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Leah Belsky on how AI is transforming education — the OpenAI Podcast Ep. 4

AI is redefining how we learn — from personalized tutoring to entirely new teaching models. OpenAI’s Head of Education, Leah Belsky, joins host Andrew Mayne to discuss what this shift means for students, educators, and society. Special guests include college students Yabsera and Alaap, who share their perspectives on learning in the AI era. 00:22 – Leah’s path to OpenAI & the moonshot 01:40 – ChatGPT as a global learning platform—countries lean in 03:50 – Universities: equal access, trust, and adoption 05:12 – From AI detectors to better policy and practice 06:50 – Study Mode explained 09:51 – AI as a tutor that builds confidence 11:35 – Workforce skills graduates need 14:15 – The great brain rot debate 18:00 – A personal learning anecdote 19:30 – Meet the students 21:30 – First experiences with AI 25:25 – How professors are adapting 29:28 – Trying Study Mode 33:20 – ChatGPT vs. social media 41:43 – Cheating, challenges, and advice for students 49:24 – The future of learning with AI

Andrew MaynehostLeah BelskyguestYabseraguestAlaapguest
Jul 30, 202559mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:22

    Intro

    1. AM

      Hello, I'm Andrew Mayne, and this is the OpenAI Podcast. Today, we're gonna talk about ChatGPT and education. Does it cause brain rot? Is ChatGPT just a tool for cheating? We're gonna speak with Leah Belsky, Head of Education at OpenAI, and a couple students who are active users.

    2. LB

      ChatGPT, at this point, is now the world's largest learning platform.

    3. YA

      And it allows you to kind of

  2. 0:22 – 1:40

    Leah’s path to OpenAI & the moonshot

    1. YA

      cut through the noise and do things that you actually enjoy.

    2. LB

      You know, ChatGPT was gonna unlock the world for this girl, and I was not gonna have to be worried in the same way.

    3. AL

      When it comes to learning and exploring ideas, I ask ChatGPT a lot of those questions. [upbeat music]

    4. AM

      Tell me about your journey to OpenAI.

    5. LB

      You know, I think ultimately, OpenAI is about a, a mission and about its people, and so I'll tell you at least my, my story. Um, so I came to OpenAI after spending 15 years in the education space, starting at the World Bank and then at Coursera, focused on this mission of making education accessible to the world. Um, and when I- ... And I took on this job with Brad, our COO, he brought, he brought me into the office, and, you know, I was wondering what, what the exact focus of education at OpenAI would be. And, and he sat me down, and he said, "Leah, you know, I want you to go after the moonshot.

    6. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    7. LB

      We all have this dream that, that AI could improve human potential, that it could be an effective tutor and a companion for people throughout their lives. Go after that dream-

    8. AM

      Mm-hmm

    9. LB

      ... and make sure that once we build that product, everyone in the world can have it." And that's really been the, the North Star, and I thought that was meaningful, you know, from the, the head of go-to-market, the head of revenue-

    10. AM

      Mm-hmm

    11. LB

      ... to say, "Go after the biggest transformative moonshot so that the highest in hopes and dreams that we all have for AI in education

  3. 1:40 – 3:50

    ChatGPT as a global learning platform—countries lean in

    1. LB

      can be realized."

    2. AM

      That's pretty inspiring and, and hopeful, the idea of trying to make this widespread as possible. How do you see basically, you know, global impact? How are we gonna, you know, see the effects of this around the world?

    3. LB

      Yeah. Well, first thing to say is, like, ChatGPT, at this point, is now the world's largest learning platform.

    4. AM

      Wow!

    5. LB

      Learning is one of the top use cases on the platform. At 600 million users-

    6. AM

      Mm

    7. LB

      ... that means it is the world's learning destination, and that means learning outside of the educational system. I really see ChatGPT as a new frontier for learning. Um, but we also see that teachers are major adopters of the, of the, of the platform, and they are using that both to get rid of the administrative burden of their own work-

    8. AM

      Mm-hmm

    9. LB

      ... but also to, to bring it into their classroom. What's been striking is to just see the global demand for ChatGPT.

    10. AM

      Mm.

    11. LB

      So a few weeks ago, we launched a, a program called OpenAI for Countries.

    12. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    13. LB

      And we've had ministries all over the world reach out. Estonia, the country of Estonia, was actually one of the first countries that reached out.

    14. AM

      Well, like Estonia makes sense.

    15. LB

      Estonia makes sense.

    16. AM

      Yeah.

    17. LB

      They are the, they are the top of the world. They have some of the-

    18. AM

      Yeah

    19. LB

      ... best PISA scores. They have an amazing educational system. Um, but they were the first to realize, "Wow, this is an opportunity to, like, push students even further-

    20. AM

      Mm

    21. LB

      ... and to empower our teachers even further." And after Estonia, it's been one country after another. And what's interesting is that when the countries come to us, you know, they're coming to us because they wanna deploy AI as core infrastructure through their education system. But they're also coming to us because they're feeling, like, the impact of an economic transition.

    22. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    23. LB

      And they're realizing that if they are going to be developing an AI-powered economy, they need to, they need to graduate a workforce that ne- learns how to use AI. And so it's not just about creating new AI courses, they need to make sure that every student who leaves their secondary school system has used AI as part of their class. Um, and so it's that, it's that dual focus of these countries. They're looking to be economically competitive. They want to build an AI-ready workforce. They want to be successful in a new AI-powered economy, and they want to improve their education system.

    24. AM

      What are you hearing from educational

  4. 3:50 – 5:12

    Universities: equal access, trust, and adoption

    1. AM

      partners and institutions?

    2. LB

      So we're hearing a couple things. I think those that have made the investment feel a certain pride that they have equalized access to AI on their campuses.

    3. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    4. LB

      They are- They really believe that AI should be core infrastructure for the campus-

    5. AM

      Mm

    6. LB

      ... and that it should be open to everyone. They're conscious that, you know, before introducing AI, in many campus, you, you'll be- find a situation where those who are not on financial aid will be buying access to the latest models, and those who don't have access to resources, um, will not. So there's a, there's a pride in, in driving equal access. I think the institutions are also hungry to engage with each other and collaborate and understand what are the top 5 or 10 ways in which faculty are using the tech and bringing it into the classroom. The other type piece of feedback that we're getting, though, is that students are hesitant to use some of the school-provided AI.

