Colbert Canceled: Is Late Night TV Over? | Pivot

Scott Galloway 0:00 This isn't the end of The Colbert Show, Kara. This is the end of late night television.

Kara Swisher 0:06 (instrumental music) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:13 And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher 0:15 We got a lot to get to today, including Trump suing Rupert Murdoch and CBS canceling Colbert. I know you have a lot of thoughts on this. But, uh, it's really hard not

Kara Swisher 0:23 to talk about the Coldplay situation, the cold playing of it all. The CEO of data ops platform Astronomer, I don't know why it was called Astronomer, Andy Byron has resigned after being caught on camera at a Coldplay concert having an intimate moment with the company's head of HR. You literally cannot make this up. "We had our own steamy date at Coldplay, caught on camera, which people can see on our socials." As listeners pointed out, of course, "You're the small spoon, Scott." Another commenter said, "I would let Kara swaddle the fuck out of me." One more, someone said, "Scott would be an awful head of HR. He would have to call himself to his office on a daily basis for the latest inappropriate joke." I mean, what do you think of this thing? This was, this is a phenomena, menomena.

Scott Galloway 1:05 Well, first off, I mean, distinct of all the humor and the-

Kara Swisher 1:08 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:09 ... uh, uh, the reality is-

Kara Swisher 1:10 It's good humor. Good humor.

Scott Galloway 1:11 ... the reality is a mother who trusted this guy, who thought she'd found the love of her life-

Kara Swisher 1:15 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:15 ... and was raising children with someone-

Kara Swisher 1:17 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:17 ... found out in the worst way possible-

Kara Swisher 1:20 The worst.

Scott Galloway 1:20 ... that he's a fan of Coldplay.

Kara Swisher 1:22 (laughs) I knew that-

Scott Galloway 1:24 Aah.

Kara Swisher 1:24 I knew. I was like-

Scott Galloway 1:25 Aah.

Kara Swisher 1:25 ... "Where is he going?" 'Cause he could care less.

Scott Galloway 1:28 Aah. Look, I-

Kara Swisher 1:29 Anyway. Coldplay was a little bit embarrassing. I have to say, I would agree. I would agree.

Scott Galloway 1:33 Whatever. He works for Astronomer. He, he was studying Uranus. Um...

Kara Swisher 1:37 Oh.

Scott Galloway 1:38 Oh, no.

Kara Swisher 1:38 Oh, how long did you wait for that one?

Scott Galloway 1:40 No, no.

Kara Swisher 1:40 How long?

Scott Galloway 1:41 Okay, I'll be serious.

Kara Swisher 1:42 Did you s-

Scott Galloway 1:42 I'll be serious for a question. I always go... I think it reflects something kind of weird about our society.

Kara Swisher 1:46 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:46 Shaming, I think a lot about shaming-

Kara Swisher 1:48 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:48 ... because I think a lot about depression.

Kara Swisher 1:50 Yep.

Scott Galloway 1:51 And what triggers you. And the reality is, shaming is an important part of our society.

Kara Swisher 1:54 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:54 And that is, to be shamed is meant to restore the social fabric. You are not supposed to beat up children in your tribe and if you do, you are shamed. And there's a good reason for it. It's meant to create cohesion and a more civil, uh, you know, civil community and species. The problem is now we have industrialized shame, and we use it for entertainment. And, in my opinion, a lot of what was meant to be, shaming was meant to restore fabric. It's cutting out our fabric now. And that is, there's just too much economic incentive to shame people. Also, on a more meta level, I find there's an industrial shaming complex, is essentially a form of mini revolution, because essentially you're always, they're always shaming rich white people 'cause people are so pissed off that CEOs are now making 300 times the average salary, not 30. And let me just go to a very tactical level here. We deal with this all the time on boards because men will mistake kindness for sexual interest, and women mistake, uh, sexual interest for kindness. There is always a mismatch instinctively. Men, when they get to a certain level, start believing that that woman is interested in me. And this is, you know, reportedly what-

Kara Swisher 3:07 Well, she seemed interested in him, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 3:09 Right. It, uh, and it happens, and a lot of times it's consensual.

Kara Swisher 3:12 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 3:12 But the approach, and I think this is the right one, that a bunch of the boards I've been on, is that below a certain level, it, uh, consensual relationships of which are 99% of work, one in three relationships begin at work, are a wonderful thing. Eight, uh, there's been eight marriages in my companies. I think it's a wonderful thing. Above a certain level, executive level, and you have to, in my opinion, you need to predetermine it, your fly is up and locked. This guy, in my opinion, was guilty the moment that happened, because when you get to a certain level of power, people will s- will start treating you differently, and you create a power asymmetry which usually men are more predisposed to abusing. And it creates too much risk for the organization. Let's be honest. He didn't resign. He was fired. The board, the board m- immediately met, had a conversation, said he's out, and then he got that call saying, "We think it's, we're gonna make a change. It's, we think it's best if you resign," and he agreed.

Kara Swisher 4:05 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 4:05 And not only that, the head of HR? What the fuck was she thinking?

Kara Swisher 4:08 I know. That's, uh, that's, uh, that, uh, you know, uh, that happens a lot in these companies, trust me in covering them. But it's always someone like that. But what, uh, I mean, uh, in case of one big tech company, the, the, the chief counsel had a baby with someone at the company.

Scott Galloway 4:22 Yeah, Google.

Kara Swisher 4:23 Um, yeah, this would be it. Um-

Scott Galloway 4:24 (laughs) You mean Tind- Tinder, which was the tech community for the-

Kara Swisher 4:27 Yeah. Uh, they do that all the time. One time a friend of, uh, a friend of mine who was working, got a job I think at, at Facebook at the time, or, or it went to a small company from Facebook or something like that. And I said, "Well, what's your job?" She goes, "My job is the department of stopping people from fucking each other." And I was like, "Oh, okay. Good job." Um, but here's the thing, in this case. Uh, beyond that, and that's the obvious issue here from, from a corporate point of view. One, when you go to concerts now or anywhere, you are, you should have not, no expectations of privacy. With ev- all the cameras, with everything being recorded, and by the way, a kiss cam is sort of the least of the technologies, right? Like kiss cams have been around forever. So have like pranking people, like those T- remember those TV shows where they always, like Candid Camera, like right? This is not a new fresh thing. And sometimes Candid Camera resulted in really terrible things, right? Things like this. Um, so I don't think it's a new and fresh thing. I think what it is is that the ability for it to go viral in the most profound way is really what's different. I don't, I think we've been shaming people for a long time using technology, um, prank phone calls. Again, Candid Camera back in the, in the day, and things like that. So, uh, I, I'm not so sure they should have gone to this concert as a couple, which was problematic at the company, and thought it, thought people might not see them, right? That's, that was sort of the arrogance of it, more than anything. The, the internet did do an amazing job with funny stuff. That was for sure. Like putting Betty and, um-... Veronica together or, or Fred Flintstone and Betty or Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump or Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein, so th- some of those were quite funny.

Scott Galloway 6:12 I think the funniest thing is now, at every sporting venue across the world, when any- anyone ... because Ken goes anywhere, they all dive like they're being found out.

Kara Swisher 6:20 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, that was funny.

Scott Galloway 6:21 I think-

Kara Swisher 6:21 Those were good.

Scott Galloway 6:22 But there's ... L- let me ask you this, and this is one of the things that, uh, always struck me about a certain level of fame. How many people a day would you say recognize you?

Kara Swisher 6:32 Seven to 10 now.

Scott Galloway 6:33 No, that- I'm sorry. Seven to 10 come up to you?

Kara Swisher 6:36 Yeah, so lots of people recognize me, yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:38 Okay.

Kara Swisher 6:38 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:39 So, so-

Kara Swisher 6:39 I'm aware of it.

Scott Galloway 6:41 Okay, this is what that means, and I think about this a lot. If seven ... Supposedly, for every person that comes up to you, 100 people recognize you-

Kara Swisher 6:49 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 6:49 ... and don't come up to you 'cause think about how many people you recognize.

Kara Swisher 6:52 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:53 And you don't ... You, but ... And how many you actually go up to. I recognize, in SoHo, I see people ... I see dozens of people every day, I either know them professionally, but I never go up to someone, or very rarely go up to them, so if you, if seven people are coming up to you, that means that day, 700 people recognized you.

Kara Swisher 7:13 Oh. Okay.

Scott Galloway 7:13 And I think about that-

Kara Swisher 7:15 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 7:15 ... and it freaks me out 'cause what I feel like now is I have a security camera everywhere.

Kara Swisher 7:20 Right.

Scott Galloway 7:20 Wherever I am-

Kara Swisher 7:22 Yep.

Scott Galloway 7:22 And you see it, right? I'll be at a restaurant, and I look over and I see someone looking at me, and I'm like-

Kara Swisher 7:26 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 7:26 ... "That's more than a glancing phase. They're trying to put together-"

Kara Swisher 7:28 That's correct.

Scott Galloway 7:28 "... how they know me."

Kara Swisher 7:29 Right.

