still ask you to write the same essay. It's called, at least one of the few essays you have to write, um, it... The question is, what matters most to you and why? And, um, I remember writing about, um, rain in Mumbai, actually. Um, because around that time, I was 23, um, we were... I haven't li- I haven't sort of spent a long time in Mumbai in a lo- in, in a little while, but you know, the monsoon can be quite heavy. And for those of us who have a roof over our heads, we can observe the monsoon and, um, say, "Oh, that's pleasant." Um, but for those of us who don't, it's less pleasant. And so I wrote about equality and how do I help create an, a society where there is more equality. Um, but- Equality of wealth? Not... So equality of opportunity at least. Um- Not outcome. Not outcome. And look, I was 23, hugely idealistic, and, and I really wanted to do, do something that helped society in some way, the broader society. And I'd seen my parents through, my dad through Infosys, and then my mother through the Infosys Foundation marry that impactFrom capitalism to philanthropy, and I was, I, I... That really moved me

Rishi Sunak 1:37:42 And it's what we used to-

Akshata Murty 1:37:43 And it's what we used to discuss a lot about-

Rishi Sunak 1:37:45 ... talk about when we were at Stanford

Akshata Murty 1:37:45 ... even at Stanford.

Rishi Sunak 1:37:46 And we'd have these big... Not big, but we'd have these debates, right, about

Rishi Sunak 1:37:53 CSR and-

Akshata Murty 1:37:54 Yeah. And I, I like it-

Rishi Sunak 1:37:55 I, I, I come at it from a bit more of a traditionally capitalist economic-

Akshata Murty 1:38:01 Capitalistic eco-

Rishi Sunak 1:38:02 [laughs] Economic way

Akshata Murty 1:38:03 ... economic argument. Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:38:04 And then-

Akshata Murty 1:38:04 And, and, you know-

Rishi Sunak 1:38:04 And actually stood out for, again, especially in a business school environment, she... You always stood out 'cause you were always like the one person [laughs] in whatever study group or class-

Akshata Murty 1:38:13 Well, how does it impact society?

Rishi Sunak 1:38:14 And, you know, do-

Akshata Murty 1:38:14 How does it impact the most vulnerable people?

Rishi Sunak 1:38:17 Yeah. Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:38:17 How does it, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:18 I think it's all validation. If one person gets validation through a capitalistic-

Akshata Murty 1:38:24 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:24 ... win-

Akshata Murty 1:38:24 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:25 ... another gets it through a moralistic win or an altruistic win.

Akshata Murty 1:38:29 Mm. Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:29 It's all validation.

Akshata Murty 1:38:30 No, fair enough. You're abs- yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:31 I feel like we're all seeking the same height.

Akshata Murty 1:38:33 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:33 The pathway is different.

Rishi Sunak 1:38:34 Different. Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:38:35 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:38:36 Yeah. No, I think that's-

Akshata Murty 1:38:36 Yeah. No, fair enough

Rishi Sunak 1:38:37 ... that's fair.

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:38 The, this pathway comes further down the journey than that pathway, 'cause I think you have to win at-

Akshata Murty 1:38:43 True

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:43 ... capitalism before you can win your altruism.

Akshata Murty 1:38:44 True. True. And look-

Rishi Sunak 1:38:45 And that, that was-

Akshata Murty 1:38:46 And, and, and m- m- many people will say, Nikhil-

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:49 Mm

Akshata Murty 1:38:49 ... "Oh, all well and good that you want to be altruistic, you don't have to pay the bills." Or, "You don't have to worry about paying the bills," right? I get that, but then I also feel a huge sense of responsibility as a result.

Rishi Sunak 1:38:58 And, and to your point, you need to do the first bit-

Nikhil Kamath 1:39:01 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:39:01 ... that you generate-

Akshata Murty 1:39:02 To do the second

Rishi Sunak 1:39:02 ... like, which is what your dad did, right? It was, uh, that you, you have im- that impact only because you've been able to create the wealth and-

Akshata Murty 1:39:10 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:39:10 ... create the platform with the company.

Akshata Murty 1:39:11 I get that. So, so ei- either I can bemoan that and say, "Oh, no, I'm either person X's daughter or person Y's wife," et cetera, or I can say, "I'm hugely lucky to have what I have. What do I do with it?"

Nikhil Kamath 1:39:30 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:39:30 So in, in a sense-

Rishi Sunak 1:39:31 Thank you

Akshata Murty 1:39:31 ... that blank canvas I've had much earlier in my life.

Rishi Sunak 1:39:34 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:39:35 And let me tell you, some of the pictures I've drawn [laughs] have not been pretty, right?

Rishi Sunak 1:39:40 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:39:40 But I've had the blank canvas, and I've... And I, I think that's, that's... It's also a little bit my personality. Like, I don't... It's that poem that you gave me, you know, when we first met, or the f- one of the first gifts you gave me, that poem-

Nikhil Kamath 1:39:57 Are you that guy who gives poems?

Akshata Murty 1:39:59 No, he is not.

Rishi Sunak 1:40:00 I think I did.

Akshata Murty 1:40:00 He's given one.

Rishi Sunak 1:40:01 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:40:02 One. So before he said, "Oh, yeah, I am that guy"-

Rishi Sunak 1:40:05 I am

Akshata Murty 1:40:05 ... I was gonna be like, "Uh, no." [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 1:40:07 It was early on. It was, uh... [laughs] It's, it's only just been once.

Akshata Murty 1:40:12 Uh, it, it has only just been once.

Rishi Sunak 1:40:14 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:40:14 But anyway... But, but I knew of it anyway. That's why you gave it to me, not like you introduced me to it. Um, by Rudyard Kipling called If.

Rishi Sunak 1:40:22 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:40:22 And, um, my mother reminds me all the time that, um, uh, these words are painted or carved in, in the changing rooms in, in Center Court, in Wimbledon, before you go out to play the tennis match. Uh, where if y- y- I'm, I'm not going to quote it exactly at all, but, you know, if you look, look at winning and losing as two sides of the same coin-

Rishi Sunak 1:40:42 Mm-hmm

Akshata Murty 1:40:42 ... then you, you're truly a man.

Rishi Sunak 1:40:46 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:40:46 Right?

Rishi Sunak 1:40:46 If you can... If you treat-

Akshata Murty 1:40:47 Um, if you treat-

Rishi Sunak 1:40:48 ... triumph and disaster-

Akshata Murty 1:40:50 ... triumph and disaster as two imposters just the same.

Rishi Sunak 1:40:51 It's the same

Akshata Murty 1:40:52 Right? Uh, so, so, um, I, I think that's, that's, uh-

Rishi Sunak 1:41:00 You are-

Akshata Murty 1:41:00 ... what kind of stuck with me

Rishi Sunak 1:41:01 ... that is, that is how you are built that way.

Akshata Murty 1:41:02 That is my approach to life, Nikhil.

Rishi Sunak 1:41:04 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:41:04 So, you know, I started a fashion business. Um, well, I f- we finished business school, and then I was working in brand consulting. Uh, during business school I'd written a, a-

Rishi Sunak 1:41:13 But before you get-

Akshata Murty 1:41:14 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:41:14 ... but that, that point on the tri- that is very who you are.

Akshata Murty 1:41:18 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:41:18 You are much more, which I've learnt from, right?

Akshata Murty 1:41:22 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:41:22 Like, when, you know, the good things happen, don't get carried away. [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:41:26 Not that you're not-

Rishi Sunak 1:41:27 Bad things happen

Akshata Murty 1:41:28 ... grateful, appreciative, all of that. Like when Rishi became PM.

Rishi Sunak 1:41:31 Yeah. But you are-

Akshata Murty 1:41:32 It was a huge moment, but it didn't... That's why I think we both kind of-

Rishi Sunak 1:41:34 Yeah

Akshata Murty 1:41:34 ... struggled to answer that question because it wasn't like... Not because we don't honor it and are hugely proud of that moment. Great triumph.

Rishi Sunak 1:41:45 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:41:46 But equally, anyone who's had great triumphs will tell you, you, you also see great disasters, right?

Rishi Sunak 1:41:52 And then I-

Nikhil Kamath 1:41:52 I think it's-

Rishi Sunak 1:41:53 Oh

Nikhil Kamath 1:41:53 ... it's, it's very evolved that you accept the cards that you're dealt.

Akshata Murty 1:42:00 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:01 Because many others in your position really struggle with it. I'll tell you another thing that is bad today.

Akshata Murty 1:42:08 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:08 I don't know if it's good or bad, but for somebody who gets their high from the moralistic, altruistic wins in life-

Akshata Murty 1:42:18 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:18 ... society or pop culture has suddenly become conditioned in a manner where anybody who goes out and says they're doing something to do good-

Akshata Murty 1:42:29 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:29 ... the general emotion is distrust.

Akshata Murty 1:42:33 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:42:33 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:34 So you're not-

Akshata Murty 1:42:35 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:35 ... you're not trying to-

Rishi Sunak 1:42:37 You're almost swimming against the tide, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:39 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:42:39 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:42:39 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:39 The, the timing is-

Akshata Murty 1:42:40 Yeah. But, but-

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:41 ... difficult

Rishi Sunak 1:42:42 Yeah

Akshata Murty 1:42:42 ... but, but there again, Nikhil, that's who I am.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:46 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:42:47 Right? And that doesn't mean I've w- I have won as such at, at, at, at life, right? I've had my ups, I've had my downs. Um, but I know I will always have stayed true to who I am and what my beliefs are.

Rishi Sunak 1:43:07 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:43:09 And-

Rishi Sunak 1:43:09 And you have a very clear sense of that.

Akshata Murty 1:43:13 Yeah. A clear-

Rishi Sunak 1:43:13 Yeah, yeah

Akshata Murty 1:43:13 ... I have a clear sense of who I am.

Rishi Sunak 1:43:14 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You have much, your-

Akshata Murty 1:43:16 I'm not gonna impose that on you or-

Rishi Sunak 1:43:17 Yeah

Akshata Murty 1:43:17 ... or, I mean, I impose that a bit on you, but, but- [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 1:43:21 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:43:21 ... but we-

Rishi Sunak 1:43:23 In a ni- in a nice way. [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:43:24 But, but i- i- it, it's so liberating.