    7. AM

      Hmm.

    8. LB

      And unless universities make a big point of telling students that, "We're not monitoring this tech, we're not looking at your conversations," students are, are hesitant to adopt it. You know, what's striking is that the generation of students that is in universities right now is the COVID generation.

    9. AM

      Right.

    10. LB

      Right? They are used to having some of their first experiences with tech be about, like, Zoom and Global Classroom and having, you know, teachers screaming at them or monitoring and telling them they're not doing their

  5. 5:12 – 6:50

    From AI detectors to better policy and practice

    1. LB

      homework while they're all sitting at home going crazy, and so they're hesitant-

    2. AM

      Yeah

    3. LB

      ... about educational technology. And universities are realizing that if they want to engage with students and help students learn in new ways with ChatGPT, they need to build an actual trust with students.

    4. AM

      Yeah, I, I mentioned this before, but, like, I was frustrated because, like, the AI detectors were terrible. Like, there were these AI detect- Like, one, I could sh- show somebody how to write text that would be flagged as AI and also how to prompt a thing to avoid it, and, and that just created this, you know, relationship that started off, if you're using a bad tool like that, you know, you, you take one or two students who didn't cheat and told they're cheaters. That's just...

    5. LB

      Yeah. In, in many institutions, I would say we got off onto the wrong foot-

    6. AM

      Yeah

    7. LB

      ... with AI in the classroom. Instead of trying to be explicit and establish clear policies on when students should use the tech and when they shouldn't, teachers sort of hid from it.

    8. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    9. LB

      Um, we started with policing its use rather than actually sitting there and figuring out how do we actually want to redesign-

    10. AM

      Yeah

    11. LB

      ... the way we assess students and the way we assign homework. Um-... but I think we're moving, we're moving beyond that point.

    12. AM

      Yeah, I've been encouraged, and we, we saw-- I remember when I was here, we had one school system that was like, had kind of a knee-jerk reaction, said, "We're banning it." And it was, like, a few months later, they had enough teachers within there going, "Hey, no, this is a really good tool. We know how to teach to this." And they said, "Okay, we're, we're gonna reverse that now." And that was-- it was a, it was very, um, good to see e- energized teachers embrace this and say, "Okay," and wanting their students to under- they knew this was gonna be part of the future. Well, now there's Study Mode. Could you talk a little about

  6. 6:50 – 9:51

    Study Mode explained

    1. AM

      that?

    2. LB

      Um, so Study Mode is, uh, a product we just launched. Um, and it is intended to take, really improve learning in ChatGPT, and take it from an experience that is just focused on giving answers to really guiding a student-

    3. AM

      Mm-hmm

    4. LB

      ... to get to the answers. So Study-- in Study Mode, uh, ChatGPT answers Socratically. It personalizes responses to sort of the level of your learning. It understands the context of what you're learning. It c- asks great follow-up questions.

    5. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    6. LB

      It asks if you wanna have a quiz on the topic. It encourages you to, to go deeper. Um, and ultimately, this is, this is a, a first step to really leaning into this idea of, of ChatGPT as a, as a tutor.

    7. AM

      So how did this come about? Was there conversations with educators and parents about this?

    8. LB

      Um, so Study Mode actually, um, came out of a trip that our team took in India-

    9. AM

      Oh, wow

    10. LB

      ... um, where they had a few, where they realized a few things. One, they realized that in a place like India, families were spending a huge percentage of their per capita income on tutors-

    11. AM

      Mm-hmm

    12. LB

      ... and after-school help. Um, they also realized that there was just a tremendous will and desire among young people to get to, get to the next level. And so, you know, we began this journey of, like, what would it take to actually get ChatGPT and turn ChatGPT into an even better tutor than it already is? And so we started by, you know, and this was my first, my first experience building, like, an AI product. So we started actually building a, a schema, informed by learning science-

    13. AM

      Mm

    14. LB

      ... and informed by pedagogical experts, that said, "How should ChatGPT respond?" It's not just gonna give answers, but it's gonna actually help you, you learn. Um, and then we worked with open- with experts around the world to gather what we call golden examples-

    15. AM

      Mm-hmm

    16. LB

      ... of how ChatGPT would ideally respond. Is the tone encouraging? Does it encourage curiosity? Does it, um, cater a response to the level of a student's need? And through that process of sort of going back and forth and training the model, that's how Study merged, Study Mode emerged. And I would say, you know, we're, we're super excited to see the feedback on this product-

    17. AM

      Mm

    18. LB

      ... out in the world, but it's also very much a beginning.

    19. AM

      Yeah, it's a starting point.

    20. LB

      It's a starting point. You know, we've-- we're really only in the early stages of pushing the way in which the model can respond in multimodal ways.

    21. AM

      Mm.

    22. LB

      You know, one day you could imagine asking Study Mode to give you samples of a sort of a biology assignment, to explain organic chemistry, and to pop up interactive diagrams, or to nudge you, "You know, three weeks down the road, do you remember you told me that you wanted to ace this year's organic chemistry-

    23. AM

      Mm

    24. LB

      ... exam? Can- shall we dig back into the topic now?" It could be proactive and really sort of travel with you over time. And I think over time, the, the hope is to get Study Mode to that point.

    25. AM

      That'd be great. Yeah, I can see that combined with spaced repetition, then you could have just a really good tool that doesn't just help you pass the test, but help you remember it for a long time.

    26. LB

      Right.

    27. AM

      And I think you, you touched about something there, which is, that in, uh, you know, certain households, they can afford to have private tutors, tutoring programs, great, and we talk about kind of the differences

  7. 9:51 – 11:35

    AI as a tutor that builds confidence

    1. AM

      in educational opportunities. You can have a bunch of kids that go to the same school, but the parents that are able to have the kid go to a tutor are gonna be in a situation where the child's gonna have a higher chance of an outcome. Now, you see this as a leveller.

    2. LB

      Look, I think the first place where AI is having a huge impact in education is not even in the classroom. It's outside of the classroom-

    3. AM

      Mm

    4. LB

      ... where it's equalizing access to what's really like adult support.

