Don Lemon Arrest: "First Step Towards Mass Repression”

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   The more Donald Trump gets away with,…

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      The more Donald Trump gets away with, if he is allowed to pardon people, and there's not enough uproar about it, and nothing happens, then he's gonna, um, uh, pick- he's gonna arrest people without due process on the streets or detain them, uh, even if they're American citizens. [upbeat music]

   2. KSKara Swisher0:19

      Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

   3. SGScott Galloway0:24

      And I'm Scott Galloway.

   4. KSKara Swisher0:25

      Uh, again, Scott, we have to do an emergency episode. This is getting kind of ridiculous. Uh, we had to jump in here to talk, uh, to our audience about what's happening right now with journalist and our friend Don Lemon. Right now, he was recently on the show, uh, as a guest host while you were away. Um, but he was arrested by authorities in Los Angeles Thursday night, where he was covering the Grammy Awards, um, accused of violating federal law tied to a protest he covered as a journalist at a Minnesota church earlier this month. Lemon and three other journalists were arrested in connection with the, with this, uh, this event at the City's church in St. Paul, Minnesota. Attorney General Pam Bondi said she ordered the arrest of Don and three others, uh, citing a connection to a coordinated attack on the church. Don has repeatedly said he was there as a journalist, not a protester, and if you watch what he did there, that's what he was doing, including interviewing the pastor and others. A magistrate judge rejected an earlier attempt by the DOJ to bring charges against Don, uh, and other protesters, and the DOJ petitioned a federal appeals court to force the judge to issue an additional warrant, only to be denied, but the DOJ went ahead anyway, even though courts and prosecutors within those offices in Los Angeles and Minnesota are resisting this. Lemon's lawyers called the attack... uh, the arrest, an attack on the First Amendment, obviously, and says Lemon will fight the case in court. He's supposed to be, uh, arraigned, uh, today in Los Angeles. Obviously, Don's a friend of ours, a friend of mine. Um, he's been, uh, been reaching, uh, reaching out. At Pat- when he, when he was fired from CNN, he and I got to know each other 'cause I helped him sort of mount what he was doing, which was independent journalism, and I've been very proud of him, what he's been doing. He's doing a lot of street journalism, taking his, his, uh, microphone to people, asking them questions. He's built a big following on YouTube. I think he crossed a million subscribers recently. But what's- what he's doing is really amazing. He's doing these things, and what he does, he's a man on the street, essentially. And so he went into this church while this event was taking place and, um, and was doing reporting, and which a lot [chuckles] of reporters should do, you know? I think he's found a new life in doing it as an independent journalist, and it's pretty, um, pretty amazing, all the stuff he's been doing. Very varied and talking to all kinds of people, not just, uh, liberals or but conservatives. He goes in places other journalists don't go. Um, and I think it's a real value, what he's doing. And so he was doing this here. Um, he was... Then it was the Grammys. I mean, it's very varied where he goes. Uh, he was in New Orleans for New Year's and stuff, and so what he was doing here was journalism. And because, you know, he's had a target on him by the Trump administration, who never liked him when he was at CNN, and, uh, and so this is what they're doing, and they're getting- what they were getting is a lot of pressure from church groups for this group going into a church, and you can debate whether they should have gone in that church, but a journalist certainly could follow a group of people in there. He did not coordinate the attacks. They're gonna try to allege he did, that he was part of it. Um, but it's really, again, part of this, uh, what I said, uh, on, in today's episode that just aired, was they're gonna keep escalating 'cause they're desperate, and they're losing the public case. Um, and so part of their, their, their, uh, handbook here, the fascist handbook, is to attack journalists. It's happened in Turkey. It's happened in all manner of the aut- uh, authoritarian countries, and this is what you do. And, uh, and so doing these high-profile cases, even though judges and lawyers do not want to do this and say it's full of shit, which it is, um, is really frightening. Um, and it's meant to frighten, and what we have to do is push back. We have to fight it, but the fact is, they will keep doing this, and they will not back out. They will not de-escalate. This is part of the, the... This is part of the problem, is you all think you can work with these people, and you cannot. Uh, any thoughts you have? I, I'm, uh, it makes me nervous. I have a lot of people who have, have been threatening to me, and, uh, it makes every journalist-

   5. SGScott Galloway4:24

      I'm sure

   6. KSKara Swisher4:24

      ... who's doing any kind of speaking out, um, uh, really, uh, really at, at risk, I would say.

   7. SGScott Galloway4:30

      Yeah, I think it's important to distinguish that this wasn't, uh, you know, 50 people refusing to leave an area, and they get arrested one by one for trespassing.

   8. KSKara Swisher4:39

      Mm-hmm.

   9. SGScott Galloway4:39

      This was our attorney general, the federal government, specifically targeting specific journalists-

   10. KSKara Swisher4:45

       Mm-hmm

   11. SGScott Galloway4:46

       ... and essentially deciding to criminalize journalism, which, at the end of the day, converts politics into policing.

