Kara and Scott Take Questions from Pivot Fans

Kara Swisher 0:00 Get excited, Scott, because we're doing things a little differently today. It's a special show with Pivot listeners calling in and asking us their questions on all sorts of topics. We're gonna meet the people, Scott! The people!

Scott Galloway 0:13 I don't like surprises. At 49, I could slip and break a hip when you do this to me.

Kara Swisher 0:16 (laughs) I think you're gonna love it. Our first listener call ever, so this is a very exciting thing. Sean, welcome!

Sean (caller) 0:23 Well, hi, Kara and Scott. Thanks for having me on. Um, I'll try to set the bar as low as possible-

Kara Swisher 0:30 (laughs) Oh, okay.

Sean (caller) 0:31 ... for any subsequent, uh, listeners who are asking questions, uh, so they don't have a tough act to follow. Um, so I'm a longtime listener-

Kara Swisher 0:38 Uh-huh.

Sean (caller) 0:38 ... and I'm an attorney.

Kara Swisher 0:39 Uh-huh.

Sean (caller) 0:39 And, uh, I, I worked in private practice as a litigator for a while.

Kara Swisher 0:43 Uh-huh.

Sean (caller) 0:43 And the past few years, I've worked in the public sector.

Kara Swisher 0:46 Uh-huh.

Sean (caller) 0:46 Um, I've got a question about your favorite 3D-

Kara Swisher 0:49 Can I ask you a number-

Sean (caller) 0:50 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 0:50 ... of questions? Are, are-

Sean (caller) 0:51 Sure.

Kara Swisher 0:51 Do you, do you like the penis jokes? No, not that one totally. Don't.

Sean (caller) 0:53 (laughs) Uh, I appreciate Scott's humor, but I feel like now being on the podcast, I'll be unemployable for the foreseeable future. So-

Scott Galloway 1:01 Well, that's what we like to do-

Sean (caller) 1:02 ... uh, I appreciate it.

Scott Galloway 1:02 ... here. We like to ruin careers.

Scott Galloway 1:04 (laughs)

Sean (caller) 1:04 Yeah. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:04 Thank you, Sean. Let's listen to your question. Let's listen to your question.

Sean (caller) 1:08 So it's about, it's about Elon, and it's something of a legal question, but it's way outside of my-

Kara Swisher 1:13 Who?

Sean (caller) 1:13 ... area.

Kara Swisher 1:13 Who? Who is it a... Who?

Sean (caller) 1:14 Elon.

Kara Swisher 1:15 Who? We, we've never heard of him, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 1:16 Yeah. Never, yeah, you don't talk about him on this show.

Kara Swisher 1:18 No.

Scott Galloway 1:18 No, not a lot.

Kara Swisher 1:19 No, no.

Scott Galloway 1:19 Um...

Sean (caller) 1:20 But it's outside of my area of expertise-

Scott Galloway 1:21 Second-biggest complaint, by the way-

Kara Swisher 1:23 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:23 ... is we talk a bit too much about Elon.

Sean (caller) 1:25 Uh, so here's my question. Uh, in buying the platform, Elon's turned himself into the main character on Twitter, uh, and he's repeatedly posted controversial tweets. Uh, in multiple instances, Elon's tweets have had a negative impact on the financial interests of X, uh, not to mention Tesla. Um, so what I wanna know, uh, you know, if you guys have any insight into this, particularly you, Scott, since you've served on boards, uh, over the years. Is there some reason, legal, practical, or otherwise, that no shareholder has pursued legal action against Elon asserting that his tweets, uh, have constituted a breach of his fiduciary duties? And I'm putting that, uh, unsuccessful 420 lawsuit from a few years back in a separate bucket because it involved alleged fraudulent misrepresentations about the company itself, whereas some of his other tweets are just lightning rods for controversie- controversy that cause the stock price to dip. Um, so I'm wondering if you guys have any insight on

Sean (caller) 2:27 that.

Kara Swisher 2:27 Well, can... Before Scott starts, there are some shareholder lawsuits around how he beha- And, and his behavior is noted in them, in several of them, um, happening at various times. He's won quite a few of them, um, uh, so it... That... Including that one w- with the shareholders, but there are a number of shareholder, um, actions happening, but go ahead, s- uh, Scott. Why don't you talk about being on a board, because I haven't been?