    5. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    6. LB

      There are many students out in the world who don't have access to a quality teacher. They don't have access to tutors. They don't have access to parents who are gonna sit down and help them. And now with AI, they can have this companion who can encourage them, who can give feedback on their homework, on their writing, who can help, help them answer tough questions. Um, we, we formed a, a lab of, of student users-

    7. AM

      Mm

    8. LB

      ... of ChatGPT. It's called ChatGPT Lab. I think you're gonna talk to a few of the students. And one thing that really struck me is, they said using, using AI gave them confidence.

    9. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    10. LB

      Um, and it got to them a place where formerly they would feel stuck, or they would feel discouraged. Um, one of the students told a story of being in the classroom, um, as a computer science student.

    11. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    12. LB

      And for many years, she would get stuck in her consu- computer science courses, and she started to give up. She couldn't understand the textbooks. But when she used ChatGPT out of school as a, as a tutor, she started to feel like, "Oh, I can ask questions. I can understand this. Like, I have confidence, and maybe I can actually continue and move forward." And so I think it's as much... You know, if you think about what tutors do in the world, they give you encouragement, they give you a sense of confidence that, "I can, and I want, and I can move forward." And then, of course, they deliver the content in contextual and personal ways. I think ChatGPT can do all of these things.

    13. AM

      So

  8. 11:35 – 14:15

    Workforce skills graduates need

    1. AM

      when it comes to workforce productivity, how does that work on a personal scale? What advice would you give to people?

    2. LB

      So all the recent data shows that workers who use AI in the workforce are incredibly more productive.

    3. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    4. LB

      Um, it's particularly true in fields like professional services and financial students, but, you know, really any graduate who, who leaves institution today needs to know how to use AI in their daily life, and that will come in both when they're applying for jobs, as well as when they start, start their new job. And so one of the big reasons why institutions are now deploying AI as core infrastructure about-- across campus is they wanna make sure their students leave with those workforce skills. Um, the, the data shows that seven in 10 employers would rather hire someone with AI skills over someone who had up to 10 years of experience in a given function.

    5. AM

      I've seen that. I, I run a firm where I help put together teams to work with companies who are trying to deploy AI, and the thing that we look for in-... people we work with is basically AI skills. Somebody who spent six months learning how to use this stuff, I don't really care what their LinkedIn or actually their curriculum looked like, I just wanna know, have you been using it? Can you use it?

    6. LB

      Yeah. Look, I think the other sort of core literacy that's gonna become important now is coding.

    7. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    8. LB

      You know, for a while it was, you know, there was a moment where we thought all students need to learn coding, and then I think there was a big focus on engineers. But now with vibe coding, and now that there-

    9. AM

      Mm

    10. LB

      ... are all sorts of tools that make coding easier, I think we're gonna get to a place where every student should not only learn how to use AI generally, but they should learn to use AI to create-

    11. AM

      Mm-hmm

    12. LB

      ... to create image, to create, create applications, to, to write code, and I think sort of basic coding is gonna become a core literacy that's gonna be important as well.

    13. AM

      Yeah, I, I get- I hear people go like, "Why learn to code, 'cause AI codes for you?" And it's like, like, why learn to read if books are full of text?

    14. LB

      Yeah.

    15. AM

      I was like, like, no, the world still runs on these things, and it-- and I think, yeah, it's a very valuable... You know, one of my colleagues, you know, he does a lot of financial stuff, and he's creating new calculators and building the little tools for this all the time. I build stuff for myself, for learning and whatever, and, you know, I already knew how to code, but it just makes it so much easier, and knowing what the code does is effective.

    16. LB

      Yeah, absolutely. So I'm of the view that as coding becomes something that's easier, the ability to understand code, to create it, and to bug it is gonna become a core literacy. That's gonna become increasingly more important.

    17. AM

      Yeah, I think that's great advice. I think just the more time people spend trying to use these tools, trying different things with these tools... And one of the things I've heard that works really well is just meeting on a regular basis with other people, whether it's at a workplace, you know, like have once a week or once a month to get together and talk about stuff, or students sharing what they've learned. So, uh,

  9. 14:15 – 18:00

    The great brain rot debate

    1. AM

      I- there's been some sort of sensational headlines talking about how AI can cause brain rot when it comes to education.

    2. LB

      Look, I, I hear you, and it's, and it's, it's one of these questions I get asked every day. AI is ultimately a tool-

    3. AM

      Mm-hmm

    4. LB

      ... and what matters most in the education space is how that tool is used. Learning takes struggle. It takes working with information, it takes processing it. If students use AI as an answer machine-

    5. AM

      Mm

    6. LB

      ... they're not gonna learn, and so I think that's what people are, are worried about. And so part of our journey here is really to help students and educators use AI in ways that will expand critical thinking, that will expand creativity. And, and it, and you can-- you don't need to read complex studies to know that AI used in certain ways is positive or negative.

    7. AM

      Mm.

    8. LB

      I think of my daughter, right? She's learning long division right now. It takes a certain amount of struggle. [chuckles] There are some tears involved. If I were to hand her a calculator and said, "Don't do the division problem, just put it into, into AI"-

    9. AM

      Mm

    10. LB

      ... "are you gonna learn long division?" She wouldn't. But at the same time, you know, down the road, as she's learning advanced math, I anticipate I can give her that calculator, and she'll be able to u- do math at a higher level than she otherwise would. Um, AI use is, is no different. It needs to be used in a way that drives feedback, that gives people [chuckles] personal tutoring, that helps you ask and answer questions in, in different ways. Um, that's how we're gonna advance learning.

    11. AM

      Yeah, I read-- Uh, there was one study that just recently made the news, and I actually sat down, and I read it, and it was saying if you copy-paste answers, you don't learn, which was just like, wow!

    12. LB

      Exactly.

    13. AM

      Well-

    14. LB

      It's like if I were try- if I were training for a marathon, and you said like: "Hey, Leah, can I give you a scooter?"

    15. AM

      Mm.

    16. LB

      And for some of these training runs, you'd like take a scooter down the, down the road, I wouldn't get into more shape.

    17. AM

      Yeah.

    18. LB

      That, that was very similar to that study. [chuckles]

    19. AM

      Yeah, and I, I, I think the frustrating thing is like I think there really are important questions to, to be asked about this. I do think that, you know, critical thinking skills, we have to think about how we develop these and how we pursue that. I get a little frustrated, though, when I see-- I, again, I, again, I'm sure there's a real good defense of that study, but I see studies like, like this is... You're saying an obvious thing. The thing we need to think about is how do you actually use these tools? How can you improve your critical thinking skills? And I think that's gonna be, you know, an open-end question we're gonna have to keep asking ourselves.

