Can AI Replace Therapists? | Pivot

Mel Robbins 0:00 Well, I'm not saying-

Kara Swisher 0:00 To be-

Mel Robbins 0:00 ... don't be a monk-

Kara Swisher 0:01 ... to be in the mountains.

Mel Robbins 0:01 ... and live in the mountains.

Kara Swisher 0:02 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 0:02 What I'm saying is, develop some fucking boundaries.

Kara Swisher 0:05 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 0:05 The next time you're standing in line-

Kara Swisher 0:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 0:08 ... don't reach for your phone.

Kara Swisher 0:08 Mm-hmm. Difficult.

Mel Robbins 0:10 Yeah. Don't reach for your phone.

Kara Swisher 0:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 0:13 Feel the tension. Don't reach for your phone. (instrumental music)

Kara Swisher 0:21 Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Welcome back to (radio effect) Scott Free August. (air horn) As Scott continues his August adventures, I'm joined by another incredible co-host, Mel Robbins. Mel is an award-winning podcast host and New York Times best-selling author, and an expert in mindset, behavioral change, and life improvement. Welcome, Mel.

Mel Robbins 0:49 Well, thank you for having me.

Kara Swisher 0:50 I am so thrilled to have you. We couldn't be more opposite, which is why I want you here so much.

Mel Robbins 0:55 Wait a minute, what do you mean we couldn't be more opposite?

Kara Swisher 0:56 Well, we were just talking about, like, uh, vibrating all the time.

Mel Robbins 0:59 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 0:59 I'm a constant vibrator.

Mel Robbins 1:01 Okay. Well, hold on.

Kara Swisher 1:02 Like (laughs) speaking of-

Mel Robbins 1:02 Somebody's gonna take that on.

Kara Swisher 1:04 Ah, the penis joke.

Mel Robbins 1:04 Yes, here we go.

Kara Swisher 1:04 I... Of course, that's my hope. That's my great hope social media-wise. Um, but talk a little bit about w- what you're doing.

Mel Robbins 1:10 So, um, before I got into doing what I w- am doing, I had a really cool opportunity to be one of the legal analysts and commentators for CNN.

Kara Swisher 1:19 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:20 And I did that for almost three and a half years.

Kara Swisher 1:22 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:23 And it was an incredible-

Kara Swisher 1:24 Lawyer, meaning.

Mel Robbins 1:25 Yeah. Yeah, well, I was a public defender here in Manhattan-

Kara Swisher 1:27 That's correct, yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:27 ... early days of my career.

Kara Swisher 1:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:29 And, um, had about 19 different job changes.

Kara Swisher 1:32 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:32 You know, I'm kinda one of these people that I learn everything I talk about the hard way.

Kara Swisher 1:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:36 And, um, I ended up at CNN. It was an incredible, incredible job, very intellectually stimulating.

Kara Swisher 1:42 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:42 It was a real honor to have the opportunity to try to take these massive, in particular, social justice cases-

Kara Swisher 1:51 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:51 ... and be able to talk about them in a three to six-minute segment-

Kara Swisher 1:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:56 ... and try to distill down some of the biggest themes and the important takeaways.

Kara Swisher 2:00 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 2:00 And so, that's what I did years and years ago. I left, uh, CNN in about 2014, I think it was.

Kara Swisher 2:06 Mm-hmm. And, and the rest is history because you've become-

Mel Robbins 2:09 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 2:09 ... one of the most successful podcasters around.

Mel Robbins 2:12 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:12 You are number one, too-

Mel Robbins 2:13 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:14 ... often-

Mel Robbins 2:14 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:14 ... at the very top. What do you attribute that to? 'Cause this is a shift. L- public defender-

Mel Robbins 2:19 Uh-huh.

Kara Swisher 2:19 ... CNN legal analyst to this.

Mel Robbins 2:21 Well, when I got involved in podcasting-

Kara Swisher 2:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 2:23 ... I'd been wanting to, um, do something that was a longer form conversation.

Kara Swisher 2:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 2:30 I had been after, you know, after CNN, what ended up happening is I had created this motivational hack called the Five Second Rule.

Kara Swisher 2:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 2:37 Not the one where you drop food on the floor.

Kara Swisher 2:40 Right, right.

Mel Robbins 2:40 Pick it up in five seconds.

Kara Swisher 2:41 Which I do all, all the time.

Mel Robbins 2:42 Yeah, blow the dog hair off-

Kara Swisher 2:43 Right.

Mel Robbins 2:43 ... we're good to go.

Kara Swisher 2:44 Right.

Mel Robbins 2:44 This is this concept that there's a big difference between thinking and doing.

Kara Swisher 2:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 2:49 And there's this five-second window of hesitation that defines your whole life.

Kara Swisher 2:52 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 2:53 The moment you stop and consider how you feel about doing something, within five seconds, if you don't do it, your kind of automatic thinking loops will take over.

Kara Swisher 3:01 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:01 So, for example, when the alarm goes off in the morning-

Kara Swisher 3:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:04 ... you know that you're supposed to get out. You're the one who set-

Kara Swisher 3:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:08 ... the alarm.

Kara Swisher 3:08 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:09 And yet instead of just rolling out of bed-

Kara Swisher 3:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:11 ... what do we do? We stop and we think, "How do I feel about getting out of bed?"

Kara Swisher 3:15 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:16 And if you're stressed or anxious or depressed, which I was when I created this little hack-

Kara Swisher 3:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:21 ... if you stop and think, "It's cold, it's dark, I don't feel like it, my life's a nightmare, I hate my spouse, like-"

Kara Swisher 3:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:26 "...I'm just gonna go back to sleep," you will go back to sleep.

Kara Swisher 3:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:29 If you move within five seconds, everything changes. See, there's this huge mistake that people make-

Kara Swisher 3:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:34 ... I made this forever, thinking that at some point I'll feel like doing what I need to do.

Kara Swisher 3:38 Right.

Mel Robbins 3:39 And the fact is motivation is complete garbage.

Kara Swisher 3:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:42 You will never feel like doing the things that you need to do.

Kara Swisher 3:44 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:45 You need to develop this skill, everybody does-

Kara Swisher 3:47 Right.

Mel Robbins 3:48 ... to force yourself to take action-

Kara Swisher 3:50 Uh-huh.

Mel Robbins 3:50 ... before you feel ready.

Kara Swisher 3:52 I see.

Mel Robbins 3:53 And so, the Five Second Rule is a simple concept, you just count backwards-

Kara Swisher 3:56 Right.

Mel Robbins 3:56 ... the moment you feel hesitation kick in. Five, four, three, two, one, and then you move.

Kara Swisher 4:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 4:00 And you can use this to shortcut this default that a lot of us have-

Kara Swisher 4:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 4:05 ... which is a bias toward overthinking-

Kara Swisher 4:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 4:07 ... the smallest things that we need to do.

Kara Swisher 4:09 True. I, of course, completely went back to sleep this morning-

Mel Robbins 4:12 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 4:12 ... after the alarm went off. And I'm like, "Who set that alarm?"

Mel Robbins 4:15 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 4:15 "Who did that last night in my empty hotel room?" Um, i- uh, it's such a shift in what you're doing. And we're gonna talk a lot, a lot of things today-

Mel Robbins 4:22 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 4:23 ... including OpenAI trying to create what they call healthy use of ChatGPT. I wanna-

Mel Robbins 4:27 Okay.

Kara Swisher 4:27 Okay. Okay, sure.

Mel Robbins 4:28 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 4:28 Um, and you're gonna share some a- a- advice on, on news fatigue.

Kara Swisher 4:33 Um, but before w... let's talk about your latest book, The Let Them Theory.

Mel Robbins 4:36 Uh-huh.

Kara Swisher 4:36 Because you are a podcaster. This book is an enormous success. Let Them is everywhere.

Mel Robbins 4:41 Yes.

Kara Swisher 4:41 You know, and the reason... I was joking with you in a, in a, um, uh, i- in a text I said, "I'm a don't let them kinda gal." Like, which is kind of interesting. Um, but this book is, is running up the charts. Oprah called it a game changer and a life changer. Uh, lovely hugs, by the way, at whatever greenhouse she's doing her podcast in. Um, uh, people are getting Let Them tattoos.

Mel Robbins 5:02 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 5:02 I do not. I have, um, I have chaos, chaos and entropy and syntropy on my tattoos, which is very different that everything is on its way to destruction or creation. Um, talk about for everyone who hasn't heard it-

Mel Robbins 5:14 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 5:14 ... tell them what The Let Them Theory is all about-

Mel Robbins 5:16 Sure.

Kara Swisher 5:17 ... and, and, and how you came up with them.

Mel Robbins 5:19 Sure. So The Let Them Theory is a very simple concept, two simple words-

Kara Swisher 5:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 5:25 ... that's how you begin Let Them-

Kara Swisher 5:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 5:27 ... will help you live your life completely differently.

Kara Swisher 5:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 5:30 It is a philosophy that's all about control and power.

Kara Swisher 5:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 5:33 What is in your control?

Kara Swisher 5:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 5:35 What is not in your control?

Kara Swisher 5:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 5:37 And the fact is that most of us spend way too much of our time and energy burning through things that are beyond your control.

Kara Swisher 5:44 Right.

Mel Robbins 5:44 And the number one thing that is outside of your control at all times is other people.

Kara Swisher 5:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 5:48 What they think, what they do, what they say-

Kara Swisher 5:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 5:50 ... how they feel, what they believe. And I never realized the extent to which I was living my life navigating my day-to-day decisions based on other people's moods, their expectations-

Kara Swisher 6:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:00 ... trying to get them to think certain-

Kara Swisher 6:02 Most people do.

Mel Robbins 6:02 Yeah, everybody does.

Kara Swisher 6:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:03 Everybody does because we have a fundamental need to feel in control. It's a survival mechanism-

Kara Swisher 6:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:08 ... that's not going away.

Kara Swisher 6:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:09 But we make a mistake-... of thinking that the way to feel safer or more in control in your own life is to micromanage, change, and control other people.

Kara Swisher 6:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:19 So, if you were doing something that worried me or frustrated me, or made me feel nervous about something or hurt-

Kara Swisher 6:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:27 ... instead of crossing the line and trying to force you to change, which is what I did forever with my kids, with my husband, with the world around me, with my boss-

Kara Swisher 6:35 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:35 ... there's a simpler way to live your life. Just say, "Let them."

Kara Swisher 6:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:38 Let them think what they're gonna think.

Kara Swisher 6:39 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:39 Let them do what they're gonna do.

Kara Swisher 6:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:40 Let them be who they're gonna be. Let them feel what they're gonna feel.

Kara Swisher 6:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:43 Because I know that I can't control another human being.

Kara Swisher 6:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:47 And then you go to step two of the theory, which is you say, "Let me."

Kara Swisher 6:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:50 "Let me" is where you take your power back.

Kara Swisher 6:52 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:52 And instead of giving it to other people and outside forces, which only is gonna stress you out, by the way-

Kara Swisher 6:57 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:57 ... let me remind myself at any moment, there's only three things I can control. I can control what I think, I can control what I do or don't do.

Kara Swisher 7:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:06 And I can control how I respond to the feelings that are gonna automatically rise up.

Kara Swisher 7:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:12 That's all you've got.

Kara Swisher 7:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:13 And one of the reasons why this has spread around the world, and it's more than-

Kara Swisher 7:16 It really has, it's crazy.

Mel Robbins 7:17 Oh, no, it's six million copies in-

Kara Swisher 7:19 I know.

Mel Robbins 7:19 ... six and a half months.

Kara Swisher 7:20 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 7:20 It's the single most successful non-fiction book launch in history.

Kara Swisher 7:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:25 The reason why it is so successful is a couple reasons. Number one, we are living in a moment of unprecedented change.

Kara Swisher 7:32 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:32 The average person, this is research from Dr. Aneet, Aditi Nerurkar-

Kara Swisher 7:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:36 ... from Harvard Medical School.

Kara Swisher 7:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:38 She is one of the world's leading experts in stress as a medical condition.

Kara Swisher 7:42 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:43 Not stress, like, "I feel stressed-"

Kara Swisher 7:44 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:44 ... but the actual physiology-

Kara Swisher 7:46 Right.

Mel Robbins 7:46 ... of being stressed.

Kara Swisher 7:46 Inflammation, cortisol.

Mel Robbins 7:48 Oh, the fact that it's actually bigger than that.

Kara Swisher 7:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:50 Your... This is, again, Dr. Nerurkar's research.

Kara Swisher 7:54 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:54 What happens when you're, quote, "stressed" is that you switch gears in your brain-

Kara Swisher 7:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:59 ... and the amygdala takes over.

Kara Swisher 8:00 That's right. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:01 And that means that your prefrontal cortex is not able to function in its full capacity, which means strategic thinking out the window, emotional regulation out the window. And this is kind of the perfect place to start for all the topics you wanna talk about today-

Kara Swisher 8:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:15 ... because I think we tend to laser down onto the things that are frustrating us or scaring us-

Kara Swisher 8:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:21 ... without zooming out and seeing the bigger picture.

Kara Swisher 8:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:23 According to her research-

Kara Swisher 8:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:25 ... in the United States, 80% of human beings walking around are in a chronic state of stress.

Kara Swisher 8:31 Mm-hmm. Yes, they are, and which leads to health outcomes, is, uh, a number-

Mel Robbins 8:34 Well, not even health.

Kara Swisher 8:35 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 8:35 Like, it leads to-

Kara Swisher 8:36 Mental health, right.

