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Rishi Sunak & Akshata Murty: Power, Identity & Why Patience Beats Ambition | Nikhil | People by WTF

Rishi Sunak says patience is a bigger competitive advantage than speed, that every decision that reaches a leader is 50-50 by definition because if it weren't someone else would have made it, that the long term is just a succession of short terms you either survived or got kicked out of, and that the thing he wishes he'd done more of in his career is read fiction. While non-fiction tells you what to do and how to do it, fiction teaches you why and gives you a deeper understanding of people. Akshata Murty says her identity was never her father's name or her husband's title, that the middle path between stoicism and epicureanism is where the answer almost always lives, and that the validation she chases is impact. Not position, not wealth, not the approval of people who've already decided who she is. First couple's episode we've ever done, and it went places none of us expected. 00:00 Introduction 06:04 Foundery: India's consumer brand accelerator 12:20 Storytelling as a leadership superpower 18:05 Parents' pharmacy inspired political career 24:04 Educating children in the AI era 30:05 Leaning into human skills over AI 36:17 How Rishi and Akshata decide differently 42:10 Goldman Sachs to Prime Minister journey 48:03 Patience as an underrated competitive advantage 54:15 Entering politics: resilience, patience, service 1:00:06 Staying unapologetically Indian in British politics 1:06:51 Life inside 10 Downing Street 1:12:20 AI sovereignty and global trade tensions 1:18:32 De-globalisation and supply chain resilience 1:24:38 Free trade, tariffs, and level playing fields 1:31:17 Akshata's identity beyond famous family 1:37:53 Validation through impact, not inheritance 1:44:04 Finding balance between desire and austerity 1:50:04 Being kind to yourself after failure 1:56:42 Identity, heritage, and the living bridge 2:03:03 Nostalgic Bangalore food and childhood memories 2:09:05 Why young Indians should enter politics 2:16:03 Education, financial literacy, and compounding 2:22:04 Learning to learn in the AI age 2:29:52 How Rishi and Akshata use AI daily 2:37:09 Can AI truly be creative? 2:44:06 Losing the Prime Ministership: lessons in dharma 2:51:30 Poets versus politicians: who should we hear? 2:58:17 Motivating young people to shape policy #nikhilkamath Co-founder of Zerodha and Gruhas Host of 'WTF is' & 'People By WTF' Podcast Twitter: https://x.com/nikhilkamathcio/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nikhilkamathcio/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikhilkamathcio?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nikhilkamathcio/ #rishisunak Former PM of the UK Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@UCFAdRzdogoJg5ctT8ZALp3g X - https://x.com/RishiSunak?s=20 Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/rishisunakmp Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/rishisunak LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/rishi-sunak/ #akshatamurty Businesswoman and Philanthropist Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@UCvOKB3ePP8b_CWfsR8TODIg X - https://x.com/anmurty Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/akshatamurty_official LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/akshata-murty-5a04232/ Watch 'WTF is' Podcast on Spotify https://tinyurl.com/4nsm4ezn Watch 'People by WTF' Podcast on Spotify https://tinyurl.com/yme92c59 Watch 'WTF Online' on Spotify https://tinyurl.com/4tjua4th #WTFiswithnikhilkamath #PeopleByWTF #WTFOnline

Nikhil KamathhostAkshata MurtyguestRishi Sunakguest
Mar 25, 20263h 2mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 6:04

    Introduction

    1. SP

      [upbeat music] [fire crackling]

    2. NK

      I'm not gonna talk to Akshata like she's Rishi's wife or Narayana-

    3. AM

      Thank you

    4. NK

      ... Murthy's daughter.

    5. AM

      [laughs]

    6. NK

      Uh, forget Rishi and your dad. Where does Akshata's validation come from?

    7. AM

      Mm. From genuinely having impact.

    8. NK

      How was the journey, Rishi, from going from being a person who was at Goldman Sachs to becoming the Prime Minister of UK? I know it's a big question.

    9. RS

      It's a big question.

    10. NK

      Yeah. [laughs] A lot more young people-

    11. RS

      Yeah

    12. NK

      ... need to participate in politics.

    13. RS

      Yes.

    14. NK

      For somebody sitting on the outside, a young guy who wants to be in politics-

    15. RS

      Yeah

    16. NK

      ... how hard is it?

    17. RS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    18. NK

      Is it a, is it that one person can actually change stuff? [upbeat music] Tell me when we start, huh?

    19. AM

      Yeah.

    20. NK

      You started?

    21. AM

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    22. NK

      Sure?

    23. AM

      Yes.

    24. NK

      Okay.

    25. RS

      Sorry, we s- I wouldn't mind a... Is it possible to get fresh lime soda?

    26. NK

      Yeah, of course.

    27. RS

      If, if that's-

    28. NK

      Yeah

    29. RS

      ... if that's doable.

    30. NK

      Uh.

  2. 6:04 – 12:20

    Foundery: India's consumer brand accelerator

    1. RS

      I would-

    2. NK

      We, we'd love to come

    3. RS

      ... you would-

    4. NK

      I mean, that's like music

    5. RS

      ... I would love it.

    6. NK

      I would like music.

    7. RS

      You would, I will have to-

    8. NK

      Pass out in excitement

    9. RS

      ... if, if you get her involved, Nikhil, I won't be able to get her back home.

    10. NK

      [laughs]

    11. RS

      And that's-

    12. NK

      Yeah.

    13. RS

      I mean, you've just described-

    14. NK

      Yeah

    15. RS

      ... something that is probably her dream. [laughs]

    16. NK

      Yeah. And you know for-

    17. AM

      It's something that I've been thinking about myself.

    18. NK

      Yeah. Kiran's gonna be there for a few days.

    19. AM

      Yeah.

    20. NK

      I've convinced-

    21. AM

      Oh, so you're bringing people to ki-

    22. NK

      Like take classes

    23. AM

      ... into that.

    24. RS

      Yeah.

    25. NK

      Yeah.

    26. AM

      Yeah.

    27. RS

      Have you, and have you funded it... If you don't mind me asking, you funded it yourself?

    28. NK

      Yeah.

    29. RS

      Yeah.

    30. NK

      Yeah.

  3. 12:20 – 18:05

    Storytelling as a leadership superpower

    1. NK

      to become the Prime Minister of England, you have to be good at storytelling

    2. RS

      Yeah, that's nice of you to say. That's nice of you to say. I-

    3. NK

      At your age

    4. RS

      At my age... Look, uh, y- look, and I think, obviously, you have to be able to communicate reasonably well f- i- in politics. I think different times require different types of communication. Then the pandemic struck, and so that was my introduction to the country. So I was doing... A, I was doing something that I was very comfortable in, which was economic policy, but that time I think was atypical, Nikhil, because... And I can't- I don't know what it was like here, but i- i- in, in, in the UK, and same, similar in the US and other places, everyone just watched the government press conference every evening

    5. NK

      Mm.

    6. RS

      Because people couldn't leave their homes as mu-

    7. NK

      Mm

    8. RS

      ... everyone was at home and everyone was worried

    9. AM

      Scared

    10. RS

      And so people, in a way that they haven't done for decades, most of the country just sat down at 5 or 6:00 or whatever ti- I think it was 5:00 we did these things, and, and, and then there would be a different minister every day on the TV talking to the country. And that was my introduction to the country. And it suited me, 'cause it didn't- you didn't need to be a brilliant storyteller-

    11. NK

      Mm

    12. RS

      ... for what people wanted. What they wanted was-

    13. AM

      A clear communicator

    14. RS

      ... yeah, they wanted someone who could explain things clearly, provide reassurance, and then do these things that would help them, and e- and explain, you know, what we were doing economically, how it was gonna benefit them, and with a hopefully reassuring tone. And you had this- you had a captive audience who were hungry for that information, and so it probably suited my style.

    15. NK

      Mm.

    16. RS

      And then actually that, you know, once politics gets back to normal and no one is tuning in for half an hour, with a slightly more sympathetic bias as they're listening to you, [laughs] uh, that's when actually, if you're able to communicate with storytelling, it would've served me better actually.