    20. LB

      Yeah. Look, part of the reason why we created, uh, Study Mode, which is essentially a tutoring experience for students-

    21. AM

      Mm

    22. LB

      ... is so students wouldn't have to learn how to prompt the model-

    23. AM

      Yeah

    24. LB

      ... in ways that would give feedback, or quiz, or, or drive learning. Instead, it would be a mode that you would enter where the model itself would push you-

    25. AM

      Mm-hmm

    26. LB

      ... and would guide you towards answers, and personalize, and give context, and scaffold knowledge. Um, so we're on this journey to create an experience in ChatGPT where a student doesn't have to know how to use it in certain ways.

    27. AM

      Mm.

    28. LB

      Um, and I think that's where you're gonna really see, um, the boundaries of learning being advanced.

    29. AM

      Yeah, and I'm ex- I'm excited because I, I'm hearing kind of anecdotal stories from parents where they'll, while supervised, but they'll let their kid start a conversation with ChatGPT, and you quickly realize that ChatGPT has infinite patience to talk about frogs. You can never exhaust it. It'll talk about frogs forever, and that budding herpetologist might all of a sudden, you know, realize that they really like talking about this, even though their parents don't.

    30. LB

      One of the things that's magical about ChatGPT is it is patient.

  10. 18:00 – 19:30

    A personal learning anecdote

    1. LB

      space is, is giving people that scaffolding to have confidence that they can dive, dive in, and they, and they can learn. So one of the reasons I came to OpenAI was actually also connected to my daughter. Um, she is, she is dyslexic, and for years, I would watch her brother come down in the morning and read the newspaper, and I would think to myself and think, You know, how is this brilliant little girl gonna actually learn how to access the world?

    2. AM

      Mm.

    3. LB

      How is she gonna learn a- about current events? And the summer before I joined OpenAI, we launched Advanced Voice Mode.

    4. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    5. LB

      Um, and I remember handing her the phone, and I said: "Zoey, why don't you try talking with ChatGPT?" And she said, "Hey, ChatGPT, my mom is worried that [chuckles] I'm not gonna learn about current events 'cause I can't read the newspaper like my brother. Can you tell me what's going on in the world?" And what was so poignant is I remember ChatGPT responding and saying-... you know, "Sure, Zoe, what are you interested in? What do you wanna learn about in the world today?" And from there, the conversation went, went on, and they were talking about all her interests in space and robots, and I realized in that moment that, you know, ChatGPT was gonna unlock the world-

    6. AM

      Mm-hmm

    7. LB

      ... for this girl, and I was not gonna have to be worried in the same way. Um-

    8. AM

      That's, that's powerful. I'm, I'm excited to see how it helps with issues like that, uh, accessibility issues, and I think that it's gonna be interesting to see where we are a few years from now. Uh, Leah, thank you so much for talking with me. This has been very interesting. I'm excited to see where these things go next.

    9. LB

      Awesome. Great talking to you, Andrew.

  11. 19:30 – 21:30

    Meet the students

    1. AM

      I'd also like to know a little bit more about you both, too. So, Yabi, could you tell me what you're studying right now?

    2. YA

      Yeah, um, so I actually just finished up my undergraduate degree in communication at USC. Um, and then I'm going to enter the first semester of my master's program in business analytics, also at USC.

    3. AM

      Okay, cool, so why did you wanna choose that?

    4. YA

      Um, initially, when I came to college, I wasn't really sure, kinda like, the subject matter I wanted to study. Um, so I took, like, a lot of time to take GE courses to kinda explore. Um, and then through there, I think I, I liked the more of the human component of, like, research and theory. Um, and I found that communication was, like, a really good major to, like, kinda explore that through. Um, and then throughout, like, you know, my college career, I started taking a lot of stat classes, um, and then, you know, gave me the basis for, like, analytical thinking, and I really wanted to kinda add that on. So I added a data science minor. Um, and then kinda having that, like, creative and analytical, um, component come together, I think it led me to business analytics, so-

    5. AM

      That's a- it's a very interesting combination there. That's pretty cool, the way that came about. So, Alaap, tell us what you're studying.

    6. AL

      Yeah, I'm studying electrical engineering and computer science, uh, at Berkeley. I'm a rising sophomore.

    7. AM

      What brought you into those fields?

    8. AL

      Um, I think growing up, I grew up in the Bay Area, so I've been exposed to a lot of tech, uh, around me, and I'm also, like, a really hands-on guy. I like, uh, fidgeting with circuits or playing around with code, and I really like finding solutions to some issues that I see.

    9. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    10. AL

      Um, and I found that one of my favorite ways to do that was through code and through hardware engineering, so I thought this would be a, a good combination of the two.

    11. AM

      Did you like to build things when you were younger?

    12. AL

      Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like, I'd build, like, a solar-powered car, uh-

    13. AM

      Oh, of course. Right.

    14. AL

      Yeah, just, like, a small one-

    15. AM

      Sure

    16. AL

      ... and then I built a big one later. [chuckles]

    17. AM

      Oh, yeah, obviously. [chuckles]

    18. AL

      Yeah. But yeah, just, just anything I could just, like, really see just in, in person and visualize.

    19. AM

      So you guys are both pretty forward-thinking. Could you tell me what was kind of your

  12. 21:30 – 25:25

    First experiences with AI

    1. AM

      first big aha moment with AI, any kind of AI in general?

    2. AL

      I remember I was a junior in high school, and, and this kind of buzz of, "Oh, do you know- have you heard of ChatGPT?"-

    3. AM

      Mm

    4. AL

      ... kind of started going around. Um, and that was, like... That was like, obviously, AI had existed before.

    5. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    6. AL

      Um, I had witnessed, like, the ASIMO robot. I don't know if you've heard of that.

    7. AM

      Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

    8. AL

      But yeah, so humanoids, but, but really, like, seeing, like, an AI that I could actually use and interact with was ChatGPT, and we're all huddling around my computer, and I just made an account with OpenAI, and I had an assignment on how to write my To Kill a Mockingbird essay. [chuckles] And I was like, "If it can, if it can really do anything, let's see how it writes."

