Leah Belsky on how AI is transforming education — the OpenAI Podcast Ep. 4

Andrew Mayne 0:00 Hello, I'm Andrew Mayne, and this is the OpenAI Podcast. Today, we're gonna talk about ChatGPT and education. Does it cause brain rot? Is ChatGPT just a tool for cheating? We're gonna speak with Leah Belsky, Head of Education at OpenAI, and a couple students who are active users.

Leah Belsky 0:17 ChatGPT, at this point, is now the world's largest learning platform.

Yabsera 0:20 And it allows you to kind of

Yabsera 0:22 cut through the noise and do things that you actually enjoy.

Leah Belsky 0:24 You know, ChatGPT was gonna unlock the world for this girl, and I was not gonna have to be worried in the same way.

Alaap 0:29 When it comes to learning and exploring ideas, I ask ChatGPT a lot of those questions. [upbeat music]

Andrew Mayne 0:36 Tell me about your journey to OpenAI.

Leah Belsky 0:39 You know, I think ultimately, OpenAI is about a, a mission and about its people, and so I'll tell you at least my, my story. Um, so I came to OpenAI after spending 15 years in the education space, starting at the World Bank and then at Coursera, focused on this mission of making education accessible to the world. Um, and when I- ... And I took on this job with Brad, our COO, he brought, he brought me into the office, and, you know, I was wondering what, what the exact focus of education at OpenAI would be. And, and he sat me down, and he said, "Leah, you know, I want you to go after the moonshot.

Andrew Mayne 1:12 Mm-hmm.

Leah Belsky 1:12 We all have this dream that, that AI could improve human potential, that it could be an effective tutor and a companion for people throughout their lives. Go after that dream-

Andrew Mayne 1:22 Mm-hmm

Leah Belsky 1:23 ... and make sure that once we build that product, everyone in the world can have it." And that's really been the, the North Star, and I thought that was meaningful, you know, from the, the head of go-to-market, the head of revenue-

Andrew Mayne 1:33 Mm-hmm

Leah Belsky 1:33 ... to say, "Go after the biggest transformative moonshot so that the highest in hopes and dreams that we all have for AI in education

Leah Belsky 1:40 can be realized."

Andrew Mayne 1:42 That's pretty inspiring and, and hopeful, the idea of trying to make this widespread as possible. How do you see basically, you know, global impact? How are we gonna, you know, see the effects of this around the world?

Leah Belsky 1:56 Yeah. Well, first thing to say is, like, ChatGPT, at this point, is now the world's largest learning platform.

Andrew Mayne 2:02 Wow!

Leah Belsky 2:02 Learning is one of the top use cases on the platform. At 600 million users-

Andrew Mayne 2:06 Mm

Leah Belsky 2:06 ... that means it is the world's learning destination, and that means learning outside of the educational system. I really see ChatGPT as a new frontier for learning. Um, but we also see that teachers are major adopters of the, of the, of the platform, and they are using that both to get rid of the administrative burden of their own work-

Andrew Mayne 2:24 Mm-hmm

Leah Belsky 2:24 ... but also to, to bring it into their classroom. What's been striking is to just see the global demand for ChatGPT.

Andrew Mayne 2:31 Mm.

Leah Belsky 2:31 So a few weeks ago, we launched a, a program called OpenAI for Countries.

Andrew Mayne 2:35 Mm-hmm.

Leah Belsky 2:35 And we've had ministries all over the world reach out. Estonia, the country of Estonia, was actually one of the first countries that reached out.

Andrew Mayne 2:42 Well, like Estonia makes sense.

Leah Belsky 2:43 Estonia makes sense.

Andrew Mayne 2:44 Yeah.

Leah Belsky 2:44 They are the, they are the top of the world. They have some of the-

Andrew Mayne 2:45 Yeah

Leah Belsky 2:46 ... best PISA scores. They have an amazing educational system. Um, but they were the first to realize, "Wow, this is an opportunity to, like, push students even further-

Andrew Mayne 2:54 Mm

Leah Belsky 2:54 ... and to empower our teachers even further." And after Estonia, it's been one country after another. And what's interesting is that when the countries come to us, you know, they're coming to us because they wanna deploy AI as core infrastructure through their education system. But they're also coming to us because they're feeling, like, the impact of an economic transition.

Andrew Mayne 3:14 Mm-hmm.

Leah Belsky 3:15 And they're realizing that if they are going to be developing an AI-powered economy, they need to, they need to graduate a workforce that ne- learns how to use AI. And so it's not just about creating new AI courses, they need to make sure that every student who leaves their secondary school system has used AI as part of their class. Um, and so it's that, it's that dual focus of these countries. They're looking to be economically competitive. They want to build an AI-ready workforce. They want to be successful in a new AI-powered economy, and they want to improve their education system.

Andrew Mayne 3:48 What are you hearing from educational

Andrew Mayne 3:50 partners and institutions?

Leah Belsky 3:52 So we're hearing a couple things. I think those that have made the investment feel a certain pride that they have equalized access to AI on their campuses.

Andrew Mayne 4:00 Mm-hmm.

Leah Belsky 4:00 They are- They really believe that AI should be core infrastructure for the campus-

Andrew Mayne 4:05 Mm

Leah Belsky 4:05 ... and that it should be open to everyone. They're conscious that, you know, before introducing AI, in many campus, you, you'll be- find a situation where those who are not on financial aid will be buying access to the latest models, and those who don't have access to resources, um, will not. So there's a, there's a pride in, in driving equal access. I think the institutions are also hungry to engage with each other and collaborate and understand what are the top 5 or 10 ways in which faculty are using the tech and bringing it into the classroom. The other type piece of feedback that we're getting, though, is that students are hesitant to use some of the school-provided AI.

Andrew Mayne 4:43 Hmm.

Leah Belsky 4:43 And unless universities make a big point of telling students that, "We're not monitoring this tech, we're not looking at your conversations," students are, are hesitant to adopt it. You know, what's striking is that the generation of students that is in universities right now is the COVID generation.

Andrew Mayne 5:01 Right.

Leah Belsky 5:01 Right? They are used to having some of their first experiences with tech be about, like, Zoom and Global Classroom and having, you know, teachers screaming at them or monitoring and telling them they're not doing their

Leah Belsky 5:12 homework while they're all sitting at home going crazy, and so they're hesitant-

Andrew Mayne 5:17 Yeah

Leah Belsky 5:17 ... about educational technology. And universities are realizing that if they want to engage with students and help students learn in new ways with ChatGPT, they need to build an actual trust with students.

Andrew Mayne 5:27 Yeah, I, I mentioned this before, but, like, I was frustrated because, like, the AI detectors were terrible. Like, there were these AI detect- Like, one, I could sh- show somebody how to write text that would be flagged as AI and also how to prompt a thing to avoid it, and, and that just created this, you know, relationship that started off, if you're using a bad tool like that, you know, you, you take one or two students who didn't cheat and told they're cheaters. That's just...

Leah Belsky 5:51 Yeah. In, in many institutions, I would say we got off onto the wrong foot-

Andrew Mayne 5:55 Yeah

Leah Belsky 5:55 ... with AI in the classroom. Instead of trying to be explicit and establish clear policies on when students should use the tech and when they shouldn't, teachers sort of hid from it.

Andrew Mayne 6:06 Mm-hmm.

Leah Belsky 6:06 Um, we started with policing its use rather than actually sitting there and figuring out how do we actually want to redesign-

Andrew Mayne 6:12 Yeah

Leah Belsky 6:12 ... the way we assess students and the way we assign homework. Um-... but I think we're moving, we're moving beyond that point.

Andrew Mayne 6:18 Yeah, I've been encouraged, and we, we saw-- I remember when I was here, we had one school system that was like, had kind of a knee-jerk reaction, said, "We're banning it." And it was, like, a few months later, they had enough teachers within there going, "Hey, no, this is a really good tool. We know how to teach to this." And they said, "Okay, we're, we're gonna reverse that now." And that was-- it was a, it was very, um, good to see e- energized teachers embrace this and say, "Okay," and wanting their students to under- they knew this was gonna be part of the future. Well, now there's Study Mode. Could you talk a little about

Andrew Mayne 6:50 that?

Leah Belsky 6:50 Um, so Study Mode is, uh, a product we just launched. Um, and it is intended to take, really improve learning in ChatGPT, and take it from an experience that is just focused on giving answers to really guiding a student-

Andrew Mayne 7:03 Mm-hmm

Leah Belsky 7:03 ... to get to the answers. So Study-- in Study Mode, uh, ChatGPT answers Socratically. It personalizes responses to sort of the level of your learning. It understands the context of what you're learning. It c- asks great follow-up questions.