Mel Robbins 8:38 ... the inability-

Kara Swisher 8:39 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:39 ... to think critically.

Kara Swisher 8:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:41 The inability to regulate your emotions.

Kara Swisher 8:44 Right.

Mel Robbins 8:44 And so you are dealing, nine times out of ten, or eight times out of ten, rather-

Kara Swisher 8:49 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:49 ... with somebody who is not fully able to function and-

Kara Swisher 8:55 So you're, basically what you're saying is the constant id.

Mel Robbins 8:57 Yes.

Kara Swisher 8:57 We become the id.

Mel Robbins 8:58 Yes.

Kara Swisher 8:58 Versus super-ego or ego.

Mel Robbins 9:00 Well, I, you know, those are big, fancy words.

Kara Swisher 9:01 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 9:02 Like, and this is the other reason why the "let them" theory-

Kara Swisher 9:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:04 ... is spread around the world.

Kara Swisher 9:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:04 It's super simple.

Kara Swisher 9:05 Right.

Mel Robbins 9:05 Everybody can say the words "let them".

Kara Swisher 9:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:08 And the second you say "let them", and this brings me-

Kara Swisher 9:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:10 ... to the third reason why-

Kara Swisher 9:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:11 ... this is so incredibly powerful-

Kara Swisher 9:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:13 ... is this is not a new idea.

Kara Swisher 9:14 Right.

Mel Robbins 9:15 Like, the reason why this is so successful is because I'm reminding you of what you already know to be true.

Kara Swisher 9:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:20 If you're a fan of Stoicism-

Kara Swisher 9:22 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:22 ... the "let them" theory is a modern-

Kara Swisher 9:23 That is correct.

Mel Robbins 9:24 ... version of that tool.

Kara Swisher 9:25 Yep.

Mel Robbins 9:25 If you're a fan of radical acceptance or detachment theory, "let them" is practicing detachment.

Kara Swisher 9:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:30 When you say "let me", you're reclaiming control over yourself.

Kara Swisher 9:32 'Cause they have to go together, you're talking-

Mel Robbins 9:34 They, oh, they have to go to, go together.

Kara Swisher 9:35 So, so, so, I, I joke about it, don't let them, is kind of my theory. My whole career is built on, oh, no, no, no, no, you may not do that.

Mel Robbins 9:42 Well, that's the "let me" part.

Kara Swisher 9:43 Is it?

Mel Robbins 9:44 Well, yeah, because-

Kara Swisher 9:45 Okay.

Mel Robbins 9:45 ... what's, uh, like, 'cause, like, let's just take politics for example.

Kara Swisher 9:48 Yeah, yeah.

Mel Robbins 9:48 All this stuff that we're upset about's already happening.

Kara Swisher 9:50 Right.

Mel Robbins 9:51 And so any of the , that you do that only stresses you out, by the way.

Kara Swisher 9:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:56 Which only compromises-

Kara Swisher 9:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:58 ... your ability-

Kara Swisher 9:59 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:00 ... to stay calm, confident, focused, and strategic-

Kara Swisher 10:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:04 ... because it's not about that out there.

Kara Swisher 10:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:07 The power in your life is your response to it. This is Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning.

Kara Swisher 10:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:11 Another reference to why this is so powerful.

Kara Swisher 10:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:13 I am giving you a tool, "let them" and "let me", to apply ancient philosophy, therapeutic modalities-

Kara Swisher 10:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:21 ... the Serenity Prayer in a moment.

Kara Swisher 10:22 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:22 Like, I've read every book on Stoicism.

Kara Swisher 10:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:24 I never knew how the hell to apply it when I was-

Kara Swisher 10:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:26 ... all stressed out-

Kara Swisher 10:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:26 ... because I was already hijacked by my amygdala.

Kara Swisher 10:29 Right.

Mel Robbins 10:29 I was already emotionally reactive. So when I say "let them", I drop down a boundary. Like, here's a simple way to use it. Everybody starts using it for day-to-day stress.

Kara Swisher 10:37 Sure.

Mel Robbins 10:37 Because let's face it, people are really fucking annoying.

Kara Swisher 10:39 They are.

Mel Robbins 10:40 And whether it's a slow walker, close talker, like people in traffic, the long-ass lines-

Kara Swisher 10:44 Man on train yesterday-

Mel Robbins 10:45 Yes.

Kara Swisher 10:46 ... doing a deal, mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:47 Yeah, you know, just like, "Oh my God."

Kara Swisher 10:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 10:49 But here's the thing.

Kara Swisher 10:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:51 Why on Earth-

Kara Swisher 10:52 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:53 ... would you give your two most important resources, which is your time and your energy-

Kara Swisher 11:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 11:00 ... to all these idiots walking around-

Kara Swisher 11:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 11:02 ... that are disrespectful, rude, and annoying?

Kara Swisher 11:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 11:04 Don't do it.

Kara Swisher 11:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 11:06 Don't do it. Your time and energy is so much more valuable. So when you say "let them", what you're doing is you're reminding yourself that whatever is triggering you right now-

Kara Swisher 11:15 Right.

Mel Robbins 11:15 ... is not deserving of your time and energy. And then when you say "let me", you remind yourself that no matter what's going on around you, there are still simple things you can do-

Kara Swisher 11:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 11:27 ... in response to it that help you stay in control.

Kara Swisher 11:30 So it's not the idea, 'cause it, uh, some people, uh, who are, who could be critical of this is like, like, you don't wanna let it, and we're not, um, we're not talking about politics here, but Donald Trump's the perfect example. You don't wanna let the government change, like, take away rights from people. You don't wanna let-

Mel Robbins 11:43 Absolutely not.

Kara Swisher 11:43 That's not what you're saying here.

Mel Robbins 11:45 Absolutely not.

Kara Swisher 11:45 "Let them" isn't, "Well, they're going to cut funds for NPR, let them."

Mel Robbins 11:49 Right. Well, here's the thing, they just did.

Kara Swisher 11:51 Yes, they did.

Mel Robbins 11:51 So, like, "let them" is radical acceptance of what's happening-

Kara Swisher 11:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 11:55 ... instead of gaslighting yourself.

Kara Swisher 11:56 Right.

Mel Robbins 11:56 Okay?

Kara Swisher 11:57 Right.

Mel Robbins 11:57 "Let me" is-

Kara Swisher 11:58 But you're not saying "let them", it's a good thing, it's-

Mel Robbins 12:00 No.

Kara Swisher 12:01 No.

Mel Robbins 12:01 I'm saying "let them" forces you-

Kara Swisher 12:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:03 ... to accept the facts that you're dealing with.

Kara Swisher 12:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:06 And "let me" is how you cue yourself-

Kara Swisher 12:10 To take back power.

Mel Robbins 12:12 Correct.

Kara Swisher 12:12 Right, okay.

Mel Robbins 12:13 And, and if you allow all of the upset, and there's a lot of upsetting things going on-

Kara Swisher 12:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:18 ... and terrifying things that are going on in the world right now-

Kara Swisher 12:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:20 But if you allow what's happening or has already happened-

Kara Swisher 12:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:24 ... to stress you out to a point where you are frozen-

Kara Swisher 12:27 Correct. That's-

Mel Robbins 12:28 ... or you are anxious, or you are now spiraling in depression-

Kara Swisher 12:31 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:31 ... now you have no power to respond-

Kara Swisher 12:34 Right.

Mel Robbins 12:34 ... in a way, either with yourself and your own stress and mental health, or within your family, or within your community-

Kara Swisher 12:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:40 ... or within your state, or within the nation at large.

Kara Swisher 12:43 Sure.

Mel Robbins 12:43 You have so much more power than you realize, but you don't understand that because like me, you have been giving it away without knowing it.

Kara Swisher 12:50 So y- so you're talking about in "Let Them," you're giving away power.

Mel Robbins 12:54 Yes.

Kara Swisher 12:54 Eh, versus not being passive, right? It's not a, where "Let Them" is not a pass-

Mel Robbins 12:59 It's the opposite of passive.

Kara Swisher 13:00 ... passive, because one of the things, um, y- when you're, when you're doing the idea of "Let Them," eh, I often get in arguments with people when they're talking about Donald Trump and they go into the doom s- str-

Mel Robbins 13:10 Uh-huh.

Kara Swisher 13:10 ... what I call. I was like, "What are you gonna do about it?" Like, stop, like we ne- like so- some people are like, "Can you believe Donald Trump did blank?" For example.

Mel Robbins 13:17 Yes.

Kara Swisher 13:17 He's the, he's the perfect-

Mel Robbins 13:17 The answer for me is always yes.

Kara Swisher 13:18 Yes, I do. Yes, I do-

Mel Robbins 13:19 Yes. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 13:19 ... because he's a racist. He's homophobic. He's tran- anti-trans. Yes, I do believe it. Yes. And so-

Mel Robbins 13:25 It's, it's, it, it, like for me, I'm just surprised anybody's surprised by it.

Kara Swisher 13:28 Right, exactly, which they constantly are.

Mel Robbins 13:30 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 13:30 That's one of his magic, I have to say, one of his magical moves.

Mel Robbins 13:31 Well, this is also classic with narcissism-

Kara Swisher 13:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 13:34 ... is that when you're dealing with somebody that has a personality style-

Kara Swisher 13:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 13:38 ... that is narcissistic-

Kara Swisher 13:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 13:40 ... the people around that person constantly give that behavior power-

Kara Swisher 13:45 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 13:45 ... by trying to explain it.

Kara Swisher 13:46 Right.

Mel Robbins 13:47 Instead, let them reveal who they are.

Kara Swisher 13:49 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 13:49 And stop gaslighting yourself into believing this person's ever gonna change.

Kara Swisher 13:53 I- i- it's actually, I actually did use, at first I was like, "I'm not gonna let them." My, uh, I have a difficult relationship with my mom and, um, and I used your "Let Them" 'cause she, I always get pulled into, like, something and I have to say, it's working. It's ver- and then-

Mel Robbins 14:04 Well, you know why it's working?

Kara Swisher 14:05 ... it- it- it's oddly working because-

Mel Robbins 14:06 I'll tell you why it's working, Kara, and here's the reason why is because, uh, my favorite expert on the narcissistic personality style-

Kara Swisher 14:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:14 ... is Dr. Ramani Diversla.

Kara Swisher 14:16 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:16 Okay? And Dr. Ramani basically says that one of the most damaging things that we can do when we have a very challenging personality-

Kara Swisher 14:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:27 ... especially with people that are closer to us 'cause it's easy on the internet to, you know-

Kara Swisher 14:30 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:30 ... "Oh, cut 'em out of your life."

Kara Swisher 14:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:32 Most of us-

Kara Swisher 14:33 Right.

Mel Robbins 14:33 ... have somebody very challenging in our life-

Kara Swisher 14:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:35 ... and we're not just gonna cut them out of our life. We wanna figure out how to deal with them-

Kara Swisher 14:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:38 ... whether it's an ex-

Kara Swisher 14:39 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:39 ... or it is a parent, or it's a child that's acting out, or a boss-

Kara Swisher 14:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:43 ... or whatever, that one of the most dangerous things you can do is hope that the person's gonna change.

Kara Swisher 14:48 Right.

Mel Robbins 14:49 If you say, "Let them," let their behavior be the truth of who this person is-

Kara Swisher 14:54 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:54 ... you are forcing yourself to recognize who this person is and now-

Kara Swisher 14:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:58 ... let me decide how much time do they get, how much energy do they get of mine.

Kara Swisher 15:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:02 Let me stop wishing they would change and let me just-

Kara Swisher 15:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:05 ... actually learn how to accept who this person is and who they aren't-

Kara Swisher 15:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:09 ... and stop gaslighting myself with some fantasy about who they may become.

Kara Swisher 15:13 Y- you don't think people should have a role in trying to change people though? The idea?

Mel Robbins 15:17 I think that your only role-

Kara Swisher 15:19 Especially people you care about. I'm not talking about the guy on the train. I just go around it.

Mel Robbins 15:22 Well, here's the thing. I'm super pragmatic.

Kara Swisher 15:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:24 So, I don't wanna waste my time 'cause I've wasted 50 years of my life doing dumb shit that didn't work and then-

Kara Swisher 15:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:29 ... causing myself stress and hurt and frustration and causing other people stress and hurt and frustration.

Kara Swisher 15:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:34 Our desire to change other people typically comes from a place of love.

Kara Swisher 15:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:37 Like, we want the best for our kids. We want the best for our families.

Kara Swisher 15:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:40 We wanna get along with everybody. That's a wonderful thing.

Kara Swisher 15:42 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:43 But what I realized in doing the research for this book, because there are 57 world-renowned experts that are cited in this book, 18-page bibliography, and the "Let Them" theory over and over, "Let Them" and "Let Me," helps you access-

Kara Swisher 15:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:56 ... the advice and the research that everybody says of what works. So let's take a look at this dynamic of wanting to change other people.

Kara Swisher 16:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 16:04 You're always gonna wanna change other people. That's a good thing.

Kara Swisher 16:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 16:06 But let's go about it and be very smart about it.

Kara Swisher 16:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 16:09 Because here's the thing. We all have a fundamental need to be in control of our lives, our decisions, our timelines, what's gonna happen at work. And when you start to worry about, like, for example, your kids. So I was really worri- I'll use an example from my own life.

Kara Swisher 16:23 Okay.

