PivotKara Swisher Doesn't Think Trump and Elon Are Breaking Up Anytime Soon | Pivot
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
130 min read · 25,812 words- 0:00 – 6:59
Intro
- KSKara Swisher
He also wore a cheesehead at one point, and he didn't look bad in the cheesehead, I'll be honest with you.
- JPJen Psaki
Most people don't look good in cheeseheads, so I guess that's a pro. (instrumental music)
- KSKara Swisher
Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott is off today, and in his place, I got someone much more superior. I brought in Jen Psaki, the host of MSNBC's Inside with Jen Psaki, who also has a new podcast, The Blueprint, which is excellent. I recommend everyone to listen to it. Uh, we're doing a little crossover event because I was on her show this weekend. She promised to bring dirty jokes in Scott's absence on the show. Welcome, Jen.
- JPJen Psaki
I mean, Kara, first of all, as a listener, I, as I told you yesterday, I was like, "I have to bring inappropriate jokes-"
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Okay.
- JPJen Psaki
"... and inappropriate things to be said."
- KSKara Swisher
Okay.
- JPJen Psaki
But I don't know. I don't know that that's my vibe. I'm just trying to be-
- KSKara Swisher
Okay.
- JPJen Psaki
... my authentic self.
- KSKara Swisher
Do you have any? Do you have a dirty joke that you promised on-
- JPJen Psaki
I-
- KSKara Swisher
... the air last night?
- JPJen Psaki
I really don't, but maybe the conversation will bring me around to it.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay. But feel free to. Feel free to.
- JPJen Psaki
Maybe it'll bring me around to it. I'll, I'll feel free to say inappropriate things. I feel free.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay. Okay.
- JPJen Psaki
I feel free on your podcast.
- KSKara Swisher
All right. I, we've got a lot to get to today, but, like, how, how is it going there? Now, explain what you're doing. You're, you're doing 103 shows for MSNBC. Is that correct?
- JPJen Psaki
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
Or what's the-
- JPJen Psaki
Approximately.
- KSKara Swisher
... what's-
- JPJen Psaki
Um...
- KSKara Swisher
... what's the sitch?
- JPJen Psaki
Well, right now, I'm doing a show on Sundays. I'm doing a show on Mondays. They're a little different, um, because Sundays, which you were on yesterday, it's a different thing. People are sitting down with their coffee. They want big picture. That's what we try to do. And Mondays is just, what the hell just happened today? So it's a little bit different. I have a podcast called The Blueprint, which-
- KSKara Swisher
Explain what The Blueprint i- why it's called The Blueprint. You and I talked about this name before.
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah, I mean, The Blueprint was, was my form of therapy. I don't know if you find podcasting to be therapeutic, but for me, it was after the election, and I, like many people, I was like, "What the hell just happened?" I wasn't shocked, but I just felt like so many things were missed, including by me, and so many things I got wrong. And I, um... So for me, my therapy was making a list of people who I felt would be candid, say what they actually thought, not-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
... pretend like they know all the answers 'cause no one does. Um, I made kind of a list. I make... I, like, write everything on note cards. I'm like an old lady. But I made, like, a back-of-the-envelope list of people. Um, some of them, some... I think you know all of them, right? It's like, people who would just say what's on their minds, you know? Jamelle Hill, Rahm Emanuel, Don Lemon. None of these people are holding back. Um...
- 6:59 – 11:49
Signalgate Aftershocks
- KSKara Swisher
let's, uh, let's first talk with, uh, the latest with Signal Gate. I call it WhiskeyLeaks.
- JPJen Psaki
Mm-hmm. I know, you love that.
- KSKara Swisher
So you can call it whatever you want. I love that word.
- JPJen Psaki
I love whiskey, I like that WhiskeyLeaks.
- KSKara Swisher
Come on.
- JPJen Psaki
It's good.
- KSKara Swisher
Come on. I'm sorry, Pete Hegseth, but you deserve it. This weekend, there were reports that Trump was asking around for opinions on whether he should fire National Security Advisor Walz. But when asked by NBC, the president said he doesn't, quote, "fire people because of fake news and witch hunts," his go-to excuses. He cares more about not giving into the media than he does about helping himself, in a weird way. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is really helping a messy cause by reportedly bringing his wife to two meetings with foreign military counterparts where sensitive-
- JPJen Psaki
And hiring his brother.