Scott Galloway 2:51 Well, well, you have to d- distinguish between a private and a public company. A public company is fertile hunting ground for plaintiff's attorneys who when they see anything resembling, um, behavior that they think is bad for shareholders, they can initiate a class action suit. And typically in a board meeting, you get a list of all the legal actions, and they're, they're numerous, employees, uh, you know, all sorts of stuff. And plaintiff's attorneys, while they play a really important role as sort of a check on corporate America, there are quite a few of them who the ecosystem is file a suit, and many companies will just settle. And there's incentive to file a lot of suits against companies that don't see, you know, the, the distraction and the potential downside is worth it, and so they'll just settle. He's, he's probably... When you're talking about X now, that it's a private company with what is a relatively finite number of shareholders, it's unlikely they filed suit because they're all his buddies, and as far as I can tell, the only reason they initially invested was hope that they would curry favor with him and have the opportunity to invest in the follow-on round of SpaceX or take, be one of the book runners, you know, be the... You know, uh, Sequoia I can't imagine consciously made a rational decision in isolation to put whatever it was, a couple hundred million dollars into X. But they think this is an ecosystem, "We wanna be involved in all of his other ventures. We wanna have an opportunity to

Scott Galloway 4:19 participate."

Kara Swisher 4:20 It's a vig.

Sean (caller) 4:21 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 4:21 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 4:21 It's essentially a vig to hang-

Scott Galloway 4:23 And, and-

Kara Swisher 4:23 ... with the Elon, Elon.

Scott Galloway 4:23 In, in the Musk sphere.

Sean (caller) 4:24 Sit at the table.

Kara Swisher 4:24 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 4:25 What, what's unusual though is it relates to what I have never seen, I don't think anyone's seen a governance. Earlier this week, he essentially took to Twitter to demand that he would get 25% voting control, and I think he knew that that would be impossible for a post-public company 'cause he would be retroactively trying to create a new class of sho- stock that had super majority voting control. I think he knew that wasn't possible, so the only way to get there would be to increase his stake and award him options that would get him to that 25% mark. He has options that if he exercises now take him from 13% to 17%. I have never seen a CEO... I've been on boards where CEOs stamp their feet and threaten to leave over their compensation. I've never seen a CEO take to Twitter and threaten the company publicly or threaten the board unless he gets another $70 billion in compensation, but he is effectively a walking plaintiff's attorney dream. But he's created so much shareholder value, and I, and Sean, uh, after Kara responds, I'd love to get your thoughts here.

Kara Swisher 5:27 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 5:27 My, my sense is he sees the legal expenses as a, as a, uh, uh, an expense of doing business the way he does business. He invites them. He knows they're gonna come, but the dollars are so enormous here that he'd rather be aggressive, raise his profile even at the risk of shareholder lawsuits. Kara, what do you think?

Kara Swisher 5:46 Yeah. I, you know, I think a lot of CEOs do this privately, right? Sort of hold up a board-

Scott Galloway 5:50 100%.

Kara Swisher 5:50 ... or threaten and things like that, and so he's just doing it publicly 'cause he's that guy 'cause he gets to be that kind of asshole. But he, um... What's interesting is as Scott said, a lot of tech companies have these dual, uh, class shareholders, and he k- he didn't do it at the time Tesla was created and probably wishes he had.

Scott Galloway 6:08 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 6:08 But it's not... They can't do it now. They can't do it now. Now what's interesting about this is he's essentially saying, "I will withhold my, my leadership, right, from you unless, um..."... unless you do this, right? That's what he's saying. I will not help you in the future. I won't help with AI. Even though he's touted the company as an AI company and a robotics company, which it has very advanced robotics, it has very advanced AI. I'm not gonna help you make wealth anymore until you pony up this money. Now, the pro- other problem, besides the fact that it can't make a dual-class structure, which I think would be to his liking, but it doesn't matter. He effectively runs the board. The board doesn't-

Scott Galloway 6:45 That's right.

Kara Swisher 6:45 ... is not a, is not a, an independent board in any way, or doesn't behave like an independent board. Um, he faced... There's a lawsuit over his compensation package-

Scott Galloway 6:54 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 6:54 ... actually going on. A shareholder, um, you know, uh, that, that said his compensation package was outsize, um, and it didn't require him to work full-time, um, and so, uh, so he... So, th- th- there's... You know, he's, he's complimented the Twitter board, um, ih- but it's not a good look. It looks like he's sort of blackmailing the board. That's what it looks like. Um, although he said they like it. Like a, it's sort of like a, um, like a, an, uh, an abused spouse.

Sean (caller) 7:25 Stockholm syndrome. What, wh-

Kara Swisher 7:26 Yeah, well-

Scott Galloway 7:27 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 7:28 ... I don't think they like it. I, I get the impression they don't, they don't have a choice with this guy.

Scott Galloway 7:31 What are your thoughts, Sean?

