Can AI Replace Therapists? | Pivot

1. 0:00 – 4:33

   Intro

   1. MRMel Robbins0:00

      Well, I'm not saying-

   2. KSKara Swisher0:00

      To be-

   3. MRMel Robbins0:00

      ... don't be a monk-

   4. KSKara Swisher0:01

      ... to be in the mountains.

   5. MRMel Robbins0:01

      ... and live in the mountains.

   6. KSKara Swisher0:02

      Yeah.

   7. MRMel Robbins0:02

      What I'm saying is, develop some fucking boundaries.

   8. KSKara Swisher0:05

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   9. MRMel Robbins0:05

      The next time you're standing in line-

   10. KSKara Swisher0:07

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MRMel Robbins0:08

       ... don't reach for your phone.

   12. KSKara Swisher0:08

       Mm-hmm. Difficult.

   13. MRMel Robbins0:10

       Yeah. Don't reach for your phone.

   14. KSKara Swisher0:12

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MRMel Robbins0:13

       Feel the tension. Don't reach for your phone. (instrumental music)

   16. KSKara Swisher0:21

       Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Welcome back to (radio effect) Scott Free August. (air horn) As Scott continues his August adventures, I'm joined by another incredible co-host, Mel Robbins. Mel is an award-winning podcast host and New York Times best-selling author, and an expert in mindset, behavioral change, and life improvement. Welcome, Mel.

   17. MRMel Robbins0:49

       Well, thank you for having me.

   18. KSKara Swisher0:50

       I am so thrilled to have you. We couldn't be more opposite, which is why I want you here so much.

   19. MRMel Robbins0:55

       Wait a minute, what do you mean we couldn't be more opposite?

   20. KSKara Swisher0:56

       Well, we were just talking about, like, uh, vibrating all the time.

   21. MRMel Robbins0:59

       (laughs)

   22. KSKara Swisher0:59

       I'm a constant vibrator.

   23. MRMel Robbins1:01

       Okay. Well, hold on.

   24. KSKara Swisher1:02

       Like (laughs) speaking of-

   25. MRMel Robbins1:02

       Somebody's gonna take that on.

   26. KSKara Swisher1:04

       Ah, the penis joke.

   27. MRMel Robbins1:04

       Yes, here we go.

   28. KSKara Swisher1:04

       I... Of course, that's my hope. That's my great hope social media-wise. Um, but talk a little bit about w- what you're doing.

   29. MRMel Robbins1:10

       So, um, before I got into doing what I w- am doing, I had a really cool opportunity to be one of the legal analysts and commentators for CNN.

   30. KSKara Swisher1:19

       Right.
2. 4:33 – 28:36

   “The Let Them Theory”

   1. KSKara Swisher4:33

      Um, but before w... let's talk about your latest book, The Let Them Theory.

   2. MRMel Robbins4:36

      Uh-huh.

   3. KSKara Swisher4:36

      Because you are a podcaster. This book is an enormous success. Let Them is everywhere.

   4. MRMel Robbins4:41

      Yes.

   5. KSKara Swisher4:41

      You know, and the reason... I was joking with you in a, in a, um, uh, i- in a text I said, "I'm a don't let them kinda gal." Like, which is kind of interesting. Um, but this book is, is running up the charts. Oprah called it a game changer and a life changer. Uh, lovely hugs, by the way, at whatever greenhouse she's doing her podcast in. Um, uh, people are getting Let Them tattoos.

   6. MRMel Robbins5:02

      Mm-hmm.

   7. KSKara Swisher5:02

      I do not. I have, um, I have chaos, chaos and entropy and syntropy on my tattoos, which is very different that everything is on its way to destruction or creation. Um, talk about for everyone who hasn't heard it-

   8. MRMel Robbins5:14

      Mm-hmm.

   9. KSKara Swisher5:14

      ... tell them what The Let Them Theory is all about-

   10. MRMel Robbins5:16

       Sure.

   11. KSKara Swisher5:17

       ... and, and, and how you came up with them.

   12. MRMel Robbins5:19

       Sure. So The Let Them Theory is a very simple concept, two simple words-

   13. KSKara Swisher5:25

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MRMel Robbins5:25

       ... that's how you begin Let Them-

   15. KSKara Swisher5:26

       Mm-hmm.

