PivotKamala Harris and the Democrats are Running on Joy — Is That a Winning Strategy? | Pivot
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
40 min read · 8,026 words- 0:00 – 0:44
Post-DNC Harris campaign momentum and the rise of “joy” messaging
- KSKara Swisher
Vice President Kamala Harris is moving into the next phase of her campaign with the Democratic National Convention now in the rear view mirror. The Harris campaign said over the weekend, it had now raised $540 million since launching last month, with $82 million coming during the convention. Nearly a third of those donations from the convention which, came from first time contributors. Um, I wanted... I, I, I started with the idea of joy that the Harris campaign and Democrats are leaning into heavily. Uh, we heard it mentioned in a number of convention speeches last week. Talk a little bit about i-... What do you think about the politics of joy? You've written in the past about the power of collective effervescence, which is kind of a cooler way to say it, but joy is an easier word, three, just three letters.
- AGAdam Grant
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
Essentially group happiness that was esce-... that was especially powerful post-COVID. Can you talk a little bit about this?
- 0:44 – 1:11
Collective effervescence: how group energy forms around a candidate
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I think the sociologist Durkheim first wrote about collective effervescence is that sense of energy and purpose you get in a group when you have a common goal together. And I do think that's what the Kamala Harris campaign has created for a lot of people who, you know, either thought Biden was too old or just weren't energized by his candidacy. (laughs) At the same time, you don't, you don't want to be a Pollyanna, as a leader.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Right.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, you want people to, to understand that you recognize the pain and the hardship you're, they're facing.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- 1:11 – 1:57
Why “hope” may be a better frame than “joy”
- AGAdam Grant
And that's why I would frame this much more as hope than joy.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
I think joy is about the, the energy-
- KSKara Swisher
Well, hope was taken by Obama, but go ahead. I mean, for-
- AGAdam Grant
Well, you could, you could say that, but-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
... I, I think in analyzing it, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
What we're really talking about is energy people have around a possible future.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Not about the present, right? Nobody's feeling joy, um, around this if, you know, if Trump wins.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
So I think that, you know, the fact that it's forward-looking means it's, it really is hope, not joy. Um, I think it's anticipatory. I think it's excitement about what's to come, and I do think that energizes people to vote, and I think... (laughs) You know, we, we have had a, a long political, I guess, streak of, you know, of politicians bashing and trashing each other.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
But I don't want to assume it always has to be that way. I, I look-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- 1:57 – 2:29
Positive campaigning example: Iceland’s curiosity-and-enthusiasm playbook
- AGAdam Grant
... for example, at the campaign that Halla Þómasdóttir ran in Iceland-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... for president recently, uh, where she won refusing to attack her opponents-
- KSKara Swisher
Uh-huh.
- AGAdam Grant
... running a campaign based on curiosity and hope and enthusiasm, and people resonated with that. Now, Iceland is a tiny country.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
But I, I wouldn't assume that America, which is often (laughs) regarded as the most enthusiastic country on Earth-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... um, couldn't operate that way too, and I guess, I guess we'll find out as people begin to turn out at the, the polls. What do you think, Kara?
- 2:29 – 3:21
Kara’s defense of joy: optimism worked for Reagan, Clinton, and Obama
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, you know, I think it, I think it'll work. I think it's fine. I don't know why they have to crap all over joy. It's like, they're like a skunk at a garden party. It's like-
- AGAdam Grant
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
... let 'em have it for a minute. I mean, it worked for Obama, it worked for Clinton, it works, it works... It worked for Reagan, right? Reagan was the original Morning in America guy, right? It's... And he was talking about the future. I think what, um... I think she has pretty definitely talked about problems, right? She just doesn't do them with a sense of shrug shoulders, right?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, or-
- KSKara Swisher
She's like, "Let's go forward."
- AGAdam Grant
... or worse, dread.
- KSKara Swisher
Dread, right. It's all... I think the Biden campaign... I was talking to someone in, uh, again this weekend, and when they go, "Democracy is on the ballot," I'm like, "Oh, no, really? I have to save democracy?" You know, you... I think it ov- it's overwhelming and, and it makes you grief-stricken.
- AGAdam Grant
Ironically, as dark as Trump was in 2016-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... "I alone can fix this," was the overwhelming message that a lot of people heard.