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:27 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:43:28 Um, and, you know, another way to look at it is, um, during the, during the pandemic, uh, Rishi became, uh, chancellor, um, which all happened quite suddenly. So, so I was with the kids a lot and, you know, y- you're just trying to, like, figure out how to live this new life, and I picked up Herman Hesse's book, uh, called Siddhartha again.And you, you read about what, what, uh, Lord Buddha said, and it's the middle path. It's the balance.

Rishi Sunak 1:43:57 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:43:59 That doesn't mean you shun-

Rishi Sunak 1:44:01 Desire?

Akshata Murty 1:44:02 ... desire,

Akshata Murty 1:44:04 but equally you don't shun, um, uh, austerity.

Rishi Sunak 1:44:10 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:44:10 Right? You, you embrace both-

Rishi Sunak 1:44:12 Mm-hmm

Akshata Murty 1:44:12 ... in a way because what comes out of that, that, um, those two extremes comes the middle path. And, uh, Anushka was saying this the other day. She, uh, she's our youngest daughter, she's 13. She said the R- the Romans, I hope, because I don't know this philosophy as well as she does. She, she was talking about the stoics versus the epicureans.

Rishi Sunak 1:44:33 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:44:34 The epicureans, i- are all about-

Rishi Sunak 1:44:37 More Greek than Romans, I think.

Akshata Murty 1:44:38 More Greek, actually.

Rishi Sunak 1:44:39 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:44:39 Exactly. The, the epicureans embraced desire-

Rishi Sunak 1:44:43 Mm-hmm

Akshata Murty 1:44:44 ... and, and amusement.

Rishi Sunak 1:44:46 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:44:46 Um, and the stoics somewhat shun that. But actually the, the happy place is somewhere in the middle, and it's not, you're not on the moral high ground if you think you are a stoic versus an epicurean, and that's the balance, right? So I have always chased, for lack of a better word, that balance.

Rishi Sunak 1:45:15 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:45:15 And so even in the highs of highs of my parents' success, and they've had their highs and their lows like any-

Rishi Sunak 1:45:22 Mm-hmm

Akshata Murty 1:45:23 ... human being. Even in the highs and hi- and lows of our own life together, I've, I've tried, I don't always succeed, at finding that balance.

Rishi Sunak 1:45:35 Do you think you need to retain that balance throughout? Or is it okay to allow yourself to drift between both the sides?

Akshata Murty 1:45:43 Oh, I, I definitely drift between both.

Rishi Sunak 1:45:46 Oh.

Akshata Murty 1:45:46 And in fact, I remember one of the first things my mother said to me, "Oh, what do you like about Rishi?" And I said, "He, he just allows me to have more fun."

Rishi Sunak 1:45:56 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:45:58 And we were talking earlier how our parents are d- of dif- you know, my family's more reserved-

Rishi Sunak 1:46:03 Mm-hmm

Akshata Murty 1:46:03 ... um, uh, intellectual, um, uh, quieter. I'm not saying that's bad and one is good, uh, and, but I met Rishi, who was lots of energy and lots of excitement about so many different things and, and so I thought that was amazing.

Rishi Sunak 1:46:23 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:46:23 You know, a, a different way of looking at life. Um, so I've always... I, I haven't, uh, the balance comes from embracing both, I think.

Rishi Sunak 1:46:32 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:46:32 Because then you say, "Oh, this doesn't quite feel right all the time," or, "This doesn't f- quite feel right." And then you might say, "Well, how do you know? How do you know?" I think there's a feeling inside, whether you want to call that intuition, it's gut, it's, it's a kind of deep, uh, uh, feeling you get, and I've had that fr- from a young, as a young person, so I just-

Rishi Sunak 1:46:53 I have a theory for this.

Akshata Murty 1:46:54 Yeah?

Rishi Sunak 1:46:55 I feel like us South Indians-

Akshata Murty 1:46:57 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:46:57 ... never saw war as frequently as the North Indians did.

Akshata Murty 1:47:02 Yep, absolutely.

Rishi Sunak 1:47:02 We didn't see conflict.

Akshata Murty 1:47:04 I, I have the exact same theory.

Rishi Sunak 1:47:06 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:47:06 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:47:06 And people who don't know how long they're gonna live for-

Akshata Murty 1:47:08 Yeah, embrace the moment

Rishi Sunak 1:47:10 ... live in the moment.

Akshata Murty 1:47:10 Embrace the moment, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:47:11 I think we have to learn from them-

Akshata Murty 1:47:12 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:47:12 ... to embrace the moment a bit more.

Akshata Murty 1:47:14 Completely. Completely. In fact, I would say, uh, uh, I remember, uh, even in our wedding, my mother and I, we have these kinds of discussions.

Rishi Sunak 1:47:23 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:47:23 And she lo- we both love history, and that's exactly what her and I said is, in general, North Indian weddings tend to be, uh, bolder and, um, quite fun, and South Indian weddings seem more tame-

Rishi Sunak 1:47:39 Yeah

Akshata Murty 1:47:39 ... in, in comparison. And you're absolutely right that y- you have to make the most of what you have when you have it.

Rishi Sunak 1:47:48 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:47:48 So again, no moral kind of judgment about it. Um, but d- have that, but know that that life is not just about that.

Rishi Sunak 1:47:58 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:47:58 Right?

Rishi Sunak 1:47:59 Yeah. So maybe middle ground is the-

Akshata Murty 1:48:01 Mm, the middle path, yeah

Rishi Sunak 1:48:03 ... almost always the answer-

Akshata Murty 1:48:05 Almost always

Rishi Sunak 1:48:05 ... for so many things.

Akshata Murty 1:48:06 Yep. Absolutely.

Rishi Sunak 1:48:08 Yeah. You have to, you have to develop that ability not to get carried away by success, but equally not to be so deflated by failure. You know, you know, that said, when thinking about failure, there's good and bad ways to deal with it. Y- what... You, you've got to turn it into something positive.

Akshata Murty 1:48:35 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:48:35 But that requires a mindset where if something bad happens, y- your sto- the story you tell yourself about it can't be one which is victim-centered.

Akshata Murty 1:48:47 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:48:48 Where, like, this bad thing happened because I was a victim of this or victim of that, and now all these bad things happen to me. Y- you have to be able to more objectively look at it and just self-reflect and say, "What did I not quite get right? What did I misjudge?" Uh, and turn it then... And then you can turn it into something positive where you say, "Okay, now how do I improve my process for the future?" And, and you've always said this to me, you said, "You be kinder to yourself," 'cause I'd be beating myself up, and you always say, "Be kinder to yourself."

Akshata Murty 1:49:14 I always say to Rishi, I say this to the girls, 'cause we have two teenage girls, they're 13 and 14, and I say, "If... The person you have to be kindest to first is yourself."

Rishi Sunak 1:49:25 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:49:25 'Cause then you understand deep inside what that actually means-

Rishi Sunak 1:49:29 Mm-hmm

Akshata Murty 1:49:29 ... before you can practice it in the real world.

Rishi Sunak 1:49:32 And-

Akshata Murty 1:49:32 And I know we talk about-

Rishi Sunak 1:49:33 Yeah, yeah

Akshata Murty 1:49:33 ... that a lot.

Rishi Sunak 1:49:34 And, and you remember, if you're in these jobs, if you're leading, the, most of the decisions that you make, almost by definition, are 50/50 decisions. And if they were not, like, someone else would have made it, [laughs] right? And, and so the only decisions that come to you are the exceptionally hard 50/50 ones, and you... In terms of being kind to yourself, you have to recognize you're not gonna get all of them right.

Akshata Murty 1:49:59 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:49:59 Right? Like, y- y- you know, and you are in that position-And someone

Rishi Sunak 1:50:04 else said this to me. A very successful technology executive said this to me in an early meeting that he had with me in, actually in Downing Street, and he said that, "You're in this position because your ability to make those decisions is on, on average better than most other people."

Akshata Murty 1:50:17 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:50:17 Right? "Your judgment is on average better, or you wouldn't be sitting here, I wouldn't be talking to you. So trust that and have some confidence in it, and, and then, you know, when things don't go right, as long as you're honestly self-reflective about it, recognize good and bad outcomes of the same process, reflect and then think what you can learn from it, take away for the next time." You know, that, you know, that is a very... I mean, it's... I learned how to do that, not perfectly, but because that's helped me.

Akshata Murty 1:50:42 Of course you're still learning.

Rishi Sunak 1:50:43 And you're still learning. But it's, that is, it's a very necessary part of being a good leader.

Akshata Murty 1:50:47 No ma-

Rishi Sunak 1:50:47 It's how you-

Akshata Murty 1:50:48 No matter what you do, by the way.

Rishi Sunak 1:50:48 No matter what you do.

Akshata Murty 1:50:49 Right.

Rishi Sunak 1:50:49 It's not just political leadership. I just... You know, understanding these failures, how to cope with them, how to then turn them into something positive-

Akshata Murty 1:50:55 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:50:55 ... so that you grow and it doesn't consume you. 'Cause you can get into a negative spiral after it where it's very damaging. Um-

Akshata Murty 1:51:01 I've, um, become, um, really fascinated by this term called metacognition, right?

Rishi Sunak 1:51:07 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:51:07 Which is thinking about the thinking.

Rishi Sunak 1:51:09 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:51:10 So look at an outcome and you say, "Okay, outcome X happened. Why did it happen? Why did I behave the way I did? How... Did I deploy my strengths and weaknesses? Why are those my strengths versus these?" Um, and then regulating your thinking, meta regulation, right?

Rishi Sunak 1:51:28 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:51:28 I thought, I think that is, um, uh, uh, metacognitive regulation, meta... I, I just think that's just a, a fascinating way for where humans are heading.

Nikhil Kamath 1:51:41 I find most words which have meta in the beginning are very interesting.

Akshata Murty 1:51:45 Yes. There you go.

Rishi Sunak 1:51:46 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:51:46 Exactly. Let's just add metacognition.

Rishi Sunak 1:51:49 It sound- it sounds good, yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:51:51 Metacognitive regulation.

Nikhil Kamath 1:51:52 Yeah. I must say, you both make a really good case for marriage.

