Kamala Harris and the Democrats are Running on Joy — Is That a Winning Strategy? | Pivot

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Vice President Kamala Harris…

   1. KSKara Swisher0:00

      Vice President Kamala Harris is moving into the next phase of her campaign with the Democratic National Convention now in the rear view mirror. The Harris campaign said over the weekend, it had now raised $540 million since launching last month, with $82 million coming during the convention. Nearly a third of those donations from the convention which, came from first time contributors. Um, I wanted... I, I, I started with the idea of joy that the Harris campaign and Democrats are leaning into heavily. Uh, we heard it mentioned in a number of convention speeches last week. Talk a little bit about i-... What do you think about the politics of joy? You've written in the past about the power of collective effervescence, which is kind of a cooler way to say it, but joy is an easier word, three, just three letters.

   2. AGAdam Grant0:38

      (laughs)

   3. KSKara Swisher0:38

      Essentially group happiness that was esce-... that was especially powerful post-COVID. Can you talk a little bit about this?

   4. AGAdam Grant0:44

      Yeah. I think the sociologist Durkheim first wrote about collective effervescence is that sense of energy and purpose you get in a group when you have a common goal together. And I do think that's what the Kamala Harris campaign has created for a lot of people who, you know, either thought Biden was too old or just weren't energized by his candidacy. (laughs) At the same time, you don't, you don't want to be a Pollyanna, as a leader.

   5. KSKara Swisher1:06

      Mm-hmm. Right.

   6. AGAdam Grant1:07

      Um, you want people to, to understand that you recognize the pain and the hardship you're, they're facing.

   7. KSKara Swisher1:11

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AGAdam Grant1:11

      And that's why I would frame this much more as hope than joy.

   9. KSKara Swisher1:14

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AGAdam Grant1:14

       I think joy is about the, the energy-

   11. KSKara Swisher1:16

       Well, hope was taken by Obama, but go ahead. I mean, for-

   12. AGAdam Grant1:18

       Well, you could, you could say that, but-

   13. KSKara Swisher1:20

       Right.

   14. AGAdam Grant1:20

       ... I, I think in analyzing it, right?

   15. KSKara Swisher1:22

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AGAdam Grant1:22

       What we're really talking about is energy people have around a possible future.

   17. KSKara Swisher1:26

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AGAdam Grant1:26

       Not about the present, right? Nobody's feeling joy, um, around this if, you know, if Trump wins.

   19. KSKara Swisher1:32

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AGAdam Grant1:33

       So I think that, you know, the fact that it's forward-looking means it's, it really is hope, not joy. Um, I think it's anticipatory. I think it's excitement about what's to come, and I do think that energizes people to vote, and I think... (laughs) You know, we, we have had a, a long political, I guess, streak of, you know, of politicians bashing and trashing each other.

   21. KSKara Swisher1:53

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AGAdam Grant1:54

       But I don't want to assume it always has to be that way. I, I look-

   23. KSKara Swisher1:57

       Right.

   24. AGAdam Grant1:57

       ... for example, at the campaign that Halla Þómasdóttir ran in Iceland-

   25. KSKara Swisher2:01

       Mm-hmm.

   26. AGAdam Grant2:01

       ... for president recently, uh, where she won refusing to attack her opponents-

   27. KSKara Swisher2:06

       Uh-huh.

   28. AGAdam Grant2:06

       ... running a campaign based on curiosity and hope and enthusiasm, and people resonated with that. Now, Iceland is a tiny country.

   29. KSKara Swisher2:15

       Right.

   30. AGAdam Grant2:15

       But I, I wouldn't assume that America, which is often (laughs) regarded as the most enthusiastic country on Earth-
2. 15:00 – 17:59

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. AGAdam Grant15:00

      in, in getting him to say, "Okay, there's actually upside here, right? I can pass the torch."

   2. KSKara Swisher15:04

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AGAdam Grant15:04

      "I can solidify my legacy. I can elevate the next generation. I can lift up a woman of color for a shot at the presidency."

   4. KSKara Swisher15:11

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AGAdam Grant15:11

      I think those arguments landed, and that, that is very much what we see outside of the Oval Office is, if you're gonna have that kind of conversation with a leader in power, um, you, you have to help them recognize that they're compromised in their judgment, that they're obviously (laughs) gonna be looking for information that convinces them that they're gonna win and discounting-

   6. KSKara Swisher15:29

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AGAdam Grant15:29

      ... anything that would-

   8. KSKara Swisher15:30

      Sure.

   9. AGAdam Grant15:30

      ... lead them to lose.

   10. KSKara Swisher15:31

       Which is common.

   11. AGAdam Grant15:31

       So I would have gotten him to pre-commit, to say, "Okay, there, there are a group of people I trust," or, "There are a group of polls that I would be willing to trust, and if the polls, you know, hit a certain level, then yes, I will step aside."

   12. KSKara Swisher15:43

       Right. Now, that's difficult. I was just reading, there's a excerpt from a new book about, uh, the Twitter takeover, and a lot of it was about, uh, people who knew better, r- this was particularly around the Blue, uh, rollout, which wasn't gonna work, and a lot of us said this, like, "Come on," um, internally, that knew that, and continued... tried to say it and then couldn't. And there was all these people who had to cope with the leader, w- you know, w- who was different one-on-one versus in a group, where they had to feel dominant in a group. Some situations are impossible, correct? That you can't, 'cause it's their, you know, it's their pop stand, and so they're gonna do what they want.

   13. AGAdam Grant16:19

       It, it, it is frustrating how much of this rests on the shoulders of a leader, right? To, to not only ask for dissenting views, but to prove that they can handle the truth. If you have a leader that doesn't do that, (laughs) yeah, I think you're going out on a limb there. I think the first thing you could do is, you know, is just say, "I'm worried that people are not gonna be honest with you because they care a lot about your approval, and your opinion, you know, it has real weight around here. Can we do an anonymous poll?" And sometimes that's enough if the leader's open to it. Um, I think to your point, it's, uh, a lot easier to have trust one-on-one than it is in a large ch- group setting, and so I would try to catch the leader before or afterward. Uh, but easier said than done. You know, I think that, (laughs) that weak leaders shoot the messenger. I think that strong leaders praise the messenger, but truly great leaders promote the messenger, and I don't think we have enough leaders doing that.

   14. KSKara Swisher17:09

       No, not any, actually, in my experience (laughs) . I don't know. Anyway, um, it's really interesting. We'll see what happens. Um, I do think... One of the things I, I will say about Kamala Harris, h- having spent a lot of time with her, is she really does try to listen to a lot of opinions. I, I, I, I wa- I was always struck by that about her. She'd always have me in and say, "What's the worst thing here? What's the..." You know, very much like a lawyer would. Like, "What, what can I get hit with? What can I..." And it wasn't so much political. It was more like, "Challenge me, so I can make a better argument." It was interesting. She's a really interesting character.

   15. AGAdam Grant17:38

       That's encouraging.

   16. KSKara Swisher17:39

       Yeah, it was. It was. And it w- I was always like, "Oh, you're fucked on that one," you know?

   17. AGAdam Grant17:43

       (laughs)

   18. KSKara Swisher17:43

       And she welcomed it. And she... I didn't say she welcomed it, but she, she wasn't pretending it wasn't true. Anyway, um, that's, that's what good... I think that's what good leaders do, collect all kind... and then make a decision even if it's wrong.

Episode duration: 17:59