Mel Robbins 16:23 We, I have three kids. 26, 24, and our son is 20. And our son, Oakley, is this wonderful, like, just casserole of a kid of things, you know, he had major dyslexia and ADHD and dysgraphia and he bounced from the public school to this school for language-based learning and he was, like, hated school and didn't have a lot of friends and as a parent, I was so tied in knots and worried about this kid.

Kara Swisher 16:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 16:47 And so, he would, like a lot of kids, especially young men, he, I would hear him upstairs-

Kara Swisher 16:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 16:53 ... playing video games. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 16:54 Right.

Mel Robbins 16:55 Out of school. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 16:56 Right.

Mel Robbins 16:57 And n- he's n- he wasn't doing well in school at the time and kinda checked out and I would go marching up the stairs-

Kara Swisher 17:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:03 ... 'cause I'm worried about him-

Kara Swisher 17:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:04 ... and I want him to be motivated-

Kara Swisher 17:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:05 ... and I want him to thrive.

Kara Swisher 17:06 Did you march just like that?

Mel Robbins 17:07 Oh yeah, just my arms pumping and just, "Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop."

Kara Swisher 17:11 Okay. (laughs) Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:11 That's why w- they were headphones-

Kara Swisher 17:12 Yeah, yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:12 ... 'cause I know you're gonna do it.

Kara Swisher 17:13 All right.

Mel Robbins 17:13 Swing open the door, "Hey, you know, you need to get off the..." First of all, do I really think he's an idiot?

Kara Swisher 17:22 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:23 Of course your kid knows-

Kara Swisher 17:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:25 ... that playing video games is not gonna help the problem that he's feeling at school. Do you wanna know the hardest working kid in school?

Kara Swisher 17:31 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:31 It's not the kid getting As.

Kara Swisher 17:32 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:33 It's the kid that's failing.

Kara Swisher 17:34 Right.

Mel Robbins 17:34 Do you know how hard it is to sit in a classroom and not be able to do what's being asked of you?

Kara Swisher 17:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:39 And so all he thinks about is that.

Kara Swisher 17:41 Right.

Mel Robbins 17:41 And now I go in and march in like Miss Bossy with all the answers telling him what to do-

Kara Swisher 17:46 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:46 ... kinda like we do with our spouses, "You know, you really should exercise." "Oh, thanks a lot. You don't, you don't think I thought about taking a walk," like, f- you know, "Fuck you." And so what happens is our desire to change people because we want them to thrive-

Kara Swisher 17:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:58 ... and we want the best for them-

Kara Swisher 18:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 18:00 ... the second I tell you what to do-

Kara Swisher 18:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 18:02 ... I bump up against your need to control yourself.

Kara Swisher 18:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 18:05 So instead of motivating you, you know what I just did?

Kara Swisher 18:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 18:08 I actually created the standoff.

Kara Swisher 18:09 You're right. You're right.

Mel Robbins 18:10 No it's not, this is, my favorite person on this, there's two experts that you should talk to. One is Doc-

Kara Swisher 18:15 Okay.

Mel Robbins 18:15 ... he goes by Dr. K The Healthy Gamer.

Kara Swisher 18:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 18:17 He, uh, Harvard-trained psychiatrist that is a specialist in gaming addiction and now his entire business is training other therapists.

Kara Swisher 18:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 18:25 And basically-The entire thing about motivation is we are working against the circuitry.

Kara Swisher 18:31 Yes, absolutely, especially with some of this addictive stuff.

Mel Robbins 18:34 Uh, yes, that people only change when they're ready to change-

Kara Swisher 18:40 Sure.

Mel Robbins 18:40 ... for themselves.

Kara Swisher 18:41 Sure. Th- yeah.

Mel Robbins 18:42 I know, w- when we say sure-

Kara Swisher 18:43 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 18:43 ... but then we're like, "Buddy, you know-"

Kara Swisher 18:45 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 18:45 "... how about a trainer?"

Kara Swisher 18:46 Right.

Mel Robbins 18:46 "Hey, you know, maybe you shouldn't eat that second slice of bread." Or-

Kara Swisher 18:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 18:48 "Maybe you shouldn't have the fourth beer."

Kara Swisher 18:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 18:50 And they're like, "Fuck you, I'm gonna have that."

Kara Swisher 18:52 Right.

Mel Robbins 18:52 "Don't tell me what to do."

Kara Swisher 18:53 Right.

Mel Robbins 18:54 And so we create these standoffs instead of using the research-

Kara Swisher 18:59 Right.

Mel Robbins 18:59 ... to actually sneakily-

Kara Swisher 19:01 Right.

Mel Robbins 19:01 ... influence them and make them think it's their idea.

Kara Swisher 19:03 By letting them do it, yeah.

Mel Robbins 19:04 Well, here's what you're gonna do. So another, a second expert that I love is Dr. Stuart Ablon.

Kara Swisher 19:09 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 19:09 He's at Mass General Brigham.

Kara Swisher 19:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 19:10 Harvard, uh-

Kara Swisher 19:12 Great hospital.

Mel Robbins 19:12 ... Medical School professor. He also is the founder of THINKkids-

Kara Swisher 19:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 19:15 ... so he's been a child psychologist for 30 years. His entire body of work says that let's just assume everybody in life wants to thrive.

Kara Swisher 19:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 19:26 Let's assume everybody wants to be happy and healthy.

Kara Swisher 19:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 19:29 When somebody is challenging or somebody is like not thriving in life, we jump in and think it's a problem of willpower.

Kara Swisher 19:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 19:38 He doesn't believe that.

Kara Swisher 19:39 Right.

Mel Robbins 19:39 He believes it's an issue of skill, and it's an issue of discouragement, and I believe this too. I believe that the single biggest thing that stands in people's way in today's world is discouragement and lack of hope.

Kara Swisher 19:51 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 19:51 This belief that, "Okay, well, that works for Cara, but it doesn't work for me."

Kara Swisher 19:54 Right.

Mel Robbins 19:54 "You know, that's nice for that person, but that's never gonna work for me." Because you can have all the advice in the world, and we're gonna get to-

Kara Swisher 20:00 Yeah, that-

Mel Robbins 20:00 ... AI and chat and, you know-

Kara Swisher 20:01 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:01 ... like the advice is there.

Kara Swisher 20:02 Right.

Mel Robbins 20:03 But if you believe it's not gonna work for you, you're never going to actually do it.

Kara Swisher 20:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:07 And so the thing that you're battling in a kid that's not motivated or a person in your life that's not losing the weight-

Kara Swisher 20:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:13 ... or not getting the help that they need, is that they actually believe deep down somewhere that it's not gonna work for them.

Kara Swisher 20:18 Right.

Mel Robbins 20:19 And at some point, the only way that they're gonna change is they're gonna have to get to a point where staying where they are is actually harder than doing the very difficult work that it takes to change.

Kara Swisher 20:32 Are there any surprising use cases you've heard from others with this, the... You, you just discussed your son, how you use it in your day-to-day life.

Mel Robbins 20:38 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 20:38 Is there a surprising case, and is there one where you should not use "let them"?

Mel Robbins 20:44 Well, again, you need to... I don't, I don't know of a single case-

Kara Swisher 20:49 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:49 ... where you shouldn't use "let them" because there's always the "let me" part.

Kara Swisher 20:52 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:52 Like, for example, if you're in a situation where you have a friend that's wasted-

Kara Swisher 20:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:56 ... and they're like, "Oh," and they're grabbing their keys-

Kara Swisher 20:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:58 ... you're not gonna just let them walk out the door.

Kara Swisher 21:00 Right.

Mel Robbins 21:00 But they're already grabbing their keys.

Kara Swisher 21:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:02 You gotta go to the "let me" part.

Kara Swisher 21:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:04 "Let me step in."

Kara Swisher 21:06 Right.

Mel Robbins 21:06 "Let me take the keys."

Kara Swisher 21:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:08 "Let me do the thing that is going to prevent them from doing something destructive right now."

Kara Swisher 21:12 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:12 But here's the problem, most people don't do that in front of you.

Kara Swisher 21:14 Right.

Mel Robbins 21:15 Most people that are struggling are really good at hiding it because they already feel-

Kara Swisher 21:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:19 ... a deep sense of shame about it.

Kara Swisher 21:20 Right. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:21 And so the approach that I think is the use case that's incredible comes from Dr. Stuart Ablon, and it's taking the "let them", which is let somebody just be where they are.

Kara Swisher 21:31 Right.

Mel Robbins 21:31 Let them be who they are, let them struggle-

Kara Swisher 21:33 Right.

Mel Robbins 21:34 ... and let me take a different approach. And that approach is-

Kara Swisher 21:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:38 ... with them-

Kara Swisher 21:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:38 ... not at them.

Kara Swisher 21:39 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:39 And so the approach is simple, you literally take the stance, I break it down into something I call the ABC loop.

Kara Swisher 21:46 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:46 And the ABC loop is just a three-part conversation. The first thing you're gonna do with anybody that's struggling in your life, and this is the most surprising use case-

Kara Swisher 21:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:53 ... it works like a charm, is you apologize.

Kara Swisher 21:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:57 You apologize to the person for assuming you know what's going on and for badgering them and pressuring them.

Kara Swisher 22:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:03 And so with, you know, instance with my son, "Hey, buddy, I'm really sorry."

Kara Swisher 22:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:07 "Must be completely annoying to have me constantly nagging you."

Kara Swisher 22:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:10 "I'm really sorry about that."

Kara Swisher 22:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:12 And first of all, if it's a kid, they're gonna be like, "Hmm? What?"

Kara Swisher 22:15 (laughs) They're waiting for the hit.

Mel Robbins 22:16 And by the way, the best place to have this conversation is a car.

Kara Swisher 22:19 Right.

Mel Robbins 22:19 'Cause they're trapped.

Kara Swisher 22:20 Uh-huh.

Mel Robbins 22:20 You don't have to look at each other.

Kara Swisher 22:21 Right.

Mel Robbins 22:21 There's something about the forward ambulation of being in a moving vehicle that sort of opens up things.

Kara Swisher 22:25 Mm-hmm. I have a lot of good discussions with my kids in the car too.

Mel Robbins 22:26 Yes, yes. And so you apologize, and then what you're going to do is you're going to ask, this is the A, open-ended question. "I've, I've never even asked you, how do you feel about how school's going?"

Kara Swisher 22:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:39 "How do you feel-"

Kara Swisher 22:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:41 "... about how you're doing?" And even if they're like, "Hmm?"

Kara Swisher 22:44 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:44 The experts say it doesn't matter what they say.

Kara Swisher 22:47 Right.

Mel Robbins 22:48 Because the internal friction that you're creating-

Kara Swisher 22:52 It's not you telling them what you think about how they're doing.

Mel Robbins 22:54 Right. They know how they're doing.

Kara Swisher 22:55 Right.

Mel Robbins 22:55 Human beings aren't idiots.

Kara Swisher 22:57 Right.

Mel Robbins 22:57 They know when they're not thriving.

Kara Swisher 22:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:59 But we don't stop and ask them how they feel about it.

Kara Swisher 23:01 Right.

Mel Robbins 23:01 And so even being asked to consider-

Kara Swisher 23:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:04 ... "How do I feel about my health right now?"

Kara Swisher 23:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:06 "How do I feel about the fact that my mother's dying? How do I feel about the fact that I might lose my job to AI?"

Kara Swisher 23:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:13 It's stirring up the friction that most of us repress.

Kara Swisher 23:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:16 And then what do you do? That's all you gotta do.

Kara Swisher 23:19 We have C. We just had B.

Mel Robbins 23:20 Back off. Well, B is back off.

Kara Swisher 23:21 B is back off, yeah.

Mel Robbins 23:22 Back off.

Kara Swisher 23:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:23 You gotta back off, and you've got to wait. And then C is the hard part, you gotta model the change.

Kara Swisher 23:29 Mm-hmm. So is... But, but "let me" is a version-

Mel Robbins 23:32 Uh-huh.

Kara Swisher 23:33 ... of "don't let them" in a weir... It's a different version, right?

Mel Robbins 23:35 Yes. Yeah. See, I want you to be sneaky.

Kara Swisher 23:36 All right.

Mel Robbins 23:36 I don't want you to w- I don't want you to cl- I don't want you to try to change people 'cause it's gonna backfire.

Kara Swisher 23:40 Correct. Correct.

Mel Robbins 23:40 I want you to use your influence because... I'll, I'll give you an example that'll make a lot of sense.

Kara Swisher 23:44 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:44 Let's say you and I are at work.

Kara Swisher 23:45 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:46 And every single day around lunch, you close your laptop, you get up, you walk outside, you go for a walk. You come back 30 minutes later. You just look happy, refreshed.

Kara Swisher 23:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:56 Sit back down, you're like tap, tap. Now, meanwhile, I'm jamming the tuna sandwich down my throat, and I'm working through lunch.

Kara Swisher 24:01 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:01 You never once asked me to go for a walk.

Kara Swisher 24:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:05 About a month after watching you do this-

Kara Swisher 24:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:07 ... something interesting is gonna happen.

Kara Swisher 24:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:09 This is research, by the way, from Dr. Tali Sharot. She studies the science of influence.

Kara Swisher 24:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:14 About a month after watching you do this-

Kara Swisher 24:16 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:17 ... all of a sudden one day, I'm gonna close my laptop and go for a walk. And you wanna know something weird?

Kara Swisher 24:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:21 I'm gonna think it's my idea.

Kara Swisher 24:23 Right, right.