Akshata Murty 1:51:58 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 1:51:58 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:51:59 That's good to hear-

Rishi Sunak 1:52:00 That's good to hear

Akshata Murty 1:52:00 ... on some days when it doesn't feel like it. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 1:52:00 I know. I know. We're gonna, we're gonna clip that and play it-

Akshata Murty 1:52:04 Yeah, exactly. That's like our-

Rishi Sunak 1:52:05 ... as like a, as a ringtone. [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:52:06 Yeah, exactly. That's ex- It's so weird you said that, 'cause that's exactly what I was gonna... I was gonna say, "That's gonna be our ringtone."

Rishi Sunak 1:52:12 It, uh, it could-

Akshata Murty 1:52:13 We're very yin and yang.

Rishi Sunak 1:52:15 But it comes with more friction-

Nikhil Kamath 1:52:18 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:52:18 ... in a way because... But, but what we're talking about-

Akshata Murty 1:52:21 It's a good thing

Rishi Sunak 1:52:21 ... right at the beginning, 'cause we approach things differently-

Akshata Murty 1:52:24 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:52:24 ... and we are quite different, but there's a-

Akshata Murty 1:52:27 I'm gonna give, uh, n-

Rishi Sunak 1:52:28 You know, there's a common set of values and, a- and, and so the, the product of it, I think is, is better as a result of the combination of us on most things.

Akshata Murty 1:52:35 I'll give you a, a, a s-

Rishi Sunak 1:52:36 We get to a better answer, but it is a-

Akshata Murty 1:52:37 I'll give you a silly example.

Rishi Sunak 1:52:38 There's a-

Akshata Murty 1:52:38 I feel like I have to say this before your deep thought.

Rishi Sunak 1:52:41 Okay.

Akshata Murty 1:52:41 So Rishi-

Rishi Sunak 1:52:42 I've finished, finished the deep thought. I'm done. You, you-

Akshata Murty 1:52:43 Rishi, Rishi, Rishi turns...

Rishi Sunak 1:52:44 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:52:45 W- we turned 30 around the same time. We were in LA at the time, and this new ice cream shop opened, and I said to Rish, "Oh, you know, they have, like, 30 flavors. They- it's all natural, et cetera." And he's like, "Oh, no. I just like vanilla." So we go there, and they do have 30 flavors, right?

Rishi Sunak 1:53:02 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:53:02 Like Szechuan peppercorn ice cream.

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:05 Wow, I'd love that.

Akshata Murty 1:53:05 Yeah. Passion fruit, I don't know, black pepper, all sorts of things, and I mean, Rishi picks vanilla. And I'm like, "What do you mean?" And he's like, "Well, what would you pick?" And on purpose, I pick the most bizarre flavor there is, because that's kinda my approach to life. Like, uh, give me a s- give me a situation and I will look at it with a totally risk-taking mindset.

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:37 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:53:37 Whereas Rishi wouldn't... That wouldn't be a first step.

Rishi Sunak 1:53:41 No.

Akshata Murty 1:53:41 You wouldn't say, "What is the most risky thing?"

Rishi Sunak 1:53:43 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:53:43 Should... I mean, I'm exaggerating, but, but, but you would say-

Rishi Sunak 1:53:46 The, the, the-

Akshata Murty 1:53:46 ... well, what's the sensible thing?

Rishi Sunak 1:53:47 The, the, the rest of that story-

Akshata Murty 1:53:49 Right

Rishi Sunak 1:53:49 ... that all sounds great. The rest of that story [laughs] is you-

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:52 You hated your flavor?

Rishi Sunak 1:53:53 You didn't, she didn't like the thing.

Akshata Murty 1:53:54 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 1:53:55 Right? So we've left, and then she doesn't like it.

Akshata Murty 1:53:57 Okay, so I'll buy it for next time.

Rishi Sunak 1:53:57 And then we've gone, and then she... Then I... No, no.

Nikhil Kamath 1:54:00 She ate yours?

Rishi Sunak 1:54:01 No. Then she ate mine.

Akshata Murty 1:54:02 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 1:54:02 Right? And then I'm stuck, not... 'Cause I don't like, I'm forced to eat this thing that I don't like. You, you know? And then, so yeah, [laughs] it's all very well.

Akshata Murty 1:54:10 That's the yin and yang.

Rishi Sunak 1:54:11 Yeah, the yin and yang. Right.

Nikhil Kamath 1:54:12 When I think of marriage-

Akshata Murty 1:54:13 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 1:54:14 ... I feel like it has worked so well.

Akshata Murty 1:54:18 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:54:19 In a certain way, it's a great way to insure against loneliness-

Akshata Murty 1:54:26 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 1:54:26 ... and always have attention and validation, the concept of family.

Akshata Murty 1:54:30 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:54:30 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:54:31 Because you don't get the peaks and the troughs-

Akshata Murty 1:54:34 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 1:54:34 ... you, but you get a little bit every day.

Akshata Murty 1:54:35 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 1:54:37 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:54:37 I'm trying to think. Um-

Rishi Sunak 1:54:40 I mean, I, I think, I, I, I mean, I, I, without question, could not function [laughs] if we weren't married, right? In terms of profe- professionally function-

Akshata Murty 1:54:52 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 1:54:52 ... not just personally fu-

Akshata Murty 1:54:53 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:54:53 I mean, I, 'cause I, I can't imagine doing all the things that I've had to do on my own. So and to your point, loneliness, not just in a social companionship perspective, which I actually... I mean, that's, that's nice, but I, it's much deeper than that. It's a- like having this, you know, people talk about life pa- whatever the word you wanna use, uh, you-

Akshata Murty 1:55:15 It's called soulmate, Rishi

Rishi Sunak 1:55:17 ... soulmate. No, but it's this partnership, but I'm not even trying to get to that bit-

Akshata Murty 1:55:20 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 1:55:20 ... of the de- I think actually, uh, almost more practical, I think that there is that, and that is obviously wonderful.

Nikhil Kamath 1:55:26 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 1:55:27 But the slightly more practical aspect of it-

Nikhil Kamath 1:55:30 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:55:30 ... is, is someone who you can share these very difficult things with and who can support you when you need it, and pi- you know-

Akshata Murty 1:55:40 Or not just support. I think it's, it brings out the best in you.

Rishi Sunak 1:55:43 Yeah, I, you know-

Akshata Murty 1:55:44 Right?

Rishi Sunak 1:55:44 ... and sees you in a way that not everyone sees.

Akshata Murty 1:55:45 And where the sum, uh, is greater than, uh, the parts, right?

Rishi Sunak 1:55:52 So certainly for, I, look, and that is particularly acute, I think for everybody. But, you know, if you're in one of these very high-pressure situations-

Akshata Murty 1:56:03 Mm

Rishi Sunak 1:56:03 ... you know, you, you can't do that on your own. Well, I certainly could not have done it on, on my own.

Akshata Murty 1:56:08 Who's not your therapist

Rishi Sunak 1:56:10 Yeah, who's ... Uh, you know, maybe, maybe these days you could say your therapist, but [laughs] that is not the same. For me, it's a bit like that. [laughs] Yeah. Probably a bit tricky if you're Prime Minister. [laughs] Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:56:18 But, but, but I'll tell you the counter to that, right? But so we have together faced ups and downs, um, while staying true to who we are, et cetera. But like some- one of the criticisms I faced is, well, don't... W- what's your identity, right?

Rishi Sunak 1:56:42 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 1:56:42 Because as you rightly said, you know, you're your father's daughter, you're your husband's wife. And so, um, it's, it's got me thinking, you know, what's identity about? H- how do you define yourself? And is it, is it based on where you live, what language you speak, what you eat?

Rishi Sunak 1:57:10 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:57:13 But we're saying we are different, right? Um, and you know, I've, lately I've been getting a lot of pushback on my accent, right?

Rishi Sunak 1:57:23 Mm.

Akshata Murty 1:57:23 You grew up in Bangalore. Do you understand any of that?

Rishi Sunak 1:57:31 I won't.

Akshata Murty 1:57:32 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 1:57:33 Now you're

Akshata Murty 1:57:34 Tell them.

Rishi Sunak 1:57:39 Just like being at home.

Akshata Murty 1:57:43 [laughs] Um, anyway, um, I'll come back to that accent thing in a second, actually.

Rishi Sunak 1:57:50 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 1:57:50 Um, but, but I've, I've-

Rishi Sunak 1:57:52 Does Nikhil speak more like your mum or dad?

Akshata Murty 1:57:55 I would assume more like my dad.

Rishi Sunak 1:57:56 Okay.

Akshata Murty 1:57:57 My sort of Canada, right?

Rishi Sunak 1:57:58 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:57:58 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 1:57:58 Who's my ... Yeah.

Akshata Murty 1:57:59 Yeah. Um, so what's... Where do you get your identity from? So, uh, so for me, my identity comes from genuinely having impact, and I'll unpack that. So it's how can I give to the communities in which I live? How can I stay true to my values? How can I honor my heritage? And so whatever we do professionally, um, even how we raise our children, I'm constantly thinking. I'm probably less worried than most about some of the more, I'm not gonna use the word superficial, some of the more tangible concepts of identity, like what food we eat or what language we speak or, um-

Rishi Sunak 1:59:01 How you dress

Akshata Murty 1:59:01 ... or how you dress-

Rishi Sunak 1:59:02 How you dress

Akshata Murty 1:59:03 ... how I sound. Um, but, but w- staying true to your values, staying true to, to what matters most to you, um, you know, that's how I've defined... Oh, thank you. That's how I've defined my identity versus, versus it being trying to match someone else's or trying to meet societal expectations of what identity should be, right? And so like with my accent, for example... Actually, let's take a step back. You k- you know, I remember Rishi and I came to India for the G20, and it was incredibly emotional for me, Nikhil, because I was coming to, to the place where I was raised. I was coming to the place that defined my heritage, of which I'm very proud of. I was coming to a, a place that was my former home, but in a way representing a different home, right? So how, how do you handle that? And that's, that really got me thinking about, well, in a scenario like this, who are you? Are you British or are you Indian? Are you neither? Are you both? And it reminds me of what, uh, I think PM Modi said, I think in 2015, uh, uh, maybe when he was in the UK for that Wembley-

Rishi Sunak 2:00:43 Oh, when he did the big Wembley

Akshata Murty 2:00:44 ... Wembley, um-

Rishi Sunak 2:00:45 Wembley thing. Yeah

Akshata Murty 2:00:45 ... uh, uh, event. And he said, "You know, the Indians who are living in the UK are all part of the living bridge, the Indian diaspora. Um, and, and they connect Britain to India and vice versa." And so I'm but one of the people living on this bridge, you know, the bridge that, you know, when you think of a bridge, it connects two places. It doesn't belong just to one place or the other. So for me, my, when I think deeply about who I am in, in, in the context of, of current day, I am part of that living bridge. I feel incredibly at home in India. I am incredibly emotional about my, um... I use the word emotional because I'm, it, it moves me. My, my heritage. I'm incredibly proud of my heritage, my, um, how I was raised. Um, but I have also had these incredibly meaningful experiences in the UK. That's where we're raising our family, and I am deeply committed to that community as well. So the things that I'm engaging in now, and I'm doing them in areas that mean things to me, so in arts, culture, history, entrepreneurship, um, creativity, uh, these are areas that speak to me and I'm constantly looking at how can I honor-

2:02:16 Both these places, and play a small role in bringing them together. So, so long-winded way is, um, I'm very much a Bangalore girl with a British accent. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 2:02:29 But not as big an RCB fan as me.