Kara Swisher 7:32 And so-

Scott Galloway 7:32 You're, you're the one who passed the bar. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Kara.

Kara Swisher 7:32 Let me just finish. Let me just say one more thing. They can't do anything until this... It will make this lawsuit win if the board doesn't do... If they suddenly award him this-

Scott Galloway 7:43 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 7:43 ... because that's precisely what the lawsuit is saying. So go ahead.

Sean (caller) 7:47 Yeah, I mean, I think, um, first of all they, they moved their corporate, uh, base from, uh... They, they were previously incorporated in Delaware-

Scott Galloway 7:55 Mm-hmm.

Sean (caller) 7:55 ... and they moved to Nevada.

Kara Swisher 7:56 Mm-hmm.

Sean (caller) 7:56 Um, and you know when you bring these, uh, shareholder lawsuits, I think that's one consideration, and the laws, uh, where they're incorporated. I think Nevada might have a- an intent requirement for these breach of fiduciary duty lawsuits. Like as opposed to just careless behavior. You know, there might be some, some intent requirement. And I think, you know, Scott makes a really good point about how the people who were in bed with him at this point, um-

Kara Swisher 8:20 Yeah.

Sean (caller) 8:20 ... you know. Uh, they, they... Not only did they know what they were getting into, but th- they wanted, they wanted that. They wanted that access. So, so that, that makes sense to me. But o- on the, his recent tweets, Kara, you brought up the fact that-

Kara Swisher 8:34 Mm-hmm.

Sean (caller) 8:34 ... uh, you know, sort of the AI aspect of this.

Kara Swisher 8:36 Mm-hmm.

Sean (caller) 8:36 When I read that story, he, he wasn't just saying, you know, "I, I'm not gonna work, uh, o- on some of these AI issues." I think he was at least implying-

Kara Swisher 8:45 Threatening.

Sean (caller) 8:45 ... that he was gonna do it elsewhere.

Scott Galloway 8:46 Yeah, take it elsewhere.

Kara Swisher 8:47 Yeah.

Sean (caller) 8:47 You know? Right?

Kara Swisher 8:48 Yeah.

Sean (caller) 8:48 And, and does that change... Does that change the calculus a little bit? Um, you know, he's not just saying he's not gonna do X, he's, he's saying, "I'm gonna essentially perhaps compete with you, um, to his own company."

Kara Swisher 8:59 Yeah. Other, other people... I don't know if he has a non-compete. I don't kn- I, I have no idea. But I, I assume there is a, uh, issue here because there's IP too, right? If he takes people, if he takes... You know, other people... The g- guy at Google got in trouble for going over to Uber, right? Um, there's all kinds of law about this, and I think that's what's interesting. He's essentially blackmailing them and they... The issue is, will they do anything about it? And so far, this board has done nothing. Now, that opens them up to liability. But from talking to them, I don't think they feel like they have any, uh, power, you know? I think they feel like they have no... And he's just... Now he's just doing it right to their face. It's not unlike what Trump does to the GOP. It's like, you know, "I'm just gonna primary you."

Scott Galloway 9:43 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 9:43 That's what he's saying from a business point of view. And so th- he puts them in a terrible position, and they cannot, uh, like it. Um, and so, you know, I don't, I don't... This guy breaks rules all the time, and sometimes it's good and interesting, and sometimes it's just... Just, he just has decided not to play by any rules that anybody else has. Um, and again, just like Trump in the court. Who yells in court at the judge and, and makes faces and... But he did l- yesterday, and he's still s- not in contempt. Um, so I don't know. I don't know. I will see what happens, but both Scott and I, and I don't know if you think this, think this board is just a, uh, is a, is a paper tiger. Not even a tiger. What is it? A paper-

Scott Galloway 10:24 Paper mache.

Kara Swisher 10:25 ... whatever.

Sean (caller) 10:26 Yeah, I mean, I think Scott's talked repeatedly about, uh, you know, how the corporate governance here is, uh, to say the least, lacking. Um, so-

Kara Swisher 10:34 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:34 B- uh, t- to th- that's-

Kara Swisher 10:35 It's a real test.

Scott Galloway 10:36 Th- this... To say it's even uncharted water here is an understatement. It's not calculus.

