Kara Swisher Slams Tech CEOs’ “Grotesque” Dinner with Trump | Pivot

Kara Swisher 0:00 It was particularly gross, and especially Zuckerberg, who tried to explain himself, looked like a real toady in a room full of todies.

Scott Galloway 0:07 I thought they made sex work look dignified.

Narrator 0:10 (instrumental music)

Kara Swisher 0:16 Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:21 And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher 0:23 Well, hello, Scott. Do you have your shirt on today?

Scott Galloway 0:25 You know, why not?

Kara Swisher 0:27 You know-

Scott Galloway 0:27 Why not?

Kara Swisher 0:28 ... that people seemed to like that quite a bit, and then some people didn't. But a lot of people did, more than they, they think they're used to at this point.

Scott Galloway 0:35 I think it's quite polarizing.

Kara Swisher 0:37 Is it?

Scott Galloway 0:37 I think it gives people hope when they're 80 they can look 79.

Kara Swisher 0:40 We've got a lot to get to today, including Trump's dinner with the tech bros and Tesla offering Elon a massive new pay package. But

Kara Swisher 0:48 first, uh, Trump is rebranding the Department of Defense as the Department of War, restoring a name last used in the 1940s. Let's listen to him explain the rebrand in the Oval Office last week.

Narrator 0:58 So we won the First World War, we won the Second World War, we won everything before that and in between, and then we decided to go woke and we changed the name to Department of Defense. So, we're going Department of War.

Kara Swisher 1:10 That's fucking ridiculous, but Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of War, a- as we're now being asked to call him, which I refuse, took it further. Let's listen.

Narrator 1:19 We're gonna go on offense, not just on defense, maximum lethality, not tepid legality, violent effect, not politically correct. We're gonna raise up warriors, not just defenders.

Kara Swisher 1:33 Oh my God. I, I don't even know what to say. He has such a small penis. All right, I'll note now, the Department of War is just a secondary title for the Defense Department. Official name change would require an act of Congress, and while Trump is downplaying the price tag of his name change, reports suggest it could, rebrand could cost billions, just even changing, like, all the, the logos and stuff like that. Um, I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Um, and then over the weekend, Trump posted a very controversial thing, "Chicago's about to find out why it's called the Department of War." So he's always using a name that was incredibly violent to a U.S. city that's done nothing to him. Um, this idea of maximum lethality, violent effect, offense not defense, going woke? I- I mean, the whole thing is just insane, I think, but I don't know. What do you think, from a branding perspective?

Scott Galloway 2:19 Well, it's just not accurate. Um, first off, the- there's, they're trying to solve a problem that doesn't need solving. The U.S. Defense Department and our... Th- th- there is no one more lethal than the United States Marine SEALs, Special Ops, CIA. I mean, we can deliver more lethality anywhere in the world than any entity in history. So the notion somehow that it needs some sort of rebranding to, to give this performative, um, you know, masculine weirdness. No, that's not masculinity, that's little dick weirdness. And this, unfortunately this attempt to create some sort of illusion of machoness is making us less safe, because one of the things they're doing is saying to transgender people who have served our nation proudly and competently, "We're just gonna kick you out in some attempt to show that we're tough." It's also not accurate. The- the- the- we changed the name for a reason, and that is, conquest was in fact a way you developed economic security and prosperity back in the 15th, 16th, 17th century and before that. When the nation's largest powers developed (laughs) the bomb, it was clear that trying to invade Russia or Russia trying to invade a democratic nation could result in nuclear Armageddon, so we reconfigured our, our policies around the military and we accurately and justifiably changed the name to Defense. And modern warfare, the reality of modern warfare is the following. It's about cyber and space domains, it's about information warfare, it's about economic sanctions, and it's about diplomacy, and-

Kara Swisher 3:54 And training.

Scott Galloway 3:55 ... also, a really good Defense Department is about deterrent. And that is, when Hamas tries to inspire a five-front war by going in and butchering people in, in Israel, and Biden deploys two carrier strike forces, he's there to tell the Iranian proxies to sit the fuck down, not to invade Iran.

Kara Swisher 4:14 No.

Scott Galloway 4:15 It, it, NATO, which is arguably the largest military force in the world outside of the U.S., is there to present, to keep in check the Soviet sphere. We're not, we're not planning to invade Russia. So defense is the right term, and even on practical levels, it hurts us because our Defense Department does a lot of recruiting at NYU. Um, the CIA is a big recruiter, the NSA is a big recruiter, the Armed Services are a big recruiter. And l- do you think more people are inclined to consider going to work for the Defense Department or the Department of War?

Kara Swisher 4:52 The War Department is so

Narrator 4:52 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 4:52 And when you show up with representatives trying to strike a deal or negotiate, just saying, "Hi, I'm here from the Department of War," it reflects this aggressive, faux macho culture where he's threatening to take over Canada and Greenland, and it further alienates our enemies and convinces them they have a need to bind together and form a unified force against us.

Kara Swisher 5:15 Against us, right. So here's the thing. One- first of all, let's keep in mind that Donald Trump has never served in the military and got out 'cause of bone spurs. Let's never forget that.

Scott Galloway 5:23 That's right.

Kara Swisher 5:24 And this idea that we decided to go woke, we didn't win the Second World War. We were brought into these wars and actually settled them, is what we did. We didn't like-

Scott Galloway 5:33 That's right.

Kara Swisher 5:33 ... go on offensive, uh, for these wars. And s- uh, just, and then Pete Hegseth is s- so, such small dick energy. He can't... By the way, speaking of not being able to do a pull-up-He barely could do one, just-

Scott Galloway 5:46 That's unfair. That, just to be clear.

Kara Swisher 5:48 Not unfair. Not unfair. He-

Scott Galloway 5:48 It was a challen- no, no, no, no, no. You're referring to a challenge-

Kara Swisher 5:51 Yes, from Kennedy.

Scott Galloway 5:51 ... which I'm gonna do-

Kara Swisher 5:52 Right.

Scott Galloway 5:53 ... where it's 100 push-ups and 50 pull-ups-

Kara Swisher 5:54 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 5:54 ... and that was his 50th, which was terrible form. But Pete Se- Secretary, Secretary of State-

Kara Swisher 5:59 He's in good shape.

Scott Galloway 5:59 ... is actually in great shape. So is, so is RFK Jr.

Kara Swisher 6:02 Absolutely.

Scott Galloway 6:02 And by the way, I'm gonna do the same thing-

Kara Swisher 6:04 Are you?

Scott Galloway 6:04 ... and I'm gonna kick both their asses.

Kara Swisher 6:05 Oh, okay good. But that-

Scott Galloway 6:06 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 6:06 I'm just saying this, like, performative masculinity is so strange, and this is the ide- this is what, like, teenage very badly raised teenage boys think of as manliness. Like, you're right. You've written a whole book on this. We're not ju- we're not gonna raise up warriors, not just defenders. They are warriors. They just happen to defend. Violent, the word violent, lethality, um, it's just, uh, uh, I- I don't even understand it, it's so weird and fucked up. I mean, this is such a bad message to young men. That's the other part.

Scott Galloway 6:36 Uh, real men who are in great shape and have the ability to deploy violence should they need, they're the ones that break up fights in bars.

Kara Swisher 6:45 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 6:45 They don't start them.

Kara Swisher 6:46 Correct.

Scott Galloway 6:47 They're the ones that, that don't shit post their country. They, they compliment it and defend it. They're the ones that their first instinct is towards protection. It's towards defense. It's not going on offense to try and... We live in a world where no one nation has the power to take over the world. And the notion that, uh, what are we gonna name, we're gonna change the name of the Coast Guard to Coast Attack?

Kara Swisher 7:13 Right.

Scott Galloway 7:14 I mean, it's just-

Kara Swisher 7:15 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 7:15 ... this is unnecessarily performative. It sends entirely the wrong signal.

Kara Swisher 7:20 It's pricey.

Scott Galloway 7:20 It's gonna make recruiting harder. It's a bureaucratic nightmare for all, just from stationary to treaties that say Department of Defense. It doesn't refle- the, the most violent nations in the world, whether it's Russia or North Korea, they call it defense, because they wanna say, "No, we're here to defend." The US is about defending its interests overseas, and when it needs to, it can go on offense like no other entity in history. There's no, no one, no one is saying, "Oh, those Americans are so gentle." We've had so many military incursions. We have killed so many people. (laughs) And the notion that changing the name where we are, where we are screwing up is this faux macho-

Kara Swisher 7:58 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 7:58 ... is-

Kara Swisher 7:58 It's, I thought it died-

Scott Galloway 7:59 ... is limiting-

Kara Swisher 7:59 ... in, like, the '80s. I thought this faux macho thing died.