- KSKara Swisher
And hiring his brother, where sensitive information was discussed. So talk about this. Like, you've been in there, where there's be- there's been a gate, blank gate, whatever it happens to be.
- JPJen Psaki
Mm-hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
Every administration has them.
- JPJen Psaki
Mm-hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
Something occurs.
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Wh- what is the, what happens inside versus outside? And this is a unique president who just doesn't want to give into the media. I think they're, that is a bigger deal than people realize.
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah, look... Well, f- okay, normal-
- KSKara Swisher
But neither did Biden, right? The me- Biden probably doesn't either, right? Or whoever.
- JPJen Psaki
Well, no president does. First of all, every president, I worked for two, are, they're all pissed off when the press writes things about them that are negative, even if they're entirely fair.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
What, you know. Now, uh, uh, he's, Trump is obviously uniquely against the freedom of press, (laughs) I would say. People may argue that, but I think that's a fair statement. Now normally in a case like this, what would happen is you have a scandal, a controversy, whatever it may be. Um, you get together, in this case if it were, let's just say normal times for a moment, um, I would have gotten together with Jake Sullivan and the national security team and Anita Dunn and Ron Clayton, and we all would've talked about like what actually happened here. You wanna have a full understanding of the full damage, right? So it's not drip, drip, drip. This is the biggest communications 101 mistake, is not having a whole understanding of all of the things that could come out.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
Um, and in this case, it would've been what were the other signal chains? Which is probably knowable internally, but Mike Walz also had that automatic delete after 30 days, um, on his-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, which is a long delete, just so you know, but go ahead.
- JPJen Psaki
It, yeah, but s- but still.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah.
- JPJen Psaki
I mean, the administration's 60, 70-something days old, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
So... And they had access to classified information during the transition.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
So it could've even gone beyond that. Um, and you would've decided kinda what are we gonna say about it? Is it something the press secretary says? Is it something Jake Sullivan comes and talks at the briefing about and then I answer questions? And then you, before you do any of that, you go get it approved by the president. That's a normal process, right? There's no doubt that's not what happened here. Um, but that's what you would normally do.
- 11:49 – 18:13
Trump vs. Law Firms
- KSKara Swisher
So more on Trump's, uh, feuds with lawsuits. Uh, WilmerHale, uh, and Jenner & Block have sued the Trump administration over executive orders targeting them for employing, um-... attorneys are representing groups he doesn't like. Since being in office, Trump has signed five executive orders targeting law firms with punishments. One firm, Paul, Weiss got out of Trump's cross hairs by agreeing to perform $40 million worth of pro bono work for Trump-friendly causes. Skadden, another major law firm, has agreed to provide $100 million of free legal work. Federal judges have temporarily blocked Trump's efforts to punish WilmerHaher & Jenner & Block and others like Perkins Coie are, are pushing back. Uh, do you... W- how do you think about this? 'Cause this is something maybe you wished you could've done in the Biden administration, but you're, you're always... And a lot of these firms are doing it for financial reasons because clients will leave them if they don't have security clearances or if the Trump administration is hostile to them.
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
So they would, they would see an exit of clients, presumably.
- JPJen Psaki
Well, which is why they're doing it, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Right. That's correct.
- JPJen Psaki
I don't think we ever would have wished we would have do- could have done it. I'm not... And maybe I'm ty-... Maybe some people did. I just feel like it's got such a bad... It's kind of counter to what most presidents argue they're for, right? Which is kind of rule of law. And you can be pissed off about what courts do, but it doesn't mean you d- you ignore it, and it doesn't mean you pressure law firms not to represent clients. I mean, it's-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
I think it's... Uh, I mean, there's lots of things to be worried about right now, but this is one I think that's a legit one to be worried about. I mean, you have these-
- KSKara Swisher
Because? Tell me why from your perspective.
- JPJen Psaki
Well, because I think you have these law firms who are making a business decision, not a crime, but also one where it's a version, in my view, of obedience in advance. Um, it is deciding that, um, in order to survive, which they have to do as a business and as a law firm, you are going to agree to things that you wouldn't normally agree to. Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
And you give Trump power over you. And I think for any president, that's dangerous, M- Democrat or Republican, but I don't-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
There's not a Democrat who's tried to do that. So that... What a- but what do you th- w- does it concern you?