Kara Swisher 10:42 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 10:42 It's, it's a, it's a different math that's never been seen before because typically boards will err on the other side. Boards are usually full of what I call FIPs, F-I-P, formally important people. And sometimes their ego absolutely gets the best of them and they won't do what's right for shareholders because they get angry and say, "Well, this activist, I'll, I'll show him. He's gonna show up and threaten me." Uh, or the CEO does something that pisses them off and they fire the CEO even when maybe they should have just dealt with the ego of the CEO. In this instance... I mean, think about how, how just crazy this is. Elon Musk is the wealthiest person on the planet. The source, the primary source of that wealth is Tesla. So he is now turning to the company that made him the wealthiest person in the world and threatening the board publicly on a platform that he bought by selling Tesla shares, that u- unless they pay him another $70 billion, he's going to take his ideas to another company while he's working at Tesla, which... There's, like, eight different things here that any other-

Kara Swisher 11:52 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:52 ... board would fire-

Kara Swisher 11:54 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:54 ... the CEO for, but what you have is his brother, you have several people who are so conflicted here, VCs, one person was involved in SolarCity. This is just... I- it's literally an implosion in governance. And the retort would be, at the end of the day, it's about increasing shareholder value, and this guy has done it. So this guy-

Kara Swisher 12:17 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 12:17 The, the argument would be he has earned the right to play by a different set-

Kara Swisher 12:22 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 12:22 ... of rules. And, uh, it... But I've never seen...... anything-

Kara Swisher 12:26 Never.

Scott Galloway 12:26 ... resembling this.

Kara Swisher 12:28 Yeah, we've got a goat, Sean, but he's an adult toddler and they're giving him sugar. I don't know what else to say. And they're gonna keep giving him sugar until he breaks something, which he's done many times. Anyway, Sean, thank you so much. It was great to chat with you. We hope you don't lose your job, but-

Scott Galloway 12:41 Thanks, Sean.

Kara Swisher 12:41 ... this was a great question.

Caller (guest) 12:42 Thanks.

Kara Swisher 12:42 I appreciate it.

Caller (guest) 12:43 Thanks very much.

Scott Galloway 12:43 Bye now.

Kara Swisher 12:43 All right,

Kara Swisher 12:44 bye. Let's move on to our next caller, a doctor who reached out to us following one of our discussions about weight loss drugs. Hello, Dr. David Roney. As in, no, it's Roney, Roney, right? David Roney?

Caller (guest) 12:56 Yeah. Do you love macaroni?

Kara Swisher 12:57 As in macaroni. I do love-

Scott Galloway 12:59 Macaroni, Roney.

Kara Swisher 12:59 Who doesn't? Actually.

Caller (guest) 13:00 Take the mac off, but you'll love me too.

Kara Swisher 13:03 Okay. All right. (laughs) Okay, perfect.

Caller (guest) 13:05 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 13:05 You're a robotic surgeon with a personal finance website. I, I, this is fascinating. Um, can you tell me just, uh, briefly about this?

Caller (guest) 13:14 Yeah. So, um, uh, that started because I don't like to be told I can't do anything. And, uh, I graduated, uh, from United States Naval Academy with no financial literacy and then thought I was doing okay, and the great financial crisis started. And I called in to add some money to my account and they told me I couldn't because the funds were closed, and then they told me I didn't warrant getting a financial advisor, uh, because I didn't make enough money, which didn't make any sense to me 'cause I made the most money in my family at the time. Um, so I, it created a chip on my shoulder and I started learning as much as I could about finance. Next thing you know, I, I had accumulated a lot of knowledge. Fast-forward to the pandemic and I was watching people-

Kara Swisher 13:57 (clears throat)

Caller (guest) 13:57 ... uh, lose their jobs, and I couldn't understand what was going on and why these things were occurring. And my brother challenged me to help as many people as I could by just putting the knowledge in my head-

Kara Swisher 14:07 Wow.

Caller (guest) 14:07 ... out there on the internet, so.

Kara Swisher 14:09 Good for you. Well, congratulations, Macaroni. Okay. Um-

Caller (guest) 14:13 Thank you.

Kara Swisher 14:13 So l- let me... Uh, what's your question? You're also a doctor. So what- did... You wanna talk about weight loss drug affordability.

Caller (guest) 14:19 Yeah. So, you know, um, uh, Professor Galloway, so, uh, you mentioned that, you know, Ozempic can be a world changer, right? It can be a thing that sort of leads to further breakthroughs and behavioral modification and getting people off of things they might be addicted to, right? 'Cause that is a sort of benefit that has seemed to, uh, uh, have occurred that they've seen in observation. People stop drinking as much, gambling as much, things of that sort. Um, the thing that we never really consider and we... Healthcare gets a bad rap, right? It's clearly not a good system that is-

Scott Galloway 14:53 Mm-hmm.

Caller (guest) 14:53 ... uh, designed well as for the times that we're in. However, the thing that always slips underneath people is the fact that insurance plays a big role and goes unregulated, um, to the degree that they-

Scott Galloway 15:05 (clears throat)

Caller (guest) 15:05 ... determine who can afford whatever they can afford. Most people can't afford a sort of, like they've said, a $400 emergency and the average car payment is $1,000, but-

Scott Galloway 15:16 Mm-hmm.

