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Kara and Scott Take Questions from Pivot Fans

It's Pivot's first-ever call-in show! Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway talk to listeners and answer questions on Elon Musk, AI, and Ozempic. #pivot #podcast #elonmusk #ai #ozempic

Kara SwisherhostScott GallowayhostSean (caller)guestCaller (guest)guestSuzanne (Dean Suzanne, caller)guest
Jan 22, 202431mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:04

    Intro

    1. KS

      Get excited, Scott, because we're doing things a little differently today. It's a special show with Pivot listeners calling in and asking us their questions on all sorts of topics. We're gonna meet the people, Scott! The people!

    2. SG

      I don't like surprises. At 49, I could slip and break a hip when you do this to me.

    3. KS

      (laughs) I think you're gonna love it. Our first listener call ever, so this is a very exciting thing. Sean, welcome!

    4. S(

      Well, hi, Kara and Scott. Thanks for having me on. Um, I'll try to set the bar as low as possible-

    5. KS

      (laughs) Oh, okay.

    6. S(

      ... for any subsequent, uh, listeners who are asking questions, uh, so they don't have a tough act to follow. Um, so I'm a longtime listener-

    7. KS

      Uh-huh.

    8. S(

      ... and I'm an attorney.

    9. KS

      Uh-huh.

    10. S(

      And, uh, I, I worked in private practice as a litigator for a while.

    11. KS

      Uh-huh.

    12. S(

      And the past few years, I've worked in the public sector.

    13. KS

      Uh-huh.

    14. S(

      Um, I've got a question about your favorite 3D-

    15. KS

      Can I ask you a number-

    16. S(

      Yeah.

    17. KS

      ... of questions? Are, are-

    18. S(

      Sure.

    19. KS

      Do you, do you like the penis jokes? No, not that one totally. Don't.

    20. S(

      (laughs) Uh, I appreciate Scott's humor, but I feel like now being on the podcast, I'll be unemployable for the foreseeable future. So-

    21. SG

      Well, that's what we like to do-

    22. S(

      ... uh, I appreciate it.

    23. SG

      ... here. We like to ruin careers.

  2. 1:04 – 2:27

    Elon Musk

    1. SG

      (laughs)

    2. S(

      Yeah. (laughs)

    3. KS

      Thank you, Sean. Let's listen to your question. Let's listen to your question.

    4. S(

      So it's about, it's about Elon, and it's something of a legal question, but it's way outside of my-

    5. KS

      Who?

    6. S(

      ... area.

    7. KS

      Who? Who is it a... Who?

    8. S(

      Elon.

    9. KS

      Who? We, we've never heard of him, but go ahead.

    10. SG

      Yeah. Never, yeah, you don't talk about him on this show.

    11. KS

      No.

    12. SG

      No, not a lot.

    13. KS

      No, no.

    14. SG

      Um...

    15. S(

      But it's outside of my area of expertise-

    16. SG

      Second-biggest complaint, by the way-

    17. KS

      (laughs)

    18. SG

      ... is we talk a bit too much about Elon.

    19. S(

      Uh, so here's my question. Uh, in buying the platform, Elon's turned himself into the main character on Twitter, uh, and he's repeatedly posted controversial tweets. Uh, in multiple instances, Elon's tweets have had a negative impact on the financial interests of X, uh, not to mention Tesla. Um, so what I wanna know, uh, you know, if you guys have any insight into this, particularly you, Scott, since you've served on boards, uh, over the years. Is there some reason, legal, practical, or otherwise, that no shareholder has pursued legal action against Elon asserting that his tweets, uh, have constituted a breach of his fiduciary duties? And I'm putting that, uh, unsuccessful 420 lawsuit from a few years back in a separate bucket because it involved alleged fraudulent misrepresentations about the company itself, whereas some of his other tweets are just lightning rods for controversie- controversy that cause the stock price to dip. Um, so I'm wondering if you guys have any insight on

  3. 2:27 – 4:19

    Lawsuits

    1. S(

      that.