Andrew Mayne 7:17 Mm-hmm.

Leah Belsky 7:17 It asks if you wanna have a quiz on the topic. It encourages you to, to go deeper. Um, and ultimately, this is, this is a, a first step to really leaning into this idea of, of ChatGPT as a, as a tutor.

Andrew Mayne 7:30 So how did this come about? Was there conversations with educators and parents about this?

Leah Belsky 7:35 Um, so Study Mode actually, um, came out of a trip that our team took in India-

Andrew Mayne 7:41 Oh, wow

Leah Belsky 7:41 ... um, where they had a few, where they realized a few things. One, they realized that in a place like India, families were spending a huge percentage of their per capita income on tutors-

Andrew Mayne 7:50 Mm-hmm

Leah Belsky 7:51 ... and after-school help. Um, they also realized that there was just a tremendous will and desire among young people to get to, get to the next level. And so, you know, we began this journey of, like, what would it take to actually get ChatGPT and turn ChatGPT into an even better tutor than it already is? And so we started by, you know, and this was my first, my first experience building, like, an AI product. So we started actually building a, a schema, informed by learning science-

Andrew Mayne 8:16 Mm

Leah Belsky 8:16 ... and informed by pedagogical experts, that said, "How should ChatGPT respond?" It's not just gonna give answers, but it's gonna actually help you, you learn. Um, and then we worked with open- with experts around the world to gather what we call golden examples-

Andrew Mayne 8:29 Mm-hmm

Leah Belsky 8:30 ... of how ChatGPT would ideally respond. Is the tone encouraging? Does it encourage curiosity? Does it, um, cater a response to the level of a student's need? And through that process of sort of going back and forth and training the model, that's how Study merged, Study Mode emerged. And I would say, you know, we're, we're super excited to see the feedback on this product-

Andrew Mayne 8:51 Mm

Leah Belsky 8:51 ... out in the world, but it's also very much a beginning.

Andrew Mayne 8:54 Yeah, it's a starting point.

Leah Belsky 8:55 It's a starting point. You know, we've-- we're really only in the early stages of pushing the way in which the model can respond in multimodal ways.

Andrew Mayne 9:02 Mm.

Leah Belsky 9:02 You know, one day you could imagine asking Study Mode to give you samples of a sort of a biology assignment, to explain organic chemistry, and to pop up interactive diagrams, or to nudge you, "You know, three weeks down the road, do you remember you told me that you wanted to ace this year's organic chemistry-

Andrew Mayne 9:19 Mm

Leah Belsky 9:19 ... exam? Can- shall we dig back into the topic now?" It could be proactive and really sort of travel with you over time. And I think over time, the, the hope is to get Study Mode to that point.

Andrew Mayne 9:30 That'd be great. Yeah, I can see that combined with spaced repetition, then you could have just a really good tool that doesn't just help you pass the test, but help you remember it for a long time.

Leah Belsky 9:39 Right.

Andrew Mayne 9:39 And I think you, you touched about something there, which is, that in, uh, you know, certain households, they can afford to have private tutors, tutoring programs, great, and we talk about kind of the differences

Andrew Mayne 9:51 in educational opportunities. You can have a bunch of kids that go to the same school, but the parents that are able to have the kid go to a tutor are gonna be in a situation where the child's gonna have a higher chance of an outcome. Now, you see this as a leveller.

Leah Belsky 10:04 Look, I think the first place where AI is having a huge impact in education is not even in the classroom. It's outside of the classroom-

Andrew Mayne 10:11 Mm

Leah Belsky 10:11 ... where it's equalizing access to what's really like adult support.

Andrew Mayne 10:15 Mm-hmm.

Leah Belsky 10:16 There are many students out in the world who don't have access to a quality teacher. They don't have access to tutors. They don't have access to parents who are gonna sit down and help them. And now with AI, they can have this companion who can encourage them, who can give feedback on their homework, on their writing, who can help, help them answer tough questions. Um, we, we formed a, a lab of, of student users-

Andrew Mayne 10:38 Mm

Leah Belsky 10:39 ... of ChatGPT. It's called ChatGPT Lab. I think you're gonna talk to a few of the students. And one thing that really struck me is, they said using, using AI gave them confidence.

Andrew Mayne 10:50 Mm-hmm.

Leah Belsky 10:50 Um, and it got to them a place where formerly they would feel stuck, or they would feel discouraged. Um, one of the students told a story of being in the classroom, um, as a computer science student.

Andrew Mayne 11:01 Mm-hmm.

Leah Belsky 11:02 And for many years, she would get stuck in her consu- computer science courses, and she started to give up. She couldn't understand the textbooks. But when she used ChatGPT out of school as a, as a tutor, she started to feel like, "Oh, I can ask questions. I can understand this. Like, I have confidence, and maybe I can actually continue and move forward." And so I think it's as much... You know, if you think about what tutors do in the world, they give you encouragement, they give you a sense of confidence that, "I can, and I want, and I can move forward." And then, of course, they deliver the content in contextual and personal ways. I think ChatGPT can do all of these things.

Andrew Mayne 11:34 So

Andrew Mayne 11:35 when it comes to workforce productivity, how does that work on a personal scale? What advice would you give to people?

Leah Belsky 11:41 So all the recent data shows that workers who use AI in the workforce are incredibly more productive.

Andrew Mayne 11:47 Mm-hmm.

Leah Belsky 11:47 Um, it's particularly true in fields like professional services and financial students, but, you know, really any graduate who, who leaves institution today needs to know how to use AI in their daily life, and that will come in both when they're applying for jobs, as well as when they start, start their new job. And so one of the big reasons why institutions are now deploying AI as core infrastructure about-- across campus is they wanna make sure their students leave with those workforce skills. Um, the, the data shows that seven in 10 employers would rather hire someone with AI skills over someone who had up to 10 years of experience in a given function.

Andrew Mayne 12:24 I've seen that. I, I run a firm where I help put together teams to work with companies who are trying to deploy AI, and the thing that we look for in-... people we work with is basically AI skills. Somebody who spent six months learning how to use this stuff, I don't really care what their LinkedIn or actually their curriculum looked like, I just wanna know, have you been using it? Can you use it?

Leah Belsky 12:42 Yeah. Look, I think the other sort of core literacy that's gonna become important now is coding.

Andrew Mayne 12:48 Mm-hmm.

Leah Belsky 12:49 You know, for a while it was, you know, there was a moment where we thought all students need to learn coding, and then I think there was a big focus on engineers. But now with vibe coding, and now that there-

Andrew Mayne 12:57 Mm

Leah Belsky 12:58 ... are all sorts of tools that make coding easier, I think we're gonna get to a place where every student should not only learn how to use AI generally, but they should learn to use AI to create-

Andrew Mayne 13:07 Mm-hmm

Leah Belsky 13:07 ... to create image, to create, create applications, to, to write code, and I think sort of basic coding is gonna become a core literacy that's gonna be important as well.

Andrew Mayne 13:16 Yeah, I, I get- I hear people go like, "Why learn to code, 'cause AI codes for you?" And it's like, like, why learn to read if books are full of text?

Leah Belsky 13:23 Yeah.

Andrew Mayne 13:23 I was like, like, no, the world still runs on these things, and it-- and I think, yeah, it's a very valuable... You know, one of my colleagues, you know, he does a lot of financial stuff, and he's creating new calculators and building the little tools for this all the time. I build stuff for myself, for learning and whatever, and, you know, I already knew how to code, but it just makes it so much easier, and knowing what the code does is effective.

Leah Belsky 13:42 Yeah, absolutely. So I'm of the view that as coding becomes something that's easier, the ability to understand code, to create it, and to bug it is gonna become a core literacy. That's gonna become increasingly more important.

Andrew Mayne 13:56 Yeah, I think that's great advice. I think just the more time people spend trying to use these tools, trying different things with these tools... And one of the things I've heard that works really well is just meeting on a regular basis with other people, whether it's at a workplace, you know, like have once a week or once a month to get together and talk about stuff, or students sharing what they've learned. So, uh,

Andrew Mayne 14:15 I- there's been some sort of sensational headlines talking about how AI can cause brain rot when it comes to education.

Leah Belsky 14:22 Look, I, I hear you, and it's, and it's, it's one of these questions I get asked every day. AI is ultimately a tool-

Andrew Mayne 14:28 Mm-hmm

Leah Belsky 14:28 ... and what matters most in the education space is how that tool is used. Learning takes struggle. It takes working with information, it takes processing it. If students use AI as an answer machine-

Andrew Mayne 14:39 Mm

Leah Belsky 14:39 ... they're not gonna learn, and so I think that's what people are, are worried about. And so part of our journey here is really to help students and educators use AI in ways that will expand critical thinking, that will expand creativity. And, and it, and you can-- you don't need to read complex studies to know that AI used in certain ways is positive or negative.

