Nancy Guthrie Disappearance Raises New Surveillance Questions | Pivot

Kara Swisher 0:00 I'm glad they got these pictures of this guy. At the same time, this is an edge case. They're, they're keeping your video. That, which I- which everyone thought they were doing, and they said they weren't. [upbeat music] Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:21 And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher 0:22 Scott, we just did a great On with Kara Swisher about resist and unsubscribe, but I'd like to-

Scott Galloway 0:27 You have another podcast. I found that out.

Kara Swisher 0:30 I do. You were quite substantive. Where are we right now? Give us a quick update.

Scott Galloway 0:34 Uh, it lulled Tuesday and Wednesday. It appears to have come back today because Chelsea Handler, who reached out to me, posted something of all the things she was unsubscribing to, and just to give you an example of how much impact one person can have, uh, I went on AI, I went onto my site analytics. I think she just, uh... one video she did on Instagram, that one post, is gonna inspire six to seven thousand unique site visits, conversion of five percent. That's three hundred people unsubscribing, average of two platforms, six hundred unsubscribes, average two hundred. That's twelve thousand dollars times... Excuse me, a hundred and twenty thousand dollars times ten, so one point two million dollars in market cap getting taken out of these companies because of one Insta post. So-

Kara Swisher 1:17 Right, exactly. And, you know, interest- I'm going to see her, uh, tomorrow night, I think? Um, tomorrow night. She's here in DC. We should get them all to do things like that. Let's, let's le- reach into the celebs we know and get them to do this.

Scott Galloway 1:30 There we go.

Kara Swisher 1:30 I'm gonna bug them all, okay?

Scott Galloway 1:32 I like it. Thank you.

Kara Swisher 1:33 Yeah-

Scott Galloway 1:33 Great, great

Kara Swisher 1:33 ... 'cause if, if they do that and put even just one thing up, it matters, and it's an easy thing for a lot of them, and they kind of like it.

Scott Galloway 1:39 Well, what people don't realize about, about economic protests, the most famous one is the Montgomery Bus Strike.

Kara Swisher 1:43 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:43 It wasn't the one cinematic moment, it was a-

Kara Swisher 1:46 Yeah

Scott Galloway 1:46 ... it was, um, a, an organization of thousands of carpools over the course-

Kara Swisher 1:49 Yep

Scott Galloway 1:49 ... of a year.

Kara Swisher 1:50 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:51 So-

Kara Swisher 1:52 Yeah

Scott Galloway 1:52 ... it takes, it takes a while, but-

Kara Swisher 1:53 Yeah

Scott Galloway 1:54 ... any individual who subscri- unsubscribes from Open AI, A- OpenAI right now is taking ten thousand dollars out of their market valuation.

Kara Swisher 2:00 Which is great, and that adds up.

Scott Galloway 2:02 And there's a substitute, the free-

Kara Swisher 2:04 Yeah

Scott Galloway 2:04 ... the free ChatGPT.

Kara Swisher 2:05 And also, all kinds of other free services, Gemini, all the others. You don't have to pay for it necessarily. And by the way, you can use things for free. You're taking stuff from them, right, without paying them. Like, paying is the issue, is what you pay for, so just keep that in mind. Everyone's like: "Oh, now I can't use Google." I'm like: "No, it's free."

Scott Galloway 2:24 Well, just, just to give an example how, how these, this unsubscribes to these recurring revenue tech platforms or tech companies, T- T-Mobile just had an earnings call. They were projected to add nine hundred and ninety-two thousand new subscribers. They added nine hundred and sixty-two, so thirty thousand fewer, because thirty thousand people didn't show up for subscriptions. So not only do these, do these actions punch above their weight class in terms of economic i- impact, if you take w- if Sam Altman, eh, grows his subscriptions seven and a half percent versus eight percent month on month-

Kara Swisher 2:57 Mm

Scott Galloway 2:57 ... he's not gonna close his eight hundred and fifty billion dollar r- round.

Kara Swisher 3:00 Yep, absolutely.

Scott Galloway 3:01 So this is literally, this is the string. If you, if, if you don't have the time or the energy to do some of the very other important work, whether it's protests or, or, or calling your congressman, you can have a massive impact by unsubscribing right now.

Kara Swisher 3:15 Yeah, you can. Now, speaking of which, it, a- and something the administration does care about, Attorney

Kara Swisher 3:19 General Pam Bondi, who we'll talk about more in a minute, was testifying in front of, of, uh, the, Jan, Crazy Jan, was testifying in front of Congress about Epstein on Wednesday. She made it clear she'd prefer to be talking about other things. What did she zero in on? Let's listen.

Speaker 3:33 The Dow is over fifty thousand doll- I don't know why you're laughing. You're a great stock trader, as I hear, Raskin. The Dow is over fifty thousand right now, the S&P at almost seven thousand, and the Nasdaq smashing records. Americans' 401 [k] s and retirement savings are booming. That's what we should be talking about.

Kara Swisher 3:57 Well, she's not the treasury secretary, but this is what shows what they care about. They really do, the fact that it was inappropriate to bring this up in here, um, given they were talking about victims, sexual, uh, uh, abuse victims, but nonetheless, this is what floats their boat, is, is this money, right? And so let's also listen to a great idea one of our listeners sent in.

Speaker 4:17 Every child of an elderly person should also go through all of their parents' subscriptions. I went through my mother's this weekend and was able to take a hundred and twenty-five dollars off of some bills by unsubscribing subscriptions she didn't even know she had.

Kara Swisher 4:36 That is a great idea. I do that with my mom all the time, and I'm trying very hard to take the New York Post off of her subscriptions. Mom-

Scott Galloway 4:42 Two years after my mother died-

Kara Swisher 4:43 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 4:43 ... I found that Geico was still taking two hundred and twenty dollars out of her bank account a month-

Kara Swisher 4:48 Wow

Scott Galloway 4:48 ... for car insurance.

Kara Swisher 4:49 Wow, crazy.

Scott Galloway 4:51 If you don't, and I've used this example before, when I unsubscribed from AT&T and went to Noble, I'm saving about twenty or thirty bucks a month, but in addition, I found out-

Kara Swisher 4:59 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 5:00 ... I had four accounts with AT&T for BlackBerries and iPads, which had been in landfills for years, 'cause I never went on and unsubscribed them. And even though they know they're not getting a GPS signal from these things-

Kara Swisher 5:10 Right

Scott Galloway 5:10 ... and they could send you an email saying, "Hey, you know you're paying seventy bucks a month-

Kara Swisher 5:13 Right, right

Scott Galloway 5:13 ... for something you haven't used in five years"

Kara Swisher 5:15 I know.

Scott Galloway 5:15 You're gonna save money. It, it's-

Kara Swisher 5:17 Yep

Scott Galloway 5:17 ... these companies are very good at figuring out a way to get you to subscribe and get you to forget-

Kara Swisher 5:21 Forget

Scott Galloway 5:21 ... that it's coming, that this money's coming out of your pocket every month.

Kara Swisher 5:24 Yeah. You know, there's a couple services, and I don't have the names, to show where your subscriptions are and to unsubscribe, but this is a better way to do it. But then you can use those services to find them all over the place. You'd be surprised at what your s- I, I found an AT&T thing I was still, from when Apple first had the iPhone, when they had unlimited, if you remember. Anyway, uh, it's a great thing to do. Keep going. We're gonna do more. We're gonna... Every little thing we can pull on the administration cares about this issue. Uh, and it's their only thing left, is the Dow, at this point, the fallout from the Epstein-

Scott Galloway 5:54 What's that fifty thousand dollars?

Kara Swisher 5:55 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:56 She's a fucking attorney general.

Kara Swisher 5:57 I know.

Scott Galloway 5:57 She clearly knows nothing about economics.

Kara Swisher 5:59 Oh, God, Raskin.

Scott Galloway 5:59 What is she talking about the-

Kara Swisher 6:00 She called her representative.

Scott Galloway 6:00 What is she talking about the Dow?

Kara Swisher 6:02 I know. Also, also, calling a representative Raskin, who does-... Does she think she is? She's in his house! She's in his house, and she calls him Raskin? I'm gonna call you Galloway when I use your house. Hey, Galloway.

