Kamala Harris and the Democrats are Running on Joy — Is That a Winning Strategy? | Pivot

Kara Swisher 0:00 Vice President Kamala Harris is moving into the next phase of her campaign with the Democratic National Convention now in the rear view mirror. The Harris campaign said over the weekend, it had now raised $540 million since launching last month, with $82 million coming during the convention. Nearly a third of those donations from the convention which, came from first time contributors. Um, I wanted... I, I, I started with the idea of joy that the Harris campaign and Democrats are leaning into heavily. Uh, we heard it mentioned in a number of convention speeches last week. Talk a little bit about i-... What do you think about the politics of joy? You've written in the past about the power of collective effervescence, which is kind of a cooler way to say it, but joy is an easier word, three, just three letters.

Adam Grant 0:38 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 0:38 Essentially group happiness that was esce-... that was especially powerful post-COVID. Can you talk a little bit about this?

Adam Grant 0:44 Yeah. I think the sociologist Durkheim first wrote about collective effervescence is that sense of energy and purpose you get in a group when you have a common goal together. And I do think that's what the Kamala Harris campaign has created for a lot of people who, you know, either thought Biden was too old or just weren't energized by his candidacy. (laughs) At the same time, you don't, you don't want to be a Pollyanna, as a leader.

Kara Swisher 1:06 Mm-hmm. Right.

Adam Grant 1:07 Um, you want people to, to understand that you recognize the pain and the hardship you're, they're facing.

Kara Swisher 1:11 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 1:11 And that's why I would frame this much more as hope than joy.

Kara Swisher 1:14 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 1:14 I think joy is about the, the energy-

Kara Swisher 1:16 Well, hope was taken by Obama, but go ahead. I mean, for-

Adam Grant 1:18 Well, you could, you could say that, but-

Kara Swisher 1:20 Right.

Adam Grant 1:20 ... I, I think in analyzing it, right?

Kara Swisher 1:22 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 1:22 What we're really talking about is energy people have around a possible future.

Kara Swisher 1:26 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 1:26 Not about the present, right? Nobody's feeling joy, um, around this if, you know, if Trump wins.

Kara Swisher 1:32 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 1:33 So I think that, you know, the fact that it's forward-looking means it's, it really is hope, not joy. Um, I think it's anticipatory. I think it's excitement about what's to come, and I do think that energizes people to vote, and I think... (laughs) You know, we, we have had a, a long political, I guess, streak of, you know, of politicians bashing and trashing each other.

Kara Swisher 1:53 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 1:54 But I don't want to assume it always has to be that way. I, I look-

Kara Swisher 1:57 Right.

Adam Grant 1:57 ... for example, at the campaign that Halla Þómasdóttir ran in Iceland-

Kara Swisher 2:01 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 2:01 ... for president recently, uh, where she won refusing to attack her opponents-

Kara Swisher 2:06 Uh-huh.

Adam Grant 2:06 ... running a campaign based on curiosity and hope and enthusiasm, and people resonated with that. Now, Iceland is a tiny country.

Kara Swisher 2:15 Right.

Adam Grant 2:15 But I, I wouldn't assume that America, which is often (laughs) regarded as the most enthusiastic country on Earth-

Kara Swisher 2:22 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 2:22 ... um, couldn't operate that way too, and I guess, I guess we'll find out as people begin to turn out at the, the polls. What do you think, Kara?

Kara Swisher 2:29 Uh, you know, I think it, I think it'll work. I think it's fine. I don't know why they have to crap all over joy. It's like, they're like a skunk at a garden party. It's like-

Adam Grant 2:36 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 2:36 ... let 'em have it for a minute. I mean, it worked for Obama, it worked for Clinton, it works, it works... It worked for Reagan, right? Reagan was the original Morning in America guy, right? It's... And he was talking about the future. I think what, um... I think she has pretty definitely talked about problems, right? She just doesn't do them with a sense of shrug shoulders, right?

Adam Grant 2:56 Yeah, or-

Kara Swisher 2:57 She's like, "Let's go forward."

