PivotKara Swisher Slams Tech CEOs’ “Grotesque” Dinner with Trump | Pivot
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
120 min read · 23,809 words- 0:00 – 0:48
Intro
- KSKara Swisher
It was particularly gross, and especially Zuckerberg, who tried to explain himself, looked like a real toady in a room full of todies.
- SGScott Galloway
I thought they made sex work look dignified.
- NANarrator
(instrumental music)
- KSKara Swisher
Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
- SGScott Galloway
And I'm Scott Galloway.
- KSKara Swisher
Well, hello, Scott. Do you have your shirt on today?
- SGScott Galloway
You know, why not?
- KSKara Swisher
You know-
- SGScott Galloway
Why not?
- KSKara Swisher
... that people seemed to like that quite a bit, and then some people didn't. But a lot of people did, more than they, they think they're used to at this point.
- SGScott Galloway
I think it's quite polarizing.
- KSKara Swisher
Is it?
- SGScott Galloway
I think it gives people hope when they're 80 they can look 79.
- KSKara Swisher
We've got a lot to get to today, including Trump's dinner with the tech bros and Tesla offering Elon a massive new pay package. But
- 0:48 – 10:17
Trump’s Department of War Rebrand
- KSKara Swisher
first, uh, Trump is rebranding the Department of Defense as the Department of War, restoring a name last used in the 1940s. Let's listen to him explain the rebrand in the Oval Office last week.
- NANarrator
So we won the First World War, we won the Second World War, we won everything before that and in between, and then we decided to go woke and we changed the name to Department of Defense. So, we're going Department of War.
- KSKara Swisher
That's fucking ridiculous, but Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of War, a- as we're now being asked to call him, which I refuse, took it further. Let's listen.
- NANarrator
We're gonna go on offense, not just on defense, maximum lethality, not tepid legality, violent effect, not politically correct. We're gonna raise up warriors, not just defenders.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh my God. I, I don't even know what to say. He has such a small penis. All right, I'll note now, the Department of War is just a secondary title for the Defense Department. Official name change would require an act of Congress, and while Trump is downplaying the price tag of his name change, reports suggest it could, rebrand could cost billions, just even changing, like, all the, the logos and stuff like that. Um, I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Um, and then over the weekend, Trump posted a very controversial thing, "Chicago's about to find out why it's called the Department of War." So he's always using a name that was incredibly violent to a U.S. city that's done nothing to him. Um, this idea of maximum lethality, violent effect, offense not defense, going woke? I- I mean, the whole thing is just insane, I think, but I don't know. What do you think, from a branding perspective?
- SGScott Galloway
Well, it's just not accurate. Um, first off, the- there's, they're trying to solve a problem that doesn't need solving. The U.S. Defense Department and our... Th- th- there is no one more lethal than the United States Marine SEALs, Special Ops, CIA. I mean, we can deliver more lethality anywhere in the world than any entity in history. So the notion somehow that it needs some sort of rebranding to, to give this performative, um, you know, masculine weirdness. No, that's not masculinity, that's little dick weirdness. And this, unfortunately this attempt to create some sort of illusion of machoness is making us less safe, because one of the things they're doing is saying to transgender people who have served our nation proudly and competently, "We're just gonna kick you out in some attempt to show that we're tough." It's also not accurate. The- the- the- we changed the name for a reason, and that is, conquest was in fact a way you developed economic security and prosperity back in the 15th, 16th, 17th century and before that. When the nation's largest powers developed (laughs) the bomb, it was clear that trying to invade Russia or Russia trying to invade a democratic nation could result in nuclear Armageddon, so we reconfigured our, our policies around the military and we accurately and justifiably changed the name to Defense. And modern warfare, the reality of modern warfare is the following. It's about cyber and space domains, it's about information warfare, it's about economic sanctions, and it's about diplomacy, and-
- KSKara Swisher
And training.
- SGScott Galloway
... also, a really good Defense Department is about deterrent. And that is, when Hamas tries to inspire a five-front war by going in and butchering people in, in Israel, and Biden deploys two carrier strike forces, he's there to tell the Iranian proxies to sit the fuck down, not to invade Iran.
- KSKara Swisher
No.
- SGScott Galloway
It, it, NATO, which is arguably the largest military force in the world outside of the U.S., is there to present, to keep in check the Soviet sphere. We're not, we're not planning to invade Russia. So defense is the right term, and even on practical levels, it hurts us because our Defense Department does a lot of recruiting at NYU. Um, the CIA is a big recruiter, the NSA is a big recruiter, the Armed Services are a big recruiter. And l- do you think more people are inclined to consider going to work for the Defense Department or the Department of War?
- KSKara Swisher
The War Department is so
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
And when you show up with representatives trying to strike a deal or negotiate, just saying, "Hi, I'm here from the Department of War," it reflects this aggressive, faux macho culture where he's threatening to take over Canada and Greenland, and it further alienates our enemies and convinces them they have a need to bind together and form a unified force against us.