- KSKara Swisher
W- I think they, I think they will, I think they will... E- even if they lose, 'cause the judges are pushing back on these things-
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... it will have done business damage to these companies, uh, these law firms, and so it doesn't matter. And then I think later administrations, including Democratic ones, will be looking at a lot of these moves and thinking, "Hmm, this worked." Maybe... They may not have the permission structure Trump has, but it's not som-... Once it, once it's crossed, you're like, "Huh, could I do that?" Even if you say, "I'd never do that," you kind of are like, "Hmm, I could maybe have a little more influence over irritating lawyers or irritating press people, so maybe I'll sue a little bit more." I, I, I think it opens a floodgate of behaviors, and I think if Democrats thinks they'd never do it, I think they're not telling the truth.
- JPJen Psaki
I don't, uh, uh, I don't... I think some Democrats would do it. I, I, I just... Maybe. I, I just think, though, it's kind of... What I mean is if you're kind of then arguing, part of your argument is, "I believe in kind of the rule of law, and I believe in kind of the legal system," um, then, then making these sort of so frontal deals with law firms feels counter to that. I mean... So I don't know. I, I, I, I just... I guess there's lots of things Trump does and the Trump administration does that maybe do open floodgates, but I-
- KSKara Swisher
But, but not in this case. So one of the things that's interesting is which firms are agreeing and which firms are not-
- JPJen Psaki
That is interesting.
- KSKara Swisher
... and why.
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
To me, that's really, like, why has, uh, these others saying, "No fucking way"-
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... and the others are going along with it? And that, to me, is a really int-... And then what it does to their businesses, because I don't mean to be rude, but I don't find lawyers to be the most, you know, backboney of people. Like, journalists are a different thing. When they start suing journalists, they might, they may stick together. Although, we'll get to that later, they aren't in the case of the White House correspondents.
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
They're not joining as a group. But I do think that they... I'd really like to understand why others, uh, you know, even though they're trying to stop these punishments and, and federal judges are blocking these e- efforts, why certain groups did it and certain groups didn't, 'cause, uh, presumably, they all have the same business problem going forward.
- JPJen Psaki
Well, do you think, do you think they're making a business calculation of their own that they can get?
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
But it's like liberal causes. How does that make them the same amount of money as-
- 18:13 – 25:20
Elon’s Wisconsin Giveaway
- KSKara Swisher
Jen, we're back. Elon says the destiny of humanity rests on the Wisconsin Supreme Court election, which is happening Tuesday. Elon appeared at a town hall in Green Bay, Wisconsin on Sunday, where he gave out million dollar checks to two Wisconsin voters.
- JPJen Psaki
Mm-hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
He also wore a cheese head at one point. It didn't look bad on the cheese head, I'll be honest with you.
- JPJen Psaki
Most people don't look good in cheese heads, so I guess it's a pro.
- KSKara Swisher
And blamed George ... But I think it looked okay. I think it worked for him.
- JPJen Psaki
Okay.
- KSKara Swisher
Um, and blamed George Soros when he was heckled. But okay. The Wi- Wisconsin Attorney General did try to stop the giveaway, but his suit was rejected by the state's supreme court just before the- Elon's event began. Elon has affiliated groups, have now spent over $20 million to help the conservative candidate in this judicial race. We're recording a day before the election. Um, I'd love you to sort of assess his political. If you're in a political suit, like how do you s- think his communications are, how do you think his impact is? By the way, there are also two special House elections in Florida this week to fill Matt Gaetz and Mike Walls' seats. The race for Walls' seat is tighter than Republicans expected, although both Republicans are expected to win there. Um, talk to me a little bit about what the Elon effect is happening. Again, there were Tesla takedown protests all over the country, some very creative, and it's ongoing and it's really affected, uh, Tesla stock, um, as much as President Trump and others are trying hard to stop it.
