Elon Musk Drug Use Concerns Business Leaders | Pivot

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   ... our first big…

   1. KSKara Swisher0:00

      ... our first big story, and we've gotta get to it, uh, is a, uh, a Wall Street Journal piece. It's a new piece that came out last night. Um, Elon Musk has used illegal drugs, worrying leaders at Tesla and SpaceX. The article cites people close to Musk who say his drug use is ongoing and includes board members, it feels like, and, uh, and one, uh, one name specifically, but it looks like they were all talking. Particularly the ketamine, and there are concerns it could cause a health crisis or damage the business. Uh, Musk has a lot of business, um, with, uh, with the government and he's already... I don't know if he was sanctioned, but he had to do drug tests after he smoked weed on Joe Rogan. This is seemingly more serious and it's interesting that, um, you know, this has been around. We've talked about it, uh, Ronan Farrow wrote about it. Like, lots of people have cited this issue, not so much in Walter Isaacson's book, uh, which it should've, uh, had more about it. Um, but i- it's, uh, it's sort of an open secret a- about this and, y- the Wall Street Journal obviously has lawyered up to, to be able to say this. Um, in a minute we're gonna bring on, uh, my brother, Jeff Swisher, to help us talk through this one. Uh, just first reactions, Scott? And then I'll bring on Jeff.

   2. SGScott Galloway1:08

      First reactions. Uh, look, uh, we talk a lot about substances. Uh, the majority of people, I believe, who use substances, manage them. And I'm not an anti-substance person, but, um, along those same lines, there's just no free lunch. And when I saw, um, when I saw Elon Musk in that interview at the Times Deal Book, I'm like, "He, he's fucked up."

   3. KSKara Swisher1:32

      Yeah.

   4. SGScott Galloway1:32

      And, and there, th- th- it all comes back to one saying. What I tell young people around their use of substances is, "There's just no free lunch." There-

   5. KSKara Swisher1:41

      Yeah.

   6. SGScott Galloway1:42

      And what I have... and I'll s- stop here, but the thing that really struck me was when I was in Aspen this summer. Um, I was alone and I was bored and a friend said, "I have a bunch of friends there," and we all went to dinner. Like, 12 of us, bunch of-

   7. KSKara Swisher1:54

      Hm.

   8. SGScott Galloway1:54

      ... total players in technology and private equity. And we went to this lounge and I said, "What can I get everyone? I'm headed to the bar." And they said, and w- this guy goes, they all kind of nodded or laughed and said, "We're all on ketamine."

   9. KSKara Swisher2:07

      Yeah.

   10. SGScott Galloway2:07

       And I thought-

   11. KSKara Swisher2:08

       Yeah.

   12. SGScott Galloway2:08

       ... "Oh my God. Everybody?" This is like six men-

   13. KSKara Swisher2:10

       Right.

   14. SGScott Galloway2:10

       ... six women, and the tech, the tech community likes to believe-

   15. KSKara Swisher2:14

       Yeah.

   16. SGScott Galloway2:14

       ... they have found a free lunch.

   17. KSKara Swisher2:17

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SGScott Galloway2:17

       And, uh, uh, uh, and we said this before.

   19. KSKara Swisher2:19

       So no repercussions like with-

   20. SGScott Galloway2:20

       No such thing.

   21. KSKara Swisher2:21

       ... cocaine or...

   22. SGScott Galloway2:21

       There's no such thing.

   23. KSKara Swisher2:23

       Yeah.

   24. SGScott Galloway2:23

       I haven't found it yet.

   25. KSKara Swisher2:23

       Yeah.

   26. SGScott Galloway2:23

       Maybe caffeine. Caffeine's supposedly the f- the f- closest thing to a free lunch, but I haven't found it, I'm sure.

   27. KSKara Swisher2:28

       Yeah.

   28. SGScott Galloway2:28

       I'm curious what Dr. Swisher thinks.

   29. KSKara Swisher2:30

       Yeah. We'll bring him on. It was interesting because, uh, you know, this was the holiday season this came out, um, where he has some time off. Um, I had heard rumors. There was rumors running around Silicon Valley that they m- had him in Hawaii last year, same thing. Um, and obviously he's talked about it, let's be clear. He's talked about his use of ketamine, he's talked about his mental health issues, um, obviously smoked weed on Joe Rogan. And nothing wrong with that, excepting his government contracts, which is, is a big problem. And I think away from his own health, which makes you worry, um, 'cause there's been history of a lot of tech people like this getting into real trouble, like Tony Hsieh. Um, and, uh, you know, I think it's been an ongoing discussion among and between people in Silicon Valley. And this one example in the piece was him being incomprehensible during, uh, a SpaceX meeting, um, and I think you're right. That interview, I, I looked at it and I thought, "What? He's on something." I mean, I, I don't have any reported knowledge of it, but it really was such a bizarre, um, interview. It seemed either mental health or something else was happening. Anyway, we're not experts, so we're bringing on my brother, Dr. Jeffrey Swisher, to help us talk through this one.