Caller (guest) 15:16 ... Ozempic and the other, uh, GLP-1 agonists might be $1,200.

Kara Swisher 15:21 All right. Question. What's your question? That, what, what are we gonna do about it? What are we gonna do about it? Is that the question?

Caller (guest) 15:27 So the question is, is what, what do you... How do you envision that, uh, insurance is going to sort of change in the future in order to reflect the vision that you see carrying out?

Scott Galloway 15:39 Uh, uh, first off, Doctor, and I... Th- it always sounds patronizing when I say this, but I mean it. As someone who went to Annapolis and decided not to go there and went to UCLA, I appreciate your service. If you're in the top decile of income earners in the United States, I think you have access to best healthcare in the world, but it's the bottom 90 who are subsidizing it. And I think that one of the, um, culprits, if you will, is the insurance industrial complex, which does a very good job of flying below the radar. I think the insurance in the United States, on a lot of levels, is literally the, the, one of the biggest economic taxes that the poor pay. And, uh, I've talked about this a lot. I am not insured because I can afford not to be insured. It's, it's poor and middle-income households that can't be insured. Now, as it relates to GLP-1 drugs, I do think over time the benefits are gonna be so obvious and also the amount of capital going into the exploration of GLP-1 drugs is gonna be so massive that it's gonna create competitors and bring the cost down, and I do think the government's gonna get involved. Because here's the problem right now with GLP-1 drugs. It's not getting out to the rural areas where people are obese and it's really impacting their lives in a negative way. I do think the market, to a certain extent, and government hopefully, will start to, um, increase the distribution or disperse GLP-1 drugs. I'm hopeful that it happens. Bigger, broader issue, we need some form of, uh, healthcare reform that gets rid of this ridiculously fat and happy expensive middleman that has weaponized government and creates regulatory capture called the insurance industrial complex.

Kara Swisher 17:18 Yeah, I think one of the things that Scott has talked about a lot, and I think it's important, is to understand the system is good for nobody, including doctors. My brother's a doctor, as you might know, and I, I don't... I've never talked to any doctor who likes the insurance system and, or, uh, or how to bill, the billing system. Um, it's so... Uh, it's so... They're so en- captured by it and spend a lot of time, um, dealing with it that they should be treating patients, right? Or they want to be treating patients. And I don't know, from your perspective, um, it's, it's complete... Everybody gets screwed but these insurance middlemen, uh, in some fashion, and it's completely unfair. Um, and for these drugs, which are, have... You know, they still gotta be tested. It's still the, the... They've been around for a long time and for diabetes and everything else, but, um, but I think Scott's right. At some point there's gonna be so many of them, the price naturally will come down. But that's not always been true with drug prices, right? It hasn't been. Um, but one might imagine at some point an over-the-counter version of these things, right? That it's really... Uh, that it's gonna, it's gonna, it's, it's gonna be so in demand and it will start at the top and then, I hate to use the word trickle down, but this one, I think, will in that regard. But it should immediately... The government should immediately be doing testing to try to deal with obese, um, populations to cut prices on, on this-... you know, this diabetes epi- epidemic. It's, as, as Scott calls it, the insurance industrial complex. There's a diabetes industrial complex, which keeps people living... Their health span dies long before their lifespan. There's a good story in the journal about this. And that's where the costs come in, and it, and they make all the money with these very sick people who don't have to be that sick. I don't... What are your thoughts, very briefly?

Caller (guest) 18:59 Um, briefly, I, I... It hasn't really come out, but if you talk to people who work in healthcare, you're gonna notice that the-

Kara Swisher 19:06 Mm-hmm.

Caller (guest) 19:06 ... economic incentives for insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies not to sort of reimburse this or not to add this to formulary is completely there. Um, to the fact that if you look at the starting doses of these medications, they're no longer available. Um, so you can't even start people on these. And people are starting to cut corners, and, and again-

Kara Swisher 19:28 Di- people with diabetes, you're talking about.

Caller (guest) 19:29 People with diabetes. You can't start people on, on this medication if they-

Kara Swisher 19:32 Mm-hmm.

Caller (guest) 19:32 ... if weight loss is the cure. If we think about it, diabetes, the first management is sort of, sort of diet mode- and lifestyle modifications. And sort of, if you add this into like the armamentarium of doing that, then that is a, a thing that can take place. I think we focus on the top 5% because that... We're a capitalistic society, and we leave the rest, uh, folks behind, and then we complain about how they can't catch up when, in fact, like our system is doing it. The... We waited a long time to, to change the insulin prices, right? Like, I don't have a lot of-

Kara Swisher 20:08 Mm-hmm.