    17. NK

      I watched a lot of your interviews. There aren't many. I think you guys have done very few interviews.

    18. RS

      You, you mean together, or?

    19. NK

      Together, there are one or two, I think.

    20. RS

      There's very-

    21. NK

      The Stanford one

    22. AM

      I don't... Yes

    23. RS

      Yeah

    24. AM

      We've done the Stanford speech

    25. RS

      Stanford, yeah

    26. AM

      ... and that's it

    27. NK

      One About maths

    28. RS

      And, yes.

    29. AM

      Yes. That's the-

    30. RS

      Yeah, that's a newer thing for us-

  4. 18:05 – 24:04

    Parents' pharmacy inspired political career

    1. RS

      or, "Are you Dr. Sunak's son?" And I'd say, "Yes." And then they would proceed to tell me some lovely story about my mum and dad.

    2. NK

      Mm.

    3. RS

      They'd say, "Oh..." And it would invariably be something that-... either or both of them had done to them, or their parents, or their grandparents, or their kids. And I- you just got this repeatedly, and the same, uh, the same thing would happen if we were out at the weekend or shopping. And, uh, and, and I, and, and I came to realize that it was possible for just one person or two people as individuals to have this quite strong impact in their community, and the way that you could touch so many people's lives and make a difference to them. And I thought that was inspiring. And so that was my motivation for becoming a politician. Because in the UK, our districts, our constituencies are small-

    4. NK

      Right

    5. RS

      ... and it's, it's very retail, right?

    6. NK

      Mm.

    7. RS

      So you are... And I... You know, even when you're prime minister, you're still doing that. You're, you're conducting... They're still called, they're called surgeries.

    8. NK

      Yeah.

    9. RS

      You know, you have a surgery as an MP-

    10. NK

      Mm

    11. RS

      ... people come and see you with their problems, you help them. And, and you're out in, embedded in your local community. And I get a lot of fulfillment from that. And actually, one of the things, having left Downing Street, that I get to do more of is that aspect of the job, having stayed as an MP.

    12. AM

      That's in North Yorkshire. That's why our home-

    13. NK

      Yeah

    14. RS

      Yeah

    15. AM

      ... is in North Yorkshire.

    16. RS

      So that-

    17. NK

      I Googled it. It looks really pretty.

    18. RS

      It's very pretty.

    19. NK

      It's very green and-

    20. AM

      You must come and visit.

    21. RS

      It's very green.

    22. NK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    23. RS

      Yeah. You sh- you'd like it. Yeah, it's-

    24. AM

      Actually, Kiran also... Sadly John passed away, but that was on their list, 'cause it's-

    25. RS

      Yeah

    26. AM

      ... depending on which train you take, it's on the way to Scotland.

    27. RS

      Yeah, it's on the way up to Scotland.

    28. NK

      Right.

    29. AM

      Yeah.

    30. RS

      It's, um... Yeah, it's a fiercely independent people in Yorkshire, and it's, uh... But it's stunning rural England. Um, I represent more sheep than people.

  5. 24:04 – 30:05

    Educating children in the AI era

    1. RS

      it. I, I think there's just an incredible amount of uncertainty about exactly-

    2. AM

      Mm

    3. RS

      ... how this is all gonna work out. So you-

    4. NK

      Would you send your daughters to an engineering college today?

    5. RS

      I think, you know, would I send them to Nigeria? Yeah, I mean, now look, uh, I-

    6. AM

      If it's the int-

    7. RS

      They're so young

    8. AM

      If, if that's, if that's their passion

    9. RS

      If that's what they were passionate about. Um, and look, I'm not as familiar with-

    10. AM

      W-

    11. RS

      ... Indian education-

    12. AM

      Right

    13. RS

      ... system versus UK or, or US, but-

    14. AM

      And, and that's the point I was trying to make, Nikhil.

    15. RS

      Mm.

    16. AM

      Like, I thought if you're a fairly good student, you went, you have to be a doc- a doctor or an engineer.

    17. RS

      Mm.

    18. AM

      Uh, yeah, a doctor or an engineer, and I didn't wanna be either of those, right?

    19. RS

      Mm. But we're-

    20. AM

      Whereas-

    21. RS

      ... we're not quite at the... They's, they're not old enough yet, where I'm sitting there going, "If they were engineers, well, should they do more, um, electrical engineering?" 'Cause hardware's [laughs] more important than, um, you know, computer science or something. I, you know, I'm not at that level with them, and nor, no, neither of us are. But I think what, one thing, some things that are starting to become clearer about this AI world is you can almost break down, I think about it, you, you can break down most jobs into a set of tasks.

    22. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    23. RS

      Right? Like, the, all of our jobs are a set of tasks, and we've talked about this, right?

    24. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    25. RS

      And, and there's, there's bits that AI is clearly going to be very good at, and then there's bits that it probably won't be. And you just need to make sure that your education is not so narrow, that it gives you the breadth, these horiz- what I, these horizontal skills. A- and it's things like critical thinking.

    26. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    27. RS

      It's, it's kinda knowing what question to ask the model. The model will always have more knowledge than you, but you, you, you need to know how to get the best out of it, and that comes from critical thinking, reasoning, judgment, being able to evaluate the answer-

    28. AM

      Mm

    29. RS

      ... that comes back, and then go back. I... That, that is a set of skill. I mean, liberal arts education in, in the US is one that focuses on that type of horizontal thinking. So I would... I... That, to me, I think is, is as our kids are thinking, whether it's engineering or economics or whatever, having some breadth-

    30. AM

      To have the breadth

  6. 30:05 – 36:17

    Leaning into human skills over AI

    1. AM

      but, but I think to me, those qualities are compassion-

    2. RS

      Becomes... Yeah, becomes more important, less-

    3. AM

      Right

    4. RS

      ... not less important. Yeah.

    5. AM

      Compassion and intuition and things like that. Now, you can tell me whether AI can learn all of that, maybe in time, AGI, et cetera, but-Let's lean into those human skills. Um, and those are not... And I think schools are changing. Schools, because I now have been, uh, uh, in one shape or form, I an- I have been a part of the Indian education system, the US education system, and the British education system

    6. RS

      Through the kids, yeah

    7. AM

      ... through the kids. And, um, in all of these places, I see it is changing, Nikhil. It was not, it's not like when I was growing up, right? Um-

    8. RS

      But I mean, it-

    9. AM

      But is it changing fast enough? That's a question

    10. RS

      Yeah. I think that is the key, right? And it's, and I think because probably 'cause the same with you, like we're closer to the technology development.

    11. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    12. RS

      Like, so we see what's happening there, and the government always moves slower [laughs] than that, even at the best of times. And changing whole systems like an education system takes time.

    13. AM

      Mm.

    14. RS

      But my, my general, and I was saying this, uh, you know, last week at AI Summit, right? That you, what political leaders can't afford to do is treat AI like tomorrow's problem. It is an action this day issue.

    15. AM

      Mm.

    16. RS

      And, and, and there probably is not much, I mean, you don't... I don't think you see a huge amount of debate and discussion about changing the education system, um, which then needs to-

    17. NK

      So in a way we are saying being a generalist is better than being an expert?

    18. AM

      Uh, yeah. I mean, so interesting-

    19. RS

      Go

    20. AM

      ... uh, 'cause I would think that you would say, no, you, you need to build deep skills in a couple of things.

    21. RS

      I think you, you, so I, I think this is, yeah. [laughs] So we might not say the same thing. I dunno. I, so-

    22. AM

      And I would use a different word for generalist.

    23. RS

      Yeah

    24. AM

      I would say breadth.

    25. RS

      I think the, I think the set of what- the horizontal skills-

    26. AM

      Mm-hmm

    27. RS

      ... you need those which are not domain specific, right? The critical reasoning, thinking, judgment, all those human-centric skills that we just talked about-

    28. AM

      Mm

    29. RS

      ... empathy, feedback, dispute, regula- um, uh-

    30. AM

      Regulation, yeah

  7. 36:17 – 42:10

    How Rishi and Akshata decide differently

    1. RS

      Exactly.