Adam Grant 2:57 ... or worse, dread.

Kara Swisher 2:59 Dread, right. It's all... I think the Biden campaign... I was talking to someone in, uh, again this weekend, and when they go, "Democracy is on the ballot," I'm like, "Oh, no, really? I have to save democracy?" You know, you... I think it ov- it's overwhelming and, and it makes you grief-stricken.

Adam Grant 3:14 Ironically, as dark as Trump was in 2016-

Kara Swisher 3:17 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 3:17 ... "I alone can fix this," was the overwhelming message that a lot of people heard.

Kara Swisher 3:21 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that was a good... It was a strong man. "I can help you." "I can..." "I'm big daddy," kind of thing. Can he... How does he channel it into strategy and policy? Um, uh, what are some effective leadership qualities, positive and negative, you're seeing from both of them, from Kamala Harris and Trump? Um, you were posting about the study about, uh, looking at the negative impact of rudeness and disrespect on team performance in other fields. That's all he's got at this point. He d-... He hasn't been able to pivot to anything hopeful in any fashion. Talk a little bit about negative quali- qualities you're seeing for both of them, and positive.

Adam Grant 3:57 Well, I think, (sighs) I think one of the things that the, the Trump campaign was doing well was attacking Biden on age.

Kara Swisher 4:02 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 4:03 And they did not... It doesn't seem like they had much of a backup strategy-

Kara Swisher 4:06 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 4:07 ... once Harris took over, and they, they seem to be scrambling quite a bit now. Uh, if I were them, I would, (laughs) I would probably take a little bit o- of ownership over weird-

Kara Swisher 4:15 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 4:15 ... and say, "Look, you know, America has always been weird."

Kara Swisher 4:18 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 4:18 Um, weird has been a driver of innovation, has been, you know, a major source of fuel for disruption-

Kara Swisher 4:24 Huh. That's interesting.

Adam Grant 4:24 ... and I, I think there might be a missed opportunity there as it-

Kara Swisher 4:26 Yeah.

Adam Grant 4:26 ... as opposed to trying to prove, "No, no, no. We're normal."

Kara Swisher 4:30 Yeah. Anyone who says they're not weird is weird. That's the thing. That's... I mean, anyone who's been to high school knows that one, right? Knows that trick. Um, so y- you would take over weird. They can't. They seem perpetually offended by it. It seems to have hit quite effectively.

Adam Grant 4:43 Yeah, which, (sighs) which is, I think, surprising in some ways. I wonder if part of the reason it works is because it's not as heavy as the other attacks that have been tried.

Kara Swisher 4:51 Right.

Adam Grant 4:51 Um, you know, everybody's exhausted by the felon, rapist-

Kara Swisher 4:55 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 4:55 ... you know, immoral, right? (laughs) It's like, "Ugh."

Kara Swisher 4:57 Right. Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 4:57 This is just so much to think about, and-

Kara Swisher 4:59 Right.

Adam Grant 5:00 ... it's also just not persuasive to people-

Kara Swisher 5:02 Right.

Adam Grant 5:02 ... who are undecided or independent-

Kara Swisher 5:04 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 5:04 ... 'cause if they thought that, they would've already decided not to vote for him.

Kara Swisher 5:07 Right. Right. And so-

Adam Grant 5:09 So I think there's a missed opportunity there.

Kara Swisher 5:10 What does the word... Why is that an effective word over deplorables seemed, seemed elitist and rude and...

Adam Grant 5:18 Yeah, it's also just... I think it's not as, um, it's not as judgmental.

Kara Swisher 5:21 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 5:22 Um, I think that (laughs) we, we all know weird people that we accept.

Kara Swisher 5:27 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 5:27 Uh, so it's a way of, of saying, "Hey, you're not like us," without saying, you know, "You're less than us."

Kara Swisher 5:32 Right. Got that. So one of the things she did, I thought, effectively, it seemed to work when she was listing a bunch of things they were doing, and then she's like, "They're out of their damn minds," the way she talked. H- how... Talk about that. That was effective, I think. Maybe it wasn't, but I felt it was 'cause it wasn't-

Adam Grant 5:46 What did you think was effective about that? I'm curious.

