Mamdani's Primary Win for NYC Mayor Matters to All Americans | Pivot

1. 0:00 – 4:16

   Intro

   1. KSKara Swisher0:00

      The voters wanted this. It's not some young people being stupid. These are the voters. They vote the way they wanna vote. (instrumental music) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and I have decamped to Scott's apartment in New York again.

   2. SGScott Galloway0:19

      And I'm Scott Galloway. This episode is sponsored by IBM.

   3. KSKara Swisher0:22

      Here I am, squatting.

   4. SGScott Galloway0:25

      I don't know if you noticed, but I've changed the wireless passcode to "please leave soon."

   5. KSKara Swisher0:30

      (laughs)

   6. SGScott Galloway0:30

      Um. (laughs)

   7. KSKara Swisher0:31

      No way.

   8. SGScott Galloway0:32

      And, um-

   9. KSKara Swisher0:32

      Not 'til you move back, and I may still stay with you when you move back. It's new.

   10. SGScott Galloway0:35

       Yeah, Kara asked me yesterday where she should put her dirty laundry, and I said, "In her car on the way home."

   11. KSKara Swisher0:41

       (laughs)

   12. SGScott Galloway0:42

       Kara, welcome. You're welcome. Uh, just hands off the edibles and my granola and my creatine chewables.

   13. KSKara Swisher0:48

       I-

   14. SGScott Galloway0:48

       Other than that, everything is allowed.

   15. KSKara Swisher0:49

       I am gonna use all of them.

   16. SGScott Galloway0:50

       ... super gross.

   17. KSKara Swisher0:50

       We're doing some filming here. It's gonna be... I'm not gonna tell us for what. It's a secret.

   18. SGScott Galloway0:53

       Oh, great. I'm getting a location fee, I assume?

   19. KSKara Swisher0:56

       Um-

   20. SGScott Galloway0:56

       What are you filming there?

   21. KSKara Swisher0:57

       Uh, things. Things, testing.

   22. SGScott Galloway0:59

       Oh, things.

   23. KSKara Swisher0:59

       I'm gonna do some testing. I'm going to a rave with Louie tonight. I'm going to a rave.

   24. SGScott Galloway1:03

       Uh, that has got to be-

   25. KSKara Swisher1:05

       Yeah.

   26. SGScott Galloway1:05

       You just brought the lame factor of that rave way up.

   27. KSKara Swisher1:09

       I'm excited.

   28. SGScott Galloway1:10

       It's-

   29. KSKara Swisher1:10

       Dancing with my son.

   30. SGScott Galloway1:10

       I'm sure you're excited.
2. 4:16 – 16:37

   Trump Lashes Out Over Iran Damage Reporting

   1. KSKara Swisher4:16

      all, President Trump is doubling down on his claim that the US obliterated Iran's nuclear program. That's in spite of leaked intelligence reports saying the strikes only set Iran back by a few months. Now these are early intelligence reports, let's be fair, and, uh, you know, we definitely just... I don't know why he's not happy with, "We did a lot of damage," and he did something bold, but he's not. He got testy when an NBC reporter asked about the report during a NATO press conference yesterday. He's railing against, uh, The New York Times. He's railing against CNN quite a bit. Uh, but let's listen.

   2. SGScott Galloway4:44

      We're talking about something that took place three days ago.

   3. ZMZohran Mamdani4:47

      I understand that's an unusual assessment.

   4. SGScott Galloway4:47

      The report was done-

   5. ZMZohran Mamdani4:49

      So what does your-

   6. SGScott Galloway4:49

      ... two days ago. Wait a minute.

   7. ZMZohran Mamdani4:50

      Yes?

   8. SGScott Galloway4:51

      They didn't see it. All they can do is take a guess. Now, if you take a look at the pictures, if you take a look how it's all blackened, you know the fire and brimstone is all underground because it's granite, and it's all underground. You don't show it, but even there, with all of that being said, the whole area for 75 yards around the hole where it hit is black with fire.

   9. KSKara Swisher5:14

      Blackened, blackened. Anyway, then he had a fired-up pighead excess, your, your Drunkle step in to back him up. Let's play that.