Andrew Mayne 14:59 Mm.

Leah Belsky 14:59 I think of my daughter, right? She's learning long division right now. It takes a certain amount of struggle. [chuckles] There are some tears involved. If I were to hand her a calculator and said, "Don't do the division problem, just put it into, into AI"-

Andrew Mayne 15:10 Mm

Leah Belsky 15:10 ... "are you gonna learn long division?" She wouldn't. But at the same time, you know, down the road, as she's learning advanced math, I anticipate I can give her that calculator, and she'll be able to u- do math at a higher level than she otherwise would. Um, AI use is, is no different. It needs to be used in a way that drives feedback, that gives people [chuckles] personal tutoring, that helps you ask and answer questions in, in different ways. Um, that's how we're gonna advance learning.

Andrew Mayne 15:37 Yeah, I read-- Uh, there was one study that just recently made the news, and I actually sat down, and I read it, and it was saying if you copy-paste answers, you don't learn, which was just like, wow!

Leah Belsky 15:45 Exactly.

Andrew Mayne 15:46 Well-

Leah Belsky 15:46 It's like if I were try- if I were training for a marathon, and you said like: "Hey, Leah, can I give you a scooter?"

Andrew Mayne 15:51 Mm.

Leah Belsky 15:51 And for some of these training runs, you'd like take a scooter down the, down the road, I wouldn't get into more shape.

Andrew Mayne 15:56 Yeah.

Leah Belsky 15:56 That, that was very similar to that study. [chuckles]

Andrew Mayne 15:58 Yeah, and I, I, I think the frustrating thing is like I think there really are important questions to, to be asked about this. I do think that, you know, critical thinking skills, we have to think about how we develop these and how we pursue that. I get a little frustrated, though, when I see-- I, again, I, again, I'm sure there's a real good defense of that study, but I see studies like, like this is... You're saying an obvious thing. The thing we need to think about is how do you actually use these tools? How can you improve your critical thinking skills? And I think that's gonna be, you know, an open-end question we're gonna have to keep asking ourselves.

Leah Belsky 16:26 Yeah. Look, part of the reason why we created, uh, Study Mode, which is essentially a tutoring experience for students-

Andrew Mayne 16:32 Mm

Leah Belsky 16:32 ... is so students wouldn't have to learn how to prompt the model-

Andrew Mayne 16:35 Yeah

Leah Belsky 16:35 ... in ways that would give feedback, or quiz, or, or drive learning. Instead, it would be a mode that you would enter where the model itself would push you-

Andrew Mayne 16:44 Mm-hmm

Leah Belsky 16:44 ... and would guide you towards answers, and personalize, and give context, and scaffold knowledge. Um, so we're on this journey to create an experience in ChatGPT where a student doesn't have to know how to use it in certain ways.

Andrew Mayne 16:58 Mm.

Leah Belsky 16:58 Um, and I think that's where you're gonna really see, um, the boundaries of learning being advanced.

Andrew Mayne 17:02 Yeah, and I'm ex- I'm excited because I, I'm hearing kind of anecdotal stories from parents where they'll, while supervised, but they'll let their kid start a conversation with ChatGPT, and you quickly realize that ChatGPT has infinite patience to talk about frogs. You can never exhaust it. It'll talk about frogs forever, and that budding herpetologist might all of a sudden, you know, realize that they really like talking about this, even though their parents don't.

Leah Belsky 17:28 One of the things that's magical about ChatGPT is it is patient.

Andrew Mayne 17:32 Mm-hmm.

Leah Belsky 17:32 Infinitely so. No question you ask ChatGPT is, is ever stupid.

Andrew Mayne 17:37 Mm.

Leah Belsky 17:37 It will always respond. It will always give you an honest, reasonable answer. And two, you know, half of learning is about feeling confident and inspired to learn. One of the things we always said at Coursera is, you know, it's one thing to build amazing courses and amazing tech, but to really get a kid to learn, you need to have them feel like, "I can learn-

Andrew Mayne 17:55 Mm-hmm

Leah Belsky 17:56 ... and I want to learn." And I think a lot of what AI is doing in the education

Leah Belsky 18:00 space is, is giving people that scaffolding to have confidence that they can dive, dive in, and they, and they can learn. So one of the reasons I came to OpenAI was actually also connected to my daughter. Um, she is, she is dyslexic, and for years, I would watch her brother come down in the morning and read the newspaper, and I would think to myself and think, You know, how is this brilliant little girl gonna actually learn how to access the world?

Andrew Mayne 18:23 Mm.

Leah Belsky 18:23 How is she gonna learn a- about current events? And the summer before I joined OpenAI, we launched Advanced Voice Mode.

Andrew Mayne 18:29 Mm-hmm.

Leah Belsky 18:30 Um, and I remember handing her the phone, and I said: "Zoey, why don't you try talking with ChatGPT?" And she said, "Hey, ChatGPT, my mom is worried that [chuckles] I'm not gonna learn about current events 'cause I can't read the newspaper like my brother. Can you tell me what's going on in the world?" And what was so poignant is I remember ChatGPT responding and saying-... you know, "Sure, Zoe, what are you interested in? What do you wanna learn about in the world today?" And from there, the conversation went, went on, and they were talking about all her interests in space and robots, and I realized in that moment that, you know, ChatGPT was gonna unlock the world-

Andrew Mayne 19:04 Mm-hmm

Leah Belsky 19:04 ... for this girl, and I was not gonna have to be worried in the same way. Um-

Andrew Mayne 19:09 That's, that's powerful. I'm, I'm excited to see how it helps with issues like that, uh, accessibility issues, and I think that it's gonna be interesting to see where we are a few years from now. Uh, Leah, thank you so much for talking with me. This has been very interesting. I'm excited to see where these things go next.

Leah Belsky 19:26 Awesome. Great talking to you, Andrew.

Andrew Mayne 19:30 I'd also like to know a little bit more about you both, too. So, Yabi, could you tell me what you're studying right now?

Yabsera 19:36 Yeah, um, so I actually just finished up my undergraduate degree in communication at USC. Um, and then I'm going to enter the first semester of my master's program in business analytics, also at USC.

Andrew Mayne 19:47 Okay, cool, so why did you wanna choose that?

Yabsera 19:51 Um, initially, when I came to college, I wasn't really sure, kinda like, the subject matter I wanted to study. Um, so I took, like, a lot of time to take GE courses to kinda explore. Um, and then through there, I think I, I liked the more of the human component of, like, research and theory. Um, and I found that communication was, like, a really good major to, like, kinda explore that through. Um, and then throughout, like, you know, my college career, I started taking a lot of stat classes, um, and then, you know, gave me the basis for, like, analytical thinking, and I really wanted to kinda add that on. So I added a data science minor. Um, and then kinda having that, like, creative and analytical, um, component come together, I think it led me to business analytics, so-

Andrew Mayne 20:29 That's a- it's a very interesting combination there. That's pretty cool, the way that came about. So, Alaap, tell us what you're studying.

Alaap 20:36 Yeah, I'm studying electrical engineering and computer science, uh, at Berkeley. I'm a rising sophomore.

Andrew Mayne 20:41 What brought you into those fields?

Alaap 20:43 Um, I think growing up, I grew up in the Bay Area, so I've been exposed to a lot of tech, uh, around me, and I'm also, like, a really hands-on guy. I like, uh, fidgeting with circuits or playing around with code, and I really like finding solutions to some issues that I see.

Andrew Mayne 20:59 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 20:59 Um, and I found that one of my favorite ways to do that was through code and through hardware engineering, so I thought this would be a, a good combination of the two.

Andrew Mayne 21:06 Did you like to build things when you were younger?

Alaap 21:08 Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like, I'd build, like, a solar-powered car, uh-

Andrew Mayne 21:12 Oh, of course. Right.

Alaap 21:13 Yeah, just, like, a small one-

Andrew Mayne 21:14 Sure

Alaap 21:14 ... and then I built a big one later. [chuckles]

Andrew Mayne 21:16 Oh, yeah, obviously. [chuckles]

Alaap 21:18 Yeah. But yeah, just, just anything I could just, like, really see just in, in person and visualize.

Andrew Mayne 21:25 So you guys are both pretty forward-thinking. Could you tell me what was kind of your

Andrew Mayne 21:30 first big aha moment with AI, any kind of AI in general?