- JPJen Psaki
I mean, I think his power is his money, um, and his money is not paying for ... Uh, I mean, and as much as he was in Wisconsin on Sunday, it's not paying for, "Hi, I'm Elon Musk, go out and vote in the Wisconsin State Supreme Court race." It's paying for all sorts of things, including convincing, you know, getting people to register or to vote to participate in this, whatever we're calling this, a raffle? I don't even know how to call it, the thing where he gives out money.
- KSKara Swisher
Raffle.
- JPJen Psaki
A raffle. Um, so that's, his money is his power. I mean, as, and his platforms are his power. Um, his platforms are his power. Um, and so I don't think a- and I don't think any Democrat should underestimate that. At the same time, um, he's more unpopular than Trump, right? And I don't think Trump, if Trump were ... If- if there were Democra- if there were, uh, if there were House races now, I don't think any House candidates would put him in an ad.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
But they would happily take his money.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JPJen Psaki
And they'd happily take, get his favor so that they would get, um, favored status on Twitter or X or whatever the hell.
- KSKara Swisher
Or not be attacked by Trump, I mean, by Musk.
- JPJen Psaki
Or not be attacked, right.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JPJen Psaki
There's lots of ways to look at that, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
I mean, um, so, um, and I, and I, the Wisconsin State Supreme, we'll see, we'll see what the turnout is, and, but it's still ... And then, you know, you talk to Democrats who, like Ben Wikler, who's the party chair, and others, and they say the turnout's going to be high. That may be the case, but it's still a state supreme court case, uh, race. It's not a governor's race-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JPJen Psaki
It's not a presidential race.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
And the money he's spending there matters.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JPJen Psaki
Um, so that's where I think his power is.
- KSKara Swisher
So money, just money. Do you think, I mean, this destiny of humanity thing, he's done this about, I've heard him do it 27 times in the time I've known him. It's like, "If Tesla doesn't survive, humanity's doomed," he told me once. And I was like, "Okay, all right. Sure, Chad." Um, and one of the things that's, he- he's very dramatic about this, but isn't it positive for him to be so ... Like, imagine a Democratic president, and say Reid Hoffman decides he wants to be-
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... next to the president at all times, you know? And there was a little bit of pushback in the Obama administration when Eric Schmidt was there too much, right?
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- 25:20 – 28:22
Tesla Protests Worldwide
- KSKara Swisher
One of the things we talked about was the idea of- of- of this- uh, of his- uh, of these- these protests 'cause-
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... thousands of people, over 250,000 protested him over the weekend with rallies held at these Tesla showrooms around the world. The protests were part of a so-called Tesla takedown movement, an effort to push back against him-
- JPJen Psaki
Mm-hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
... encourage people to stop buying them. Protestors brandished signs that said things like, "Fight the billionaire oligarchy," and, "Send Musk to Mars now." Um, uh, what do you make of these protests? Is there- i- is there- uh, they're- it seems- they seem- I don't think they're as sort- you know, Musk is blaming victimization. These are real protests. People really don't like... My son writes me about it now.
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
He's like, "What an asshole." And he liked him, right? And so, um, w- how do you look at these from a- from a Democratic perspective? Is it a good thing for the Democratic Party to see these happening or... To me, they just don't like him, like Reid Hoffman says, "They just don't like you, bro."
- JPJen Psaki
No.
- KSKara Swisher
"That's why they're there."
- JPJen Psaki
They don't like him, but-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JPJen Psaki
... I think it's, um, furthering the heat shield, uh, that you- you've talked about and I totally agree with because it is taking the energy and anger that you are seeing from a lot of Democrats out there and directing it at Tesla. Now, I- I think it's very warranted. Elon Musk has done some very bad things. But I kind of wish these people were protesting about Trump and Social Security or Trump and something else, Medicaid cuts, um, because I don't- I don't know. Ultimately, are people gonna go to the polls in November and in November a year and a half from now about Tesla?
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
I mean, I'd be surprised. A lot-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JPJen Psaki
... of these things can happen.
- KSKara Swisher
I agree. I agree.
- JPJen Psaki
But I- I think that's the only thing that's a little-
- KSKara Swisher
Is that you wish they were- this is what they're mad about and not at anything else.
- JPJen Psaki
I wish it was something- I wish they directed all of their pain, anger, and passion, which is a good thing-
- KSKara Swisher
What can Democrats do to- to- to cycle that in?