Scott Galloway 7:30 And some of it is bad because you feel like you lose a little bit of your anonymity, but I also think it's not a bad thing to just be thinking, "Okay, I need to equip myself well." Because-

Kara Swisher 7:41 Mm-hmm. I do. I act better, I have to say.

Scott Galloway 7:43 Yeah, me too.

Kara Swisher 7:44 Do, do you act better? I was at, getting coffee the other day and-

Scott Galloway 7:46 I think I'm nicer.

Kara Swisher 7:48 I'm nicer. I'm so nice, I'm like, "Do you want a picture? Would you like ..." 'Cause they're sitting there-

Scott Galloway 7:51 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 7:51 ... with their camera, um, and one of the things ... You know, I have ... Uh, we're not, like, really big celebrities, but I think people really do know us 'cause literally, b- especially after the, when your dad died, people really reached out. I was like, I had a lot that week, but, um, I've had two people come up to me in one coffee thing, and I thought, "Other people know who I am here, right?" And so what I do is I behave better. I'm incredibly polite. When I have my kids with me, I'm very nice to my children. (laughs) Like, I don't, like, chastise them. I'm like ... Like sometimes when your kids drive you crazy, you're like, "Will you please sit down?" I don't do that, which is interesting. Um, so I act better.

Scott Galloway 8:30 Yeah, I've stopped hitting my kids.

Kara Swisher 8:31 Oh yeah, stop hitting-

Scott Galloway 8:31 And that's, that's-

Kara Swisher 8:32 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 8:32 I hate that. That's a real bummer.

Kara Swisher 8:34 Oh. No, I, you know, I w- I think nicer. I think I'm nicer in public 'cause I'm aware that, uh, just one picture of me being a Karen or something, I don't want that to happen.

Scott Galloway 8:44 No, it'll go everywhere. I agree, uh-

Kara Swisher 8:45 I'm not usually like that, but that still-

Scott Galloway 8:47 But, but it's so strange what the p- the algorithms and the public pick up on because more people ... More is known about these two people now than, hands down, than the assas- the, the guy who was killed assassinating or trying to assassinate Trump. I mean, it's just weird what we find fascinating.

Kara Swisher 9:04 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:04 These people literally ... You wanna talk about the earth moving beneath your feet?

Kara Swisher 9:09 I know, right.

Scott Galloway 9:09 Can you imagine?

Kara Swisher 9:10 Oh, no.

Scott Galloway 9:10 This is ... For the rest of their life-

Kara Swisher 9:13 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 9:13 ... this is how those people, these people-

Kara Swisher 9:15 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:15 ... what these people are known for. Whenever they move to a new community, they get remarried-

Kara Swisher 9:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:20 ... and they're joining a tennis club, they're-

Kara Swisher 9:21 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:21 ... showing up for a game of double- doubles, and this woman-

Kara Swisher 9:25 It's them.

Scott Galloway 9:25 ... this is like, "Oh, remember that? That's this woman."

Kara Swisher 9:28 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:28 They have just marked their brands for the rest of their lives.

Kara Swisher 9:29 They did do the move, though. I think they did, you know ... They could've done a lot of things, but their move was so dramatic at the same time, like, "We're hiding," and then allowed Chris Martin to say what he said, right? It all came together because they did the duck and cover, and then Chris Martin said they're either having an affair or they're shy, but he first said they're either having ... Uh- uh- uh-oh. Like, he kinda set it up. Like, imagine being him. And who's the camera guy? Like, it's all those kinda things I'm fascinated by. Was it good for PR at all for the company or not?

Scott Galloway 10:00 That's a-

Kara Swisher 10:01 Now we know what it is.

Scott Galloway 10:01 You know what? That's a really interesting question because one of the biggest components of branding now-

Kara Swisher 10:08 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 10:08 ... is just awareness.

Kara Swisher 10:09 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:10 Had you ever heard th- of a firm named Astronomer before this?

Kara Swisher 10:12 I thought it was an astronomy thing. Like, I didn't know it was-

Scott Galloway 10:14 Yeah. No, it's-

Kara Swisher 10:15 ... what it was.

Scott Galloway 10:15 It's some sort of AI thing.

Kara Swisher 10:17 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:17 In a weird way-

Kara Swisher 10:18 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 10:18 ... this, look, this was bad for the two of them. In a weird way, I would argue this is good for shareholders of the company.

Kara Swisher 10:25 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess.

Scott Galloway 10:26 Everybody knows this company now.

Kara Swisher 10:27 It's true. It's true. I think I've met this guy many years ago when he was at Fuse. I think he was at Fuse. I feel like-

Scott Galloway 10:33 Really?

Kara Swisher 10:33 ... I've met him. When I saw him, I'm like ... But he looks like a lot of tech CEOs, like, to me. I was like, "Oh, that guy," essentially.

Scott Galloway 10:39 I don't know ... I know him, I don't know him really well, but he gives great head.

Kara Swisher 10:42 (laughs) Ah.

Scott Galloway 10:43 How did I go there? How did I go there? How did I go there?

Kara Swisher 10:47 All right. Uh, how am I gonna make this transition then?

Scott Galloway 10:49 Whenever ... I know when it's time for me to leave a CEO when we get a CFO or a head of HR, then I'm like, "I'm out."

Kara Swisher 10:55 Oh.

Scott Galloway 10:55 And then the ... But our company gets acquired, right?

Kara Swisher 10:59 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:00 Um, and, of course, there's this new global head of HR. On fucking Friday at 6:00 PM, like, first week after the deal closes, I get a call from the global head saying, "Hi, this is Lisa Whatever, head of Global HR. I need to speak to you urgently."

Kara Swisher 11:15 Oh, no.

Scott Galloway 11:16 I mean, I'm there ... It's been five days, and I'm already in trouble?

Kara Swisher 11:20 What did you do? Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:20 So I call her back-

Kara Swisher 11:22 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:22 ... and start emailing her-

Kara Swisher 11:23 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:23 ... and she doesn't get back to me 'til Monday at 10:00 AM-

Kara Swisher 11:26 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:26 ... which, by the way, is a great weekend.

Kara Swisher 11:28 (laughs) Yeah, it sucks.

Scott Galloway 11:28 That's a great weekend.

Kara Swisher 11:29 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 11:29 When the head of HR calls you-

Kara Swisher 11:31 Oh my God.

Scott Galloway 11:31 ... and says, "Call me immediately."

Kara Swisher 11:32 I hate when people do that in general, "I need to talk to you urgently," but then don't say what.

Scott Galloway 11:35 (laughs) And then you don't talk to them.

Kara Swisher 11:37 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:37 Anyways, so she calls me back, and at this point, the check is cleared so I can be fairly-

Kara Swisher 11:41 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:41 ... forward. And I'm like ... And I said to her, I'm like, "How do you think my weekend was?"

Kara Swisher 11:45 Right. What was it?

Scott Galloway 11:46 "How do you think- "

Kara Swisher 11:46 What was it?

Scott Galloway 11:47 "What do you think my ..."

Kara Swisher 11:48 What was it?

Scott Galloway 11:48 It was very simple. We have these all-hands, and that Monday, we'd had an all-hands, and we always go around and everyone talks about what they're doing, and we introduce the new people, and I say ... I open it up for questions, and one of the, one of the newbies goes, "I'm brand new. I've ... As, uh, what is the ..." He's like, "I'm just curious, what is the vacation policy?"

Kara Swisher 12:05 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 12:06 And I said, "The vacation policy is when you're new, you don't ask what the fucking vacation policy is."

Kara Swisher 12:10 Oh. Wow, good thing they ... (laughs)

Scott Galloway 12:12 (laughs) And, and the whole ... And I'm ... said, "I'm kidding." Uh, you know-

Kara Swisher 12:15 Uh, uh, uh, "Are you?"

Scott Galloway 12:15 ... Lisa, who's your manager, will tell you-

Kara Swisher 12:17 Ugh.

Scott Galloway 12:17 ... what it is.... and she called me and said, "You can't ever discourage people from taking vacation and that's-"

Kara Swisher 12:23 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 12:23 "... what you were doing."

Kara Swisher 12:24 Ah.

Scott Galloway 12:25 And I said, I said, "I understand. By the way, I need to leave Gartner immediately."

Kara Swisher 12:31 Yes. Oh, my God.

Scott Galloway 12:32 If you're calling me on this...

Kara Swisher 12:32 'Cause they can't take a fucking joke. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 12:33 Because you know what I usually do at an all-hands, Kara?

Kara Swisher 12:36 Uh-huh? What?

Scott Galloway 12:36 This is, I usually say, "Look, uh, th- many of you may have realized, I was out for a week, I was in a terrible accident and my inhibition sensors were deeply damaged, so there's gonna be some locker room talk, some inappropriate touching, but I hope you are patient with me on my journey back."

Kara Swisher 12:52 Oh, no. No.

Scott Galloway 12:54 I love that. "My, my inhibition sensors have been damaged."

Kara Swisher 12:57 Oh.