    9. AM

      Right.

    10. AL

      And boom, it wrote me a full To Kill a Mockingbird essay. I did not use it, but, uh, it was definitely cool to see and just, like, a moment that I really remember.

    11. AM

      Yeah, I wanna ask you a little bit more about that.

    12. AL

      Yeah.

    13. AM

      Um, so how about you?

    14. YA

      Um, I think for me, it was honestly funny, 'cause I think a lot of people started off with, like, an academic or, like, study use case for it. But then I think when I stumbled across from it, I remember I was, like, a sophomore, my first semester of sophomore year in college, um, and I saw, like, the social media posts about, like, how, you know, you can kinda use ChatGPT for, like, certain, like... you know, write a story for me. And so I think my first prompt to it was to, like, write fan fiction-

    15. AM

      Mm-hmm

    16. YA

      ... which is, like, really funny, and, like, it was just, like, a random use case, and I remember showing my roommates, um, and they all thought it was pretty stupid, honestly.

    17. AM

      [chuckles]

    18. YA

      Um, and so I think it was just, like, a lot of mundane, random use cases. Um, and, and then I think it was, like, later on that I actually started using it, like, academically, specifically when I started doing, like, more coding-oriented classes. But I think that aha moment for me is the fact that you can use it for, like, day-to-day tasks and less so for, like, educational research.

    19. AM

      I can't let this drop. You mentioned fan fiction.

    20. YA

      [chuckles]

    21. AM

      What fan fiction?

    22. YA

      Um, so just to give context, I feel like when I was younger, as most people do-

    23. AM

      There's no judgement. You don't have to context.

    24. YA

      [chuckles]

    25. AM

      There's no judgement here.

    26. YA

      Thank you. This feels like ChatGPT. Um-

    27. AL

      But don't say that to him. [chuckles]

    28. AM

      Yeah. [chuckles] I see what you're saying. That's great. [chuckles]

    29. YA

      Um, but, um, so yeah, so I think there was, like, a lot of different kind of, like, outlandish, like, fan fictions, like, kinda going on, and I think one of the communities that I thought was, like, pretty funny was, like, the Shrek fan fiction community. [chuckles]

    30. AM

      [chuckles]

  13. 25:25 – 29:28

    How professors are adapting

    1. YA

      like, like, automation- like, automative tasks. So, like, I feel like in my communication courses, like, I'm seeing a lot less, like, at, like, as, "Define this, like, term," kind of question, and more about, like, "How do you apply this term? What does this mean in, like, a bigger context?" So I feel like there's a lot more focus on, like, meaning and, like, intentionality, as opposed to kind of more, like, basic understanding.

    2. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. YA

      Um, and I think, you know, a lot of test-taking forms are actually, like, more open format than I thought they would be. Um, and, and because of that, the questions have also shifted to ask more of, like, you know, questions that are like, you know, could be extrapolated to, like, bigger meanings, as opposed to kind of, like, the typical, like, "Define this term."

    4. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    5. YA

      So I feel like that's how I've seen a change.

    6. AL

      Yeah, I've actually noticed that in, in my CS classes. Um, some professors, obviously, they, they want us to not use it for these, like, simple homework assignments-

    7. AM

      Mm-hmm

    8. AL

      ... that are just, like, check for, uh, check to see if you actually remember the concept. But for bigger projects, we actually got, uh, two tracks we could take. One is with using AI, and one is without using AI.

    9. AM

      Mm.

    10. AL

      And I thought it was really interesting that the professor is kind of, you know, greeting this, this new concept and, and adapting to it. And the professor said, "With AI, we're gonna give you a bit of a harder assignment-

    11. AM

      Yeah.

    12. AL

      ... and we're gonna push you more, and you're gonna have to write a reflection on what AI gave you, so that you also get the concepts that you would- that AI would tell you." Um, but with the non-AI, you would kind of do a more traditional project, but with AI, you could, like, push it much further. So it was great to-- that the professor was allowing you to choose between the two.

    13. AM

      Which did you choose?

    14. AL

      I chose non-AI.

    15. AM

      Okay.

    16. AL

      But, um, yeah, I know a lot of people who did choose AI.

    17. AM

      Why did you choose non-AI?

    18. AL

      I think that for me, I, I wasn't the, I wasn't the most, like, technically, like, sound with the concept that the project was about.

    19. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    20. AL

      And I remember that I had a few features that I myself wanted to implement in this, in this kind of mini game. But with AI, it was like, you can ask it to brainstorm and help you get features, and you can implement those with AI. But I kind of knew what I, I wanted to do from the get-go.

    21. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    22. AL

      And because I already had my ideas, I use AI a lot for brainstorming, but because I already had my ideas, I was like: "Oh, I might as well just really just, like, focus on implementing the ideas that I had already come up with."

    23. AM

      Yeah. That's a, a- it's a thing that comes up a lot, 'cause I think some professors, they want the students to learn the fundamentals, which is important, because if you learn Python, you really need to learn Python.

    24. AL

      Right.

    25. AM

      And I think it's gonna be helpful for even for decades to come. We need to have people who understand how these things work. Uh, but I've seen some programs where they're not even teaching them how to use AI for, like, code generation, which to me sounds like malpractice, you know. Which again, again, just that's my take on that. But I think that I like the idea that there's a different courses, and the idea that if you're gonna use AI, then great, you have to do bigger challenges. And I've had people ask me about this, "What do we do if people can use ChatGPT?" I'm like: "Have students do bigger projects." You know, where they would've done a book report before, have them make a music video. You know, just make bigger things and do more. I, I think there are valid concerns when people are looking at something that's gonna change the way that we work and trying to figure out the outcome, and so I, I understand some of the hesitation there. And I do think that critical thinking skills are important, and I think this technology is trying to adapt to that. Because if it's just another thing that people copy-paste from, then, like, yeah, you're not gonna learn. So OpenAI is rolling out a new feature, Study with ChatGPT, which seems to be kind of very interesting approach with that. Have you guys tried this?

    26. AL

      Yep.

    27. AM

      What's your... How would you describe it?

    28. AL

      Um, I would say that Study Mode is, is a cha- it's challenging. Um, and it, it forces, forces the user to actually challenge themselves with any sort of content. So I, myself, when I tried it, I, I asked it to teach me about AI.