- JPJen Psaki
Well, I mean, this is or- presumably it's somewhere organic. I haven't seen, but you tell me, that- that these Tesla protesters, are they being organized by any, like, Democratic grassroots groups? I haven't-
- KSKara Swisher
There's some- some are.
- JPJen Psaki
Some?
- KSKara Swisher
Some are.
- JPJen Psaki
Some?
- KSKara Swisher
Some are.
- JPJen Psaki
So-
- KSKara Swisher
Just like every other protest right now.
- JPJen Psaki
Just everything. But- but I think, um, there are things that are happening that are sort of organic but have been- been a- you know, Indivisible and others have been additive to it, like these town hall meetings, right?
- 28:22 – 33:48
Elon Sells X… To Himself
- KSKara Swisher
speaking of money, he's trying to get richer. He acquired, Elon Musk's X has been acquired by Elon Musk's x.AI. Elon announced the deal on X saying the two companies' futures are intertwined. They've already been intertwined, by the way. They're using X data and- and this technology for Grok, uh, which is their product. This officially combines the data, models, compute, and distribution of talent.
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
It officially does but it's already been combined, by the way, everybody. The all-stock deal valued X at, uh, x.AI at $80 billion and X at 33 billion. That, I don't think that takes into account the debt but I'm not sure. There's a big debt thing on there. The price is down from $44 billion Elon paid in 2022, but it's higher than a recent $12 billion valuation. I think this is all made up because I think- I don't- the company has never been a particularly good business, um, and all it does is it hides it now. It hides it completely within this, um, within this AI, uh, boomlet. And even x.AI probably shouldn't be worth $80 billion. It doesn't make anything. It doesn't make any money. It makes a lot of noise. And so com- not- and he's not alone in this. All the other AI companies are- are high. But it's just a... He's just putting money from one pocket into the other, and he may- and it just looks good 'cause what he's doing is attaching... I wouldn't be surprised if he brings Tesla in on this too and merges it into Tesla, and then completes the- completes the picture to bring Tesla's shares up, giving it an AI value essentially.
- JPJen Psaki
That's what, that's why he's doing it you think?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JPJen Psaki
It gives it, like, this fake, phony, uh, boost?
- KSKara Swisher
Until it's not, right?
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Someone's gonna cut- get ahead in AI, and so why not just fold them together and then you don't understand the actual businesses themselves? Yeah.
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah. I mean, you know, the interesting thing about, uh, reading the stories about this made me think about the early days after the purchase when-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
... um, when I think it would... Did it happen in the spring of like two years ago? When did this happen? Am I remembering this correctly? This is relevant-Only because, um, at the correspondence dinner, which I still attend many years later, um-
- KSKara Swisher
We're gonna talk about that next.
- JPJen Psaki
Yes, but, um, I sat next to Linda Yaccarino, who was still at-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
... NBC at the time and I was like-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, yeah.
- JPJen Psaki
... "She's, she's nice. She's kind of interesting."
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- JPJen Psaki
I remember, now you're gonna be like, "You're naive." But like-
- KSKara Swisher
You're naive.
- JPJen Psaki
And I was like, "Oh, she's very engaging." Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JPJen Psaki
And then like a week later-
- KSKara Swisher
Do you know what I used to call her when she got the job at... Well, go ahead. Go ahead. Finish your story.
- JPJen Psaki
No, no, no. I wanna know. I mean, and I... And then like a week later, she went to Twitter or, or X or whatever they were still called at that time and I was like, "Wow, I, I had a misread of that whole situation." That was a real reflection moment. But you remember the early days when it was like, "Thank you for being a source of where I could share my thoughts and I-"
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
"... know you're gonna disappear." And there's this kind of fear of, um, you know, of, of your followers going away. I mean, I've had... I've, I've, I've decreased followers of course, as anybody who is not a right-winger has done m- for the most part over the last couple years. But, you know, at the time I had like 1.4 million followers and I'm like, "Well, man, I wanna see what this happens." But this is, this is like I've built up a following now and now it's just like-
- KSKara Swisher
And then what do you-
- JPJen Psaki
No, no. Now I'm saying this is how I felt a couple years ago.