Scott Galloway 6:14 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 6:14 Anyway, the fallout from the Epstein files [chuckles] continues, speaking of which, as I mentioned, crazy Attorney General Pam Bondi, who really needs to be medicated, testified before the House Judiciary Committee on Wednesday, and things got heated. She soiled herself multiple times. Um, Bondi sparred with Democrats, not just Democrats, over DOJ's handling of the Epstein files and refused to apologize to survivors. She wouldn't even look at them there. It turned out she's never talked to them. She also clashed with, uh, GOP Congressman Thomas Massie. Massie criticized Bondi and the DOJ for failing to redact victims' names while blacking out the names of businessmen, uh, businessman, uh, Les Wexner. Let's listen to the exchange.

Speaker 6:53 If you give me- Within forty minutes, Wexner's name was added back- Within forty minutes of me- You- ... catching you red-handed. Red-hand [chuckles] there was one redaction out of over forty-seven hundred- Where he's listed as a co-conspirator. Okay- And we invited you in. You know what? Switch the video. We in... This guy has Trump Derangement Syndrome. Gentleman- He needs to g- Gentleman- You're a failed politician, Mr.

Kara Swisher 7:14 Uh, really crazy. Crazy, craziness, I have to say. I just don't know what to say. She's... What is wrong with her? Like, ser- speaking of derangement syndrome, like, h- honestly, I don't know what she was doing up there. I know it's an audience of one, but he can't even find this impressive. It's grotesque. I mean, I don't know, but-

Scott Galloway 7:35 Yeah, it really feels like we have-

Kara Swisher 7:37 Wheels are coming off.

Scott Galloway 7:39 I mean, it's, it's, i- it's a shame 'cause it's just so-

Kara Swisher 7:42 It's a serious issue

Scott Galloway 7:43 ... weird, and it's the attorney general making a mockery of the institution and just, uh, no, no decorum. But, uh, from-- I'm curious what you thought about the hearings, but the moment that I found really chilling was when, I think it was Representative Jayapal, uh, had, um, some of the, the survivors stand up and asked-

Kara Swisher 8:09 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 8:09 ... how many of them have reached out to the DOJ to provide evidence or input, but all these survivors stood up.

Kara Swisher 8:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:16 And it was clear they've reached out to the DOJ, and the DOJ has, um, strong-

Kara Swisher 8:21 Ignored them

Scott Galloway 8:21 ... is, is ignoring them.

Kara Swisher 8:22 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:22 And you thought, "Let me get this, the Department of Justice investigating what is arguably may go down as the crime of the century to date?"

Kara Swisher 8:31 mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 8:31 And survivors and people with direct knowledge about what happened or what didn't happen?

Kara Swisher 8:35 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:35 It could also, quite frankly, they might exonerate some people.

Kara Swisher 8:38 Right, exactly.

Scott Galloway 8:39 They don't wanna talk to them?

Kara Swisher 8:41 Right. Right, and she wouldn't look at them. That was another moment. She wouldn't turn around. She wouldn't do it. She- this woman is insane. I just- I don't... She a crazy one. She's like... It was so strange. And, and I know this audience of one they always do, but in this case, I was like: Wow, you people are desperate and terrified of what's coming next for you. You know, I thought Massie was effective, I thought Becca Balint was effective, I thought Jayapal was effective, Raskin. Um, I thought they all- I... One of the things, someone who works there said: "How do you think it went?" And I said: "The only problem w- with this kinda thing was you lay down with pigs, the only one, the only people that like wrestling with pigs are the pigs, right? If you get in the mud with them." But I thought they rel- they relatively handled it well. It's just that the, the craziness is what gets attention and not the victims, right? It becomes a ridiculous circus. And on some level, what was interesting is Fox didn't show it, right? They, they, they, they keep- they're obsessed with the Nancy, Nancy Guthrie kidnapping, which is a terrible thing, too, but they're not even airing it. They don't wanna si- show you the crazy. Like, and any normal person looking at this would be like: "What? Honey, you need some, you need some therapy, like, stat," kind of thing. "And you're, you know... And what happened to you?" So I thought that was... It, it was a really interesting... This Epstein thing isn't going away, Pam. I'm sorry. It's just not now, 'cause it's so very clear that you didn't do your job, and neither did people before you, by the way. But guess what?

Scott Galloway 10:07 Yeah, that's- it's a valid point.

Kara Swisher 10:08 You're in the chair now. I don't really give a fuck.

Scott Galloway 10:10 That's right. It's her, it's her DOJ.

Kara Swisher 10:12 It's her DOJ.

Scott Galloway 10:12 And her boss-

Kara Swisher 10:13 Yeah

Scott Galloway 10:13 ... her boss is mentioned in the Epstein files more times than Jesus is mentioned-

Kara Swisher 10:18 Yeah

Scott Galloway 10:18 ... in the Bible, or the term meth is mentioned in Breaking Bad over eight seasons.

Kara Swisher 10:22 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:22 And I felt like every da- every time yesterday, she, she claimed that, you know, the president had been the most, quote-unquote, "transparent" president.

Kara Swisher 10:30 Right.

Scott Galloway 10:30 When she uses the term transparent, I think some- somewhere there's a thesaurus filing for protective custody.

Kara Swisher 10:35 Also-

Scott Galloway 10:35 It's this-

Kara Swisher 10:36 "Why are you laughing at me?" [chuckles] It was just... Well, and also, it just, it's, it was so weird. It's so weird, it's so culty, it's so strange. One of the things I do think is effective is a lot of these Congress people are going in and seeing the unredacted versions, which are very upsetting, um, for a lot of-

Scott Galloway 10:52 When they come out, and they look like they've seen a ghost.

Kara Swisher 10:54 I know. Even C- Cynthia Lummis, who was, "I didn't know it was there now. Whoa! Whoa, folks." Like, um, Cynthia Lummis, I'm so glad she's leaving politics, but I have to say, even someone like that, who literally puts in the least effort possible, um, same thing. They're looking like: Oh, my fucking God, you're kidding me here. And, you know, nobody's kidding you.

Scott Galloway 11:14 I, I gotta be honest, I didn't, I didn't realize it was this bad-

Kara Swisher 11:18 Yeah

Scott Galloway 11:18 ... when the more information you, you read about this-

Kara Swisher 11:21 Yeah

Scott Galloway 11:21 ... i- in terms of the number of victims-

Kara Swisher 11:24 Yeah

Scott Galloway 11:24 ... in terms of how many people were involved-

Kara Swisher 11:28 Yeah

Scott Galloway 11:28 ... uh, how many-

Kara Swisher 11:29 The casual encounters

Scott Galloway 11:29 ... how many opportunities there were to stop it.

Kara Swisher 11:32 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:33 And it just gets, the web keeps getting deeper and uglier.

Kara Swisher 11:35 It is, a- a- and the lies. Like, look, Commerce Secretary, Gina Raimondo, was on Capitol Hill this week as well. He told the Senate committee he and his family had lunch on Epstein's island in twenty twelve but insisted he did not have a relationship with him. Of course, this was... He, he'd given this sort of ha-ha interview with one of these right-wing outfits where he said: "I've never into..."

Scott Galloway 11:53 He was indignant.

Kara Swisher 11:54 He was-

Scott Galloway 11:54 "I was disgusted by him-

Kara Swisher 11:56 "I was disgust-

Scott Galloway 11:56 ... and I said, 'We're never gonna-

Kara Swisher 11:57 "My, my wife. [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 11:57 ... we're, we're gonna have no contact with him again."

Kara Swisher 12:00 And then he-

Scott Galloway 12:00 And here's the thing-

Kara Swisher 12:01 He took his kids.

Scott Galloway 12:02 It's-

Kara Swisher 12:02 I, I, "I took my four kids and their nannies, and I got all the kids off the island." [chuckles] By-

Scott Galloway 12:06 Yeah, but-

Kara Swisher 12:07 Go on

Scott Galloway 12:07 ... but this is the thing: it's not, it's, it's not, it's usually not the, uh-... the infraction itself?