    29. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    30. AL

      And I also tried this with the regular s- chat mode, and it just gave me a big list of-

  14. 29:28 – 33:20

    Trying Study Mode

    1. AL

      it actually just didn't even answer my question, and gave me three questions to understand what I really wanted.

    2. AM

      Hmm.

    3. AL

      And it said: "Do you have a specific topic that you really want to get into? How much do you know about this? What are you doing right now?" And I got it to a specific topic, which is fine-tuning, and it really broke it down one by one. And I think the biggest thing about Study Mode is that it doesn't just assume that you remember it and move on. Maybe after a few minutes, it'll go back and say, "Oh, here's a little, uh, mental check, a little sanity check. Do you remember this?" And you'll have to answer that again, because in our brains, that's what's really, like, forming those connections, our neural connections, and actually helping us remember these concepts. And I think that Study Mode does a really great job. If you really want to learn a concept and apply that concept and, and understand it to its fullest potential, um, that's when you would use it, when you don't want just a question-answer.

    4. YA

      Yeah. Um, I've also kind of done like a similar, like, side-by-side comparison with Study Mode versus, like, the regular mode, and I think-

    5. AM

      You guys are very analytical. I love this- [chuckles]

    6. YA

      [chuckles]

    7. AM

      ... that you did these AB tests on this.

    8. AL

      Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

    9. AM

      I played and like: "Oh, this is pretty cool." [chuckles]

    10. YA

      [chuckles] Um, and I think, like, when I... So I was- I think I was, like, trying to- I was doing, like, a research on a very, like, niche topic, um, kind of about, like, EDM and rave culture, and its, like, history in, like, California. And I was like: I feel like that's, like, a really interesting topic to kind of do research on, um, and see what, like, you know, ChatGPT has to say about it. And I remember, um... Well, I guess my usage of, like, kind of ChatGPT for, like, research is, I feel like I always, in the back of my mind, acknowledging that it's, like, an LLM, not very, like-... suited for, like, research unless you kind of have good parameters around it.

    11. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    12. YA

      So usually the way I approach it is that I go through my sources that I find, like through Google, like research papers, and I actually paste that into the chat and ask it to only draw from those parameters, because I wanna keep it, like, more contained and less-

    13. AM

      Mm-hmm

    14. YA

      ... like, general. Um, and so I feel like when I was doing that research into, like, kind of looking into, like, rave culture in California, I found that, like, when I used the Regular Mode and put in the context, it did produce a good output. But with Study Mode, I didn't even really need to use that context because it narrowed the parameters to that back-and-forth chat. Um, and I feel like my learning was more kind of rigorous through there because it's like we're answering questions instead of being, like, fed kind of like long pieces of content information that the Regular Mode gave. So I thought that was, like, a really effective kind of learning method.

    15. AM

      Has this given you more confidence about the future as far as you're finding a role and being able to adapt to whatever's gonna come next, or not?

    16. AL

      Definitely. I think, I think there's two sides to, to what OpenAI is producing. Um, I think with this, like, Agent Mode, there, there is that, like, super futuristic look, where you think, "Oh, like, maybe some, like, certain tasks that I used to be doing for my internship, they won't even want me to do."

    17. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    18. AL

      But then with Study Mode, it's really, like, drawing it back and thinking about, like, each concept that you're learning in school. And so to me, I think Study Mode's one of the most important modes in, in ChatGPT because it'll actually help you learn, whereas I think people are-- when they're trying to use AI, they're trying to just get the answer.

    19. AM

      Yeah.

    20. AL

      Um, so yeah.

    21. AM

      I'm, I'm, I'm excited as a lifelong learner, as every time we have a new tool like this, to continuously play with it and to see where this is heading. I use ChatGPT all the time. I'm, I'm gonna admit that here. I don't spend a lot of time on social media. I was never really a big social media person other than, like, for news. What has been your experience? Do you spend... Like, how is-- Like, what's a normal day for you? And then also, like, let's say, how much social media are you using versus ChatGPT?

    22. YA

      For me, I think-- So I actually, not recently, about like a year ago, um, kind of decided to take a step back from social media usage, just, uh, particularly like TikTok.

  15. 33:20 – 41:43

    ChatGPT vs. social media

    1. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    2. YA

      Um, just 'cause, um, I feel like I was just, like, getting a lot of content in one place in, like, a di- like, a digestible manner, which is, like, what the convenience of it is. But I feel like I started getting too used to that convenience, and like, like, I feel like I was just, like, kind of passively consuming content without really, like, researching or fact, fact-checking it as much. I feel like it wasn't really great.

    3. AM

      That's the whole point of TikTok. [chuckles]

    4. YA

      Yeah, that's the whole point.

    5. AM

      [chuckles]

    6. YA

      But like, I feel like I was like-- It was making me pretty complacent, I think.

    7. AM

      Yeah.

    8. YA

      Um, and I didn't like that, so I decided to go off it. Um, so in that sense, I think less of usage with, like, video form content. Um, but I do, like, use social media to, like, communicate with my peers and, you know, I guess Instagram for, like, photos and stuff like that.

    9. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    10. YA

      But, um, I think ChatGPT has become more salient in my life, like, 'cause I feel like right now as a student, like, like, 80% of my life is, like, school, and then I guess even the summer, like, another 80% of my life is, like, work. So I feel like I definitely use it, whether it's, like, in terms of that or even, like, day-to-day, like, activities. I feel like much more using ChatGPT than I am social media, but yeah.

    11. AL

      Yeah, I think, uh, a big thing is that, like, social media is now trying to be that kind of like a one-stop shop for kind of everything, right? Like, people will now shop on sh- social media.

    12. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AL

      People will now find their news on social media, see what their friends are doing. And I think similar to what you were saying, Abi, about, um, like, how social media, you, you kinda started getting a little bit of everything. You know, some people can find that as a good thing, but for me, when I used to go on social media, I realised that I was just scrolling for hours because I realised that I was like: "Oh, like, I'm getting some news content. I'm learning about some things here." And so I was less actual- actually conscious about the time I was spending on social media, and I realised that a lot of that time is just a lot of content that I don't want as well.