- 33:48 – 37:31
Trump’s Pardons
- KSKara Swisher
we're back. President Trump commuted the fraud, uh, criminal fraud sentence of Ozy Media founder Carlos Watson just hours before Watson was due in prison. The company falsely claimed to have deals with Google and Oprah Winfrey and would have owed fines over $90 million. Watson is convicted of conspiracy to commit securities and wire fraud, which he did, and identity theft, which he did, and was sentenced to 10 years. Trump also pardoned Trevor Milton, the founder of electric truck maker, uh, Nikola, who was convicted of misleading investors. Same pattern. Milton was represented by Brad Bondy, uh, brother of, uh, AG Pam Bondy in a securities fraud trial. Um, do you think Trump will be the latest investor in the Fyre Festival too the way this is going?
- JPJen Psaki
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
I just... D- do, do presidents usually do this in the middle of a term and-
- JPJen Psaki
No. No. I mean, uh... Wait, also, I mean-
- KSKara Swisher
It's, like, at the end, right?
- JPJen Psaki
Right. And also, I mean, these two thematic fraudsters. It's... it feels also to me, um, it, it's like the Eric Adams thing in the sense that-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Him too.
- JPJen Psaki
... it's a little mobbie, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JPJen Psaki
Because it's like Carlos Watson, who I've met a couple times, I don't know well or anything, but, like-
- KSKara Swisher
Did you like him too? (laughs) I'm kidding.
- JPJen Psaki
No, uh, well-
- KSKara Swisher
He was around Democratic circles, but go ahead.
- JPJen Psaki
He was around Democratic circles is my point, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JPJen Psaki
So you're like... And Eric Adams was a... I don't know, I think he still considers himself a dem, who knows. But, like, it... these... they now feel kind of an obligation to Trump, right? I mean, some version of it. Of course they do. So that's what it reminds me of a mobbie, mobbies thing. The other thing about this Milton, um, uh, pardon, he... Trump said, I... One of my biggest pet peeves is when people talk about themselves in the third person, which-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
... Trump is not the only one who does this, but he-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JPJen Psaki
... does it a lot. Where he said the thing he did wrong was he supported a gentleman, uh, named Trump, right? That was Trump talking about pardon. And it's like, "I don't know the guy well, but he supported me." It's like he gets pulled into these fraudsters who he wants to validate because I think it validates him. That's what it feels like it's about. But yeah, no. You don't normally do it in the middle.
- KSKara Swisher
Is this... Does... Uh, if, if you, if you were working for Biden right now and he suddenly started doing this, what w- would you run into the Oval Office and say? What in the actual fuck or what? What, what's the phrase?
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah. Yes. I mean-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JPJen Psaki
You know? It's like, yes, because in a normal case though, here's the thing Trump knows. There's so much shit flying out there that, like, we're talking about this, you're talking about this.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
Is everybody gonna talk about this? No.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Right.
- JPJen Psaki
Because there's so many other things going on. So it can be kind of buried in the burying of all, you know, which is why he does things like say he's gonna run for a third term.
- KSKara Swisher
Right, yeah.
- JPJen Psaki
It's like he wants to-
- 37:31 – 48:37
WHCA Drops Amber Ruffin
- KSKara Swisher
it though. The White House Correspondents' Association has canceled comedian Amber Ruffin's scheduled appearance at its annual dinner. WHCA President Eugene Daniels said in a statement that the organization decided not to have the comedian to ensure the focus is not on the politics of division. Previously, he had said that he thought it was great to have someone who was edgy. So Eugene, not cool. Um, he did say he was supporting her when he signed her. The cancellation came a day after the White House Chief of Staff, uh, Taylor Budowich, let me pronounce that correctly, slammed Ruffin on X. He shared a clip from a recent appearance on the Daily Beast podcast where she referred to Trump administration as, "Kind of a bunch of murderers." She's a comic. Ruffin also revealed the guidance she got from the Correspondents' Association in that podcast interview. Let's listen.
- JPJen Psaki
They were like, "You need to be, you know, equal and make sure that the, that you give it to both sides and blah, blah, blah." I was like, "There's no way I'm going to be fricking doing that, dude."
- KSKara Swisher
So as someone who attended the dinner, you've been at some of the more controversial ones.