    2. AM

      Right? So for example, if there's a, a, a something to do with, with our children, we'll kind of know what, how we... We know in fact what the answer is-

    3. RS

      We know what we're solving for

    4. AM

      What we're solving for, that's right. But-

    5. RS

      But then-

    6. AM

      I will do it-

    7. RS

      ... you'll come at it, the way you will come at it and the way I will come at it-

    8. AM

      Ex- exact approach

    9. RS

      ... will be... Yeah, approach, our starting point will be different.

    10. AM

      Mm.

    11. RS

      Right?

    12. NK

      How is it different?

    13. AM

      You go and then I'll go.

    14. RS

      Uh, well, I, look, I, I will probably come at it from a more analytical, more practical-

    15. AM

      Process-oriented-

    16. RS

      Process-oriented

    17. AM

      ... structured.

    18. RS

      Well, stru- that's how-

    19. AM

      Like even in this interview, he's giving me the evil eye when I'm, like, a bit all over the place.

    20. RS

      [laughs]

    21. AM

      And he's like, "No, that wasn't the question." [laughs]

    22. NK

      I didn't catch it.

    23. RS

      No, I, I-

    24. AM

      I know the evil eye. [laughs]

    25. RS

      [laughs]

    26. NK

      Can you show us?

    27. RS

      No, I can't. [laughs]

    28. AM

      A subtle evil eye. [laughs]

    29. RS

      I didn't think I was doing that. No.

    30. AM

      Only when I-

  8. 42:10 – 48:03

    Goldman Sachs to Prime Minister journey

    1. NK

      from going from being a person who was at Goldman Sachs to becoming the Prime Minister of UK? I know it's a big question.

    2. RS

      It's a big question.

    3. AM

      Mm.

    4. NK

      Yeah. [laughs]

    5. RS

      Um, well, I think the, the first thing to say, it was the-... journey that I had imagined

    6. NK

      Mm-hmm

    7. RS

      ... even if it happened far faster than I would have imagined. Because I, you know, I'm one of these people who thinks if, you know, if you want to go into politics, you are far better off having done something first. That's my view. Uh, and I think that because, A, A, you bring a set of skills and experience about something else into the political arena, which is just a good thing, and you have that knowledge which you can contribute. But also from a mi-

    8. NK

      And an understanding of the real world.

    9. RS

      Yeah. Yeah, with this-

    10. NK

      Yeah

    11. RS

      ... uh, I think... Oh, actually you're saying what I think I'm about to say, which is-

    12. NK

      Oh, sorry.

    13. RS

      No, no, no, I think it's, it's the same thing

    14. NK

      Completing each other's sentences.

    15. RS

      [laughs] No, which is it's a slightly different mindset to how you approach things, 'cause if you've spent your entire life in politics, you tend to see everything with a political lens. You, you see the politics in every situation or every problem, whereas if you've done something else first and you've just had a normal experience in doing business, teaching, medicine, whatever it is, armed forces, uh, then you come into politics, you don't see the life through a political prism, and I think that is better. So for those reasons, I think doing something else first is, is the right way to do it. Certainly, that's what I wanted to do. So in that sense, the, the career path was one that I had broadly thought about, um, obviously it happened, happened a lot, a lot quicker. And I think the other thing which was important to me, which we talked about a lot at Stanford, was I, financial independence and financial-

    16. NK

      Mm

    17. RS

      ... security was important to me as a precondition to going into public service.

    18. NK

      Doesn't politics afford that?

    19. RS

      Sorry?

    20. NK

      Politics gives you financial security as well, right?

    21. RS

      Uh, de- I mean, why, why do you say that?

    22. NK

      Aren't British politicians paid well?

    23. RS

      They are paid well by average wage standards. So, you know, there's a body that sets politicians' wages relative to a set of professional classes. So in the... If you look at what the average person in the UK earns, politicians are, are, are paid considerably more than, more than that. But for the financial security that I wanted-

    24. NK

      Yeah.

    25. RS

      Right? Everyone has their own view, right?

    26. NK

      Yeah, yeah. No, I hear you.

    27. RS

      For financial se-

    28. NK

      For somebody who went to Stanford-

    29. RS

      Yeah

    30. NK

      ... probably not from that benchmark.

  9. 48:03 – 54:15

    Patience as an underrated competitive advantage

    1. RS

      For me, yes.

    2. NK

      So now what happens after having-

    3. RS

      After you've done this thing? Yeah. So-

    4. NK

      Mm

    5. RS

      ... you know-

    6. NK

      We've had lots of incredibly-

    7. RS

      Talked about this

    8. NK

      ... uh, interesting discussions.

    9. RS

      Yeah. I think probably the slightly discomforting thing for me, which Akshata's helped me get more comfortable with, is for the first time in my life, I'm, I, I don't n- you know, I don't know what the, the next-

    10. NK

      Next thing

    11. RS

      ... the next thing is.

    12. NK

      What to work towards.

    13. RS

      What, what I'm not working towards a-

    14. NK

      Like, what specific thing to work

    15. RS

      ... specific thing. Right.

    16. NK

      Will the high ever be the same if... I mean, you were at the pinnacle of-

    17. RS

      ... validation and importance- Yeah ... in society.

    18. AM

      Mm.

    19. RS

      I don't think any amount of money will get you there.

    20. AM

      Mm.

    21. RS

      So what is the high that makes you feel like relatively higher than the previous high? Yeah. I- So-

    22. AM

      So-

    23. RS

      Go on.

    24. AM

      So for me, and I think the same for you, or you're seeing that more now, having this somewhat of a blank canvas is exciting-

    25. RS

      Yeah

    26. AM

      ... because I love trying out different things. I love... You know, we were talking earlier about risk-taking, et cetera. Not taking risk for the sake of a risk, but having a blank canvas, or some people might say starting over again, right?

    27. RS

      Mm.

    28. AM

      Um, that's quite exciting.

    29. RS

      Mm.

    30. AM

      Because also we have had, both of us, what feels like the... Because we've been together for now 20 years, these incredibly meaningful, um, uh, just incredible experiences. If... So w- w- what's... W- we have a blank canvas, but I would like to think we have wisdom with it, and we have... We're, we're lucky. We, we are able to do things that interest us, that fuel our passions. Um, so I would say that's the first thing. The, uh... I, I don't know if that's a high or not, but it's exciting to have that blank canvas.

  10. 54:15 – 1:00:06

    Entering politics: resilience, patience, service

    1. RS

      feel?

    2. AM

      Responsibility, yeah.

    3. RS

      Yeah. So, you know, for someone who's entering into politics, you know, I... Like, I get asked a similar question. You know, for young people who are thinking about politics, you know, I say to them, "There's... You need to be resilient, you need to be patient, and you need to be motivated by public service more than ambition."

    4. AM

      At, at some level.

    5. RS

      [laughs] So those are the-I think the things that you, you need to make sure that you have-

    6. AM

      What's under that, though? The day you figured you're becoming Prime Minister, did you sit at home and you're like, "This happened"? [laughs]

    7. RS

      I didn't have time.

    8. AM

      [laughs]

    9. RS

      N- Nik- Nikhil, I, I, yeah. I-

    10. AM

      [laughs] It has to be a big thing, right?

    11. RS

      Yeah, I... You know what? It, it, it, for me, the circumstances in which I became Prime Minister, it was so sudden-

    12. AM

      Mm

    13. RS

      ... I didn't have time to-

    14. AM

      Mm

    15. RS

      ... to do m- much of that. I- we were in different places that weekend, funnily enough.

    16. AM

      Yeah, I was in Yorkshire and you were in London.

    17. RS

      I was in London. I was, I was, one minute I was with our two kids at TGI Fridays in bowling. I'd just lost a quite bruising leadership election to, to Liz Truss, and I was emotionally starting to look forward to this next chapter of my life, spending time with the kids, thinking about what we were gonna do next. Uh, and so I physically and emotionally [laughs] was in a completely different place. And then all of a sudden this thing happened that I was not, uh, prepared for-

    18. AM

      Thinking actively about

    19. RS

      ... actively, uh, emotionally or, or practically, and it happened just so quickly. And so you didn't have time. And then I, you know, it was a battlefield promotion, right?