   10. SGScott Galloway5:22

       Of course, we've all seen plenty of leakers, and what do leakers do? They have agendas, and what do they do? Do they share the whole information or just the part that they want to introduce? And when they introduce that preliminary, uh, a preliminary report that's deemed to be low l- a low assessment... Do you know what a low assessment means? Low confidence in the data in that report. And why is there low confidence? Because all of the evidence of what was just bombed by twelve 30,000-pound bombs is buried under a mountain, devastated and obliterated. So if you wanna make an assessment of what happened at Fordow, you better get a big shovel.... and go really deep, 'cause Iran's nuclear program is obliterated.

   11. KSKara Swisher6:05

       Hmm, it's not clear if it's obliterated. Anyway, Hegseth said the FBI is investigating the leak. The CIA Director John, uh, Ratcliffe is now claiming there's credible evidence that Iran's nuclear program was severely damaged. Trump is also saying that US-Iran talks will happen next week but doesn't think a formal deal is necessary after the strikes. Um, there, uh, today, again, Pete Hegseth, who is just really so unqualified every time he gets up, was saying that, was saying that we should celebrate pilots. I mean, we do. I go to Top Gun, Pete. I love Top Gun. I love when they hit the spot, and I love it. And he also was saying that, um, that, uh, that the press should go along with propaganda 'cause daddy needs it. It's very strange. All they were doing was reporting, uh, on, um, uh, um, uh, o- on things. And before we move on, and before I wanna get your thoughts on this, I, I need you also to weigh in on this. At the NATO summit, Trump was asked about his expletive-laden rant about Iran and Israel the other day, and NATO's secretary general also had some thoughts. This is the daddy reference. Let's listen.

   12. DTDonald Trump7:06

       You know, they fight like hell. You can't stop them. Let them fight for about two, three minutes, then it's easier to stop them. So... And then daddy has to sometimes use strong language to get stuff done. (laughs) You have to use strong language. Every once in a while, you have to use a certain word.

   13. KSKara Swisher7:18

       So, daddy has to use strong... (laughs) . Anyway, Scott, I'm gonna call you daddy from now on. Thoughts on all of this, on Pete, on Trump, why he's so insistent about this and sort of losing ground for some reason, even though he was successful.

   14. SGScott Galloway7:32

       Well, a, a giant hole that's on fire, that just, I think that's a pretty decent description of how I imagine my honeymoon with Jeff Bezos.

   15. KSKara Swisher7:40

       (laughs)

   16. SGScott Galloway7:40

       (laughs) Ooh, that's bad.

   17. KSKara Swisher7:41

       You're thinking of that. You can't get out of your ad. Daddy-

   18. SGScott Galloway7:44

       Yeah.

   19. KSKara Swisher7:44

       Speaking of daddy. Anyway, go ahead.

   20. SGScott Galloway7:46

       I, I, I just think it'd be worth the photos.

   21. KSKara Swisher7:48

       Yeah. I-

   22. SGScott Galloway7:48

       I, I think that would be... You wanna talk about something that would make news, seriously.

   23. KSKara Swisher7:52

       That would make news.

   24. SGScott Galloway7:52

       And not only that, it'd be really good for-

   25. KSKara Swisher7:54

       Yeah.

   26. SGScott Galloway7:54

       Uh, I wonder if I, I wonder if we'd lose IBM as a sponsor. (laughs)

   27. KSKara Swisher7:58

       (laughs) Well, we get, we get Amazon. We get Blue Origin.

   28. SGScott Galloway8:00

       Look. Okay, so first-

   29. KSKara Swisher8:02

       Yeah.