Caller (guest) 20:08 ... faith that this is gonna change anytime soon, and I see a lot of people saying how great this is. But I used to be poor. I was homeless. Like, I remember what it's like for my mother trying to get medicine. Like, this sucks. It, it's like physically painful-

Kara Swisher 20:21 Mm-hmm.

Caller (guest) 20:21 ... to watch someone suffer.

Kara Swisher 20:26 I, I would agree with you. I, I... This is something I, I feel like they... especially as they... the studies come in and th- they have good results, that the government needs to get involved in. It's a national health crisis in, in many ways. And what... This, this is, this is so typical of so many drugs, but in this case, it's one that could really save costs. Anyway,

Kara Swisher 20:46 Dr. Roney, we've gotta go, but it's a really great question.

Caller (guest) 20:49 I appreciate it. You guys have a blessed day.

Scott Galloway 20:50 Thank you, Doctor.

Kara Swisher 20:51 Up next, we have someone with a question about AI.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 20:54 Good morning. It's exciting to be here. My name is Suzanne. I'm the dean of students at a, um, very rigorous, independent, um, high school.

Kara Swisher 21:05 Mm-hmm.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 21:05 And, um, my question, coming from a very highly resourced school that is much more concerned with getting it right than being right.

Scott Galloway 21:16 Hmm.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 21:16 And we're really wrestling with AI right now. And so my question is, do you believe that AI tools and education enhance or hinder students' creative abilities? And how can educators sort of balance the use of AI, the fact that it's coming, it's gonna be here, with the need to really develop critical thinking skills and creativity?

Kara Swisher 21:42 Great question. Um, I, I'll start, Scott.

Scott Galloway 21:44 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 21:44 Um, you were around for the dawn of the internet age, correct? Or when they were... You know, remember Apple, you saved box tops or whatever to, to get computers in schools? You remember that era, correct?

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 21:54 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 21:55 Yeah. So, um... You can talk as much as you want, by the way. Um-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 21:58 Oh, okay. I'm sorry.

Kara Swisher 21:59 Uh, yeah, yeah, that's okay. Um-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 22:00 I'm used to just being... you know, listening.

Kara Swisher 22:03 No, no, please don't.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 22:04 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 22:04 Please do.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 22:04 Okay.

Kara Swisher 22:04 Please jump in anytime you want.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 22:06 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 22:06 So, um, so I think this is a very similar shift, is that a lot of people at the beginning of that, everyone was putting computers in schools without thinking it-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 22:13 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 22:13 ... through properly, right? And some of it worked-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 22:16 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 22:16 ... and some of it didn't. And some of it was, you know, people were worried about websites, where kids went to and protection, and were they wasting their time? Were they playing games? It went on and on, and then everyone got laptops. Was that worth it?

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 22:27 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 22:28 Um, I think it's... it reminds me quite a bit of that, except in this case, um, people are already computer literate. Stu- your students-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 22:34 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 22:34 ... are all highly literate in computers. They have grown up with computers. And so it reminds me a little bit of that. But, uh, you know, to say it's a hindrance or an asset, it's both. It's gonna be a hindrance.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 22:46 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 22:46 There's all kinds of, um, problems you're gonna s- show. Uh, n- not the... You know, they rattle that media goes crazy about copying or plagiarism. Um, I think that's been around forever. It's just a new way to plagiarize, and a probably better way, faster, better way. But they'll-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 23:02 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 23:02 You'll figure that part out, and I think you'll have your own software, and there is software that does that. Um, but, but I, I do think one of the things that you should do is embrace it and use it, so you-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 23:13 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 23:13 ... as teachers, understand it. Um, I think one of the things is initially, and I talked to, uh, Randi Weingarten about this. Um-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 23:19 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 23:20 ... she... I was sitting in the... We were sitting in the audience with her at the, the AI thing that Biden, uh, put out-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 23:25 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 23:25 ... the executive order. And she turned around and she goes, "I'm not against this," to me, like, 'cause she... I'm always like, "You're so negative, Randi." And she was like, "I'm, I'm thinking, I'm learning, I'm doing this." And I think that's probably the thing I say to most teachers, is you, you yourselves gotta understand it, 'cause the kids absolutely get it, kind of thing, and they'll get it really quickly. Scott?