Kara Swisher 5:48 'Cause I, 'cause I've heard regular people say it. Like, when someone... You're at work and your boss does something and you're like, "They're out of their damn mind." Like i- you can feel everybody feels good about talking like... And it doesn't feel really rude.

Adam Grant 6:01 Yeah, it, uh... So it sounds like in part it's validating what some people are already feeling.... as-- and I think it's also, (laughs) at some level, I, I don't know, I don't know how far I would go with this, Kara, but part of me hears that language and thinks, "Okay. W- we're tired of all of this trying to reason through and rationalize-"

Kara Swisher 6:24 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 6:24 "... the, you know, the appeal of Trump, right?"

Kara Swisher 6:26 Right, ............................

Adam Grant 6:26 How many articles were written in 2016 and 2017 about-

Kara Swisher 6:30 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 6:30 ... "Well, actually, you know, it's, it's not X, Y, or Z thing that you hate. (laughs) It's, it's really, you know, people are feeling, you know, uh, that economic precarity and, you know, they feel seen by Trump." It's like, "No. Some of this is just ridiculous and unacceptable.

Kara Swisher 6:46 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 6:46 Let's not legitimate it."

Kara Swisher 6:47 Right. Yeah. So what is the, what is her best quality and the one you think is problematic for her, possibly problematic, and, and the same with him?

Adam Grant 6:55 Okay, so I think her best quality right now, um, is momentum.

Kara Swisher 7:00 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 7:01 Fresh energy. Uh, I think that's-

Kara Swisher 7:04 Yeah.

Adam Grant 7:04 ... that's what we're all riding on.

Kara Swisher 7:05 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 7:06 Uh, I think her, her biggest challenge is a lot of people don't think they know what she stands for.

Kara Swisher 7:11 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 7:11 Uh, they're either proxying Biden's policies as hers, or they're saying, "I, I don't really know what her principles are. I don't know-"

Kara Swisher 7:18 Yeah.

Adam Grant 7:18 "... what she's gonna try to implement."

Kara Swisher 7:19 Yeah, I call it Kamal-curious. But in a positive way.

Adam Grant 7:22 (laughs) That's a great way to frame it.

Kara Swisher 7:24 Yeah.

Adam Grant 7:24 Um, I, I do think she handled that really effectively in her speech when she talked about Israel's right to exist, but also how-

Kara Swisher 7:32 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 7:32 ... you know, some of the Israeli government actions in, you know, uh, in Gaza were unacceptable.

Kara Swisher 7:37 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 7:37 And how Palestine has a right to self-determination too.

Kara Swisher 7:40 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 7:40 I thought she walked that line very effectively in a way that, frankly, very few people have done.

Kara Swisher 7:45 It was f- you know, I, I took, I looked at it, and each s- sentence was strong, right? It was... so it felt like everybody was addressed, but it didn't feel like she was modulating wimpily, right?

Adam Grant 7:56 That- that's how I took it too, and I, I think those kinds of messages will probably be helpful in the next two months. I, I probably wouldn't debate Trump at this point. I think-

Kara Swisher 8:05 Oh. Well, he might not. He's trying ............................

Adam Grant 8:06 Yeah, he, it looks like he's waffling.

Kara Swisher 8:08 Yeah.

Adam Grant 8:09 But I don't see a lot of upside for her, do you?

Kara Swisher 8:11 Uh, I do. I do 'cause he, she could get him to say something terrible, like one more terrible thing.

Adam Grant 8:17 I mean, how, how many more do we need though?

Kara Swisher 8:19 I think she could get him to say something very terrible.

Adam Grant 8:22 Do you really think... okay, let's assume she could do it.

Kara Swisher 8:25 Yeah.

Adam Grant 8:25 Do you really think there's anything he could say at this point that would hurt his candidacy?