- 3:21 – 4:07
Leadership style and negativity: why Trump’s approach may be stuck
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that was a good... It was a strong man. "I can help you." "I can..." "I'm big daddy," kind of thing. Can he... How does he channel it into strategy and policy? Um, uh, what are some effective leadership qualities, positive and negative, you're seeing from both of them, from Kamala Harris and Trump? Um, you were posting about the study about, uh, looking at the negative impact of rudeness and disrespect on team performance in other fields. That's all he's got at this point. He d-... He hasn't been able to pivot to anything hopeful in any fashion. Talk a little bit about negative quali- qualities you're seeing for both of them, and positive.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I think, (sighs) I think one of the things that the, the Trump campaign was doing well was attacking Biden on age.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And they did not... It doesn't seem like they had much of a backup strategy-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- 4:07 – 5:32
The “weird” attack: reframing, persuasion, and why it lands
- AGAdam Grant
... once Harris took over, and they, they seem to be scrambling quite a bit now. Uh, if I were them, I would, (laughs) I would probably take a little bit o- of ownership over weird-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... and say, "Look, you know, America has always been weird."
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, weird has been a driver of innovation, has been, you know, a major source of fuel for disruption-
- KSKara Swisher
Huh. That's interesting.
- AGAdam Grant
... and I, I think there might be a missed opportunity there as it-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
... as opposed to trying to prove, "No, no, no. We're normal."
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Anyone who says they're not weird is weird. That's the thing. That's... I mean, anyone who's been to high school knows that one, right? Knows that trick. Um, so y- you would take over weird. They can't. They seem perpetually offended by it. It seems to have hit quite effectively.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, which, (sighs) which is, I think, surprising in some ways. I wonder if part of the reason it works is because it's not as heavy as the other attacks that have been tried.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, you know, everybody's exhausted by the felon, rapist-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... you know, immoral, right? (laughs) It's like, "Ugh."
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
This is just so much to think about, and-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
... it's also just not persuasive to people-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
... who are undecided or independent-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... 'cause if they thought that, they would've already decided not to vote for him.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Right. And so-
- AGAdam Grant
So I think there's a missed opportunity there.
- KSKara Swisher
What does the word... Why is that an effective word over deplorables seemed, seemed elitist and rude and...
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, it's also just... I think it's not as, um, it's not as judgmental.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, I think that (laughs) we, we all know weird people that we accept.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- 5:32 – 6:55
Everyday language as validation: “out of their damn minds”
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Got that. So one of the things she did, I thought, effectively, it seemed to work when she was listing a bunch of things they were doing, and then she's like, "They're out of their damn minds," the way she talked. H- how... Talk about that. That was effective, I think. Maybe it wasn't, but I felt it was 'cause it wasn't-
- AGAdam Grant
What did you think was effective about that? I'm curious.
- KSKara Swisher
'Cause I, 'cause I've heard regular people say it. Like, when someone... You're at work and your boss does something and you're like, "They're out of their damn mind." Like i- you can feel everybody feels good about talking like... And it doesn't feel really rude.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, it, uh... So it sounds like in part it's validating what some people are already feeling.... as-- and I think it's also, (laughs) at some level, I, I don't know, I don't know how far I would go with this, Kara, but part of me hears that language and thinks, "Okay. W- we're tired of all of this trying to reason through and rationalize-"
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
"... the, you know, the appeal of Trump, right?"
- KSKara Swisher
Right, ............................
- AGAdam Grant
How many articles were written in 2016 and 2017 about-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... "Well, actually, you know, it's, it's not X, Y, or Z thing that you hate. (laughs) It's, it's really, you know, people are feeling, you know, uh, that economic precarity and, you know, they feel seen by Trump." It's like, "No. Some of this is just ridiculous and unacceptable.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Let's not legitimate it."
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Yeah. So what is the, what is her best quality and the one you think is problematic for her, possibly problematic, and, and the same with him?
- 6:55 – 7:24
Harris’s strengths and vulnerabilities: momentum vs. undefined brand
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so I think her best quality right now, um, is momentum.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Fresh energy. Uh, I think that's-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
... that's what we're all riding on.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, I think her, her biggest challenge is a lot of people don't think they know what she stands for.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, they're either proxying Biden's policies as hers, or they're saying, "I, I don't really know what her principles are. I don't know-"
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
"... what she's gonna try to implement."
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, I call it Kamal-curious. But in a positive way.
- AGAdam Grant
(laughs) That's a great way to frame it.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- 7:24 – 7:56
A difficult policy tightrope: Harris’s Israel–Gaza messaging
- AGAdam Grant
Um, I, I do think she handled that really effectively in her speech when she talked about Israel's right to exist, but also how-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... you know, some of the Israeli government actions in, you know, uh, in Gaza were unacceptable.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And how Palestine has a right to self-determination too.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
I thought she walked that line very effectively in a way that, frankly, very few people have done.
- KSKara Swisher
It was f- you know, I, I took, I looked at it, and each s- sentence was strong, right? It was... so it felt like everybody was addressed, but it didn't feel like she was modulating wimpily, right?
- 7:56 – 9:51
Should Harris debate Trump? Risk, upside, and the “Bull Connor moment” theory
- AGAdam Grant
That- that's how I took it too, and I, I think those kinds of messages will probably be helpful in the next two months. I, I probably wouldn't debate Trump at this point. I think-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh. Well, he might not. He's trying ............................