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Both as a member of the White House presidency team and a member of the media. What did you think about this? It's not clear if Trump is planning on attending the dinner. He has in the past. And Press Secretary Carolyn Levitt has already said she's not going. The White House correspondents seem to be giving... They're also deciding where everybody sits, right? They were gonna have the president now decide where they sit, and they could push the main media out of the front seats. They've already also knocked AP out. There's all kinds of things. H- when you look at this, you didn't do much with the White House correspondents. They just ran their own show, right? Correct?
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah. Also, like, you don't have to agree to what they say (laughs) , you know? And they don't respond to what you want either. I mean, the whole point is, is that. I think this is such a sign of kind of weak obedience, um, from... And I will say, I mean, I know, I know Eugene pretty well. He seems to me a little bit... I haven't talked to him about this. Um, in the statement he said, uh, "Unanimous decision." I would not be surprised if he was quite pressured to do this by, um... The White House Correspondents' Association is made up of representatives from kind of every network, every wire service, by outlets who feel under greater pressure than I think he would, personally. But it's not his personal choice. Um, I think it is a, it is a scholarship dinner. Yes, that is true. But what you're doing here, the, the, there's a comedian at almost all of these dinners.
- KSKara Swisher
Right, controversial sometimes.
- JPJen Psaki
The comedian typically, even when there's a, there's a, uh, president with less fodder than Trump, spends most of their time making fun of the sitting president because that's the whole point. There's plenty of easy fodder about Democrats right now. I mean, Chuck Schumer, hello.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, hello.
- JPJen Psaki
There's a few jokes about you and a couple of other people, right? But what this is doing is this is agreeing to the terms he wants at a dinner that the, is supposed to be about preserving the value of the freedom and independence of the press.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
It is you are-
- KSKara Swisher
And speech.
- JPJen Psaki
And speech. And you are obeying in advance about something so stupid, you know?
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JPJen Psaki
Um...
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, that's the thing is it's so stupid. I've never been happy about that dinner, I have to tell you.
- JPJen Psaki
(laughs) .
- KSKara Swisher
I've always felt it was too jocular. I thought it was too like hanging out with your sources. And I wa- I wasn't a political reporter, but I-
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... was like, "Oof, this is a little awkward." When you were dealing, though, with the White House correspondents-
- JPJen Psaki
Mm-hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
... they decided where to sit, right, where everybody sits in the, in the-
- JPJen Psaki
In the briefing room, yep.
- KSKara Swisher
In the briefing room. And now, they're gonna... Now, the Trump administration is taking control of that.
- JPJen Psaki
Mm-hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
They took control of who could be there, and they knocked AP out for not saying Gulf of America, uh, and saying Gulf of Mexico.
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Again, it's a matter of free speech as Julia Pace has said, who runs the, um-
- JPJen Psaki
Yeah.
- 48:37 – 58:02
Wins and Fails
- KSKara Swisher
Jen, let's hear some wins and fails. I'll go first. My, uh, uh, fail of the week are these continuing attacks on, um, on these, these students at colleges. They should be able to say what they want anytime they want, a- and, and even criticize the United States and things, I don't even agree with some of them. Um, and, um, and I really, uh, find it a fail that, that people are not more upset about this, that students, just 'cause of things they say. Same thing with Elon Musk's attacks on people who don't like Teslas. If you don't like a Tesla, you should be able to say you don't like a Tesla. If you don't like Elon Musk, you should be able to say you don't like Elon Musk, and he shouldn't have to spin a conspiracy theory about it because he's sad. And one of the things that I, I've always noticed about this group of people, as I've said on your show and many other shows, every accusation is a confession with these people. Like, everything they accuse people of, they're doing themselves. And so I find it really, um, these are students that are here, we're supposed to be an open society. If they wanna dislike us, come here and dislike us, that's fine too. That's fine too. In fact, it makes us stronger. It makes us love our, our countries, uh, more, uh, our country more. Um, I think a, a win is, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it to, to, uh, Lisa Murkowski, um, who is, um, they, they're doing, actually both Republican senators, uh, uh, uh, Dan Sullivan and the other, uh, and how do... They're, they're really doing different tactics to push back on Trump. I would say I prefer Lisa Murkowski's efforts more. Um, she's in a safer position now that she's shown she's got the, she's got the grit to stay, stick in there, and she has the political capital to, to do that. But I do think there should be more, you see the Pau- je- uh, Senator Lankford doing the same thing and calling for a look into Signal Gate. It would be really nice to see more of these, um, Republican senators find their set. And of course, it's a woman who's doing it first. Um, and I do think that's, um, that's a real, that's something to look up to and we should praise the- those efforts when they're done by the Republican Party. 'Cause I do think it's, as much as we talk about the lack of, um, spine for the Republicans, I think it's super, super hard to be in that situation if you wanna have a role in, um, uh, in government. And I'm gonna add in a last one from international. Marine Le Pen barred-
- JPJen Psaki
Mm-hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
... from the presidential run after embezzlement ruling is really something. It shows there are, um, there are cons- now there are other leaders now who have taken her place, so it's not gonna really slow them down. Um, but I do think that just shows that other countries know how to handle problems of their, of their, of their elected officials and are, are much more fair about it. Of course, there's gonna be a whole conspiracy theory around her, but, uh, nonetheless, I thought that was something surprising for me. I didn't even know that was coming. So your turn-
- JPJen Psaki
I didn't either.