   16. MRMel Robbins5:27

       ... will help you live your life completely differently.

   17. KSKara Swisher5:29

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MRMel Robbins5:30

       It is a philosophy that's all about control and power.

   19. KSKara Swisher5:33

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MRMel Robbins5:33

       What is in your control?

   21. KSKara Swisher5:34

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MRMel Robbins5:35

       What is not in your control?

   23. KSKara Swisher5:36

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MRMel Robbins5:37

       And the fact is that most of us spend way too much of our time and energy burning through things that are beyond your control.

   25. KSKara Swisher5:44

       Right.

   26. MRMel Robbins5:44

       And the number one thing that is outside of your control at all times is other people.

   27. KSKara Swisher5:48

       Mm-hmm.

   28. MRMel Robbins5:48

       What they think, what they do, what they say-

   29. KSKara Swisher5:50

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MRMel Robbins5:50

       ... how they feel, what they believe. And I never realized the extent to which I was living my life navigating my day-to-day decisions based on other people's moods, their expectations-
3. 28:36 – 40:32

   AI and Mental Health

   1. KSKara Swisher28:36

      reserved. Mel, we're back. Illinois just became the first state to regulate the use of AI in mental healthcare. The new law bans AI from acting as a standalone therapist and sets guardrails of how mental health professionals can use AI to support care. Meanwhile, OpenAI is updating ChatGPT to better detect emotional distress. The company says its GPT, uh, uh, 4o model fell short in recognizing signs of delusion and emotional dependency in some cases, you think? The new behavior, uh, to handle what OpenAI calls high-stakes personal decisions is rolling out soon. Um, talk a little bit about this, 'cause a lot of people-

   2. MRMel Robbins29:12

      A-

   3. KSKara Swisher29:12

      ... are relying on, a ton of people are now.

   4. MRMel Robbins29:14

      A lot of people?

   5. KSKara Swisher29:15

      Uh, uh, enough people.

   6. MRMel Robbins29:16

      Now, hold on a second. There's actually a recent-

   7. KSKara Swisher29:19

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MRMel Robbins29:19

      ... report from Harvard-

   9. KSKara Swisher29:20

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MRMel Robbins29:20

       ... Business-

   11. KSKara Swisher29:20

       Yeah.

   12. MRMel Robbins29:21

       ... that says that since 2024 to 2025-

   13. KSKara Swisher29:23

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MRMel Robbins29:24

       ... this is, uh, literally it just came out a couple months ago, that the single top use case for generative AI in 2025 is therapy and companionship.

   15. KSKara Swisher29:32

       Therapy, right.

   16. MRMel Robbins29:33

       And I just want everybody to sit with that right now.

   17. KSKara Swisher29:36

       Millions of people.

   18. MRMel Robbins29:37

       Uh, well, there's 700 million people that are using generative AI-

   19. KSKara Swisher29:41

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MRMel Robbins29:41

       ... every week.

   21. KSKara Swisher29:41

       Yep.

   22. MRMel Robbins29:42

       The top use case-

   23. KSKara Swisher29:43

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MRMel Robbins29:43

       ... Harvard Business School report.

   25. KSKara Swisher29:45

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MRMel Robbins29:45

       And this is a major change from 2024, is for-

   27. KSKara Swisher29:49

       Which was usually just, "I wanna get airline tickets."

   28. MRMel Robbins29:52

       Generating ideas. Generating ideas.

   29. KSKara Swisher29:53

       Right, strategy.

   30. MRMel Robbins29:54

       So 2024 was generating ideas, specific search. It was therapy and companionship. But now it's therapy and companionship number one.
4. 40:32 – 52:53

   Avoiding News Fatigue

   1. KSKara Swisher40:32

   2. MRMel Robbins40:32

      (laughs) Well, let's talk about that.

   3. KSKara Swisher40:33

      Yes, so we're gonna, uh, I wanna talk about th- the influx, uh, the information influx, uh, about it, um, uh, without overwhelming you. Um, h- how, first of all, how do you, when you, when you use generative AI-

   4. MRMel Robbins40:45

      Mm-hmm.