Scott Galloway 12:57 "There's gonna be-"

Kara Swisher 12:58 Your inhibition centers were damaged at birth, Scott Galloway.

Scott Galloway 13:00 "There's gonna be inappropriate touching."

Kara Swisher 13:02 You don't even have the sensors.

Scott Galloway 13:03 "I hope you help me on my journey back."

Kara Swisher 13:05 You have zero sensors. Let me tell you my story. One time, when I was at the New York Times, I had tweeted something about some terrible experience on United, which, by the way, I'm a global services person there now. Um, and, uh, and they, um, uh, someone from the New York Times on the friggin' masthead was like, "We think this looks like you're asking for something from United," which I wasn't. I was just griping, like, my usual gripery. And I was like, "No, I'm not. I don't want it." "Well, they could because we're the New York Times." I said, "Well, I don't work for you, so..." I, uh, they were like, "We'd like you to take it down." And I'm like, "Uh, no." And they're like, "Yeah, but we want you to take it down." I go, "Eh, no." (laughs) And I finally was like, "You are a person on the masthead and you're spending your weekend yelling at me about a tweet of which I refuse to take down 'cause I think what you're saying is ridiculous?" That's- that's why I like being independent. I'm just telling you. This is why.

Scott Galloway 13:52 Well, I- I can, I- I'll- I'll take that and raise you 50.

Kara Swisher 13:54 Okay.

Scott Galloway 13:55 I'm booked to do a TV show for-

Kara Swisher 13:57 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 13:57 ... Bloomberg Television.

Kara Swisher 13:58 Oh, yes.

Scott Galloway 13:58 They're gonna go on original TV.

Kara Swisher 13:59 Classic.

Scott Galloway 14:00 I, and I do these TV shows, it's COVID. We sell out advertising for this thing. We have sh- five shows in the can. The guy in charge, the producer, says, "Can you do some promos?" I'm like, "No problem." Go into my studio, flip on the lights. I do a promo, including one where I'm the construction worker from the guy from the Village People. You can find it, folks, on the internet. Without my shirt, you know, my favorite, um, one-night, um, that I'm a construction worker.

Kara Swisher 14:27 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 14:27 Uh, my, I'm a, and my favorite one-night stand is called The Nut and Bolt.

Kara Swisher 14:31 Yeah. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 14:31 And, uh, (laughs) and I, and then, I just tweet these things out.

Kara Swisher 14:35 You didn't, you didn't check, you didn't check.

Scott Galloway 14:36 I don't ask them for permission, I just tweet them out.

Kara Swisher 14:38 Check.

Scott Galloway 14:38 And I say, "Here comes the show." And the producer calls me back and goes, "We're horrified, but this is exactly what we need."

Kara Swisher 14:46 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 14:46 They liked it.

Kara Swisher 14:47 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 14:47 And then the next day, he calls me and says, basically says, "Houston, we have a problem."

Kara Swisher 14:50 Oh, 'cause someone complained?

Scott Galloway 14:51 And what had just happened is Bloomberg-

Kara Swisher 14:52 Unsafe?

Scott Galloway 14:53 Well, Bloomberg had just had a guy sitting around a round table, inviting interns over when he was in a bathrobe open.

Kara Swisher 14:59 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 14:59 And then they'd had another person groping-

Kara Swisher 15:01 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:01 ... people in the lunchroom or whatever.

Kara Swisher 15:03 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 15:03 So they were very understandably sensitive to anything.

Kara Swisher 15:07 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:07 And some of the journalists found it offensive.

Kara Swisher 15:09 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 15:10 And so he called-

Kara Swisher 15:11 I remember.

Scott Galloway 15:11 He called me. I remember I was at the Beverly Hilton that day. He called me and said, "I need you to do two things. One, I need you to tweet out that we didn't know you were doing this."

Kara Swisher 15:19 Oh, good God.

Scott Galloway 15:20 And I'm like, "No problem, you didn't. I did this on my own."

Kara Swisher 15:23 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 15:23 And he said, "And the second thing is, I need you to apologize." I'm like, "Nope-

Kara Swisher 15:26 No, no.

Scott Galloway 15:26 "... I'm not sorry. I don't-"

Kara Swisher 15:28 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:29 "... I- I don't, I- I don't think this is any way sexist, and if I apologize, it's gonna do me no good and you no good."

Kara Swisher 15:36 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:36 "So, uh, the truth has a nice ring to it, but I'm not apologizing."

Kara Swisher 15:39 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 15:39 And they came back with a list of, they said, "Okay, we can get through this." And they came back with a list of things I couldn't do. And then my favorite was, no sex jokes, no expletives. But for some reason (laughs) , they added in there, "You can never mention Sheryl Sandberg."

Kara Swisher 15:51 What?

Scott Galloway 15:51 I thought that was so weird. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 15:53 What? Was she-

Scott Galloway 15:53 They came back with 12 things. They're like, "We're gonna get through this, but there are these things you can't do."

Kara Swisher 15:58 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 15:58 You c- oh, and oh-

Kara Swisher 15:59 Oh, I didn't know that part.

Scott Galloway 15:59 ... my other one, like number nine was, "You can't reference your erectile dysfunction ever again."

Kara Swisher 16:05 What? Oh, wow.

Scott Galloway 16:05 They came back with 12 random things, but my favorite was-

Kara Swisher 16:07 Oh, my God.

Scott Galloway 16:07 "... you can never mention Sheryl Sandberg. "

Kara Swisher 16:08 Sheryl Sandberg. And your-

Scott Galloway 16:10 And I called them back, true story, and I said, "You know what?" I called my team into a room and I said, "This is what they want us to do, and this is gonna be great for us," and we sold advertising, and I was kinda ready to sign up for it, and the team said, "Fuck it. Let's let our freak flag fly, let's not do it." And I called the guy back and said, this is a true story, I said, "There's not a fit here. Let's fold our tent."

Kara Swisher 16:30 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:30 We did five goddamn shows and they never made-

Kara Swisher 16:32 Five shows, you thought-

Scott Galloway 16:32 ... they never saw the light of day.

Kara Swisher 16:33 Can I just say? Who stuck with you during that time?

Scott Galloway 16:35 You s- that's right.

Kara Swisher 16:36 I did.

Scott Galloway 16:36 You stood by me.

Kara Swisher 16:37 I stood by you.

Scott Galloway 16:38 You stood by your man.

Kara Swisher 16:39 You were so upset. I did. And they were-

Scott Galloway 16:40 You stood by your man.

Kara Swisher 16:40 It was ridiculous. And do I let you do erectile dysfunction? Do I let you reference Sheryl Sandberg?

Scott Galloway 16:44 100%.

Kara Swisher 16:46 Never gonna get

Kara Swisher 16:47 in Scott's jam. Anyway, let's move on, 'cause this is interesting, 'cause we like being independent, and this is why. CBS insists the decision to cancel The Late Show with Stephen Colbert was purely financial and had nothing to do with the other matters happening at Paramount, which is acquiescing Donald Trump and paying him a bribe. Colbert broke the news last week that his show would end next May. This was just days after calling Paramount's, uh, $16 million settlement with Trump a big, fat bribe, which is accurate. Also worth noting, Skydance CEO Della- David Ellison met with Trump-appointed FCC chair Brandon Carr earlier in the week. I'm not sure those things are related, but, because he's in the middle of a merger. The Writers Guild of America is calling for an investigation, calling the cancellation appears to be a bribe to curry favor with the Trump administration to, to s- to pass this merger. Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are also questioning the timing and motivation of the decision without proof. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be pretty fair here, because I- I- I don't know what's going on. W- what do you think is happening? There were reports, uh, which th- we all know about, they acknowledged the financials, ad revenue for Colbert has dropped 40% since 2018. The show had reportedly been losing $40 million a year. I'm not sure I believe those numbers. I think it's not making as much money and they're, the salaries are high and the, and the, and- and late night is declining, no question. Um, I, the other shows, um, obviously Kimmel and, um, Fallon allegedly lose money. I don't know, and I don't know if they're figuring in ancillary things or whatever. They may just be doing a... I don't, I'd like to see the actual numbers myself before they make that claim. Um, Daily Show airs on Comedy Central, which is also owned by Paramount, but the others, Fallon and others, and- and Seth Meyers. Seth Meyers had to get rid of the band, I think, in order to keep going. COVID hit these con- these shows very hard, and so did the...... the, the, the fracturing of the monoculture that we used to have. Now everybody could do this and are, are listened to by more people than the ... I think he had 2.4 million people watching him, um, which is a b- which is a hefty sum. But still, the economics weren't right apparently. Your thoughts?

Scott Galloway 18:53 Well, first off, the Writers Guild Association should announce an investigation about how they could be so fucking stupid as to go on strike for five and a half months from a position of total weakness. But anyways ...

Kara Swisher 19:02 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 19:03 Okay. This is a situation where I immediately thought, "All right. Another example of our slow descent into fascism as the president puts pressure on media, and, uh, attempts to leverage his FTC or DOJ approval, uh, uh, in exchange for getting rid of a critic." I did the research, and I think I'm wrong. I really do think this was a financial decision. If you look at the numbers, 2018 late night TV was 400 million in advertising.