    20. AM

      Mm.

    21. RS

      And there was, you know, a huge number of things that I had to deal with immediately.

    22. AM

      Mm.

    23. RS

      So it didn't, I didn't really get to have that type of moment.

    24. AM

      I think we had one call with your parents.

    25. RS

      Yeah.

    26. AM

      'Cause the, it was, so it was Rishi's mother's 70th birthday that day. It was our youngest daughter's 10th birthday, and it was also Diwali.

    27. RS

      Around all those days that it was happening, yeah.

    28. AM

      Yeah. And so we had one phone call with your parents, and that was-

    29. RS

      Yeah, and that was that

    30. AM

      ... kind of it, I think.

  11. 1:00:06 – 1:06:51

    Staying unapologetically Indian in British politics

    1. RS

      was a kind of, "Oh, okay," and then we move on, and they'll be upset with me about this or that. But they're not because, [laughs] you know, I didn't like what you said here or what you did there.

    2. AM

      Yeah. And that's why, you know, like-

    3. RS

      But not bec- not, not because you, you know, you let a Diwali diya outside the door or-

    4. AM

      Correct. Even, like, lighting the diyas outside Downing Street

    5. RS

      ... or you, or you went back to the temple last weekend or something, you know?

    6. AM

      I know how it felt so meaningful to us, it was so meaningful to our communities, but we didn't even second-guess it because it felt so natural, and no one made us feel like we should second-guess it-

    7. RS

      Yeah

    8. AM

      ... if that makes sense, right? Like, we didn't feel uncomfortable at all, and I think that's the beauty of the UK is, is the, uh, your ability to-

    9. RS

      If I-

    10. AM

      ... to genuinely believe in what you do.

    11. RS

      It was a, it was a very nice moment'cause when you become Prime Minister, you, you, you have, you have to go see the, the monarch, who was the King, who had recently become King, and, um, he informally invites you to form a, a government, right?

    12. NK

      Mm-hmm.

    13. RS

      That's, that's how the process works. And so I go along to see him before I go to Downing Street, and, um, you know, it was a... And that was a special moment. You know, he's head of the Church of England, as, as well as, uh, being the King and the monarch and head of state, but has always been someone who's talked about being a defender of faith-

    14. NK

      Mm

    15. RS

      ... not just the faith, in, in general. But the... And here I was, first British Asian, you know, Hindu Prime Minister of the UK. Um, but the nice thing was, you know, we had tea in the after- you know, it was tea in the afternoon. But because it, it was Diwali, and he's someone who's always been very engaged and supportive of the British Asian community-

    16. NK

      Mm

    17. RS

      ... in the UK, uh, and he, there were Diwali mithai. So it was not like kind of tea and scones, [laughs] you know, tea and, um, and, and mithai that he'd organized. Um, which was a really lovely-

    18. NK

      Mm

    19. RS

      ... you know, kind of relatively unremarked moment. Uh, and it, I just, to me, I thought that was a-

    20. NK

      How are they?

    21. RS

      How are?

    22. NK

      The monarchy.

    23. RS

      Uh, well, you know, we have this, um-

    24. NK

      I've, I've met them a few times. I'm in that British Asian trust, and-

    25. RS

      Yeah.

    26. AM

      Yes, yes

    27. NK

      ... I also have a colleague of mine who used to be the ex-chief of staff for, uh, Prince Charles.

    28. AM

      Mm.

    29. NK

      King Charles.

    30. RS

      King Charles.

  12. 1:06:51 – 1:12:20

    Life inside 10 Downing Street

    1. AM

      in this community.

    2. RS

      Living in.

    3. AM

      Yeah.

    4. RS

      Now, it has its downsides, obviously. You, the, my, our flat door-You know, Downing Street is ve- much smaller than people realize.

    5. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RS

      It's very kinda higgledy-piggledy-

    7. AM

      Yeah

    8. RS

      ... in, in like offices and flat. So you'd open our front door to our flat-

    9. AM

      Yeah

    10. RS

      ... and the Downing Street Policy Unit breakout area-

    11. AM

      Mm

    12. RS

      ... is literally- [laughs]

    13. AM

      Yes

    14. RS

      ... you open the door and there's people sitting there having a meeting.

    15. AM

      They, they witnessed quite a few tantrums. [laughs]

    16. RS

      Uh, so yeah, so like, you know, like, the kids are screaming on your way in, like, "Good morning," and, you know. [laughs]

    17. AM

      Yeah.

    18. RS

      So-

    19. AM

      Yeah

    20. RS

      ... while they're trying to figure something out. So, you know, those are some, you know, kind of day-to-day aspects of it, um, that you, you know, you get, that you get used to. But for us, as I said, the transition was, we hadn't got used to a lot of that, uh, in any case.

    21. NK

      Who was the smartest person you think you met while you were in office?

    22. AM

      Who was the smartest?

    23. NK

      Both of you. And what did you take away? I find this very, very attractive that you get to meet-

    24. AM

      So many interesting, different types of people.

    25. NK

      Yeah, I would just say, like, really, really smart people or really, really accomplished people, which is not necessarily the same as being smart.

    26. AM

      Yeah.

    27. RS

      Yeah.

    28. NK

      But really successful people.

    29. AM

      Well, uh, we have to think about that, but I'll... Can I just talk about the smart?

    30. NK

      Mm-hmm.

  13. 1:12:20 – 1:18:32

    AI sovereignty and global trade tensions

    1. RS

      you know, really striking.

    2. NK

      Yeah.

    3. RS

      Just being in the hall, talking to people, such optimism about this-

    4. NK

      Mm-hmm

    5. RS

      ... which is not what you find everywhere.

    6. NK

      Yeah.

    7. RS

      And particularly in the West, where there is more anxiety about AI. In India, there's optimism and a, a- and excitement and trust.

    8. NK

      Mm.

    9. RS

      And that is a, an advantage. Then you also saw the, it was your-

    10. NK

      He's incredibly impressive, isn't he? The Prime Minister?

    11. RS

      Yes. Yeah, he's very impressive. I mean, look, I, I used to, uh, you know, talk to him about this when we were, when I was in office. And, you know, he's been talking about the India stack for a long time.

    12. NK

      Do you guys speak in Hindi or English?

    13. RS

      English. 'Cause my Hindi is not good enough to do work. [laughs] I would not trust it to do any, uh, serious work-

    14. AM

      Policy in Hindi. [laughs]

    15. RS

      ... uh, any serious work with. Um-Uh, sadly. Uh, but no, he's someone who's understood the importance of technology, the importance of the-

    16. NK

      Mm-hmm

    17. RS

      ... tech stack. And obviously you see the announcement from Sarvam, which was-

    18. NK

      Mm-hmm

    19. RS

      ... superb. I mean, DPI, you know, Aadhaar, and UPI-

    20. NK

      Mm-hmm

    21. RS

      ... and now these, uh, the Ayushman Bharat health accounts.

    22. NK

      Yeah.

    23. RS

      You put all that together, the ability to deploy AI applications to over a billion people-

    24. NK

      Mm-hmm

    25. RS

      ... is, uh, is, is again, distinctive-

    26. NK

      Mm

    27. RS

      ... advantage for India. So, you know, I, all the ingredients are there.

    28. NK

      Do you believe sovereign AI has a use case?

    29. RS

      Sovereign AI?

    30. NK

      Mm-hmm. Like what Sarvam was trying to build.

  14. 1:18:32 – 1:24:38

    De-globalisation and supply chain resilience

    1. RS

      We're in a world where countries have weaponized supply chains.

    2. NK

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RS

      There's more geopolitical-

    4. NK

      Mm

    5. RS

      ... competition, and you, you can't afford not to have resilience. And, but-

    6. NK

      Do you think the world will continue to move in this direction, where we're kind of like, I don't know if I can call it de-globalisation, where everybody-

    7. RS

      It's de-risking.