Kara Swisher 8:31 There are several words he could say about her and about people of color, yes. Yeah, e- everyone's talked about him saying those words, but him saying them in a public setting is a very different situation. It's super ugly. It's like Bull, Bull Connor. If, if he, if you could get him into a Bull Connor moment-

Adam Grant 8:48 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 8:48 ... that would be effective. If he could say something terrible about women, not nasty woman, something worse, and he's called her worse names. Yeah, you could... yes, there are words ............................

Adam Grant 8:59 And you think her ability to think on her feet and her prosecutor experience will allow her to debate him in a way that other people (laughs) have tried and failed?

Kara Swisher 9:07 Not so much... well, she's good at it. That's, that... she has the skills, certainly. But I think her, her very being offends him. I do think... what was interesting to me recently is he keeps attacking Walz, who doesn't matter, even though he's totally appealing, but he never attacks her like he attacks Walz. And I'm like, "Oh, you think you're running against Walz? It doesn't matter." Like, he's just an extra added cherry on the top of this happy fest, right? He's not... like, he matters, but he doesn't matter kinda thing.

Adam Grant 9:34 Yeah, I, I think part of his strategy is he throws a lot of things against the wall to see what sticks.

Kara Swisher 9:40 Yeah.

Adam Grant 9:40 And (laughs) Walz is a new target.

Kara Swisher 9:42 Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Grant 9:42 Right? Kamala Harris is not entirely new. He's, he's been-

Kara Swisher 9:45 She is.

Adam Grant 9:45 ... dealing with her over the course of the Biden presidency.

Kara Swisher 9:48 Uh, okay. Let... give his negatives and positives very quickly.

Adam Grant 9:51 Yeah, well, look, I think one thing that he's doing effectively, and it, you know, it bothers me to my core that this is effective, is he's continuing to delegitimate all the sources of credibility that would call into question his competence and his character, right? So, "You can't trust the media. They're fake news." It has created, I think, some lingering questions in the minds of people who would otherwise, in a different era have said-

Kara Swisher 10:12 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 10:13 ... "You know what? We gotta move on. This guy is not qualified to lead."

Kara Swisher 10:16 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And what about negative qualities?

Adam Grant 10:19 I think on the negative side, beyond what we've already talked about, I think he's, he seems to be even more undisciplined than he was before. Um, there isn't a semblance of a strategy right now and for somebody who's as effective at communicating on the fly as he is, you would expect a little bit more focus.

Kara Swisher 10:35 And not rambling. Well, one of the things could be age, and it's interesting that the media is not covering his obvious cognitive deficits. Now, you wrote about President Biden, a column in New York Times back in July. Shortly before he stepped aside, you talked about how there was a group think happening with no one being honest about the reality of the situation. Um, this is pretty common in, uh, politics and business, particularly with a powerful or controlling leader. Um, what... h- how do you... h- first of all, what do you see is the best way to communicate and get people to see truth or reality? And tell me why you decided to write that. I thought... I was surprised and also thought it was terrific.

Adam Grant 11:08 Oh, thank you. Why were you surprised?

Kara Swisher 11:10 Uh, 'cause I... you don't seem to go... you're not a limbo-er, you know what I mean? Like, I can see George Clooney doing it, but... although I was surprised by George Clooney, actually. I was like, "Huh, this is-"

Adam Grant 11:18 I was too.

Kara Swisher 11:19 "... this is gonna cost you." Right? Like, and, and calling... we, we got in... Scott and I got in trouble for saying he should step aside a lot. Um, so talk a little bit about why you did that and what's the best way to get out of group think happening. I just thought it was an interesting take on what was happening there.

Adam Grant 11:35 All right, let... yeah, I'll start with the why. So, I don't think about this from a cost-benefit perspective. I think about it more in terms of (laughs) is, is this an issue where I have unique expertise-

Kara Swisher 11:44 Yeah.

Adam Grant 11:44 ... to bring to the table?

Kara Swisher 11:45 Right.

Adam Grant 11:45 And so, I, I don't w- weigh in on a lot of politics because I don't-

Kara Swisher 11:48 You don't, no.