Kara Swisher 12:12 I know!

Scott Galloway 12:12 It's the cover-up. If he had said-

Kara Swisher 12:14 Why'd he say the first thing? That's, but-

Scott Galloway 12:16 But if he had just said right up front, he's a neighbor, he had powerful friends. I didn't do the diligence I should have.

Kara Swisher 12:22 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 12:22 I went with me and my kids to his island once 'cause it sounded like fun.

Kara Swisher 12:26 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 12:26 Okay, poor judgment-

Kara Swisher 12:28 Yeah

Scott Galloway 12:28 ... but go along, get along.

Kara Swisher 12:30 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 12:30 Instead of trying to wrap yourself in some sort of indignance that you-

Kara Swisher 12:33 Yeah

Scott Galloway 12:33 ... immediately smelled a rat, and you're lying.

Kara Swisher 12:36 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 12:36 And you decided to-- I mean, if he'd just come clean in the beginning, said like: "Yeah, it was bad judgment. Took my kids to his island, had a lunch. I'd heard he was a big philanthropist, and who knows, maybe he was a..." Yeah, okay, all right.

Kara Swisher 12:50 I want to see it.

Scott Galloway 12:50 Bad judgment. Move along.

Kara Swisher 12:52 Uh, right.

Scott Galloway 12:52 But it, again, it's the cover-up.

Kara Swisher 12:54 He had to take, he had to take a lap. He had to take a "I'm so" pure lap, and he-

Scott Galloway 12:58 Yeah

Kara Swisher 12:58 ... That's 'cause he's a moron. Let's, let's be clear, this guy's a moron, and people are asking for him to resign. He really is a liar. He's a liar and a moron, and it doesn't mean he had to do anything, but he's a liar and a moron. The, the one that, one that's interesting under scrutiny is en- entertainment executive Casey Wasserman, Chappell Roan, and other artists have cut ties with Wasserman, as is their right, after the latest files show he exchanged emails with Julian Maxwell and seemed to have k- some kind of relationship with her, probably extramarital, who knows? Wasserman, who serves as chairman of the LA Olympics Organizing Committee, appears to be holding onto that role. They're backing him. There were other names floated to take his place. He-- Now, let me be clear for people, uh, not floating him out, but it was 2003 before any of this was known. He may have been able to pick it up. That's different, um, but, uh, but this was well before the first conviction, the first, um, d- sweetheart deal that, uh, Epstein did with, in Florida. Um, so he's, even, even he's under scrutiny, and people are c- cutting ties. And again, this is this artist, right? They don't like the cut of his jib. That's perfectly fine. In his case, there's just... The, the, the blast zone of this is so far, right? It's really interesting.

Scott Galloway 14:07 But it's so indiscriminate, and again-

Kara Swisher 14:08 It is

Scott Galloway 14:08 ... I go to the following.

Kara Swisher 14:09 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 14:10 If we had an institution we could trust, including the Department of Justice and the institutions that actually assembled these files, if they could go through it and go, "Okay, there are three circles here. There's people who either engaged in, provided infrastructure, or trafficked and facilitated crimes. We are going to release those names in the form of grand jury indictments, and we're gonna go after these people." That's the headline news here. That's what... The Department of Justice isn't supposed to ruin people's careers. It's supposed to create an incentive system where people follow the law by prosecuting criminals and exonerating people who are not guilty. That is what they are there to do. And then the second circle, and this is a harder one, is okay, if a cabinet, if a cabinet member has clearly lied under their testimony or under oath, should they release that information? Didn't, didn't commit a crime. This is Howard Lutnick. Should the president, who has not so far been accused of a crime, if he's mentioned in this thing six thousand times, should we release that information? I think that is a really important point. The biggest circle, quite frankly, is go- I have seen on TikTok and on Instagram people talking about models and how they talked about going to a museum with Jeffrey Epstein, and we should no longer, uh, have anything to do-- They're trying to shame all these people, and it's like, you know what? Folks, th- that's just pure gossip, and unfortunately, the ring light shaming of all these courageous, virtuous people when they're behind a, a keyboard and have much higher standards for other people than they do for themselves, that is distracting from what the Department of Justice is supposed to do, and that is put pedophiles in prison.

Kara Swisher 15:47 Yeah. I would urge people to read... It was a really interesting, you know, Kathy- Katherine Ruemmler, who's the s- the legal head of Goldman. You know, she was, she had a lot of emails in her, very chumm- chummy kind of emails with Epstein going on for a while. Um, I thought Bill Cohen did a great job look- talking about why she was in that relationship, and most of it was, in fact, she was professional. She's looking for work, right?

Scott Galloway 16:11 For business.

Kara Swisher 16:11 And that's a whole d- different-

Scott Galloway 16:12 Guy knows rich guys who can send me AUM for wealth management.

Kara Swisher 16:15 Yes, exactly. So I would urge people to read that, and again, s- one or two of them, and, and one or two places she- when he said: "Oh, I on- it was only prostitution," she goes, "That's just as abusive, Jeffrey." Like, she, she unfortunately kept saying they were gifts. There was a business relationship. I thought it was, it was actually a really s- um, complex situation that made me think, "God, if she was a guy and she did like golf with him, she'd get off." 'Cause she was a woman, was vaguely flirty, kind of. She wasn't. Like, anyways, it was a great piece because it made me rethink. I was like: "Okay, like, not great judgment," right? Should've known better. Should've stopped talking to him after the first thing, um, but didn't. Business-- It was just interesting. It was, I, it made me think a lot. I, I recommend Bill Cohen's column, uh, in Puck, and I thought this was, i- this is his area of expertise in finance, and I thought, "Okay, I gotta..." This is why sh- there's-- He, he was trying to explain why they haven't let her go, right? So I thought that was interesting. Anyway, um, speaking of,

Kara Swisher 17:19 uh, um, power, uh, six Republicans joined Democrats in the House on Wednesday to vote for a resolution aimed at ending President Trump's tariffs on Canada. That it's a symbolic gesture, even if it clears the Senate, uh, i- Trump would veto it, but that didn't stop him from making threats. Trump posted on Truth Social that any Republican who votes against the tariffs would seriously, uh, suffer consequences come election time, and that includes primaries. Uh, I think he's losing the, the grip, as they say. What, what do you think?

Scott Galloway 17:44 Well, there's some new data that shows that about... So the initial notion was the tariffs would, uh, mostly be paid by either corporations, sort of a populist thing, or the, uh, uh, importer, or excuse me, the exporter themselves. The, the country would absorb it or whoever was sending the products. It ends up, and there's finally analysis, ninety-four percent of the costs have been borne by US consumers, and then the other six percent have been borne by companies either deciding to take a bit of a hit-... or the, the importer themselves, or excuse me, the exporter themselves, reducing their prices. You have about fifteen percent of the economy is, um, imports it-- they thought the tariffs average around twenty percent, so that's three percent. Some managed to get out of it, so call it a two percent of the economy, but the problem is, it's an unnecessary two percent hit to the economy. To be fair, it hasn't had the catastrophic effect a lot of people thought it was gonna have, but in a weird way-

Kara Swisher 18:44 Prices higher.

Scott Galloway 18:44 Well, if, yeah, it's just, why-

Kara Swisher 18:46 I, I feel it myself, and the shelves are emptier. It's weird. I never have noticed that before.

Scott Galloway 18:50 Well, not that, but why reduce people's prosperity by two percent for no real reason?

Kara Swisher 18:53 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 18:53 It doesn't cause go- growth-

Kara Swisher 18:54 Right

Scott Galloway 18:54 ... it doesn't cause innovation. All it's doing is-

Kara Swisher 18:57 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 18:57 ... is, is urging or reconfiguring the supply chain around the United States. The EU is entering into an agreement with Mercosur. There are all kinds of new trade zones being opened up such that people are not as reliant on the US. In a weird-- A weird thing, though, is that if his tariffs are overturned in, by the Supreme Court or by the Congress, actually, the markets will rip. So in a weird way, it could end up, it could end up helping him if, if these things are turned back. I think the markets will scream if these tariffs are found to be, uh, illegal.