    2. KS

      Well, can... Before Scott starts, there are some shareholder lawsuits around how he beha- And, and his behavior is noted in them, in several of them, um, happening at various times. He's won quite a few of them, um, uh, so it... That... Including that one w- with the shareholders, but there are a number of shareholder, um, actions happening, but go ahead, s- uh, Scott. Why don't you talk about being on a board, because I haven't been?

    3. SG

      Well, well, you have to d- distinguish between a private and a public company. A public company is fertile hunting ground for plaintiff's attorneys who when they see anything resembling, um, behavior that they think is bad for shareholders, they can initiate a class action suit. And typically in a board meeting, you get a list of all the legal actions, and they're, they're numerous, employees, uh, you know, all sorts of stuff. And plaintiff's attorneys, while they play a really important role as sort of a check on corporate America, there are quite a few of them who the ecosystem is file a suit, and many companies will just settle. And there's incentive to file a lot of suits against companies that don't see, you know, the, the distraction and the potential downside is worth it, and so they'll just settle. He's, he's probably... When you're talking about X now, that it's a private company with what is a relatively finite number of shareholders, it's unlikely they filed suit because they're all his buddies, and as far as I can tell, the only reason they initially invested was hope that they would curry favor with him and have the opportunity to invest in the follow-on round of SpaceX or take, be one of the book runners, you know, be the... You know, uh, Sequoia I can't imagine consciously made a rational decision in isolation to put whatever it was, a couple hundred million dollars into X. But they think this is an ecosystem, "We wanna be involved in all of his other ventures. We wanna have an opportunity to

  4. 4:19 – 12:44

    Governance

    1. SG

      participate."

    2. KS

      It's a vig.

    3. S(

      Yeah.

    4. SG

      Yeah.

    5. KS

      It's essentially a vig to hang-

    6. SG

      And, and-

    7. KS

      ... with the Elon, Elon.

    8. SG

      In, in the Musk sphere.

    9. S(

      Sit at the table.

    10. KS

      Yeah.

    11. SG

      What, what's unusual though is it relates to what I have never seen, I don't think anyone's seen a governance. Earlier this week, he essentially took to Twitter to demand that he would get 25% voting control, and I think he knew that that would be impossible for a post-public company 'cause he would be retroactively trying to create a new class of sho- stock that had super majority voting control. I think he knew that wasn't possible, so the only way to get there would be to increase his stake and award him options that would get him to that 25% mark. He has options that if he exercises now take him from 13% to 17%. I have never seen a CEO... I've been on boards where CEOs stamp their feet and threaten to leave over their compensation. I've never seen a CEO take to Twitter and threaten the company publicly or threaten the board unless he gets another $70 billion in compensation, but he is effectively a walking plaintiff's attorney dream. But he's created so much shareholder value, and I, and Sean, uh, after Kara responds, I'd love to get your thoughts here.

    12. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SG

      My, my sense is he sees the legal expenses as a, as a, uh, uh, an expense of doing business the way he does business. He invites them. He knows they're gonna come, but the dollars are so enormous here that he'd rather be aggressive, raise his profile even at the risk of shareholder lawsuits. Kara, what do you think?

    14. KS

      Yeah. I, you know, I think a lot of CEOs do this privately, right? Sort of hold up a board-

    15. SG

      100%.

    16. KS

      ... or threaten and things like that, and so he's just doing it publicly 'cause he's that guy 'cause he gets to be that kind of asshole. But he, um... What's interesting is as Scott said, a lot of tech companies have these dual, uh, class shareholders, and he k- he didn't do it at the time Tesla was created and probably wishes he had.

    17. SG

      Mm-hmm.