- KSKara Swisher
Against us, right. So here's the thing. One- first of all, let's keep in mind that Donald Trump has never served in the military and got out 'cause of bone spurs. Let's never forget that.
- SGScott Galloway
That's right.
- KSKara Swisher
And this idea that we decided to go woke, we didn't win the Second World War. We were brought into these wars and actually settled them, is what we did. We didn't like-
- SGScott Galloway
That's right.
- KSKara Swisher
... go on offensive, uh, for these wars. And s- uh, just, and then Pete Hegseth is s- so, such small dick energy. He can't... By the way, speaking of not being able to do a pull-up-He barely could do one, just-
- SGScott Galloway
That's unfair. That, just to be clear.
- KSKara Swisher
Not unfair. Not unfair. He-
- SGScott Galloway
It was a challen- no, no, no, no, no. You're referring to a challenge-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, from Kennedy.
- SGScott Galloway
... which I'm gonna do-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
... where it's 100 push-ups and 50 pull-ups-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
... and that was his 50th, which was terrible form. But Pete Se- Secretary, Secretary of State-
- KSKara Swisher
He's in good shape.
- SGScott Galloway
... is actually in great shape. So is, so is RFK Jr.
- KSKara Swisher
Absolutely.
- 10:17 – 18:06
US Tech Companies Gain $420B
- KSKara Swisher
gains lifted their total value to $21 trillion, making them the third of the S&P 500. You have referenced this many times. Well, one, uh, one cause of the jump was Google's antitrust win in the US. The company is facing a new 3.5, $4 or $5 billion fine in the EU for anti-competitive practices, not off the hook. President Trump threatened the EU with investigation that could lead to higher tariffs over the fine, whatever. Any prediction here for, what, the rest of the year? You know, you h- you did pick Google as you noted. Um, but this is a lot. This is, like, a little too much of the S&P when we should, as you said last week, focused on the other 400 companies, not these seven companies, right?
- SGScott Galloway
Everything from the tariffs to, um, you know, what's going on with this new AI bill that basically gives them free rein is an, is essentially a transfer of wealth from the 490 traditional, or more traditional companies in the S&P, to the Magnificent Ten. And I had dinner, um, with a friend of mine who works at Apollo, and he said something just fascinating. He said that if, to justify the current valuations of the AI-centered companies, specifically the Magnificent Ten, it implies that they're gonna be able to find an incremental trillion dollars in revenues or efficiencies from their clients, right? What that means is, okay, if we buy more NVIDIA chip and have enterprise licenses with Anthropic or OpenAI, we'll be able to cut a trillion dollars worth of cost. So far, I would argue, the vast majority is coming from efficiencies, which is Latin for cutting your legal expenses...Yeah. Uh, uh, I talked to a Fortune 500 company CEO last week. He thinks that this year they're gonna reduce their legal expenses by a third, and next year-
- KSKara Swisher
Wow.
- SGScott Galloway
... by another third.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Right? So it, one of two things is gonna happen. (clears throat) If you think about a trillion dollars in, quote unquote, "savings," right? And there are 150 million Americans who work, it's only 150 million, and assume half that industry is immune, somewhat, from AI. Chiropractors, plumbers, you know-
- KSKara Swisher
Dentists.
- SGScott Galloway
... masseuses, whoever it is, right? Hairdressers. They're somewhat immune from AI. Let's assume that half the market, and that's probably generous, is, uh, susceptible to these, quote unquote, "efficiencies or cost cuts in AI," which is Latin for I, you need less lawyers, consultants, whoever, right? It's just a huge destruction. Producers, the 192 people that are about to be laid off from the Colbert Show as he takes six to a podcast. If you assume a load factor and salary of 100,000, a trillion dollars is 10 million jobs. 10 million jobs from a universe of 75 million is about a 15% destruction in employment. A 15% destruction in employment in any industry over the next 24 to 36 months is literally Armageddon. That may not sound like a lot, but that means that industry is, is in a state a chaos. So one of two things is gonna happen. Either these companies' valuations are gonna get cut in half, or we're gonna have massive employment destruction across a small number of industries. Now someone's, would say, "Scott, there's a door three, and that it creates incremental opportunities-"
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
"... and incremental revenue."
- KSKara Swisher
Always say that.
- SGScott Galloway
I, I don't see any company saying, "Oh, we're putting out a new car because of AI that's making us more money." I don't see L'Oreal going, "We've launched new moisturizers using AI, and it's created new markets for us." What you're seeing is big companies are saying-
- KSKara Swisher
Efficiencies.
- SGScott Galloway
... "We're gonna, we're gonna starch out a lot of costs with AI." So which is it? Either these companies are gonna get cut in half, or we're gonna see a massive... And maybe th- that's capitalism. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Or we're gonna see a massive destruction and reduction in cost in the means of production, which is Latin for massive layoffs in certain industries.
- KSKara Swisher
I actually do you say it's a bad thing, 'cause those are consumers who don't spend, right? Those are the, the, cre-
- SGScott Galloway
Fair point.
- KSKara Swisher
It, it's a, it's a problematic situation if people feel... You know, uh, look, uh, every tech person, anytime you say, they're always like, "Every tech change has created more wealth."
