Lawsuit Claims Dating Apps Encourage Compulsive Use

Kara Swisher 0:00 The Match Group, home of Tinder and other dating apps, is being sued for creating addictive products. The lawsuit claims the business model is predatory and rewards compulsive use, accusing the company of negligence and violation of consumer protection laws. Uh, the accusation of similarities to litigation other social platforms have faced, uh, about knowingly designing addictive features. In a statement, Match called the lawsuit "ridiculous" and said it had "zero merit." This suit also seeks damages for people who paid to use the apps and new warnings about risk, uh, risks of addiction. I, I, I don't know what to say. I, I, I feel like that they're... I'm kinda on Match's side, "It's ridiculous." You're kidding. Dating apps are addictive? It's not-

Scott Galloway 0:38 Yeah. Uh, uh, tell us something we don't know. I don't... I mean-

Kara Swisher 0:40 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:41 ... it feels like it'd be not just cocaine, but crack cocaine. Not only do they implement-

Kara Swisher 0:47 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 0:47 ... the same sort of, um, you know, uh, uh, gamification and visual stimulation and random rewards that Tristan Harris talked about that create that slot mach- machine effect, where it's constant dopa by just pulling the arm again. But when you're thinking about the opportunity for a romantic or, you know, a romantic relationship, um, and you get evaluation or you get feedback s- you know, s- some positive but mostly negative, especially if you're a man on these apps, I can't imagine these apps wouldn't be addictive. How could they not be addictive?

Kara Swisher 1:20 Mm-hmm. I, I, I, I don't know. Is there a lawsuit here though?

Scott Galloway 1:23 Yeah. Tell us something we don't know. Alcohol is addictive, okay? What do we do

Scott Galloway 1:27 about it?

Kara Swisher 1:27 So, this is why... This is the only reason I'm asking, and I'm gonna play devil's advocate here, is we s- we think social media platforms should be held accountable for what it does to teen girls or addiction and stuff like that, and we think that's okay. Is this any different or not?

Scott Galloway 1:42 Y- Well, the only thing that's... Uh, I mean these things get pretty mendacious pretty fast. Fake profiles-

Kara Swisher 1:46 Yes.

Scott Galloway 1:46 ... where they give people the sense that there's more opportunity and build their hopes when there isn't. You know, that's pretty... That's sort of... Th- th- that's just immoral. That's just not... But they're not doing anything that any other app that's selling sneakers or washing machines is doing, trying to create you to just stick on the app. I don't-

Kara Swisher 2:07 Yeah, but how is it different than social media? 'Cause I know-

Scott Galloway 2:09 I don't think it is.

Kara Swisher 2:09 ... you and I are... It isn't. It isn't. So should... What we think, social media should be subject to lawsuits around addiction or not? 'Cause it definitely-

Scott Galloway 2:18 I, I think-

Kara Swisher 2:18 ... has self-esteem issues, which is linked to addiction of using them, right? So, just-

Scott Galloway 2:23 Well, it's not... Okay. Uh, to try and... A- addiction itself, I think, is so complicated to prove in a court. I think what we've advocated for is that around health, as it relates to kids, maybe even elections, that's similar to the rest of media. They should not have Section 230 protections, such that if they find that, in fact, Facebook is sending out emails to girls-

Kara Swisher 2:50 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 2:51 ... teen girls, with images helping them kill themselves-

Kara Swisher 2:56 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 2:56 ... that they have some liability for that.

Kara Swisher 2:59 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 2:59 We're not gonna even go to trying to prove what is addictive or what isn't addictive.

Kara Swisher 3:03 Right.

Scott Galloway 3:03 'Cause ice cream is addictive.

Kara Swisher 3:05 Right, right. True. Fair.

Scott Galloway 3:05 We're going, we're, we're going to go to liability. Now, if, if, if kids... If, if they are lying to people and saying, "Okay, there's a ton of really hot interesting people here who are really interested in you," and there are fake profiles and they're not, such that you spend more money, that's fraud, right? But I don't, I don't, I don't... Uh, you know, we have big laws around addiction. We tried to outlaw, we tried to outlaw alcohol. It didn't work. I, I, don't... I think that's tough

Scott Galloway 3:32 to figure out.

Kara Swisher 3:33 I, I suppose like on cigarettes there's warnings, right? Maybe they could have warnings on them in this regard.

Scott Galloway 3:38 Warning, pursuing love is addictive or bad for your health.

Kara Swisher 3:41 (laughs) Yeah. Addicted to love, play that song.

Scott Galloway 3:43 I... Look, uh, apps, I've never been on a dating app. Uh, although, uh, my nickname at the office was Swipe Left. I love that.

Kara Swisher 3:50 Uh, was it?

Scott Galloway 3:51 Um-

Kara Swisher 3:51 What?