Kara Swisher 19:29 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:30 It's gone to 200 million.

Kara Swisher 19:31 Two and a half, yep.

Scott Galloway 19:32 Uh, supposedly the numbers on this show is-

Kara Swisher 19:35 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 19:35 ... it costs $100 million to produce, and it makes $60 million. It's losing $40 million a year. Do you know how many people work-

Kara Swisher 19:40 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 19:40 ... on Colbert?

Kara Swisher 19:42 A lot.

Scott Galloway 19:42 Do you know how many professionals they have?

Kara Swisher 19:43 A lot.

Scott Galloway 19:44 200.

Kara Swisher 19:45 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:45 So just let me ... I, I never miss an opportunity to pat ourselves on the back, but let's compare the economics of our universe versus theirs. P- Pivot and the Profji universe will do somewhere between $20 and $25 million next year. I would say we have between, let's call it, 15-

Kara Swisher 20:01 At the most.

Scott Galloway 20:02 ... 15 full-time employees. Well, there are some people at Vox on our ads.

Kara Swisher 20:06 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 20:06 I have a bunch of people doing, you know ...

Kara Swisher 20:07 Yeah, you're right. You're right.

Scott Galloway 20:08 Let's call it 15 people. 200 people at $60 million is $300,000 per employee. We're doing one and a half million dollars per employee, and we're growing 20% a year. They're doing $300,000 per employee and shrinking 20% a year. And this is what I think happened, Kara. I think Skydance, and I've been a part of this, when they acquired the company, they said-

Kara Swisher 20:26 They have not yet acquired the company. They, they have ... It's not-

Scott Galloway 20:30 But-

Kara Swisher 20:30 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 20:31 But during diligence-

Kara Swisher 20:32 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 20:33 ... and to, to get the deal closed, part of the conditions on closing are like-

Kara Swisher 20:37 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 20:37 "Look. You've got some problems here, i- including one, one show that is losing $40 million. We don't want to be the bad cops who come in and fire all these people."

Kara Swisher 20:48 Right.

Scott Galloway 20:48 "You need to do it."

Kara Swisher 20:49 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 20:50 And so I think David Ellison-

Kara Swisher 20:51 That's ... I'm guessing. That's what I'm guessing.

Scott Galloway 20:52 David Ellison said-

Kara Swisher 20:53 A long time ago. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 20:54 Yeah, David Ellison said, "Look, and this is, as a function of closing, you want the existing management team to do all the dirty work. You don't wanna show up and be the bad guys."

Kara Swisher 21:04 Yeah, they may say the management team's also, so they wanna curry favor with the new owners presumably. It happened at CNN. Remember David Zaslav cut ... You remember CNN+ Scott?

Scott Galloway 21:13 I do, yes.

Kara Swisher 21:14 When they cut.

Scott Galloway 21:14 Very well. Speaking of more shows that were canceled.

Kara Swisher 21:16 Remember when I didn't sign, and I said, "They're gonna gut it," and you were like, "No they're not." And I was like, "Yes, they are." 'Cause that was another-

Scott Galloway 21:22 It's the lure of television.

Kara Swisher 21:23 Yes, yeah.

Scott Galloway 21:23 The name in bright lights. But I generally think there's ... This isn't the end of The Colbert Show, Kara.

Kara Swisher 21:28 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 21:28 This is the end of late night television.

Kara Swisher 21:30 Right.

Scott Galloway 21:30 Late night television-

Kara Swisher 21:31 He'll be fine I think. I think he'll do well in this medium

Narrator 21:34 in a different environment.

Scott Galloway 21:34 Oh, he's a remarkably talented person.

Kara Swisher 21:36 Remarkably talented.

Scott Galloway 21:37 But this is a shitty business. America used to gather around the TV late ... It was the last thing they did. Now, they don't. And in addition, let's look at the numbers. They ... Four million people were watching pre-COVID, 2.4 million now. And even worse than that, only 10% is in the core demographic. It's all old people. It's only about a quarter of a million people in the 18 to 54, which is the only people that advertisers wanna reach. Do you realize this ... What we're on today will reach as many people in the core demographic as The, as Colbert Show, but he's taking 200 people to do it. So now, what might have happened is, in terms of politically, he probably ... His revenues declined faster than Fallon or Kimmel 'cause he was seen as being especially political. And the reason why Raging Moderates, one of my podcasts, doesn't get the same CPM that we get is there are an increasing number of advertisers who will just not advertise on political shows.

Kara Swisher 22:37 Yep. They won't.

Scott Galloway 22:38 They're like, "Any political show that's too partisan-"

Kara Swisher 22:40 That was always the case. Can I just say? We tried to do a code conference in DC and we couldn't put the numbers together, so we didn't do it, right? 'Cause it was hard.

Scott Galloway 22:48 But I think, I think a lot of people see Colbert as being especially political.

Kara Swisher 22:52 Yes.

Scott Galloway 22:52 And probably there are a number of large advertisers who just say, "Colbert is off limits for us." But this is, this is an indication of a larger trend. When you need 200 people to produce $60 million in revenues, and your, your revenues have been cut in half in the last six years-

Kara Swisher 23:10 And viewership, listenership to half.

Scott Galloway 23:12 ... and you're losing $40 million bucks.

Kara Swisher 23:14 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 23:14 And you're about to get acquired. I bet Ellison said to whoever's in charge-

Kara Swisher 23:19 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 23:19 ... "You gotta deal with this problem."

Kara Swisher 23:20 Clean up your mess. Clean up your mess.

Scott Galloway 23:21 Clean it up.

Kara Swisher 23:22 One of the things that I think is interesting is that they do very well online. So does The Daily Show. But it doesn't, for people who know-

Scott Galloway 23:29 They don't monetize it.

Kara Swisher 23:29 Even though it does ... It does ... You can't monetize it. That's the issue.

Scott Galloway 23:31 That's right.

Kara Swisher 23:32 It's hard. It's not impossible, but they, they're doing it for marketing, not monetization, when someone like Theo Von or, or Rogan is doing it for money, like for real advertising. And so that's the difference there, and the other thing is, what's really interesting is, I think Colbert would do well in podcasting. Look at Sean Hayes and those guys on SmartLess.

Scott Galloway 23:51 Oh, yeah.

Kara Swisher 23:51 Or Amy Poehler's at the top of the podcast game right now.

Scott Galloway 23:55 Killing it.

Kara Swisher 23:55 Killing it. She's probably making a ton of money.

Scott Galloway 23:57 Nicole Wallace's new pod is doing well.

Kara Swisher 23:58 Nicole. Yes. So a lot of these people will find ... And not all of them, but a lot of them will find either podcasting or video podcasting, or I could see Colbert doing a bunch of live shows he'll do really well if he wanted to.

Scott Galloway 24:10 Look at Conan, Conan's huge in podcasting.

Kara Swisher 24:11 Conan's doing well. Like-

Scott Galloway 24:12 Jon Stewart.

Kara Swisher 24:13 Right, right. Well, he hasn't gone off, but I think they have definitely brought down cost 'cause Jon's only on once a week. They have a cast, a small ... You know, a larger cast, but of people who aren't paid as much. That's a way to go. You ... One of the things Scott and I always talk about, you've ... Revenues and costs have got to align, and whether you like it or not-... y- you can't immediately say it's an acquiescence. I think it helps that it, it gives Trump an excuse, and he did, of course, as usual, 'cause he's a crass, hand-bruised person. Um, y- you know, he... of, of... "I'm glad he was fired." I don't think he was fired as much as, "This isn't working as a business." And I don't think there was any feeling that Colbert wasn't funny, wasn't talented. I think they could've done it a different way, in terms of telling him and letting people know. Um, I, I don't necessarily think the, uh, Skydance people knew about it before. I just think they probably indicated what... in the same way that I believe David Zaslav must have indicated to the C- the CNN people, "We're gonna... you better do this." 'Cause J- it was Jason Kilar that cut CNN+, not Zaslav, right? Is that correct? Or something like that. I, I f-... I don't remember. But it was... well, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.

Scott Galloway 25:25 I think it was Zaslav.

Kara Swisher 25:26 It was Zaslav, yeah. They had to cut it.

Scott Galloway 25:27 I... Supposedly, supposedly, Zaslav told them to stand down on CNN+. And-

Kara Swisher 25:32 Yes, they did. He... Well, I knew about it.

Scott Galloway 25:34 ... and, and they said-

Kara Swisher 25:34 That's why I didn't sign.

Scott Galloway 25:35 And they said, "Sorry, it's not... y- you don't control us yet. The deal's not closed."

Kara Swisher 25:39 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 25:39 "We're moving forward with it."

Kara Swisher 25:40 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 25:40 And then he showed up and said, "Bitch, I'm on top," and unplugged it unceremoniously.

Kara Swisher 25:43 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 25:43 As a matter of fact, uh, the night-

Kara Swisher 25:46 That's right.