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay, let's see that. What is it? Explain to us-
- SGScott Galloway
Well, it's shareholder wealth right now.
- KSKara Swisher
It's shareholder wealth. That's correct.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
It's stock wealth. And so the question is like, you remember we had... I'm not gonna say who it was. We had, Scott and I had, uh, um, sort of a drinks with someone. And he was saying, remember he said he was gonna cut his software people from 6,000 to 2,000, or some number like that? It was some massive number. Um, and it, that was about a year ago, like noticing efficiencies. But again, it didn't make a better product or a new product, or move into new areas. It wasn't... It was only just cutting people. That really hasn't-
- SGScott Galloway
Well, I'll make the mo- I'll, I'll do the straw man. So the average... In 1995, the average profit margin of the S&P 500 was about 5%. Today, it's roughly 11%. So the average profits have more than doubled. That should imply that they, in fact, have more money and the bar for green lighting new products, new ideas, new factories has been lowered. And they are building massive... They are making massive CapEx investments. If you want... If, if you are good with your hands and comfortable in a construction site, and are willing to go 12 or 24 months and get a degree in like specialty construction as it relates to nuclear power plants, you can probably make $150,000 by the time you're 23 or 25. So there is going to be new jobs, new creation. I don't think you get in the way of this destruction. Now unfortunately, a lot of that additional margin is going to profits that companies like Apple are spending on share buybacks, or-
- KSKara Swisher
That's right.
- SGScott Galloway
... 110 bi-
- KSKara Swisher
Or, or to them.
- SGScott Galloway
Apple spent more on share buybacks last year, I believe it was $110 billion. It's rivaling their R&D. So what does that do? It takes the existing share price up. But you could argue it's not really going back into the economy, it's going into the pockets of the 10% that own 90% of the stocks. So i- i- there is growth. It, it does result in economic growth, and should result in, in, uh, new industries with higher paying jobs. And I don't think you can get in the way of it. But i- i-... What we're really bad at here, we're really good at figuring out ways to lay off people and force them to find industries where there's growth, and create more profit and more margin. What we're really bad at is figuring out systemic-
- KSKara Swisher
The transition.
- SGScott Galloway
... training and means to, to-
- 18:06 – 25:39
Trump’s Big Tech Dinner
- KSKara Swisher
week, with attendees including, uh, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, and Sam Altman. All of them were there. Wait a minute, Tim Cook was there, Sat- Sergey Brin, Sacha Na- everybody was there. One notable figure was missing, Elon Musk. Musk says he was invited, but couldn't make it, but other people say he wasn't invited. I don't care. I don't care. The guests were full of praise for the president. It was pretty grotesque to watch. Bill Gates thanked him for, quote, "Setting the tone such that we could make a major investment in the US." I think Bill Gates is doing it so he can save USAID.
- SGScott Galloway
Vaccine research. (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
Eh, I'm okay with him. I'm guess- I'm gonna give him the only out. The rest of it was so ... They will live to regret what they're doing here, I think. Or maybe they won't. I mean, this short term gains, I think this is, this was so grotesque and it reminded me of that story I wrote in 2016 when they went up to Trump Tower and did the exact same thing, 'cause it was in their interests. Um, they're not gonna grow a back burnt- bone any bun. They're gonna keep up this shtick. It's good for their business. It was particularly gross, and especially Zuckerberg, who tried to explain himself, looked like a real toady in a room full of toadies. Um, any thoughts on this?
- SGScott Galloway
I thought they make, I thought they made sex work look dignified. I mean-
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs) You bitch. (laughs)
- SGScott Galloway
I think, I think paying some guy 50 bucks to suck my cock is more dignified than what these guys did.
- KSKara Swisher
Who do you really think, Scott? (laughs)
- SGScott Galloway
What is the point, Scott? What is the point of aggregating all these skills-
- KSKara Swisher
I know.
- SGScott Galloway
These guys work so hard, they're so talented. They rally mi- hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. They build these amazing products so they can become billionaires, so they can go and fellate-
- KSKara Swisher
I know. I was thinking that.
- SGScott Galloway
... uh, an insurrectionist? I mean-
- KSKara Swisher
What in the fuck? And they all-
- SGScott Galloway
I, I unders-
- KSKara Swisher
... complained about the insurrectionists.
- SGScott Galloway
I understand the notion of staying below the radar. Don't antagonize him. Don't say anything.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
Just stay out of his way. I get it. I'm meeting... I'm having lunch with the chancellor of a iconic public college tomorrow, and they'll talk, they want to talk about a variety of things, including how they respond to Trump. And I'm like, "You are not..." And I don't, I'm, I'm loathe to even say the name, which I won't, but my basic thing is, "Don't say anything."
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
"Just stay out of his sights."
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
"Stay out of his crosshairs."
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
But these guys, i- Sam, Sam Harris sort of changed my life, of Making Sense, the podcaster. He said, "If you have economic security and people who love you unconditionally, you have an obligation to speak out."