    18. KS

      But it's not... They can't do it now. They can't do it now. Now what's interesting about this is he's essentially saying, "I will withhold my, my leadership, right, from you unless, um..."... unless you do this, right? That's what he's saying. I will not help you in the future. I won't help with AI. Even though he's touted the company as an AI company and a robotics company, which it has very advanced robotics, it has very advanced AI. I'm not gonna help you make wealth anymore until you pony up this money. Now, the pro- other problem, besides the fact that it can't make a dual-class structure, which I think would be to his liking, but it doesn't matter. He effectively runs the board. The board doesn't-

    19. SG

      That's right.

    20. KS

      ... is not a, is not a, an independent board in any way, or doesn't behave like an independent board. Um, he faced... There's a lawsuit over his compensation package-

    21. SG

      Yeah.

    22. KS

      ... actually going on. A shareholder, um, you know, uh, that, that said his compensation package was outsize, um, and it didn't require him to work full-time, um, and so, uh, so he... So, th- th- there's... You know, he's, he's complimented the Twitter board, um, ih- but it's not a good look. It looks like he's sort of blackmailing the board. That's what it looks like. Um, although he said they like it. Like a, it's sort of like a, um, like a, an, uh, an abused spouse.

    23. S(

      Stockholm syndrome. What, wh-

    24. KS

      Yeah, well-

    25. SG

      Mm-hmm.

    26. KS

      ... I don't think they like it. I, I get the impression they don't, they don't have a choice with this guy.

    27. SG

      What are your thoughts, Sean?

    28. KS

      And so-

    29. SG

      You're, you're the one who passed the bar. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Kara.

    30. KS

      Let me just finish. Let me just say one more thing. They can't do anything until this... It will make this lawsuit win if the board doesn't do... If they suddenly award him this-

  5. 12:44 – 15:21

    Weight Loss

    1. KS

      bye. Let's move on to our next caller, a doctor who reached out to us following one of our discussions about weight loss drugs. Hello, Dr. David Roney. As in, no, it's Roney, Roney, right? David Roney?

    2. C(

      Yeah. Do you love macaroni?

    3. KS

      As in macaroni. I do love-

    4. SG

      Macaroni, Roney.

    5. KS

      Who doesn't? Actually.

    6. C(

      Take the mac off, but you'll love me too.

    7. KS

      Okay. All right. (laughs) Okay, perfect.

    8. C(

      (laughs)

    9. KS

      You're a robotic surgeon with a personal finance website. I, I, this is fascinating. Um, can you tell me just, uh, briefly about this?

    10. C(

      Yeah. So, um, uh, that started because I don't like to be told I can't do anything. And, uh, I graduated, uh, from United States Naval Academy with no financial literacy and then thought I was doing okay, and the great financial crisis started. And I called in to add some money to my account and they told me I couldn't because the funds were closed, and then they told me I didn't warrant getting a financial advisor, uh, because I didn't make enough money, which didn't make any sense to me 'cause I made the most money in my family at the time. Um, so I, it created a chip on my shoulder and I started learning as much as I could about finance. Next thing you know, I, I had accumulated a lot of knowledge. Fast-forward to the pandemic and I was watching people-

    11. KS

      (clears throat)

    12. C(

      ... uh, lose their jobs, and I couldn't understand what was going on and why these things were occurring. And my brother challenged me to help as many people as I could by just putting the knowledge in my head-

    13. KS

      Wow.

    14. C(

      ... out there on the internet, so.

    15. KS

      Good for you. Well, congratulations, Macaroni. Okay. Um-

    16. C(

      Thank you.

    17. KS

      So l- let me... Uh, what's your question? You're also a doctor. So what- did... You wanna talk about weight loss drug affordability.

    18. C(

      Yeah. So, you know, um, uh, Professor Galloway, so, uh, you mentioned that, you know, Ozempic can be a world changer, right? It can be a thing that sort of leads to further breakthroughs and behavioral modification and getting people off of things they might be addicted to, right? 'Cause that is a sort of benefit that has seemed to, uh, uh, have occurred that they've seen in observation. People stop drinking as much, gambling as much, things of that sort. Um, the thing that we never really consider and we... Healthcare gets a bad rap, right? It's clearly not a good system that is-

    19. SG

      Mm-hmm.