   5. KSKara Swisher40:46

      ... or deal with the influx of news-

   6. MRMel Robbins40:48

      Mm-hmm.

   7. KSKara Swisher40:48

      ... that is, that overwhelms you, some of which is true-

   8. MRMel Robbins40:50

      I don't, I don't deal with an influx of news.

   9. KSKara Swisher40:52

      You don't. You don't. What do you do?

   10. MRMel Robbins40:52

       Well, well, I'll tell you why, because I-

   11. KSKara Swisher40:54

       Okay.

   12. MRMel Robbins40:54

       ... understanding-

   13. KSKara Swisher40:55

       But if you wanna stay informed-

   14. MRMel Robbins40:56

       Of course.

   15. KSKara Swisher40:56

       ... without feeling overwhelmed.

   16. MRMel Robbins40:57

       Yeah, of course. So-

   17. KSKara Swisher40:58

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MRMel Robbins40:58

       ... you know, this is a very simple thing.

   19. KSKara Swisher41:00

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MRMel Robbins41:00

       Like, think about input versus output.

   21. KSKara Swisher41:02

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MRMel Robbins41:03

       And what are you allowing into your mind?

   23. KSKara Swisher41:06

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MRMel Robbins41:07

       That, that, it's, it's that simple. Do you trust the voices-

   25. KSKara Swisher41:11

       Like food, you're talking about? Like-

   26. MRMel Robbins41:11

       It's just, uh, well, I, I'm talking about information.

   27. KSKara Swisher41:13

       Right, but it's like food, like-

   28. MRMel Robbins41:14

       Just like food.

   29. KSKara Swisher41:15

       ... twinkie, twinkie, twinkie.

   30. MRMel Robbins41:16

       Yes. So are you alla- if, garbage in, garbage out.
5. 52:53 – 58:01

   “Mankeeping”

   1. KSKara Swisher52:53

      take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about, uh, man keeping. Mel, we're back. It's time to talk about man keeping-

   2. MRMel Robbins52:59

      Okay.

   3. KSKara Swisher52:59

      ... a recent piece in New York Times explores the term coined by postdoctoral fellow at Stanford, An- Angelica Puzio-Ferrara. It refers to a growing emotional burden women feel in relationships 'cause the straight men tend only to open up to their wives or girlfriends. It's driven by a topic we tend to talk a lot about on this show. A 2021 survey from the Survey Center of Americle- of American Life found that 15% of men said they didn't have any close friends. Uh, how would you suggest a woman in a relationship experiencing man keeping, uh... I, I have Scott Galloway who I have to keep. Um... (laughs)

   4. MRMel Robbins53:30

      No, let him.

   5. KSKara Swisher53:31

      Let him. (laughs) I, oh... That is the code?

   6. MRMel Robbins53:33

      We'll, we'll go to this next.

   7. KSKara Swisher53:34

      You know why the show's popular? I let him. That is exactly why. So we'll go to the next-

   8. MRMel Robbins53:38

      Oh, I don't know. I've seen the comments.

   9. KSKara Swisher53:40

      Uh, oh, I don't let him.

   10. MRMel Robbins53:40

       Some of your, uh, female listeners are getting tired of it.

   11. KSKara Swisher53:43

       Of him. I know that, but then they come up to me-

   12. MRMel Robbins53:45

       And they, I know, but people listen to, like, people that irritate them, so.

   13. KSKara Swisher53:47

       Yes, that's exactly right, but they do come up to me. They like the struggle. So would... Uh, I don't read comments ever, speaking of which. I never do. I don't know why.

   14. MRMel Robbins53:54

       That's smart.

   15. KSKara Swisher53:54

       It's just one of my things.

   16. MRMel Robbins53:55

       I only do it when I'm preparing to come on a show.

   17. KSKara Swisher53:57

       Oh, do you? Okay.

   18. MRMel Robbins53:58

       Yes.

   19. KSKara Swisher53:58

       So, um, thank you for telling me about it, though. But I'm still gonna not listen to them.

   20. MRMel Robbins54:01

       Let them.

   21. KSKara Swisher54:01

       Let them. Let them, let them.

   22. MRMel Robbins54:01

       Let them complain in the comments.

   23. KSKara Swisher54:02

       Let them.