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, I agree.
- SGScott Galloway
Because so few people can. People have to worry about their economic livelihood. They have to maybe, you know, uh, uh, there, there's a lot of reasons why you may want, not want to be provocative as a younger person if you're not economically secure. And these guys will always say, "Well, it's about shareholder value."
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
"I, I'm gonna add a lot of value to Apple, 'cause I'm gonna get this contract."
- KSKara Swisher
I don't want tariffs, blah, blah, blah.
- SGScott Galloway
But you would think one of 'em-
- 25:39 – 34:46
Elon’s $1 Trillion Pay Package
- KSKara Swisher
He's not going to. I just, I wish we could stop saying we could like the news reports. Under a new pay package from Tesla's board, the compensation all in Tesla stock is tied to hitting ambitious targets in the next 10 years, including getting the company's market value from where it's around, just above one trillion to, which is ridiculous price anyway, to 8.5 trillion, delivering a total of 20 million vehicles, which the declining sales. It's now at its lowest rates. Putting a million robo taxis on the road and also a million, I think, uh, of those robots that don't exist or just a few of them. The board is also saying that Elon needs to develop a succession framework to earn a portion of the pay that, um, these benchmarks are just watered down versions of promises Elon's been making for years as Tech Crunch pointed out correctly. Uh, Tesla shareholders also set to vote on investing in xAI in an upcoming annual meeting. I mean, the whole thing, he should just mash all his companies together and hope for the best.
- SGScott Galloway
Look, it, I don't think we need trillionaires, but I don't think we should get in the way of people becoming trillionaires. I think one of the wonderful things about American capitalism is that if you take risks, you start your own companies, you, you invent something new, the literally, the upside is unlimited. And no government agency or bureaucrats is gonna tell you, is going to say to you-
- KSKara Swisher
Sure.
- SGScott Galloway
... "Oh, you're too rich." That's fine. Have at it. I like having billionaires. I like having trillionaires. Let's talk about this specific pay package. It's saying we're going to give you options on 14% of the outstanding stock of the company, that is well outside of the range of most CEO packages, fine. He's an exceptional individual. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. In addition, the board of Tesla, which has a compensation committee to deciding the compensation package of the CEO, which by the way is the hardest thing on a board, I find, is compensation, is elected by the owners. We believe in private capital and uh, we believe in private property. So the owners of a company get to decide-
- KSKara Swisher
Sure.
- SGScott Galloway
... what they're going to pay the CEO. So there's nothing, in my opinion, if I was on that comp committee, I would say no, it's probably more like three to 8%, not 14%. And what it's basically saying is if he increases the value of all shareholders for seven trillion, he gets a trillion dollar commission. I don't think that is totally outrageous. What we should be focused on is if somebody makes a trillion dollars, I like where we were in the '50s, '60s, that they pay an incremental marginal tax rate of 90%. So I like the idea of full body contact capitalism that motivates people to work really hard and come up with new ideas. I just think we, those people need to pay a lot more taxes rather than move to Texas and end up paying, you know, he'll end up paying about 17 or 18% if in fact he gets that money. Whereas the people working in those factories are probably paying 30 or 35%.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay. I want you, from, can he hit these targets? I can't imagine he can... What can he do to get to $8.5 trillion, deliver 20 million vehicles and put a million robo taxis on the road or the cars are being overwhelmed by competitors like BYD and, and others, by the way? There's two new competitors to him, I think from... I can't remember who it was. There's some really beautiful cars out there. Um, how does he do it, Scott? Whether you give it to him or not, sure, why not? I want to, you know, Kara, if you can, if you can beat, I don't know, LeBron James, you can be in the NBA. Sure. Like, I don't get it. I don't get how he gets there.
- SGScott Galloway
Standing here and now with BYD basically offering a, a Tesla, let's be kind, 80% of a Tesla. Some people think it's 100 or 110% of a Tesla for 40 to 60% of the price, where his autonomous driving seems to be well behind. And all these jazz hands trying to distract people from a trillion dollar market cap company that's really probably worth somewhere between 50 and 200 billion by, with bullshit like robots and Mars. And um, how he would get there, in my view, or uh, to be clear, SpaceX has monopoly. That's, you know, having 80% market share of space is really enticing. But if you just look at the act, actual numbers and what would be required to add seven trillion dollars in market cap, they're basically saying you're going to get a trillion dollars if this becomes the most valuable company in the world by a factor of two. It looks near impossible. I would take, I, I would be willing to bet a lot of money that he is never going to get a trillion, that trillion dollars. Having said that, Kara, I said the same thing seven years ago-... that Tesla could never be worth more than every automobile company combined-
- KSKara Swisher
Right. But that was when it was a meme stock-
- SGScott Galloway
... and he would be able to launch SpaceX.
- KSKara Swisher
... and he was on the upswing, right? It-
- SGScott Galloway
But it happened.
- KSKara Swisher
Right, it did.