Adam Grant 11:49 I don't think, as a social scientist, I'm adding value there. But in this case, you know, he's making a leadership decision.

Kara Swisher 11:55 Yes.

Adam Grant 11:55 Um, and I'm watching him, first of all, fall in the escalation of commitment trap where-

Kara Swisher 11:59 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 11:59 ... like, he's throwing good money after bad and digging his heels in when he should be doing a, a clear-eyed analysis of, "What are my odds of winning?"

Kara Swisher 12:07 Right.

Adam Grant 12:07 "And how much am I hurting the congressional races down the ticket?" Which took way too long to happen, in my view.

Kara Swisher 12:13 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 12:13 And so I thought, "Okay, there's an analysis waiting to be done there that actually brings (laughs) evidence from organizational psychology to the table. I have something to say here, and nobody else is talking about it."

Kara Swisher 12:21 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 12:22 And then, you know, in terms of, of how to get out of that kind of situation, um, I think that, unfortunately,... what you need is, you know, a group of people who are committed to principles larger than, you know-

Kara Swisher 12:33 You.

Adam Grant 12:33 ... just appeasing the leader.

Kara Swisher 12:35 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 12:35 So, you know, if I'm, if I'm talking to team Biden, you know, back in July, the first conversation I'm having with them is, "Is your goal to make Biden feel good about you and solidify that relationship, or is your goal for Trump to lose the election?"

Kara Swisher 12:50 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 12:50 (laughs) And if you focus on that latter goal, it becomes a lot easier to be candid.

Kara Swisher 12:55 Right.

Adam Grant 12:56 I think too many people are doing the c- political calculus, and this is what you see in the research on group think, is people ask, "Well, you know, is this gonna help me or hurt me?" And what you want is not a logic of consequences, as Jim March first put it, but a logic of appropriateness-

Kara Swisher 13:10 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 13:10 ... of, "What should a person like me do in a situation like this?"

Kara Swisher 13:13 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 13:13 "What's the right thing to do?" And there's no question there. The right thing to do is to challenge him and get him to recognize the very real possibility that (laughs) he's, he's basically driving a sinking ship.

Kara Swisher 13:24 So, only one person did that very effectively, Nancy Pelosi, and she said it. She goes, "My goal is to defeat Trump." And, uh, unfortunately, our relationship is the, you know, the collateral damage essentially.

Adam Grant 13:36 Uh, you had a great conversation with Nancy Pelosi about that.

Kara Swisher 13:39 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 13:39 I think she was the only person who did it effectively publicly.

Kara Swisher 13:42 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 13:43 I, I heard from a bunch of people who had private conversations with Biden. (laughs) I-

Kara Swisher 13:46 (laughs)

Adam Grant 13:46 ... even got one note from somebody who said, "I used your article as a template for how to talk to him."

Kara Swisher 13:52 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 13:52 (laughs) And I said, "You could have just called me. We know each other."

Kara Swisher 13:55 Yeah.

Adam Grant 13:55 But they wouldn't have called me.

Kara Swisher 13:57 Right.

Adam Grant 13:57 And I had to write to them in the pages of The New York Times, which was-

Kara Swisher 14:00 Right.

Adam Grant 14:01 ... an aha moment for me, but I guess you've experienced that many times.

Kara Swisher 14:04 Many times. How, how, how do you get a leader to do that? Because, you know, here you are. You've finally gotten the presidency after all these years. You do have cognitive issues, right? You're, you're, like, stubborn b- as a personality before you were older, um, and it only, it only, you know, calcifies, I think, in people's... Their personalities calcify, essentially.

Adam Grant 14:24 Yeah, my, my impression from talking to people who were close to Biden around this was that the legacy conversation was effective-

Kara Swisher 14:31 Yeah.

Adam Grant 14:31 ... that getting him to think about how he wanted to be remembered and also-

Kara Swisher 14:34 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 14:34 ... following in the footsteps of George Washington, who walked away from power-

Kara Swisher 14:38 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 14:38 ... um, not wanting to take that third term when the people around him were encouraging him to do it.