Kara Swisher 19:33 Yeah, well, we'll see. And although apparently, he's got all these plans to put other kinds of fees in place to take their place, that are-- that he-- then he'll have to go back to court and stop him for those. He's doubling down. This is something he's talked about for years, so I don't know if he's gonna back off so quickly and take the, take the victory here. He'd like to take the L, honestly. I think it's interesting.

Scott Galloway 19:54 Yeah, I don't, I don't know.

Kara Swisher 19:55 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:55 I, I anyways...

Kara Swisher 19:55 No, they, you know, that lunatic, Peter Navarro, talks about him, like the, we have a whole bunch of things to happen if the Supreme Court overturns this. What's taking the Supreme Court so long, by the way? Anyway, uh, we'll see what happens. I do think on the broader sense, that there's lots more, um, Republicans willing to push back because of their own political survival is not linked to Donald Trump as much anymore. The other thing is, it looks like they may lose control of the House.

Scott Galloway 20:20 That's right. Another person's resigning, right?

Kara Swisher 20:22 Yeah. So, you know, they're one, they're one sick person away from losing the, having the Democrats in control. So it's a really interesting time. He doesn't have the-- the power is slipping away, and that's why you heard Screamy Pam or this nonsense and stuff, so we'll see more of that, I think. Um, okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, social media on trial, a very important case. [upbeat music] Support for Pivot comes from Anthropic. There are bumps in the road, the ones you can just throw a Band-Aid on and be done with it, and then there are the bigger problems, the ones where you really have to stop and think through, the ones when you finally crack it, it feels unbelievable. And for those problems, you're gonna need a partner to help you understand where you're at, where you're going, and how you're getting there. Claude from Anthropic is that partner. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's a collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you, whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move. Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. Plus, Claude's research capabilities go deeper than basic web search. It can use comprehensive, reliable analysis with proper citations, turning hours of research into minutes. Ready to tackle bigger problems? Start with Claude today at claude.ai/pivot. That's claude.ai/pivot, and check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all the features mentioned in today's episode: claude.ai/pivot. [upbeat music]

Scott Galloway 21:55 [upbeat music] Support for the show comes from CoreWeave. AI isn't just a new tool, it encompasses so much more. It's spurring a revolution across all industries and reshaping itself to become a big part of our future together. CoreWeave is at the center, powering some of the biggest names in AI. As the essential cloud for AI, CoreWeave provides an AI platform that combines next-generation infrastructure, intelligent tools, and expert support. It's powering the world's most complex AI workloads faster and more efficiently, from medical research and diagnosis to education, from complex visual effects from movies to breakthroughs in science and technology. If it's AI, CoreWeave is uniquely ready to power it with purpose-built tech, the big ideas, the wild visions, and what-ifs and why-nots. CoreWeave is working to build what's never been built before. CoreWeave is the essential cloud for AI, ready for anything, ready for AI. To learn more about how CoreWeave powers the world's best AI, go to coreweave.com/readyforanything. [upbeat music]

Kara Swisher 22:54 Scott,

Kara Swisher 22:55 we're back with more news. A landmark social media trial got underway this week, with Meta and YouTube accused of deliberately designing their platforms to addict young users. You think?

Scott Galloway 23:03 [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 23:03 The lawsuit is the first of more than fifteen hundred similar cases to go to trial. This is something that's been building for a long time. The plaintiff's lawyer is arguing that his client, a twenty-year-old woman, got hooked on these apps as a kid because they were like digital casinos delivering dopamine hits. Instagram head Adam Mosseri, uh, testified on Wednesday that he doesn't think users can be, quote, "clinically addicted" to the app. Adam Mosseri is not a doctor, just so you know. I can't believe he said that. It was kind of a, a, a mistake on his part. Meanwhile... And also, he's wrong. Uh, meanwhile, YouTube is arguing it's not social media, it's an entertainment platform like Netflix, and it's not addictive. That is also not true. The jury-- Anyone who has kids knows that. Uh, it's very different from Netflix. The jury trial, I mean, it's become more like Netflix recently, but it's also an addictive situation. The jury trial is expected to last six to eight weeks, with Mark Zuckerberg and YouTube's Neal Mohan expected to testify. This is a really important trial. Uh, the big names are coming out and talking about an issue you and I have talked about for years. Um, what are, what are the actual effects, and who is responsible for creating an, an addictive product? And I'm sorry, Adam, I'm not a doctor either, but any fool will tell you it's, uh, anyone, not fool, any person will tell you it's addictive, anyone who uses it. Um, a- and you design-- And there's so much proof that you've designed it like a casino or a cigarette or whatever it happens to be. Thoughts?

Scott Galloway 24:23 ... imagine you're fourteen and someone, you go into your room, and if you were like me, your mom wasn't home until six or seven PM, and you're home alone.

Kara Swisher 24:31 Gilligan's Island.

Scott Galloway 24:32 And yeah, that's-- it was Bugs Bunny, and Gilligan's Island, and I Dream of Jeannie for me. But what if in the corner there was a casino? What if there was an arcade? What if there was porn? What if there was unlimited music? What if there, uh, a- and then you say, "No, no, no study." What if there was the high school cafeteria where I could say something mean about someone else, or someone could say something mean about me, and all I could think about the rest of the day and night was what they were saying about me? That the high school cafeteria never, never left, and it ends up that about six percent of teenagers are clinically addicted or, or meet the clinical definition of addicted to either drugs or alcohol, but under that same, those same standards, twenty-four percent are addicted to social media. And just some data, the average American teen, teen spends four point eight hours a day using social media. Sixteen percent of teens, or one in six, use TikTok almost constantly, fifteen percent for YouTube, thirteen percent for Snap, twelve percent for Instagram, and roughly half of all teens report feeling addicted to social media. And w- you say, "Well, okay, fine, what's the impact?" Teens who are in the highest use group express two times more suicidal intent or self-harm than those in the lowest use group, and the highest use group also expressed poor, uh, body image at three times more than the lowest use group. And it typically takes a society, or it takes America twenty to thirty years to respond to really negative externalities. It took us thirty years with tobacco, it took us twenty years with opiates, and if you think about social going on mobile in twenty twelve, it pro-- Twenty years is probably the right number. I think when I'm-- Me, pa- parents always ask me: "What should I do with my kids?" And I say: "How old are your kids?" And if they say three or five, I'm like: "We'll have it figured out by then." Because the data here is so overwhelming, and we're up against a, a, a intransigence and people trying to delay and obfuscate, similar to those tobacco executives, and they have more money, and they're more skilled this time. But eventually, the tide, the tsunami of parental concern here, you know, understandable parental concern, is washing over all this bullshit where... Uh, so I think in, I would say, I mean, you have entire countries now age-gating. Look at what Australia's doing. I think another two to three years, I'm hopeful the landscape's gonna be much different for children.

Kara Swisher 26:57 And the, the remedies would be warning sig-- There's lots of remedies, like with cigarettes, like people-

Scott Galloway 27:02 Age gating.

Kara Swisher 27:03 A- age gating, warning signals, um, the checking-

Scott Galloway 27:08 Legal liability

Kara Swisher 27:09 ... of ages. Legal liability.

Scott Galloway 27:09 [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 27:09 The age checking is harder, I think.

Scott Galloway 27:11 What every, what every other-

Kara Swisher 27:12 Yeah

Scott Galloway 27:12 ... substance company and [chuckles] manufacturers, media company is subject to.

Kara Swisher 27:16 Yeah. They've got to be kidding, y- you know, there's so much. You- they have so many emails of them talking about this. That's the problem. For Adam, sorry to say this, he doesn't think it's clinically addictive. Come on, Adam, come on. We all think it is. We- the problem is every adult knows this in their bones, right? It's like-

Scott Galloway 27:33 Because we're addicted.