    8. NK

      Mm.

    9. RS

      It's de-risking. I, I think, you know, if you think about supply chain, it used to be all about just in time.

    10. NK

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RS

      Physical supply chain used to be all about just in time, and now it's about just in case.

    12. NK

      But do you mean how countries now operate on their own-

    13. RS

      Yeah

    14. NK

      ... versus the kind of coming together-

    15. RS

      And, yeah

    16. NK

      ... global order? There used to be like-I think consensus building-

    17. SP

      Yeah

    18. NK

      ... maybe up until five years ago.

    19. SP

      Mm.

    20. NK

      Right now it seems to be everybody for themselves.

    21. SP

      For their own. Yeah.

    22. RS

      But I, I think it-

    23. SP

      Yeah

    24. RS

      ... it's not as stark as that-

    25. NK

      Mm

    26. RS

      ... in the sense that you have to be more resilient, right?

    27. NK

      Yeah.

    28. RS

      You have to think about sovereignty, because that multilateral rules-based system-

    29. NK

      Yeah

    30. RS

      ... much as it existed, it wasn't-

  15. 1:24:38 – 1:31:17

    Free trade, tariffs, and level playing fields

    1. NK

      Birmingham was the center of innovation.

    2. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. NK

      A lot of the patents that were being created in the world happened in that one tiny place. I don't remember where I read this, but they were making a case for how Birmingham and the local economy shut down to foreign products, so the industry locally could thrive. And when they came up to scale and came up to a certain quality, they opened up all over again.

    4. RS

      Yeah. There, there's a, there's an infant industry argument-

    5. NK

      Yeah

    6. RS

      ... um, that has... You know, the, the, as I said, every stage, every country will have a different approach to this.

    7. NK

      Mm.

    8. RS

      But, you know, in general between developed countries where there is a similarity in approach-Fr- freer trade is, is better-

    9. NK

      Mm-hmm

    10. RS

      ... in, uh, in my view. Uh, as a... The key is, is it being done in a fair way where there's a level playing field? And particular with China, you know, that has not been the case, um, which is, which is a problem, and I think will increasingly become a problem because more and more countries are having to deal with the Chinese development model, which is very export-oriented, where that, to your point, uh, they don't prioritize domestic consumption, they prioritize exports. Uh, and then lots of countries now are absorbing a huge amount of Chinese imports. Um, and that is-

    11. NK

      Including India

    12. RS

      ... Includ- uh, the rest of the world. If you look at what's happened, you know, the US obviously has slowed that down.

    13. NK

      Mm-hmm.

    14. RS

      Chinese exports, though, and the Chinese trade surplus is at a record high as a percentage of global GDP, so all those exports are going to all these other countries. So I think there'll be increasing tension with these other countries. You know, the EU has already put on tariffs on, on Chinese EVs. So I think, I think you will, you will see that. But look, this focus on, as to your point, though, about your question about, you know, what happens with this new, new president, where do things reset to? COVID also was the clarifying-

    15. NK

      Mm

    16. RS

      ... moment that many of us lived through in government that made us all focus about supply chains and the resilience of those supply chains, so that... You don't forget that, and that changes your approach. I think those people who worry about national security were nervous around Huawei telecoms equipment. That was the other big event that happened while I was in government, where we went through a process of deciding that we weren't going to rely on Chinese telecoms equipment, and that is before AI, uh, we were focused on that, and that was an expensive and disruptive decision for many countries to take. These things stay, right? Regardless who the US president is or British Prime Minister-

    17. NK

      Yeah

    18. RS

      ... you know, those are structural features that now need to in- be incorporated in, into your thinking.

    19. NK

      I'm not gonna talk to Akshata like she's Rishi's wife or Narayana Murthy's-

    20. AM

      Thank you

    21. NK

      ... daughter.

    22. AM

      [laughs]

    23. NK

      Uh, I think you've been dealt, if this were a poker game-

    24. AM

      Yeah

    25. NK

      ... a really hard set of cards.

    26. AM

      I don't play poker, so I will-

    27. NK

      [laughs]

    28. AM

      ... I'll follow along [laughs] as much as I can.

    29. RS

      I can, I can, I can tran- I can translate for you.

    30. AM

      I, I, um... But, sure, I get, I, I, I-

  16. 1:31:17 – 1:37:53

    Akshata's identity beyond famous family

    1. AM

      success. I'm not saying it was a failure, but it took a long time. So I grew up very much being my own person, um, partly my thinking, partly circumstances.And, and by the time Infosys became, uh, more well known, I was studying in the US, and, uh, that also was a slightly unorthodox choice because, um, I, I guess I could have gone into engineering, um, in India, uh, but that wasn't my passion. And I've always valued breadth, um, and the liberal arts education offered that, and that was on the West Coast in California, so it was far away somewhat. And, uh, and always made my professional decisions. You know, I, I, I got the jobs I did on my own. I, I, I pursued opportunities that I created. Um, and so while I w- was hugely proud of my father, I was also used to standing on my own two feet, right? And then I met Rishi, um, and this has nothing to do with, uh, my parents' success, but he reminded me a lot of my dad because he too, like my father, had this huge passion for his country. Mm-hmm. And, and I remember one of the things, Rish, you said very early on, we were talking about how your parents' journey to the UK had transformed your family's life and, and then, you know, they of course work really hard to provide you with this education, and you would one day hope to grow up and i- in your own way create a, a, a platform, uh, create opportunities for lots of other young Rishis to have, um, boys and girls to have these kinds of opportunities. Um, so that reminded me a lot of my dad. Um, and so I was, uh, again, y- y- y- you know, Rishi wasn't in the plan for many reasons, but I [laughs] i- it, it... But it was inspiring to me. And so for me, my dad has always been someone, yes, he's been successful, he's done really well, et cetera, but to me, he's been an inspiring figure, and that's what I've taken away from him and said, "How can I then introduce that in my own life through my own journey?" And by the way, I'm not a technologist. I'm not an engineer. And I never felt bad about that because I... It was very clear to me from very early on, I'm gonna carve my own path. And so y- absolutely am I... And, and look, you know, Rishi and I got together, et cetera. Rishi became PM. But even then, that's what I was talking to you about lessons at 10, right? Rishi's PM, he does his thing. I would never interfere in his role, in his job. But I was very clear that I was also going to, in some way- Mm-hmm ... thank you. Mm-hmm. For... Create my own path- Mm-hmm ... and do something that I deeply cared about. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and so I guess I'm, I'm... I didn't feel the pressure in the same way. Right. Um, and so I don't, for lack of a better term, I don't have a chip on my shoulder about it. Mm. I think I feel so- Have it. Thank you. I feel quite grateful that I've had, through, for many different reasons, access to so many opportunities, and every time I'm thinking, "How can I make it my own?" And that's been something from when I was very young. So forget Rishi and your dad. Where does Akshata's validation come from? Mm. So one of my values, I have three values, um, and we've spoken about some of those things. Um, compassion, curiosity, and personal integrity. And personal integrity to me is, I define it, as being authentic to who I am. Others may not like it. Others may not understand it. But if it may... If it sits well inside of me, you know, we're talking earlier about intuition, right? I'm, I, I lean into my intuition more than, than average, certainly between the two of us. Certainly more than me. [laughs] I, I'm, I'm more on the intuitive side. Where does... I think my... Look, I'm not going to say I'm holier than thou, and I don't seek validation. Of course not. Mm-hmm. All of us do. I, I really care about having impact, right? So what does that mean? Um, you know, when we apply to Stanford, they ask you to write this essay, and, and even today, they still ask you to write the same essay. It's called, at least one of the few essays you have to write, um, it... The question is, what matters most to you and why? And, um, I remember writing about, um, rain in Mumbai, actually. Um, because around that time, I was 23, um, we were... I haven't li- I haven't sort of spent a long time in Mumbai in a lo- in, in a little while, but you know, the monsoon can be quite heavy. And for those of us who have a roof over our heads, we can observe the monsoon and, um, say, "Oh, that's pleasant." Um, but for those of us who don't, it's less pleasant. And so I wrote about equality and how do I help create an, a society where there is more equality. Um, but- Equality of wealth? Not... So equality of opportunity at least. Um- Not outcome. Not outcome. And look, I was 23, hugely idealistic, and, and I really wanted to do, do something that helped society in some way, the broader society. And I'd seen my parents through, my dad through Infosys, and then my mother through the Infosys Foundation marry that impactFrom capitalism to philanthropy, and I was, I, I... That really moved me

    2. RS

      And it's what we used to-

    3. AM

      And it's what we used to discuss a lot about-

    4. RS

      ... talk about when we were at Stanford

    5. AM

      ... even at Stanford.