Mel Robbins 24:24 But you and the power of your example and influence-

Kara Swisher 24:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:28 ... is the thing...... that actually influenced me in changing my own behavior.

Kara Swisher 24:33 'Cause you saw it, you saw a pattern.

Mel Robbins 24:34 And I saw you enjoying it.

Kara Swisher 24:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:38 And I sat with the fact that every day at lunch, I sit there and make a different decision, and I know deep down-

Kara Swisher 24:45 It's a bad decision.

Mel Robbins 24:46 Correct.

Kara Swisher 24:48 You still can invite someone if... Correct?

Mel Robbins 24:49 You can, yeah. You can.

Kara Swisher 24:51 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 24:52 No pressure.

Kara Swisher 24:52 Right. If you-

Mel Robbins 24:53 "Hey, you wanna go for a walk?" And if they don't, be like, "Okay, you're missing out. Don't do that."

Kara Swisher 24:56 Right. I would miss it.

Mel Robbins 24:56 "Yeah, well, fuck you. I got work to do."

Kara Swisher 24:58 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 24:58 Like, see what I'm saying? Like, and so, again, people change when they're ready to change.

Kara Swisher 25:03 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 25:03 And people only change for themselves.

Kara Swisher 25:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:05 And, you know, Doctor- Doctor K-

Kara Swisher 25:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:07 ... who I also love, basically said the basic wiring of the human brain is we default and move towards what's easy.

Kara Swisher 25:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:14 And we reject what feels difficult.

Kara Swisher 25:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:16 And that's why, back to my original point-

Kara Swisher 25:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:18 ... you have to develop a skill for yourself-

Kara Swisher 25:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:21 ... where you're not sitting around waiting for it to feel easy to do the thing.

Kara Swisher 25:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:24 Where you actually understand it's never going to feel easy.

Kara Swisher 25:26 Right, right, right.

Mel Robbins 25:27 Five, four, three, two, one-

Kara Swisher 25:28 Right.

Mel Robbins 25:29 ... I'm gonna do the thing.

Kara Swisher 25:29 Right. Certain people, it's very easy to let them. Other people, it's not so hard. That's the difficulty. Like my son, my oldest son, it, I do a lot of, uh, I do a version of that, I guess. Like, "How do you feel?" And-

Mel Robbins 25:41 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 25:41 ... um, "Sounds good. I really trust you." I often say, "I really trust your instinct on lots of things," and-

Mel Robbins 25:47 You're a great mom.

Kara Swisher 25:48 Not all the time, but-

Mel Robbins 25:49 No, I, I'm, uh, let me tell you why that's important.

Kara Swisher 25:51 It works on them, but other people, it doesn't. It doesn't work with my mom, I have to say, it doesn't.

Mel Robbins 25:54 Well, 'cause she's got a narcissistic personality style.

Kara Swisher 25:56 Right. Right. It gets to me.

Mel Robbins 25:57 So she's gonna do what she's ever gonna do.

Kara Swisher 25:59 Yeah, yeah.

Mel Robbins 25:59 But you've gotta let her be who she is. Your relationship will change with her profoundly, and I'm glad it's working for you-

Kara Swisher 26:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:05 ... because it's gonna help you access detachment theory and radical acceptance.

Kara Swisher 26:09 Well, that's where I have to go, too.

Mel Robbins 26:10 Uh, you do, you, she is never gonna change.

Kara Swisher 26:12 60 years in. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 26:13 She's never... But I have to do the same thing.

Kara Swisher 26:14 You remember Joan Didion? She said, "I'm in a, a, a, a war with my, uh, my mother that I, that continues forever, this quiet war-"

Mel Robbins 26:21 Uh-huh.

Kara Swisher 26:21 "... that goes on and on and on."

Mel Robbins 26:22 Uh-huh, because you wish-

Kara Swisher 26:24 It was different.

Mel Robbins 26:24 Yes.

Kara Swisher 26:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:25 And that's what Doctor Ramani Durvasula says.

Kara Swisher 26:27 Right, right.

Mel Robbins 26:28 Wishing somebody else is different-

Kara Swisher 26:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:31 ... is the source of your suffering in a relationship.

Kara Swisher 26:33 Right, that's sort of Buddhism, right? It is. Well, again, the let them theory is also radical... It's also- It is.

Mel Robbins 26:37 ... the Serenity Prayer.

Kara Swisher 26:38 Yeah, totally.

Mel Robbins 26:39 It is Buddhism.

Kara Swisher 26:39 Right.

Mel Robbins 26:40 And so, I-

Kara Swisher 26:41 You got a lot of stuff in there. You got Stoicism and you've got a lot of...

Mel Robbins 26:43 Because it all traces back to the fundamental truth-

Kara Swisher 26:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:49 ... that there's only three things you can control in life.

Kara Swisher 26:51 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:52 It's what you think about what's happening. It's what you do or don't do in response.

Kara Swisher 26:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:56 And with our parents or the people in our life that are very challenging-

Kara Swisher 27:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:00 ... what you don't do is almost more important than what you do do. And it's what you do in response to those emotions. Like, you may always, and lots of us will feel that wave of grief and disappointment-

Kara Swisher 27:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:11 ... because a person can't be who we want them to be-

Kara Swisher 27:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:14 ... and who we maybe deserve-

Kara Swisher 27:16 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:16 ... to have them be.

Kara Swisher 27:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:17 And those feelings are extremely valid and important.

Kara Swisher 27:20 Yeah, you think you can change it, yeah.

Mel Robbins 27:22 Yes, but what you do with it-

Kara Swisher 27:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:24 ... is what matters more, because that's where your power is. And ultimately, as you start to use this, and again, you'll start to use it, let them. When, you just, you, the moment you feel frustrated about anything-

Kara Swisher 27:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:33 ... and you'll notice it's 99% of the time about other people's behavior-

Kara Swisher 27:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:37 ... and you say, "Let them," your shoulders drop because you're putting a boundary up between yourself and the world, where normally you'd allow the outside world and other people-

Kara Swisher 27:47 It, it, it does-

Mel Robbins 27:47 ... to impact you.

Kara Swisher 27:48 Yeah, it does make a lot of sense. I'm still not gonna let the tech bros do it, 'cause they're, you know. You know the word tech bro?

Mel Robbins 27:52 Well, uh, it-

Kara Swisher 27:52 Tech- technically broken.

Mel Robbins 27:53 Well, but hold on. You don't have a choice.

Kara Swisher 27:57 That's correct.

Mel Robbins 27:58 But you-

Kara Swisher 27:59 You have a choice of what to do about it. You're right.

Mel Robbins 28:00 Correct.

Kara Swisher 28:00 You're the second part. Oh, you're so tricky. All right, Mel, (laughs) let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about people turning to AI for mental health advice. Support for this show comes from United Airlines. Let's skip the travel myths. Newark has actually been New York City's most on-time airport since June. So you have places to be, don't change your airport. Book United Airlines through Newark with confidence. According to A14 on-time performance and cancellation data for arrivals and departures among DOT-reporting carriers from MassFlight for June 2nd through July 14th, 2025. Copyright 2025, United Airlines Inc. All rights

Kara Swisher 28:36 reserved. Mel, we're back. Illinois just became the first state to regulate the use of AI in mental healthcare. The new law bans AI from acting as a standalone therapist and sets guardrails of how mental health professionals can use AI to support care. Meanwhile, OpenAI is updating ChatGPT to better detect emotional distress. The company says its GPT, uh, uh, 4o model fell short in recognizing signs of delusion and emotional dependency in some cases, you think? The new behavior, uh, to handle what OpenAI calls high-stakes personal decisions is rolling out soon. Um, talk a little bit about this, 'cause a lot of people-

Mel Robbins 29:12 A-

Kara Swisher 29:12 ... are relying on, a ton of people are now.

Mel Robbins 29:14 A lot of people?

Kara Swisher 29:15 Uh, uh, enough people.

Mel Robbins 29:16 Now, hold on a second. There's actually a recent-

Kara Swisher 29:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:19 ... report from Harvard-

Kara Swisher 29:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:20 ... Business-

Kara Swisher 29:20 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 29:21 ... that says that since 2024 to 2025-

Kara Swisher 29:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:24 ... this is, uh, literally it just came out a couple months ago, that the single top use case for generative AI in 2025 is therapy and companionship.

Kara Swisher 29:32 Therapy, right.

Mel Robbins 29:33 And I just want everybody to sit with that right now.

Kara Swisher 29:36 Millions of people.

Mel Robbins 29:37 Uh, well, there's 700 million people that are using generative AI-

Kara Swisher 29:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:41 ... every week.

Kara Swisher 29:41 Yep.

Mel Robbins 29:42 The top use case-

Kara Swisher 29:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:43 ... Harvard Business School report.

Kara Swisher 29:45 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:45 And this is a major change from 2024, is for-

Kara Swisher 29:49 Which was usually just, "I wanna get airline tickets."

Mel Robbins 29:52 Generating ideas. Generating ideas.

Kara Swisher 29:53 Right, strategy.

Mel Robbins 29:54 So 2024 was generating ideas, specific search. It was therapy and companionship. But now it's therapy and companionship number one.

Kara Swisher 30:01 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:02 And so it is happening.

Kara Swisher 30:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:05 And the first thing I wanna say is I really wanna applaud what's happening in Illinois.

Kara Swisher 30:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:09 Because one of the things that is terrifying about what's happening with AI, and there's lots of wonderful things that are happening, but let's just talk about the terrifying thing that's happening. There's zero regulation.

Kara Swisher 30:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:18 Zero. And if we have a situation where people are turning to AI in order to get advice, it's already happening.

Kara Swisher 30:28 Right.

Mel Robbins 30:29 And the problem...... because there is good stuff here. I brought a bunch of studies to talk about here, and I want to zoom out-

Kara Swisher 30:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:36 ... and talk about, well, why is this happening?

Kara Swisher 30:37 Right.

Mel Robbins 30:38 The reason why people are turning toward AI-

Kara Swisher 30:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:41 ... is because we are, first of all, as we've already discussed, living in an unprecedented moment of change-

Kara Swisher 30:46 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:46 ... and overwhelm and insecurity.

Kara Swisher 30:47 Right. Information flood versus information desert, which existed before.

Mel Robbins 30:51 And what we have is also, combine that with a, a medical fact. Dr. Aditi Nerurkar, Harvard Medical School, 80% of people in the United States are living in a state of chronic stress.

Kara Swisher 31:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:02 Meaning you're in fight or flight.

Kara Swisher 31:03 Right.

Mel Robbins 31:04 Meaning-

Kara Swisher 31:04 Constantly.

Mel Robbins 31:05 Constantly.

Kara Swisher 31:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:06 And so if you're finding, as you're listening right now, that you're constantly overthinking, you're procrastinating more, you feel a little bit more anxious, you're having trouble thinking...

Kara Swisher 31:15 And you have the tools to help you do that, doom scrolling or constant news.

Mel Robbins 31:18 Yes. Yes.

Kara Swisher 31:18 As well. We'll talk about that in a second.

Mel Robbins 31:20 Your body won't reset-

Kara Swisher 31:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:21 ... without you resetting your stress response.

Kara Swisher 31:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:24 And so you have this backdrop where you've got people in a state where they need support, and in the United States alone, for every 1,600 people that have depression or anxiety, there's only one mental health professional.

Kara Swisher 31:39 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:40 And that's in the United States.

Kara Swisher 31:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:41 There are some places in the world where for every 300,000 people that have depression-

Kara Swisher 31:47 Only one.

Mel Robbins 31:47 ... there's one.

Kara Swisher 31:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:49 And so there is a huge need. But let's talk ab-

Kara Swisher 31:51 Also, people aren't connecting with their own close people too.

Mel Robbins 31:55 Yes. Yes.

Kara Swisher 31:55 They don't have that at work or wherever.

Mel Robbins 31:57 Yes. And so I think it's important to just say that we need to look at the fact that people are searching for answers, and I personally believe that the fact that somebody is searching for answers is a good thing.

Kara Swisher 32:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:07 Now, let's talk about where AI can support and where AI is very-

Kara Swisher 32:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:11 ... very problematic.

Kara Swisher 32:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:12 'Cause I think the single biggest issue that we're facing when it comes to generative AI is there's zero regulation.

Kara Swisher 32:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:18 And we're living in a world, especially in the United States, where we now have a government that's more focused on profit than people.

Kara Swisher 32:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:24 We have, uh, business regulation getting gutted.

Kara Swisher 32:26 Right.

Mel Robbins 32:26 In fact, you know, you've got the, the backdrop of Illinois passing this law-

Kara Swisher 32:31 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:31 ... which might... I think it's a fabulous thing, but here's my concern. It seems like the law is focused primarily on AI products that are marketed as therapy.

Kara Swisher 32:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:41 My concern is the average person-

Kara Swisher 32:43 All of them.

Mel Robbins 32:43 ... is just going right there and doing a prompt.

Kara Swisher 32:44 Right, and it's also OpenAI-

Mel Robbins 32:46 Yes.

Kara Swisher 32:46 ... is still the largest.

Mel Robbins 32:47 Yes.

Kara Swisher 32:47 And, and, uh, now they are trying to do things like sending out reminders for people to take a break when they've been chatting with a bot, but they also benefit from people just as any other, uh, just as Facebook does and others' time spent-

Mel Robbins 32:57 Well, here's my concern.