Scott Galloway 8:02 It's limiting the talent pool.

Kara Swisher 8:04 Not-

Scott Galloway 8:04 You need-

Kara Swisher 8:05 It is.

Scott Galloway 8:05 ... super thoughtful people who believe in our nation and believe in our defense, and also, I do believe there are a lot of people out there that wanna kill us. I believe in going on the offense, militarily. I just do. And if we don't, then let's take our military budget down to two or three hundred billion because we'd use the money, and Canada's not about to invade us. So I'm all for an offensive strategy. But it's there to protect our interests, defend our allies.

Kara Swisher 8:25 Right.

Scott Galloway 8:25 It's not there to conquer nations.

Kara Swisher 8:27 Yeah, they think we'll go get something.

Scott Galloway 8:29 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 8:29 So it's-

Scott Galloway 8:30 It's just that, that shit's over. That era's over. We're not gonna decide, okay, I mean, you could argue and I would argue that there's a m- there's a strategic interest in deplacing Maduro and then having a very strong reliance, alliance with Guyana because of that light sweet crude they have. I, I, I get that, but that's gonna be done through diplomacy, maybe some covert operations. But it's about information warfare, economic sanctions, deterrents-

Kara Swisher 8:54 All kinds of things.

Scott Galloway 8:54 ... Department of War. That's just-

Kara Swisher 8:56 Same thing, same thing with, with, uh, JD Vance and the, "We'll just bomb whoever we want without proof of anything," was insane. Like, I'm so sorry, JD, your mother was a drug addict. But you really have to stop. Like, it's really, like it's so extrajudicial, it's so, um, Duterte. It's so not American, like all this stuff. It's so un-American, but it's just me. I mean, they're all such-

Scott Galloway 9:17 Just to, just to correct the record, just-

Kara Swisher 9:19 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:19 ... I, I realize, by the way, I think Hillbilly Elegy was a brilliant book. I think he's a fantastic writer. I think he's a very intelligent man. But also, let's just clarify a little bit about JD Vance's Appalachian upbringing. This was a guy taking golf lessons in high school who tried out for the varsity golf team. I mean, he's definitely rebranded himself a little bit-

Kara Swisher 9:37 A little t- too Appalachian.

Scott Galloway 9:37 ... more country. He's definitely gone a little bit more Marie of Donnie and Marie in terms of his upbringing.

Kara Swisher 9:42 I know. I agree. But I'm just saying, this is, this is all such f- such small dick energy. And then with all the-

Scott Galloway 9:48 Agreed.

Kara Swisher 9:48 ... the, the, the, we'll get to that in a minute, they, they're all fighting with each other t- talking about throwing hands, all these deb- I- it's ridiculous. They're ridiculous.

Scott Galloway 9:56 Supposedly, Bessent is getting in fist fights or, or threatening to-

Kara Swisher 9:58 Yeah, with the guy, and the guy he was yelling at was an asshole.

Scott Galloway 10:01 ... threatening to punch people.

Kara Swisher 10:02 Fu- punchable face, no question.

Scott Galloway 10:04 Oh, Quilty.

Kara Swisher 10:04 Quilty, and same thing with Elon, but still, it's such blech, such blech. Anyway, um, let's move on. Speaking of someone, th- people who are throwing weight around, the US tech companies gained a combined $420 billion in market cap last week. The

Kara Swisher 10:17 gains lifted their total value to $21 trillion, making them the third of the S&P 500. You have referenced this many times. Well, one, uh, one cause of the jump was Google's antitrust win in the US. The company is facing a new 3.5, $4 or $5 billion fine in the EU for anti-competitive practices, not off the hook. President Trump threatened the EU with investigation that could lead to higher tariffs over the fine, whatever. Any prediction here for, what, the rest of the year? You know, you h- you did pick Google as you noted. Um, but this is a lot. This is, like, a little too much of the S&P when we should, as you said last week, focused on the other 400 companies, not these seven companies, right?

Scott Galloway 10:55 Everything from the tariffs to, um, you know, what's going on with this new AI bill that basically gives them free rein is an, is essentially a transfer of wealth from the 490 traditional, or more traditional companies in the S&P, to the Magnificent Ten. And I had dinner, um, with a friend of mine who works at Apollo, and he said something just fascinating. He said that if, to justify the current valuations of the AI-centered companies, specifically the Magnificent Ten, it implies that they're gonna be able to find an incremental trillion dollars in revenues or efficiencies from their clients, right? What that means is, okay, if we buy more NVIDIA chip and have enterprise licenses with Anthropic or OpenAI, we'll be able to cut a trillion dollars worth of cost. So far, I would argue, the vast majority is coming from efficiencies, which is Latin for cutting your legal expenses...Yeah. Uh, uh, I talked to a Fortune 500 company CEO last week. He thinks that this year they're gonna reduce their legal expenses by a third, and next year-

Kara Swisher 11:58 Wow.

Scott Galloway 11:58 ... by another third.

Kara Swisher 11:59 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 12:00 Right? So it, one of two things is gonna happen. (clears throat) If you think about a trillion dollars in, quote unquote, "savings," right? And there are 150 million Americans who work, it's only 150 million, and assume half that industry is immune, somewhat, from AI. Chiropractors, plumbers, you know-

Kara Swisher 12:21 Dentists.

Scott Galloway 12:21 ... masseuses, whoever it is, right? Hairdressers. They're somewhat immune from AI. Let's assume that half the market, and that's probably generous, is, uh, susceptible to these, quote unquote, "efficiencies or cost cuts in AI," which is Latin for I, you need less lawyers, consultants, whoever, right? It's just a huge destruction. Producers, the 192 people that are about to be laid off from the Colbert Show as he takes six to a podcast. If you assume a load factor and salary of 100,000, a trillion dollars is 10 million jobs. 10 million jobs from a universe of 75 million is about a 15% destruction in employment. A 15% destruction in employment in any industry over the next 24 to 36 months is literally Armageddon. That may not sound like a lot, but that means that industry is, is in a state a chaos. So one of two things is gonna happen. Either these companies' valuations are gonna get cut in half, or we're gonna have massive employment destruction across a small number of industries. Now someone's, would say, "Scott, there's a door three, and that it creates incremental opportunities-"

Kara Swisher 13:25 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 13:26 "... and incremental revenue."

Kara Swisher 13:26 Always say that.

Scott Galloway 13:27 I, I don't see any company saying, "Oh, we're putting out a new car because of AI that's making us more money." I don't see L'Oreal going, "We've launched new moisturizers using AI, and it's created new markets for us." What you're seeing is big companies are saying-

Kara Swisher 13:41 Efficiencies.

Scott Galloway 13:42 ... "We're gonna, we're gonna starch out a lot of costs with AI." So which is it? Either these companies are gonna get cut in half, or we're gonna see a massive... And maybe th- that's capitalism. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Or we're gonna see a massive destruction and reduction in cost in the means of production, which is Latin for massive layoffs in certain industries.

Kara Swisher 14:04 I actually do you say it's a bad thing, 'cause those are consumers who don't spend, right? Those are the, the, cre-

Scott Galloway 14:09 Fair point.

Kara Swisher 14:09 It, it's a, it's a problematic situation if people feel... You know, uh, look, uh, every tech person, anytime you say, they're always like, "Every tech change has created more wealth."

Scott Galloway 14:18 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 14:18 Okay, let's see that. What is it? Explain to us-

Scott Galloway 14:21 Well, it's shareholder wealth right now.

Kara Swisher 14:23 It's shareholder wealth. That's correct.