Kara Swisher 27:34 We're addicted, like we are. It's a problem. You cannot put it down, and it is different from television. It is very different. And television... Listen, Gilligan's Island's addictive enough. I can't believe I watched all that shit, but you can walk away from it in a way. You cannot walk away from this. It's almo- I find myself, I'm-- I have to throw the phone across the room, right? So, uh, sometimes. I'm like, "Put it down." Um, you know, every, Amanda, same thing. We just-- It's really interesting, and sometimes I think about it, I'm like, I like news, and I'm read-- I'm mostly reading news, but I don't stop. That's the difference. I put down magazines, I put down newspapers, and I love news. So this is the, all this stuff as it gets out, as you see the emails in- inside the company talking about it, and especially early on, they knew just what they were doing. And, um, perhaps they weren't meaning to be malevolent at the beginning, but it's malevolent for many young people, and the impact is huge. And then they just keep doubling down with AI relationships and synthetic relationships and everything else. This is, y- the time has come round at last for these companies. We'll see how well, how, how this trial does, but it's gonna, it, it's gonna just uncover more and more about what they knew, very much like the cigarette companies.

Scott Galloway 28:46 When you have hundreds of billions of dollars in shareholder value, trillions of dollars in shareholder value, hundred of billions in revenue, millions of some of the brightest people in the world, and trillions of data points, all trying, all aiming towards one thing: How do we get people to spend one more second every day on social and less time somewhere else, whether it's sports, friends, studying, sleep, and they're winning. And young people, especially young men, who have this tremendous fall in their brains where they're constantly dopamine hungry, they're up against an indomitable foe. And then the other, a- a- and it's-

Kara Swisher 29:21 Like sugar. It's like sugar, it's the same thing. It's the same-

Scott Galloway 29:23 And then there's two or three... But your kid, your kid can't take, you know, a ten-pound bag of sugar into his bedroom-

Kara Swisher 29:29 Yeah

Scott Galloway 29:29 ... with him.

Kara Swisher 29:29 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 29:30 The, the, the other two things-

Kara Swisher 29:32 Well, that's your kid. My kid could, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 29:33 [chuckles] The other two things, it is a cumulative effect that I think have really hurt our youth, youth are, one, I do think parents have some culpability here-

Kara Swisher 29:42 Absolutely

Scott Galloway 29:42 ... and that is, we have decided that our job is to clear out all borders and obstacles for our kids. We engage in concierge and bulldozer parenting-

Kara Swisher 29:50 Mm

Scott Galloway 29:50 ... and by the time the kid gets to college, he or she has never had a C or a disappointment, and we've created this princess and pea, um-

Kara Swisher 29:58 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 29:58 ... generation with good intentions. We thought we were doing-

Kara Swisher 30:01 Yeah

Scott Galloway 30:01 ... our kids a good thing. And then, something that doesn't get talked a, a lot about, but I absolutely think is adding up to a generation that is at a disadvantage, and that is, if you are twenty-one, since the age of ten, the person you are supposed to look up to most in the world is Donald Trump. So performative virality, coarseness, and cruelty-... online scams-

Kara Swisher 30:27 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 30:27 crypto, doubling down on lies.

Kara Swisher 30:30 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 30:30 This has been the role model-

Kara Swisher 30:32 Yep

Scott Galloway 30:33 -as kids' brains are being w- wired during puberty.

Kara Swisher 30:37 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 30:37 And no matter who is president or what you think of the office, president is the person that millions of young Americans look to as the, as the ultimate of success in American values. So what have we done? We've raised a generation of kids who are dope-hungry, and their primary role model, maybe with a close second, the richest man in the world, are exhibiting-

Kara Swisher 30:58 He's the greatest internet troll of all time.

Scott Galloway 31:00 Are exhibiting values that are very-

Kara Swisher 31:03 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 31:04 I mean, w- and what do you know? These twenty-one-year- old, twenty-one-year-olds are not... It's shocking wha, it's shocking what good people they are, [chuckles] given what they have to deal with.

Kara Swisher 31:12 I would agree. I think they do resist more than you think. And actually, there are a lot of parents. One of the things I spent a lot of time doing with my kids, whenever, like, "Can you go get this? Can you talk to that person?" If they wanted something, I'm like: You need to do it. Like, you fi- I, you figure it out, has became one of my lines with my kids, my older kids. "You figure it out." I do it with my younger kids now. With Sol, I'm like: You figure it out. I don't know. I, I know, but you can do it yourself. And so that's, it's the best piece of advice you can give to a, like, to a kid, "You figure it out."

Scott Galloway 31:41 I've started giving my kid pounds when he gets good grades. Is that wrong?

Kara Swisher 31:45 [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 31:45 I slip him-

Kara Swisher 31:46 Well-

Scott Galloway 31:46 I slip him a twenty pound. I slip him a note when he gets-

Kara Swisher 31:49 No

Scott Galloway 31:49 ... an A on a test.

Kara Swisher 31:50 Do not do that. Well-

Scott Galloway 31:51 No, totally.

Kara Swisher 31:52 No, no.

Scott Galloway 31:53 Absolutely.

Kara Swisher 31:53 Anyway, um-

Scott Galloway 31:54 That's called u- that's called capitalism.

Kara Swisher 31:56 Okay, whatever.

Scott Galloway 31:56 You gotta raise him to get a bunch of money.

Kara Swisher 31:58 Okay, all right. Whatever, whatever you wanna do there, Scott. We should write competing parenting books. Uh,

Kara Swisher 32:03 in the same genre about surveillance, as you know, that's another thing I go crazy about. Um, investigators in the Nancy Guthrie abduction case have recovered footage from the Nest doorbell. Nest is owned by Google. It was initially thought to have no video because there was no active subscription. When you sign up, you ha- for people who don't know, for Nest or any of these things, you can buy a subscription. If you don't, they say they don't keep the video. As it turns out, they do. The incident shows that Nest uploads video to Google's Cloud before you decide to keep it with a paid plan, so it can linger after it says it's been deleted, it is supposed to be deleted. I'm glad they got these pictures of this guy. At the same time, this is an edge case. They're, they're keeping your video. That, w- which I, which everyone thought they were doing, and they said they weren't. The FBI, working with Google engineers, took 10 days to recover the footage from Guthrie's camera. I... The companies need to spell out in plain English how long deleted footage actually remains on their servers. And by the way, they're also getting incredible pushback from the Ring ad for the Super Bowl, which is like, "We're watching everybody, but only for your dogs." And there's been a million memes about, "Only for people we need to take away." Like, the surveillance of these kind of things and the ease of which they are hacked, by the way, not just taken off the door like this terrible person did, um, but hacked into, are quite something. A lot of people are getting them hardwired into their house so that they can't do that, and also so that they can't be, um, taken via wireless. There's a lot of wireless activity here, but there are ways to... Th- a lot of these things are open season on your home. I don't-- W- when I was speaking of my son, uh, my kids, Alex, took- I had one of them up at one of our houses. When we bought it, it was there, one of these Amazon or Echos or whatever. He took them all out. He took... Uh, one day I came back, and everything was gone, and I was like, "Why?" And he goes, "Because they can watch us." [chuckles] And I was like: "Don't be paranoid." He goes: "I'm not." And he was right. So anyway-

Scott Galloway 33:59 I think we're-- I think we have a bit of a different view on this, in the sense that I think technology... I think we gave up our privacy a long time ago.

Kara Swisher 34:07 Yes, Scott McNealy, we did.

Scott Galloway 34:08 What I wanna see... Oh, remember Scott? Mm.

Kara Swisher 34:11 Yeah, he said that.

Scott Galloway 34:12 He said that.

Kara Swisher 34:12 "Privacy doesn't exist. Get used to it," remember?

Scott Galloway 34:14 If, if you are in London or New York-

Kara Swisher 34:16 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 34:16 ... you can't go more than, I think it's thirty feet-

Kara Swisher 34:19 Agreed

Scott Galloway 34:19 ... outside without a camera. And the reason they did that was they implemented massive- they have, like, a, uh, a security headquarters because of 9/11. And I actually, w- what I think you need, though, is really, really well thought out laws and institutions that say, "We're not gonna go fishing. Unless it's a felony crime, we don't investigate it."

Kara Swisher 34:43 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 34:43 In other words, people have the right... You said something I've thought about a lot-

Kara Swisher 34:47 Mm

Scott Galloway 34:47 ... and that is, people have the right to have secrets. [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 34:49 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:50 And if you wanna, if you wanna go into a store, if you're, I don't know, y- you, you should be able to do what you want.