   30. SGScott Galloway8:02

       ... off, perception-
3. 16:37 – 20:24

   Big Beautiful Bill Struggles

   1. KSKara Swisher16:37

      speaking of, of th- this other thing, he, President Trump, is also having some trouble with his big, one big beautiful bill. He says, "No one goes on vacation while Congress delivers." Uh, he's sticking to that July 4th deadline. I don't know why people make deadlines. I don't like deadlines, they always miss them. Senate Majority Leader John Thune says voting's on track for the end of this week, though major parts of the bill are still being rewritten and Republicans are divided over key provisions, most of which is surrounds Medicaid. They just arrested some people in wheelchairs today, um, for protesting. Uh, Medicaid is one of the biggest sticking points, with deficit hawks pushing for deeper cuts, and of course, it's a, it's a, it's a political nightmare for the Republicans. There's also GOP infighting over the provision that prohibits states from regulating AI during the next 10 years. Uh, M- Marjorie Taylor Greene brought this up. She's absolutely correct. Uh, although it would be great to have a national bill to create, not create this much chaos. That said, states should be able to do that. Um, I assume they'll get it passed, but, uh, will it be reconciled or... I can't tell from all the reporting whether... I assume they always end up passing these things. It's just whether it's gonna be acceptable, 'cause a lot of people are speaking up, the r- I'm talking only about the Republicans, um, uh, against it. Uh, and, and they keep, they keep not s- tapping it down, it seems like.

   2. SGScott Galloway17:52

      I just, it's just so disappointing that there's not only... It's such a cult now, the Republican Party, and also there's such a lack of leadership in the Democratic Party, you would think in the olden times that Tip O'Neill would call, I don't know, who, and say, "Okay, uh, could we potentially wedge off 20 or 30 reasonable Republicans and say, 'All right, tell you what, we'll help you pass this thing but we, and we'll go even deeper on the cuts if you match us on revenue increases, on taxes, on, you know, our most fortunate, and take the deficit down from three and a half trillion to one trillion'?" I mean, you, you'd think there'd be s- there'd just be some people in the middle here that would reach across the aisle and say, "Uh, here's an idea. Why don't we try and make ourselves really unpopular across the extremes on both sides?" I, but it, that just doesn't happen anymore.

   3. KSKara Swisher18:44

      Yeah.

   4. SGScott Galloway18:44

      So, and-

   5. KSKara Swisher18:45

      I, I, why should the Democrats help? Why, why should the Democrats help?

   6. SGScott Galloway18:49

      Well, uh, b- because if this passes as is, it not only is a budget buster and impose the greatest transfer of wealth in history, it's also basically a move towards autocracy. There's things in this bill including, I mean, there's just so much, so many terrible things in this bill. Nobody in the administration can be found a contempt of court, so they can never subpoena them and ask them, force them to come testify. They're talking about putting up 150 million plus acres of national land for sale. I mean-

   7. KSKara Swisher19:18

      They're shutting everything in here.

   8. SGScott Galloway19:19

      ... there's just so much-

   9. KSKara Swisher19:20

      Yeah.

   10. SGScott Galloway19:20

       ... there's so much ugly shit in this bill.

   11. KSKara Swisher19:22

       Yeah. Yeah. There is.

   12. SGScott Galloway19:23

       So, anyway.

   13. KSKara Swisher19:24

       I, I, I can't see it not passing, but, I mean-

   14. SGScott Galloway19:27

       Yeah, I think you're probably right.

   15. KSKara Swisher19:28

       ... he's, he's losing ... I'm telling you, he's losing a step. He's losing a step. I don't think he has a, a stranglehold that everybody thinks he does. And I think there's a lot of signs of that, um, including yelling at CNN. Like, what a waste of his time to yell at CNN, uh, you know. I just don't ... I, I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. We're not experts in this, but we'll see, and we, we ... The AI thing should absolutely not pass. States should have the right to do that. And again, we should have a national bill, but that's, that would be ... We don't have a national bill on anything having to do with tech. Um, okay, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, how New York's mayoral primary could rewrite the playbook for Democrats. (instrumental music plays) Support for Pivot comes from IBM. Bigger isn't always better, especially with AI. Supersized models can drain your budget fast. Smaller ones are smart and can help cut AI costs up to 90%. Right-size your models at ibm.com. The AI built for business. IBM.