Scott Galloway 14:24 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 14:24 It's stock wealth. And so the question is like, you remember we had... I'm not gonna say who it was. We had, Scott and I had, uh, um, sort of a drinks with someone. And he was saying, remember he said he was gonna cut his software people from 6,000 to 2,000, or some number like that? It was some massive number. Um, and it, that was about a year ago, like noticing efficiencies. But again, it didn't make a better product or a new product, or move into new areas. It wasn't... It was only just cutting people. That really hasn't-

Scott Galloway 14:51 Well, I'll make the mo- I'll, I'll do the straw man. So the average... In 1995, the average profit margin of the S&P 500 was about 5%. Today, it's roughly 11%. So the average profits have more than doubled. That should imply that they, in fact, have more money and the bar for green lighting new products, new ideas, new factories has been lowered. And they are building massive... They are making massive CapEx investments. If you want... If, if you are good with your hands and comfortable in a construction site, and are willing to go 12 or 24 months and get a degree in like specialty construction as it relates to nuclear power plants, you can probably make $150,000 by the time you're 23 or 25. So there is going to be new jobs, new creation. I don't think you get in the way of this destruction. Now unfortunately, a lot of that additional margin is going to profits that companies like Apple are spending on share buybacks, or-

Kara Swisher 15:43 That's right.

Scott Galloway 15:44 ... 110 bi-

Kara Swisher 15:44 Or, or to them.

Scott Galloway 15:45 Apple spent more on share buybacks last year, I believe it was $110 billion. It's rivaling their R&D. So what does that do? It takes the existing share price up. But you could argue it's not really going back into the economy, it's going into the pockets of the 10% that own 90% of the stocks. So i- i- there is growth. It, it does result in economic growth, and should result in, in, uh, new industries with higher paying jobs. And I don't think you can get in the way of it. But i- i-... What we're really bad at here, we're really good at figuring out ways to lay off people and force them to find industries where there's growth, and create more profit and more margin. What we're really bad at is figuring out systemic-

Kara Swisher 16:24 The transition.

Scott Galloway 16:24 ... training and means to, to-

Kara Swisher 16:25 It's-

Scott Galloway 16:25 ... help give those people the runway, such that what happens is... Did you see all these farmers complaining about-

Kara Swisher 16:32 Yeah. I love... Oh, yeah. The

Narrator 16:34 Sorry, go ahead.

Scott Galloway 16:34 I mean, and no one has... It's like the world's tiniest violins. Two thirds of farmers voted for Trump, and now they're all-

Kara Swisher 16:39 Right.

Scott Galloway 16:39 ... fucking freaked out that he did-

Kara Swisher 16:39 I'm like, "Oh, we voted for racism, but not this." Yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:42 Yeah. But they're all freaked out that in fa- And they're all asking for a bailout, and these were the same people that were just horrified by a student loan bailout, right? I agree, we should have capitalism, companies should go out of business. If we have technology that puts, you know, Colbert's team out of work, or mediocre lawyers out of work, or mediocre consultants, I'm all for it. But what you need to do is tax these organizations such that you have the capital to retrain people, and not have people live in a state of fear, and not worry about not having health insurance if they're one of those consultants or bankers or whoever it is that gets laid off. That's what we're really bad at. But we are-

Kara Swisher 17:18 You also-

Scott Galloway 17:18 Sorry, go ahead.

Kara Swisher 17:18 Can I just point out? You put up something about taxing the rich. I thought it was interesting, your statistics about how we've moved from 90% to like 28%, or s-

Scott Galloway 17:27 Well, we'll talk about that when we talk about-

Kara Swisher 17:28 Okay.

Scott Galloway 17:28 ... Elon.

Kara Swisher 17:29 Right, okay.

Scott Galloway 17:30 But our taxes on corporations are the lowest they've been since 1939. And every, you know, w- with these deficits, i- it's pretty easy, folks. We gotta do one of two things. We either gotta spend less money or we gotta tax people more. Otherwise, our kids are just not gonna have, uh, uh, the benefit of the investments in public infrastructure and technology and education that we've enjoyed.

Kara Swisher 17:52 Yep, absolutely. Anyway, uh, we'll see what happens, but these tech companies will still lead the way. Uh, and when we get back, we'll find out why. We'll go on a quick break. When we come back, Trump's big tech p- dinner party. Scott, we're back. President Trump hosted a big dinner party at the White House last

Kara Swisher 18:06 week, with attendees including, uh, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, and Sam Altman. All of them were there. Wait a minute, Tim Cook was there, Sat- Sergey Brin, Sacha Na- everybody was there. One notable figure was missing, Elon Musk. Musk says he was invited, but couldn't make it, but other people say he wasn't invited. I don't care. I don't care. The guests were full of praise for the president. It was pretty grotesque to watch. Bill Gates thanked him for, quote, "Setting the tone such that we could make a major investment in the US." I think Bill Gates is doing it so he can save USAID.

Scott Galloway 18:33 Vaccine research. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 18:34 Eh, I'm okay with him. I'm guess- I'm gonna give him the only out. The rest of it was so ... They will live to regret what they're doing here, I think. Or maybe they won't. I mean, this short term gains, I think this is, this was so grotesque and it reminded me of that story I wrote in 2016 when they went up to Trump Tower and did the exact same thing, 'cause it was in their interests. Um, they're not gonna grow a back burnt- bone any bun. They're gonna keep up this shtick. It's good for their business. It was particularly gross, and especially Zuckerberg, who tried to explain himself, looked like a real toady in a room full of toadies. Um, any thoughts on this?

Scott Galloway 19:11 I thought they make, I thought they made sex work look dignified. I mean-

Kara Swisher 19:16 (laughs) You bitch. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 19:17 I think, I think paying some guy 50 bucks to suck my cock is more dignified than what these guys did.

Kara Swisher 19:23 Who do you really think, Scott? (laughs)

Scott Galloway 19:23 What is the point, Scott? What is the point of aggregating all these skills-

Kara Swisher 19:29 I know.

Scott Galloway 19:29 These guys work so hard, they're so talented. They rally mi- hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. They build these amazing products so they can become billionaires, so they can go and fellate-

Kara Swisher 19:41 I know. I was thinking that.

Scott Galloway 19:42 ... uh, an insurrectionist? I mean-

Kara Swisher 19:44 What in the fuck? And they all-

Scott Galloway 19:45 I, I unders-

Kara Swisher 19:46 ... complained about the insurrectionists.

Scott Galloway 19:47 I understand the notion of staying below the radar. Don't antagonize him. Don't say anything.

Kara Swisher 19:54 Right.

Scott Galloway 19:54 Just stay out of his way. I get it. I'm meeting... I'm having lunch with the chancellor of a iconic public college tomorrow, and they'll talk, they want to talk about a variety of things, including how they respond to Trump. And I'm like, "You are not..." And I don't, I'm, I'm loathe to even say the name, which I won't, but my basic thing is, "Don't say anything."

Kara Swisher 20:12 Right.

Scott Galloway 20:12 "Just stay out of his sights."

Kara Swisher 20:13 Right.

Scott Galloway 20:13 "Stay out of his crosshairs."

Kara Swisher 20:15 Right.

Scott Galloway 20:15 But these guys, i- Sam, Sam Harris sort of changed my life, of Making Sense, the podcaster. He said, "If you have economic security and people who love you unconditionally, you have an obligation to speak out."

Kara Swisher 20:30 Yeah, I agree.

Scott Galloway 20:31 Because so few people can. People have to worry about their economic livelihood. They have to maybe, you know, uh, uh, there, there's a lot of reasons why you may want, not want to be provocative as a younger person if you're not economically secure. And these guys will always say, "Well, it's about shareholder value."

Kara Swisher 20:49 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 20:50 "I, I'm gonna add a lot of value to Apple, 'cause I'm gonna get this contract."

Kara Swisher 20:53 I don't want tariffs, blah, blah, blah.

Scott Galloway 20:54 But you would think one of 'em-

Kara Swisher 20:56 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 20:57 ... would say, "Okay, the, the ass cancer's showing up pretty soon, Bezos, Cook. You're not young men. And are you gonna say on your deathbed, "Wha-" I would think one of them would think, "You know what? I'd like to be that guy-"

Kara Swisher 21:09 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 21:09 ... that said-

Kara Swisher 21:10 I just don't, and it's not, we're not like asking them-

Scott Galloway 21:13 Not one of 'em!

Kara Swisher 21:13 ... to fall on like-

Scott Galloway 21:14 Benioff, maybe? Who's pushed back?

Kara Swisher 21:16 No, no, no. He probably wanted to go. Um, you know, nobody. Nobody, nobody, nobody. They're just, they, all they do is fellate. That's all they do now. And I'm sort of like, I, I got, I got some texts from some of them that are like, "Ooh, yes, we're embarrassed too." I'm like, "Fuck you." Like, I, at this point, like, why have all that money if you can't at least-

Scott Galloway 21:36 That's exactly right. What's the point?