Akshata Murty 2:02:31 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 2:02:31 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 2:02:31 There we go.

Akshata Murty 2:02:32 True.

Nikhil Kamath 2:02:32 Jayanagar girl.

Akshata Murty 2:02:33 Yeah. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 2:02:34 Jayanagar girl.

Akshata Murty 2:02:34 Jayanagar girl, yes, yes, yes.

Nikhil Kamath 2:02:36 We probably went to many of the same restaurants 'cause we're-

Akshata Murty 2:02:39 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:02:40 ... similar age.

Akshata Murty 2:02:40 Yeah. Well, I still think you're quite a bit younger, but, you know.

Nikhil Kamath 2:02:44 No, 39, 45.

Akshata Murty 2:02:45 I know, I know, but it's like when you hit 40.

Nikhil Kamath 2:02:47 Same decade.

Akshata Murty 2:02:47 Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:02:48 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 2:02:49 80.

Rishi Sunak 2:02:49 MTR.

Nikhil Kamath 2:02:51 MTR is not in Jayanagar. MTR is more near-

Rishi Sunak 2:02:53 Oh, is it? No

Nikhil Kamath 2:02:54 ... Basavanagudi, I think.

Akshata Murty 2:02:55 Yeah. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 2:02:55 Okay, fine.

Nikhil Kamath 2:02:56 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:02:56 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 2:02:56 Jayanagar used to have-

Akshata Murty 2:02:58 Wh- which ones are you thinking about in Jayanagar?

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:02 I would say-

Akshata Murty 2:03:02 There was a place called

Akshata Murty 2:03:03 Dosa Camp.

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:04 Yes.

Akshata Murty 2:03:04 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:04 In fourth block.

Akshata Murty 2:03:05 Yes. I remember-

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:06 Where everybody went

Akshata Murty 2:03:06 ... the day it opened. Uh-huh.

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:07 They put everything in the dosa, from mushrooms-

Akshata Murty 2:03:10 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:10 ... to baby corn-

Akshata Murty 2:03:11 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:11 ... to-

Akshata Murty 2:03:11 Cheese

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:11 ... whatever you can think of.

Akshata Murty 2:03:12 Yeah, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:03:13 Okay.

Akshata Murty 2:03:13 Paneer.

Rishi Sunak 2:03:13 That, uh, ice cream place was presumably not there when you were growing up.

Akshata Murty 2:03:16 Corner House.

Rishi Sunak 2:03:17 Corner House.

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:17 Corner House.

Akshata Murty 2:03:17 Yes.

Rishi Sunak 2:03:17 Oh, it was there?

Akshata Murty 2:03:18 Yes.

Rishi Sunak 2:03:18 Oh, great. Yeah, we go there.

Akshata Murty 2:03:19 Yes.

Rishi Sunak 2:03:20 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:20 I used to eat-

Rishi Sunak 2:03:21 Our kids love Corner House

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:21 ... they had this thing called Death by Chocolate.

Akshata Murty 2:03:24 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They still have it. My kids had it two days ago.

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:26 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 2:03:26 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:28 Adigas was there back then?

Akshata Murty 2:03:29 Adigas was the... I can't remember where exactly it was.

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:32 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:03:34 But, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:03:34 I think there was some, I think the first time I came, your dad thought I should have this, uh, Indo-Chinese food, whatever that-

Akshata Murty 2:03:40 Yeah, I mean, that's all, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:03:41 Yeah. Well, I've forgotten-

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:42 You guys live near that park, right? Near the ground.

Akshata Murty 2:03:45 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:03:46 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:46 Not park, ground.

Akshata Murty 2:03:46 Yeah, ground.

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:47 I used to go there to play cricket.

Akshata Murty 2:03:49 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:03:49 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:03:50 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 2:03:51 I, I have played cricket there.

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:53 Yeah?

Rishi Sunak 2:03:53 On my first trip, n- less now. [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:56 [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 2:03:56 When I used to come, when I, uh, uh, when I would-

Nikhil Kamath 2:03:58 Can you get by in India without security and stuff like that?

Rishi Sunak 2:04:01 It, do you know, I... It is the most ex- incredible thing when I'm here-

Nikhil Kamath 2:04:06 Mm

Rishi Sunak 2:04:06 ... because, uh, people are so kind, they are so welcoming, they're so supportive, uh, and it is humbling every time. Um, so I, I do as best job I can as trying to talk to as many people as possible and, and say thank you to them and chat with them. Um, so it's a, it's a wonderful and overwhelming experience every time I come here.

Nikhil Kamath 2:04:29 Well, you make us look very good. I hope, like-

Rishi Sunak 2:04:31 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 2:04:31 ... you keep winning and doing better-

Rishi Sunak 2:04:33 No, it's, it-

Nikhil Kamath 2:04:33 ... at different things

Rishi Sunak 2:04:34 ... it's, i- it is good. No, no, we, um, we love... Uh, it's been a great, well, a good week at the summit. We have, I probably, now, now that I'm a bit freer, it's nice 'cause we can be here more often.

Nikhil Kamath 2:04:45 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:04:45 And we, I've been in India almost every few months for the past year or bit. You know, it's been really lovely, and we've been home, we've taken the kids on different places. They saw Taj Mahal last year for the first time.

Akshata Murty 2:04:57 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:04:58 I've done lots of work things here. We... And then we were, and then the cricket, you know-

Akshata Murty 2:05:02 Mm

Rishi Sunak 2:05:02 ... I've, I've seen, I've been in Bombay for cricket with your dad. We went to the IPL final. So it's been great. We did Jaipur Literary Festival last year.

Akshata Murty 2:05:11 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:05:11 So it's now we're getting a chance to enjoy a bit more of all these things.

Nikhil Kamath 2:05:15 I'm gonna ask you another selfish question. I think a big motive I have, I'm using myself as the placeholder, but I think a lot more young people-

Rishi Sunak 2:05:25 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:05:25 ... need to participate in politics.

Rishi Sunak 2:05:27 Yes.

Akshata Murty 2:05:27 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 2:05:27 I think you're, like, testament to that.

Rishi Sunak 2:05:29 Mm-hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 2:05:29 I think it's a great thing in society and more needs to happen. When you become a politician and you see these really big problems, uh, I'll, I'll be a little specific to your, f- to the, to the, to England and, you know-

Rishi Sunak 2:05:45 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:05:45 ... that use case, but say fixing the NHS, reducing debt, reducing inflation. For somebody sitting on the outside, a young guy who wants to be in politics-

Rishi Sunak 2:05:57 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:05:58 ... when you go in and try to fix these problems, how hard is it?

Rishi Sunak 2:06:02 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:06:03 Is it possib- is it a, is it that one person can actually change stuff?

Rishi Sunak 2:06:08 Yeah. I've, I've lots of thoughts. So I think if you, if you want to do it, you need to have resilience, you need to have patience, and you need to be driven by service rather than ambition. You need resilience because it is unforgiving, right? In, in this day and age, with social media, like, you need to have thick skin. We've talked all about how, you know, you cope with failure, but just coping with the day-to-day criticism, y- y- you have to be able to, to deal with that. Um, and, and partly the best way to, to deal with it, by the way, is, is not to engage with a lot of it, 'cause we're all human, right? You can have the thickest skin in the world, we're all human. Um, but you do need that resilience. You need patience 'cause, I'll come to this in a second, things take longer than you would think, uh, certainly longer than the private sector. Um, and, and look, all politicians, if we're being honest, are motivated by both ambition and duty or public service. I think every politician, being honest, there's, they're both, right?

Nikhil Kamath 2:07:11 Personal ambition.

Rishi Sunak 2:07:13 I, I think, yeah, yes, personal ambition, right? I think, I think if they're being honest, I certainly am, most politicians are m- uh, they're motivated by both. You just need to know where you sit on that scale, and if you are overly weighted towards personal ambition, I, I think you will not be successful. People will see through it, and it won't, you won't-

Akshata Murty 2:07:35 Have that impact

Rishi Sunak 2:07:35 ... y- you won't be able to do the things that are necessary to succeed. Um, so I think those are the three preconditions for, for getting, uh, involved. Then I'll, and I'll ask you, answer your other question about, you know, can young people do it, or what, how do they think about change. I, you know, there's, there's some things that I think some, not all, but some young people misunderstand about how to bring about change, and I think one is there's this kind of almost cinematic notion that change happens in a moment.

Nikhil Kamath 2:08:09 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:08:09 It's a speech.

Nikhil Kamath 2:08:10 You have to remember we have grown up on m- movies which one guy becomes the prime minister for a day and fixes the country.

Rishi Sunak 2:08:16 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:08:17 That's it.

Rishi Sunak 2:08:17 And, and, and, and-

Akshata Murty 2:08:18 Great story. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 2:08:20 And ch-

Nikhil Kamath 2:08:21 Nikhil-

Akshata Murty 2:08:21 Yeah. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 2:08:22 And, and change, and, and change is less about a moment and a m-

Nikhil Kamath 2:08:24 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:08:24 ... it's more about a movement, right?