Alaap 21:33 I remember I was a junior in high school, and, and this kind of buzz of, "Oh, do you know- have you heard of ChatGPT?"-

Andrew Mayne 21:39 Mm

Alaap 21:39 ... kind of started going around. Um, and that was, like... That was like, obviously, AI had existed before.

Andrew Mayne 21:45 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 21:45 Um, I had witnessed, like, the ASIMO robot. I don't know if you've heard of that.

Andrew Mayne 21:48 Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

Alaap 21:48 But yeah, so humanoids, but, but really, like, seeing, like, an AI that I could actually use and interact with was ChatGPT, and we're all huddling around my computer, and I just made an account with OpenAI, and I had an assignment on how to write my To Kill a Mockingbird essay. [chuckles] And I was like, "If it can, if it can really do anything, let's see how it writes."

Andrew Mayne 22:08 Right.

Alaap 22:08 And boom, it wrote me a full To Kill a Mockingbird essay. I did not use it, but, uh, it was definitely cool to see and just, like, a moment that I really remember.

Andrew Mayne 22:16 Yeah, I wanna ask you a little bit more about that.

Alaap 22:18 Yeah.

Andrew Mayne 22:18 Um, so how about you?

Yabsera 22:20 Um, I think for me, it was honestly funny, 'cause I think a lot of people started off with, like, an academic or, like, study use case for it. But then I think when I stumbled across from it, I remember I was, like, a sophomore, my first semester of sophomore year in college, um, and I saw, like, the social media posts about, like, how, you know, you can kinda use ChatGPT for, like, certain, like... you know, write a story for me. And so I think my first prompt to it was to, like, write fan fiction-

Andrew Mayne 22:46 Mm-hmm

Yabsera 22:46 ... which is, like, really funny, and, like, it was just, like, a random use case, and I remember showing my roommates, um, and they all thought it was pretty stupid, honestly.

Andrew Mayne 22:53 [chuckles]

Yabsera 22:54 Um, and so I think it was just, like, a lot of mundane, random use cases. Um, and, and then I think it was, like, later on that I actually started using it, like, academically, specifically when I started doing, like, more coding-oriented classes. But I think that aha moment for me is the fact that you can use it for, like, day-to-day tasks and less so for, like, educational research.

Andrew Mayne 23:13 I can't let this drop. You mentioned fan fiction.

Yabsera 23:16 [chuckles]

Andrew Mayne 23:16 What fan fiction?

Yabsera 23:18 Um, so just to give context, I feel like when I was younger, as most people do-

Andrew Mayne 23:23 There's no judgement. You don't have to context.

Yabsera 23:25 [chuckles]

Andrew Mayne 23:25 There's no judgement here.

Yabsera 23:25 Thank you. This feels like ChatGPT. Um-

Alaap 23:28 But don't say that to him. [chuckles]

Andrew Mayne 23:30 Yeah. [chuckles] I see what you're saying. That's great. [chuckles]

Yabsera 23:33 Um, but, um, so yeah, so I think there was, like, a lot of different kind of, like, outlandish, like, fan fictions, like, kinda going on, and I think one of the communities that I thought was, like, pretty funny was, like, the Shrek fan fiction community. [chuckles]

Andrew Mayne 23:46 [chuckles]

Yabsera 23:46 [chuckles]

Andrew Mayne 23:48 Sorry. I'm sorry. I thought you said the Shrek fan fiction community. Could you say this again?

Yabsera 23:53 [chuckles] Yes, the Shrek fan fiction community.

Andrew Mayne 23:55 Okay, so you did say that.

Yabsera 23:57 Yeah, and so I think... I don't know why that was, like, the top-of-mind kinda trope that I wanted to prompt, and back then, it was, like, super early, so it wasn't, like, the outputs weren't as good.

Andrew Mayne 24:06 Right.

Yabsera 24:06 But, um, I feel like this could definitely, you know, be on one of those platforms that they write fan fiction all the time.

Andrew Mayne 24:12 It's, it's interesting because, like, part of, as you know, part of the value of fan fiction is it's a way for fans to participate, and, and the AI can produce something that's cool, that can kind of appeal to you, and you showed your friends, and they were like, what?

Yabsera 24:26 They were like, "This is stupid." [chuckles]

Andrew Mayne 24:28 But for you, it created a neat moment. I think that's a lot of things we forget. Like, I write, and I love to write. Part of the writing experience for me, though, is the writing. And people are like, "Oh, you worked at OpenAI. You can just ChatGPT." It's like, that's like asking somebody to learn to play the electric guitar. Are you just gonna have, you know, play electric guitar music all the time instead of actually playing the guitar? Like, no, I, I learned to write, to write, to do these things, so I think that kind of gets overlooked. But that, where you can say, "Hey, what about this scenario?" And Shrek fan fiction is, like, the most sweet and innocent thing I think I possibly could have heard.

Yabsera 24:58 [chuckles]

Andrew Mayne 25:00 So how would you say your professors have been adapting?

Yabsera 25:03 I think in terms of, like, actual assignments and work, I feel like-... the way I'm feeling about it is, like, similar to, like, how I felt when, like, when we were younger in, like, elementary school, and we were transitioning be- between, like, doing, like, hand division to, like, using calculators to, like, take on, like, bigger tasks-

Andrew Mayne 25:19 Mm-hmm

Yabsera 25:19 ... like you said. So I feel like it's, like, that kind of transitional period, where it's like, um, I think a lot of- a lot less,

Yabsera 25:25 like, like, automation- like, automative tasks. So, like, I feel like in my communication courses, like, I'm seeing a lot less, like, at, like, as, "Define this, like, term," kind of question, and more about, like, "How do you apply this term? What does this mean in, like, a bigger context?" So I feel like there's a lot more focus on, like, meaning and, like, intentionality, as opposed to kind of more, like, basic understanding.

Andrew Mayne 25:48 Mm-hmm.

Yabsera 25:48 Um, and I think, you know, a lot of test-taking forms are actually, like, more open format than I thought they would be. Um, and, and because of that, the questions have also shifted to ask more of, like, you know, questions that are like, you know, could be extrapolated to, like, bigger meanings, as opposed to kind of, like, the typical, like, "Define this term."

Andrew Mayne 26:07 Mm-hmm.

Yabsera 26:07 So I feel like that's how I've seen a change.

Alaap 26:10 Yeah, I've actually noticed that in, in my CS classes. Um, some professors, obviously, they, they want us to not use it for these, like, simple homework assignments-

Andrew Mayne 26:20 Mm-hmm

Alaap 26:20 ... that are just, like, check for, uh, check to see if you actually remember the concept. But for bigger projects, we actually got, uh, two tracks we could take. One is with using AI, and one is without using AI.

Andrew Mayne 26:33 Mm.

Alaap 26:33 And I thought it was really interesting that the professor is kind of, you know, greeting this, this new concept and, and adapting to it. And the professor said, "With AI, we're gonna give you a bit of a harder assignment-

Andrew Mayne 26:45 Yeah.

Alaap 26:45 ... and we're gonna push you more, and you're gonna have to write a reflection on what AI gave you, so that you also get the concepts that you would- that AI would tell you." Um, but with the non-AI, you would kind of do a more traditional project, but with AI, you could, like, push it much further. So it was great to-- that the professor was allowing you to choose between the two.

Andrew Mayne 27:03 Which did you choose?

Alaap 27:04 I chose non-AI.

Andrew Mayne 27:05 Okay.

Alaap 27:06 But, um, yeah, I know a lot of people who did choose AI.

Andrew Mayne 27:09 Why did you choose non-AI?

Alaap 27:11 I think that for me, I, I wasn't the, I wasn't the most, like, technically, like, sound with the concept that the project was about.

Andrew Mayne 27:24 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 27:25 And I remember that I had a few features that I myself wanted to implement in this, in this kind of mini game. But with AI, it was like, you can ask it to brainstorm and help you get features, and you can implement those with AI. But I kind of knew what I, I wanted to do from the get-go.

Andrew Mayne 27:41 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 27:41 And because I already had my ideas, I use AI a lot for brainstorming, but because I already had my ideas, I was like: "Oh, I might as well just really just, like, focus on implementing the ideas that I had already come up with."

Andrew Mayne 27:53 Yeah. That's a, a- it's a thing that comes up a lot, 'cause I think some professors, they want the students to learn the fundamentals, which is important, because if you learn Python, you really need to learn Python.

Alaap 28:01 Right.