Kara Swisher 34:57 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:57 If you murder somebody, then quite frankly, and there are enough, there's enough evidence to say that you are a-

Kara Swisher 35:07 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 35:07 ... reasonable person of interest, then we are going to utilize, uh, cameras, data-

Kara Swisher 35:14 I agree with you

Scott Galloway 35:14 ... video footage.

Kara Swisher 35:15 I agree with you. I just think you buy this product, and it says it isn't keeping it. If you don't pay for it, then it's not keeping it. Like, I'm sorry, it's just, that's just the deal. That's just the deal when you buy it. I have several of these, and I've taken most of them off my house, but they say ex... And I pay a lot of attention. We-- If you don't pay, this stuff is deleted. This is deleted. If it says it's deleted, it should be deleted. That's all. It's just the deal you make with them, and so I don't think they should keep it if it's supposed to be deleted. Same thing with Echo: it shouldn't be listening if it says it's not listening, right? That's which, that's... If you want it to listen, you can tell it. That's in your home. I'm talking about this. Outside, I think we've lost that battle. There are g- there, cameras are everywhere in Lon- talk about London. Monte Carlo is really wired. So is the United States of America, and that's a good thing when it comes to crime, but it's a very bad thing when it comes to inside of your house. 'Cause, Scott, I know, uh, if you wanna wear your frilly underwear, I think I... Ooh, wait, was that a secret? Um, i- I back people's-

Scott Galloway 36:15 I don't wear underwear

Kara Swisher 36:15 ... privacy in their homes. I'm just-

Scott Galloway 36:16 Daddy goes commando.

Kara Swisher 36:17 [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 36:18 Big Ed and the twins wanna be free.

Kara Swisher 36:20 ... But I, I think it's, it's, i- in this case, it was good to be able to get the picture of this guy. At the same time, she didn't, it, it, i- the intent wasn't to. So if plain English of what you're doing and how long it remains, and then it should tell you when it's deleted and permanently deleted. If they say permanently deleted, it needs to be deleted. That's j- I, I feel like that's the-

Scott Galloway 36:42 At some point, you should be able to have... You know, I have cameras around my house. You can see almost everything. If someone-

Kara Swisher 36:47 I know, I try to sneak in all the time. [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 36:48 If someone were to break in, but I think what you want is, like, i- uh, this is the hack that I think is coming. Somebody hacks into Uber with your Uber, if you use Uber a lot, I think you can find out when someone is t- with a thin layer of AI on top of your Uber trips-

Kara Swisher 37:06 They'll figure out where they go. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 37:08 They'll be able to know if you just terminated a pregnancy.

Kara Swisher 37:10 Yep.

Scott Galloway 37:11 Or if you're a Russian spy.

Kara Swisher 37:12 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 37:12 Why is this person continually going to the Russian Embassy?

Kara Swisher 37:15 Right.

Scott Galloway 37:15 Why is this per- Are you having-

Kara Swisher 37:17 Affairs with same sex?

Scott Galloway 37:19 - affairs with same-sex? I- i- a thin layer of AI on top of your ride history, when and where you are going places-

Kara Swisher 37:25 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 37:26 It would be um, they would-- it would be very easy to say, "Okay, this person is clearly suffering from diabetes."

Kara Swisher 37:34 Correct.

Scott Galloway 37:34 "This is why they keep going to this-

Kara Swisher 37:36 All this type

Scott Galloway 37:36 - type of clinic." You could... I- i- this person is clearly engaged in a love affair with this dude at this address.

Kara Swisher 37:46 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 37:47 I- this person is clearly-

Kara Swisher 37:48 This Kara Swisher is constantly going to Amtrak, but go ahead. [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 37:51 This person is clearly cooperating with the CIA, as evidenced-

Kara Swisher 37:55 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 37:55 ... by the fact they keep going to this one address-

Kara Swisher 37:58 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 37:58 ... that is a co-- They, they could find out.

Kara Swisher 38:01 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 38:01 So, uh, that hack, folks, i- this is, this is the trade we all make, and we all-

Kara Swisher 38:08 Yeah

Scott Galloway 38:08 ... talk a big game. Anyone who talks about privacy is typically over the age of fifty and in Brussels or DC. We consistently trade our privacy for utility.

Kara Swisher 38:18 Yep, we do.

Scott Galloway 38:18 And, and, uh, what I want is massively-- okay, u- unless it's a felony, maybe even more than that, it's a felony that, th- with, that has a threat of violence-

Kara Swisher 38:31 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 38:31 ... and there's really strong evidence against one person, all that shit is off-limits.

Kara Swisher 38:36 [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 38:36 No one can use it.

Kara Swisher 38:37 All I'm saying is, if they say it's off, it needs to be off. Like, I, I-

Scott Galloway 38:40 Or at least give you the power to delete it.

Kara Swisher 38:42 It's like if you buy, like, [exhales] I don't know, organic apple, it's not organic. You can't do that.

Scott Galloway 38:47 Yeah, that's fair.

Kara Swisher 38:48 You mean-- It's the same thing. You're selling a product, you say what it is, stay with what you say it is.

Scott Galloway 38:52 But at the same time, I love the fact... Okay, when, when there's a crime-

Kara Swisher 38:57 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 38:57 ... crime is hitting, despite all the scariness and everyone saying-

Kara Swisher 39:00 Low, low, low

Scott Galloway 39:00 ... whether it's, whether they saying, saying it's, you know, Eric Adams or Mayor Mamdani, or it's, it's bedlam in the streets.

Kara Swisher 39:06 Exactly.

Scott Galloway 39:06 Crime-- The number of shootings in New York last year, I think, hit, like, an all-time low.

Kara Swisher 39:10 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 39:10 Violence is going, and crime, violent crime, has consistently gone down the last several decades. It was-

Kara Swisher 39:17 Yeah

Scott Galloway 39:17 ... Is it because we're a better people? I don't think so.

Kara Swisher 39:20 It's not.

Scott Galloway 39:20 It's because if you commit crimes now, everyone has seen those Law & Order SUVs.

Kara Swisher 39:25 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 39:25 That if you, if you go into a 7-Eleven in the middle of fucking nowhere-

Kara Swisher 39:30 Yeah

Scott Galloway 39:30 ... and shoot the clerk-

Kara Swisher 39:32 You're filmed

Scott Galloway 39:32 ... ATMs have cameras.

Kara Swisher 39:34 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 39:34 So was there any ATMs outside?

Kara Swisher 39:36 Lot of cameras. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 39:36 Then they check the footage on the ATM.

Kara Swisher 39:38 I-

Scott Galloway 39:38 I like-- I don't like a surveillance state.

Kara Swisher 39:41 Right.

Scott Galloway 39:41 I like a state, I like a place where if a really strong lawyers, that where they consistently say, "I get you think a crime is committed here, there's not enough evidence, you do not have access to this video."

Kara Swisher 39:53 Right. I agree.

Scott Galloway 39:53 Full stop.

Kara Swisher 39:54 I, I agree.

Scott Galloway 39:54 Oh, there's evidence that you're planning a terrorist attack? Sorry, boss, we're violating your privacy rights-

Kara Swisher 40:00 Well, there are some-

Scott Galloway 40:00 ... in every ring light-

Kara Swisher 40:01 But we have due process

Scott Galloway 40:02 ... every Uber ride.