    20. C(

      ... uh, designed well as for the times that we're in. However, the thing that always slips underneath people is the fact that insurance plays a big role and goes unregulated, um, to the degree that they-

    21. SG

      (clears throat)

    22. C(

      ... determine who can afford whatever they can afford. Most people can't afford a sort of, like they've said, a $400 emergency and the average car payment is $1,000, but-

    23. SG

      Mm-hmm.

    24. C(

      ... Ozempic and the other, uh, GLP-1 agonists might be $1,200.

  6. 15:21 – 20:46

    Insurance

    1. C(

    2. KS

      All right. Question. What's your question? That, what, what are we gonna do about it? What are we gonna do about it? Is that the question?

    3. C(

      So the question is, is what, what do you... How do you envision that, uh, insurance is going to sort of change in the future in order to reflect the vision that you see carrying out?

    4. SG

      Uh, uh, first off, Doctor, and I... Th- it always sounds patronizing when I say this, but I mean it. As someone who went to Annapolis and decided not to go there and went to UCLA, I appreciate your service. If you're in the top decile of income earners in the United States, I think you have access to best healthcare in the world, but it's the bottom 90 who are subsidizing it. And I think that one of the, um, culprits, if you will, is the insurance industrial complex, which does a very good job of flying below the radar. I think the insurance in the United States, on a lot of levels, is literally the, the, one of the biggest economic taxes that the poor pay. And, uh, I've talked about this a lot. I am not insured because I can afford not to be insured. It's, it's poor and middle-income households that can't be insured. Now, as it relates to GLP-1 drugs, I do think over time the benefits are gonna be so obvious and also the amount of capital going into the exploration of GLP-1 drugs is gonna be so massive that it's gonna create competitors and bring the cost down, and I do think the government's gonna get involved. Because here's the problem right now with GLP-1 drugs. It's not getting out to the rural areas where people are obese and it's really impacting their lives in a negative way. I do think the market, to a certain extent, and government hopefully, will start to, um, increase the distribution or disperse GLP-1 drugs. I'm hopeful that it happens. Bigger, broader issue, we need some form of, uh, healthcare reform that gets rid of this ridiculously fat and happy expensive middleman that has weaponized government and creates regulatory capture called the insurance industrial complex.

    5. KS

      Yeah, I think one of the things that Scott has talked about a lot, and I think it's important, is to understand the system is good for nobody, including doctors. My brother's a doctor, as you might know, and I, I don't... I've never talked to any doctor who likes the insurance system and, or, uh, or how to bill, the billing system. Um, it's so... Uh, it's so... They're so en- captured by it and spend a lot of time, um, dealing with it that they should be treating patients, right? Or they want to be treating patients. And I don't know, from your perspective, um, it's, it's complete... Everybody gets screwed but these insurance middlemen, uh, in some fashion, and it's completely unfair. Um, and for these drugs, which are, have... You know, they still gotta be tested. It's still the, the... They've been around for a long time and for diabetes and everything else, but, um, but I think Scott's right. At some point there's gonna be so many of them, the price naturally will come down. But that's not always been true with drug prices, right? It hasn't been. Um, but one might imagine at some point an over-the-counter version of these things, right? That it's really... Uh, that it's gonna, it's gonna, it's, it's gonna be so in demand and it will start at the top and then, I hate to use the word trickle down, but this one, I think, will in that regard. But it should immediately... The government should immediately be doing testing to try to deal with obese, um, populations to cut prices on, on this-... you know, this diabetes epi- epidemic. It's, as, as Scott calls it, the insurance industrial complex. There's a diabetes industrial complex, which keeps people living... Their health span dies long before their lifespan. There's a good story in the journal about this. And that's where the costs come in, and it, and they make all the money with these very sick people who don't have to be that sick. I don't... What are your thoughts, very briefly?