Kara Swisher 32:58 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 32:58 Here's my concern. My concern is that against the backdrop of Illinois-

Kara Swisher 33:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:02 ... doing something incredibly positive-

Kara Swisher 33:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:03 ... 'cause this is what has to happen. What has to happen is we've got to wake the hell up-

Kara Swisher 33:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:08 ... and recognize that this thing is so out of control already, and we can dig into other areas-

Kara Swisher 33:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:12 ... and examples that I can give you from my own life.

Kara Swisher 33:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:14 In terms of-

Kara Swisher 33:15 Please do.

Mel Robbins 33:15 ... where this is spinning out of control. But you've got to understand that this is, this is against a backdrop where the Trump administration just revealed an AI plan outlining a 10-year moratorium-

Kara Swisher 33:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:27 ... on states being able to regulate this.

Kara Swisher 33:28 Yes, they tried.

Mel Robbins 33:29 And so you have platforms that are unregulated.

Kara Swisher 33:32 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:33 You have businesses-

Kara Swisher 33:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:34 ... just pumping out these new businesses-

Kara Swisher 33:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:37 ... without regulation-

Kara Swisher 33:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:38 ... and they are preying on people who need actual help.

Kara Swisher 33:42 So they're, they're, they're meeting a need, which is what they're very good at. They're i- identifying meeting a need, and one of the things for people, uh, which I talk about all the time, we talk about this on Pivot constantly, the lack of regulation in general in tech and in AI in particular. Um, they don't have... I, I, uh, I always like, when I'm in a group of people, I say, "Put, put your hand up how much regulation you think there is in AI," and people go 100, everyone goes 100, and I go, "There's zero."

Mel Robbins 34:06 Zero.

Kara Swisher 34:07 Zero, so-

Mel Robbins 34:07 I'm gonna give you some examples in a minute.

Kara Swisher 34:08 So go ahead.

Mel Robbins 34:08 But I wanna, I wanna unpack this a little bit further-

Kara Swisher 34:10 Sure.

Mel Robbins 34:10 ... because one of the reasons why-

Kara Swisher 34:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:12 ... AI is an incomplete solution-

Kara Swisher 34:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:15 ... for a very big problem that we have-

Kara Swisher 34:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:17 ... in society. So let's just all agree that we are at a moment in time where people getting support for mental health issues, and when I use the word mental health, I'm not just talking about people struggling.

Kara Swisher 34:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:29 Mental health includes learning how to be happy-

Kara Swisher 34:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:31 ... learning how to manage your stress-

Kara Swisher 34:32 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:32 ... learning how to be more resilient, learning how to have better relationships.

Kara Swisher 34:35 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:35 And so it's a positive thing.

Kara Swisher 34:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:38 And people are looking for help with it, which is a positive thing.

Kara Swisher 34:42 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:43 Now, here's wh- how I want everybody to think about AI. AI, I think about it like autocorrect.

Kara Swisher 34:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:48 You know how you, like, are typing-

Kara Swisher 34:50 Yes.

Mel Robbins 34:50 ... and then it tries, and you're like, "Well that's not what I wanted to say."

Kara Swisher 34:51 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:52 AI is filling in the blank, guessing based on the information you're feeding it-

Kara Swisher 34:57 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:57 ... and the information that's out there.

Kara Swisher 34:59 Right.

Mel Robbins 34:59 And the problem when it comes to therapy, and, you know, there's some really, really good research on this. There was a study that was done at Stanford that I have in front of me. This is the Stanford Institute for Human- Centered AI, where they first looked at-

Kara Swisher 35:13 Great place, by the way, for people.

Mel Robbins 35:14 Yeah, where they first looked at what does it, what does it mean to be a great human therapist?

Kara Swisher 35:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:19 You gotta be able to treat p- patients equally, you gotta show empathy, not stigmatize mental health concerns, not enable suicidal thoughts or delusions, and challenge a patient's thinking. Here's the problem with AI. AI tends to feed you validation.

Kara Swisher 35:33 Uh, yes.

Mel Robbins 35:34 And it gives you answers, not options.

Kara Swisher 35:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:37 And based on the prompts that people give, it's only searching the language-

Kara Swisher 35:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:41 ... but it's taking no other cues like emotion, tone of voice, stress levels and responses-

Kara Swisher 35:46 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:46 ... that you can see, past history.

Kara Swisher 35:49 Right.

Mel Robbins 35:49 Unless somebody actually gives you that, it's not taking any of that-

Kara Swisher 35:52 Right. Right.

Mel Robbins 35:52 ... into consideration. And so I want to talk about something that's positive before we kind of jump into-

Kara Swisher 35:59 Sure.

Mel Robbins 35:59 ... the fact that what's needed here is regulation.

Kara Swisher 36:01 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:01 There was a study from my alma mater, Dartmouth, okay-

Kara Swisher 36:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:04 ... that came out literally just a couple months ago.

Kara Swisher 36:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:06 It was published in March, and Dartmouth researchers conducted the first-ever clinical trial-

Kara Swisher 36:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:11 ... of generative AI-powered therapy.

Kara Swisher 36:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:13 And they found, and this is important, that people that were diagnosed with depression experienced a 51% percent average reduction in symptoms-

Kara Swisher 36:22 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:23 ... using generative AI in a therapeutic model.

Kara Swisher 36:26 All right.

Mel Robbins 36:27 Okay. So cl-

Kara Swisher 36:28 It works.

Mel Robbins 36:28 ... leading to clinically significant improvements-

Kara Swisher 36:31 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:31 ... in mood and overall well-being. If you had generalized anxiety, it reported an average reduction in symptoms of 31%.

Kara Swisher 36:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:38 However-Here's the thing that they said. The problem is-

Kara Swisher 36:42 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:43 ... it's okay if it is supervised by a human being.

Kara Swisher 36:49 When it's not?

Mel Robbins 36:50 When it's not, AI is fundamentally not able to work autonomously.

Kara Swisher 36:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:56 And the problem is, without regulation, and again, let's applaud the State of Illinois-

Kara Swisher 37:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:02 ... for caring more about the people rather than the unmitigated profits that companies-

Kara Swisher 37:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:06 ... that are using AI are allowed to create.

Kara Swisher 37:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:10 That without any kind of regulations, companies are not gonna do this, period.

Kara Swisher 37:15 No, of course not.

Mel Robbins 37:15 Of course not.

Kara Swisher 37:16 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:16 Uh, we, like, why would-

Kara Swisher 37:17 They didn't fix social media.

Mel Robbins 37:18 No.

Kara Swisher 37:18 They didn't put safety in place.

Mel Robbins 37:19 No, no, no. Not only did they not fix it-

Kara Swisher 37:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:22 ... but when they saw-

Kara Swisher 37:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:24 ... that it was damaging kids-

Kara Swisher 37:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:26 ... mental health, they doubled down on the algorithms.

Kara Swisher 37:29 Absolutely. Right.

Mel Robbins 37:29 So we've seen this with big tobacco. We've seen this with social media. Let's not be idiots, okay?

Kara Swisher 37:35 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:35 Let's let them give us the platitudes and the, the, like, empty promises-

Kara Swisher 37:40 "We're here to solve cancer. We're here to-"

Mel Robbins 37:41 Yeah, yeah, whatever, okay. You know, you're here to make profits because you're a public company.

Kara Swisher 37:44 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:44 And you now don't have to regulate or report to anybody.

Kara Swisher 37:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:48 And so, w- let me, this is the part where we have to go, "No, no, no, we've gotta pressure the people that are paying attention in states where they are."

Kara Swisher 37:55 So what guardrails would you like to see in place then?

Mel Robbins 37:57 Oh, I want, I wanna see, I wanna see tremendous regulation.

Kara Swisher 38:01 You see that as... Uh, the money they have is-

Mel Robbins 38:04 It has to be.

Kara Swisher 38:04 The money they bring to bear is massive. They're standing next to Trump on the podium. They're-

Mel Robbins 38:08 There has to be r- like, uh, you're, you're the kind of per-

Kara Swisher 38:10 All right, give me an example of a guardrail.

Mel Robbins 38:12 Well, a guardrail, uh, a very good one is what happened in, in Illinois.

Kara Swisher 38:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 38:15 That's a very good one.

Kara Swisher 38:16 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 38:16 Because you're now putting a stake in the ground and saying, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa."

Kara Swisher 38:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 38:20 Like, people matter, and we can't just put something out here that isn't actually helping people-

Kara Swisher 38:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 38:28 ... and being, and that has oversight.

Kara Swisher 38:30 Right.

Mel Robbins 38:30 Like, this is why we have consumer safety laws.

Kara Swisher 38:32 Correct. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:33 And yet, they don't seem to apply to something that is not being regulated.

Kara Swisher 38:37 It would apply to a cigarette. It would apply to chemicals.

Mel Robbins 38:39 Of course.

Kara Swisher 38:39 It would apply to, uh-

Mel Robbins 38:40 Why, because people matter.

Kara Swisher 38:41 Right.

Mel Robbins 38:42 People matter more than the profits of a company.

Kara Swisher 38:44 So-

Mel Robbins 38:44 At least they used to. And so, so I wanna say that there's-

Kara Swisher 38:47 Sure.

Mel Robbins 38:47 ... something very promising, but what they concluded in the study at Dartmouth is that while the results are promising, no generative AI agent is ready to f- operate fully autonomously in mental health, because there is such a very wide range of high-risk scenarios that can occ- occor- occur. And so here's another example. I would love to have an X-ray done-

Kara Swisher 39:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 39:08 ... and have it, like, scanned by AI, but I want-

Kara Swisher 39:11 A doctor to-

Mel Robbins 39:12 ... a doctor to look at it after the AI gives you its solutions.

Kara Swisher 39:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 39:18 That's it.

Kara Swisher 39:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 39:19 Because one of the things that also can happen is, like, AI is fantastic for administrative tasks-

Kara Swisher 39:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 39:24 ... for other things, for communicating with people, but when you allow it to operate autonomously-

Kara Swisher 39:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 39:29 ... now we get into massively dangerous situations.

Kara Swisher 39:32 And it also tries to be pleasing. It tries to, you don't know what it's gonna answer. It, it, it's not really-

Mel Robbins 39:37 Well, 'cause here's the other thing that-

Kara Swisher 39:37 It's not user generated, but it is at the same time.

Mel Robbins 39:40 Well, and a lot of times, the answers are wrong.

Kara Swisher 39:42 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 39:43 Like, uh, the other day, uh, you, if you did a search on me, you would see that I drive a Lamborghini, and I'm divorced, and that I'm, uh, also-

Kara Swisher 39:49 Hmm. How's that going for you?

Mel Robbins 39:49 ... I've, I've converted to Islam.

Kara Swisher 39:50 Do... How's that going for you?

Mel Robbins 39:51 Well, uh, li- none of it's true.

Kara Swisher 39:53 I understand (laughs) .

Mel Robbins 39:53 But, but that's what people also don't understand.

Kara Swisher 39:56 Not the Lamborghini?

Mel Robbins 39:56 N- Oh, God, no. Pickup truck.

Kara Swisher 39:58 Okay.

Mel Robbins 39:58 Um, and so, I, I, I, I think it's important because we've also gotten to this point where you go to it and you think that it's right, and what's coming, everybody-

Kara Swisher 40:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:06 ... is advertising.

Kara Swisher 40:07 Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 40:08 And when it goes to-

Kara Swisher 40:10 Or worse.

Mel Robbins 40:10 ... advertising-

Kara Swisher 40:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:11 ... it means that the longer it keeps you on the platform-

Kara Swisher 40:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:16 ... then the more money that people make.

Kara Swisher 40:18 But that's always been. I mean, y-

Mel Robbins 40:19 It's true.

Kara Swisher 40:20 Many years ago, Walt Mossberg-

Mel Robbins 40:20 But not even think. But people don't think about it.

Kara Swisher 40:22 Yeah, but Walt Mossberg, my, uh, my partner for many years, for 20 years, ha- nailed it right from the beginning. He said, he called Mark Zuckerberg a rapacious information thief. Um, and-

Mel Robbins 40:32 (laughs) Well, let's talk about that.

Kara Swisher 40:33 Yes, so we're gonna, uh, I wanna talk about th- the influx, uh, the information influx, uh, about it, um, uh, without overwhelming you. Um, h- how, first of all, how do you, when you, when you use generative AI-

Mel Robbins 40:45 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 40:46 ... or deal with the influx of news-

Mel Robbins 40:48 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 40:48 ... that is, that overwhelms you, some of which is true-

Mel Robbins 40:50 I don't, I don't deal with an influx of news.

Kara Swisher 40:52 You don't. You don't. What do you do?

Mel Robbins 40:52 Well, well, I'll tell you why, because I-

Kara Swisher 40:54 Okay.

Mel Robbins 40:54 ... understanding-

Kara Swisher 40:55 But if you wanna stay informed-

Mel Robbins 40:56 Of course.

Kara Swisher 40:56 ... without feeling overwhelmed.

Mel Robbins 40:57 Yeah, of course. So-

Kara Swisher 40:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:58 ... you know, this is a very simple thing.

Kara Swisher 41:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 41:00 Like, think about input versus output.

Kara Swisher 41:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 41:03 And what are you allowing into your mind?

Kara Swisher 41:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 41:07 That, that, it's, it's that simple. Do you trust the voices-

Kara Swisher 41:11 Like food, you're talking about? Like-

Mel Robbins 41:11 It's just, uh, well, I, I'm talking about information.

Kara Swisher 41:13 Right, but it's like food, like-

Mel Robbins 41:14 Just like food.