Kara Swisher 21:37 ... like, what's the point? What's the-

Scott Galloway 21:38 What's the point?

Kara Swisher 21:38 Is there nothing you could do? Look, you know, of all the people, at least Elon went out on a limb for Trump. He did something, right? He thought that he, however misguided you may think he is. Like, do any of them? Like, I guess Reid Hoff- Reid Hoffman does, and has been pretty firm about it.

Scott Galloway 21:53 But even Reid's-

Kara Swisher 21:54 Yeah, pulled back a little bit.

Scott Galloway 21:55 Reid is-

Kara Swisher 21:56 He's been quiet.

Scott Galloway 21:56 I, I think Reid is probably justifiably like worried.

Kara Swisher 21:58 He is worried. He's talking about it.

Scott Galloway 22:00 And he's, he's trying to stay out of his crosshairs right now. But the economic opportunity is not for a tech company, but for a consumer company to just in a very thoughtful, elegant way, without even saying the president's name, run commercials talking about what an important role immigrants have played, what an important role the gay community and the transgender community have played in our Defense Department. What an important role, how, how, uh, rights in America and, you know, equality (clears throat) and respect for institutions. I mean, you, you could fire up so many amazing creative agencies to have the most powerful commercials that would be very clear what you are saying. And you know what would happen? They would have a torrent of business, because the bottom line is, the people who are against this bullshit-

Kara Swisher 22:46 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 22:46 ... are the, mostly the only people who really matter in consumer America.

Kara Swisher 22:50 They are an embarrassment.

Scott Galloway 22:50 And it's educated people with disposable income.

Kara Swisher 22:51 You know what's interesting? The only people who actually are much more public are, would be celebrities, like Colbert or Ariana Grande when she won yesterday, the V- I think it was the, the MTV Music whatever, um, said, "I want to thank my therapist and the gays." (laughs) And it was just like adorable. She's adorable. Um, but it's li- literally celebrities seem to be saying things, right? And not worrying about the consequences.

Scott Galloway 23:12 Yeah, it's comedians and celebrities, but-

Kara Swisher 23:14 Yeah, I'm just saying they don't, they, they aren't, they're much more f- I would say they're much more outspoken than they've ever been. And it's not just virtue signaling. They're-

Scott Galloway 23:22 But here's the problem. It kind of doesn't fucking matter, because-

Kara Swisher 23:24 I know it doesn't.

Scott Galloway 23:25 Because, because-

Kara Swisher 23:25 It matters what these guys do. I know.

Scott Galloway 23:27 It, it-

Kara Swisher 23:27 I'm just trying to think of who speaks up.

Scott Galloway 23:28 Celebrities don't s- sway a l- W- We fall under the cold comfort of believing that America is a democracy, okay, sort of. Because the reality is, uh, the passive populace doesn't win elections. It's organized special interest groups. And technology is now so powerful and has so much money that they can kind of sway elections and sway government. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm increasingly about this notion that the only real means of fighting back at this point is if we can rally enough Americans to at least pick a time period and stop spending money.

Kara Swisher 24:01 Right. Or stopping, stopping doing things, start just saying no.

Scott Galloway 24:03 Because it's, it's these organized special interest groups that impact Washington and have all the power. And if tech, if we could figure out a way to get tech on our side, they could absolutely check back on Trump. If they all together-

Kara Swisher 24:18 They won't.

Scott Galloway 24:18 ... met in the parking lot and said-

Kara Swisher 24:19 They didn't in 2016, Scott. They won't.

Scott Galloway 24:23 I, but I just, I mean this sincerely. It's like-

Kara Swisher 24:26 I sincerely mean how many times have they been in front of the fucking president and other people don't get to be? Like how many times have we seen Mark Zuckerberg at the inauguration, Mark Zuckerberg at the White House? Mark Zuckerberg, Mar-a-Lago, Mark Zuckerberg and the stupid White House. Like enough, you've had enough face time with that fucker. So like what, why did they, why does, why didn't they have the head of Caterpillar there at least? Or something, some company that matters beyond these bunch of...

Scott Galloway 24:49 But if Bob Iger just said, "Look, uh, um, I've been around the block. Uh, you know, Disney is about American values and I'm just very uncomfortable with the idea of censorship." I think Disney+ subscriptions would triple in 60 days.

Kara Swisher 25:06 I think he'd come under the-

Scott Galloway 25:07 If Elliot Hill from Nike said, "We're about, we're about winning and part of winning is strong American institutions. We are an American company." They could do such an outstanding commercial-

Kara Swisher 25:18 Disney didn't make a comment after the vaccine thing in Florida, said nothing.

Scott Galloway 25:22 Well, I think this is, I think it's not only the right thing to do.

Kara Swisher 25:26 That's easy.

Scott Galloway 25:26 I think it's an enormous commercial opportunity for a consumer brand to just talk about American, traditional American values.

Kara Swisher 25:31 Crickets, let me say. Let me say crickets is what is happening. Um, speaking of weirdnesses and as someone who wasn't a thing, Elon Musk could become the world's first trillionaire.

Kara Swisher 25:39 He's not going to. I just, I wish we could stop saying we could like the news reports. Under a new pay package from Tesla's board, the compensation all in Tesla stock is tied to hitting ambitious targets in the next 10 years, including getting the company's market value from where it's around, just above one trillion to, which is ridiculous price anyway, to 8.5 trillion, delivering a total of 20 million vehicles, which the declining sales. It's now at its lowest rates. Putting a million robo taxis on the road and also a million, I think, uh, of those robots that don't exist or just a few of them. The board is also saying that Elon needs to develop a succession framework to earn a portion of the pay that, um, these benchmarks are just watered down versions of promises Elon's been making for years as Tech Crunch pointed out correctly. Uh, Tesla shareholders also set to vote on investing in xAI in an upcoming annual meeting. I mean, the whole thing, he should just mash all his companies together and hope for the best.

Scott Galloway 26:31 Look, it, I don't think we need trillionaires, but I don't think we should get in the way of people becoming trillionaires. I think one of the wonderful things about American capitalism is that if you take risks, you start your own companies, you, you invent something new, the literally, the upside is unlimited. And no government agency or bureaucrats is gonna tell you, is going to say to you-

Kara Swisher 26:51 Sure.

Scott Galloway 26:51 ... "Oh, you're too rich." That's fine. Have at it. I like having billionaires. I like having trillionaires. Let's talk about this specific pay package. It's saying we're going to give you options on 14% of the outstanding stock of the company, that is well outside of the range of most CEO packages, fine. He's an exceptional individual. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. In addition, the board of Tesla, which has a compensation committee to deciding the compensation package of the CEO, which by the way is the hardest thing on a board, I find, is compensation, is elected by the owners. We believe in private capital and uh, we believe in private property. So the owners of a company get to decide-

Kara Swisher 27:29 Sure.

Scott Galloway 27:29 ... what they're going to pay the CEO. So there's nothing, in my opinion, if I was on that comp committee, I would say no, it's probably more like three to 8%, not 14%. And what it's basically saying is if he increases the value of all shareholders for seven trillion, he gets a trillion dollar commission. I don't think that is totally outrageous. What we should be focused on is if somebody makes a trillion dollars, I like where we were in the '50s, '60s, that they pay an incremental marginal tax rate of 90%. So I like the idea of full body contact capitalism that motivates people to work really hard and come up with new ideas. I just think we, those people need to pay a lot more taxes rather than move to Texas and end up paying, you know, he'll end up paying about 17 or 18% if in fact he gets that money. Whereas the people working in those factories are probably paying 30 or 35%.

Kara Swisher 28:22 Okay. I want you, from, can he hit these targets? I can't imagine he can... What can he do to get to $8.5 trillion, deliver 20 million vehicles and put a million robo taxis on the road or the cars are being overwhelmed by competitors like BYD and, and others, by the way? There's two new competitors to him, I think from... I can't remember who it was. There's some really beautiful cars out there. Um, how does he do it, Scott? Whether you give it to him or not, sure, why not? I want to, you know, Kara, if you can, if you can beat, I don't know, LeBron James, you can be in the NBA. Sure. Like, I don't get it. I don't get how he gets there.