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, he, it looks like he's waffling.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
But I don't see a lot of upside for her, do you?
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, I do. I do 'cause he, she could get him to say something terrible, like one more terrible thing.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, how, how many more do we need though?
- KSKara Swisher
I think she could get him to say something very terrible.
- AGAdam Grant
Do you really think... okay, let's assume she could do it.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Do you really think there's anything he could say at this point that would hurt his candidacy?
- KSKara Swisher
There are several words he could say about her and about people of color, yes. Yeah, e- everyone's talked about him saying those words, but him saying them in a public setting is a very different situation. It's super ugly. It's like Bull, Bull Connor. If, if he, if you could get him into a Bull Connor moment-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
... that would be effective. If he could say something terrible about women, not nasty woman, something worse, and he's called her worse names. Yeah, you could... yes, there are words ............................
- AGAdam Grant
And you think her ability to think on her feet and her prosecutor experience will allow her to debate him in a way that other people (laughs) have tried and failed?
- KSKara Swisher
Not so much... well, she's good at it. That's, that... she has the skills, certainly. But I think her, her very being offends him. I do think... what was interesting to me recently is he keeps attacking Walz, who doesn't matter, even though he's totally appealing, but he never attacks her like he attacks Walz. And I'm like, "Oh, you think you're running against Walz? It doesn't matter." Like, he's just an extra added cherry on the top of this happy fest, right? He's not... like, he matters, but he doesn't matter kinda thing.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I, I think part of his strategy is he throws a lot of things against the wall to see what sticks.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And (laughs) Walz is a new target.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Right? Kamala Harris is not entirely new. He's, he's been-
- KSKara Swisher
She is.
- AGAdam Grant
... dealing with her over the course of the Biden presidency.
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, okay. Let... give his negatives and positives very quickly.
- 9:51 – 10:35
Trump’s operational strengths and weaknesses: delegitimizing institutions vs. discipline
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, well, look, I think one thing that he's doing effectively, and it, you know, it bothers me to my core that this is effective, is he's continuing to delegitimate all the sources of credibility that would call into question his competence and his character, right? So, "You can't trust the media. They're fake news." It has created, I think, some lingering questions in the minds of people who would otherwise, in a different era have said-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... "You know what? We gotta move on. This guy is not qualified to lead."
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And what about negative qualities?
- AGAdam Grant
I think on the negative side, beyond what we've already talked about, I think he's, he seems to be even more undisciplined than he was before. Um, there isn't a semblance of a strategy right now and for somebody who's as effective at communicating on the fly as he is, you would expect a little bit more focus.
- 10:35 – 14:04
Biden stepping aside: escalation of commitment, groupthink, and telling powerful leaders the truth
- KSKara Swisher
And not rambling. Well, one of the things could be age, and it's interesting that the media is not covering his obvious cognitive deficits. Now, you wrote about President Biden, a column in New York Times back in July. Shortly before he stepped aside, you talked about how there was a group think happening with no one being honest about the reality of the situation. Um, this is pretty common in, uh, politics and business, particularly with a powerful or controlling leader. Um, what... h- how do you... h- first of all, what do you see is the best way to communicate and get people to see truth or reality? And tell me why you decided to write that. I thought... I was surprised and also thought it was terrific.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, thank you. Why were you surprised?
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, 'cause I... you don't seem to go... you're not a limbo-er, you know what I mean? Like, I can see George Clooney doing it, but... although I was surprised by George Clooney, actually. I was like, "Huh, this is-"
- AGAdam Grant
I was too.
- KSKara Swisher
"... this is gonna cost you." Right? Like, and, and calling... we, we got in... Scott and I got in trouble for saying he should step aside a lot. Um, so talk a little bit about why you did that and what's the best way to get out of group think happening. I just thought it was an interesting take on what was happening there.
- AGAdam Grant
All right, let... yeah, I'll start with the why. So, I don't think about this from a cost-benefit perspective. I think about it more in terms of (laughs) is, is this an issue where I have unique expertise-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
... to bring to the table?
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
And so, I, I don't w- weigh in on a lot of politics because I don't-
- KSKara Swisher
You don't, no.
- AGAdam Grant
I don't think, as a social scientist, I'm adding value there. But in this case, you know, he's making a leadership decision.
- KSKara Swisher
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, and I'm watching him, first of all, fall in the escalation of commitment trap where-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... like, he's throwing good money after bad and digging his heels in when he should be doing a, a clear-eyed analysis of, "What are my odds of winning?"
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
"And how much am I hurting the congressional races down the ticket?" Which took way too long to happen, in my view.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And so I thought, "Okay, there's an analysis waiting to be done there that actually brings (laughs) evidence from organizational psychology to the table. I have something to say here, and nobody else is talking about it."