Nikhil Kamath 2:08:26 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:08:26 It's, it, it takes time. Uh, and the other thing is, you know, voice matters, but-Change comes about through participation. And again, there's this romantic notion that change comes about because you're the outsider, the rebel, the disruptor. Actually, the change happens more because people become part of the process. They become part of the institutions. They change from the inside through a period of time and, and hard work. A-and that's what I try and get across to young people is, you know, that's for the most part how substantive change

Rishi Sunak 2:09:05 happens. It happens when you decide to come inside and be part of the process and take the time to bring it about. N-n-the kind of romantic cinematic notion that it can happen from the outside, being the disruptor with one speech or amazing protest, you know, that it works in the movies. I think it's less about real life, which is why young people should, if they do want to change things for the better, do it through, through government and come into public service and come in, uh, come into politics to, to bring it about.

Akshata Murty 2:09:35 Come into politics and then do what?

Rishi Sunak 2:09:37 And then, and then-

Akshata Murty 2:09:38 Convince other politicians?

Rishi Sunak 2:09:39 Sorry?

Akshata Murty 2:09:40 Convince other politicians?

Rishi Sunak 2:09:41 Yeah. I think... L-let me give you... An example I use, 'cause people say, "Oh, you can only have change if you become prime minister, not everyone gets to become prime minister." And I say, "That's not true." And the example I give young people who are thinking about becoming an MP is of a guy called William Wilberforce.

Akshata Murty 2:10:02 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:10:02 And he was an MP in Yorkshire, same as me, and my predecessor as a member of Parliament wrote a beautiful biography about him. Now, William Wilberforce was s-someone who essentially abolished the slave trade-

Akshata Murty 2:10:15 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 2:10:15 ... uh, in the UK and then internationally, and then helped abolish slavery. He was never a cabinet member, let alone prime minister or chancellor. He made a decision to do it only as a backbench MP, 'cause he believed that would give him the freedom and the moral authority and the time to focus on this one thing. He also had patience. From the first time he entered Parliament and made a speech about it, it took twenty years for him to get a bill passed in Parliament to abolish the slave trade, and then another twenty-odd years to have Parliament declare that slavery itself was illegal. So, and then he died three days after that, right? Uh, so his career on this issue spanned forty years-

Akshata Murty 2:10:57 His whole life, yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:10:57 ... of which the big meaningful, the first meaningful thing happened after twenty. And during that period, he had all the things that we've been talking about. He had to cope with failure. Parliament voted more than ten times no, no, no, no, no. Uh-

Akshata Murty 2:11:12 But like we discussed earlier, if everybody has to have the incentive of personal ambition being met, how do I incentivize a young guy who will only find that personal ambition need being met if he sits in a position of power?

Rishi Sunak 2:11:29 If he sits in a...?

Akshata Murty 2:11:30 Position of power.

Rishi Sunak 2:11:33 Um, well, wait. But then this goes back to what we were saying before. There are lots of different ways to make a difference-

Akshata Murty 2:11:39 Mm

Rishi Sunak 2:11:39 ... right, in life. There are lots of different ways to have impact. But if you want to have impact on that scale, the best way to do it is through government or, or through the political process, and that's what I'm saying. But even though you-- I'm saying you need to do it through the... We don't need to, but, uh, the best way to do it is through the political process. It doesn't mean you have to be the prime minister-

Akshata Murty 2:12:00 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:12:00 ... or in the cabinet. What I'd say is there are hundreds of members of Parliament, right? That is a different bar to becoming the prime minister. But this individual, William Wilberforce, as one of six hundred odd mem- or however many it was in those days, hundreds of members of Parliament, was able to bring about this very significant change.

Akshata Murty 2:12:18 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:12:19 Um, and he didn't do it on his own either. He... Touches on what we were saying before. He built a movement around him. Other people played their part. Now, he was the, the, the person at the front. Uh, but I think it's a really instructive story for young people to read, and I was inspired by it 'cause I didn't know I was gonna end up in cabinet or be prime minister. But it was, you know, as long as... as well as what Akshata's dad said to me, it was a great story of how one person could... You say can one person... Look, it takes more than one person, of course, there's a team, but it, you know, this was one person who made it his mission to do it. And it goes back to what you said earlier, Nikhil, about different motivations being complementary, and Akshata was talking about this, and I... He had a m-moral view that slavery was wrong, and that's what motivated him, and he was a person of faith.

Akshata Murty 2:13:04 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:13:05 And... But he was smart.

Akshata Murty 2:13:07 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:13:08 Right? A-and he recognized that wasn't the best way to persuade everyone, and actually, he came up with an economic case as to why slavery was wrong, and he came up with a patriotic security case why the slave trade was wrong because Britain was in a war with France, and he was saying, "Well, people are giving slaves to French. They'll be able to come and beat Britain, so we should ban the trade."

Akshata Murty 2:13:30 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:13:31 And he was clever that way, right? For him, it was a moral mission, but ultimately, he knew some people would be motivated by different things, so he was able to bring all of that to bear, um, a-and, and ultimately, as I said, have the patience, have the resilience, the storytelling that we talked about, um, but based actually oddly as well, he was a great orator. Uh, you know, you and I talking about learning from that. But there was another guy called Thomas Clarkson who did all the hard work of documenting-

Akshata Murty 2:14:00 Mm

Rishi Sunak 2:14:00 ... what was happening in these camps, in the slave plantations, on the boats where people were being traded, which was awful, and just painstakingly documented all this detail and hard work, which ultimately then became part of these, these stories. So I think it's a really powerful way to illustrate how change comes about, how politics is the best way or parliamentary processes are the best way to bring about massive change, but also illustrating that you don't need to be the prime minister or in the cabinet to, to do it.

Akshata Murty 2:14:28 But... Totally agree, but I think maybe, Nikhil, what you're ask- getting at is-

2:14:36 What kind of people should go into politics?

Rishi Sunak 2:14:38 Yeah. Who, who should get into politics?

Nikhil Kamath 2:14:40 No, I'm thinking for our audience.

Rishi Sunak 2:14:41 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:14:41 Like, the people we are speaking to are young Indian wannabe entrepreneurs.

Akshata Murty 2:14:46 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 2:14:47 If I have to convince one of them to become a politician, I need the... I need to meet their need for validation and their personal ambition need both. I'm trying to put something in each box.

Rishi Sunak 2:14:58 In the-

Akshata Murty 2:14:59 Mm

Rishi Sunak 2:14:59 ... validation and ambition box.

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:00 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:15:01 But I... So first of all, I don't think they need to give up being an entrepreneur.

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:06 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:15:06 Right? W- we talked about it before. I think people are more effective as politicians or in government having brought that experience-

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:18 Mm

Rishi Sunak 2:15:18 ... into parliament-

Akshata Murty 2:15:19 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 2:15:20 ... with them, or into government with them. So for the people listening, you know, I, I would say go build your business. You, you're gonna learn an extraordinary amount doing that.

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:31 But I'm figuring how to trigger them to enter politics today.

Rishi Sunak 2:15:35 After they've built a business or right now?

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:37 Right now.

Rishi Sunak 2:15:39 Well, do they need to?

Akshata Murty 2:15:42 Yeah, that's what-

Rishi Sunak 2:15:43 Why do they need to do it today?

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:44 [laughs] Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:15:45 I... This is the thing. I mean, I-

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:46 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:15:47 Sure, some people might want to. I'm... My personal bias is for people to do something else first.

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:53 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:15:54 And I don't think... And this goes back to what we were saying before, there's this, you know, rush, rush, rush.

Nikhil Kamath 2:15:58 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:15:58 I... Build your business. Why?

Nikhil Kamath 2:16:00 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:16:00 Because it will give you that validation that you want.

Nikhil Kamath 2:16:03 Mm.

Akshata Murty 2:16:03 And skills and-

Rishi Sunak 2:16:04 A- and, and set of practical skills, and financial security and independence. And my word, what an incredible platform that is to then enter politics, where you have so much more understanding and self-awareness of who you are.

Nikhil Kamath 2:16:20 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:16:21 You've already got that validation.

Nikhil Kamath 2:16:23 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:16:23 Which, which means you will enter the political arena with so much more personal self-confidence.

Nikhil Kamath 2:16:28 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:16:28 The resilience of having had the ups and downs of building a business and doing something, and then using that experience to benefit-

Nikhil Kamath 2:16:33 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:16:33 ... the country. But that, that motivation has to be one where you are getting into it because you want to make your country a better place.

Akshata Murty 2:16:42 Yep.

Rishi Sunak 2:16:42 Like, that has to be-

Akshata Murty 2:16:43 That's the service

Rishi Sunak 2:16:43 ... at the core of it.

Nikhil Kamath 2:16:44 Yeah. Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:16:44 Right? And, and you, that's okay to be ambitious about it.

Nikhil Kamath 2:16:46 I think that is, that is true for many, many young people I know.

Rishi Sunak 2:16:48 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:16:49 But what I'm trying to also say is for a country where the average age is 28-

Rishi Sunak 2:16:54 Yes.

Akshata Murty 2:16:54 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 2:16:55 ... we need more people who are 28 in parliament.

Rishi Sunak 2:16:58 I... Look, I, I can see... Oh, look, I can see that.

Nikhil Kamath 2:17:01 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:17:01 I can see that overall.

Nikhil Kamath 2:17:02 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:17:03 I can... My point about as an individual, I think you're better off-

Akshata Murty 2:17:07 But, but-

Rishi Sunak 2:17:07 ... having the experience. I can see if for everyone does that, and then nobody is in parliament at a young age. I can, I can see that.

Akshata Murty 2:17:14 But, but maybe, Rish, it, it comes back to that passion thing, which you were saying-

Rishi Sunak 2:17:18 Yeah

Akshata Murty 2:17:18 ... so eloquently about Wi- William Wilberforce, right? For... I don't know the history-

Rishi Sunak 2:17:23 Well, he, he-

Akshata Murty 2:17:23 ... so pardon me, but he, he-

Rishi Sunak 2:17:25 He entered, he entered parliament at 28.

Akshata Murty 2:17:27 Right.

Rishi Sunak 2:17:27 So.