Andrew Mayne 28:01 And I think it's gonna be helpful for even for decades to come. We need to have people who understand how these things work. Uh, but I've seen some programs where they're not even teaching them how to use AI for, like, code generation, which to me sounds like malpractice, you know. Which again, again, just that's my take on that. But I think that I like the idea that there's a different courses, and the idea that if you're gonna use AI, then great, you have to do bigger challenges. And I've had people ask me about this, "What do we do if people can use ChatGPT?" I'm like: "Have students do bigger projects." You know, where they would've done a book report before, have them make a music video. You know, just make bigger things and do more. I, I think there are valid concerns when people are looking at something that's gonna change the way that we work and trying to figure out the outcome, and so I, I understand some of the hesitation there. And I do think that critical thinking skills are important, and I think this technology is trying to adapt to that. Because if it's just another thing that people copy-paste from, then, like, yeah, you're not gonna learn. So OpenAI is rolling out a new feature, Study with ChatGPT, which seems to be kind of very interesting approach with that. Have you guys tried this?

Alaap 28:58 Yep.

Andrew Mayne 28:59 What's your... How would you describe it?

Alaap 29:01 Um, I would say that Study Mode is, is a cha- it's challenging. Um, and it, it forces, forces the user to actually challenge themselves with any sort of content. So I, myself, when I tried it, I, I asked it to teach me about AI.

Andrew Mayne 29:16 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 29:16 And I also tried this with the regular s- chat mode, and it just gave me a big list of-

Andrew Mayne 29:22 Yeah

Alaap 29:22 ... "Oh, AI is this. There's this type of learning, this type of learning." And when I asked Study Mode,

Alaap 29:28 it actually just didn't even answer my question, and gave me three questions to understand what I really wanted.

Andrew Mayne 29:34 Hmm.

Alaap 29:34 And it said: "Do you have a specific topic that you really want to get into? How much do you know about this? What are you doing right now?" And I got it to a specific topic, which is fine-tuning, and it really broke it down one by one. And I think the biggest thing about Study Mode is that it doesn't just assume that you remember it and move on. Maybe after a few minutes, it'll go back and say, "Oh, here's a little, uh, mental check, a little sanity check. Do you remember this?" And you'll have to answer that again, because in our brains, that's what's really, like, forming those connections, our neural connections, and actually helping us remember these concepts. And I think that Study Mode does a really great job. If you really want to learn a concept and apply that concept and, and understand it to its fullest potential, um, that's when you would use it, when you don't want just a question-answer.

Yabsera 30:22 Yeah. Um, I've also kind of done like a similar, like, side-by-side comparison with Study Mode versus, like, the regular mode, and I think-

Andrew Mayne 30:28 You guys are very analytical. I love this- [chuckles]

Yabsera 30:30 [chuckles]

Andrew Mayne 30:30 ... that you did these AB tests on this.

Alaap 30:32 Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Andrew Mayne 30:33 I played and like: "Oh, this is pretty cool." [chuckles]

Yabsera 30:34 [chuckles] Um, and I think, like, when I... So I was- I think I was, like, trying to- I was doing, like, a research on a very, like, niche topic, um, kind of about, like, EDM and rave culture, and its, like, history in, like, California. And I was like: I feel like that's, like, a really interesting topic to kind of do research on, um, and see what, like, you know, ChatGPT has to say about it. And I remember, um... Well, I guess my usage of, like, kind of ChatGPT for, like, research is, I feel like I always, in the back of my mind, acknowledging that it's, like, an LLM, not very, like-... suited for, like, research unless you kind of have good parameters around it.

Andrew Mayne 31:12 Mm-hmm.

Yabsera 31:12 So usually the way I approach it is that I go through my sources that I find, like through Google, like research papers, and I actually paste that into the chat and ask it to only draw from those parameters, because I wanna keep it, like, more contained and less-

Andrew Mayne 31:23 Mm-hmm

Yabsera 31:24 ... like, general. Um, and so I feel like when I was doing that research into, like, kind of looking into, like, rave culture in California, I found that, like, when I used the Regular Mode and put in the context, it did produce a good output. But with Study Mode, I didn't even really need to use that context because it narrowed the parameters to that back-and-forth chat. Um, and I feel like my learning was more kind of rigorous through there because it's like we're answering questions instead of being, like, fed kind of like long pieces of content information that the Regular Mode gave. So I thought that was, like, a really effective kind of learning method.

Andrew Mayne 31:56 Has this given you more confidence about the future as far as you're finding a role and being able to adapt to whatever's gonna come next, or not?

Alaap 32:04 Definitely. I think, I think there's two sides to, to what OpenAI is producing. Um, I think with this, like, Agent Mode, there, there is that, like, super futuristic look, where you think, "Oh, like, maybe some, like, certain tasks that I used to be doing for my internship, they won't even want me to do."

Andrew Mayne 32:20 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 32:21 But then with Study Mode, it's really, like, drawing it back and thinking about, like, each concept that you're learning in school. And so to me, I think Study Mode's one of the most important modes in, in ChatGPT because it'll actually help you learn, whereas I think people are-- when they're trying to use AI, they're trying to just get the answer.

Andrew Mayne 32:40 Yeah.

Alaap 32:40 Um, so yeah.

Andrew Mayne 32:43 I'm, I'm, I'm excited as a lifelong learner, as every time we have a new tool like this, to continuously play with it and to see where this is heading. I use ChatGPT all the time. I'm, I'm gonna admit that here. I don't spend a lot of time on social media. I was never really a big social media person other than, like, for news. What has been your experience? Do you spend... Like, how is-- Like, what's a normal day for you? And then also, like, let's say, how much social media are you using versus ChatGPT?

Yabsera 33:09 For me, I think-- So I actually, not recently, about like a year ago, um, kind of decided to take a step back from social media usage, just, uh, particularly like TikTok.

Andrew Mayne 33:20 Mm-hmm.

Yabsera 33:20 Um, just 'cause, um, I feel like I was just, like, getting a lot of content in one place in, like, a di- like, a digestible manner, which is, like, what the convenience of it is. But I feel like I started getting too used to that convenience, and like, like, I feel like I was just, like, kind of passively consuming content without really, like, researching or fact, fact-checking it as much. I feel like it wasn't really great.

Andrew Mayne 33:42 That's the whole point of TikTok. [chuckles]

Yabsera 33:44 Yeah, that's the whole point.

Andrew Mayne 33:45 [chuckles]

Yabsera 33:45 But like, I feel like I was like-- It was making me pretty complacent, I think.

Andrew Mayne 33:48 Yeah.

Yabsera 33:49 Um, and I didn't like that, so I decided to go off it. Um, so in that sense, I think less of usage with, like, video form content. Um, but I do, like, use social media to, like, communicate with my peers and, you know, I guess Instagram for, like, photos and stuff like that.

Andrew Mayne 34:03 Mm-hmm.

Yabsera 34:03 But, um, I think ChatGPT has become more salient in my life, like, 'cause I feel like right now as a student, like, like, 80% of my life is, like, school, and then I guess even the summer, like, another 80% of my life is, like, work. So I feel like I definitely use it, whether it's, like, in terms of that or even, like, day-to-day, like, activities. I feel like much more using ChatGPT than I am social media, but yeah.

Alaap 34:27 Yeah, I think, uh, a big thing is that, like, social media is now trying to be that kind of like a one-stop shop for kind of everything, right? Like, people will now shop on sh- social media.

Andrew Mayne 34:37 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 34:37 People will now find their news on social media, see what their friends are doing. And I think similar to what you were saying, Abi, about, um, like, how social media, you, you kinda started getting a little bit of everything. You know, some people can find that as a good thing, but for me, when I used to go on social media, I realised that I was just scrolling for hours because I realised that I was like: "Oh, like, I'm getting some news content. I'm learning about some things here." And so I was less actual- actually conscious about the time I was spending on social media, and I realised that a lot of that time is just a lot of content that I don't want as well.

Andrew Mayne 35:08 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 35:09 And so I've realised that, that, you know, for my day-to-day, I, I've drawn back on my social media usage. And when it comes to learning and exploring ideas, I ask ChatGPT a lot of those questions because I'm very specific about what I want and what I can get out of ChatGPT. And social media, I, I use consciously as, like, my leisure time to just, like, relax and just enjoy some content, whereas, like, I don't, I don't like to kind of mix everything into one app.

Andrew Mayne 35:34 For me, there was this moment, and it really happened with deep research, where the quality of things I was getting was often better than what I found online. And I found it-- Like, I could ask a really interesting question. It could be something silly about, like, you know, a bunch of crocodiles massacring people or something. Like, I mean, it was a World War II story. I'm like: "What's the truth about this?" And you get a deep research report, and it comes back: "Well, it was overblown." But that was fun to sort of look through these things and say: "Oh, okay, what are questions I want that I wish there were articles on that?" And, uh, and did you find that, too, that all of a sudden, content got better?