Scott Galloway 23:45 Uh, nice to meet you. I, I had this warm emotion come over. When I was at UCLA, uh, and I realize you're at a high school, I was c- close with the dean of students, Ray Goldstone, and the assistant dean of students, Peter Weiler. They were both just such wonderful men, and all they did was put out fires all day. I remember thinking like-

Kara Swisher 24:03 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 24:03 ... when there was just an awful problem, no one knew what to do, it ended up with the dean of students.

Kara Swisher 24:07 Mm-hmm. Call Suzanne. Call Suzanne.

Scott Galloway 24:08 Um, so thanks, thanks for your good and challenging, uh, uh, work. I'm an AI optimist around this stuff. I think we should be... You know, if you're trying to teach a kid how to write and put together a paragraph, and, you know, subject, you know, whatever, no fragments, new thought, new paragraph, then there's gonna be AI tools that can look at it. It's similar to how we have tools now to see if, if they're, you know, if they're plagiarizing or whatever. You're gonna have those tools. But in general, outside of them teaching them how to write pros-I think it's a tremendously powerful tool. I remember in my second year of business school, my professor of manufacturing, Sarah Beckman, who was just this outstanding professor, I remember the moment, I remember when she said, "I don't mind you using spellcheck." Some professors actually back then didn't, they thought it was-

Kara Swisher 24:57 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 24:57 ... cheating for you to use spellcheck.

Kara Swisher 24:59 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 24:59 And I, as someone who writes a lot, I can tell you that what I've found so far, and Carrie uses the exact right word, that what AI produces is very anodyne. It doesn't compel or move anyone to emotion. But what I'm write, I'm writing a blog post tomorrow on, on Bill Ackman and how basically money has taken the place of democratic institutions.

Kara Swisher 25:20 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 25:21 And I was trying to come up with unexpected consequences, and I typed into GPT-4, "What are the most unexpected but enduring consequences of the COVID pandemic?" And it came up with 10 things, and eight of them I knew, but two were different. And I'm incorporating that. Yeah, I think it's great for, I think it's just a great tool.

Kara Swisher 25:37 Research, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 25:38 I think it's gonna expand creativity. And what I would wanna be doing is wrapping my arms around it and having classes, or not even classes but maybe part of class, like what are the right prompts to make your paper better?

Kara Swisher 25:53 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 25:53 What are the right ways to think? What could you ask that would, that would give you more examples? Um, I think it's very, I think it's real exciting, I-

Kara Swisher 26:02 Yeah, that's why you need to use it. I advise everyone to use it every day for different things, even if you're not gonna use it. One of the things that, uh, I think would work well is timelines. Like there's certain things, why do them?

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 26:12 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 26:13 I mean, you can do, I mean you can sit in front of, you're doing it in s- in front of an encyclopedia or the internet. Imagine, th- the internet used to just take you to the pages and then you pulled off of them, um, some people-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 26:22 Right.

Kara Swisher 26:22 ... more than others, including Bill Ackman's wife, but off of Wikipedia, but, um, y- you know, people have been doing that for a while, paraphrasing or looking up in encyclopedias. This is like that. It goes de- it dives into the content itself-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 26:36 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 26:36 ... which is why they're in so many content fights with, with content makers, and as they sh- as content makers should be suing them or doing a deal with them. Um, but it's very, it, it, you have to be thinking of what it could be used for and how you can not waste time with students and get them to the real discussions. There's no reason why they have to use an encyclopedia or research papers to do a timeline when it could do it for you. You're, it, it's not a skill to do that. It's just not. And that's fine. Uh, you know, at some point, one of, l- lot of reporters are very, um, reticent to use it. You know, I was having an argument about headlines. I was like, "Why are we writing headlines anymore? We can pick them." What's important is then the teacher intervene when, and the student learns about being factual, how to use the research. Learning how to research, and this is how people are gonna research in the future, is a critical thinking skill. And so once you have that there, it's sort of like clay. What are you gonna make with it? And that's where teachers have to st- have to-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 27:35 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 27:36 ... and should, and should be stepping in. But to make it like a, they're gonna cheat, the assumption of cheating immediately is kind of a terrible way to think of your students, right?

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 27:45 No, absolutely, and we don't.

Kara Swisher 27:47 Mm-mm.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 27:47 It was r- it's really more we wanna use these tools and teach the students how to use them in ways that are helpful.

Kara Swisher 27:54 Mm-hmm.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 27:55 But we also wanna make sure that they are n- their creativity isn't limited.

Kara Swisher 28:00 Mm-hmm.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 28:00 So I love Scott's example that he typed in, "Give me 10 unexpected"-

Kara Swisher 28:04 Yeah.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 28:04 ... "consequences." Eight of them he knew, two he didn't.