- SGScott Galloway
And so (stutters) he would have to do again, what he has accomplished to date, in terms of valuation, in terms of performance, it's remarkable. In terms of the market's response to it, it's insanely, like, unbelievable. So, could, could he do it? Is it likely to happen? Highly unlikely. Was it likely he was gonna get to this point? Also highly unlikely. So-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, much, much less unlikely.
- SGScott Galloway
You think this is much more aggressive than even what was outlawed five years ago?
- KSKara Swisher
I don't think... I think he's old, I think he's-
- SGScott Galloway
Right.
- KSKara Swisher
... has some personal problems, I think he's got-
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... some health problems. I think he can't come up with a new trick. I think... Listen, everyone's like, "Oh, if anyone, he can." I'm like, "Can he now?" He, it... This is an in- number that's just beyond belief. It could be a meme stock. That's the only way, to me, it could happen. Or he merged SpaceX with this, and who cares about X, X.AI or the other one. Maybe if he merged them all, I guess, and then pretended it was called Tesla, I suppose.
- SGScott Galloway
But meme stocks have generally had oth- other than, you could argue Palantir. Is Palantir a meme stock, trading 100-
- KSKara Swisher
A little bit, yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
I don't... Generally speaking, they haven't had ... there aren't enough meme investors to-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
... justify a multi-trillion dollar market cap company.
- KSKara Swisher
Right, right.
- SGScott Galloway
But again, it all comes back to-
- KSKara Swisher
He needs a new product is all I'm saying, and a new bit of energy in and of himself.
- SGScott Galloway
I don't know. Yeah, we continue to talk about him like he's a runaway teen. He's getting AARP mail.
- 34:46 – 40:13
RFK Jr. Creates Chaos
- KSKara Swisher
Committee last week. Let's listen to a clip from the hearing.
- NANarrator
Do you, do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID?
- NANarrator
I don't know how many died.
- NANarrator
You're the Secretary of Health and Human Services. You don't have any idea how many Americans died from COVID?
- NANarrator
I don't think anybody knows that because (laughs) the, there was so much data chaos coming out of the CDC.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, my God, his voice just drives me... Okay, that was Senator Warner. In response, Trump said of the vaccines are, quote, "Pure and simple, they work," but also defended RFK Jr., saying he's, "A different type of guy." And he's not the only one. Several Republican senators, including Bill Cassidy and Thom Tillis, expressed concern during Kennedy's hearing. Meanwhile, RFK Jr. reportedly plans to announce that pregnant women's use of Tylenol is potentially linked to autism. Conservative... He has no proof of much of this and, in fact, um, it's the same thing with the Florida surgeon general, who said he didn't use any science when it came to deciding on the vaccines. Conservative polling firms reported, warning GOP lawmakers that only 75% of Trump voters believe vaccines save lives. Um, thoughts?
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, second most dangerous person in the administration is, um, Peter Navarro, who will substantially reduce our prosperity. Most dangerous person is, uh, RFK because he's... When he gets up in front of Congress and lies and says, "I'm not anti-vaccine and anyone can get a vaccine..." No, when you-
- KSKara Swisher
Can't.
- SGScott Galloway
When you cla- when you now say that it has to be under prescription or from a doctor's orders, you're gonna reduce-... the penetration of vaccines one-third to two-thirds, and you're gonna increase disease by much more than that because you'll have a bunch of kids i- i- in third grade that have measles or rubella. This is, this is arguably if this guy gains more traction and the CDC continues to be emasculated and this anti-vaccine conspiracy bullshit continues to gain traction and people are confused, even if they believe it or not-
- KSKara Swisher
Which it is gaining traction, by the way.
- SGScott Galloway
If you don't make it easy for people to get vaccines, fewer people are gonna get vaccines and more kids are gonna have their limbs cut off from advanced measles. This is just... It's, it's one thing, Europe has not prospered because they haven't grown, but they make good decisions, they're generally a smart people. We are growing and yet we've decided how do we-
- KSKara Swisher
It's suicide.
- SGScott Galloway
... how do we take a giant step back? This is, this is insane. I g- I do have to be honest though, I was really proud that with Senator Warner, he's fantastic. I wish he would run for President. I'm... I thought Senator Bennet was good. I thought Senator Warn- Elizabeth Warren was really good. Senator Cantwell. I also thought Senator Cassidy-
- KSKara Swisher
Except he had-
- SGScott Galloway
... was actually quite-
- KSKara Swisher
He had to-
- SGScott Galloway
... deft.
- KSKara Swisher
I know, but he had to win because he had been the one that vo- had, wasn't gonna vote for him, and he would have been the deciding one and then he did, he got pressured from Trump.
- SGScott Galloway
They all f- they all claim, they all claim to have concerns and then they all vote-
- KSKara Swisher
That's what I mean-
- SGScott Galloway
... for the, for what Trump wants.
- KSKara Swisher
... that's all I'm saying. I'm not gonna give Cassidy-
- SGScott Galloway
But he did say-
- KSKara Swisher
He did. He was good.