Kara Swisher 41:15 ... twinkie, twinkie, twinkie.

Mel Robbins 41:16 Yes. So are you alla- if, garbage in, garbage out.

Kara Swisher 41:19 Mm-hmm, which is a computer term.

Mel Robbins 41:20 Yes. And so, if you are serious about your stress and your peace and your success in life and your health-

Kara Swisher 41:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 41:29 ... you will get very serious about what you allow into your mind.

Kara Swisher 41:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 41:33 You have control, a lot more control than you believe about-

Kara Swisher 41:36 Though some might argue some of it's addictive, but go ahead. Go ahead.

Mel Robbins 41:39 Yeah, it is.

Kara Swisher 41:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 41:41 It is, absolutely. So you know, cocaine's addictive. I don't sleep next to an eight ball.

Kara Swisher 41:45 (laughs) You don't? Not in your Lamborghini?

Mel Robbins 41:49 No. No. No.

Kara Swisher 41:50 Okay. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 41:50 And I, I, I'm kind of, you know, I'm, I'm being, like, punchy about this, but like, stop blaming the phone.

Kara Swisher 41:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 41:57 And actually recognize that the phone is a tool. What's on it is addictive.

Kara Swisher 42:01 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:01 But if you know it's addictive-

Kara Swisher 42:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:03 ... then-

Kara Swisher 42:04 Remove.

Mel Robbins 42:04 ... adjust your behavior-

Kara Swisher 42:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:06 ... so that you don't become the tool.

Kara Swisher 42:08 Right. So, so when you, w- w- do, do, what, how do you, how do you stay informed though, and not check out? Because one of the things is just being completely passive.

Mel Robbins 42:17 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 42:17 Um, especially, uh, and the fact that doomscrolling is rather enjoyable in some fashion.

Mel Robbins 42:22 Well, that's why we do it, yeah. And, and, and, you know, what's interesting about doomscrolling-

Kara Swisher 42:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:26 ... is it actually, you know, the research is very interesting around this, is that it is a lot like pulling a slot machine.

Kara Swisher 42:32 Mm-hmm, very much so.

Mel Robbins 42:32 There's a very, like, kind of seductive, trance-like thing-

Kara Swisher 42:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:37 ... of just pulling that slot machine.

Kara Swisher 42:39 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:39 And that's also why we do it.

Kara Swisher 42:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:42 Another reason why we do it is because all day long, we feel like our time and energy has been hijacked-

Kara Swisher 42:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:47 ... by work, by other people's drama, by the stress of life, by the headlines, that when you get home and you plop on the couch, there's almost like this fuck you experience that you have, and you're like, "I'm just gonna take back my life by, by-"

Kara Swisher 42:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:58 "... spending three hours doing nothing."

Kara Swisher 42:59 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:00 We all do it.

Kara Swisher 43:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:01 And so, understanding that, and that you're gonna fall into that trap every once in a while, which by the way, when you're also stressed-

Kara Swisher 43:06 Mm-hmm. You tend to do.

Mel Robbins 43:08 Oh, way more.

Kara Swisher 43:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:09 The research is very clear-

Kara Swisher 43:10 Lots of dopamine.

Mel Robbins 43:11 ... that when you're very stressed out, or even remotely stressed out, that you are way more susceptible-

Kara Swisher 43:16 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:16 ... to these cheap dopamine hits.

Kara Swisher 43:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:18 And yes, the phone, not the phone itself, but the stuff on the phone-

Kara Swisher 43:22 On the phone. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:23 ... is designed to keep you on it, because the longer that you give your attention to it-

Kara Swisher 43:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:28 ... the more money people make.

Kara Swisher 43:30 And the more it gives you things you ... Tristan Harris-

Mel Robbins 43:32 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 43:33 ... just talked about this for a long time.

Mel Robbins 43:33 Yeah. But, so the thing I wanna just say though is you have more power than you think.

Kara Swisher 43:38 So, give people practices 'cause they don't think they do.

Mel Robbins 43:40 They ... Okay.

Kara Swisher 43:40 'Cause there is ... The element of addiction is massive here-

Mel Robbins 43:43 Absolutely.

Kara Swisher 43:43 ... much more.

Mel Robbins 43:43 Yes.

Kara Swisher 43:44 And, and one of the things I always say is, one, it's addictive. Two, you need it for work.

Mel Robbins 43:48 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 43:48 And you need it for social-

Mel Robbins 43:49 But stop blaming work for the reason why it's-

Kara Swisher 43:50 I get it, but it's hard not to be digital.

Mel Robbins 43:53 ... always in your hand.

Kara Swisher 43:53 It's impossible to, to be in the modern-

Mel Robbins 43:54 Well, I'm not saying don't be a monk and live in the mountains.

Kara Swisher 43:56 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 43:56 What I'm saying is develop some fucking boundaries.

Kara Swisher 43:59 Mm-hmm. So talk about that.

Mel Robbins 44:00 Okay. Here's, here's a great way to start.

Kara Swisher 44:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:02 The next time you're standing in line-

Kara Swisher 44:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:04 ... don't reach for your phone.

Kara Swisher 44:05 Mm-hmm. Difficult.

Mel Robbins 44:06 Yeah. Don't reach for your ph- y- three lousy minutes-

Kara Swisher 44:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:11 ... don't reach for your phone.

Kara Swisher 44:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:12 Feel the tension. Don't reach for your phone.

Kara Swisher 44:16 Did you see that, there was an article in The Atlantic saying what things we did before the internet.

Mel Robbins 44:20 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 44:20 And someone w- was ... I, I read it and then a lot of people were commenting. They said, "What, what did you do?" I said, "Ev- everything."

Mel Robbins 44:27 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 44:27 We, we did everything. Like, I don't know, but we did.

Mel Robbins 44:31 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 44:31 Like, it was fine.

Mel Robbins 44:32 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 44:32 You know, or wait for the-

Mel Robbins 44:33 But it starts with you. Like, literally stand in line-

Kara Swisher 44:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:37 ... five, four, three, two, and don't, don't reach for your phone.

Kara Swisher 44:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:39 And as people start pissing you off, let them.

Kara Swisher 44:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:41 And let me just stand here and take a deep breath-

Kara Swisher 44:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:43 ... and just be in this moment.

Kara Swisher 44:45 Boredom-

Mel Robbins 44:46 And that's-

Kara Swisher 44:46 ... is what you're talking about.

Mel Robbins 44:47 Or presence.

Kara Swisher 44:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:49 Like, presence. And just create a pocket between you and this lie you're telling yourself-

Kara Swisher 44:57 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:57 ... that you need to be constantly attached to everything.

Kara Swisher 45:01 No music? No ...

Mel Robbins 45:02 Why? Like, if you're ... Fine, if you wanna listen to music.

Kara Swisher 45:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:06 But I just ... Fine, if you're listening to a podcast.

Kara Swisher 45:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:08 But if you're reflexively, mindlessly-

Kara Swisher 45:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:12 ... reaching for your phone-

Kara Swisher 45:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:13 ... train yourself not to. Here's another one. Another one, uh, to do is when I am done working, this has changed my life, 'cause I used to be guilty of, I'd, you know, I'd come downstairs. You have four kids. I have three kids.

Kara Swisher 45:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:26 I would literally be on my phone for work or on my la- and then I would shut it down, and now I'm ready.

Kara Swisher 45:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:30 And then everybody else is on their phones, and now I'm yelling at everybody else to get off their phones.

Kara Swisher 45:33 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 45:35 Um, it starts with you.

Kara Swisher 45:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:36 I ... This is the dumbest thing.

Kara Swisher 45:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:38 And again, this is ... The one criticism, one of the criticisms that I get for my work-

Kara Swisher 45:42 Right.

Mel Robbins 45:42 ... is, "Well, it's so simple." I'm like, "It's not simple to most of us, okay?"

Kara Swisher 45:44 Yes, right.

Mel Robbins 45:45 And so-

Kara Swisher 45:45 Is that how they say it, just like that?

Mel Robbins 45:46 Yeah, kind of like, "Uh." Yeah.

Kara Swisher 45:47 Can you do that again?

Mel Robbins 45:48 "It's so simple." Yes. "Oh, well, Robin's shit is so simple."

Kara Swisher 45:50 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 45:50 I'm like, "Well, only to the intellectuals does it seem simple."

Kara Swisher 45:54 Right.

Mel Robbins 45:54 "To the rest of us idiots, like-"

Kara Swisher 45:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:55 "... this stuff is pretty difficult."

Kara Swisher 45:57 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 45:57 But I set up a charging station in the kitchen. This is the dumbest thing.

Kara Swisher 46:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:02 I started to realize that in moments I wanna be in person, I have to have my phone off my person.

Kara Swisher 46:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:07 And I started to train myself to put my phone off my body-

Kara Swisher 46:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:11 ... when I was coming downstairs and it's time for dinner or whatever.

Kara Swisher 46:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:15 And I ha- it has changed my life.

Kara Swisher 46:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:17 Because I reflexively reach for it-

Kara Swisher 46:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:21 ... without realizing it-

Kara Swisher 46:22 Sure, 'cause it's a

Narrator 46:23 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 46:23 ... when it's on me.

Kara Swisher 46:24 Right.

Mel Robbins 46:24 And when it's off you and you start to train yourself. Again, it goes back to that line in the-

Kara Swisher 46:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:29 ... grocery store-

Kara Swisher 46:30 Right.

Mel Robbins 46:30 ... where you literally just build this little pocket of peace and presence.

Kara Swisher 46:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:34 Now, you're building, you're taking that pocket and you're putting that pocket of peace and presence into your life in your home.

Kara Swisher 46:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:40 And what's super cool is there's a lot of research about this. I think it's the University of California, uh, San Francisco and the University of Vienna, uh, did these studies about the parental phone use and its impact on kids.

Kara Swisher 46:53 Completely. That's the problem.

Mel Robbins 46:54 Yes.

Kara Swisher 46:55 Because everyone's-

Mel Robbins 46:56 Yes.

Kara Swisher 46:56 ... got the problem.

Mel Robbins 46:56 Well, the more you're on your phone, the more your kids are.

Kara Swisher 47:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:03 And the more you feel that your kids' behavior is out of control, guess what?

Kara Swisher 47:07 The more yours is. 100%.

Mel Robbins 47:08 Correct. And-

Kara Swisher 47:08 I always think the people 30 to 50 are the problem in this whole-

Mel Robbins 47:11 But here's the good news. The good news is it also starts with you because the more you have balance-

Kara Swisher 47:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:17 ... and boundaries-

Kara Swisher 47:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:19 ... and the more present you are-

Kara Swisher 47:20 Right.

Mel Robbins 47:21 ... the more your kids become. So another great thing that you can do is we have a rule that if we are sitting down for dinner-

Kara Swisher 47:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:28 ... and I only ... It's only dinner.

Kara Swisher 47:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:30 Not breakfast. Don't do this at breakfast. It will not work.

Kara Swisher 47:32 Mm-mm. Hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:33 At dinner, no phones.

Kara Swisher 47:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:36 Not on your body, not on the table. And it has ... We've been doing this for probably 10 years in our household-

Kara Swisher 47:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:43 ... and it has changed our life. There's a lot of research about even having just one family dinner a week-

Kara Swisher 47:48 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:48 ... and how it just impacts your health and your happiness-

Kara Swisher 47:52 Sure. We never-

Mel Robbins 47:52 ... and your connection.

Kara Swisher 47:53 ... meet almost five days a week.

Mel Robbins 47:54 Yeah. And we play this game, high/low. It's a camp game.

Kara Swisher 47:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:56 What's the high of the day? What's the low of the game?

Kara Swisher 47:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:58 And at first, your kids are like, "Oh, this is stupid game."

Kara Swisher 48:00 Rose and Thorn.

Mel Robbins 48:00 Yeah. Rose and Thorn and Bud.

Kara Swisher 48:02 Yes.

Mel Robbins 48:02 And so you can do those kinds of things. And now what are you doing? You're building a pocket for your family of peace and connection. I also ... Like, the, Dr. Thema Bryant-

Kara Swisher 48:14 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:14 I don't know if you've had her on the-

Kara Swisher 48:15 No. No.

Mel Robbins 48:15 I think she's the current president of the American-

Kara Swisher 48:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:17 ... Psychiatric ass- or Psychology.

Kara Swisher 48:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:19 And she's a professor at Pepperdine.

Kara Swisher 48:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:21 Um, she basically had this statement when I interviewed her on our podcast that was like, "I really want you to question-

Kara Swisher 48:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:29 ... why you think it's relaxing to watch horror or crime-"

Kara Swisher 48:33 Correct. I don't watch it anymore.

Mel Robbins 48:34 "... at night."

Kara Swisher 48:35 No, I don't watch them.

Mel Robbins 48:36 She's like, "That is an indication of trauma."

Kara Swisher 48:38 No, I'm watching Gilded Age. I'm watching Gilded Age.

Mel Robbins 48:39 Yes.

Kara Swisher 48:39 And anything, like, silly-

Mel Robbins 48:41 Yes.

Kara Swisher 48:41 ... is the thing that I will watch. By the way, Hunting Wives, if you wanna have a good-

Mel Robbins 48:44 Hunting Wives? Okay.

Kara Swisher 48:45 Hunting Wives.

Mel Robbins 48:45 I'm gonna, I'm gonna take it. I live in Vermont.

Kara Swisher 48:47 MAGA-

Mel Robbins 48:47 I'm gonna take a look at it.