Scott Galloway 3:52 All the kids used to call me Swipe Left. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 3:53 Oh. Oh, that's funny. (laughs) That, that means you don't...

Scott Galloway 3:56 Um-

Kara Swisher 3:56 I've never been on a dating app. Is, does that mean-

Scott Galloway 3:58 Yeah. So-

Kara Swisher 3:58 Does that mean you don't like them?

Scott Galloway 4:00 No. I, uh, d- would I advise people?

Kara Swisher 4:02 What is swipe left? Which is swipe left? Tell me. I don't know because I've never-

Scott Galloway 4:04 Swipe left is I'm not interested. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 4:06 Oh, okay. Got it. I get it. Okay.

Scott Galloway 4:07 I'm not into-

Kara Swisher 4:07 I like that. I'm gonna call you that, Swipe Left.

Scott Galloway 4:08 Thanks for that.

Kara Swisher 4:09 No problem.

Scott Galloway 4:09 I, I personally, would I advise single people? I, I think it's easy to be a purist when you're s- when, when you're in a, when you're in a relationship. If I were single-

Kara Swisher 4:17 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 4:17 ... I would be accepting every ina- invitation to a dinner party. I'd be letting my friends know that I was single. I'd be politely and in a dignified way, when I met people professionally, following up and seeing if they might be interested in coffee and trying to sense if they were in fact interested in me in more than professional relationship, which I think is okay. One in three relationships begin at work. And I'd be on the apps, because the most rewarding thing in your life is going to be finding a romantic and sexual partnership, or maybe someday you decide to partner together economically and have children. And you know what? It's really fucking hard, and it requires effort and rejection, and I, I, I say do it all.

Kara Swisher 4:56 I, I see all the negatives out there. There's a great story, and I forget who wrote. I think it was Gail. Oh, she's a Vanity Fair reporter, wrote a great story about sort of the way men treat women on these apps, and I didn't like it. It was really kind of repulsive. Um, and when I actually read it-

Scott Galloway 5:09 I think it's the opposite, Kara.

Kara Swisher 5:11 I know. Uh, let me just finish. Let me just-

Scott Galloway 5:12 Go ahead.

Kara Swisher 5:12 So I... There's lots of issues with these apps, including fraud, bad profiles, et cetera, et cetera, and sort of the way people treat each other is kind of, um, interchangeable and fungible, um, which I don't like. But that happens in life at bars too, so it's not like a new fresh thing. Um, on the whole, I've had, heard... A- as many as horror stories there are, I think there's been a lot of really wonderful stories of people meeting on these things.

Scott Galloway 5:38 Agreed.

Kara Swisher 5:38 Many of my friends met on apps, met and are married.

Scott Galloway 5:41 Yeah. It's been great for the gay community.

Kara Swisher 5:42 Many, many, many, many. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, not always. It sometimes can be very, uh, lonesome. I, I talked to a lot of gay men about it. You know, it's more transactional. It is what it is in that regard. But, um, I think they make some... Well, a friend of mine keeps taking it off his app because it makes him feel bad. Louie took, uh, had a, a dating app. He took it off, made him feel bad. Um, uh, you know, I just... I, I've never used them, so I don't have... I can't speak from experience. But I do think on the whole, they're kind of okay, just like... I think they're better than bars in some cases. Bars can be really depressing, I think.

Scott Galloway 6:16 You know, what, what dating apps do is they speed ball a market. And that is, because everybody thinks they have access technically to everybody, they, in some instances, women increase their standards. And, uh, you, you can't tell a woman to, to not increase her standards, right? The problem is, is that (sighs) the top 10% of men get 80 plus percent of the interests, letting them engage in what I'll call portion polygamy, which doesn't-

Kara Swisher 6:44 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:44 ... which doesn't, uh, incentivize them to establish long-term relationships, and quite frankly lets them get away with probably what is not great behavior.

Kara Swisher 6:51 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 6:51 At the same time, if you want as a man who is... If you're 5'8" and you're not making hundreds of thousands of dollars and maybe you're not great looking and maybe you didn't graduate from MIT, you don't have a chance to be funny. You don't have a chance to demonstrate you're kind. You don't have a chance to demonstrate that you have wonderful body language or are confident. It's all about online. I- essentially with women, it's their aesthetics, and with guys, it's their ability to signal resources. But the difference is men have lower standards and will swipe right a lot more. A lot of people end up lonely. And if you wanna talk to validation that men what I'll call the lower half of attractiveness on basic economic viability, you wanna, you want, uh, to find a means of validating they have no worth to the opposite sex, they should just go on dating apps. It's really brutal for what I'll call an average man.

Kara Swisher 7:42 Mm-hmm. Yup. No, 100%. Again, I've never been on them. Never been on them. I don't know why. I just don't know. I'm too famous.