Kara Swisher 14:42 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 14:42 I think that precedent was very powerful. I think, you know, a lot of people focused on the loss message, which was not effective. Um, he did not want to believe that he was not the best person to beat Trump.

Kara Swisher 14:53 Right.

Adam Grant 14:53 And so reframing that as a gain, and, and this comes right out-

Kara Swisher 14:56 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 14:56 ... of the evidence on how to get people to deescalate their commitment, um-

Kara Swisher 14:59 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 14:59 ... was, was effective in, in getting him to say, "Okay, there's actually upside here, right? I can pass the torch."

Kara Swisher 15:04 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 15:04 "I can solidify my legacy. I can elevate the next generation. I can lift up a woman of color for a shot at the presidency."

Kara Swisher 15:11 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 15:11 I think those arguments landed, and that, that is very much what we see outside of the Oval Office is, if you're gonna have that kind of conversation with a leader in power, um, you, you have to help them recognize that they're compromised in their judgment, that they're obviously (laughs) gonna be looking for information that convinces them that they're gonna win and discounting-

Kara Swisher 15:29 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 15:29 ... anything that would-

Kara Swisher 15:30 Sure.

Adam Grant 15:30 ... lead them to lose.

Kara Swisher 15:31 Which is common.

Adam Grant 15:31 So I would have gotten him to pre-commit, to say, "Okay, there, there are a group of people I trust," or, "There are a group of polls that I would be willing to trust, and if the polls, you know, hit a certain level, then yes, I will step aside."

Kara Swisher 15:43 Right. Now, that's difficult. I was just reading, there's a excerpt from a new book about, uh, the Twitter takeover, and a lot of it was about, uh, people who knew better, r- this was particularly around the Blue, uh, rollout, which wasn't gonna work, and a lot of us said this, like, "Come on," um, internally, that knew that, and continued... tried to say it and then couldn't. And there was all these people who had to cope with the leader, w- you know, w- who was different one-on-one versus in a group, where they had to feel dominant in a group. Some situations are impossible, correct? That you can't, 'cause it's their, you know, it's their pop stand, and so they're gonna do what they want.

Adam Grant 16:19 It, it, it is frustrating how much of this rests on the shoulders of a leader, right? To, to not only ask for dissenting views, but to prove that they can handle the truth. If you have a leader that doesn't do that, (laughs) yeah, I think you're going out on a limb there. I think the first thing you could do is, you know, is just say, "I'm worried that people are not gonna be honest with you because they care a lot about your approval, and your opinion, you know, it has real weight around here. Can we do an anonymous poll?" And sometimes that's enough if the leader's open to it. Um, I think to your point, it's, uh, a lot easier to have trust one-on-one than it is in a large ch- group setting, and so I would try to catch the leader before or afterward. Uh, but easier said than done. You know, I think that, (laughs) that weak leaders shoot the messenger. I think that strong leaders praise the messenger, but truly great leaders promote the messenger, and I don't think we have enough leaders doing that.

Kara Swisher 17:09 No, not any, actually, in my experience (laughs) . I don't know. Anyway, um, it's really interesting. We'll see what happens. Um, I do think... One of the things I, I will say about Kamala Harris, h- having spent a lot of time with her, is she really does try to listen to a lot of opinions. I, I, I, I wa- I was always struck by that about her. She'd always have me in and say, "What's the worst thing here? What's the..." You know, very much like a lawyer would. Like, "What, what can I get hit with? What can I..." And it wasn't so much political. It was more like, "Challenge me, so I can make a better argument." It was interesting. She's a really interesting character.

Adam Grant 17:38 That's encouraging.

Kara Swisher 17:39 Yeah, it was. It was. And it w- I was always like, "Oh, you're fucked on that one," you know?

Adam Grant 17:43 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 17:43 And she welcomed it. And she... I didn't say she welcomed it, but she, she wasn't pretending it wasn't true. Anyway, um, that's, that's what good... I think that's what good leaders do, collect all kind... and then make a decision even if it's wrong.