- SGScott Galloway
He, he did say, "Look. You told me that you were gonna support vaccines and you don't seem to be doing this." So I thought he... Let me put it this way. He's, he's done a whole hell of a lot more, but if you're, if you wanna talk about a lasting legacy of death, disease and disability, this is Bobby Kennedy. And also to the President's credit, he did say in a pr- in a press or after that, "I think some vaccines are good." I mean, it's a start.
- KSKara Swisher
Except he doesn't get them and rid of them. That he d- it doesn't matter. Again, it's like Cassie, I don't care. Get rid of-
- SGScott Galloway
Well have you heard this Florida surgeon general?
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, he's insane.
- SGScott Galloway
Equating vaccine mandates with slavery?
- KSKara Swisher
Yes. I, he is, he is so stupid, I c- I don't e- he's so stupid and then was, was asked about the science and he goes, "I didn't use science." I don't... I just think parents should be able to... I think really interestingly, like someone a- had a question on- online and my brother, the doctor answered, um, like if you get a vaccine what do you care if they do? Like, it's a public health issue. You get other... There are im- immuno-compromised people who can't get vaccines for one. Secondly, if you make them hard to get and more expense... I- insurance... If the CDC doesn't back them, insurance companies don't pay for them, and therefore poor people don't get them. People with money can get them, as always. But people who don't have means can't get them. And then lastly, it's a public health danger because also ch- little babies don't get vaccines for what? A year and a half? Two years? I c- I have so many children I don't remember, but there's a, there's a period of time when babies... That's why when you go to like any cemetery of, of before we had vaccines, you see so many baby graves, right? 'Cause they died of all kinds of diseases we have eradicated and now it's back. I- it's, uh, just there's so many reasons to do it, um, that will protect everybody. But it's such a typical Trump thing.
- 40:13 – 47:30
Anthropic Settles
- KSKara Swisher
this. $1.5 billion settlement with a group of authors and publishers. That's after a judge ruled the company illegally acquired millions of copyrighted books. They were, they nicked them as they say. The settlement, $3,000 per work for about 500,000 authors is the largest payout in the history of US copyright cases. By settling, Anthropic avoids a trial that could have carried damages in the hundreds of billions. Also, I bet there were some nice emails around. All this comes as Anthropic just closed a $13 billion funding round tripling its valuation to $183 billion. Um, what do you think this means for other AI companies? I'd just love your thoughts on this 'cause, you know, they, they definitely probably... There was probably a lot of stuff would be my guess and they thought, "Let's get this out of our way, we just got this funding. We can just fork over this money as part of it." And it gets... It goes away.
- SGScott Galloway
I think you have a, a better grasp of IP and journalists and books. I want you to take this and I'll comment on it.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay. Um, I, I, you know, I th- I may have been in this group. I don't, I didn't do anything but, um, I have found my books stolen by these people and they d- they...
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah. Me too.
- KSKara Swisher
Maybe they paid for one copy, I guess, I suppose that's what they did or something like that.
- SGScott Galloway
Oh no, they don't have to buy it.
- KSKara Swisher
They, right, exactly.
- SGScott Galloway
Or maybe they buy the au- well, yeah, maybe they do. You're right.
- KSKara Swisher
They buy one copy.
- SGScott Galloway
Maybe they buy, have to buy one.
- KSKara Swisher
One copy, right?
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
It's such, it's so ridiculous the kind of stuff they're stealing and it's, and, and to me if we have these US copyright cases they should... Copyright should matter here just like it did YouTube back in the day. Um, YouTube figured it out and ended up paying people and it's turned out to be a great business, you know. You don't talk about YouTube stealing but you did forever. Why would you build your business on stealing other peoples' content and then remaking it and, and, and putting... You know, these people worked on these things, they deserve to be paid. If you don't you're a shoplifter. That's the only thing I can think of and I suspect they settled 'cause I'll bet there was emails, I'll bet there was some proof of what they did and they would have been on the hook for... This would have been over for this company had, had it gone to trial, would be my guess probably.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah we, uh, the incumbents benefit from the illusion of complexity like what's crawling, what's i- actual IP infringement, what isn't? No, it's pretty simple. I- th- this industry needs to adopt...... some sort of similar construct to what musicians do. And that is, if you play, if you're KROQ in Los Angeles and you're playing the B-52s, and e- every year they say, "Okay, you can run..." It's very seamless. You just track it. You played B-52 songs 1,100 times. You have to send Warner Brothers or whoever is the publisher of the B-52s, you have to send them $1,100 to a rights management group. The rights management group then sends out checks to everyone from Madonna to Luke Combs, and that's how they make money. And they say, "Okay, we have an infrastructure that's seamless, frictionless. People can use our content, but we get paid for it." These guys have plenty of money to pay for these rights. All they need is a tracking mechanism that says, "Okay, Kara's books informed us on this many queries, so she gets X amount of money." And we send it to a rights group who then distributes the IP, distributes the payments. This is a, this is a system they could easily prop up, but instead they pretend it's too difficult because they'd rather just steal it. So I like this because it sets a precedent that you c- they d- these companies have committed IP theft. That, that's what it says. It says that they have taken something that has economic value and they owe these authors. The next step that I think is, is really what we really need is, again, what I wanted the New York Times to do, is I wanted us all to get together and bind together as one group and then negotiate Microsoft against Google to see who got to crawl our stuff and who didn't. Because the biggest mistake we made back then was to just let them crawl it, thinking it was gonna send us more traffic. And we'd s- we'd serve them banner ads, and that just didn't work. So this is a moment in time. I think this is a step in the right direction, but I still think we gotta get to a point where it's like, okay, when your book comes out, when your TV show comes out, when your podcast comes out, we have a means of tracking what percentage of it in terms of nuance and context or direct, direct data or direct quotes from this book have been used across all of our queries, and we're gonna give you a certain percentage of our profits, and we're gonna figure out a mechanism for figuring out who gets what. It just, these guys could figure it out with a bunch of economists and a- a... What we don't have is on our side, we don't have strong representation. We don't have someone... I mean, you know our idea. We wanted Barry Diller to do this, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Absolutely.