4. 20:24 – 41:19

   Mamdani’s NYC Victory

   1. KSKara Swisher20:24

      Scott, we're back. It's being called the biggest upset in modern New York City history, I'm not sure about that, by one Democratic strategist. Uh, Zohran Mamdani, uh, a 33-year-old state assemblyman from Queens is poised to win the Senate city's Democratic primary for mayor. His closest opponent, Andrew Cuomo, conceded Tuesday night pretty quickly. Uh, it was, it was, it was a blowout. Uh, Mamdani, a Democratic Socialist, campaigned on New York's affordability crisis. It was very canny. He's a very canny guy. Uh, proposing free buses and a $30 minimum wage, you must love that, Scott, and higher taxes on millionaires, uh, and billionaires and corporations. Young voters played a big role in this election with 25 to 34-year-olds comprising the largest share of early voters, although he won in, uh, surprising places. Uh, Mamdani now heads towards the general election this November where he'll face current Mayor Eric Adams and possibly Cuomo again, although Cuomo it looks like has pulled out 'cause a loser doesn't win. Cuomo is too smart for, to, to, to lose again if the former governor runs as an independent. He's able to, um, but, um, uh, others like, um, uh, Bill Ackman, as usual, 'cause he's such a crank, thinks there should be a write-in candidate. He's losing his mind 'cause he didn't see this coming 'cause he does ... He's always wrong about everything to do with politics. He's a great investor, but otherwise he's an idiot. Um, let's listen to some of Mamdani's victory speech from Tuesday night.

   2. DTDonald Trump21:44

      We have won because New Yorkers have stood up for a city they can afford.

   3. NANarrator21:50

      (cheers)

   4. DTDonald Trump21:52

      A city where they can do more than just struggle, and it's where the mayor will use their power to reject Donald Trump's fascism-

   5. NANarrator22:03

      (cheers)

   6. DTDonald Trump22:07

      ... to stop mass ICE agents from deporting our neighbors-

   7. NANarrator22:12

      (cheers)

   8. DTDonald Trump22:14

      ... and to govern our city as a model for the Democratic Party.

   9. NANarrator22:19

      (cheers)

   10. KSKara Swisher22:20

       Really interesting candidate. I think even the Republicans acknowledge it, and actually, the smartest Republican, I know Bill Stepien was like, don't try to dismiss him, but MAGA is melting down over the win with Laura Bloomer, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and others launching xenophobic attacks. They're pretty grotesque. So was Cuomo, by the way, that, that ad he did. Um, I don't think those work. Um, but talk about this lessons 'cause, uh, this guy could have been, could have been really, uh, stained by some of his previous tweets and, and worries about, um, uh, uh, things he had said and, with Jewish voters, but a lot of Jewish voters voted for him, which is interesting. Although people, I have had many people very upset, uh, by it. At the same time, I have to tell you, um, my, my S- my, both my sons were very excited and they, they zeroed in on the affordability part and about the sensible stuff that he was doing, uh, more than anything. And also he's a very attractive guy. He's great at social media. He sounds great. He's handsome, et cetera, et cetera. Um, Scott, I'd love to hear ... I, I'm c- ... I didn't talk to you about this at all, so I'd love to hear your take.

   11. SGScott Galloway23:21

       Uh, uh, this is a political earthquake and I, I gotta be honest, and this will piss off a lot of my friends, I, I think it's hard not to be somewhat inspired by this. And there's a lot of, you know, I personally, I couldn't help but feel a little bit inspired by some of it. I, I love a younger generation of voters pushing back on money and the establishment. I mean, the estab- Bloomberg gave $8 million to Cuomo. Dan Low, Bill Ackman, the, the Democratic political machine was run over by a populist, younger movement. Um, this was ... And to a certain extent, it has echoes of the Trump campaign in terms of tactics. It focused on affordability and weaponized social media. So while he was on social media, Cuomo was running TV ads. And just to give you a sense for-

   12. KSKara Swisher24:06

       And didn't do any interviews. This guy was ubiquitous and, uh, all over the place, but go ahead.

   13. SGScott Galloway24:11

       But just to give you a sense for, you know, the, the, um, um, the difference in the campaigns, you know, (laughs) look at their Instagram followings.

   14. KSKara Swisher24:21

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SGScott Galloway24:22

       Look at, look at, you know, look at the, the, the platforms they weaponized and how they went about it.