Scott Galloway 29:01 Standing here and now with BYD basically offering a, a Tesla, let's be kind, 80% of a Tesla. Some people think it's 100 or 110% of a Tesla for 40 to 60% of the price, where his autonomous driving seems to be well behind. And all these jazz hands trying to distract people from a trillion dollar market cap company that's really probably worth somewhere between 50 and 200 billion by, with bullshit like robots and Mars. And um, how he would get there, in my view, or uh, to be clear, SpaceX has monopoly. That's, you know, having 80% market share of space is really enticing. But if you just look at the act, actual numbers and what would be required to add seven trillion dollars in market cap, they're basically saying you're going to get a trillion dollars if this becomes the most valuable company in the world by a factor of two. It looks near impossible. I would take, I, I would be willing to bet a lot of money that he is never going to get a trillion, that trillion dollars. Having said that, Kara, I said the same thing seven years ago-... that Tesla could never be worth more than every automobile company combined-

Kara Swisher 30:10 Right. But that was when it was a meme stock-

Scott Galloway 30:12 ... and he would be able to launch SpaceX.

Kara Swisher 30:12 ... and he was on the upswing, right? It-

Scott Galloway 30:14 But it happened.

Kara Swisher 30:15 Right, it did.

Scott Galloway 30:16 And so (stutters) he would have to do again, what he has accomplished to date, in terms of valuation, in terms of performance, it's remarkable. In terms of the market's response to it, it's insanely, like, unbelievable. So, could, could he do it? Is it likely to happen? Highly unlikely. Was it likely he was gonna get to this point? Also highly unlikely. So-

Kara Swisher 30:40 Oh, much, much less unlikely.

Scott Galloway 30:43 You think this is much more aggressive than even what was outlawed five years ago?

Kara Swisher 30:45 I don't think... I think he's old, I think he's-

Scott Galloway 30:47 Right.

Kara Swisher 30:48 ... has some personal problems, I think he's got-

Scott Galloway 30:50 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 30:50 ... some health problems. I think he can't come up with a new trick. I think... Listen, everyone's like, "Oh, if anyone, he can." I'm like, "Can he now?" He, it... This is an in- number that's just beyond belief. It could be a meme stock. That's the only way, to me, it could happen. Or he merged SpaceX with this, and who cares about X, X.AI or the other one. Maybe if he merged them all, I guess, and then pretended it was called Tesla, I suppose.

Scott Galloway 31:16 But meme stocks have generally had oth- other than, you could argue Palantir. Is Palantir a meme stock, trading 100-

Kara Swisher 31:22 A little bit, yeah.

Scott Galloway 31:23 I don't... Generally speaking, they haven't had ... there aren't enough meme investors to-

Kara Swisher 31:28 Right.

Scott Galloway 31:28 ... justify a multi-trillion dollar market cap company.

Kara Swisher 31:30 Right, right.

Scott Galloway 31:30 But again, it all comes back to-

Kara Swisher 31:32 He needs a new product is all I'm saying, and a new bit of energy in and of himself.

Scott Galloway 31:36 I don't know. Yeah, we continue to talk about him like he's a runaway teen. He's getting AARP mail.

Kara Swisher 31:40 That's what I'm saying.

Scott Galloway 31:41 I 100% agree with you, but again, I, I don't think we're having the right conversation. And I like the idea of a kid reading someone might be a trillionaire. I wanna pay him a trillion dollars, and then I want 90% of it to go (laughs) to the US Treasury. Because here's the thing, uh, we're spending five tr- we're spending $7 trillion, we're taking in five. We have to raise taxes, we have to cut spending. So let's shelve cutting spending for right now. All roads lead to entitlement cuts, by the way. But let's talk about revenues or taxes. The key is to find taxes that are the least taxing. And what, what Israeli-American psychot- psychologist, Daniel Kahneman, discovered, he did a lot of research here, is that once you get above a certain level, no incremental happiness. If Elon Musk on that trillion dollars gets to hold onto 800 billion of it, or 200 billion of it, it's gonna make no difference in his life. In addition, and I'm going off script here, we should eliminate the exemption on trust. Because you inheriting 10 million versus 15 from Lucky, it's gonna ha-

Kara Swisher 32:48 It's not happening. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 32:48 ... it's ha- gonna make no difference in your life.

Kara Swisher 32:50 It's not happening. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 32:51 Okay, so, uh, i- i- the, the vast majority of wealth that is inherited is from a small number of people to a small number of kids. And if your kid is gonna get five million instead of seven, no one's any, no one's any less happier. So there are some fairly... When we had a society with much less income inequality, and people felt much better about America, guess what? The incremental tax rates on people making so much fucking money they couldn't spend it all, were much higher.

Kara Swisher 33:24 Right.

Scott Galloway 33:24 Anyway, I'm ranting. Lower taxes on everyone up to a million and above a million. Oh, my God, you know what? Like, progressive, all caps-

Kara Swisher 33:32 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:32 ... tax structure, and no one was any less happy.

Kara Swisher 33:34 They looked so miserable at that dinner. A- and they, plus they didn't get to go onto the new patio, the new rose garden w- it looks like such a cheap version of a Marriott. It was... It looks like a Marriott, like a medium-level Marriott.

Scott Galloway 33:47 They're prostitutes-

Kara Swisher 33:48 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 33:48 ... with a half-bottle-

Kara Swisher 33:49 Did you see that? What do you think of the rose garden club?

Scott Galloway 33:52 They're prostitutes with a half-bottle of cheap jack, of cheap bourbon, drank, condoms hanging out of their ass-

Kara Swisher 33:58 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 33:59 ... and their pimp has just said, "You've got another 11 johns tonight."

Kara Swisher 34:02 Oh, my God. All right.

Scott Galloway 34:03 They look exhausted-

Kara Swisher 34:04 Okay, okay.

Scott Galloway 34:05 ... abused, tired, and humiliated.

Kara Swisher 34:09 Okay.

Scott Galloway 34:09 They're like, "How did I end up here?" First up, eliminate... I, I hate to say it-

Kara Swisher 34:15 Okay.

Scott Galloway 34:15 ... e- eliminate ICE, just symbolically. Absolutely, uh, Department of Defense. There are so many f-

Kara Swisher 34:21 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:22 ... th- the, whoever the new president is, assuming he's not Vance is gonna have-

Kara Swisher 34:25 He's gonna spend all his time cleaning up, that's all.

Scott Galloway 34:27 There's literally gonna be-

Kara Swisher 34:28 That's what Democrats say.

Scott Galloway 34:28 ... the circus clown behind an elephant just scooping up-

Kara Swisher 34:30 Yep.

Scott Galloway 34:31 ... shit for the first three or six months.

Kara Swisher 34:32 Yeah, for the first three or six months. I agree. All right, let's go on a quick break, and when we come back, RFK Jr. continues (laughs) to create chaos. What a fucking mess. Scott, we're back. President Trump has mixed reactions to RFK Jr's heated appearance at the Senate Finance

Kara Swisher 34:46 Committee last week. Let's listen to a clip from the hearing.

Narrator 34:49 Do you, do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID?

34:54 I don't know how many died.

34:56 You're the Secretary of Health and Human Services. You don't have any idea how many Americans died from COVID?

35:03 I don't think anybody knows that because (laughs) the, there was so much data chaos coming out of the CDC.

Kara Swisher 35:10 Oh, my God, his voice just drives me... Okay, that was Senator Warner. In response, Trump said of the vaccines are, quote, "Pure and simple, they work," but also defended RFK Jr., saying he's, "A different type of guy." And he's not the only one. Several Republican senators, including Bill Cassidy and Thom Tillis, expressed concern during Kennedy's hearing. Meanwhile, RFK Jr. reportedly plans to announce that pregnant women's use of Tylenol is potentially linked to autism. Conservative... He has no proof of much of this and, in fact, um, it's the same thing with the Florida surgeon general, who said he didn't use any science when it came to deciding on the vaccines. Conservative polling firms reported, warning GOP lawmakers that only 75% of Trump voters believe vaccines save lives. Um, thoughts?

Scott Galloway 35:52 Uh, second most dangerous person in the administration is, um, Peter Navarro, who will substantially reduce our prosperity. Most dangerous person is, uh, RFK because he's... When he gets up in front of Congress and lies and says, "I'm not anti-vaccine and anyone can get a vaccine..." No, when you-

Kara Swisher 36:07 Can't.