Scott Galloway 25:46 On a Tuesday night, I talked to our producer, Scott Matthews and Rebecca Cutler, who I love.

Kara Swisher 25:52 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 25:52 And-

Kara Swisher 25:52 Who's at MSNBC now.

Scott Galloway 25:54 Who's an e-... a huge talent and swimming upstream.

Kara Swisher 25:56 (laughs) Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 25:57 Um, um, anyways, but... and Scott said, "This is great news for the number one show."

Kara Swisher 26:02 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 26:02 Granted, I was beating out Jake Tapper's book club. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 26:05 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 26:06 Um, but... so we were the weakest strongman at the circus. And so, I'm like, "Uh, get the team on the phone high-fiving the number one weekly show on CNN+", w- literally, arguably, the weakest flex in the world.

Kara Swisher 26:17 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 26:17 Next morning, I get a text from you. "I'm in San Diego. Are you all right?"

Kara Swisher 26:21 Oh, yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:21 And I'm like, "What the fuck?" And I call you-

Kara Swisher 26:23 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 26:23 ... and I'm like, "What's wrong?" And you go, "Oh, you didn't see?" And you forwarded me the article of CNN+ unplugged.

Kara Swisher 26:27 (laughs) Yeah. Unplugged, yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:29 Anyways.

Kara Swisher 26:29 Yeah. Do you know, I had... didn't sign with them because I had known... I had heard from the new owners that they were cutting it, so, um, off the record. And they had offered me a pretty big contract, and I just declined. I was like, "They're cutting you." Like, there's no other way this is going down, 'cause they need to... 'cause of that ridiculous debt they have to .

Scott Galloway 26:45 I wasn't as confident as you. I thought that they needed to go-

Kara Swisher 26:48 Mm-mm.

Scott Galloway 26:48 ... subscription. Anyways.

Kara Swisher 26:49 Mm-mm. It was the easiest cut. It was the easiest of all the cuts.

Scott Galloway 26:52 Well, they're ki-... aren't they kind of bringing it back? Aren't they doing-

Kara Swisher 26:54 They are. They are. That's what they're doing. They're gonna have to. They have to get in the streaming game. It's just how you do it and, uh, what economics. And as much as we love Stephen Colbert, we think he's an amazing talent, he will be just fine, by the way.

Scott Galloway 27:05 But let me tell you what happens. I- i-... Okay, Stephen Colbert, I think, is making somewhere between 10 and thi-

Kara Swisher 27:11 20 million. 20.

Scott Galloway 27:11 They say between 10... I heard between 10 and 20 million. Okay, so 20 million.

Kara Swisher 27:14 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 27:14 And by the way, worth every penny.

Kara Swisher 27:16 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 27:16 He could make that in two to three years. He could be making that on a podcast with eight people.

Kara Swisher 27:22 Yep.

Scott Galloway 27:22 And maybe 10 million.

Kara Swisher 27:24 Yep.

Scott Galloway 27:24 But he... where it works is you use those clips to promote your podcast, but thriving do... it, it was like we fell into the same trap at the New York Times where we thought letting Google crawl our data, that we would send people-

Kara Swisher 27:36 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 27:36 ... that we could monetize. No. Google got 99.4 cents on the dollar for taking our content and running ads along the right rail. And the traffic they sent us that we monetized with shitty banner ads didn't work. It doesn't work for them. It doesn't...

Kara Swisher 27:49 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 27:50 I consume, I consume the best four minutes of Late Night on TikTok-

Kara Swisher 27:54 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's it.

Scott Galloway 27:55 And it doesn't... I don't go, "Well, now I'm gonna go watch the full 60 minutes on CBS tomorrow night at midnight."

Kara Swisher 28:00 No. Correct. Right.

Scott Galloway 28:00 So the model, the Late Night model, it's pretty much... I think it's over.

Kara Swisher 28:04 Except for SNL, which I think remains quite profitable.

Scott Galloway 28:07 But that's once a week.

Kara Swisher 28:08 Once a week.

Scott Galloway 28:08 It's 70 minutes. It's a ton of talented-

Kara Swisher 28:11 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 28:11 ... people bringing together amazing...

Kara Swisher 28:13 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 28:13 I mean, I think if you had... I think if those shows... and that's a model maybe. If they went to one night, one night a week, like the weekly recap-

Kara Swisher 28:21 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 28:21 ... and made that 60 minutes really outstanding, best guests-

Kara Swisher 28:25 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 28:25 ... you know, that, that might work. But nightly television?

Kara Swisher 28:29 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 28:30 It... uh, it... they just can't do it. They just can't do it.

Kara Swisher 28:31 'Cause the artist can also go direct. So could the book authors. So could... they go to podcasts. They get more... when, when someone's on my podcast, they are like, "Oh, my God, we saw the move." The move, the move is higher than those shows now, which is... except for maybe, like, The View really goosed both their books and stuff like that. But they're expensive. That's just the way they are. So we'll see. I think you're gonna see more of this. I think everyone's gonna be sharpening their knives at all these shows, um, if not cutting them completely. Um, okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Trump tries to distract from Epstein by suing Rupert Murdoch and The Wall Street

Kara Swisher 29:05 Journal. Good luck with that, old crocodile Trump. Scott, we're back. President Trump is suing Rupert Murdoch and The Wall Street Journal over the... over... for defamation over a story about the birthday letter that Trump allegedly sent to Jeffrey Epstein in 20... 2003. The article claimed Trump wrote a letter that included a suggestive drawing for Epstein's 50th birthday. Trump is denying that it was from... saying, quote, "I don't draw pictures." In fact, he does. There's a dozen of them a- available for you to look at, and he's not bad. The lawsuit names Murdoch, Dow Jones, News Corp, News Corp's CEO, and two reporters and seeks at least $10 billion in damages. Trump has ordered Attorney General Pam Bondi to produce grand jury testimony tied to the Epstein case, b- uh, which is a nothing burger. Bondi has asked a federal judge to unseal the transcripts. Um, Trump and Murdoch are two men who love a legal fight. Um, I'm betting on, uh, Murdoch and also, just so you know, you said last week Trump would do all manner of things to distract from Epstein, which he's been doing. This is included in an additional lawsuit. He's now threatened to hold up stadium deal for the Washington Commanders. Um, he also posted a bizarre AI video of Obama getting arrested and put up... well, you, you, you put up a number of these. He's continuing to blame Democrats for the Epstein mess. Let's listen to what Senator Amy Klobuchar had to say about that to Jake Tapper on CNN this weekend.

Narrator 30:18 So the president blaming Democrats for this disaster, Jake, is like that CEO that got caught on camera blaming Coldplay, okay? Like, this is his making. He was president when Epstein got indicted for these charges and went to prison. He was president when Epstein committed suicide.

Kara Swisher 30:40 And also, he was a close friend of, of Epstein's (laughs) for many... for a decade or more. Um, any thoughts on this? And, and a new... the last thing is CBS-YoGov poll finds that 75% of Americans disapprove of the administration's handling of matters related to Epstein. So it's still, as, as I noted, it's sticking around. It's not going away. Uh, and it's, uh... ev-... this weekend, pretty much every major newspaper had very, uh, very detailed, um, stories, which I told you, linking Trump to Epstein. So i- it's solidifying in at least the minds of-... regular people, uh, about how close they were. So, where do you, what do you think about the Murdoch thing and then the distraction element?

Scott Galloway 31:17 Well, in reverse order. We said this last week, and it's happening. Every 24 hours, put out something stupid that the media will go for. So, well, I won't let you n- change the name, uh, that, w- uh, w- I won't improve a new stadium unless you take the Commanders back to the Redskins. Stupid, makes no sense, the media goes for it. That's, okay, it, it does, uh, first off, we should just refer to it, the new team there or the team there as the Washington Epsteins.

Kara Swisher 31:42 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 31:43 And it's, it's not Rosie O'Donnell-

Kara Swisher 31:44 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 31:44 ... it's Rosie O. Epstein.

Kara Swisher 31:45 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 31:46 All, we, we just need to make sure that he knows-

Kara Swisher 31:48 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 31:48 ... this is not working. And-

Kara Swisher 31:50 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 31:51 ... he has no intention of demanding that they change the name.

Kara Swisher 31:54 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 31:55 He ha- he, this is un- unlike the other s- uh, uh, uh, cases, nuisance lawsuits, I think he knows, I think Murdoch does not scare easily. This is actually, I think, good for Murdoch, 'cause it gives people-

Kara Swisher 32:06 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 32:06 ... the impression that Murdoch and his properties are somewhat bipartisan and somewhat have-

Kara Swisher 32:11 Well, just that one part- particularly. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 32:14 Well, yeah, but he's a c-

Kara Swisher 32:14 He, he, he uses the Post to slap-

Scott Galloway 32:16 ... it's Rupert Murdoch.