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And then, you know, in terms of, of how to get out of that kind of situation, um, I think that, unfortunately,... what you need is, you know, a group of people who are committed to principles larger than, you know-
- KSKara Swisher
You.
- AGAdam Grant
... just appeasing the leader.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
So, you know, if I'm, if I'm talking to team Biden, you know, back in July, the first conversation I'm having with them is, "Is your goal to make Biden feel good about you and solidify that relationship, or is your goal for Trump to lose the election?"
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
(laughs) And if you focus on that latter goal, it becomes a lot easier to be candid.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
I think too many people are doing the c- political calculus, and this is what you see in the research on group think, is people ask, "Well, you know, is this gonna help me or hurt me?" And what you want is not a logic of consequences, as Jim March first put it, but a logic of appropriateness-
- 14:04 – 17:59
How to persuade a stubborn leader: legacy framing, pre-commitments, and dissent mechanisms
- KSKara Swisher
Many times. How, how, how do you get a leader to do that? Because, you know, here you are. You've finally gotten the presidency after all these years. You do have cognitive issues, right? You're, you're, like, stubborn b- as a personality before you were older, um, and it only, it only, you know, calcifies, I think, in people's... Their personalities calcify, essentially.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, my, my impression from talking to people who were close to Biden around this was that the legacy conversation was effective-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
... that getting him to think about how he wanted to be remembered and also-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... following in the footsteps of George Washington, who walked away from power-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... um, not wanting to take that third term when the people around him were encouraging him to do it.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
I think that precedent was very powerful. I think, you know, a lot of people focused on the loss message, which was not effective. Um, he did not want to believe that he was not the best person to beat Trump.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
And so reframing that as a gain, and, and this comes right out-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... of the evidence on how to get people to deescalate their commitment, um-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... was, was effective in, in getting him to say, "Okay, there's actually upside here, right? I can pass the torch."
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
"I can solidify my legacy. I can elevate the next generation. I can lift up a woman of color for a shot at the presidency."
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
I think those arguments landed, and that, that is very much what we see outside of the Oval Office is, if you're gonna have that kind of conversation with a leader in power, um, you, you have to help them recognize that they're compromised in their judgment, that they're obviously (laughs) gonna be looking for information that convinces them that they're gonna win and discounting-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
... anything that would-
- KSKara Swisher
Sure.
- AGAdam Grant
... lead them to lose.
- KSKara Swisher
Which is common.
- AGAdam Grant
So I would have gotten him to pre-commit, to say, "Okay, there, there are a group of people I trust," or, "There are a group of polls that I would be willing to trust, and if the polls, you know, hit a certain level, then yes, I will step aside."
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Now, that's difficult. I was just reading, there's a excerpt from a new book about, uh, the Twitter takeover, and a lot of it was about, uh, people who knew better, r- this was particularly around the Blue, uh, rollout, which wasn't gonna work, and a lot of us said this, like, "Come on," um, internally, that knew that, and continued... tried to say it and then couldn't. And there was all these people who had to cope with the leader, w- you know, w- who was different one-on-one versus in a group, where they had to feel dominant in a group. Some situations are impossible, correct? That you can't, 'cause it's their, you know, it's their pop stand, and so they're gonna do what they want.
- AGAdam Grant
It, it, it is frustrating how much of this rests on the shoulders of a leader, right? To, to not only ask for dissenting views, but to prove that they can handle the truth. If you have a leader that doesn't do that, (laughs) yeah, I think you're going out on a limb there. I think the first thing you could do is, you know, is just say, "I'm worried that people are not gonna be honest with you because they care a lot about your approval, and your opinion, you know, it has real weight around here. Can we do an anonymous poll?" And sometimes that's enough if the leader's open to it. Um, I think to your point, it's, uh, a lot easier to have trust one-on-one than it is in a large ch- group setting, and so I would try to catch the leader before or afterward. Uh, but easier said than done. You know, I think that, (laughs) that weak leaders shoot the messenger. I think that strong leaders praise the messenger, but truly great leaders promote the messenger, and I don't think we have enough leaders doing that.
- KSKara Swisher
No, not any, actually, in my experience (laughs) . I don't know. Anyway, um, it's really interesting. We'll see what happens. Um, I do think... One of the things I, I will say about Kamala Harris, h- having spent a lot of time with her, is she really does try to listen to a lot of opinions. I, I, I, I wa- I was always struck by that about her. She'd always have me in and say, "What's the worst thing here? What's the..." You know, very much like a lawyer would. Like, "What, what can I get hit with? What can I..." And it wasn't so much political. It was more like, "Challenge me, so I can make a better argument." It was interesting. She's a really interesting character.
- AGAdam Grant
That's encouraging.
Episode duration: 17:59
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