Scott Galloway 36:08 When you cla- when you now say that it has to be under prescription or from a doctor's orders, you're gonna reduce-... the penetration of vaccines one-third to two-thirds, and you're gonna increase disease by much more than that because you'll have a bunch of kids i- i- in third grade that have measles or rubella. This is, this is arguably if this guy gains more traction and the CDC continues to be emasculated and this anti-vaccine conspiracy bullshit continues to gain traction and people are confused, even if they believe it or not-

Kara Swisher 36:38 Which it is gaining traction, by the way.

Scott Galloway 36:39 If you don't make it easy for people to get vaccines, fewer people are gonna get vaccines and more kids are gonna have their limbs cut off from advanced measles. This is just... It's, it's one thing, Europe has not prospered because they haven't grown, but they make good decisions, they're generally a smart people. We are growing and yet we've decided how do we-

Kara Swisher 36:59 It's suicide.

Scott Galloway 37:00 ... how do we take a giant step back? This is, this is insane. I g- I do have to be honest though, I was really proud that with Senator Warner, he's fantastic. I wish he would run for President. I'm... I thought Senator Bennet was good. I thought Senator Warn- Elizabeth Warren was really good. Senator Cantwell. I also thought Senator Cassidy-

Kara Swisher 37:17 Except he had-

Scott Galloway 37:18 ... was actually quite-

Kara Swisher 37:19 He had to-

Scott Galloway 37:20 ... deft.

Kara Swisher 37:20 I know, but he had to win because he had been the one that vo- had, wasn't gonna vote for him, and he would have been the deciding one and then he did, he got pressured from Trump.

Scott Galloway 37:28 They all f- they all claim, they all claim to have concerns and then they all vote-

Kara Swisher 37:32 That's what I mean-

Scott Galloway 37:33 ... for the, for what Trump wants.

Kara Swisher 37:33 ... that's all I'm saying. I'm not gonna give Cassidy-

Scott Galloway 37:34 But he did say-

Kara Swisher 37:36 He did. He was good.

Scott Galloway 37:36 He, he did say, "Look. You told me that you were gonna support vaccines and you don't seem to be doing this." So I thought he... Let me put it this way. He's, he's done a whole hell of a lot more, but if you're, if you wanna talk about a lasting legacy of death, disease and disability, this is Bobby Kennedy. And also to the President's credit, he did say in a pr- in a press or after that, "I think some vaccines are good." I mean, it's a start.

Kara Swisher 38:02 Except he doesn't get them and rid of them. That he d- it doesn't matter. Again, it's like Cassie, I don't care. Get rid of-

Scott Galloway 38:05 Well have you heard this Florida surgeon general?

Kara Swisher 38:07 Oh, he's insane.

Scott Galloway 38:08 Equating vaccine mandates with slavery?

Kara Swisher 38:10 Yes. I, he is, he is so stupid, I c- I don't e- he's so stupid and then was, was asked about the science and he goes, "I didn't use science." I don't... I just think parents should be able to... I think really interestingly, like someone a- had a question on- online and my brother, the doctor answered, um, like if you get a vaccine what do you care if they do? Like, it's a public health issue. You get other... There are im- immuno-compromised people who can't get vaccines for one. Secondly, if you make them hard to get and more expense... I- insurance... If the CDC doesn't back them, insurance companies don't pay for them, and therefore poor people don't get them. People with money can get them, as always. But people who don't have means can't get them. And then lastly, it's a public health danger because also ch- little babies don't get vaccines for what? A year and a half? Two years? I c- I have so many children I don't remember, but there's a, there's a period of time when babies... That's why when you go to like any cemetery of, of before we had vaccines, you see so many baby graves, right? 'Cause they died of all kinds of diseases we have eradicated and now it's back. I- it's, uh, just there's so many reasons to do it, um, that will protect everybody. But it's such a typical Trump thing.

Scott Galloway 39:23 I feel as if, quote unquote, "The worm has turned against RFK Jr."

Kara Swisher 39:27 Yes. Seems like it, but he's still there.

Scott Galloway 39:29 Do you-

Kara Swisher 39:29 Trump doesn't let people go.

Scott Galloway 39:31 So you think he's a-

Kara Swisher 39:31 Ah, people... Trump doesn't... He doesn't want to admit he was wrong. I think that's a bigger issue.

Scott Galloway 39:35 Right.

Kara Swisher 39:35 I think he's-

Scott Galloway 39:36 You think his job is safe?

Kara Swisher 39:38 I think it would take a lot for him to get... He's done a lot and he, and I think a lot. I don't know. I just, I just think Trump is just sticks to his guns. He doesn't... I don't think Trump cares. I think he's an old man and he could g- and he was always a selfish prick and he's gonna remain a selfish prick to the day he dies. That's all. Doesn't care. Doesn't care about public health, doesn't care about people, poor people, doesn't care about like... I don't think he thinks about one day in his life. He thinks about whether people are booing for him or cheering at the US Open. By the way they were booing mostly. Um, anyway, let's move on. Last thing. Anthropic has agreed to a one point... This is a really interesting case, I really wanna know what you think about

Kara Swisher 40:13 this. $1.5 billion settlement with a group of authors and publishers. That's after a judge ruled the company illegally acquired millions of copyrighted books. They were, they nicked them as they say. The settlement, $3,000 per work for about 500,000 authors is the largest payout in the history of US copyright cases. By settling, Anthropic avoids a trial that could have carried damages in the hundreds of billions. Also, I bet there were some nice emails around. All this comes as Anthropic just closed a $13 billion funding round tripling its valuation to $183 billion. Um, what do you think this means for other AI companies? I'd just love your thoughts on this 'cause, you know, they, they definitely probably... There was probably a lot of stuff would be my guess and they thought, "Let's get this out of our way, we just got this funding. We can just fork over this money as part of it." And it gets... It goes away.

Scott Galloway 40:59 I think you have a, a better grasp of IP and journalists and books. I want you to take this and I'll comment on it.

Kara Swisher 41:05 Okay. Um, I, I, you know, I th- I may have been in this group. I don't, I didn't do anything but, um, I have found my books stolen by these people and they d- they...

Scott Galloway 41:13 Yeah. Me too.

Kara Swisher 41:13 Maybe they paid for one copy, I guess, I suppose that's what they did or something like that.

Scott Galloway 41:18 Oh no, they don't have to buy it.

Kara Swisher 41:20 They, right, exactly.

Scott Galloway 41:21 Or maybe they buy the au- well, yeah, maybe they do. You're right.

Kara Swisher 41:23 They buy one copy.

Scott Galloway 41:23 Maybe they buy, have to buy one.

Kara Swisher 41:24 One copy, right?

Scott Galloway 41:25 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 41:26 It's such, it's so ridiculous the kind of stuff they're stealing and it's, and, and to me if we have these US copyright cases they should... Copyright should matter here just like it did YouTube back in the day. Um, YouTube figured it out and ended up paying people and it's turned out to be a great business, you know. You don't talk about YouTube stealing but you did forever. Why would you build your business on stealing other peoples' content and then remaking it and, and, and putting... You know, these people worked on these things, they deserve to be paid. If you don't you're a shoplifter. That's the only thing I can think of and I suspect they settled 'cause I'll bet there was emails, I'll bet there was some proof of what they did and they would have been on the hook for... This would have been over for this company had, had it gone to trial, would be my guess probably.