Kara Swisher 32:17 Yeah. I think he uses different properties for different things. Like, Fox News has been very slow on reporting this stuff, the Epstein stuff. New York Post is just either attacking Mamdani or, or n- not really doing anything here. The Journal does, I ha- I have to say, he's done a great job shepherding the Wall Street Journal and letting them be. But go ahead.

Scott Galloway 32:36 When the Wall Street Journal puts out this reporting, similar to when it, uh, uh ... The Wall Street Journal was the first, I think, the first media outlet where people thought, "Wow, uh, this reporting l- lends me to believe that the wealthiest man in the world is in fact a drug addict." Because the, the general sense of the Wall Street Journal is that they are serious journalists and that if they put out something like this, they have double, double and triple-checked it. And they have, you know, they are not just throwing out shit for clicks. So this really hurts the president. I think the president says, "If I challenge it, it gives the impression that it's not true." But I don't think this will end up like the other cases where they end up settling. I think Rupert Murdoch is gonna stick up the middle finger and this'll be, this'll be dismissed.

Kara Swisher 33:21 Which is what he wanted to do. He's tried to get at him. The, there, there's an idea because Fox News is so smart with the president that Murdoch is. Murdoch is not. Like, let's be, they, all that discovery during that last trial where they were very culpable of what they did around Dominion, uh, Systems, um, it was all these emails saying, "Trump's a fucking asshole," including from, dr- Tucker Carlson, by the way, um, all the internal e- emails and stuff. I think that Murdoch has been sitting in the shallows like an old crocodile that he is, waiting to get at Trump. He does not like this Republican Party. He likes the Republican Party he can control, which is the old Republican Party, right? And so Trump is, is not that. And so I think he's just been waiting here. Very much so, the, uh, Bob Woodward was sued by the, Trump and the judge knocked it out. Like, he's not giving. There's nothing, w- someone was like, "Oh, well, what about Paramount giving? What about CBS giving?" There's nothing he can do to Rupert Murdoch. He can't really pull, someone was like, "They could pull Fox's ..." Good luck with doing that. Like, the stuff he can, he, he can put the screws even to Elon, although it's hard because of s- we'll talk about that in a minute. It's harder to put the screws to Murdoch of, the things ... He's also 109 years old. I don't think this old crocodile gives a fuck. And he wants Trump gone so he can then control, um, Vance or whoever the next one is. His company, he wants control of that person, and he wants Trump gone. And so I think he's not gonna give at all. I'd be shocked if he gave. He wouldn't allow it to happen if, at that, at that public ... I can see all the problems at Fox 'cause they're so sloppy. They're not sloppy at the Wall Street Journal and they would never have published this without all the receipts, never. In my experience, their ex- spectacular journalism goes on there.

Scott Galloway 35:08 Because old media is held to a much higher standard because of Section 230 where they can, where Facebook can circulate massive rumors about Dominion and Smartmatic, uh, that makes what was said on Fox look like a dumpster fire and be immune from that, and then Fox has to pay three-quarters of a billion dollars. You can bet the lawyers and Rupert Murdoch had said, "Okay, any story like this, it better be right, because I've got a three-quarter of a billion dollar scar" (laughs) "from when we decided to tell our anchors to continue to lie about this, knowing that it was a lie." They have been, their eyebrows have been singed and burnt off. So the fact that they were willing to say this and in a pretty aggressive ... I mean, it just makes the president look bad, right?

Kara Swisher 35:58 Yeah, they did a follow-up this week about, more about their relationship, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 36:01 And so what he said is, one, "I want a distraction," and two, "I n-" He needs a distraction every 24 hours, and that's what he's doing right now. Every 24 hours, he is in a room with AI and his comms people saying, "Testing, all these ridiculous stories, do they make us look like idiots? Will we win in court? Doesn't matter. Will it distract CNBC, CNN, MSNBC, and everyone else from, from Epstein's and they'll talk about this?" A ch- a letter firing Chairman Powell, changing the name of a football fi- I mean, these things are so ridiculous. If anyone believes this is anything but a weapon of mass distraction, I don't think they understand this guy's, this guy's strategy. And this is that again. This, unlike the other ones, he has no leverage. Like you said, Rupert does not scare easily. He doesn't care. He's gonna be dead soon. I mean, he's, he, this will be, and also, I think, I think Rupert's the big winner here. I think it comes across as kind of pursuing the truth and as, uh, uh, legitimate, you know, overseeing legitimate journalism. I think, I think News Corp or Rupert, if you will, is the big winner here.

Kara Swisher 37:03 He has long backed editors at the Journal. When they did those, uh, Christian Grein who's now at the New York Times, they did those initial Elon stories. That was a big step out, like, when they did that. And they are, they do not sh- remember they did the one where Elon had slept with Sergey's wife thing? They stepped out on that one. And they stepped, they will, and they will only do it when it is lockdown at the Wall Street Journal. And again, Emma Tucker, the current editor, is fantastic. They've had great editors in the past. He does back, he does back people in that, at that place. At Fox, I think he lost control of the situation, is, with, either it was Roger Ailes or Tucker Carlson or Bill O'Reilly. That's a different ...... beast for him and a different tool. He's doing it diff- and the New York Post is just to, just to write fantastic headlines. It's not me- it's meant ... It's kind of, to me, the New York Post is him in many ways. But at the Wall Street Journal, he's been a good owner. He's been a very good owner. H- I- he's never ... Never once, and I talked to Rupert a lot when I was covering the internet and he really did not like the internet people. Never once did he try to pressure me in any way. He'd call and say, "What do you think of this version?" And, you know. But I'll tell you, I- I- I've been ... I haven't really been pressured at many places. I don't, I don't think I have actually, oddly enough. It doesn't happen, folks. It just doesn't happen and it doesn't happen just 'cause the person's Rupert Murdoch. He's a very good owner of the Wall Street Journal. Uh, and we'll see what happens after he dies. That's gonna be a, that's gonna be a shit show. But we'll see.

Kara Swisher 38:33 Um, okay. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, why Trump can't seem to quit SpaceX. Scott, we're back. The US government just can't quit Elon Musk. A review of SpaceX's government contracts spurred by Musk's feud with President Trump found most were vital. The review found SpaceX to be critical to the Defense Department and NASA. For example, SpaceX's Crew Dragon, uh, Crew Dragon spacecraft, uh, is only, the only US vehicle certified to fly astronauts to and from the space station, and the company's high speed internet through Starlink provides national security satellite capabilities. Um, you, you've mentioned the security risk here. Um, they are trying to find ways to be less reliant on Musk. It is not new to the Trump administration. This was a concern of the Biden administration. It's a concern when any, any vendor gets too much power, as, as it should. Um, but, you know, he's created a product that people have. Why don't you talk a little bit about this? I, I, I had said he's gonna have a hard time getting rid of Musk. What I found offensive is his attempts to get rid of Musk were not because he's trying to protect the US government, it's because he was mad at him. So that's my issue with, with what he was doing here.

Scott Galloway 39:42 I think the best and the worst product of the last couple of years are from the same person. The worst product is hands down the Cybertruck. Just looks ridiculously stupid, not well made, stupid price point, stupid positioning. Um, supposedly sales are like 90% off of projections. The best product is Starlink. It's just, uh, uh ... The delta between everything else and Starlink is staggering on what could be more important. The broadband is like water, and this guy's figured out a way to find more potable water at a lower price. It costs in the ... If you were to kind of reverse engineer, well, what's the secret behind Starlink? 87%, it's 87% of launches, actually 52% of all global orbital launches and 84% of all satellites by mass are from one company. And 87% of launches in 2024 in the US were, were SpaceX, and they're basically launching, doing a launch every 2.1 days because the Falcon Heavy rocket can put a kilogram into space for $2000 and the near closest, like the European equivalent, I think it's Ariane 5 or something, it's $9000. And NASA is kind of even like prohibited because they're not allowed to blow up rockets on the launchpad. They just can't do that as a government agency. So he has a staggering lead and it has led to a situation where two thirds of the low orbit satellites are controlled by one person and his blood sugar might decide one day to turn off Battlefield-

Kara Swisher 41:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 41:20 ... communications technology.

Kara Swisher 41:22 That's the issue.

Scott Galloway 41:22 I think where this ends up, one, I mean the reality is, it would be fair to say the US doesn't have a space program, it has SpaceX. And that is if we (laughs) need to bring astronauts home from the space station, we gotta call Elon. If we want the most sophisticated communication systems in the world and we want to offer it to Ukraine to push back on the Russians, we gotta call Elon. If you're looking ... Uh, I mean Kuiper has to call Elon to put their satellites into space. I think where this goes is, I think this is a monopoly that has avoided or evaded the real scrutiny of the FTC and the DOJ. I don't think that's gonna happen any longer. But at the same time, they don't wanna give up that lead and that competence. I think where we end up is something along the lines of where we've ended up with telco, and that is, I believe there are only two or three networks nationally 'cause they're very expensive to build. AT&T, Ver- and Verizon. I don't know if T-Mobile's a third, if they ran. But basically the DOJ and the FT-

Kara Swisher 42:21 They rent.