   24. MRMel Robbins54:03

       'Cause you know what? You can't control what other people think.

   25. KSKara Swisher54:05

       That's right. I, good for you.

   26. MRMel Robbins54:06

       Let them.

   27. KSKara Swisher54:06

       Yeah. Uh-huh. I have a lot of people do com- like, "How can you put up with them?" I'm like, "Eh, it's none of your business. It's none of your beeswax." Um, so talk about this man keep- how do women in a relationship experience man keeping and talk about the boundaries a- around that, because I think dating has definitely, for some reason, become harder. Um, and what advice do you have for men?

   28. MRMel Robbins54:24

       Well, I thought that this was a very interesting article-

   29. KSKara Swisher54:26

       Yeah.

   30. MRMel Robbins54:26

       ... because it was very polarizing.
6. 58:01 – 1:10:45

   The Pillars of Friendship

   1. MRMel Robbins58:01

      most of us don't understand friendship. Mm-hmm. And friendship, once I explain this to you, you'll n- you'll, you'll be like, "Oh my God." Like- It's so simple now. Yeah, it's so simple. (laughs) Like, "What the fuck? Why we all know this stuff?" (laughs) So, so for your whole life- Yeah. ... the conditions for friendship from zero to 20 were there, because you were with people your age all the time. Right. And you were doing the same things all the time, and you had the same milestones. Mm-hmm. Celebrated birthdays, graduations, same vacation schedules. Ninth grade. All of it. Right. When you hit 20, all of a sudden, the great scattering- On your own. ... as I call it- Yeah. ... happens. Yeah. And everybody scatters in different directions. And then the only thing that's holding your old friends together is a group text chain that gets, kind of dwindles to less and less and less- Mm-hmm. ... as people start to jump into their lives. Mm-hmm. And then we start to say, "I have no friends." Mm-hmm. Which is not true. Mm-hmm. And so let me tell you the three pillars based on research that need to be present to create friendship. Mm-hmm. And I want people to understand this, because when you see the pillars- Mm-hmm. ... you can support people in your life, whether it's young boys or young men or your partner- Mm-hmm. ... in understanding what it's gonna take to create these relationships that matter. So number one, you have to have proximity. Proximity is the single most important condition for friendship. Mm-hmm. There was research at the University of Kansas that was done about friendship. And I'm gonna probably get the, the facts, or the actual digits wrong, but I'm gonna be in the right range. In order to have a casual friend, you need to spend almost 80 hours with somebody. Mm-hmm. In order to have a super close friend, over 200 hours. Right. And the proximity creates the conditions, so- School- ... you know, like- ... school, whatever. Yes. Like- Other school parents, like- And other school parents, seeing them on the sidelines. Mm-hmm. In class, sitting next to people. At work, you used to have- Mm-hmm. ... a lot of friends at work, right? Because you spent so- Mm-hmm. I did. ... much time with them. So that brings me to the second condition that needs to be present for good friendship to happen, and that is timing. Mm-hmm. So timing means, are we in the same time of our lives? Are we both raising kids? Mm-hmm. Are we around the same age? Are we interested in the same things? Mm-hmm. This explains why you can spend 50 to 60 hours a week with people at work and really love 'em, and they're awesome- Mm-hmm. ... but you're not best friends. Right. Because you may be in your 20s, and so you'll go out and get wasted, and then you're puking in a garbage can on Sunday night. Mm-hmm. And then Monday morning, it's like, "Hey, what'd you do?" "Oh, I went to a soccer game with my kids." Mm-hmm. You're in different timing of life. Of course. So there's only so much depth. Third condition for friendship, energy. Energy is just about whether or not there's a fit or not, and I've come to believe it has a lot more to do about what your priorities are. Mm-hmm. This is why you can be super close friends with people, but if you decide to stop drinking, all of a sudden you're not that close- Right. ... because the energy shifts. Right, right. Now here's the most important thing. The reason why it's important to understand that it's about proximity, it's about timing, and it's about energy, is that when friendships naturally come and go- Mm-hmm. ... it doesn't mean anything's wrong. Right. It's actually good. I agree. This, uh, right. And this, you gotta let them- Yeah. Let them come and go. And the mistake that people make is they start to say, "I have no friends." Mm-hmm. That's not true. Mm-hmm. People come and go in your life, and it's a beautiful thing. And at any moment- Mm-hmm. ... you can decide that friendship is important to you- And make it important. Yes. And, you know, every time in your life that you move, or you go through a divorce, or you have any major job change, you are going to experience a little scattering of friendship. Mm-hmm. Because proximity will change, and so will the timing, and so will energy. Like for example, my husband and I moved to Southern Vermont, um, when we were in our 50s. Mm-hmm. And it was shocking to move to a new place and literally go, "Oh my God, I have no friends here." Right. "I gotta start all over." Mm-hmm. And you feel like that first week in college- Right. ... where it feels like everybody has got their group- Right. ... and you're the only idiot sitting alone, you know- Right. ... in the cafeteria- Yeah. ... and you don't wanna be that cringey person that goes up to other people. Yeah. What did you do? What did I do? Well, first I cried and stayed alone in my house for six months. Oh, wow. And literally was like, "Why can't we, why doesn't anyone say..." Like la- la... I've, like l... You know, this is, this is why I'm so good at giving advice- (laughs) ... because I fuck up my life all the time. Uh-huh. And I find myself in these situations where I'm like, "Okay, well nobody's gonna magically parachute out of the sky and fix my life." Mm-hmm. "No one's coming." Mm-hmm. "I'm either gonna suffer in misery or I'm gonna fucking fix this." Mm-hmm. And again, let's go back to some of the things we talked about. Mm-hmm.... the brain, Dr. K, defaults to what's easy.