    14. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AL

      And so I've realised that, that, you know, for my day-to-day, I, I've drawn back on my social media usage. And when it comes to learning and exploring ideas, I ask ChatGPT a lot of those questions because I'm very specific about what I want and what I can get out of ChatGPT. And social media, I, I use consciously as, like, my leisure time to just, like, relax and just enjoy some content, whereas, like, I don't, I don't like to kind of mix everything into one app.

    16. AM

      For me, there was this moment, and it really happened with deep research, where the quality of things I was getting was often better than what I found online. And I found it-- Like, I could ask a really interesting question. It could be something silly about, like, you know, a bunch of crocodiles massacring people or something. Like, I mean, it was a World War II story. I'm like: "What's the truth about this?" And you get a deep research report, and it comes back: "Well, it was overblown." But that was fun to sort of look through these things and say: "Oh, okay, what are questions I want that I wish there were articles on that?" And, uh, and did you find that, too, that all of a sudden, content got better?

    17. AL

      I remember... So in high school, when, when ChatGPT first came out, I was, uh, in, like, a research, uh, like, a research class, uh, where I basically just researched on a topic that I wanted to-

    18. AM

      Mm-hmm

    19. AL

      ... and, and wrote a paper about it. And early on, ChatGPT couldn't access the web.

    20. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    21. AL

      So I'd paste in a link, and it'd be like: "Oh, I can't read that."

    22. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    23. AL

      Um, and so I found that, like, I would, like, paste, like, a big paper in and, and try to give it that way, but it, it wasn't, it wasn't good at, at, like, finding content for me. So I really had to do that myself. But deep research, it could allow me to actually find content specific to what I want.

    24. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    25. AL

      Um, and what I usually do is I, I tell it to only, only search for really academic, uh, merit-backed, like, research-

    26. AM

      Hmm

    27. AL

      ... and formulate an argument for me. Um, and the content itself is actually very good, and I cite it pretty often.

    28. AM

      So for you, Abi, do you have any particular tricks you use or things you do to try to get it to sort of perform the way you want it to?

    29. YA

      Um, I think, yeah, first and foremost, kind of like narrowing the research parameters, I think, is helpful by feeding it kind of the sources that I want it to-

    30. AM

      Mm-hmm

  16. 41:43 – 49:24

    Cheating, challenges, and advice for students

    1. AL

      because, like, that'll help with your learning, that's, that's definitely true, but then we're gonna get to a point, um, with AI, maybe we already have, but it, it'll keep going down the line where actually, like, AI-produced work is going to be, like, much, much better than, than humans, to the point where why are we just, like, dismissing what, what an AI can produce?

    2. AM

      Yeah.

    3. AL

      And I think soon we'll get to the point where we'll, we'll have ChatGPT, like, it'll have a much bigger impact in, let's say, like, writing some report. Um, but then teachers will, and students will also have to adapt to how they can show their growth while also, like, using AI to its fullest because it can complete so many great tasks that humans can't.

    4. YA

      I think it's, it's just hard to answer that question because I feel like we're redefining-

    5. AM

      No, he just said it was a great question.

    6. AL

      [laughs]

    7. AM

      He just said it was a great question. No, Yabi, go ahead, go ahead.

    8. YA

      [laughs] Um, I was just saying, I think it's just- it's, it's hard-

    9. AM

      Mm-hmm

    10. YA

      ... because I feel like we're, like, kind of redefining what, like, cheating means.

    11. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    12. YA

      So I feel like I don't even know what cheating means anymore. Um, so I feel like that's why it's, like, kind of hard.

    13. AM

      Yeah, no, it's a fair question, and a fair response. What advice would you give to high school students right now about using these tools?

    14. YA

      I don't know. Something that I think I've-- like, a lot of my friends were talking about, even, like, before I came, came here, I was, you know, staying with my friends from college, and we were just, like, talking about... I was asking their experiences about, like, ChatGPT and AI. Um, and one of my friends was like: I feel like if I had ChatGPT in high school-... I wouldn't be where I am today. Um, and I asked her, like: "Well, what do you mean by that?" [lips smack] And she said, "I feel like I would just be stupider." I feel like-

    15. AL

      Hmm

    16. YA

      ... that's just the best way she put it. Um, and so I thought about that, and I fe- I feel like I can somewhat see that point, but I think the way that, like, AI is developing, at least AI usage, I feel like we're noticing kinda like a shift, at least, you know, anecdotally, from what I see, a shift away from kinda using it as like a cheat use case or a, you know, a use case to like, you know, take the easier path-

    17. AL

      Mm-hmm

    18. YA

      ... but more so to just, like, improve, like, your productivity and, like, learning. And I think, like, through that lens, I think the advice like I would give is to kind of like, you know, have, like, an intrinsic motivation... I mean, that's hard advice, but I feel like, you know, you just have, like, that motivation to learn, and I think you can really use ChatGPT to kinda help you, but don't use it as a crutch at the same time. I think you just have to hold yourself accountable in kinda not using it to get the answer and more so to help you kinda understand things better. Um, but I think that's, that's hard when you're in high school.

    19. AL

      Mm-hmm.

    20. YA

      But I think it allows you to kinda cut through the noise and do things that you actually enjoy versus, you know, things that are kinda like assigned to you-

    21. AL

      Mm-hmm

    22. YA

      ... I guess.

    23. AL

      Yeah, definitely. I'd say, um, for high school students right now, I'd say be wary. Um, I've noticed that throughout my time, I mean, I started learning about it in high school, and I definitely saw the dangers of it, uh, with complacency and, and getting used to it, uh, doing all the things. And then, when you, when you actually get to the test and when you actually get to challenge what you've learned, you have less of that knowledge. But I've noticed that, uh, these past few months, I've really kind of pushed ChatGPT to its limits and pushed myself to my limits, and I've noticed that I can accomplish a lot more than I used to. Um, I remember in high school, I was, I was working on some project. It was a image classifier, um, project, and it took me a long time, a lot of documents, uh, to, to actually learn and understand how to do this. But now you can, you can utilise AI and actually get this done much faster, and improve on it, and produce it, and continue and, and, uh, and iterate on it to make a much better product. And I, I would encourage high schoolers to, to find a passion and, and really dive into that and, and get the most out of it. But at the same time, be wary and stick to the, the concepts that teachers are teaching you, and, and don't just, uh, automatically dismiss it because AI can do it for you. How would you like teachers to be teaching now?