    6. RS

      And we'd have these big... Not big, but we'd have these debates, right, about

  17. 1:37:53 – 1:44:04

    Validation through impact, not inheritance

    1. RS

      CSR and-

    2. AM

      Yeah. And I, I like it-

    3. RS

      I, I, I come at it from a bit more of a traditionally capitalist economic-

    4. AM

      Capitalistic eco-

    5. RS

      [laughs] Economic way

    6. AM

      ... economic argument. Yeah.

    7. RS

      And then-

    8. AM

      And, and, you know-

    9. RS

      And actually stood out for, again, especially in a business school environment, she... You always stood out 'cause you were always like the one person [laughs] in whatever study group or class-

    10. AM

      Well, how does it impact society?

    11. RS

      And, you know, do-

    12. AM

      How does it impact the most vulnerable people?

    13. RS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    14. AM

      How does it, uh-

    15. NK

      I think it's all validation. If one person gets validation through a capitalistic-

    16. AM

      Yeah

    17. NK

      ... win-

    18. AM

      Yeah

    19. NK

      ... another gets it through a moralistic win or an altruistic win.

    20. AM

      Mm. Mm.

    21. NK

      It's all validation.

    22. AM

      No, fair enough. You're abs- yeah.

    23. NK

      I feel like we're all seeking the same height.

    24. AM

      Yeah.

    25. NK

      The pathway is different.

    26. RS

      Different. Yeah.

    27. AM

      Yeah.

    28. RS

      Yeah. No, I think that's-

    29. AM

      Yeah. No, fair enough

    30. RS

      ... that's fair.

  18. 1:44:04 – 1:50:04

    Finding balance between desire and austerity

    1. AM

      but equally you don't shun, um, uh, austerity.

    2. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AM

      Right? You, you embrace both-

    4. RS

      Mm-hmm

    5. AM

      ... in a way because what comes out of that, that, um, those two extremes comes the middle path. And, uh, Anushka was saying this the other day. She, uh, she's our youngest daughter, she's 13. She said the R- the Romans, I hope, because I don't know this philosophy as well as she does. She, she was talking about the stoics versus the epicureans.

    6. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AM

      The epicureans, i- are all about-

    8. RS

      More Greek than Romans, I think.

    9. AM

      More Greek, actually.

    10. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. AM

      Exactly. The, the epicureans embraced desire-

    12. RS

      Mm-hmm

    13. AM

      ... and, and amusement.

    14. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AM

      Um, and the stoics somewhat shun that. But actually the, the happy place is somewhere in the middle, and it's not, you're not on the moral high ground if you think you are a stoic versus an epicurean, and that's the balance, right? So I have always chased, for lack of a better word, that balance.

    16. RS

      Mm.

    17. AM

      And so even in the highs of highs of my parents' success, and they've had their highs and their lows like any-

    18. RS

      Mm-hmm

    19. AM

      ... human being. Even in the highs and hi- and lows of our own life together, I've, I've tried, I don't always succeed, at finding that balance.

    20. RS

      Do you think you need to retain that balance throughout? Or is it okay to allow yourself to drift between both the sides?

    21. AM

      Oh, I, I definitely drift between both.

    22. RS

      Oh.

    23. AM

      And in fact, I remember one of the first things my mother said to me, "Oh, what do you like about Rishi?" And I said, "He, he just allows me to have more fun."

    24. RS

      Mm.

    25. AM

      And we were talking earlier how our parents are d- of dif- you know, my family's more reserved-

    26. RS

      Mm-hmm

    27. AM

      ... um, uh, intellectual, um, uh, quieter. I'm not saying that's bad and one is good, uh, and, but I met Rishi, who was lots of energy and lots of excitement about so many different things and, and so I thought that was amazing.

    28. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. AM

      You know, a, a different way of looking at life. Um, so I've always... I, I haven't, uh, the balance comes from embracing both, I think.

    30. RS

      Yeah.

  19. 1:50:04 – 1:56:42

    Being kind to yourself after failure

    1. RS

      else said this to me. A very successful technology executive said this to me in an early meeting that he had with me in, actually in Downing Street, and he said that, "You're in this position because your ability to make those decisions is on, on average better than most other people."

    2. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RS

      Right? "Your judgment is on average better, or you wouldn't be sitting here, I wouldn't be talking to you. So trust that and have some confidence in it, and, and then, you know, when things don't go right, as long as you're honestly self-reflective about it, recognize good and bad outcomes of the same process, reflect and then think what you can learn from it, take away for the next time." You know, that, you know, that is a very... I mean, it's... I learned how to do that, not perfectly, but because that's helped me.

    4. AM

      Of course you're still learning.

    5. RS

      And you're still learning. But it's, that is, it's a very necessary part of being a good leader.

    6. AM

      No ma-

    7. RS

      It's how you-

    8. AM

      No matter what you do, by the way.

    9. RS

      No matter what you do.

    10. AM

      Right.

    11. RS

      It's not just political leadership. I just... You know, understanding these failures, how to cope with them, how to then turn them into something positive-

    12. AM

      Mm-hmm

    13. RS

      ... so that you grow and it doesn't consume you. 'Cause you can get into a negative spiral after it where it's very damaging. Um-

    14. AM

      I've, um, become, um, really fascinated by this term called metacognition, right?

    15. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    16. AM

      Which is thinking about the thinking.

    17. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. AM

      So look at an outcome and you say, "Okay, outcome X happened. Why did it happen? Why did I behave the way I did? How... Did I deploy my strengths and weaknesses? Why are those my strengths versus these?" Um, and then regulating your thinking, meta regulation, right?

    19. RS

      Mm.

    20. AM

      I thought, I think that is, um, uh, uh, metacognitive regulation, meta... I, I just think that's just a, a fascinating way for where humans are heading.

    21. NK

      I find most words which have meta in the beginning are very interesting.

    22. AM

      Yes. There you go.

    23. RS

      [laughs]

    24. AM

      Exactly. Let's just add metacognition.

    25. RS

      It sound- it sounds good, yeah.

    26. AM

      Metacognitive regulation.

    27. NK

      Yeah. I must say, you both make a really good case for marriage.

    28. AM

      [laughs]

    29. RS

      [laughs]

    30. AM

      That's good to hear-

  20. 1:56:42 – 2:03:03

    Identity, heritage, and the living bridge

    1. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    2. AM

      Because as you rightly said, you know, you're your father's daughter, you're your husband's wife. And so, um, it's, it's got me thinking, you know, what's identity about? H- how do you define yourself? And is it, is it based on where you live, what language you speak, what you eat?

    3. RS

      Mm.

    4. AM

      But we're saying we are different, right? Um, and you know, I've, lately I've been getting a lot of pushback on my accent, right?

    5. RS

      Mm.

    6. AM

      You grew up in Bangalore. Do you understand any of that?

    7. RS

      I won't.

    8. AM

      [laughs]

    9. RS

      Now you're

    10. AM

      Tell them.

    11. RS

      Just like being at home.

    12. AM

      [laughs] Um, anyway, um, I'll come back to that accent thing in a second, actually.

    13. RS

      [laughs]

    14. AM

      Um, but, but I've, I've-

    15. RS

      Does Nikhil speak more like your mum or dad?

    16. AM

      I would assume more like my dad.

    17. RS

      Okay.

    18. AM

      My sort of Canada, right?

    19. RS

      Yeah.

    20. AM

      Yeah.