   30. JSDr. Jeffrey Swisher3:43

       Hey, Kara. How you doing?
2. 15:00 – 26:38

   And by the way,…

   1. JSDr. Jeffrey Swisher15:00

      and ketamine is a very useful drug. Uh, I mean, similar, what happened with Michael Jackson and propofol. I mean, ev-, uh, every day people tell me, "You're not gonna give me that propofol drug." It's like, yeah, basically it's the most common anesthetic in the world. Yes, I'm gonna give it to you.

   2. SGScott Galloway15:13

      And by the way, it's amazing.

   3. JSDr. Jeffrey Swisher15:13

      But, you know, when-

   4. KSKara Swisher15:15

      (laughs)

   5. JSDr. Jeffrey Swisher15:16

      Oh, it's amazing. (laughs)

   6. SGScott Galloway15:17

      It is, it's amazing.

   7. JSDr. Jeffrey Swisher15:17

      Yeah, it is.

   8. SGScott Galloway15:17

      Whenever I've had a colonoscopy, I take that thing-

   9. JSDr. Jeffrey Swisher15:20

      Yeah.

   10. SGScott Galloway15:20

       ... and 30 minutes later, I'm, I'm, I- I mean-

   11. KSKara Swisher15:23

       Yeah.

   12. SGScott Galloway15:23

       ... it's amazing.

   13. KSKara Swisher15:25

       Yeah.

   14. JSDr. Jeffrey Swisher15:25

       Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's literally probably the greatest invention in anesthesia I- in its history. Um, but, but ketamine is-

   15. KSKara Swisher15:31

       But not for daily nightly use.

   16. SGScott Galloway15:33

       Yeah.

   17. JSDr. Jeffrey Swisher15:33

       No. So that's the problem is that you, you know, using propofol in your living room by someone who did not admit, you know. So they, they, it's not the drug that's the problem, it's the person giving it-

   18. SGScott Galloway15:42

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JSDr. Jeffrey Swisher15:42

       ... or the person taking it.

   20. SGScott Galloway15:43

       My sense is, more generally as it relates to drugs in our society, and I don't know if it's the far right or an attempt to use drugs as a tool to keep people of color down through incarceration and drug bill, whatever it might be, but we have a tendency to go very black and white. Uh, marijuana helps people sleep, helps people with anxiety, helps kids with glaucoma, but we just decided, oh, it was all bad. And it, it strikes me that no one wants to have a nuanced conversation around what is an appropriate use of a drug. And the fact that something like 85% of people who use alcohol and drugs are functioning. (laughs) And it's not impacting them in a terribly negative way. Having said that, alcohol is a menace and terrible for tens of millions of homes in America, but nobody wants to have really what I would describe as a thoughtful conversation. They want to assign something is only used in a medical context, but when it's used outside of a medical context, it's immediately, it must be all negative and all bad. And we demonize it, criminalize it, and in my view, just make, make things, you know, much, much worse. Anyways, it wasn't a question, it was a TED Talk.

   21. KSKara Swisher16:50

       Yeah, um-

   22. JSDr. Jeffrey Swisher16:50

       No, I mean, it's, it's, you're right, the most commonly abused drug, uh, by far and away is alcohol.

   23. SGScott Galloway16:55

       Alcohol, yeah.

   24. JSDr. Jeffrey Swisher16:55

       And, you know, more people drown because they, uh, are, you know, drunk and, you know, doing stupid things in boats than, than have ever been, you know, drowned by ketamine.

   25. KSKara Swisher17:04

       Yeah.

   26. JSDr. Jeffrey Swisher17:04

       I mean, it was not even close.

   27. KSKara Swisher17:06

       Right, right. But this creates a situation where they're trying to bring ketamine and other psychedelics into really good medical uses and then it gets, you know, either glamorized and demonized, both glamorized and demonized by people like, uh, Musk and others. Um, which is, you know, before, it's the cart before the horse 'cause I think they will be using these, um, it's an intriguing drug. Correct? Um, Scott-

   28. JSDr. Jeffrey Swisher17:28

       Yes.

   29. KSKara Swisher17:29

       ... what's, what's the responsibility of a board member in this situation? It looks like several board members talked or someone's worried, this is why I can't imagine the Journal would move forward this, uh, you know, Rupert Murdoch and the Murdoch family would move without some level of assurance that they... And I have to tell you, discovery would be fascinating because I don't think, you know, the stories of Elon's wild party life are really quite out there all the time and they just are, they just are.

   30. SGScott Galloway17:56

       It, the governance question here is complicated because supposedly, there was a director who resigned over concerns-

Episode duration: 26:38