Scott Galloway 42:21 Is that right? Uh, basically-

Kara Swisher 42:23 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 42:23 Basically what the DOJ and the FTC said is like, "Okay, we understand the rationale for monopoly." Basically cable companies have c- convinced local regulators that only one company can afford to build out all this fiber, it should be us. So then regulators say, "Fine, you're a regulated monopoly. We have a bureaucrat who looks at your pricing." And then what they did with the telco networks is they forced them to rent them out at an economically fair price to other MVNOs. So for example, Mint Mobile, which is one of the fastest growing telcos in the nation, or was one of the fastest growing telcos in the nation, is on either AT&T or T-Mobile's network. I think that's where this goes, Kara. I don't think you want a kneecap SpaceX. I think what they're gonna do is similar. I think they're gonna legislate what's happened with Kuiper and say, "Fine, you have a monopoly. You keep on trucking, you keep having the most valuable private company in the world, but you have to lease out your launch capability-

Kara Swisher 43:17 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:17 ... to other companies."

Kara Swisher 43:18 Makes sense.Makes sense. That, that, that completely makes sense. I think it w- any government, whether it's the Trump Administration, any administration, Democratic administration, you cannot have one person, especially s- a single person like Elon Musk, given all the other issues, in charge of these things. It's the same thing with, w- with Lockheed or whoever. We have to, we have to have more competition and that's a way to do it. That's exact ... Scott's exactly right. And we do have a more vibrant, um, cellphone. You do have choices 'cause they can rent it out. It doesn't really matter. It's how they market it, h- how well customer service is, not the commodity itself, which is, uh, connection, right? So yes, I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I am bothered that they, even if I don't like Elon Musk, that they decided to go after him 'cause he didn't get along with the president. That should not ever happen. It happens all the time, I guess, but kind of grotesque, um, trying to, trying to get rid of him. I- even if it's right to try to sort of get rid of him or at least create more competition, um, to review things just to screw with someone seems un-American to me.

Scott Galloway 44:18 It, it is such an incredible circuit. Starlink, amongst other things, right? Um, (laughs) uh, they turned off Starlink access for Ukraine during a raid on Russian naval ships in 2022. This is one man deciding to basically reshape what might happen in terms of the invasion, the successful or unsuccessful invasion of Europe. The American military has been quietly building a dependence on Starlink. Most notably, the m- our, our most important ... in my opinion, our most impressive weapons is our ability to d- deliver massive, like, nation-like violence anywhere in the world through our, our-

Kara Swisher 44:55 Satellites?

Scott Galloway 44:55 Well, not a- ... Our satellite's how we communicate, but our na- our satellites which our carrier's squadrons depend upon.

Kara Swisher 45:01 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 45:01 What if all of a sudden, our, our ... we deploy our carriers to a hot spot, even a hot war-

Kara Swisher 45:06 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 45:07 ... and he decides to turn off Starlink? How do you think these car- carriers defend against incoming drones?

Kara Swisher 45:12 Yeah, you have to have other capabilities.

Scott Galloway 45:14 So-

Kara Swisher 45:14 100%. Especially as we go cyber with war, which is where it's headed obviously.

Scott Galloway 45:18 The US government also rewarded SpaceX a $537 million contract for Starlink services for Ukraine's military. So, the most, the most impressive component of Musk's universe and the most dangerous monopoly in the world right now is the same company. It's SpaceX and specifically Starlink. And I don't think you ... I think you wanna incent him, give him the economic upside of this incredible engineering feat, and the fact that good for him, he's established monopoly power. But for security reasons and economic reasons, I think you're gonna, A, on a military level, ensure that he has no decision capability and there is no off switch with wi- within his ketamine-laced fingers, and two, that other companies have access to that infrastructure such that he just doesn't-

Kara Swisher 46:08 Yeah, so they can build up-

Scott Galloway 46:09 ... catch on.

Kara Swisher 46:09 ... competitors. Y- they have been sending Gwynne Shotwell here. She was apparently here for a meeting with the Trump people. She is the CEO of th- s- of, uh, SpaceX. More Gwynne Shotwell, less Elon Musk, 'cause she's well-respected within the defense industries, has been c- ... a quiet, competent executive, uh, though she defends him for bad behaviors.

Scott Galloway 46:26 Let me ask you this. Some-

Kara Swisher 46:27 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 46:27 Someone asked me who was the p- ... I'm in this, this Netflix show I'm working on-

Kara Swisher 46:30 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 46:30 ... they said, "Who's the most powerful female tech executive?" And I said Gwynne Shotwell.

Kara Swisher 46:33 Gwynne Shotwell.

Scott Galloway 46:33 Would you agree with that?

Kara Swisher 46:34 Yes, I would.

Scott Galloway 46:35 Yeah. Me too.

Kara Swisher 46:35 Yes, I would. Quiet. Yes, 100%. Uh, but don't mention Sheryl Sandberg 'cause you're not allowed to under the terms of our contract.

Scott Galloway 46:41 No, not allowed to, nor my erectile dysfunction, nor-

Kara Swisher 46:45 (laughs) And don't you dare make an erectile dysfunction-

Scott Galloway 46:46 Religion. Oh, and they said I couldn't make any-

Kara Swisher 46:47 ... Sheryl Sandberg joke. Do not.

Scott Galloway 46:49 A- a- ... And they also said I couldn't make any religious references.

Kara Swisher 46:51 Oh my God.

Scott Galloway 46:52 Which is like, what?

Kara Swisher 46:53 Oh, Lord.

Scott Galloway 46:53 Anyways, I mean, have you met me?

Kara Swisher 46:55 You are completely godless. I don't know what else

Kara Swisher 46:58 to say. Anyway, and this is why I love you. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Would you like me to go first or would you like to?

Scott Galloway 47:07 You go first.

Kara Swisher 47:08 Okay. My fail, I, I have so many. Um, In-N-Out's, uh, billionaire owner, uh, her name's Lindsay Snyder, she's the granddaughter of the founders. I love In-N-Out. Let me just say I love an In-N-Out burger. My kids love In-N-Out. We've gone there many, many, many ... dozens and hundreds of times and when ... lived in California. It's moving, it, it's, it's expanding. It's moving into the South. Eventually, it'll get to the East Coast, probably never. Um, she's moving to Tennessee, blaming challenges of running her business and raising her family in California. Let me just say, Lindsay, I get it. You wanna move to Tennessee. She's quite m- ... She's a ... They're r- ... They're, they're, uh, conservative is being kind. They're quite on that side, quite far to the right. I still like your fucking burgers, Lindsay. But my business is California made you, made your c- family's business. If you're gonna leave, just leave or stay and help fix it in the way you want to. I just think these people leaving a s- the state, even if there's lots of challenges, and I completely agree, the, the, the, the ung- ... the lack of gratitude, especially since you stick religious things on your thing, is profound. California made you. You have a California vibe to you. You can't just take what you want and leave and then kick it on the way out. By the way, a lot of those tech executives who left and kicked California away are back in California, because it's hot in Austin and it's hot in Miami, and you just can't make that happen in many of those places. So I'm f- ... You move wherever you want, honey, but ... and your burgers are fantastic, but stop, like, kicking a, a state that really did make your family as wealthy as it is. That's my issue with her. Again, please eat at In-N-Out, but Lindsay, you're ungrateful and terrible in that regard. In my positive thing, I would say everyone needs to watch the Gilded Age this season. It's so good. If you like, n- you know, wealth porn and all this stuff, Carrie Coons plays Bertha. Uh, I just love her. Every single person on that show, I love. Um, and it's really fun if you wanna sort of live in another billionaire era essentially and watch them manipulate each other in all kinds of early America. It's, it's ... The third season is really hitting its stride, and it's super, um, soapy also and really fun, and it ... they do a great job on costumes. It's the same guy who did Downton Abbey. Um, it's great. It's really fun, and I'm really enjoying the third season, along with th- the recent season of, um, um, the Sex and the City spinoff, uh, And Just Like That... People are a lot of hate watching it, but it's totally enjoyable, same thing. HBO is really good.

Scott Galloway 49:31 And Just Like That...?

Kara Swisher 49:32 And j- ... It is. It's ... People are hate watching it.

Scott Galloway 49:34 Oh, it's so awful, Kara.

Kara Swisher 49:34 I know, but I'm telling you, it's, it's like going up in the ratings 'cause it's like, uh, people are hate watching it or whatever, and the last episode was actually quite good. Um, uh, I, I like Sarah Jessica Parker. I love her actually, and, um, I just think it's doing really well. I like it. Look, it's winning, so whatever, however-

Scott Galloway 49:50 There you go.

Kara Swisher 49:50 ... winning, both of those shows are doing really well for HBO. Good job, HBO.Thank you. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 49:56 Uh, yeah. Um, I, I'd just like to ... I haven't watched The Gilded Age. Um, uh, Carrie Coon, I thought gave the best monologue in The White Lotus is, uh ... She's in it, right?