   16. KSKara Swisher24:28

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SGScott Galloway24:29

       The ... He had a 1% chance, uh, or yeah, he was polling just at 1% four and a half months ago, and just as, just as, um, I think that Trump got Kearney and the, um, uh, Australian leader elected, I actually think Netanyahu got this guy elected. I think that so many ... I think Israel is so unpopular right now.... amongst-

   18. KSKara Swisher24:54

       You talked about this last show, the brand, the brand. It feels brutal.

   19. SGScott Galloway24:58

       I, I-

   20. KSKara Swisher24:58

       It, the brand feels brutal, correct.

   21. SGScott Galloway25:01

       There's just a general sense that Israel are no longer the good guys, they're the bad guys, and standing up to them, and he tapped into that anger, is a very, is a very effective strategy right now. And, uh-

   22. KSKara Swisher25:14

       But can I ask you, he didn't talk a lot about that, which was interesting. He talked about-

   23. SGScott Galloway25:17

       Well, he tried to run from that stuff, but-

   24. KSKara Swisher25:18

       He did, but he talked about affordability and he talked about the minimum wage. One of the ideas, which I'm, I, I don't know what I think about it, the, the, the, the city-run grocery stores. I was like, "Mm, probably not, but great i- kind of interesting idea." Everything, even though if I didn't agree with several of his things, I was like, "I like your, I like your, the cut of your jib, like that you're actually thinking of kind of some interesting ideas and stuff," so...

   25. SGScott Galloway25:43

       Well, well, let's talk about some of-

   26. KSKara Swisher25:44

       Mm-hmm.

   27. SGScott Galloway25:44

       ... his policies.

   28. KSKara Swisher25:45

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SGScott Galloway25:45

       So he wanted to talk about the housing, and he wants to talk about, okay, so fine. We have a housing problem, right? One idea makes sense, constructing 200,000 units of housing over 10 years. You would need, you would want to activate and unleash the private sector with tax subidi- subsidies and private, um, private housing construction. You would wanna, wanna motivate them through tax subsidies such that more housing development got built. You'd wanna do away with NIMBYism and make it easier to build. At, at the same time, rent freezes do exactly the opposite. They're populist bullshit 'cause all you do when you f- freeze rent is you suppress the desire and the amount of money that goes into new development and new housing. You suppress housing stock, and it's just a transfer of wealth from entrants that can't find a place 'cause there's no new housing to the people who were fortunate enough to move into a rent-stabilized place 40 years ago. So it, it doesn't work. Universal free childcare, I think it's a great idea and it shows economic return, and I was happy to pay 13% taxes, uh, in New York when I lived there because, and one of the reasons I was happy to do that was 'cause, one, it's an amazing city to live in, and two, something that made me feel really good about this city is my son was speech delayed and the state had a state-sponsored funded program to get these really wonderful young, mostly women, to come into our home and give my kid occupational therapy. And these things pay off and they make people feel really good about government. Now, now, quote unquote, "city-run grocery stores," it would be hard to think of a more fucking stupid idea. These are-

   30. KSKara Swisher27:17

       I, I get that. I get that, but go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah.
5. 41:19 – 42:38

   Trump’s Powell Replacement Plan

   1. KSKara Swisher41:19

      Fed chair replacements. Scott, we're back with more news. Let's go through these quick. President Trump reportedly wants to name a Fed chair, Jerome Powell's replacement, as early as September or October. Powell's term runs for another 11 months. A transition period typically lasts just three to four months. Trump is already on it. Listen to a clip of him at the NATO Summit responding to a question about interviewing candidates. I know within three or four people who I'm gonna pick. I mean, he goes out pretty soon, fortunately, 'cause I think he's terrible. Yeah, uh, a year is not too bad, Trump. You can't force him out. The president's reportedly considering several candidates, including former Fed, uh, governor Kevin Marsh and World Bank President David Malpass. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent is reportedly also being pitched, uh, by allies. Um, very quickly, why is he doing this? W- why? W-

   2. SGScott Galloway42:02

      Well, he just wants to neuter them, and he wants the governors to have a bigger say. Uh, but, uh, Chairman Powell will go down in... Ec- economic, economic professors in economic theory will constantly cite Jerome Powell as somebody who was a steady hand, and the next, the next pres- the next Democratic president will give him the National Medal of Freedom, and it'll be well-deserved.