Alaap 36:06 I remember... So in high school, when, when ChatGPT first came out, I was, uh, in, like, a research, uh, like, a research class, uh, where I basically just researched on a topic that I wanted to-

Andrew Mayne 36:15 Mm-hmm

Alaap 36:16 ... and, and wrote a paper about it. And early on, ChatGPT couldn't access the web.

Andrew Mayne 36:20 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 36:20 So I'd paste in a link, and it'd be like: "Oh, I can't read that."

Andrew Mayne 36:23 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 36:23 Um, and so I found that, like, I would, like, paste, like, a big paper in and, and try to give it that way, but it, it wasn't, it wasn't good at, at, like, finding content for me. So I really had to do that myself. But deep research, it could allow me to actually find content specific to what I want.

Andrew Mayne 36:38 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 36:38 Um, and what I usually do is I, I tell it to only, only search for really academic, uh, merit-backed, like, research-

Andrew Mayne 36:47 Hmm

Alaap 36:47 ... and formulate an argument for me. Um, and the content itself is actually very good, and I cite it pretty often.

Andrew Mayne 36:55 So for you, Abi, do you have any particular tricks you use or things you do to try to get it to sort of perform the way you want it to?

Yabsera 37:01 Um, I think, yeah, first and foremost, kind of like narrowing the research parameters, I think, is helpful by feeding it kind of the sources that I want it to-

Andrew Mayne 37:09 Mm-hmm

Yabsera 37:09 ... kind of generate from. Um, and then I think-... for me, I also prompt it to be a critical actor sometimes-

Andrew Mayne 37:16 Mm.

Yabsera 37:16 -because I think, like, as much as I like kind of the feedback I receive, especially s- so say if I'm, like, trying to brainstorm, like, a research paper, right? Um, and I'm, like, formulating, like, my kind of thesis pa- like, statement, and I'm having, like, my sub-points. Um, and I think the feedback I get for the most part is, like, overwhelmingly positive.

Andrew Mayne 37:34 Yeah.

Yabsera 37:34 And that's, like, the first, I mean, reaction to it, and I think that's, that's valid, but sometimes I want an actual critical, like, outlook. So I think prompting it to kind of embody certain personas is really helpful, and, like, the response that it gives to actually make a, like, a holistic, like, paper. Um, and then I think coupling that, like, with, you know, like, having your professors help, um, and kind of also filling certain gaps, I think helps, like, have a holistic kind of overview, at least when I'm writing papers.

Andrew Mayne 38:02 So give us an example of how you prompt when you talk about, like, different personas, what you ask it to do specifically.

Yabsera 38:08 Um, so for example, I think a while back I was doing some research on conspiracy theories.

Andrew Mayne 38:15 Mm-hmm.

Yabsera 38:15 Um, and I think it was, it was interesting research because I feel like there's a lot of information out there. Um, and so I think first step, definitely narrowing those parameters, and then I think I was creating kind of the arguments that, like, followed under there. Um, and I asked it, um... I asked it to actually make up a conspiracy theory using kind of the concepts that I've been learning. Um, and so it made up a conspiracy theory, and-

Andrew Mayne 38:38 What was the theory?

Yabsera 38:40 I think it was some theory about, like, airport mirrors. Um, [laughs]

Andrew Mayne 38:44 Go on. [chuckles]

Yabsera 38:46 And I forgot what the exact parameters were, but it was something about how, like, airport mirrors are, like, monitoring, like, your activity and how, like, you should be careful. Um, but it obviously worded it in a very elegant way-

Andrew Mayne 38:57 Right

Yabsera 38:57 ... because it was using kind of that research to kind of, like, say, "Okay, this is why people believe in it." And so I asked it to take up, like, certain personas across, like, for example, the political scale-

Andrew Mayne 39:07 Uh-huh

Yabsera 39:07 ... um, and ask it, like, you know, "How would this person react to it? How would this person critique it? How would this person believe in it?" Um, and I think it gave me, like, kind of like a overview, like, for my learning, but also, like, for the, like, argument forming, making sure that I'm thinking it from, like, this critical lens or this lens, and not just through, like, what I think, um, you know, about that conspiracy theory.

Andrew Mayne 39:26 That's really good. I, I think that that's one of the, uh, the really low-key things I think people could probably do more of, is not just say, give it one point of view, but actually tell it, like, "Yeah, give me a couple of different points of view." And that was even back with GPT-3. That was what I thought was really cool, is I could simulate a conversation from different points of view, and it was- reading those transcripts was interesting because you could see the model was pretty good at adapting to that. And I love taking research papers and saying, "Give me the counterpoint. Give me this to that," and I think as that kind of tool, that's helpful. Do you have any particular kind of tips you use for any kind of personas or any just some questions you ask?

Alaap 40:00 Yeah, definitely, I, I agree with, like, the- it's very, like, lenient with you, and it'll be like, "Oh, like, you've done a great job on this," and I found that there- you can, you can put a specific instructions for your chat. So if you go to, like, Personalize GPT-

Andrew Mayne 40:14 Mm-hmm

Alaap 40:14 ... um, you can put specific instructions. So I say, like, "No fluff, like, just get to the point, be brutally honest with me, um, whenever I ask you a question or whenever I submit what I have." And to the persona thing as well, like, I think it, it's, it's a great thing to, to get different perspectives versus just tell it, "Oh, what do you think?" Because then it'll be, "Oh, like, more like, I'll take your side and your perspective on it." Um, so I've, I've told it to, you know, act as like a, like a consultant at a top firm and, and tell me how you'd do this, or I told it to act as, like, a super creative, like, professor that researches on this and come up with unique solutions to this. So I think, um, really putting, putting ChatGPT into, like, a persona or perspective and a professional, um, will, like, empower it to actually do better, is what I've noticed.

Andrew Mayne 41:03 You two are both, I think, probably, uh, very well-engaged students. You, you, you have a lot of thought about this. What are some misconceptions you hear? Like, I talk to people bringing ChatGPT in education, people are like, "Ah, cheating," and this sort of stuff. And again, there's a conversation to be had for there, but I think sometimes I hear this sort of assumption that every kid's just automatically going to use this to cheat. Have you encountered that? Do you feel like, you know, was that a... in your experience?

Alaap 41:31 It is a great question, and there's a lot of thought that goes into it. But, um, the more I think about kind of originality and how, how people want, like, your own authentic, original work, um,

Alaap 41:43 because, like, that'll help with your learning, that's, that's definitely true, but then we're gonna get to a point, um, with AI, maybe we already have, but it, it'll keep going down the line where actually, like, AI-produced work is going to be, like, much, much better than, than humans, to the point where why are we just, like, dismissing what, what an AI can produce?

Andrew Mayne 42:04 Yeah.

Alaap 42:05 And I think soon we'll get to the point where we'll, we'll have ChatGPT, like, it'll have a much bigger impact in, let's say, like, writing some report. Um, but then teachers will, and students will also have to adapt to how they can show their growth while also, like, using AI to its fullest because it can complete so many great tasks that humans can't.

Yabsera 42:29 I think it's, it's just hard to answer that question because I feel like we're redefining-

Andrew Mayne 42:33 No, he just said it was a great question.

Alaap 42:35 [laughs]

Andrew Mayne 42:35 He just said it was a great question. No, Yabi, go ahead, go ahead.

Yabsera 42:39 [laughs] Um, I was just saying, I think it's just- it's, it's hard-

Andrew Mayne 42:42 Mm-hmm

Yabsera 42:42 ... because I feel like we're, like, kind of redefining what, like, cheating means.

Andrew Mayne 42:46 Mm-hmm.

Yabsera 42:46 So I feel like I don't even know what cheating means anymore. Um, so I feel like that's why it's, like, kind of hard.

Andrew Mayne 42:52 Yeah, no, it's a fair question, and a fair response. What advice would you give to high school students right now about using these tools?

Yabsera 43:02 I don't know. Something that I think I've-- like, a lot of my friends were talking about, even, like, before I came, came here, I was, you know, staying with my friends from college, and we were just, like, talking about... I was asking their experiences about, like, ChatGPT and AI. Um, and one of my friends was like: I feel like if I had ChatGPT in high school-... I wouldn't be where I am today. Um, and I asked her, like: "Well, what do you mean by that?" [lips smack] And she said, "I feel like I would just be stupider." I feel like-

Alaap 43:29 Hmm

Yabsera 43:29 ... that's just the best way she put it. Um, and so I thought about that, and I fe- I feel like I can somewhat see that point, but I think the way that, like, AI is developing, at least AI usage, I feel like we're noticing kinda like a shift, at least, you know, anecdotally, from what I see, a shift away from kinda using it as like a cheat use case or a, you know, a use case to like, you know, take the easier path-

Alaap 43:54 Mm-hmm

Yabsera 43:54 ... but more so to just, like, improve, like, your productivity and, like, learning. And I think, like, through that lens, I think the advice like I would give is to kind of like, you know, have, like, an intrinsic motivation... I mean, that's hard advice, but I feel like, you know, you just have, like, that motivation to learn, and I think you can really use ChatGPT to kinda help you, but don't use it as a crutch at the same time. I think you just have to hold yourself accountable in kinda not using it to get the answer and more so to help you kinda understand things better. Um, but I think that's, that's hard when you're in high school.