Akshata Murty 2:17:27 So he-

Nikhil Kamath 2:17:28 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 2:17:29 Thank you. Thank you, Ji. He had this deep-seated passion for abolishing slavery.

Nikhil Kamath 2:17:38 Mm.

Akshata Murty 2:17:38 That mattered more to him than anything else.

Nikhil Kamath 2:17:41 Mm. Mm.

Akshata Murty 2:17:42 And in a country as large as India, where you said the average pop-

Nikhil Kamath 2:17:47 Age is 28.

Akshata Murty 2:17:48 Age is 8- 28, I am sure there are young people, or 28-year-olds, who... There are at least some 28-year-olds who will have these moral missions.

Rishi Sunak 2:18:02 But there will be.

Akshata Murty 2:18:04 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:18:04 But they don't need to... This, again, what we were saying before.

Akshata Murty 2:18:07 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:18:08 They don't need to just have some moral or social mission.

Nikhil Kamath 2:18:11 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:18:12 It's a great mission if someone is-

Akshata Murty 2:18:14 Koli

Rishi Sunak 2:18:15 ... listening to you-

Akshata Murty 2:18:16 Thank you.

Nikhil Kamath 2:18:16 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 2:18:16 ... but cares passionately about entrepreneurship.

Nikhil Kamath 2:18:18 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:18:19 Right?

Akshata Murty 2:18:20 Thank you.

Rishi Sunak 2:18:20 Then, you know, that's not a social, necessarily a kind of social outcome.

Nikhil Kamath 2:18:25 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:18:25 But-

Nikhil Kamath 2:18:25 Or for good.

Rishi Sunak 2:18:27 It... Go- going into parliament-

Nikhil Kamath 2:18:29 Go ahead

Rishi Sunak 2:18:29 ... to make sure that India is a fantastic country for entrepreneurs-

Akshata Murty 2:18:34 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 2:18:34 Right

Rishi Sunak 2:18:34 ... to encourage all the people listening to you to grow their businesses-

Akshata Murty 2:18:37 They may not make the money an entrepreneur makes.

Nikhil Kamath 2:18:39 Yeah, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:18:39 But, but they, they're passionate about entrepreneurship, and, and they recognize that entrepreneurship is important to India succeeding.

Nikhil Kamath 2:18:45 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:18:46 Go into parliament and be the champion for that.

Akshata Murty 2:18:49 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:18:49 Right?

Akshata Murty 2:18:50 Be the champion for small business, for example.

Rishi Sunak 2:18:51 You know, what does it mean to make India the... I mean, India is already a very vibrant entrepreneurial ecosystem, but we can all get better.

Akshata Murty 2:18:58 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:18:58 But that can be your passion. It doesn't have to be... And it's fine, there will be some people who have a more social, classic-

Akshata Murty 2:19:03 Sure. Yeah, right. No, no, I agree

Rishi Sunak 2:19:04 ... or William, William Wilberforce style.

Akshata Murty 2:19:05 I mean, we're also leaning into who we are, right?

Rishi Sunak 2:19:07 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:19:07 Like, 'cause you're-

Rishi Sunak 2:19:08 Yes. [laughs]

Akshata Murty 2:19:08 ... you're... I'm kind of thinking about-

Rishi Sunak 2:19:09 But I think, you know, for lots of people who are-

Akshata Murty 2:19:10 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:19:10 ... entrepreneurially minded or technology minded, those things can be put to incredible positive good-

Akshata Murty 2:19:16 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:19:16 ... for India. So you can be excited and passionate about those areas, and think, "Actually, well, I'm gonna use politics as the vehicle to make sure India and Indians prosper when it comes to technology, when it comes to entrepreneurship," right? That can be your mission in parliament to do.

Akshata Murty 2:19:33 And the validation comes from... I, I, I mean, you'll speak better than me, but, you know, if you can get s- some kind of law passed, right?

Rishi Sunak 2:19:41 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 2:19:41 That makes it easier-

Rishi Sunak 2:19:42 And there's lots of different ways

Akshata Murty 2:19:43 ... for small businesses to be incorporated.

Rishi Sunak 2:19:45 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:19:45 That makes it easier for s- for... not to get into controversial topics, but social media to be regulated.

Rishi Sunak 2:19:52 And when you-

Akshata Murty 2:19:52 Whatever it is, right?

Rishi Sunak 2:19:53 When you do one thing, when you contribute to changing one clause and one law that's-

Akshata Murty 2:19:57 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:19:57 ... passing parliament, that will unlock something special for entrepreneurs or technologists, for the rest of your life, you will have done that for 1.4 billion people.

Akshata Murty 2:20:05 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:05 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:20:05 It's a, it's a pretty big va-

Akshata Murty 2:20:07 I mean, talk about impact at scale.

Rishi Sunak 2:20:07 I mean, you were talking about validation-

Akshata Murty 2:20:09 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:20:09 ... where people want validation.

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:10 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:20:10 I... You know, sure, it's great to have a company and a unicorn IPO. That is great. I... Changing a law that is gonna impact 1.4 billion people and how your country progresses, think about the compounding benefit of that. Like, that is... You know, sure, it doesn't al-... That value doesn't accrue to you personally.

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:27 Right.

Rishi Sunak 2:20:28 The monetary value doesn't.

Akshata Murty 2:20:28 And that's where the service bit comes in.

Rishi Sunak 2:20:30 Right. That's where you have to be motivated. The societal value is not in the unicorn billion here, 100 million here.

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:37 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:20:37 It's in the-Hundreds and hundreds of billions, um-

Akshata Murty 2:20:41 Please think violence-

Rishi Sunak 2:20:41 Or the, or the-

Akshata Murty 2:20:42 No. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 2:20:43 Millions and millions. So-

Akshata Murty 2:20:44 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:20:44 ... I, I, I, you know, you-

Akshata Murty 2:20:45 I'm excited to be 28 and go into politics now. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 2:20:48 [laughs]

Akshata Murty 2:20:48 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:48 There are some, you know, in a way.

Akshata Murty 2:20:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:50 You know the guy in, uh, our constituency, South Bangalore, is quite young.

Rishi Sunak 2:20:55 Oh, is he?

Akshata Murty 2:20:55 Yes. His name is-

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:56 Tejaswi.

Akshata Murty 2:20:57 Tejaswi, yes

Nikhil Kamath 2:20:58 ... a friend of mine. He's a young chap.

Akshata Murty 2:20:59 Yes.

Rishi Sunak 2:20:59 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:00 I think he's 30 now.

Akshata Murty 2:21:01 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:21:01 The, the other, the other reason that people should think about it is the, the... notwithstanding everything I said before about experience and everything else, y- you... it's, it's differentiating.

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:12 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:21:13 Right? If you are one of very few young people-

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:15 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 2:21:16 ... you are differentiated in politics.

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:19 Public adoration is a big point of validation-

Akshata Murty 2:21:22 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:23 ... which does come with being a politician.

Akshata Murty 2:21:25 But, but can I-

Rishi Sunak 2:21:25 I, I think that... So that, [laughs] that is a-

Akshata Murty 2:21:28 That's a trick, that's a-

Rishi Sunak 2:21:28 ... is different in different countries

Akshata Murty 2:21:29 ... that's a, that's a tricky path. [laughs]

Rishi Sunak 2:21:30 Yeah, that is in different countries. May- maybe more so here.

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:33 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:21:33 Um, thank you, Nimla. Uh, the, you know, 'cause in, in lots of places in the West, it's quite unforgiving.

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:41 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:21:41 Right? The, the day-to-day experience of most-

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:44 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 2:21:45 ... politicians is hard, right? Because of-

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:47 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:21:47 ... things like social media-

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:48 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:21:48 ... and the criticism and things like that. It's very... It can be very rewarding and fulfilling, of course it can be.

Nikhil Kamath 2:21:53 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:21:53 But for, you know, it, it, it's not every day it's, you know, like a all sunshine and rainbows.

Akshata Murty 2:22:00 Um, it comes back to what I wrote about in my Stanford Business

Akshata Murty 2:22:04 School essay, and, and in fact, I did write about this, is the solution is education. So here's what I mean. You, you, you know, when you think of a society and how it progresses, there are, there are many different ways, but you want to make sure that you... the society that you live in, the, the, the government of the land, of the nation provides sufficient security so that the basic needs are met, right? Now, I know that that isn't always easy, but that's sort of the focus.

Nikhil Kamath 2:22:44 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 2:22:45 And then you think, "Well, okay, then how can we progress as a society?" And to me, the answer is education, because education, in my mind, is one of the things that allows equality of opportunity to emerge.

Nikhil Kamath 2:22:59 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 2:23:00 Um-

Nikhil Kamath 2:23:01 In a way, has that been solved for? Because education has gotten democratized with internet and AI and all of that. Like, I never went to college.

Akshata Murty 2:23:08 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:23:08 I can choose to pick a book I like to read and read it.

Akshata Murty 2:23:11 Yeah, but that's-

Nikhil Kamath 2:23:12 It's not that expensive

Akshata Murty 2:23:12 ... because you're fundamentally curious.

Nikhil Kamath 2:23:15 Mm. But-

Akshata Murty 2:23:15 So I define education more broadly.

Rishi Sunak 2:23:18 Broadly.

Akshata Murty 2:23:18 Right?

Rishi Sunak 2:23:18 But i- but Nikhil's point is right.

Akshata Murty 2:23:20 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:23:20 I, and I, I was talking about at the, the summit, is one of the... to me, one of the incredible things that AI can do, it isn't just about raising the ceiling. It can lift the floor for humanity, and the most obvious ways it can do that are democratizing access to healthcare and education, right? Where you've got, uh... now, it is possible that, before too long, every single child will be able to have the best possible teacher for them.

Akshata Murty 2:23:49 And that's the job of philanthropy, of government, of, uh, of, uh, organi- different organizations to, to enable those outcomes, right? So yes, any child who lives in a certain society should have access to what, what I think is a broad s- sense of education. Of course, that's letters and numbers, but it's also curiosity. It's problem-thinking skills. Because when you are... when you have that in your toolkit, that's when you, you, you, you create entrepreneurs, you create, um, innovation, you create, uh, wealth in so many different ways. And, and then the tax co- i- is kind of the next step. But I think how do we first create that equality of opportunity-

Nikhil Kamath 2:24:43 Mm

Akshata Murty 2:24:43 ... so that more people are able to create that wealth in the first place?