   3. KSKara Swisher42:25

      Yeah. I agree. There, there we have it. Well, Trump, you know, just again, weakness on Trump's behalf, I feel like. He's, he can't have everything he wants, so he throws a little hissy. He's doing, he's doing a lot of hissies lately. Um, hissies aren't a good look for an old man,

6. 42:38 – 47:01

   FTC Approves Merger for Advertising Giant

   1. KSKara Swisher42:38

      by the way. Um, another one, um, uh, the FTC has agreed to approve the merger of advertising giants Omnicom and Inter Public Group after the companies agreed not to collude on politically motivated ad boycotts 'cause, you know...We don't love the First Amendment anymore. While the $13.5 billion merger will still allow the company's clients to choose from whether they want, uh, uh, to, to, to advertise on certain platforms, which is their right, by the way. It's kind of so stupid that they had to agree to this dumb thing. Speaking of which, liberal advocacy organization Media Matters has sued the FDC, claiming the agency waged a campaign of retribution on behalf of President Trump and Elon Musk. The agency started investigating Media Matters last month over whether it illegally colluded with other groups to boycott advertising on X. Uh, again, I, I'm glad they did that. Um, I think, um, uh, uh, you know, it's real- it's really kind of grotesque that, um, that they, they aren't letting advertisers decide where they ... even if they're talking together, who cares? It's the First Amendment. I don't know what else to say about these two cases, but I don't ... You may have some thoughts about Omnicom and Inter Publica doing this. They just had to kind of do it just to get the thing approved, I assume.

   2. SGScott Galloway43:43

      Omnicom and IPG, uh, tying up, it's literally the, the second-lamest wedding of the weekend.

   3. KSKara Swisher43:49

      (laughs)

   4. SGScott Galloway43:49

      I mean, it, they, th- these are uni- ... The reality is and I'm a can- and I, I eve- they're unimportant companies.

   5. KSKara Swisher43:56

      Yeah.

   6. SGScott Galloway43:57

      They, uh, Palantir will lose or gain the market cap of these companies in the next week.

   7. KSKara Swisher44:02

      They have soaring ... Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   8. SGScott Galloway44:03

      They're just not ... They're a shadow of themselves. The conglomerate model no longer works. One and a half percent of GDP goes to marketing, and it's all, every year, more and more of it goes to the, the guys we talk more about-

   9. KSKara Swisher44:16

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SGScott Galloway44:16

       ... and these folks. It, the fact that the FDC wanted to get in the way of this merger was insane.

   11. KSKara Swisher44:21

       Insane.

   12. SGScott Galloway44:21

       These guys, this is about survival.

   13. KSKara Swisher44:23

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SGScott Galloway44:24

       These, these guys need to consolidate-

   15. KSKara Swisher44:25

       Agreed.

   16. SGScott Galloway44:25

       ... cut back office, do some spins.

   17. KSKara Swisher44:27

       Figure AI out.

   18. SGScott Galloway44:28

       Interesting and it's tactical and not that important, but it's interesting. Publicis has actually done a better job than Omnicom, IPG-

   19. KSKara Swisher44:34

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SGScott Galloway44:35

       ... or WPP by embracing technology. They have Epsilon, they have Sapient. Uh, they've done actually a pretty good job, and now their market cap is worth more than I think the other three combined. But this is an industry that we talk about as if it's important and it's not. It, it, it, i- i- it employs a decent number of people. The ad industry played a really important role in the advancement of women. It was one of the initial industries to have female CEOs. Shelly Lazarus, the character that Peggy, uh, plays in, um, Mad Men was actually a really important woman. It was one of the, it was one of the industries that figured out and elevated women to their natural ability as opposed to, uh ... Well, let me put it this way. There was, the glass ceiling was still there, but it was higher in the communications industry. It's been an important industry for the United States, but these companies need to consolidate just to survive. The idea of I can't imagine a worse job than being a salesperson for X right now.

   21. KSKara Swisher45:32

       Yeah. Well, speaking of which, what do you think about this idea that the FDC's ... This guy who runs the FDC is such a clown. It's just ridiculous. He's like a, he's like a, a w- a, a, a errand boy for Trump, from Daddy Trump.