Kara Swisher 40:03 We still, I still think we have a due process. We cannot have-

Scott Galloway 40:06 Right

Kara Swisher 40:06 ... the wrong people getting a hold of this stuff. Anyway, I, I hope they find Nancy Guthrie, and I, I hope it helps that they have these, but we have to be-- It's, it brings up a big issue about surveillance, and we should pay attention to it. Um, a- a- and I hope it helps find, find her and bring her home safely to her family. Um, anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, uh, we'll talk about the latest in AI news. There's a lot of it. [music] Support for the show comes from Indeed. Hiring isn't just about finding someone willing to take the job, it's about connecting with someone who can move your business forward. For that, check out Indeed's Sponsored Jobs. Indeed Sponsored Jobs boosts your job posts for quality candidates, so you can reach people that can help your business thrive. People are finding quality hires on Indeed right now as we speak. In the minute I've been talking to you, twenty-seven hires were made on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. Join the three point three million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And listeners to this show will get a seventy-five dollar Sponsored Job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/pivot. Just go to indeed.com/pivot right now and support our show by saying you heard about it, Indeed, on this podcast, indeed.com/pivot. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring do the right way with Indeed. [music] Support for this show comes from Quince. Style doesn't come from chasing new trends every season. Real style comes from slowly and intentionally cultivating a wardrobe filled with high-quality staples that will last. And if you're on the lookout for a perfect addition to your closet, look no further than Quince. You'll find organic cotton sweaters, polos for every occasion, light jackets that will help keep you warm as the seasons change year after year. Not to mention, their famous hundred percent Mongolian cashmere. If there's anything better than cashmere, I'd love to hear it. Every Quince item is built for everyday wear and made with ethically sourced materials from top factories. And by partnering with manufacturers directly, Quince keeps things affordable, so you're only paying for the quality clothing and not the brand markup. I have finally bought new Quince clothes, not just, uh, soft pants that I can wear when I do sports. I actually bought more of those, but I also bought a lovely cardigan that is so soft. I wear it all the time. I fell asleep in it the other day. I bought a beautiful jacket, and I just love it. I have to say, this, this cardigan I'm wearing is so comfortable. It's really good-looking, the fabric, everything else, it feels richer than it was. Um, and the same thing with the coat. It's really good-looking, and I really like wearing it. Again, comfortable, simple, uh, and just lovely. I really, really like it. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait. Go to quince.com/pivot for free shipping on your orders and three hundred and sixty-five day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C dot com slash pivot, P-I-V-O-T, to get free shipping and three hundred and sixty-five day returns. quince.com/pivot. [music]

Kara Swisher 43:08 ... Scott, we're back with more news. Time for rapid fire of AI news. First up, Anthropic is in the final stages of raising twenty billion dollars in new capital at a valuation of three hundred and fifty billion dollar, uh, valuation. Also, at Anthropic, a researcher submitted a resignation letter saying the world is in peril, saying employees constantly face pressures to set aside what matters most. That researcher is going off to write poetry, by the way, which should trouble you. Over at xAI, Elon Musk has lost two co-founders, Jimmy Ba and Tony Wu, both announced their departure as a big restructuring over there, too, when he-- as he's brought it into, uh, SpaceX. The company at OpenAI, the company's fired an executive after he opposed plans for an AI erotica feature in ChatGPT, citing sexual discrimination. We don't actually know what happened here. Uh, Anthropic raised the funding, uh, raised twice the funding initially sought, uh, based on investor demand. Uh, so thoughts on any of these stories? Lots of different-- [chuckles] Lots of stuff happening around AI again.

Scott Galloway 44:07 Yeah, the why people get fired or why they say they were fired, I don't know. I haven't sorted through that. What I, I think it's already happened, whether it's reflected in the valuations or not. I think Anthropic is now worth more than OpenAI. I think OpenAI-

Kara Swisher 44:22 What was their valuation? Eight hundred billion?

Scott Galloway 44:23 Well, they're-- So I think they're trying to close a round at eight hundred and fifty.

Kara Swisher 44:26 Yeah, eight fifty.

Scott Galloway 44:27 But with that one VC who i- kind of- i- if there was a moment where the, the, the balloon was burst, if you will, the bubble was burst, it was when that VC had Sam Altman on his podcast and said: "You've made a trillion dollars in spending commitments on a company with twenty billion in revenue. How are you gonna do that?" And he got very defensive about it, and they've gone consumer, Anthropic's gone enterprise. Uh, uh, they haven't made the kind of crazy commitments. I, I think there's been the kind of the mother-of-all industrial pivots. I, I think now, if you will, Avis is now Hertz. I think Anthropic is now worth more-

Kara Swisher 45:05 But three hundred and fifty billion

Scott Galloway 45:05 ... or will be soon than OpenAI.

Kara Swisher 45:07 They are not making the money.

Scott Galloway 45:10 Yeah, that's-- But they're, they're stronger in the enterprise. Anyways, I, uh, none of this makes any sense in terms of a multiple on revenues, but, uh, I think, I think OpenAI is in real, um... I don't know. Crisis is the wrong word.

Kara Swisher 45:26 On xAI? There's a lot of arguments over on X about that they have now do not have-- He, he- his big thing was, "I have the best AI researchers." Now, he does not, right? From what most people, intelligent people, are saying, uh, about it. But, you know, he always does this. He always goes in and shakes the tree and then shakes the tree again. That's his, that's his MO, I guess. They're a distant, what, third or fourth or something?

Scott Galloway 45:49 Well, these guys are all... H- here's an, a, a, a symbol of how easy it is and how difficult or how vulnerable they are. It says here are some, Dario and Daniela Amodei, uh, were at OpenAI, now at Anthropic. Ilya Sutskever, OpenAI, now at Safe Superintelligence. Aravind Srinivas, OpenAI, now at Perplexity. Mira Murati, OpenAI, now at Thinking Machines. Arthur Mensch was at Google, now at Mistral AI. It's the brightest minds here are-

Kara Swisher 46:21 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 46:21 ... supposedly in w-- I used to work with a lot of luxury brands, and they said the biggest problem they were having in China-

Kara Swisher 46:27 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 46:27 ... is that at the biggest malls, if Prada was, had a store across the street from Bottega Veneta-

Kara Swisher 46:32 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 46:33 ... if, if the manager of that Prada didn't have people show up, he could go across the street during the lunch hour at the, to the lunch court and offer someone eleven bucks an hour from the Bottega store, who was making ten, and they wouldn't even go back after their lunch break. They would go over and work at-- It was just so easy to pick off people by offering them a dollar more per hour, and it feels so many of these deep-- these people who have, you know, fairly or unfairly, have established themselves as some of the few minds that really understand this stuff, the amount of money and temptation to go do their own thing or join another firm, it is-- I mean, supposedly, wasn't there reports that Zuckerberg was paying some people a hundred to three hundred million dollars?

Kara Swisher 47:17 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 47:17 And then he wasn't. I mean, it just feels like it's total, I don't know, bedlam right now. [chuckles] Just-

Kara Swisher 47:24 Right. It's, it's, it's-- They all think they're gonna be the one, right? "I'm gonna be the final one standing, and I'm gonna own the world," essentially, which is a bet. It's a bet, right? I think one of the things that continues to plague these companies are these researchers who are like, "We're fucked, everybody." Like, they come out and j- almost, you know, like, they're sort of like, "Shh, it's gonna kill us."

Scott Galloway 47:46 I think, uh, but quite frankly, Kara, I think a lot of it is people [exhales] backfilling, uh, the reason why they're living with-- leaving with morality sometimes or some sort of victimhood. If you look at-- J- just to go back to musical chairs here, if you look at xAI, the company lost its second co-founder in just two days, and that means that half of xAI's founding team, six of the twelve, have left the company in less than three years of existence. And Musk said, you know, "W- w- we've reorganized xAI to improve the speed of execution, which required parting some ways with some people." And I think for some of these founders, there's legal risk to staying at xAI. The EU is currently investigating the company for its creation of non-consensual sexual deepfakes based on real people, including children. So this really is the Wild West. This is, um, uh, you know, I don't know, I, I-- It's just, it's so difficult to e- even keep track of-

Kara Swisher 48:45 Yeah, yeah

Scott Galloway 48:46 ... you know, who ends up where and why.

Kara Swisher 48:48 It's like, it's like as if as, [exhales] science people went crazy, right? But I, I do think the warnings are getting really interesting. [chuckles] They're like, "I wish someone would just explain what-- We're in peril, how? How are we in peril?"

Scott Galloway 48:59 Why? Yeah, how does that manifest? What does that mean?