Kara Swisher 28:07 Mm-hmm.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 28:07 And that's great. But we also wanna make sure that our students aren't just going to that list of 10 which we know the large-

Kara Swisher 28:16 Sure.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 28:16 ... language models are pulling-

Kara Swisher 28:18 Right.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 28:19 ... from stuff that's already happened.

Scott Galloway 28:20 Mm-hmm.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 28:20 So how-

Kara Swisher 28:21 Right.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 28:21 So it's how are they gonna bring their own stuff into it? And the other thing that I'll say, and, uh, um, I am very familiar first-

Kara Swisher 28:28 Mm-hmm.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 28:28 ... somebody of my age with what's going on, is that we know that all learning happens in relationship.

Kara Swisher 28:35 Mm-hmm.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 28:35 And so we need to make sure that, um, the customized tutoring that Kahn Academy wants to do or Grammarly-

Kara Swisher 28:43 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 28:43 ... doesn't take the place of those relationships, which is something that I think is-

Kara Swisher 28:48 100%.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 28:48 ... so important. And here we are still seeing the impact of the isolation of the pandemic-

Scott Galloway 28:55 Mm.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 28:56 ... on our youngest students and their socialization skills. So-

Kara Swisher 28:59 Agreed, I think that's smart. I mean, I think, but that's why you need to join with the students who are also figuring it out. Like-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 29:05 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 29:05 ... avail yourself to their knowledge. I think they'd feel-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 29:07 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 29:07 ... very good about that, explaining to you how they're using it. Um, one of the things is, I agree with you on in-person stuff. You know, my son's at Michigan right now. He's a, he was, he was having some difficulty with I think a physics thing, and he was using-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 29:20 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 29:21 ... eh, eh, eh, AI. But he's now, you know, he goes to a tutoring thing too, like, where there's-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 29:27 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 29:27 ... a person there so they can discuss the ideas. And I think-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 29:30 Right.

Kara Swisher 29:30 ... you can do them in conjunction with each other in a way, for some reason people think it's either/or, and I do think technology can-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 29:37 Yeah, no.

Kara Swisher 29:37 ... really aid you. And again, join with them. Uh, you know, eh, again, I think so, too many teachers when I, they talk to me are like, "How are they gonna cheat?" I'm like, "Well how are they gonna learn? Why don't you think that way?" So it could, and some customized things could be interesting, right?

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 29:52 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 29:53 Maybe they could design things. Um, I think you're talking about serendipity, like the serendipity of learning, right?

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 29:59 Right, yes, yes. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 30:00 Yeah. So it's really, it's a really exciting time and it can be, you can see it going sideways rather quickly.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 30:07 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 30:07 But you could also, you know, obviously you're a, obviously a highly intelligent educator. Um, don't neces- it's like being scared of an iPhone, like or being s- it's not, that's not, it's not, that's, the internet's not the problem. I mean, it can be in many ways.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 30:22 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 30:22 But it's how people use it. And I think teachers have got to get digitized.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 30:26 Sure, sure. And, and one of the things that's so important always is that this is no different, the use of AI is no different than using any other unauthorized source-

Kara Swisher 30:36 Correct. Right.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 30:36 ... and so we, we already have tools in place for that.

Kara Swisher 30:40 Yeah.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 30:40 So it, um, it's not fear more just-

Kara Swisher 30:43 Yeah, you don't know.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 30:44 ... you know, eh. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 30:44 Well you know what? It'll get better. I'm sorry to tell you. It's gonna get better-

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 30:47 Oh, yeah.

Kara Swisher 30:47 ... but we're gonna... The last part of my book I just finished, I said, I used an AI thing as a joke at the end and then I said, "It's really bad." They wrote an end to my book that I said, "This is just terrible." I said, "But I'm gonna get worse and it's gonna get better." That's how it's gonna go.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 31:01 Yeah. It's the wor- it's the worst it's ever gonna be right now.

Kara Swisher 31:04 Yeah, yeah.

Suzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller) 31:04 And it's just such a, it's mind-blowing to think about it that way.

Kara Swisher 31:07 Yeah. Anyway, we appreciate it and we appreciate your work with students.

Scott Galloway 31:10 Thank you Dean Suzanne.

Kara Swisher 31:12 Uh, how great was it to talk to all these listeners? I mean, they're really smarter than we are. That's, uh, that's a conclusion I just made.

Scott Galloway 31:18 I, I generally am registered in emotion of intimidation 'cause I thought these people probably see through my bullshit. I mean these, I was struck at how thoughtful and smart these people were.

Kara Swisher 31:28 It's really important to get other people's perspectives. We always like them even when we don't agree and they challenge us.