Alaap 44:29 Mm-hmm.

Yabsera 44:29 But I think it allows you to kinda cut through the noise and do things that you actually enjoy versus, you know, things that are kinda like assigned to you-

Alaap 44:38 Mm-hmm

Yabsera 44:39 ... I guess.

Alaap 44:39 Yeah, definitely. I'd say, um, for high school students right now, I'd say be wary. Um, I've noticed that throughout my time, I mean, I started learning about it in high school, and I definitely saw the dangers of it, uh, with complacency and, and getting used to it, uh, doing all the things. And then, when you, when you actually get to the test and when you actually get to challenge what you've learned, you have less of that knowledge. But I've noticed that, uh, these past few months, I've really kind of pushed ChatGPT to its limits and pushed myself to my limits, and I've noticed that I can accomplish a lot more than I used to. Um, I remember in high school, I was, I was working on some project. It was a image classifier, um, project, and it took me a long time, a lot of documents, uh, to, to actually learn and understand how to do this. But now you can, you can utilise AI and actually get this done much faster, and improve on it, and produce it, and continue and, and, uh, and iterate on it to make a much better product. And I, I would encourage high schoolers to, to find a passion and, and really dive into that and, and get the most out of it. But at the same time, be wary and stick to the, the concepts that teachers are teaching you, and, and don't just, uh, automatically dismiss it because AI can do it for you. How would you like teachers to be teaching now?

Yabsera 46:02 I think, and, and this is a bold take, but I think that eventually we're gonna get to a point where, where education and the lectures are fully done by AI.

Alaap 46:12 Hmm.

Yabsera 46:13 I think all, all the content that we're consuming ourselves will be given by AI because I've noticed anecdotally that each student learns differently, and once AI gets to a point where there's, um, like, a multimodal system, where you can visualise things, and, and it'll provide you, like, YouTube videos that it creates itself, um, we're gonna get to a point where students learn better through AI. And I think teachers will then be focused more on, like, the social, social skills, social capital, um, part of it, and mentorship and how to use AI because, um, I think everyone's worried about jobs as well, but a- adaptation is the new job security for, for students and for up-and-coming, um, people that are trying to enter the job market.

Alaap 47:03 That's why I kind of wondered though, is I think that AI has this great place as a companion, as tutor, and whatnot, and a lot of material can kind of replace the textbook, but you me- brought up the word mentorship. I just see... Personally speaking, I think there's so much value to, to me, be able to go to an electrical engineer that actually had an electrical engineering job, you know, a computer science teacher who actually has done the work of it, too. And so do you see that kind of, as sort of the future, is the idea, is that the AI is the really good TA, it's the textbook, it's doing this sort of stuff, but then you want to still pe- keep humans in the centre?

Yabsera 47:33 I guess, like, in terms of, like, teaching and learning, I feel like, obviously, who teaches you impacts what you learn and how you, like, apply it on later on in life. And, like, I feel like you can, you know, learn the same concept in biology, like mitosis. It's the same concept, but, like, who teaches you, like, kind of really changes that, you know?

Alaap 47:51 Mm-hmm.

Yabsera 47:51 So I think that's where the human aspect of, like, learning really comes in, and it, it's what makes it important, and I think that human connection. So I think it's, it's somewhat like of... uh, I think I envision, like, somewhat of, like, a hybrid kind of, of those two things, um, where I think we can get a standard from AI because it's helpful, because it's easy, because it's, like, you know, accessible. And then kind of that mentorship element comes in with the touch and, like, how you apply it, and especially how you think about it in terms of ethics. I think maybe we'll- we'll start shifting away from just, like, learning how to do, do, do, and thinking about, like, how does this impact people? You know, how can we help others through these technologies?

Alaap 48:26 Mm-hmm.

Yabsera 48:27 Um, and I think that shift in understanding is where the human touch and mentorship will also come in. So I think, you know, having that hybrid model is, you know, something that I envision for the future, and that's something that could be really successful.

Alaap 48:39 Where do you see the future headed with AI?

Yabsera 48:42 Um, definitely just, like, how any technology works, just, like, simplifying a lot of tasks, um, obviously. And I think, uh, a lot of people maybe are, are worried about or are thinking about consciousness-

Alaap 48:54 Mm-hmm

Yabsera 48:54 ... um, in AI, and I, I don't think that AI will, will generate consciousness for a long time. Um, but I think that, like, in the future, like, right, like deploying, like, you know, s- like, certain companies have already developed, like, deployable software engineers-

Alaap 49:11 Mm

Yabsera 49:11 ... as, as an AI agent. Um, but, like, deploying, like, like, a full, just like a one agent that'll orchestrate, like, a software engineer, a marketer, a designer-

Alaap 49:22 Mm

Yabsera 49:22 ... um, so many things, I think, I think that's where

Yabsera 49:24 the future is going. Um, where humans stand in that, uh, definitely, like-

Alaap 49:29 ... they'll, they'll need to, like, stay in the loop. I think just letting, letting AI go is, is dangerous, and it isn't, uh, feasible for, for the upcoming future.

Andrew Mayne 49:39 What do you think your job is gonna look like 10 years from now?

Yabsera 49:42 I think it'll, it'll be, it'll be a mixed bag, I think.

Andrew Mayne 49:44 Mm.

Yabsera 49:44 Because I think because my job is pretty, like, kind of external-facing, people-facing, I think right now, kind of the tension or the strife I see with, like, AI usage in like creative fields is like, "Oh, like, I don't want to read something made by like ChatGPT," or like, you know? And there's, like, a lot of critique on, like, the usage of em dashes, like the comma- [chuckles]

Andrew Mayne 50:06 I, I, one, I only want to read things by, by deep research, too. I use em dashes all the time now-

Yabsera 50:11 [chuckles]

Andrew Mayne 50:11 ... just to annoy people.

Yabsera 50:13 Yeah. And so, like, yeah, there's like a lot of like kind of critique about people, like, not wanting to read content that's, like, AI-generated.

Andrew Mayne 50:19 Mm-hmm.

Yabsera 50:20 And, like, I see that, like, on social media. I see that in, like, more niche communities, like Substack. I feel like I've read like at least 15 Substack articles, like, kind of bashing the uses of, like, em dashes, like.

Andrew Mayne 50:30 Yeah, it's- uh, there's... Reactions are interesting, but like, to me, it puts- I put more value now on autobiographical stuff. If, if somebody's writing a generic thing that anything could rate- you know, could anything could create, then I don't really care as much. But if somebody's like, "Here's my experience doing this," that has way more value to me personally.

Yabsera 50:48 It's just really about like, I think in the future, at least in, in, like, marketing, it's, like, probably just navigating that tension and seeing-

Andrew Mayne 50:53 Mm

Yabsera 50:54 ... like, what audiences, like, kind of resonate to. So maybe, who knows, in like five years, I feel like AI-generated content might be, like, the norm and, like, acceptable-

Andrew Mayne 51:01 Mm

Yabsera 51:01 ... and, like, us as, like, marketers are kind of, like, pushing in that creative input and for that, like, you know, AI-generated output. But I feel like that's, that's still long years ahead, but.

Andrew Mayne 51:12 What is your biggest fear? I'll give you mine, okay? I think these are incredible technologies. I think there's- I think everybody has the right to kind of approach this however they want, and if somebody says, "I'm taking time- my time," that's fine. My concern is, I think there's a lot of value. I think it's an incredible learning tool, and, and I find that people can get up to speed very quickly in six months. I think six months' time spending this stuff, you can then go into a company, and you can do a lot of value, or you can create a company and do this stuff. And my concern is that people are kind of hesitating too much and not asking a question, and maybe we're not doing enough to teach or communicate everything we're doing there. And I fear- my fear is people missing out.

Alaap 51:53 I kind of have like a, like an opposite, opposite view.