Nikhil Kamath 2:24:47 But even with education-

Akshata Murty 2:24:48 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 2:24:49 ... barring the risk capital, if asset prices continue to inflate at the pace that they are-

Rishi Sunak 2:24:55 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 2:24:55 ... it'll be very hard for the inequality to come down.

Rishi Sunak 2:24:58 So-

Nikhil Kamath 2:24:58 I met this interesting guy, Michael Milken.

Akshata Murty 2:25:00 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:25:00 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:01 He spent a lot of money and time coming up with this plan where he wants to give every child-

Rishi Sunak 2:25:06 Okay

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:06 ... who's born a certain amount of equity.

Rishi Sunak 2:25:08 Exactly. So that's what I was just gonna say.

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:10 Equity in the beginning.

Rishi Sunak 2:25:10 So trying... I mean, look, this is your old life, right? Um, but trying to give more people a stake in the system-

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:20 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:25:20 ... a financial stake, is a good thing.

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:22 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:25:22 And actually-

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:22 I think even the US is considering this

Rishi Sunak 2:25:24 ... uh, the US is going down this line.

Akshata Murty 2:25:25 Is Michael Dell doing something around-

Rishi Sunak 2:25:26 Uh, Michael Dell has-

Akshata Murty 2:25:27 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:25:27 ... helped part-fund some of it bec- And it's actually what some of the work that motivates our charity in the UK that we've set up-

Akshata Murty 2:25:33 Mm

Rishi Sunak 2:25:33 ... The Richmond Project, which is around numeracy, is 'cause if, if people have better, stronger number skills, then they can be more financially literate. And so the research from Stanford actually tells us some of these foundational skills you need to understand are inflation and compounding.

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:52 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:25:52 They are two fundamental things that lots of people do not understand.

Nikhil Kamath 2:25:56 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:25:56 And if they don't, that inequality will widen. 'Cause if you understand those things-

Akshata Murty 2:26:00 You're smarter about your-

Rishi Sunak 2:26:01 ... then you, you recognize that inflation erodes the purchasing power. And compou- if you understand the power of compound interest [laughs] or compounding in general, right, and you understand that when you're young-

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:12 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 2:26:12 ... right, those two things-

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:14 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:26:14 ... and of course, to answer this point, you need to have had a good education to have a decent job. But you need to then think with your, "I need to save," right?

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:22 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:26:22 There is an e- element of saving. This is how I should save. This is why I need to save. That compounds over time. Like, that's what we need to do more of. Other than... Otherwise, that gap will keep growing.

Akshata Murty 2:26:32 Maybe I should take education back and say learning.

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:35 Mm.

Akshata Murty 2:26:35 Being curious, being-

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:36 Yeah. How do you teach someone to be curious though?

Akshata Murty 2:26:39 Yeah. That's a... I mean, I have to think about that.

Rishi Sunak 2:26:43 We, uh, yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:45 Milken, Michael Milken had this interesting thought that-

Akshata Murty 2:26:47 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:47 ... if you start somebody off with, say, I don't know, $1,000 in an S&P index fund-

Rishi Sunak 2:26:52 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:52 ... like the ETF, psychologically them knowing that they have something-

Rishi Sunak 2:26:58 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:26:58 ... something to lose-

Akshata Murty 2:26:59 It's invested. They're invested

Nikhil Kamath 2:27:00 ... psychologically changes behavior-

Rishi Sunak 2:27:02 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:27:02 ... significantly.

Akshata Murty 2:27:04 Mm. Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 2:27:04 More than the cost of the $1,000.

Akshata Murty 2:27:06 Mm. Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:27:07 Yeah, yeah. I, I, I think there's probably something to that.

Nikhil Kamath 2:27:09 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:27:09 And that's... Like, our way of contributing to that is-

Nikhil Kamath 2:27:12 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:27:12 ... is through giving people the, the s-

Akshata Murty 2:27:14 Financial literacy

Rishi Sunak 2:27:15 ... the confidence they need with, uh-

Akshata Murty 2:27:17 Or literacy with numbers

Rishi Sunak 2:27:18 ... numbers, and therefore financial literacy so they know what to do with it, right? And, and even if not everyone is gonna be able to be given the $1,000, right? So either you need the people who are able to save to recognize they should save, how to save, that it's worth their while saving. Um, so I... Look, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a big believer in that. I... Your point, Anjali, on curiosity, 'cause we, um, we talk about that, uh, a lot. Um, and I, I actually think-

Akshata Murty 2:27:47 Mm

Rishi Sunak 2:27:47 ... they're slightly different things, because Akshata's very big on-

Nikhil Kamath 2:27:50 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 2:27:50 ... just being curious for the sake of being curious, and trying to instill that in the kids. I-

Akshata Murty 2:27:54 Learning for the sake of learning

Rishi Sunak 2:27:56 ... of learning. I'm, I'm a little bit more learn for a purpose, a bit practical applied. But I, I've come to realize that I think one of the, uh, you know, one of the most kind of compounding skills that you can develop is exactly this. It's... I... We call it learnability.

Nikhil Kamath 2:28:18 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:28:18 Which is a little bit different from your curiosity, but they're linked.

Akshata Murty 2:28:21 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:28:21 And, and I've just think about my own career, you know, has traversed finance, government, technology, policy. Like, the, the, the compounding skill is being able to learn new things, and I think that is only gonna be more relevant in this new world. So if I'd like... When I talk to young people now and I say like, "Just learn how to learn," [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 2:28:41 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:28:41 ... that, that-

Akshata Murty 2:28:41 And that to me is education.

Rishi Sunak 2:28:42 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:28:43 You know? So it's not about a degree, it's not about-

Rishi Sunak 2:28:44 It's not about a fixed... Exactly. It's not about a fixed point thing

Akshata Murty 2:28:46 ... it's not about, like, an institutional-

Nikhil Kamath 2:28:47 Maybe the solution lies in what you said earlier. You brought up Greek philosophy.

Akshata Murty 2:28:51 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:28:53 Maybe AI will solve this problem as well, because in times of abundance-

Akshata Murty 2:28:57 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 2:28:57 ... we go back to, like the Greeks did in their time-

Akshata Murty 2:29:00 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 2:29:00 ... philosophy and anthropology.

Rishi Sunak 2:29:02 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:29:03 Correct.

Nikhil Kamath 2:29:03 It was an entire profession to sit and think about life.

Akshata Murty 2:29:05 And that's, to me, is what makes us more human.

Nikhil Kamath 2:29:08 Yeah. Maybe AI and, uh-

Rishi Sunak 2:29:10 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:29:10 ... productivity gains and abundance will get us to that point where everybody has more than enough-

Akshata Murty 2:29:16 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:29:16 ... so then we can sit and think about things.

Akshata Murty 2:29:18 Yeah. Yeah. It's what was said in that, uh, when you and Elon had that conversation.

Rishi Sunak 2:29:25 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:29:25 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:29:26 It's a very utopian view of the world.

Akshata Murty 2:29:27 It is a very-

Rishi Sunak 2:29:27 It's a, it's a very utopian view

Akshata Murty 2:29:28 ... utopian way of the world. Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:29:29 And, and until we get to that point-

Akshata Murty 2:29:31 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:29:31 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:29:31 Sure

Rishi Sunak 2:29:32 ... I, I think people's careers will- [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 2:29:34 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:29:34 ... keep changing. So this ability to keep learning-

Nikhil Kamath 2:29:38 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:29:38 ... new things, I think is a underestimated, very powerful-

Nikhil Kamath 2:29:43 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:29:43 ... quality to have.

Nikhil Kamath 2:29:45 How do you see AI in your lives? What do you use it for?

Akshata Murty 2:29:48 Oh.

Nikhil Kamath 2:29:49 Like, the biggest use case.

Rishi Sunak 2:29:52 Biggest use case, I mean, for me is research, right?

Akshata Murty 2:29:56 I was gonna say research.

Rishi Sunak 2:29:56 Like, thinking about policy-

Akshata Murty 2:29:57 Just on different things, yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:29:58 ... and researching things. But that-

Nikhil Kamath 2:29:59 And likely Claude, 'cause you're consulting with it daily.

Rishi Sunak 2:30:01 And, exactly. So I, I... The Claude is what I use the most.

Akshata Murty 2:30:05 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:30:06 Um, and-

Nikhil Kamath 2:30:06 Have you given Claude all the connectors access and allowed it to-

Rishi Sunak 2:30:09 I'm starting to do that now. So I'm start- I haven't yet. I've got this course that I'm about to do-

Nikhil Kamath 2:30:14 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 2:30:15 ... uh, to start using it for... I wanna start using it with Excel.

Nikhil Kamath 2:30:20 I've given it a lot of access, and now I'm worried.

Rishi Sunak 2:30:21 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:30:22 'Cause I don't even go to my email inbox anymore, 'cause I've given it access to my-

Rishi Sunak 2:30:26 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:30:26 ... all my emails-

Rishi Sunak 2:30:27 Now I have all of that

Nikhil Kamath 2:30:28 ... and chat and all of that.

Akshata Murty 2:30:29 Mm. Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 2:30:29 So I ask it, "Are there any important emails that I missed today?"

Akshata Murty 2:30:33 Mm. Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 2:30:33 And it saves me the time to scroll through.

Rishi Sunak 2:30:34 To scroll through. Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:30:36 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:30:36 No, I-

Nikhil Kamath 2:30:36 It's scary.

Akshata Murty 2:30:37 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:30:37 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:30:37 It knows every word of every email.

Rishi Sunak 2:30:39 Uh, so what I'm, I'm about... We're just developing in the office, is we, to... So it has access to... Well, actually, and, and Copilot, so we've just got Copilot as well. So, 'cause I want Copilot to be able to, in our share- in our office SharePoint, uh, OneDrive, whatev- uh, yeah, OneDrive, um-

Nikhil Kamath 2:30:58 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:30:58 ... or sh- uh, the, to be able to... 'Cause it needs to know what we've done and what we've got so that it can build on it.

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:04 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:31:05 Right? So that, that for us is quite important. So just getting that Copilot integration-

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:09 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:31:09 ... where it can go into the folder and I can say, "Look, here are all these things. Do X."