    6. C(

      Um, briefly, I, I... It hasn't really come out, but if you talk to people who work in healthcare, you're gonna notice that the-

    7. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. C(

      ... economic incentives for insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies not to sort of reimburse this or not to add this to formulary is completely there. Um, to the fact that if you look at the starting doses of these medications, they're no longer available. Um, so you can't even start people on these. And people are starting to cut corners, and, and again-

    9. KS

      Di- people with diabetes, you're talking about.

    10. C(

      People with diabetes. You can't start people on, on this medication if they-

    11. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. C(

      ... if weight loss is the cure. If we think about it, diabetes, the first management is sort of, sort of diet mode- and lifestyle modifications. And sort of, if you add this into like the armamentarium of doing that, then that is a, a thing that can take place. I think we focus on the top 5% because that... We're a capitalistic society, and we leave the rest, uh, folks behind, and then we complain about how they can't catch up when, in fact, like our system is doing it. The... We waited a long time to, to change the insulin prices, right? Like, I don't have a lot of-

    13. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. C(

      ... faith that this is gonna change anytime soon, and I see a lot of people saying how great this is. But I used to be poor. I was homeless. Like, I remember what it's like for my mother trying to get medicine. Like, this sucks. It, it's like physically painful-

    15. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    16. C(

      ... to watch someone suffer.

    17. KS

      I, I would agree with you. I, I... This is something I, I feel like they... especially as they... the studies come in and th- they have good results, that the government needs to get involved in. It's a national health crisis in, in many ways. And what... This, this is, this is so typical of so many drugs, but in this case, it's one that could really save costs. Anyway,

  7. 20:46 – 31:37

    AI

    1. KS

      Dr. Roney, we've gotta go, but it's a really great question.

    2. C(

      I appreciate it. You guys have a blessed day.

    3. SG

      Thank you, Doctor.

    4. KS

      Up next, we have someone with a question about AI.

    5. SC

      Good morning. It's exciting to be here. My name is Suzanne. I'm the dean of students at a, um, very rigorous, independent, um, high school.

    6. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SC

      And, um, my question, coming from a very highly resourced school that is much more concerned with getting it right than being right.

    8. SG

      Hmm.

    9. SC

      And we're really wrestling with AI right now. And so my question is, do you believe that AI tools and education enhance or hinder students' creative abilities? And how can educators sort of balance the use of AI, the fact that it's coming, it's gonna be here, with the need to really develop critical thinking skills and creativity?

    10. KS

      Great question. Um, I, I'll start, Scott.

    11. SG

      Mm-hmm.

    12. KS

      Um, you were around for the dawn of the internet age, correct? Or when they were... You know, remember Apple, you saved box tops or whatever to, to get computers in schools? You remember that era, correct?

    13. SC

      Mm-hmm.

    14. KS

      Yeah. So, um... You can talk as much as you want, by the way. Um-

    15. SC

      Oh, okay. I'm sorry.

    16. KS

      Uh, yeah, yeah, that's okay. Um-

    17. SC

      I'm used to just being... you know, listening.

    18. KS

      No, no, please don't.

    19. SC

      Yeah.

    20. KS

      Please do.

    21. SC

      Okay.

    22. KS

      Please jump in anytime you want.

    23. SC

      Yeah.

    24. KS

      So, um, so I think this is a very similar shift, is that a lot of people at the beginning of that, everyone was putting computers in schools without thinking it-

    25. SC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. KS

      ... through properly, right? And some of it worked-

    27. SC

      Mm-hmm.

    28. KS

      ... and some of it didn't. And some of it was, you know, people were worried about websites, where kids went to and protection, and were they wasting their time? Were they playing games? It went on and on, and then everyone got laptops. Was that worth it?

    29. SC

      Mm-hmm.

    30. KS

      Um, I think it's... it reminds me quite a bit of that, except in this case, um, people are already computer literate. Stu- your students-

Episode duration: 31:37

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