    24. YA

      I think, and, and this is a bold take, but I think that eventually we're gonna get to a point where, where education and the lectures are fully done by AI.

    25. AL

      Hmm.

    26. YA

      I think all, all the content that we're consuming ourselves will be given by AI because I've noticed anecdotally that each student learns differently, and once AI gets to a point where there's, um, like, a multimodal system, where you can visualise things, and, and it'll provide you, like, YouTube videos that it creates itself, um, we're gonna get to a point where students learn better through AI. And I think teachers will then be focused more on, like, the social, social skills, social capital, um, part of it, and mentorship and how to use AI because, um, I think everyone's worried about jobs as well, but a- adaptation is the new job security for, for students and for up-and-coming, um, people that are trying to enter the job market.

    27. AL

      That's why I kind of wondered though, is I think that AI has this great place as a companion, as tutor, and whatnot, and a lot of material can kind of replace the textbook, but you me- brought up the word mentorship. I just see... Personally speaking, I think there's so much value to, to me, be able to go to an electrical engineer that actually had an electrical engineering job, you know, a computer science teacher who actually has done the work of it, too. And so do you see that kind of, as sort of the future, is the idea, is that the AI is the really good TA, it's the textbook, it's doing this sort of stuff, but then you want to still pe- keep humans in the centre?

    28. YA

      I guess, like, in terms of, like, teaching and learning, I feel like, obviously, who teaches you impacts what you learn and how you, like, apply it on later on in life. And, like, I feel like you can, you know, learn the same concept in biology, like mitosis. It's the same concept, but, like, who teaches you, like, kind of really changes that, you know?

    29. AL

      Mm-hmm.

    30. YA

      So I think that's where the human aspect of, like, learning really comes in, and it, it's what makes it important, and I think that human connection. So I think it's, it's somewhat like of... uh, I think I envision, like, somewhat of, like, a hybrid kind of, of those two things, um, where I think we can get a standard from AI because it's helpful, because it's easy, because it's, like, you know, accessible. And then kind of that mentorship element comes in with the touch and, like, how you apply it, and especially how you think about it in terms of ethics. I think maybe we'll- we'll start shifting away from just, like, learning how to do, do, do, and thinking about, like, how does this impact people? You know, how can we help others through these technologies?

  17. 49:24 – 59:38

    The future of learning with AI

    1. YA

      the future is going. Um, where humans stand in that, uh, definitely, like-

    2. AL

      ... they'll, they'll need to, like, stay in the loop. I think just letting, letting AI go is, is dangerous, and it isn't, uh, feasible for, for the upcoming future.

    3. AM

      What do you think your job is gonna look like 10 years from now?

    4. YA

      I think it'll, it'll be, it'll be a mixed bag, I think.

    5. AM

      Mm.

    6. YA

      Because I think because my job is pretty, like, kind of external-facing, people-facing, I think right now, kind of the tension or the strife I see with, like, AI usage in like creative fields is like, "Oh, like, I don't want to read something made by like ChatGPT," or like, you know? And there's, like, a lot of critique on, like, the usage of em dashes, like the comma- [chuckles]

    7. AM

      I, I, one, I only want to read things by, by deep research, too. I use em dashes all the time now-

    8. YA

      [chuckles]

    9. AM

      ... just to annoy people.

    10. YA

      Yeah. And so, like, yeah, there's like a lot of like kind of critique about people, like, not wanting to read content that's, like, AI-generated.

    11. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    12. YA

      And, like, I see that, like, on social media. I see that in, like, more niche communities, like Substack. I feel like I've read like at least 15 Substack articles, like, kind of bashing the uses of, like, em dashes, like.

    13. AM

      Yeah, it's- uh, there's... Reactions are interesting, but like, to me, it puts- I put more value now on autobiographical stuff. If, if somebody's writing a generic thing that anything could rate- you know, could anything could create, then I don't really care as much. But if somebody's like, "Here's my experience doing this," that has way more value to me personally.

    14. YA

      It's just really about like, I think in the future, at least in, in, like, marketing, it's, like, probably just navigating that tension and seeing-

    15. AM

      Mm

    16. YA

      ... like, what audiences, like, kind of resonate to. So maybe, who knows, in like five years, I feel like AI-generated content might be, like, the norm and, like, acceptable-

    17. AM

      Mm

    18. YA

      ... and, like, us as, like, marketers are kind of, like, pushing in that creative input and for that, like, you know, AI-generated output. But I feel like that's, that's still long years ahead, but.

    19. AM

      What is your biggest fear? I'll give you mine, okay? I think these are incredible technologies. I think there's- I think everybody has the right to kind of approach this however they want, and if somebody says, "I'm taking time- my time," that's fine. My concern is, I think there's a lot of value. I think it's an incredible learning tool, and, and I find that people can get up to speed very quickly in six months. I think six months' time spending this stuff, you can then go into a company, and you can do a lot of value, or you can create a company and do this stuff. And my concern is that people are kind of hesitating too much and not asking a question, and maybe we're not doing enough to teach or communicate everything we're doing there. And I fear- my fear is people missing out.

    20. AL

      I kind of have like a, like an opposite, opposite view.

    21. AM

      Mm-hmm.

    22. AL

      I think that maybe, maybe specifically because I'm, I'm inserted in this education, um, that some people will, will try to, like, find a way around, like, everything that's traditionally education-

    23. AM

      Mm

    24. AL

      ... um, with AI, and there are a lot of loopholes within education. Um, and my fear is that, that you'll, you'll get to the, to the job market, and, and essentially, you- the, the people interviewing you are not gonna ask, like, "Oh, like, if you get this question, how are you gonna put it into AI and solve it?"

    25. AM

      Mm.

    26. AL

      Because AI can solve this question, whatever traditional coding question that you have, but they're really looking for the concepts and for how you, how you adapt and, and solve problems because they need that human aspect as well. Like, humanity is not going away, and my fear is that, um, that, like, the use of this tool is gonna go too far, where they realize that, like, traditional education is still important-

    27. AM

      Mm-hmm

    28. AL

      ... and understanding those concepts is still important. Um, and, and it'll be hard to, like, backtrack from there.

    29. YA

      For me, like, my fear component comes from a place more of like having kind of like knowledge and truth centralised-

    30. AM

      Mm

Episode duration: 59:38

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