   22. SGScott Galloway45:44

       Not for Trump, for Musk. Musk-

   23. KSKara Swisher45:45

       Musk.

   24. SGScott Galloway45:45

       ... hands is so far up his ha- ass, if he opens his mouth, you can see Elon's palm right now.

   25. KSKara Swisher45:50

       Yeah. (laughs)

   26. SGScott Galloway45:50

       The notion that you are-

   27. KSKara Swisher45:52

       Ew. (laughs)

   28. SGScott Galloway45:52

       The notion that you are, "What about that, that black hole on fire?"

   29. KSKara Swisher45:57

       (laughs) Black hole. Blackened.

   30. SGScott Galloway45:57

       Come visit us at our wet house.
7. 47:01 – 49:50

   Meta and Anthropic’s Legal Win

   1. SGScott Galloway47:02

      that is entirely legal.

   2. KSKara Swisher47:03

      Yeah. Anyway, one interesting case though, I have to say I was really struck by. Both Meta and Anthropic struck legal wins against the book authors this week. The two companies face similar suits. In both cases, federal judge ruled that the training of AI models on copyrighted books was fair use and transformative. The judge in Meta's case said the plaintiffs, which included Sarah Silverman, quote, "Made the wrong arguments and failed to prove the copying harmed the market for authors." Um, this is gonna be a much ... And, and then Sam Altman, uh, on, uh, my friend Casey Newton and Kevin Roose's, uh, podcast HardFork pushed back really hard on the New York Times w- and saying, "I like the New York Times, but they're wrong about this." So, there's some real aggression here on these legal wins. I, I, I'd love to know what you thought about this too. It's th- they, they were ... It's super, copyright is super complex and I guess one judge said if you buy the book, you, you've done enough. If you actually f- buy the book instead of steal it, I guess.

   3. SGScott Galloway47:55

      I was, I was disappointed and surprised. And I thought, "Okay, th- we've said for a while, this is a moment in time where creators need to really circle the wagons around their IP and at least participate in some of the extraordinary shareholder gains that this industry is garnering by not actually creating content, but crawling content and then using machine to, to offer it up in interesting ways." And so this, to me, was disappointing and, and surprising. And I don't understand the mechanics of the legal ruling, but I would've hoped that they would've pushed back and said ... You know, I was hoping that there'd just be more respect for IP because at some point, this just reminds me very much of back to the old days when Google figured out a way to crawl data and give the content providers two cents by sending them traffic they couldn't monetize. And they got 98 cents on the dollar for curating information in a really interesting way that other people had, had created. If you look at all of the models here, it's just all moving towards-... an asset-light model where you don't create content, you, you crawl it, slice it, dice it, serve it. And at some point, that's going to be bad for the overall economy when there's just no money in the business of fact-checking and content creation. And, um, anyways, I was disappointed to see this ruling.

   4. KSKara Swisher49:17

      Yeah, I, I need-

   5. SGScott Galloway49:17

      What do you think?

   6. KSKara Swisher49:17

      ... to learn more about it. Like, I, I want to-

   7. SGScott Galloway49:19

      Yeah, I don't understand it either.

   8. KSKara Swisher49:20

      ... don't understand it because if they are able to do this, it's a real s- it's a real problem for authors. There's a great piece, if people want to read, in The Atlantic this week about AI, um, upending publishing, which I thought was really smart. So I want, I need to, we need to learn more about this 'cause it's an area we should know more about. Um, but yeah, I was surprised by both these rulings, but, uh, they're doing little jigs over at, uh, Meta, I guess. Uh, but it's not over, I'll tell you that. It's not over for OpenAI. It's not over for any of them in terms of legal, um, struggles they'll have a little bit. Um, all right,

8. 49:50 – 55:55

   Predictions

   1. KSKara Swisher49:50

      uh, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Okay, Scott, let's hear your prediction. What is your prediction?