Kara Swisher 48:48 MAGA Christian Trumpers that suddenly take a turn toward lesbianism. It's fantastic.

Mel Robbins 48:52 Wow.

Kara Swisher 48:52 Um, uh, uh, inexplicably, but it works. It's fantastic. Um, but es- besides from that, um, one of the things ... I interviewed the guy who's created Adolescence, which was this Netflix special, which is a lot less traumatic than I thought-

Mel Robbins 49:06 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 49:06 ... which I thought was inad- 'cause it was so well done. And then the woman who did Social Studies, which was ... She followed kids around. They gave her access to all their social media. And one of the things both of them took away from was the need for r- that, that kids wanted them removed-

Mel Robbins 49:20 Yes.

Kara Swisher 49:20 ... from their lives.

Mel Robbins 49:21 Yes. Well, well-

Kara Swisher 49:22 That the kids were happier without it, which was-

Mel Robbins 49:25 Well, part of the problem, and here's, here's the thing, is that ... So our son, for his senior project in high school, did this big six long- six-month-long research-

Kara Swisher 49:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:33 ... study at his public school for the principal/headmaster person.

Kara Swisher 49:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:37 And-... conclusively, what all the students said is-

Kara Swisher 49:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:41 ... they wish everybody weren't on their phones as much, but the problem is the social pressure.

Kara Swisher 49:45 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:46 And, you know, here's another, like, big switch for me as a parent, is that I was super judgy.

Kara Swisher 49:52 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:52 I'm like, "You know what? What, what, w- you guys are all idiots."

Kara Swisher 49:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:55 "You're spending all this time online-"

Kara Swisher 49:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:56 "... doing dumb stuff on social media." The truth is, like, when you see the phone with your kids, I want you to see their two closest friends.

Kara Swisher 50:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:03 Because that's what it represents to them. And there's a tremendous amount of social pressure that I-

Kara Swisher 50:07 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 50:07 ... didn't understand that our-

Kara Swisher 50:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:08 ... kids are under. And again, because I was like Ms. Change-

Kara Swisher 50:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:11 ... and Control until I was like, "Okay, let me be with you."

Kara Swisher 50:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:15 "How do you feel about your phone use? What are you actually using it for? Why, why do you feel the need-"

Kara Swisher 50:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:19 "... to sleep with this thing?" Which I don't-

Kara Swisher 50:21 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 50:21 ... allow in our house.

Kara Swisher 50:22 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:22 And that is another boundary-

Kara Swisher 50:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:24 ... by the way, is do not sleep with your phone.

Kara Swisher 50:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:26 Massive study came out bi- uh, from, I think it's U- I ca- I can't re- oh, oh, no. University of Southern Florida. Recent study, uh, looking at 11 to 13-year-olds.

Kara Swisher 50:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:35 They did find positives-

Kara Swisher 50:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:37 ... around phone and the ability to connect with friends because from a-

Kara Swisher 50:42 Sure.

Mel Robbins 50:42 ... you know, social standpoint-

Kara Swisher 50:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:43 ... and a biological standpoint, that's the age where you start to-

Kara Swisher 50:48 Where you want to. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:48 ... separate and you want to. One out of four 11 to 13-year-olds are sleeping with the phone in their hand.

Kara Swisher 50:53 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 50:54 It is the single most damaging-

Kara Swisher 50:57 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:58 ... thing that a child could do because of the disruption to sleep-

Kara Swisher 51:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 51:03 ... and the cascading effect that the disruption of sleep has on learning.

Kara Swisher 51:06 On everything.

Mel Robbins 51:07 On everything.

Kara Swisher 51:08 Yep.

Mel Robbins 51:09 And I completely had a menopause moment-

Kara Swisher 51:11 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 51:11 ... and forgot where I was going with this.

Kara Swisher 51:12 That's okay.

Mel Robbins 51:12 But, um-

Kara Swisher 51:12 I like it. I, it's fine. It's good.

Mel Robbins 51:14 Oh, oh, so Oak- so, so our son, Oakley, did this-

Kara Swisher 51:16 Is that your next book, Menopause Moment?

Mel Robbins 51:17 No, I'm not, I don't know-

Kara Swisher 51:18 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 51:18 ... if I'll write another book. Because-

Kara Swisher 51:20 Really?

Mel Robbins 51:20 Yeah, yeah. Because when you have something this, like... This is an unprecedented-

Kara Swisher 51:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 51:29 ... moment. First of all, I'm so excited that people are excited about a book.

Kara Swisher 51:32 You're not doing the sequel, Let Them Eat Cake or anything like that?

Mel Robbins 51:34 No.

Kara Swisher 51:34 No?

Mel Robbins 51:34 No. Um, uh, because, you know, I'm excited people are, are interested in reading.

Kara Swisher 51:40 No, you should do a book called Eat Cake and then put-

Mel Robbins 51:42 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 51:42 ... them right next to each other. (laughs) Eat cake. I'm telling you.

Mel Robbins 51:46 No. I, no, I'm not doing it.

Kara Swisher 51:47 Talk, talk about being joyful things.

Mel Robbins 51:47 You wanna know why? I, I know-

Kara Swisher 51:49 Eat cake.

Mel Robbins 51:49 ... the paradox of choice, dude.

Kara Swisher 51:50 Okay.

Mel Robbins 51:50 I understand. I know all that research where you overwhelm people with choices. Nope, I'm not, that's a cute idea. I'm not doing it. I'm not, I'm not gonna fall for, like, the temptation-

Kara Swisher 51:57 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 51:58 ... to do more. Um, I, I know that, like, you-

Kara Swisher 52:02 You said your piece.

Mel Robbins 52:03 I said my piece.

Kara Swisher 52:04 You said your piece.

Mel Robbins 52:04 Yeah, I, I feel like, I feel like this is my legacy.

Kara Swisher 52:07 This is, you said your piece. I, I like that-

Mel Robbins 52:08 Yes.

Kara Swisher 52:08 ... you said your piece. Now you're moving on.

Mel Robbins 52:09 Oh, back to Oakley. So-

Kara Swisher 52:10 Okay.

Mel Robbins 52:10 ... he did this huge project.

Kara Swisher 52:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:12 And basically, conclusively-

Kara Swisher 52:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:15 ... all the students were like, "I'd love to be off this more, but everybody's on it."

Kara Swisher 52:18 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:18 And so, the school ended up adopting a policy where they take the phones at the beginning of class-

Kara Swisher 52:22 Right.

Mel Robbins 52:22 ... and just dump them in a basket.

Kara Swisher 52:23 Right.

Mel Robbins 52:24 Because one of the biggest reasons why it's hard for states to legislate this-

Kara Swisher 52:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:27 ... or school districts to-

Kara Swisher 52:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:28 ... is the parents are pains in the asses.

Kara Swisher 52:29 That's right. They are. That is extensively-

Mel Robbins 52:30 You do not need to be in touch with your children.

Kara Swisher 52:32 You do not.

Mel Robbins 52:32 That is a major problem.

Kara Swisher 52:33 I had a huge argument with a parent about this and I said, "You know what we did before? We went to the office."

Mel Robbins 52:37 Yes.

Kara Swisher 52:38 "And somehow we didn't die."

Mel Robbins 52:39 Yes.

Kara Swisher 52:40 Somehow. And then they brought in school shootings. I'm like, "You need to stop."

Mel Robbins 52:42 Yes.

Kara Swisher 52:42 "You need to stop."

Mel Robbins 52:43 Right now.

Kara Swisher 52:44 Right. They don't need to text you during a school shooting. It doesn't make them-

Mel Robbins 52:46 Well, by the way, if they're in the middle of a school shooting-

Kara Swisher 52:49 They should be running.

Mel Robbins 52:49 ... you want them to be focused on running and hiding.

Kara Swisher 52:51 Not... That's correct. Yeah. All right. We're gonna

Kara Swisher 52:53 take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about, uh, man keeping. Mel, we're back. It's time to talk about man keeping-

Mel Robbins 52:59 Okay.

Kara Swisher 52:59 ... a recent piece in New York Times explores the term coined by postdoctoral fellow at Stanford, An- Angelica Puzio-Ferrara. It refers to a growing emotional burden women feel in relationships 'cause the straight men tend only to open up to their wives or girlfriends. It's driven by a topic we tend to talk a lot about on this show. A 2021 survey from the Survey Center of Americle- of American Life found that 15% of men said they didn't have any close friends. Uh, how would you suggest a woman in a relationship experiencing man keeping, uh... I, I have Scott Galloway who I have to keep. Um... (laughs)

Mel Robbins 53:30 No, let him.

Kara Swisher 53:31 Let him. (laughs) I, oh... That is the code?

Mel Robbins 53:33 We'll, we'll go to this next.

Kara Swisher 53:34 You know why the show's popular? I let him. That is exactly why. So we'll go to the next-

Mel Robbins 53:38 Oh, I don't know. I've seen the comments.

Kara Swisher 53:40 Uh, oh, I don't let him.

Mel Robbins 53:40 Some of your, uh, female listeners are getting tired of it.

Kara Swisher 53:43 Of him. I know that, but then they come up to me-

Mel Robbins 53:45 And they, I know, but people listen to, like, people that irritate them, so.

Kara Swisher 53:47 Yes, that's exactly right, but they do come up to me. They like the struggle. So would... Uh, I don't read comments ever, speaking of which. I never do. I don't know why.

Mel Robbins 53:54 That's smart.

Kara Swisher 53:54 It's just one of my things.

Mel Robbins 53:55 I only do it when I'm preparing to come on a show.

Kara Swisher 53:57 Oh, do you? Okay.

Mel Robbins 53:58 Yes.

Kara Swisher 53:58 So, um, thank you for telling me about it, though. But I'm still gonna not listen to them.

Mel Robbins 54:01 Let them.

Kara Swisher 54:01 Let them. Let them, let them.

Mel Robbins 54:01 Let them complain in the comments.

Kara Swisher 54:02 Let them.

Mel Robbins 54:03 'Cause you know what? You can't control what other people think.

Kara Swisher 54:05 That's right. I, good for you.

Mel Robbins 54:06 Let them.

Kara Swisher 54:06 Yeah. Uh-huh. I have a lot of people do com- like, "How can you put up with them?" I'm like, "Eh, it's none of your business. It's none of your beeswax." Um, so talk about this man keep- how do women in a relationship experience man keeping and talk about the boundaries a- around that, because I think dating has definitely, for some reason, become harder. Um, and what advice do you have for men?

Mel Robbins 54:24 Well, I thought that this was a very interesting article-

Kara Swisher 54:26 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 54:26 ... because it was very polarizing.

Kara Swisher 54:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 54:28 All the women were like, "Finally!"

Kara Swisher 54:30 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 54:30 Like, "Somebody's saying something." And all the guys were like-

Kara Swisher 54:32 That was your different voice.

Mel Robbins 54:33 ... "Uh, excuse me." This is a very broad voice.

Kara Swisher 54:35 Yes. Yes.

Mel Robbins 54:35 You know, like-

Kara Swisher 54:35 Yes.

Mel Robbins 54:36 ... broad brush.

Kara Swisher 54:36 This is reductive. This is-

Mel Robbins 54:37 Yeah. Give me a break.

Kara Swisher 54:38 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 54:38 So again, I'm one of these people that likes to zoom out-

Kara Swisher 54:42 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 54:42 ... and look at the bigger picture.

Kara Swisher 54:43 Sure.

Mel Robbins 54:44 And there is a major issue going on-

Kara Swisher 54:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 54:48 ... when it comes to men and their ability to express and understand their emotions-

Kara Swisher 54:54 Right.

Mel Robbins 54:54 ... and their ability to connect and their ability to ask for help, and you know, interestingly, just next week, we have this episode airing with Jason Wilson, this New York Times best-selling-

Kara Swisher 55:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:02 ... author who does incredible work in Detroit-

Kara Swisher 55:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:05 ... with young men and emotional resilience.

Kara Swisher 55:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:09 He's incredible. And it's, the, the episode's like, the reason why boys and men are quietly struggling-

Kara Swisher 55:14 Right.

Mel Robbins 55:14 ... and how to support them. So let's just take it for a fact that men are struggling.

Kara Swisher 55:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:17 And Jason Wilson's analogy is women tend to have a emotional depth, or at least awareness, that is broader than a- most men.

Kara Swisher 55:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:31 And there's a bazillion factors, whether it is-

Kara Swisher 55:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:34 ... the socialization of boys, whether it is gender stereotypes, whether it is the framework of a lot of male friendships, which I'm gonna get-

Kara Swisher 55:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:41 ... into because I think this tracks back to-

Kara Swisher 55:43 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:43 ... the nature of friendship-

Kara Swisher 55:45 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:45 ... for young boys versus girls, and then what changes when you become an adult.

Kara Swisher 55:49 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:49 But he basically says women, like, have that, like, 64 crayon box that they're dealing with.

Kara Swisher 55:54 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:54 And dudes have, like, the eight.

Kara Swisher 55:56 Right.