Scott Galloway 42:10 Yeah we, uh, the incumbents benefit from the illusion of complexity like what's crawling, what's i- actual IP infringement, what isn't? No, it's pretty simple. I- th- this industry needs to adopt...... some sort of similar construct to what musicians do. And that is, if you play, if you're KROQ in Los Angeles and you're playing the B-52s, and e- every year they say, "Okay, you can run..." It's very seamless. You just track it. You played B-52 songs 1,100 times. You have to send Warner Brothers or whoever is the publisher of the B-52s, you have to send them $1,100 to a rights management group. The rights management group then sends out checks to everyone from Madonna to Luke Combs, and that's how they make money. And they say, "Okay, we have an infrastructure that's seamless, frictionless. People can use our content, but we get paid for it." These guys have plenty of money to pay for these rights. All they need is a tracking mechanism that says, "Okay, Kara's books informed us on this many queries, so she gets X amount of money." And we send it to a rights group who then distributes the IP, distributes the payments. This is a, this is a system they could easily prop up, but instead they pretend it's too difficult because they'd rather just steal it. So I like this because it sets a precedent that you c- they d- these companies have committed IP theft. That, that's what it says. It says that they have taken something that has economic value and they owe these authors. The next step that I think is, is really what we really need is, again, what I wanted the New York Times to do, is I wanted us all to get together and bind together as one group and then negotiate Microsoft against Google to see who got to crawl our stuff and who didn't. Because the biggest mistake we made back then was to just let them crawl it, thinking it was gonna send us more traffic. And we'd s- we'd serve them banner ads, and that just didn't work. So this is a moment in time. I think this is a step in the right direction, but I still think we gotta get to a point where it's like, okay, when your book comes out, when your TV show comes out, when your podcast comes out, we have a means of tracking what percentage of it in terms of nuance and context or direct, direct data or direct quotes from this book have been used across all of our queries, and we're gonna give you a certain percentage of our profits, and we're gonna figure out a mechanism for figuring out who gets what. It just, these guys could figure it out with a bunch of economists and a- a... What we don't have is on our side, we don't have strong representation. We don't have someone... I mean, you know our idea. We wanted Barry Diller to do this, right?

Kara Swisher 44:50 Yeah. Absolutely.

Scott Galloway 44:50 To get everyone from-

Kara Swisher 44:51 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 44:51 ... Penguin Portfolio Random House to Disney to Condé Nast to Hearst to Dow Jones, and then basically say, "All right. It's a bidding war, and who gave- or gives us the biggest slice of their pie-"

Kara Swisher 45:02 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 45:02 "... gets access to this data." And maybe it's both. Maybe we do it for both for everybody, Anthropic, Llama. But there's enough money here to go around.

Kara Swisher 45:09 Theft. It's theft. Let me just say, I'm just... I just went to Amazon, right? Remember I complained when my book came out that they were ripping it off? Someone... So the first thing that results when you do "Kara Swisher" is my burn book, and then my book, There Must Be A Pony In Here Somewhere, and before that, aol.com. Those are all Kara Swisher books. Then right away, "Kara Swisher: The Fearless Voice of Tech Speaking Up, Asking Questions and Making A Difference," like as if I wrote it, like it is by some fake name. And then there's "Kara Swisher: Tech's Queen Bee With Sting." And then there's "Kara Swisher: Navigating The Digital Era: Insights And Perspectives From A Ta- Trailblazing Journalist." I cooperated on none of it. By somebody named Scott P. Monday. It d- that's all AI. They're thieves is what they are. They're thieving my stuff. And I paid for... I, I paid for it with my time and my money, and I should get all the money related to my stuff. And same thing with you.

Scott Galloway 45:59 But what happens...

Kara Swisher 45:59 Let me look up Scott Galloway now, uh...

Scott Galloway 46:01 Well, they're gonna start crawling our podcasts-

Kara Swisher 46:04 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 46:04 ... and they'll be able to say-

Kara Swisher 46:05 Yes.

Scott Galloway 46:06 ... "Put out a Pivot-like contact, same voices, same feel, same banter, same dick jokes-"

Kara Swisher 46:11 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 46:12 "... but cover business..."

Kara Swisher 46:14 Not the same dick jokes, but...

Scott Galloway 46:14 "But cover business in Turkey-"

Kara Swisher 46:16 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 46:16 "... and they'll be able to spin it up." And-

Kara Swisher 46:19 Oh, yeah.

Scott Galloway 46:19 I'm actually down with that as long as we get paid for it.

Kara Swisher 46:22 Well, except for "A Scott Galloway Biography: Honest Reflections On Being A Real Man And Dad In An Uncertain Ever-Changing World," a new 2025 memoir from you. I don't know if you know that. Um, you know, it looks like... Looks like that's yours. Then okay, incl- "Biography Of Steve- Of Scott Galloway Including Exercises For Notes On Being A Man." They're already making an exercise book for you.

Scott Galloway 46:46 Hmm.

Kara Swisher 46:47 "The Algebra Of Wealth Workbook: Fix In Scott Galloway's Teachings Into Your Mind." They... E. Sue McDonald wrote that, whoever the fuck that is. Uh, "Scott Galloway, The Untold Stor-" Oh, I'm gonna get that one. "The Untold Story Of Scott Galloway." (laughs) It's just...

Scott Galloway 47:00 "There's nothing that hasn't been told."

Kara Swisher 47:02 I mean, seriously, fuck you. Like-

Scott Galloway 47:06 This is Amazon?

Kara Swisher 47:07 Amazon. That's just Amazon. All right. We're gonna move on. We're, we're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore. That's what I say.

Scott Galloway 47:12 Behind the music.

Kara Swisher 47:13 Behind the music.

Scott Galloway 47:13 I just need a heroin habit.

Kara Swisher 47:15 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 47:16 I want to hook up with a former supermodel.

Kara Swisher 47:18 I just... I, I would order the biography and see what's on read from it. Um, all right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Scott? Uh, I guess I'll start with wins and fails. Um, I think, um...

Kara Swisher 47:31 Gosh, the fail... You gotta read the story in the New York Times about JP Morgan enabling the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein. It's an investigation. Uh, it's astonishing how much they were warned about, uh, all this money, this... They ignored red flags, sus- spec- uh, suspicious activity. Executives were con- uh, were concerned and they continued to, uh, let Jeffrey Epstein use their bank to, to do his nef- And they k- kind of knew it. They kind of knew it. And so I just think that, that kind of enabling. I'm sort of in an enabling point of view right now, especially with those tech......assholes sucking t- Trump's dick, as you say. Um, and my win is, uh, E. Jean Carroll's, uh, an appeals court upheld her $83 million judgment against Trump. She'll probably get the five. The 83 mill is a different story, um, but, um, they're gonna ask to go to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court has been very Trumpy lately. It just allowed ICE to make indiscriminate stops in LA, temporarily at least, up- upturning another federal court judge's order not to do that. So it's gotta go to... They're gonna ask the Second... I was talking to the lawyer for E. Jean Carroll, Roberta, uh, Kaplan, and she said they, they'll ask the s- entire Second Circuit to reconsider, and if, and then what? They'll ask, uh, the Supreme Court to decide this. Uh, I think he'll probably have to pay at least part of the money to her, and she deserves it. And I think that's great. I hope he has to pay at least someone for his behavior at some point. Um, and then the last very quick things, I don't know, Scott, there's actually really also another great story in the New York Times about how your zodiac sign is 2,000 years out of date. Do you know that? I'm not a Sagittarius. I'm a... Let me tell you what I am. It's another thing called a... There's an earth wobble, that our Earth has ch- has moved and the zodiac signs are very out of date. And I have to put your birthday. Can you, will you say your birthday publicly? I think you know, right?

Scott Galloway 49:27 Uh, it's November the 3rd.

Kara Swisher 49:28 Okay, I'll look it up wh-

Scott Galloway 49:29 Election Day.

Kara Swisher 49:30 Oh, okay. Um, so the, mine is now this thing called, hold on, Oph- Oph- Ophiuchus. I'm an Ophiuchus, the 13th constellation.

Scott Galloway 49:40 Never once heard that about you.

Kara Swisher 49:41 Ophiuchus means serpent bearer in ancient Greece. That's me.

Scott Galloway 49:44 Hmm.

Kara Swisher 49:45 So I'm not Sagittarius. I'm Ophiuchus, which is the 13th constellation. They just decided to do 12 because of the month. All right, I'm gonna put yours in while you tell yours, and I'll tell you what your actual zodiac sign is.

Scott Galloway 49:56 Uh, I actually have two wins, and I'm hoping that, uh, our team can pull together a mashup, but I thought the senators at the, I think it was the Senate Finance Committee where

Narrator 50:05 Yeah, finance, mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 50:05 ...I forget, oddly enough, testified. I, people are very cynical about, uh, our elected officials. I think Senators Cassidy, uh, Warren, Cantwell, Bennett, uh, Warner, um, Sanders, I thought they were outstanding. Um, and they were not taking prisoners. This is a serious issue. And we elect these people to prevent a tragedy of the commons and think long term. And there's nothing that can better prevent a tragedy of the commons and is more long term than vaccines. And these guys, in my view, they just brought it. I thought they were outstanding.