- SGScott Galloway
To get everyone from-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
... Penguin Portfolio Random House to Disney to Condé Nast to Hearst to Dow Jones, and then basically say, "All right. It's a bidding war, and who gave- or gives us the biggest slice of their pie-"
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
"... gets access to this data." And maybe it's both. Maybe we do it for both for everybody, Anthropic, Llama. But there's enough money here to go around.
- KSKara Swisher
Theft. It's theft. Let me just say, I'm just... I just went to Amazon, right? Remember I complained when my book came out that they were ripping it off? Someone... So the first thing that results when you do "Kara Swisher" is my burn book, and then my book, There Must Be A Pony In Here Somewhere, and before that, aol.com. Those are all Kara Swisher books. Then right away, "Kara Swisher: The Fearless Voice of Tech Speaking Up, Asking Questions and Making A Difference," like as if I wrote it, like it is by some fake name. And then there's "Kara Swisher: Tech's Queen Bee With Sting." And then there's "Kara Swisher: Navigating The Digital Era: Insights And Perspectives From A Ta- Trailblazing Journalist." I cooperated on none of it. By somebody named Scott P. Monday. It d- that's all AI. They're thieves is what they are. They're thieving my stuff. And I paid for... I, I paid for it with my time and my money, and I should get all the money related to my stuff. And same thing with you.
- SGScott Galloway
But what happens...
- KSKara Swisher
Let me look up Scott Galloway now, uh...
- SGScott Galloway
Well, they're gonna start crawling our podcasts-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... and they'll be able to say-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes.
- SGScott Galloway
... "Put out a Pivot-like contact, same voices, same feel, same banter, same dick jokes-"
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
"... but cover business..."
- 47:30 – 58:43
Wins and Fails
- KSKara Swisher
Gosh, the fail... You gotta read the story in the New York Times about JP Morgan enabling the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein. It's an investigation. Uh, it's astonishing how much they were warned about, uh, all this money, this... They ignored red flags, sus- spec- uh, suspicious activity. Executives were con- uh, were concerned and they continued to, uh, let Jeffrey Epstein use their bank to, to do his nef- And they k- kind of knew it. They kind of knew it. And so I just think that, that kind of enabling. I'm sort of in an enabling point of view right now, especially with those tech......assholes sucking t- Trump's dick, as you say. Um, and my win is, uh, E. Jean Carroll's, uh, an appeals court upheld her $83 million judgment against Trump. She'll probably get the five. The 83 mill is a different story, um, but, um, they're gonna ask to go to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court has been very Trumpy lately. It just allowed ICE to make indiscriminate stops in LA, temporarily at least, up- upturning another federal court judge's order not to do that. So it's gotta go to... They're gonna ask the Second... I was talking to the lawyer for E. Jean Carroll, Roberta, uh, Kaplan, and she said they, they'll ask the s- entire Second Circuit to reconsider, and if, and then what? They'll ask, uh, the Supreme Court to decide this. Uh, I think he'll probably have to pay at least part of the money to her, and she deserves it. And I think that's great. I hope he has to pay at least someone for his behavior at some point. Um, and then the last very quick things, I don't know, Scott, there's actually really also another great story in the New York Times about how your zodiac sign is 2,000 years out of date. Do you know that? I'm not a Sagittarius. I'm a... Let me tell you what I am. It's another thing called a... There's an earth wobble, that our Earth has ch- has moved and the zodiac signs are very out of date. And I have to put your birthday. Can you, will you say your birthday publicly? I think you know, right?
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, it's November the 3rd.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay, I'll look it up wh-
- SGScott Galloway
Election Day.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, okay. Um, so the, mine is now this thing called, hold on, Oph- Oph- Ophiuchus. I'm an Ophiuchus, the 13th constellation.
- SGScott Galloway
Never once heard that about you.
- KSKara Swisher
Ophiuchus means serpent bearer in ancient Greece. That's me.