   2. KSKara Swisher1:02:26

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MRMel Robbins1:02:26

      Being miserable and crying is easy.

   4. KSKara Swisher1:02:28

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MRMel Robbins1:02:28

      And at some point, you'll get to a point where you're like, "It's actually harder to stay in here and sit with myself than to push my ass out the door and to go to that local coffee shop."

   6. KSKara Swisher1:02:38

      Yeah. You do have to make- you have to make a thing. When I moved to California from DC, I had a wonderful social life in DC-

   7. MRMel Robbins1:02:42

      Mm-hmm.

   8. KSKara Swisher1:02:42

      ... friends, everything else, and I moved to California to cover the nascent internet industry. I didn't know anyone, and I w- and I just broke up with someone, too. So it was just like, "Ugh." And I spent a couple of months like crying in a-

   9. MRMel Robbins1:02:52

      (laughs)

   10. KSKara Swisher1:02:52

       ... in a- in a rainy San Francisco-

   11. MRMel Robbins1:02:54

       (laughs)

   12. KSKara Swisher1:02:55

       ... house. And I remember when spring came, I went, "You know, I'm gonna say yes to everything."

   13. MRMel Robbins1:02:58

       Yeah.

   14. KSKara Swisher1:02:58

       "Everything, I'm- even the smallest little thing."

   15. MRMel Robbins1:03:01

       Yeah.

   16. KSKara Swisher1:03:01

       And it was- changed everything.

   17. MRMel Robbins1:03:03

       Yeah, it does. Like, I started, honest to God, by just going to the coffee shop.

   18. KSKara Swisher1:03:06

       Mm-hmm.

   19. MRMel Robbins1:03:07

       And then instead of sitting there alone-

   20. KSKara Swisher1:03:09

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MRMel Robbins1:03:09

       ... I forced myself to start turning and talking to people on a line-

   22. KSKara Swisher1:03:13

       Mm-hmm.

   23. MRMel Robbins1:03:13

       ... instead of looking at my phone.

   24. KSKara Swisher1:03:14

       Mm-hmm.

   25. MRMel Robbins1:03:14

       "Hi," you know, go- come here. "Oh, I like your socks." Like, just complimenting somebody is a great way-

   26. KSKara Swisher1:03:19

       Yeah. Love-bombing.

   27. MRMel Robbins1:03:19

       Yeah, to just strike up a conv- turn and talk to the people next to you.

   28. KSKara Swisher1:03:23

       Mm-hmm.

   29. MRMel Robbins1:03:23

       Just it's a way to start to come out of your shell and-

   30. KSKara Swisher1:03:26

       Actually, longevity depends on talking to strangers. It's really interesting.

Episode duration: 1:21:51