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:14 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:31:14 Um, that, that is what we're doing next. I've never learnt how to code.

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:17 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:31:18 So on my-

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:19 But now you don't need to.

Rishi Sunak 2:31:20 No, well, oh, now, so I need to learn how to vibe code.

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:22 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:31:23 Right? So I've got a video course that I'm about to start.

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:27 Can I tell you from somebody who-

Rishi Sunak 2:31:28 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:28 ... went through it recently?

Rishi Sunak 2:31:29 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:29 I don't know anything about coding or programming. I hired this guy recently who spends an hour or two with me every day.

Rishi Sunak 2:31:37 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:38 And we were having these conversations, and we started with Claude Bot.

Rishi Sunak 2:31:42 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:43 Uh, so this is a little bit, uh, now it's called OpenClaude, but-

Rishi Sunak 2:31:48 OpenClaude. Yeah, yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:49 ... this is a little, I don't know, scary, because you kinda, like, host it on a tiny-

Rishi Sunak 2:31:54 On this Mac Mini, right?

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:55 Yeah, and you give it access to everything.

Rishi Sunak 2:31:57 Yeah, that.

Nikhil Kamath 2:31:58 But the thing I realized about prompting is even on, even when you use Claude code for the first time, like, how specific you are while you prompt is a skill set in itself-

Rishi Sunak 2:32:11 Mm-hmm

Nikhil Kamath 2:32:11 ... which I don't have. So somebody said it really well. I was watching the interview of the guy who built Claude Bot, or OpenClaude now. He said it's like playing the piano. You can't expect somebody to sit in front of the piano and prompt for the very first time, or give up when you try to play for the very first time-

Rishi Sunak 2:32:30 Mm-hmm

Nikhil Kamath 2:32:30 ... and not try again. You need, like, a few lessons.

Rishi Sunak 2:32:34 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:32:34 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 2:32:34 But it's not too many. I've done, like, maybe a month of lessons. That's about it. It feels like there is that point where-

Akshata Murty 2:32:44 You cross that line where you start to feel more comfortable-

Rishi Sunak 2:32:47 Mm-hmm

Akshata Murty 2:32:47 ... with it. But I don't think it's week one, I think it's week three.

Rishi Sunak 2:32:50 Yeah. No, I think it will take some time.

Akshata Murty 2:32:52 It'll go to week one soon.

Rishi Sunak 2:32:53 Yeah. Well, that will be good. But I... That, to me, seems like an important new skill f- to develop.

Nikhil Kamath 2:33:00 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:33:01 Right? At first... Now, it is perfectly plausible that I should be able to create software that will-

Nikhil Kamath 2:33:06 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:33:06 ... do certain... There's so, so many things that I do.

Nikhil Kamath 2:33:09 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:33:09 And I'm starting to figure out, but I need someone to help me understand how do I think about all the things I do, which ones will lend themselves to being-

Nikhil Kamath 2:33:17 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:33:18 ... basically dealt with.

Nikhil Kamath 2:33:20 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:33:20 And then learn how to get, build the thing to do it. Um, so that is my next thing to do. But the thing, actually, where [laughs] I mean, you, you do your thing as well. But I, I, I'm... We go back to education. That is the thing that I find it incredibly helpful at home.

Akshata Murty 2:33:36 Transformative, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:33:37 It's transformative to be able to teach our kids. I'm not a good... She's an excellent teacher.

Akshata Murty 2:33:43 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:33:44 I'm not a good teacher. It's one, you know, it's one thing to know something.

Akshata Murty 2:33:47 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:33:47 It's a different thing to be able to explain it and teach others.

Akshata Murty 2:33:49 And impart it, yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:33:50 And-

Nikhil Kamath 2:33:50 That's what, but this is what I've always thought with schooling and college. I didn't go, so I, I mean-

Rishi Sunak 2:33:54 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 2:33:54 ... it's natural that I take this perspective.

Akshata Murty 2:33:57 This view, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:33:58 But when you don't go to a formal institution-

Akshata Murty 2:34:01 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:01 ... you can pick what books you want to read.

Akshata Murty 2:34:03 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:34:03 Mm.

Akshata Murty 2:34:04 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:05 Like, structure takes that away.

Akshata Murty 2:34:07 Mm-hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:07 And I feel like, in many ways, it's a disadvantage.

Rishi Sunak 2:34:12 Which is, which is a disadvantage?

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:13 Like going to a structured institution and being told what to read and how to read.

Akshata Murty 2:34:17 It also depends on the personality, I think, a little bit.

Rishi Sunak 2:34:20 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:34:20 But it's... But now I th- we're getting to-

Rishi Sunak 2:34:21 How self-motivated.

Akshata Murty 2:34:23 Not, I wasn't even talking about motivation as much as, like even between us, you like more structure, I like less structure.

Rishi Sunak 2:34:28 Yeah. Yeah, you respond-

Akshata Murty 2:34:30 Right?

Rishi Sunak 2:34:30 ... better to-

Akshata Murty 2:34:30 So, so I respond better when I don't have as many guardrails, right?

Rishi Sunak 2:34:35 Right.

Akshata Murty 2:34:36 But if the entire education system is evolving to be a place where you come in, you interact with peers, but actually it's self-directed learning guided by AI-

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:48 Yeah

Akshata Murty 2:34:48 ... then there's a different way to learn.

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:52 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:34:52 And, and it probably would have suited you and been better that way.

Nikhil Kamath 2:34:56 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:34:57 But hel- but helping our kids with learning. It's, so I was, like I... That's what I did the other week and, and when you were away and, and, uh-

Akshata Murty 2:35:05 Oh, yes

Rishi Sunak 2:35:05 ... yeah. And I, but I've done that increasingly, where I, I haven't... They've got to have physics, our daughter had a physics test a couple of weeks ago. I haven't done any physics since I was-

Akshata Murty 2:35:15 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:35:15 ... 16.

Akshata Murty 2:35:16 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:35:17 And I, I didn't know off the top of my head what she was doing. But I popped the paper into Claude.

Akshata Murty 2:35:23 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:35:23 It comes back with a question by question explanatory guide.

Akshata Murty 2:35:27 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:35:28 So I can then-

Akshata Murty 2:35:29 Mm-hmm

Rishi Sunak 2:35:29 ... help her. Um, and then it created a revision booklet at the end [laughs] that I could then use the next day to help her prep for the test. I, I, if that wasn't there, it would've been a right pain to-

Nikhil Kamath 2:35:41 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:35:41 ... try and do. So I, and I saw that, and then I see them in... We see our kids, we've encouraged them to use it, but we've tried to say to them and supervise it. We say, "Look, it's not... It's gotta help you think. It can't do-

Akshata Murty 2:35:53 Mm

Rishi Sunak 2:35:53 ... the thinking for you."

Nikhil Kamath 2:35:55 Yeah.

Rishi Sunak 2:35:55 It can explain things to you-

Nikhil Kamath 2:35:56 Yeah

Rishi Sunak 2:35:57 ... so you learn, but you, you need to have done the thinking.

Akshata Murty 2:36:01 Mm-hmm.

Rishi Sunak 2:36:01 Like, so especially when they're young, the-

Akshata Murty 2:36:03 So-

Rishi Sunak 2:36:03 Yeah

Akshata Murty 2:36:03 ... like, one discipline I have is I never use AI to write.

Nikhil Kamath 2:36:07 Yeah?

Akshata Murty 2:36:07 Nope. And it's old-fashioned, I get it.

Nikhil Kamath 2:36:10 On pen and paper?

Akshata Murty 2:36:11 No, meaning-

Nikhil Kamath 2:36:12 Type.

Akshata Murty 2:36:13 I type, yeah. Yeah. But I just, I just can't do that. I just can't do it.

Nikhil Kamath 2:36:17 And what do you write about now?

Akshata Murty 2:36:19 Oh, whatever I'm writing about. You know, I, currently I'm involved in, um, arts and culture and doing some storytelling around, uh, um, cultural institutions in the UK. I'm doing some work around, um, uh, fashion, entrepreneurship, uh, and business. Um, I use, I use Google for research.

Nikhil Kamath 2:36:48 Yeah.

Akshata Murty 2:36:48 But I'll tell you where I use... I'm, I'm starting to think with AI, but I don't use Claude or anyone else to help me write. The, right? Like the thesis-

Nikhil Kamath 2:36:56 Mm-hmm

Akshata Murty 2:36:56 ... of any argument I write myself. Um, even the speeches, et cetera, I write them all out. Um, but what I've been fascinated is...

Akshata Murty 2:37:10 Again, as someone who's on the outside, can AI be creative?

Rishi Sunak 2:37:13 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 2:37:14 And what then is even creativity, right?

Rishi Sunak 2:37:17 Mm-hmm.

Akshata Murty 2:37:17 Uh, for a long time in the early days of this whole, uh, evolution of AI, uh, people would say, "Well, AI c- can, uh, code faster than you solve mathematical problems, et cetera, but it can't be creative." And so I'm, I've been amazed how I can have philosophical discussions with Claude, and it will come up with the most creative, thoughtful answers. I mean, amazing.

Nikhil Kamath 2:37:52 What is creative in your view? Is it contrarian beha- behavior that's creative?

Akshata Murty 2:37:56 No, putting multiple thoughts together, right?

Nikhil Kamath 2:37:58 Right.

Akshata Murty 2:37:59 Putting... Not just giving me a f- list of facts or kind of obvious-

Nikhil Kamath 2:38:05 Right

Akshata Murty 2:38:05 ... answers, but pulling, connecting the dots.

Nikhil Kamath 2:38:09 Right.

Akshata Murty 2:38:09 Pulling not facts, but also even emotion.

Nikhil Kamath 2:38:16 Mm-hmm. I would, in a way, in the new world, define creativity by contrarian behavior more so than yesterday-

Akshata Murty 2:38:25 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 2:38:25 ... because a lot of these models are trained on data which always projects a certain path.

Akshata Murty 2:38:35 Mm. Yes, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 2:38:38 Mm.

Rishi Sunak 2:38:40 'Cause they're trained on a stock of-

Nikhil Kamath 2:38:42 Yeah

Akshata Murty 2:38:42 ... existing information

Rishi Sunak 2:38:42 ... knowledge and information.