   2. SGScott Galloway49:57

      I went back and looked through, um, the headlines kind of the few days following 9/11 or our entry into Iraq or, uh, Afghanistan, and other than the bin Laden raid, where the headlines ended up to be, uh, uh, the first 24, 48 and 72 hours ended up to actually being quite accurate. In every other instance, what comes out 6 or 12 months later is that we, uh, what came out 24 hours later was just not that accurate. And so, uh, my prediction isn't that interesting, it's just that everything we think we know about these attacks in Iran, we don't know. And also, I have never felt a lack of c- of certainty or confidence in the information coming out of our intelligence community and out of the White House, uh, because it feels as if their, their priorities aren't giving the American public the truth, but just signaling macho. And I don't know if we're gonna find out that, okay, all of the nuclear material was actually transported out or that the regime is on-

   3. KSKara Swisher50:59

      That's the worrisome thing. That's the one they are, that they... One of the things they're not doing is say- they're, they are sort of trying to punt on that 'cause I think that's what happened. Like, if you look at a lot of the headlines, uh, they won't say anything about whether the stuff was moved, so.

   4. SGScott Galloway51:15

      Yeah, I, I interviewed this really, um, uh, interesting guy from the Carnegie Endowment, uh, Karim Sadjadpour, I believe his name is. And, you know, it just... Military intervention in the Middle East, the only thing you know about it is it has just so many unattended consequences. (laughs) And, uh, this whole thing feels so, today, just so performative on behal- you know. We attack, it feels very performative. Ir- Iran responds in what feels like a very performative way. Uh, so it's, it's kind of a non-prediction prediction and that is whatever you think happened, the only thing I'm fairly certain on, that's not what happened. (laughs) It's just-

   5. KSKara Swisher51:55

      Do you feel like you're in a Mission Impossible movie where the, where the uranium is on the move and Ethan Hunt has to get it?

   6. SGScott Galloway52:00

      I feel like I'm in The Truman Show.

   7. KSKara Swisher52:01

      Oh. See, I feel like Ethan Hunt's on the hunt for the uranium that's somewhere in a tiny ball that he just puts in his pocket. That kind of-

   8. SGScott Galloway52:08

      But think about, think about the situation. It's an 86-year-old theocrat-

   9. KSKara Swisher52:12

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SGScott Galloway52:12

       ... who knows he could be killed at any moment-

   11. KSKara Swisher52:14

       Yeah, that guy.

   12. SGScott Galloway52:14

       ... in a bunker. They've had to shut down the internet 'cause they can't communicate with each other.

   13. KSKara Swisher52:18

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SGScott Galloway52:19

       And at the same time, we have Netanyahu, who is running to stay out of prison, and he's decided the way he does that is to be on a constant war footing, pulverizing and creating what is arguably, at this point, unnecessary death and destruction in Gaza that gets, likely played a role in the mayoral election in New York. I mean, the r- or the fact that we probably wouldn't have gone into Iran to bomb these nuclear sites had the Ukrainian army been s- not been so successful against defanging Russia, who would have still been in Syria and created more cir-

   15. KSKara Swisher52:52

       He was gonna do that in 24 hours, Scott.

   16. SGScott Galloway52:54

       I mean, it, it-

   17. KSKara Swisher52:54

       24 hours. Remember?

   18. SGScott Galloway52:55

       The game theory here (laughs) and the scenarios-

   19. KSKara Swisher52:57

       (laughs)

   20. SGScott Galloway52:58

       ... are just so crazy.

   21. KSKara Swisher52:59

       I know.

   22. SGScott Galloway52:59

       And what I wonder... I know the military does this. Is there anyone with, like, a, a big whiteboard-

   23. KSKara Swisher53:05

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SGScott Galloway53:06

       ... i- in the Defense Department or the Secretary Hex set that is actually gaming all of this out?

   25. KSKara Swisher53:10

       No. Gaming.

   26. SGScott Galloway53:10

       Do they actually think through this stuff?

   27. KSKara Swisher53:12

       Gaming. He couldn't play, like-

   28. SGScott Galloway53:14

       Anyway.

   29. KSKara Swisher53:15

       ... War, I suppose.

   30. SGScott Galloway53:15

       It was a non-pred- Actually, that wasn't good. I'll, I'll do-

Episode duration: 55:55