    21. RS

      Who's my ... Yeah.

    22. AM

      Yeah. Um, so what's... Where do you get your identity from? So, uh, so for me, my identity comes from genuinely having impact, and I'll unpack that. So it's how can I give to the communities in which I live? How can I stay true to my values? How can I honor my heritage? And so whatever we do professionally, um, even how we raise our children, I'm constantly thinking. I'm probably less worried than most about some of the more, I'm not gonna use the word superficial, some of the more tangible concepts of identity, like what food we eat or what language we speak or, um-

    23. RS

      How you dress

    24. AM

      ... or how you dress-

    25. RS

      How you dress

    26. AM

      ... how I sound. Um, but, but w- staying true to your values, staying true to, to what matters most to you, um, you know, that's how I've defined... Oh, thank you. That's how I've defined my identity versus, versus it being trying to match someone else's or trying to meet societal expectations of what identity should be, right? And so like with my accent, for example... Actually, let's take a step back. You k- you know, I remember Rishi and I came to India for the G20, and it was incredibly emotional for me, Nikhil, because I was coming to, to the place where I was raised. I was coming to the place that defined my heritage, of which I'm very proud of. I was coming to a, a place that was my former home, but in a way representing a different home, right? So how, how do you handle that? And that's, that really got me thinking about, well, in a scenario like this, who are you? Are you British or are you Indian? Are you neither? Are you both? And it reminds me of what, uh, I think PM Modi said, I think in 2015, uh, uh, maybe when he was in the UK for that Wembley-

    27. RS

      Oh, when he did the big Wembley

    28. AM

      ... Wembley, um-

    29. RS

      Wembley thing. Yeah

    30. AM

      ... uh, uh, event. And he said, "You know, the Indians who are living in the UK are all part of the living bridge, the Indian diaspora. Um, and, and they connect Britain to India and vice versa." And so I'm but one of the people living on this bridge, you know, the bridge that, you know, when you think of a bridge, it connects two places. It doesn't belong just to one place or the other. So for me, my, when I think deeply about who I am in, in, in the context of, of current day, I am part of that living bridge. I feel incredibly at home in India. I am incredibly emotional about my, um... I use the word emotional because I'm, it, it moves me. My, my heritage. I'm incredibly proud of my heritage, my, um, how I was raised. Um, but I have also had these incredibly meaningful experiences in the UK. That's where we're raising our family, and I am deeply committed to that community as well. So the things that I'm engaging in now, and I'm doing them in areas that mean things to me, so in arts, culture, history, entrepreneurship, um, creativity, uh, these are areas that speak to me and I'm constantly looking at how can I honor-

  21. 2:03:03 – 2:09:05

    Nostalgic Bangalore food and childhood memories

    1. AM

      Dosa Camp.

    2. NK

      Yes.

    3. AM

      Yeah.

    4. NK

      In fourth block.

    5. AM

      Yes. I remember-

    6. NK

      Where everybody went

    7. AM

      ... the day it opened. Uh-huh.

    8. NK

      They put everything in the dosa, from mushrooms-

    9. AM

      Yeah

    10. NK

      ... to baby corn-

    11. AM

      Yeah

    12. NK

      ... to-

    13. AM

      Cheese

    14. NK

      ... whatever you can think of.

    15. AM

      Yeah, yeah.

    16. RS

      Okay.

    17. AM

      Paneer.

    18. RS

      That, uh, ice cream place was presumably not there when you were growing up.

    19. AM

      Corner House.

    20. RS

      Corner House.

    21. NK

      Corner House.

    22. AM

      Yes.

    23. RS

      Oh, it was there?

    24. AM

      Yes.

    25. RS

      Oh, great. Yeah, we go there.

    26. AM

      Yes.

    27. RS

      Yeah.

    28. NK

      I used to eat-

    29. RS

      Our kids love Corner House

    30. NK

      ... they had this thing called Death by Chocolate.

  22. 2:09:05 – 2:16:03

    Why young Indians should enter politics

    1. RS

      happens. It happens when you decide to come inside and be part of the process and take the time to bring it about. N-n-the kind of romantic cinematic notion that it can happen from the outside, being the disruptor with one speech or amazing protest, you know, that it works in the movies. I think it's less about real life, which is why young people should, if they do want to change things for the better, do it through, through government and come into public service and come in, uh, come into politics to, to bring it about.

    2. AM

      Come into politics and then do what?

    3. RS

      And then, and then-

    4. AM

      Convince other politicians?

    5. RS

      Sorry?

    6. AM

      Convince other politicians?

    7. RS

      Yeah. I think... L-let me give you... An example I use, 'cause people say, "Oh, you can only have change if you become prime minister, not everyone gets to become prime minister." And I say, "That's not true." And the example I give young people who are thinking about becoming an MP is of a guy called William Wilberforce.

    8. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RS

      And he was an MP in Yorkshire, same as me, and my predecessor as a member of Parliament wrote a beautiful biography about him. Now, William Wilberforce was s-someone who essentially abolished the slave trade-

    10. AM

      Mm-hmm

    11. RS

      ... uh, in the UK and then internationally, and then helped abolish slavery. He was never a cabinet member, let alone prime minister or chancellor. He made a decision to do it only as a backbench MP, 'cause he believed that would give him the freedom and the moral authority and the time to focus on this one thing. He also had patience. From the first time he entered Parliament and made a speech about it, it took twenty years for him to get a bill passed in Parliament to abolish the slave trade, and then another twenty-odd years to have Parliament declare that slavery itself was illegal. So, and then he died three days after that, right? Uh, so his career on this issue spanned forty years-

    12. AM

      His whole life, yeah

    13. RS

      ... of which the big meaningful, the first meaningful thing happened after twenty. And during that period, he had all the things that we've been talking about. He had to cope with failure. Parliament voted more than ten times no, no, no, no, no. Uh-

    14. AM

      But like we discussed earlier, if everybody has to have the incentive of personal ambition being met, how do I incentivize a young guy who will only find that personal ambition need being met if he sits in a position of power?

    15. RS

      If he sits in a...?

    16. AM

      Position of power.

    17. RS

      Um, well, wait. But then this goes back to what we were saying before. There are lots of different ways to make a difference-

    18. AM

      Mm

    19. RS

      ... right, in life. There are lots of different ways to have impact. But if you want to have impact on that scale, the best way to do it is through government or, or through the political process, and that's what I'm saying. But even though you-- I'm saying you need to do it through the... We don't need to, but, uh, the best way to do it is through the political process. It doesn't mean you have to be the prime minister-

    20. AM

      Yeah

    21. RS

      ... or in the cabinet. What I'd say is there are hundreds of members of Parliament, right? That is a different bar to becoming the prime minister. But this individual, William Wilberforce, as one of six hundred odd mem- or however many it was in those days, hundreds of members of Parliament, was able to bring about this very significant change.

    22. AM

      Mm.

    23. RS

      Um, and he didn't do it on his own either. He... Touches on what we were saying before. He built a movement around him. Other people played their part. Now, he was the, the, the person at the front. Uh, but I think it's a really instructive story for young people to read, and I was inspired by it 'cause I didn't know I was gonna end up in cabinet or be prime minister. But it was, you know, as long as... as well as what Akshata's dad said to me, it was a great story of how one person could... You say can one person... Look, it takes more than one person, of course, there's a team, but it, you know, this was one person who made it his mission to do it. And it goes back to what you said earlier, Nikhil, about different motivations being complementary, and Akshata was talking about this, and I... He had a m-moral view that slavery was wrong, and that's what motivated him, and he was a person of faith.

    24. AM

      Mm.

    25. RS

      And... But he was smart.

    26. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    27. RS

      Right? A-and he recognized that wasn't the best way to persuade everyone, and actually, he came up with an economic case as to why slavery was wrong, and he came up with a patriotic security case why the slave trade was wrong because Britain was in a war with France, and he was saying, "Well, people are giving slaves to French. They'll be able to come and beat Britain, so we should ban the trade."

    28. AM

      Mm.