- KSKara Swisher
I didn't at all, I was like, "What?"
- JPJen Psaki
Um, I didn't either on Marine Le Pen. Um...
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JPJen Psaki
Okay. Wins, I'm gonna say, um, as much as I've said repeatedly that there are not enough Democrats out there and more need to be out there, I am delighted by the reemergence of Tim Walz, um, who I think was like locked in a closet somewhere during the 2024 or most of the election-
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- JPJen Psaki
... um, after he became-
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- JPJen Psaki
... the nu- running mate.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JPJen Psaki
Um, he kind of, I love his, um, imperfect, rough around the edges answers to things. He had this amazing moment where he, a couple days ago, where he talked about the benefits of the Department of Education and what it actually does for people. He was asked a question about a Title I, by a t- a student at a Title I school. I think this is one of those bureaucratic things most people don't know how to talk about, and I think mo- a lot of parents would actually care if they knew. Um, I loved that. I love the reemergence of him. The, I'm gonna give a tie. The other person that I have, I didn't, I knew who he was, but I didn't really pay attention to what he had to say, but I feel like has become this emerging great speaker and voice in the Democratic Party is Greg Casar, who is the-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, I don't know this. Explain.
- JPJen Psaki
So he is the chairman of the Progressive Caucus, um, but he is a person who speaks in plain English about how things impact people.
- KSKara Swisher
Ah.
- JPJen Psaki
Um, and I've had him on the show a couple times. He's been in a couple of these rallies. It's always exciting when you see people you didn't really know before and you're like, "That person makes sense." Um, so that's exciting to me. Um, I'm gonna say my loss, I'm just gonna stay in the political space, um, in the blueprint theme, since nobody knows what the blueprint is, I'm gonna tell you. Um, I have been consistently disappointed with Chuck Schumer, which I have openly talked about. Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Me too.
- JPJen Psaki
I think we can, um, move on from the debacle of the funding deba- or funding agreement for a n- for a moment. But here's what is disappointing. It doesn't seem clear that any lessons have been learned, because the Democrats have been on recess, there is a debate coming up about extending high-end tax cuts, which will happen in all likelihood, but this is a, this is a winning issue. It could be something you could equip people to go out to districts and hold town halls and meetings and be aligned. I'm obsessed with Social Security and how this is something that some Democrats have effectively talked about. But the fact is, you have the commerce secretary saying his mother, his mother-in-law... Was it his mother-in-law?
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, whatever. He's such a clown.
- JPJen Psaki
Wouldn't care... No, he said, did you see this? Wouldn't care-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, I did.
- JPJen Psaki
... wouldn't care if she, if her Social Security check got a week late. That should be-
- KSKara Swisher
It's 'cause her son's a billionaire, you imbecile.
- JPJen Psaki
Like, right. Also, like, that should be in ads everywhere.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JPJen Psaki
Like, I know about it, but why isn't it everywhere?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JPJen Psaki
So I'm not putting all the blame on him, but he's a Democratic leader. We can move on from the funding debate. Let's learn some lessons.
Episode duration: 58:02
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