   12. KSKara Swisher4:54

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SGScott Galloway4:54

       And also, this really should be-

   14. KSKara Swisher4:56

       Well said

   15. SGScott Galloway4:56

       ... a cause for alarm bec- well, it's the first step-

   16. KSKara Swisher5:00

       Mm

   17. SGScott Galloway5:00

       ... in state capture of truth.

   18. KSKara Swisher5:02

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SGScott Galloway5:02

       They, they arrest journalists. That's kind of the first step towards mass repression, and it's not usually just journalists. They go after loud critics-

   20. KSKara Swisher5:10

       Yeah

   21. SGScott Galloway5:10

       ... polarizing figures-

   22. KSKara Swisher5:11

       Mm-hmm

   23. SGScott Galloway5:12

       ... people that the public, quite frankly, are already split on. So Don Lemon is a controversial figure. A lot of people don't like him and will celebrate this, but once you normalize-

   24. KSKara Swisher5:21

       Mm-hmm

   25. SGScott Galloway5:21

       ... criminalizing journalism from whatever political spectrum-

   26. KSKara Swisher5:25

       Mm-hmm

   27. SGScott Galloway5:25

       ... the enforcement widens really fast. And just some historical context, this happened in Turkey in 2013. The initial arrests were seen as, quote-unquote, "law enforcement," and within five years, Turkey became the world's largest jailer of journalists. Uh, Russia in the 2000s, early cases targeted, quote-unquote, "controversial reporters," and the result now is that Russia now ranks in the bottom 10% globally for press freedom. The other, the, you know, I always go to the money here. When a society starts doing this, it almost always, uh, predates economic collapse, whether it's Egypt, whether it's Hungary. This isn't a good move for the economy because what happens here is it's not the censorship itself-... but it creates an environment of self-censorship-

   28. KSKara Swisher6:13

       Absolutely

   29. SGScott Galloway6:13

       -where people stop, start spiking stories, et cetera.

   30. KSKara Swisher6:17

       Well-
2. 15:00 – 17:04

   Absolutely. I mean, I, I, I like…

   1. SGScott Galloway15:00

      much anyone else. That's it, and we have revered that, and we have protected it, and the moment, the moment that falls, it is really hard to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

   2. KSKara Swisher15:12

      Absolutely. I mean, I, I, I like that you're actually focusing in on the, on the, on the business part of it, 'cause it's important, too. It's easy to get, you know, a high dudgeon here, which I have, but you're right. It... This is an exciting part of the economy, and, um, and, and the fact that, that they're doing this is just typical. This is so-- We're, we are hungry. We're becoming hungry. We're becoming, you know, this soft descent into hungry. [chuckles] I don't know what else to say. It's so ridiculous. A- and, and, uh, fix your- I'm looking up just, uh, the First Amendment. I'm just gonna read it for people, for goodness sake. Let me... Uh, I'm just gonna do it. Cong- It's very short, Scott, and it's first, so it's super easy. "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for redress of grievances." Well, folks, we're aggrieved, and we're gonna petition them for that. Anyway, Don, we're thinking of you.

   3. SGScott Galloway16:16

      We're gonna continue to peace- peaceably assemble. [chuckles]

   4. KSKara Swisher16:18

      Yes, and we are. You know why it's first? 'Cause it's best. Anyway, uh, I appreciate it, Scott. Thank you so much. I was super rattled this morning, and my good friend Scott, uh, as usual, has some amazing insights, and it's really important that we keep at this. And if I get arrested, Scott, will you come and get me? Will you come?

   5. SGScott Galloway16:35

      I, I'm literally... I'm proud to say, and this goes for you-

   6. KSKara Swisher16:38

      Yeah

   7. SGScott Galloway16:38

      ... I'm people's jail call.

   8. KSKara Swisher16:39

      Okay. [chuckles]

   9. SGScott Galloway16:39

      I always carry a shit ton of cash-

   10. KSKara Swisher16:42

       [chuckles]

   11. SGScott Galloway16:42

       ... and I'm a night person, so I'll come down anywhere late at night-

   12. KSKara Swisher16:44

       [chuckles] Okay

   13. SGScott Galloway16:44

       ... with a bunch of c- cash and all like that.

   14. KSKara Swisher16:46

       Yeah. If it's for something else.

   15. SGScott Galloway16:47

       A lot of discretion, no questions asked. I'm your call, Kara.

   16. KSKara Swisher16:50

       All right. Thanks, Scott.

   17. SGScott Galloway16:51

       There you go.

   18. KSKara Swisher16:52

       All right, everybody. Thank you very much.

   19. SGScott Galloway16:54

       Thanks, everyone.

   20. KSKara Swisher16:54

       Again, that's the Emergency Show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back with a full show on Tuesday.

Episode duration: 17:09