    29. RS

      And he was clever that way, right? For him, it was a moral mission, but ultimately, he knew some people would be motivated by different things, so he was able to bring all of that to bear, um, a-and, and ultimately, as I said, have the patience, have the resilience, the storytelling that we talked about, um, but based actually oddly as well, he was a great orator. Uh, you know, you and I talking about learning from that. But there was another guy called Thomas Clarkson who did all the hard work of documenting-

    30. AM

      Mm

  23. 2:16:03 – 2:22:04

    Education, financial literacy, and compounding

    1. NK

      Mm.

    2. AM

      And skills and-

    3. RS

      A- and, and set of practical skills, and financial security and independence. And my word, what an incredible platform that is to then enter politics, where you have so much more understanding and self-awareness of who you are.

    4. NK

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RS

      You've already got that validation.

    6. NK

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RS

      Which, which means you will enter the political arena with so much more personal self-confidence.

    8. NK

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RS

      The resilience of having had the ups and downs of building a business and doing something, and then using that experience to benefit-

    10. NK

      Yeah

    11. RS

      ... the country. But that, that motivation has to be one where you are getting into it because you want to make your country a better place.

    12. AM

      Yep.

    13. RS

      Like, that has to be-

    14. AM

      That's the service

    15. RS

      ... at the core of it.

    16. NK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    17. RS

      Right? And, and you, that's okay to be ambitious about it.

    18. NK

      I think that is, that is true for many, many young people I know.

    19. RS

      Yeah.

    20. NK

      But what I'm trying to also say is for a country where the average age is 28-

    21. RS

      Yes.

    22. AM

      Mm

    23. NK

      ... we need more people who are 28 in parliament.

    24. RS

      I... Look, I, I can see... Oh, look, I can see that.

    25. NK

      Mm.

    26. RS

      I can see that overall.

    27. NK

      Yeah.

    28. RS

      I can... My point about as an individual, I think you're better off-

    29. AM

      But, but-

    30. RS

      ... having the experience. I can see if for everyone does that, and then nobody is in parliament at a young age. I can, I can see that.

  24. 2:22:04 – 2:29:52

    Learning to learn in the AI age

    1. AM

      School essay, and, and in fact, I did write about this, is the solution is education. So here's what I mean. You, you, you know, when you think of a society and how it progresses, there are, there are many different ways, but you want to make sure that you... the society that you live in, the, the, the government of the land, of the nation provides sufficient security so that the basic needs are met, right? Now, I know that that isn't always easy, but that's sort of the focus.

    2. NK

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AM

      And then you think, "Well, okay, then how can we progress as a society?" And to me, the answer is education, because education, in my mind, is one of the things that allows equality of opportunity to emerge.

    4. NK

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AM

      Um-

    6. NK

      In a way, has that been solved for? Because education has gotten democratized with internet and AI and all of that. Like, I never went to college.

    7. AM

      Yeah.

    8. NK

      I can choose to pick a book I like to read and read it.

    9. AM

      Yeah, but that's-

    10. NK

      It's not that expensive

    11. AM

      ... because you're fundamentally curious.

    12. NK

      Mm. But-

    13. AM

      So I define education more broadly.

    14. RS

      Broadly.

    15. AM

      Right?

    16. RS

      But i- but Nikhil's point is right.

    17. AM

      Yeah.

    18. RS

      I, and I, I was talking about at the, the summit, is one of the... to me, one of the incredible things that AI can do, it isn't just about raising the ceiling. It can lift the floor for humanity, and the most obvious ways it can do that are democratizing access to healthcare and education, right? Where you've got, uh... now, it is possible that, before too long, every single child will be able to have the best possible teacher for them.

    19. AM

      And that's the job of philanthropy, of government, of, uh, of, uh, organi- different organizations to, to enable those outcomes, right? So yes, any child who lives in a certain society should have access to what, what I think is a broad s- sense of education. Of course, that's letters and numbers, but it's also curiosity. It's problem-thinking skills. Because when you are... when you have that in your toolkit, that's when you, you, you, you create entrepreneurs, you create, um, innovation, you create, uh, wealth in so many different ways. And, and then the tax co- i- is kind of the next step. But I think how do we first create that equality of opportunity-

    20. NK

      Mm

    21. AM

      ... so that more people are able to create that wealth in the first place?

    22. NK

      But even with education-

    23. AM

      Mm

    24. NK

      ... barring the risk capital, if asset prices continue to inflate at the pace that they are-

    25. RS

      Mm

    26. NK

      ... it'll be very hard for the inequality to come down.

    27. RS

      So-

    28. NK

      I met this interesting guy, Michael Milken.

    29. AM

      Mm.

    30. RS

      Yeah.

  25. 2:29:52 – 2:37:09

    How Rishi and Akshata use AI daily

    1. RS

      Biggest use case, I mean, for me is research, right?

    2. AM

      I was gonna say research.

    3. RS

      Like, thinking about policy-

    4. AM

      Just on different things, yeah

    5. RS

      ... and researching things. But that-

    6. NK

      And likely Claude, 'cause you're consulting with it daily.

    7. RS

      And, exactly. So I, I... The Claude is what I use the most.

    8. AM

      Mm.

    9. RS

      Um, and-

    10. NK

      Have you given Claude all the connectors access and allowed it to-

    11. RS

      I'm starting to do that now. So I'm start- I haven't yet. I've got this course that I'm about to do-

    12. NK

      Mm-hmm

    13. RS

      ... uh, to start using it for... I wanna start using it with Excel.

    14. NK

      I've given it a lot of access, and now I'm worried.

    15. RS

      Yeah.

    16. NK

      'Cause I don't even go to my email inbox anymore, 'cause I've given it access to my-

    17. RS

      Yeah

    18. NK

      ... all my emails-

    19. RS

      Now I have all of that

    20. NK

      ... and chat and all of that.

    21. AM

      Mm. Mm.

    22. NK

      So I ask it, "Are there any important emails that I missed today?"

    23. AM

      Mm. Mm.

    24. NK

      And it saves me the time to scroll through.

    25. RS

      To scroll through. Yeah.

    26. AM

      Mm.

    27. RS

      No, I-

    28. NK

      It's scary.

    29. AM

      Mm.

    30. RS

      Yeah.

  26. 2:37:09 – 2:44:06

    Can AI truly be creative?

    1. AM

      Again, as someone who's on the outside, can AI be creative?

    2. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AM

      And what then is even creativity, right?

    4. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AM

      Uh, for a long time in the early days of this whole, uh, evolution of AI, uh, people would say, "Well, AI c- can, uh, code faster than you solve mathematical problems, et cetera, but it can't be creative." And so I'm, I've been amazed how I can have philosophical discussions with Claude, and it will come up with the most creative, thoughtful answers. I mean, amazing.

    6. NK

      What is creative in your view? Is it contrarian beha- behavior that's creative?

    7. AM

      No, putting multiple thoughts together, right?

    8. NK

      Right.

    9. AM

      Putting... Not just giving me a f- list of facts or kind of obvious-

    10. NK

      Right

    11. AM

      ... answers, but pulling, connecting the dots.

    12. NK

      Right.

    13. AM

      Pulling not facts, but also even emotion.

    14. NK

      Mm-hmm. I would, in a way, in the new world, define creativity by contrarian behavior more so than yesterday-

    15. AM

      Mm

    16. NK

      ... because a lot of these models are trained on data which always projects a certain path.

    17. AM

      Mm. Yes, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    18. NK

      Mm.

    19. RS

      'Cause they're trained on a stock of-

    20. NK

      Yeah

    21. AM

      ... existing information

    22. RS

      ... knowledge and information.

    23. AM

      Yeah.

    24. RS

      It's, uh, yeah, this is the, I guess, the che- how will they be able to come up with something new?

    25. NK

      Yeah.

    26. AM

      Mm.

    27. NK

      You used to manage money before politics.

    28. RS

      Yes. Yeah. I used to be an investor.

    29. NK

      As a fund manager, I'm, I'm guessing you researched a whole bunch of-

    30. RS

      Yeah

Episode duration: 3:02:25

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