Kara Swisher 50:07 Uh-

Scott Galloway 50:07 And-

Kara Swisher 50:07 Yes, and Cynthia Nixon's in both, uh, both the Sex and the City one and also this one. She plays, she's in both, she's in both shows. Anyway, it's great. It's a great show. It's a great show.

Scott Galloway 50:16 There you go.

Kara Swisher 50:16 Carrie Coon's is so good.

Scott Galloway 50:18 Um, uh, I, my win is, uh, I just, uh, interviewed, uh, Governor Whitmer, Gretchen Whitmer, and it just struck me, every time I talk to ... I, I think it's so easy to be really cynical about our elected officials. I think when you get to, when you, when you talk to a lot of these people, you know, raised by, raised by a single mother, um, two daughters, three stepsons, um, you know, s- very open about didn't have her shit together in high school, went to Michigan State then got her act together and went to law school and is just a very impressive person. And, and, uh, just reminded me that there really are a lot of people who are ... give up a lot of economic upside to be great public servants. And I enjoyed the conversation with her, so, I don't know, my win is, uh, Governor Whitmer are the ... And Michigan does a pretty good job. I mean, pretty bipartisan. They have economic growth there. They ... Good quality of life, trying to keep affordability or, you know, building a lot of housing, great universities, um, things.

Kara Swisher 51:17 They are.

Scott Galloway 51:18 So-

Kara Swisher 51:18 Go Michigan. Do you think she'll run?

Scott Galloway 51:20 Mich-

Kara Swisher 51:20 Just curious, from talking to her. I don't think she will.

Scott Galloway 51:23 Uh, I assume that anyone who, who calls me and comes on my podcast is running for president.

Kara Swisher 51:28 Okay. I don't-

Scott Galloway 51:29 Why would they do that?

Kara Swisher 51:29 ... think so.

Scott Galloway 51:29 To hang out with, like, my charming wit and-

Kara Swisher 51:31 I don't know, 'cause you're so ... 'Cause she-

Scott Galloway 51:32 ... sunshiny personality?

Kara Swisher 51:32 A penis joke? She likes a good penis joke, I'm sure.

Scott Galloway 51:34 She spent an hour and a half on my podcast with me. A- anyone who calls ... Anyone who takes an interest in me-

Kara Swisher 51:40 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 51:40 ... is, um-

Kara Swisher 51:41 A presidential timber.

Scott Galloway 51:42 ... usually asking (laughs) is asking for money or is planning to run for president.

Kara Swisher 51:45 (laughs) Well, maybe both. I don't know.

Scott Galloway 51:46 Uh, by the way, immediately heard from, uh, uh, Public Broadcasting. What's it called? PBS, NPR, KBS-

Kara Swisher 51:53 P- yeah, NPR.

Scott Galloway 51:53 ... CBS.

Kara Swisher 51:53 PBS, yeah. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 51:55 BD.

Kara Swisher 51:55 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 51:55 Uh, the Corporation for Public Broadcast. As soon as I said I was donating money, immediately, that, that minute ... Good for them.

Kara Swisher 52:00 They called you? Good for them.

Scott Galloway 52:01 I got a, a nice email from the Director of Development saying, "I'm here to facilitate the wire."

Kara Swisher 52:06 Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Scott Galloway 52:06 The wire.

Kara Swisher 52:07 The wire transfer.

Scott Galloway 52:08 And then said, and then said, "We'd love, we'd love to set up a call and hear about your vision." And I'm like, "Oh, God. Here we go."

Kara Swisher 52:14 Ah.

Scott Galloway 52:14 "Here we go."

Kara Swisher 52:14 Here's the check. Give them the money.

Scott Galloway 52:15 Here, here we go. Anyways, my win is the great state of Michigan and Governor Whitmer. Um-

Kara Swisher 52:19 Okay.

Scott Galloway 52:19 My fail is, I'm really on this thing. I think we should ... I'd like to see a Democrat or somebody propose legislation that unless it's in, uh, unless it's in the agency of a military operation or a national security threat, um, I just don't think any civic employee should ever be allowed to wear masks. I just ... Uh, uh, I find, um, if you look at what's going on, uh, the Obama administration was actually deporting two to 3X per month the number of immigrants as the Trump administration. So, what do we have here? We have something that is ineffective, that is purely for performance and fear, and when a government is now getting more funding to the FBI, uh, just to instill fear in citizens and create distractions and cosplay macho, uh, you gotta think, well, not only is that strange, but also, the thing that leads to bad behavior and creates that, that atmosphere of fear that is ineffective is ... A lot of it is these masks. And o- o- I've been thinking a lot about identity. I just don't think, uh, people who we pay to enforce the law, to perform a civic function, should be hiding their identity.

Kara Swisher 53:29 Agree. That's the-

Scott Galloway 53:30 And-

Kara Swisher 53:30 That's-

Scott Galloway 53:31 It, it, it-

Kara Swisher 53:31 That's the life they've chosen.

Scott Galloway 53:32 Well, look, if you're a Navy SEAL doing special ops, I get it.

Kara Swisher 53:35 Yeah. Okay, yeah.

Scott Galloway 53:36 If you're, if you're a pilot-

Kara Swisher 53:37 CIA agent. CIA.

Scott Galloway 53:38 Yeah, whatever it might be. I get it.

Kara Swisher 53:40 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 53:40 But if you're, if you're, um, um, showing up to Home Depots, take the fucking mask off. I wanna see who you are. I wanna see-

Kara Swisher 53:48 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 53:48 ... how you acquit yourself. I wanna see that you have some sort of fidelity to the law and just, uh, uh, hold yourself to a certain level of humanity when people know. It's a pretty basic standard to, to hold your actions to your identity, and the people who should be most ... who should have the most responsibility for that are the people charged with upholding our laws and giving people confidence that their tax dollars and their government are acquitting themselves in a, in an honorable, decent way. Anyways, I'm a ... I ... And, and by the way, I don't think if you're engaging in h- hate speech on campus, I'm not sure you should be allowed to wear a mask either. And I don't know if you can enforce that, but I would like to see the chancellors of universities say, "If you show up," and, uh, just to be clear-

Kara Swisher 54:34 Show your face.

Scott Galloway 54:35 Uh-

Kara Swisher 54:35 Show your face.

Scott Galloway 54:36 Yeah. Look, if you wanna show up and start saying things, masks are not allowed. And-

Kara Swisher 54:40 Hmm. That's probably less enforceable.

Scott Galloway 54:43 Probably. Anyways-

Kara Swisher 54:43 The other o- the other one is too, probably, but I agree. Government employees-

Scott Galloway 54:46 There you go.

Kara Swisher 54:46 ... certainly should. That's a good one.

Scott Galloway 54:48 When's the last time you ate at In-N-Out?

Kara Swisher 54:51 Oh, just the last time I was in San Francisco. I eat at it all the time. Every time. My brother-

Scott Galloway 54:55 That's amazing, isn't it?

Kara Swisher 54:55 L- my brother lives ... Um, and when I go see Jeff, um, he has one. I, when I go south to Silicon ... I, I eat there. My kids love it. I have the one with, with the lettuce. I don't ... With the, um ... What's it called? When you eat it with u- with just lettuce. With, uh-

Scott Galloway 55:09 Animal Style?

Kara Swisher 55:10 Yeah. No, Animal Style, that's what Alex eats. That's when you have all that crap on it. Like, A- Alex eats Animal Style. That has all kinds of ... I don't have the heart for it. Um, but it's great. It's wonderful. Their shakes are good. Their fries die in five seconds, but they're delicious in that five seconds they exist. I love them. I still think she should be grateful to California and, and stop, like, pissing on it. Anyway, um, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, last week on On With Kara Swisher, I spoke with writer and former advice columnist E. Jean Carroll and her lead attorney Roberta Kaplan, two badasses. Since Trump started defaming Carol, she's gotten hundreds, if not thousands, of threats, including death threats, but she's not backing down, and she's waiting to get her money and she's closer than ever to getting the first payment. We'll see about the second, but it looks like she probably will, will get them. Let's listen to a clip.

Narrator 56:05 I don't care if they shoot me. I don't care. I'd like to get shot in the arm. I'd like to get shot ... I don't wanna be shot in the head and dead. I don't care. I do not care. I want everybody in the country to get off their lazy asses and walk outside, look at their neighbors. That's what I'd like people to do. It's stupid to be afraid. Why live your life that way? I've been here 81 years, and I'm not gonna waste the last of it worrying about that guy in marmalade-colored makeup.

Kara Swisher 56:32 I really like her. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 56:33 Go girl.

Kara Swisher 56:34 Go girl. She's so badass. She's ... Listen to it. She's joyful, and she won her cases, both jury trials, and he keeps, uh, making trouble. I think that shows you. Roberta Kaplan did an amazing job. She also de- uh, won against the, uh, the assholes in Charlottesville. She's, she's a winner, um, in many ways. So we'll see. Uh, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out.

Scott Galloway 57:02 Today's show was produced by Lara Nejman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Innertha engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mia Silverio, and Dan Shalon. Nishat Chua is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a great rest of the week.