Andrew Mayne 51:56 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 51:56 I think that maybe, maybe specifically because I'm, I'm inserted in this education, um, that some people will, will try to, like, find a way around, like, everything that's traditionally education-

Andrew Mayne 52:07 Mm

Alaap 52:07 ... um, with AI, and there are a lot of loopholes within education. Um, and my fear is that, that you'll, you'll get to the, to the job market, and, and essentially, you- the, the people interviewing you are not gonna ask, like, "Oh, like, if you get this question, how are you gonna put it into AI and solve it?"

Andrew Mayne 52:25 Mm.

Alaap 52:25 Because AI can solve this question, whatever traditional coding question that you have, but they're really looking for the concepts and for how you, how you adapt and, and solve problems because they need that human aspect as well. Like, humanity is not going away, and my fear is that, um, that, like, the use of this tool is gonna go too far, where they realize that, like, traditional education is still important-

Andrew Mayne 52:47 Mm-hmm

Alaap 52:48 ... and understanding those concepts is still important. Um, and, and it'll be hard to, like, backtrack from there.

Yabsera 52:54 For me, like, my fear component comes from a place more of like having kind of like knowledge and truth centralised-

Andrew Mayne 53:01 Mm

Yabsera 53:01 ... in one place. I think that's what's more fearful for me because I think right now we have not- like, knowledge fragmented in so many different places.

Andrew Mayne 53:10 Mm.

Yabsera 53:10 And I think the beauty of learning is like taking each of those pieces and putting it together in one kind of, like, streamlined understanding for yourself. But I think with, you know, kind of the usage of, like, ChatGPT and, like, certain, like, you know, like chatbots on its own and having that kind of as, like, the search engine or, like, the centralization of truth, I feel like could be, like, a bad feedback loop sometimes-

Andrew Mayne 53:32 Mm-hmm

Yabsera 53:32 ... where I think you're referring to the same sources and not really doing kind of that work to, like, reach out different, like, knowledge sources. So I think that's where my fear comes from, and I think it becomes amplified when, like, you know, with the emergence of things where there are, like, specific, like, chatbots, like, that are themed. So, like, maybe like, you know, doing like a chatbot only for, you know, far, far-right activists or like far-left activists and, like, kind of when you, you know, go down those, like, feedback loops and you're unable to kind of extract yourself and have, like, a broader perspective-

Andrew Mayne 54:02 Mm-hmm

Yabsera 54:02 ... because of kind of the accessibility of, like, you know, generative AI, I think is, like, where my fear comes from, but-

Andrew Mayne 54:07 So kind of like where our social media, your fear is kind of echo chambers-

Yabsera 54:09 Right

Andrew Mayne 54:09 ... that people are gonna say, "I'm only gonna use these sources or that sources." I w- I would say that I'm optimistic and overall optimistic because I- it's a lot easier, like you pointed out before, is you said, "Hey, I want you to use these sources, and I want you to take different opinions, and I want that." And is that something we need to be thinking about incorporating more into education and how we teach people critical thinking? The idea that if you're not challenging yourself, you're not learning.

Alaap 54:36 For sure. I, I, I one hundred percent agree with that, and I think that that's what the Study Mode does great. Like, it do- it does give you that challenging aspect-

Andrew Mayne 54:43 Mm.

Alaap 54:43 ... and when your brain starts, like, you know, really, like, diving deep and you start thinking, um, critically thinking about, oh, maybe different counter examples, different perspectives, then you can get a full, uh, overall just assessment of what- whatever you want to be thinking about.

Andrew Mayne 54:57 Every time I ask this question, I usually get a good answer, sometimes immediately, sometimes it takes longer for people to think about that. I wanna ask about your favourite prompts, things that you've used that give you fun results or cool ways to use it.

Alaap 55:11 ... Um, so I've kind of noticed two things. I think the main thing is I can really, um, I can kind of personalize and give ChatGPT the specifics about me-

Andrew Mayne 55:21 Mm-hmm

Alaap 55:21 ... and, and then have it give me an answer based on that. So I, I tell it my, my diet preferences, um, what I, what I want out of the food that I'm eating.

Andrew Mayne 55:29 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 55:29 And when I go to the grocery store, I'll take a picture of the receipt and have it grade it. You know, "How well did I do-

Andrew Mayne 55:35 Mm

Alaap 55:36 ... um, based on this grocery trip?" Because I wanna make sure that I, I highlight and I get all of my vitamins, and let's say that's my specific goal. And it'll grade me based on that objectively, and it'll also track progress over time. But I think the, the main thing with, with prompts is that you can talk about you yourself, and it'll also store that in memory.

Andrew Mayne 55:55 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 55:55 So I, uh, I've been playing basketball for a long time, almost all my life, and I have, like, some knee issues that I've run into, and sometimes the traditional, like, best way to, like, work out your legs isn't the best when you have knee pain.

Andrew Mayne 56:09 Mm-hmm.

Alaap 56:09 And everyone has different types of pain and, and different ways that that gets aggravated. So when I ask ChatGPT, you know, "I have this pain, but when I do this exercise, it feels fine, but when I do this exercise, it really hurts. So can you make me-- can you f- maybe diagnose the problem?" Maybe it's not that good at that, "but can you make me just a exercise regimen that'll be wrapped around my specific needs?"

Yabsera 56:32 Oh, that's really cool.

Alaap 56:33 Yeah.

Andrew Mayne 56:34 Yeah.

Yabsera 56:34 Giving me some ideas. Um, I think for me, so I also can think of, like, two use cases. Um, but I think personally for me, the best thing that, you know, ChatGPT and, like, AI gives me is, like, time, and, like, I think having more time makes me happy. So, like, I feel like ChatGPT does make me happy as a person.

Andrew Mayne 56:51 Mm-hmm.

Yabsera 56:52 But I think the best kind of, like, manifestation of that is, like, kind of, like, small day-to-day tasks. And, um, I think one of the times I used it was... [lips smack] So I think I had, like, a reading list of, like, 15 books that I wanted to go get. Um, and so the nearest bookstore from my campus is, uh, The Last Bookstore-

Andrew Mayne 57:09 Mm

Yabsera 57:09 ... which is in DTLA. Um, and for those of you who aren't from LA or know the area, it's really tough on parking. Um, it's kind of like a very in-and-out situation, so I think there's, like, a time pressure for me. Um, and I also didn't wanna pay, like, 40 bucks after a certain point. I wanted to put together, you know, the optimal strategy to get in and out of the bookstore in, like, 15 minutes. Um, and so that started off with kind of feeding it, like, the 15 books that I had in mind, um, and organize it based off of, like, the library's organizational system, um, and then the last name of the authors and the genre. So, like, kind of, like, those three inputs. Um, and so it gave me the most optimal strat to kind of, like, grab those books and get out as fast as possible. So I thought that was a really cool use case, and I've been using, you know, a lot of kind of use cases like that to optimize my time. Um, and then just another kind of, like, use case that actually my friend taught me, um, is to kind of use voice mode, um, to really also help with that time convenience. Um, and so I saw him use it, uh, while he was driving, [lips smack] and he put it on voice mode, and every time he would see, like, a tech billboard in San Francisco, he would ask it, "Oh, what is this company?" Like, "What does this billboard mean?" So I think it was nice how he's able to kind of learn on the go and just, like, do some things that he's, like, interested in, uh, with kind of, like, mundane tasks, like driving. Um, and then so I started kind of adopting that. Um, I'm taking, like, a summer course right now, um, and so I don't have a lot of time with, you know, the work commute while driving. Um, and then there's actual work for most of my day. So to really optimize my time, I've been just ask- using voice mode to kind of do, like, study, like, recall and back and forth on certain concepts, so that when I get home, I feel like my brain is already ready and active to, like, do the assignments. So I think, like, that aspect has been really cool, and being able to use that voice feature is also really cool because s- scarily, like, human-like, so I feel like I'm actually talking to someone.

Andrew Mayne 58:57 Guys, this has been great. I'd like to thank you both for being here and look forward to talking again further down and seeing where your paths have taken you.

Yabsera 59:05 Yeah. No, thank you so much for having us. I feel like it's a great platform to kind of, like, talk about, like, AI and, like, especially in the education space, because it's something so salient. So I'm glad, like, you know, we had this platform.

Andrew Mayne 59:17 Yeah.

Yabsera 59:17 Thank you for having us.

Alaap 59:18 Yeah.

Andrew Mayne 59:18 People can use words like "salient." [chuckles]

Alaap 59:20 Exactly. I, I echo what she said. No, this is, this has been great, a great conversation. I'm glad we got to talk about some hard-hitting topics and also some optimistic topics.

Andrew Mayne 59:30 Yeah, I'm very optimistic. I mean, it's gonna be... The more we can help our friends adapt and find their own place with it, the better.