Kara Swisher 50:39 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:40 And also-

Kara Swisher 50:41 They did their job.

Scott Galloway 50:41 ...it was clear that, uh, Senate offices continue to attract incredibly impressive staff and aides, because these guys came ready to play. Their facts were on point. They had charts. Uh, I mean, it's just, uh, it's the, you know, the team with the best players wins, but I thought there were really talented people behind the scenes pulling together this data for our outstanding elected leaders. So that was my win. My other win was, I was thinking about, it's about to be, what is it, the 24, um, year anniversary of September the 11th, and I just want to reflect on that for a minute. Um, I was in New York when it happened, and my ex called me. We had split up about a year before, but we were still good friends. She called me and said, "Can you come over?" And I said, "Sure." She said, "The, the World Trade Center's on fire." And we went over and it was on fire. She had a huge deck overlooking the World Trade Center, about a mile north of it. And then we saw a second plane disappear behind the second tower and come out the other end, and right then we knew it was a terrorist attack. And the flood of people coming up 6th Avenue. And I remember the radio, they came over the radio and said there's 23 planes that are unaccounted for. I remember thinking like, "Am I in a building that's too tall? (laughs) Should I get down to the ground?" And for the next several days, two things struck out. It was, it was the quietest Manhattan has ever been. No honking. Occasionally you'd see someone on the street on the cellphone crying. But other than that, no one was talking, no one was saying anything. It was very strange. No, it was very... It was like we were at a... And appropriately, uh, it was as if the city was in mourning. The thing that really struck me, and I will remember for a long time and serves as sort of, marks the, um, event, was I went to Union Square to that memorial and there was this tiny couple. They must have been like four foot 10, uh, in very cheap clothing, Ukrainian. They were passing out flyers similar to the flyers you get when someone has lost their dog, and it was a picture of this, you know, of course this beautiful young man who was a waiter at the Windows of the World, and they thought they might find him. They were out walking around trying to find their son, right? Very upsetting. And then the reason I bring it up as a win is that it really did show that our reach is far and our memory is long. If you think about the hunt for Osama bin Laden, it started in the '90s with criminal charges, and we had some early setbacks including bin Laden's escape from Tora Bora in 2001. And then with some key intelligence breakthroughs and some intelligence officers that would not give up, we uh, tracked a, we tracked a courier to Abbottabad and, and then it culminated in this incredible SEAL raid in, uh, May of 2011 which ended in bin Laden's death. And in addition, this left a treasure trove of intelligence files and spurred critical retrospection, uh, on foreign and domestic intelligence operations. And I just, I take huge pride in the, in our security apparatus, our Defense Department, our incredible special ops. I love the idea that the last thought that ran through this guy's, uh, head before we put a bullet in his eyes is that, um, we had found him. And it was also, I would argue, the last time America really felt like it was unified. And it was just such an-

Kara Swisher 53:59 That's very powerful.

Scott Galloway 53:59 ... incredible, uh, uh, demonstration of persistence, resilience, our intelligence apparatus, our bravery.Um, and, uh, uh, uh, and I love... My favorite visual memorial in history is each year they light up two beams into the sky, r- right where the, uh, Twin Towers were. But there were just so many people who came together to, um, I would like to think, um, give some, some semblance of closure, uh, to the people who lost people and to demonstrate that America... You know, again, our reach is far and our memory is long. But I just wanted to comment on, uh, the 24-year anniversary of, uh, September 11th for... If you're in New York, it really, it really stands out as a big moment.

Kara Swisher 54:50 Do you know where Amanda was? Underneath the towers. She was in a subway going down there.

Scott Galloway 54:54 Oh, really? Did she-

Kara Swisher 54:55 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:55 Did she know what was going on?

Kara Swisher 54:56 The subway stopped... No, the subway stopped and filled with smoke. She thought she was gonna die and didn't know what... Nobody knew and they, they managed to get them out and get up in the street and far enough away that it didn't... Before it fell and stuff like that, so one of them fell and so-

Scott Galloway 55:09 Oh, one, one of the strange things about 9/11 was-

Kara Swisher 55:11 It was terrifying, I'm sure.

Scott Galloway 55:12 ... they had that hospital and they, they fired it up and said, "Get ready." And the thing was, you either died or you got off scot-free. There were actually very few injuries.

Kara Swisher 55:20 Right. Yeah, uh, it's-

Scott Galloway 55:20 But-

Kara Swisher 55:21 ... a tragedy.

Scott Galloway 55:21 Yeah, we lost, we lost something like 350 firefighters, lost about 3,000 people and another-

Kara Swisher 55:26 And continue to from the cleanup.

Scott Galloway 55:28 And another 4,500 people have died from, um-

Kara Swisher 55:31 Yeah, cleanup.

Scott Galloway 55:31 Uh, yeah, from, from, uh, 9/11-related illnesses, um-

Kara Swisher 55:36 Right. And who knows who was down there who would actually... You know. Anyway.

Scott Galloway 55:40 But my, my emotionally manipulative moment as I... If you really wanna, like, feel like emotional, go listen to the calls from the people on the planes who knew that-

Kara Swisher 55:47 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 55:47 ... that was it. All of 'em, none of 'em called to say, "Take care of my affairs." Or-

Kara Swisher 55:51 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 55:52 "There's money in the banana stand."

Kara Swisher 55:53 "Buy some stock."

Scott Galloway 55:54 Or, "I've, I never told you how much I'm pissed off." They all said the same thing, "I'm just calling to say I love you."

Kara Swisher 55:58 "I love you." Yep.

Scott Galloway 55:59 Really gripping.

Kara Swisher 56:00 Very gripping.

Scott Galloway 56:00 Really gripping. Anyways.

Kara Swisher 56:01 Good one, Scott Galloway.

Scott Galloway 56:03 Our fine, our fine public servants, our elected senators, uh, I thought did an outstanding job at that hearing.

Kara Swisher 56:09 Yep.

Scott Galloway 56:09 And it has been 24 years, uh, that unfortunately because of, because of tragedy, I felt like we were a nation. But, uh, I think the, the, the nation really did pull together and demonstrate a great deal of excellence post, um-

Kara Swisher 56:22 Yep.

Scott Galloway 56:22 ... post 9/11.

Kara Swisher 56:22 And let's guess who was the one person who told lies about it and said he was there and said fake things about people of, uh, of, of, of descent from, uh, Muslims. One person said terrible things and he's the president of the United States. I'm not gonna... But anyway.

Scott Galloway 56:37 Oh, this is when he said they're celebrating New Jersey.

Kara Swisher 56:39 Yes and also that he was down there, all this stuff. Anyway, we've got to finish up, but just so you know, Scott, you're a Libra, not a Scorpio.

Scott Galloway 56:45 Really?

Kara Swisher 56:46 Yes.

Scott Galloway 56:46 I like being a Scorpio. It means I'm an asshole, but I'm interesting.

Kara Swisher 56:49 You're now a Libra, so just, just remember you're a Libra, my friend. You go look, I'll send you the link, you're a Libra. Sorry, you're gonna have to rethink your whole life. Anyway, I'm an Oophcauppaqo, I can't even pronounce it. I'm the 13th constellation.

Scott Galloway 57:01 I think I have a sweater made from the height of that.

Kara Swisher 57:04 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 57:05 Anyway.

Kara Swisher 57:05 Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe this week, I spoke with historian, New Yorker staff writer, and Harvard University professor Jill Lepore about her new book, We The People. It's a giant book about the history of the Constitution. Let's listen to a clip.

Narrator 57:25 Trump and Trumpism are also a product of a world where the Constitution became unamendable. I mean, after the ERA, the amendment that Americans most seriously considered in the '70s and '80s was the Balanced Budget Amendment, which had like ERA about 80% popular approval, like say around 1979 or so. There's just a lot of people who are really worried about federal government spending. So that, um, essentially Constitutional frustration of a large segment of, of the American public, I think Trump tapped into that.

Kara Swisher 58:00 Yes, the unamendable Constitution. We had some good ones, but not now. Okay, uh, it's worth listening to. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out.

Scott Galloway 58:13 Today's show was produced by Laura Naimi, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Kate Gallagher. Ernie Entertot entered this episode. Jim Mackle edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Broz, Miss Averia and Dan Shalon. Nishak Karaz, Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a great rest of the week.