- SGScott Galloway
Hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
So I'm not Sagittarius. I'm Ophiuchus, which is the 13th constellation. They just decided to do 12 because of the month. All right, I'm gonna put yours in while you tell yours, and I'll tell you what your actual zodiac sign is.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, I actually have two wins, and I'm hoping that, uh, our team can pull together a mashup, but I thought the senators at the, I think it was the Senate Finance Committee where
- NANarrator
Yeah, finance, mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
...I forget, oddly enough, testified. I, people are very cynical about, uh, our elected officials. I think Senators Cassidy, uh, Warren, Cantwell, Bennett, uh, Warner, um, Sanders, I thought they were outstanding. Um, and they were not taking prisoners. This is a serious issue. And we elect these people to prevent a tragedy of the commons and think long term. And there's nothing that can better prevent a tragedy of the commons and is more long term than vaccines. And these guys, in my view, they just brought it. I thought they were outstanding.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
And also-
- KSKara Swisher
They did their job.
- SGScott Galloway
...it was clear that, uh, Senate offices continue to attract incredibly impressive staff and aides, because these guys came ready to play. Their facts were on point. They had charts. Uh, I mean, it's just, uh, it's the, you know, the team with the best players wins, but I thought there were really talented people behind the scenes pulling together this data for our outstanding elected leaders. So that was my win. My other win was, I was thinking about, it's about to be, what is it, the 24, um, year anniversary of September the 11th, and I just want to reflect on that for a minute. Um, I was in New York when it happened, and my ex called me. We had split up about a year before, but we were still good friends. She called me and said, "Can you come over?" And I said, "Sure." She said, "The, the World Trade Center's on fire." And we went over and it was on fire. She had a huge deck overlooking the World Trade Center, about a mile north of it. And then we saw a second plane disappear behind the second tower and come out the other end, and right then we knew it was a terrorist attack. And the flood of people coming up 6th Avenue. And I remember the radio, they came over the radio and said there's 23 planes that are unaccounted for. I remember thinking like, "Am I in a building that's too tall? (laughs) Should I get down to the ground?" And for the next several days, two things struck out. It was, it was the quietest Manhattan has ever been. No honking. Occasionally you'd see someone on the street on the cellphone crying. But other than that, no one was talking, no one was saying anything. It was very strange. No, it was very... It was like we were at a... And appropriately, uh, it was as if the city was in mourning. The thing that really struck me, and I will remember for a long time and serves as sort of, marks the, um, event, was I went to Union Square to that memorial and there was this tiny couple. They must have been like four foot 10, uh, in very cheap clothing, Ukrainian. They were passing out flyers similar to the flyers you get when someone has lost their dog, and it was a picture of this, you know, of course this beautiful young man who was a waiter at the Windows of the World, and they thought they might find him. They were out walking around trying to find their son, right? Very upsetting. And then the reason I bring it up as a win is that it really did show that our reach is far and our memory is long. If you think about the hunt for Osama bin Laden, it started in the '90s with criminal charges, and we had some early setbacks including bin Laden's escape from Tora Bora in 2001. And then with some key intelligence breakthroughs and some intelligence officers that would not give up, we uh, tracked a, we tracked a courier to Abbottabad and, and then it culminated in this incredible SEAL raid in, uh, May of 2011 which ended in bin Laden's death. And in addition, this left a treasure trove of intelligence files and spurred critical retrospection, uh, on foreign and domestic intelligence operations. And I just, I take huge pride in the, in our security apparatus, our Defense Department, our incredible special ops. I love the idea that the last thought that ran through this guy's, uh, head before we put a bullet in his eyes is that, um, we had found him. And it was also, I would argue, the last time America really felt like it was unified. And it was just such an-
- KSKara Swisher
That's very powerful.
- SGScott Galloway
... incredible, uh, uh, demonstration of persistence, resilience, our intelligence apparatus, our bravery.Um, and, uh, uh, uh, and I love... My favorite visual memorial in history is each year they light up two beams into the sky, r- right where the, uh, Twin Towers were. But there were just so many people who came together to, um, I would like to think, um, give some, some semblance of closure, uh, to the people who lost people and to demonstrate that America... You know, again, our reach is far and our memory is long. But I just wanted to comment on, uh, the 24-year anniversary of, uh, September 11th for... If you're in New York, it really, it really stands out as a big moment.
- KSKara Swisher
Do you know where Amanda was? Underneath the towers. She was in a subway going down there.
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, really? Did she-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Did she know what was going on?
- KSKara Swisher
The subway stopped... No, the subway stopped and filled with smoke. She thought she was gonna die and didn't know what... Nobody knew and they, they managed to get them out and get up in the street and far enough away that it didn't... Before it fell and stuff like that, so one of them fell and so-
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, one, one of the strange things about 9/11 was-
- KSKara Swisher
It was terrifying, I'm sure.
- SGScott Galloway
... they had that hospital and they, they fired it up and said, "Get ready." And the thing was, you either died or you got off scot-free. There were actually very few injuries.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Yeah, uh, it's-
- SGScott Galloway
But-
- KSKara Swisher
... a tragedy.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, we lost, we lost something like 350 firefighters, lost about 3,000 people and another-
Episode duration: 58:43
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