Mel Robbins 55:56 And that's an issue, because if you don't know the deeper issue that you're dealing with, you're gonna always reach for anger- Mm-hmm. ... or sadness. Mm-hmm. And typically, if somebody's expressing anger or sadness, there's a lot of other deeper emotions going on- Absolutely. ... that people don't know how to talk about. Mm-hmm. So- Often shame, but go ahead. Yeah, often shame. And, you know, if you don't know the difference between the two, shame- Uh-huh. You know, guilt is when, "I did something bad," and shame is when you say, "I'm bad- Mm-hmm. ... because of what I did." Mm-hmm. And so, blaming men for this doesn't actually solve the bigger problem. Mm-hmm. And I think the bigger problem starts a lot earlier. Like, if you look at all the research around friendship, boys tend to create friendships in groups. Mm-hmm. Girls tend to have closer relationships one-on-one. Mm-hmm. A lot of men tend to make their friends based on teams- Mm-hmm. ... and based on groups that are organized for them. And when they graduate from high school or for college, they end up going to the next team, which is work. Mm-hmm. And now we're in a situation where we have hybrid work. We're in a situation where people are very disconnected. Right. And you have a situation where guys have defaulted to needing groups to be organized in order to feel like you have relationships- Part of something. ... with other people. Yep, yep. It's so interesting. My daughter has individual friends- Uh-huh. ... and my sons have the boys. Yes. Which is really interesting. Yes. Here's the boys. Yes, exactly. And so when you get into a heterosexual relationship- Mm-hmm. ... you are now in a relationship with somebody who is used to connecting one-on-one. Mm-hmm. And so you are probably, in a lot of cases, training this person- Mm-hmm. ... for the first time in some of the deeper nuances of your emotional or inner life. Mm-hmm. And so I don't think it's a bad thing- Mm-hmm. ... that you are, that you might be in a relationship with somebody that leans on you- Right. ... and that needs your support. Right. But I do think it is a bad thing- Right. ... if you are not effective in getting your person- Mm-hmm. ... to be more proactive with friendship and to be more proactive- Outside of the relationship. Oh, hell yes. Mm-hmm. Hell yes. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I, I write about this in The Let Them Theory, and it's a really helpful framework that makes you really think about friendship differently. Mm-hmm. Um,

Mel Robbins 58:02 most of us don't understand friendship. Mm-hmm. And friendship, once I explain this to you, you'll n- you'll, you'll be like, "Oh my God." Like- It's so simple now. Yeah, it's so simple. (laughs) Like, "What the fuck? Why we all know this stuff?" (laughs) So, so for your whole life- Yeah. ... the conditions for friendship from zero to 20 were there, because you were with people your age all the time. Right. And you were doing the same things all the time, and you had the same milestones. Mm-hmm. Celebrated birthdays, graduations, same vacation schedules. Ninth grade. All of it. Right. When you hit 20, all of a sudden, the great scattering- On your own. ... as I call it- Yeah. ... happens. Yeah. And everybody scatters in different directions. And then the only thing that's holding your old friends together is a group text chain that gets, kind of dwindles to less and less and less- Mm-hmm. ... as people start to jump into their lives. Mm-hmm. And then we start to say, "I have no friends." Mm-hmm. Which is not true. Mm-hmm. And so let me tell you the three pillars based on research that need to be present to create friendship. Mm-hmm. And I want people to understand this, because when you see the pillars- Mm-hmm. ... you can support people in your life, whether it's young boys or young men or your partner- Mm-hmm. ... in understanding what it's gonna take to create these relationships that matter. So number one, you have to have proximity. Proximity is the single most important condition for friendship. Mm-hmm. There was research at the University of Kansas that was done about friendship. And I'm gonna probably get the, the facts, or the actual digits wrong, but I'm gonna be in the right range. In order to have a casual friend, you need to spend almost 80 hours with somebody. Mm-hmm. In order to have a super close friend, over 200 hours. Right. And the proximity creates the conditions, so- School- ... you know, like- ... school, whatever. Yes. Like- Other school parents, like- And other school parents, seeing them on the sidelines. Mm-hmm. In class, sitting next to people. At work, you used to have- Mm-hmm. ... a lot of friends at work, right? Because you spent so- Mm-hmm. I did. ... much time with them. So that brings me to the second condition that needs to be present for good friendship to happen, and that is timing. Mm-hmm. So timing means, are we in the same time of our lives? Are we both raising kids? Mm-hmm. Are we around the same age? Are we interested in the same things? Mm-hmm. This explains why you can spend 50 to 60 hours a week with people at work and really love 'em, and they're awesome- Mm-hmm. ... but you're not best friends. Right. Because you may be in your 20s, and so you'll go out and get wasted, and then you're puking in a garbage can on Sunday night. Mm-hmm. And then Monday morning, it's like, "Hey, what'd you do?" "Oh, I went to a soccer game with my kids." Mm-hmm. You're in different timing of life. Of course. So there's only so much depth. Third condition for friendship, energy. Energy is just about whether or not there's a fit or not, and I've come to believe it has a lot more to do about what your priorities are. Mm-hmm. This is why you can be super close friends with people, but if you decide to stop drinking, all of a sudden you're not that close- Right. ... because the energy shifts. Right, right. Now here's the most important thing. The reason why it's important to understand that it's about proximity, it's about timing, and it's about energy, is that when friendships naturally come and go- Mm-hmm. ... it doesn't mean anything's wrong. Right. It's actually good. I agree. This, uh, right. And this, you gotta let them- Yeah. Let them come and go. And the mistake that people make is they start to say, "I have no friends." Mm-hmm. That's not true. Mm-hmm. People come and go in your life, and it's a beautiful thing. And at any moment- Mm-hmm. ... you can decide that friendship is important to you- And make it important. Yes. And, you know, every time in your life that you move, or you go through a divorce, or you have any major job change, you are going to experience a little scattering of friendship. Mm-hmm. Because proximity will change, and so will the timing, and so will energy. Like for example, my husband and I moved to Southern Vermont, um, when we were in our 50s. Mm-hmm. And it was shocking to move to a new place and literally go, "Oh my God, I have no friends here." Right. "I gotta start all over." Mm-hmm. And you feel like that first week in college- Right. ... where it feels like everybody has got their group- Right. ... and you're the only idiot sitting alone, you know- Right. ... in the cafeteria- Yeah. ... and you don't wanna be that cringey person that goes up to other people. Yeah. What did you do? What did I do? Well, first I cried and stayed alone in my house for six months. Oh, wow. And literally was like, "Why can't we, why doesn't anyone say..." Like la- la... I've, like l... You know, this is, this is why I'm so good at giving advice- (laughs) ... because I fuck up my life all the time. Uh-huh. And I find myself in these situations where I'm like, "Okay, well nobody's gonna magically parachute out of the sky and fix my life." Mm-hmm. "No one's coming." Mm-hmm. "I'm either gonna suffer in misery or I'm gonna fucking fix this." Mm-hmm. And again, let's go back to some of the things we talked about. Mm-hmm.... the brain, Dr. K, defaults to what's easy.

Kara Swisher 1:02:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:26 Being miserable and crying is easy.

Kara Swisher 1:02:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:28 And at some point, you'll get to a point where you're like, "It's actually harder to stay in here and sit with myself than to push my ass out the door and to go to that local coffee shop."

Kara Swisher 1:02:38 Yeah. You do have to make- you have to make a thing. When I moved to California from DC, I had a wonderful social life in DC-

Mel Robbins 1:02:42 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 1:02:42 ... friends, everything else, and I moved to California to cover the nascent internet industry. I didn't know anyone, and I w- and I just broke up with someone, too. So it was just like, "Ugh." And I spent a couple of months like crying in a-

Mel Robbins 1:02:52 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:02:52 ... in a- in a rainy San Francisco-

Mel Robbins 1:02:54 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:02:55 ... house. And I remember when spring came, I went, "You know, I'm gonna say yes to everything."

Mel Robbins 1:02:58 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:02:58 "Everything, I'm- even the smallest little thing."

Mel Robbins 1:03:01 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:03:01 And it was- changed everything.

Mel Robbins 1:03:03 Yeah, it does. Like, I started, honest to God, by just going to the coffee shop.

Kara Swisher 1:03:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:07 And then instead of sitting there alone-

Kara Swisher 1:03:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:09 ... I forced myself to start turning and talking to people on a line-

Kara Swisher 1:03:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:13 ... instead of looking at my phone.

Kara Swisher 1:03:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:14 "Hi," you know, go- come here. "Oh, I like your socks." Like, just complimenting somebody is a great way-

Kara Swisher 1:03:19 Yeah. Love-bombing.

Mel Robbins 1:03:19 Yeah, to just strike up a conv- turn and talk to the people next to you.

Kara Swisher 1:03:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:23 Just it's a way to start to come out of your shell and-

Kara Swisher 1:03:26 Actually, longevity depends on talking to strangers. It's really interesting.

Mel Robbins 1:03:29 Yes. Are you gonna talk about the warm, like, connection?

Kara Swisher 1:03:32 Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:03:32 Like the sc- like so here's the thing. We undervalue the foundational importance of what they ca- they call them something like cold relationships-

Kara Swisher 1:03:44 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:44 ... but it's- I- I like to call them warm relationships.

Kara Swisher 1:03:46 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:47 These are the barista at the coffee shop.

Kara Swisher 1:03:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:03:49 This is the person that you see at the dog park.

Kara Swisher 1:03:51 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:52 Stopping and talking to folks, learning their names-

Kara Swisher 1:03:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:55 ... and here's a great hack. So for your favorite coffee shop or the place that you go a lot, your restaurants, whatever, the gym, create a- a contact, uh, listing.

Kara Swisher 1:04:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:04:06 Put in the coffee shop name.

Kara Swisher 1:04:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:04:08 In the notes section-

Kara Swisher 1:04:09 Put their names.

Mel Robbins 1:04:10 ... with a description.

Kara Swisher 1:04:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:04:11 Beard and glasses, makes a great cup of coffee. His name is Kevin. And then you're gonna learn that his dog is Ollie.

Kara Swisher 1:04:16 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:04:16 And then before you go into the coffee shop-

Kara Swisher 1:04:19 You look at it.

Mel Robbins 1:04:19 Yes.

Kara Swisher 1:04:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:04:20 And then you can walk in and you're, "Hey, Kevin, how are you doing? It's Mel." And you start to build this framework-

Kara Swisher 1:04:28 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:04:28 ... that actually matters because you start to feel seen and you start to feel like there is a small community.

Kara Swisher 1:04:35 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:04:35 And from there, you loosen up and start to-

Kara Swisher 1:04:39 And they don't have to be your friend-

Mel Robbins 1:04:40 Absolutely not.

Kara Swisher 1:04:41 ... big friends. No.

Mel Robbins 1:04:41 Absolutely not.

Kara Swisher 1:04:41 And actually, there's so many studies now, I- as I- you know, I told you I'm working on this longevity series. Talking to people you've never m- there's a group called time- Time Spent that puts together six people.

Mel Robbins 1:04:52 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 1:04:52 It's got- it's got 100,000 people across the globe doing this.

Mel Robbins 1:04:56 I love this.

Kara Swisher 1:04:56 You've never met. You meet six people even if they just put you together and you spend the evening with them. And, uh, for every study shows this is like one of the go- everyone is like, "What can you about longevity? Should you, you know, do shrimp semen? You should do this, you should do that." I'm like-

Mel Robbins 1:05:09 (laughs) Shrimp semen?

Kara Swisher 1:05:09 You know what I mean. You know what I mean, like sh-

Mel Robbins 1:05:11 Well, I- I know, but I'm like, "Ugh."

Kara Swisher 1:05:12 It's good for your skin. It's good for your skin.

Mel Robbins 1:05:12 Like I'm digging the vein out of the back of that thing before I eat it. Shrimp semen?

Kara Swisher 1:05:16 Apparently. Um, anyway.

Mel Robbins 1:05:18 Oh, God.

Kara Swisher 1:05:18 That said, the biggest hit- thing is community and meeting people you don't know-

Mel Robbins 1:05:23 Yes.

Kara Swisher 1:05:23 ... and establishing it's fascinating, like actual-

Mel Robbins 1:05:25 Well, you know-

Kara Swisher 1:05:26 ... links to longevity with that.

Mel Robbins 1:05:28 Of course. Like, it's not-

Kara Swisher 1:05:29 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:05:29 Like in life.

Kara Swisher 1:05:30 Mm-hmm. Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:05:31 It's not about the destination or the journey.

Kara Swisher 1:05:34 Right. Right.

Mel Robbins 1:05:34 It's about the company.

Kara Swisher 1:05:35 Oh, I k- knew you were gonna say that. Um, so one personal question. How do I learn to let Scott?

Mel Robbins 1:05:40 Do you have to?

Kara Swisher 1:05:41 No.

Mel Robbins 1:05:41 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:05:42 I'm just kidding. Um-

Mel Robbins 1:05:43 Apparently not according to the comments.

Kara Swisher 1:05:45 ... what is it- what is it about Scott that you need to learn to accept? No, I don't. I do let him. I actually, interestingly enough, it's the first relationship... Often, with men like Scott, sometimes when they were sort of narcissistic or pushed- pushed on things, I would try to stop them. And I think Scott's been the greatest, uh, um, success because I do let him.

Mel Robbins 1:06:02 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 1:06:02 Like, and I think it gives people permission not to fight-

Mel Robbins 1:06:04 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 1:06:04 ... with people so much-

Mel Robbins 1:06:05 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 1:06:06 ... to be able to disagree-

Mel Robbins 1:06:07 Yes.

Kara Swisher 1:06:07 ... and be okay with it and still be-

Mel Robbins 1:06:09 Yes.

Kara Swisher 1:06:09 Not just be civil, but be friends with people-

Mel Robbins 1:06:11 Yes.

Kara Swisher 1:06:11 ... you disagree with. And it gives people permission to laugh a little bit