Kara Swisher 49:01 Hey, [chuckles] hey. Like, uh, it's like the people who knew that we're about-- You know, in those movies, where a bunch of people know we're about to get hit by a, like, a comet or something, and they're not telling us? They're like, "I would- [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 49:14 Yeah, is it, is it Arnold-

Kara Swisher 49:15 ... I would harm your family." Why? [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 49:17 Is it Arnold Schwar- Schwarzenegger showing up at your door wearing Oakleys and a lot of leather?

Kara Swisher 49:21 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 49:21 Like, what is it-

Kara Swisher 49:22 Yeah. What is happening?

Scott Galloway 49:23 What does it look like here? What does it, what does it mean?

Kara Swisher 49:25 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 49:25 'Cause the employment destruction-

Kara Swisher 49:27 Yeah

Scott Galloway 49:27 ... that was supposed to be already well underway-

Kara Swisher 49:29 I don't know. Poetry

Scott Galloway 49:29 ... I would argue, is not happening yet.

Kara Swisher 49:31 I don't know, but why would someone say they're in peril? We're in peril.... and set aside what matters most, which is safety, presumably, and then they go off and write poetry. I would like some more information, if you don't mind. If you're gonna do that, you need to tell me.

Scott Galloway 49:44 Yeah, why, exactly? Why are we in peril? [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 49:46 Why are we in peril? What-

Scott Galloway 49:48 Save us from what?

Kara Swisher 49:49 Tell me. Tell us. I know, and I know there's these legal things, but if it's so terrifying, you need to, like, step out and, like, tell us, tell us what it is, and have-- bring, bring proof, too, by the way. Would love to know when the comet's gonna hit us. In any case, uh-

Scott Galloway 50:04 But the VP of product policy at OpenAI was fired after she voiced opposition to OpenAI's upcoming erotica features-

Kara Swisher 50:11 Right

Scott Galloway 50:11 -for adult users.

Kara Swisher 50:12 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:13 She, she did flag-

Kara Swisher 50:15 They were claiming something else

Scott Galloway 50:15 ... that enabling erotica would likely strengthen feelings that users already have for the chatbot.

Kara Swisher 50:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:20 Based on a recent report released by OpenAI-

Kara Swisher 50:22 Probably

Scott Galloway 50:22 ... out of ChatGPT's eight hundred million weekly users, one point two million users are prioritizing talking to ChatGPT over their family, friends, school, or work. That's less than what I thought.

Kara Swisher 50:34 Oh, my God!

Scott Galloway 50:34 Roughly five hundred and sixty k are experiencing psychosis or mania.

Kara Swisher 50:38 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:38 This is shitty research. As a, as a d- as a ratio by eight hundred million people, is that normal or not normal?

Kara Swisher 50:44 It's a lot.

Scott Galloway 50:44 And about one point two million people discuss suicide with ChatGPT.

Kara Swisher 50:48 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:48 Again, what I wanna see is someone to say-

Kara Swisher 50:51 Please

Scott Galloway 50:51 ... "All right, is that just a function of people who are depressed thinking they can talk to ChatGPT just as they would talk-

Kara Swisher 50:55 Yeah, exactly

Scott Galloway 50:55 -to a friend or a therapist?

Kara Swisher 50:57 Right.

Scott Galloway 50:57 Or is it something about talking to ChatGPT-

Kara Swisher 51:00 Right, you get the psychosis

Scott Galloway 51:00 - insides suicidal ideation or psychosis?

Kara Swisher 51:03 I think the last, latter. You know, interesting, I just did an interview with Sherry Turkle for my doc series, and she's been saying it for years, and she's like: "I've never seen anything like it now. It was before on the sidelines and in the darker places or people had-- you know, it was a small group of people." She goes: "It's really gone mainstream in a way." I, I would like the information from these people. Would you come out and bring a bag and bring it to me or Scott or something like that? Anyway-

Scott Galloway 51:27 You can bring it to me.

Kara Swisher 51:27 Well, yeah, bring it to-

Scott Galloway 51:28 Bring it to Kara Swisher.

Kara Swisher 51:29 Kara Swisher. On a

Kara Swisher 51:30 separate note, w- speaking of sort of normal journalism and getting information out, one of the most depressing things is Hong Kong media mogul and pro-democracy activist Jimmy Lai was sentenced this week to twenty years in prison after being found guilty in a, a sedition and collusion with foreign forces. It's the longest sentence ever handed down under Beijing-

Scott Galloway 51:47 It's a death sentence.

Kara Swisher 51:48 Death sentence. Uh, Lai's children are saying a potential visit by President Trump to China in April could be crucial in securing the release of their seventy-eight-year-old father. This is something Trump should do. Back in December, Trump said he asked ch- uh, President Xi to consider releasing Lai, but on the campaign trail in twenty twenty-four, he was a lot more confident, saying: "A hundred percent I'll get him out. It'll be easy to get out." He's not so easy to get out. Uh, let's not forget the, the real surveillance economy, the real control economy. We've talked about these issues around control and the uses of AI for badness. Um, China wins the boats everywhere, and they, they go after this guy, who's a really important, um, figure, um, uh, figure in, in this area. And so, uh, if President Trump can do anything, please do it. If anyone can do anything, but Jimmy Lai is a hero, and, and what's happened to him is a, is, as you say, a death sentence.

Scott Galloway 52:40 Look, I go to the economics. W- when you start imprisoning journalists, whether it was Turkey in twenty twelve, Soviet Union at the turn of the century, or China, uh, putting the-- you know, taking a very hard-fisted approach to Hong Kong in twenty twenty-one, as kind of best epitomized by Jimmy Lai being imprisoned, distinctive, the morality of it, distinctive, the importance it plays in a society, the nation gets poorer and angrier. It's a-- It is literally a conar-- a canary in the coal mine saying: We are about to send a chill across some of the most talented people, and scrutiny about what can be said about companies that hurts the economy. The nations get poorer and angrier, and i- it's literally a symbol of when an economy is about to move to an authoritarian state, which is really bad for innovation, for attracting outside capital. W- when you're thinking about investing in Turkey, and all of a sudden they start locking up journalists, does that thing, does that, does that... If you're Google, you think: "Yeah, I'm gonna start-- I'm gonna open an office in, I'm gonna open an office in Istanbul?" Or you're thinking: "You know, I'm gonna wait and see if they sort that out." If you're one of the brightest PhDs in the world, and you're doing research on authoritarian governments, you're doing research on innovation, and you're worried that your research might, might co- might contradict something that the leadership is espousing to, do you go teach at those universities? No, you go somewhere else. So i- i- uh, this is... Look, China is not, you know, is not a model for... B- but having said that, I was just supposed to be on with Don Lemon, who got arrested.

Kara Swisher 54:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:20 Why the fuck is- [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 54:20 Exactly.

Scott Galloway 54:21 Why are they arresting Don Lemon?

Kara Swisher 54:23 Don Lemon, like, give me a break. They shouldn't be arresting any journalist like this. It's just ridiculous. Uh, I would agree. Um, I'm gonna finish up with-- Anyway, Jimmy Lai, let's get him out. Let's, let's get him out. He's a hero. Um, I'm gonna, uh, finish

Kara Swisher 54:35 up with something that just happened. Um, Gail Slater, who a hugely respected lawyer, antitrust lawyer, who's running antitrust at DOJ, just announced she's stepping down. It follows, uh, the, the resignation of a guy named Mark Hammer, who was one of her, his, uh, her top deputies. She's had clashes with Pam Bondi over the handling of antitrust investigations. I- I've heard she was in a real bind over the Paramount thing. They're trying to, like, shove through things that are friendly to the Trump administration, and she just can't do it. She can't do it. During her eleven months on the job, she found herself in this bind, caught between the Trump administration's, um... I- i- she was close to J.D. Vance. This is a very respected and well-regarded antitrust person. This should be an enormous signal that Gail Slater is stepping down. Um, I'd hoped to talk to her, but, uh, everyone had told me sh- they didn't know what she was gonna do about the, the Netflix Paramount thing. Um, you cannot be against the Netflix thing if you're not against the Paramount thing [chuckles] I'm sorry. Like, and, of course, she's being-- you know, she, she, she had a- she's been put in a bind all over the place. A, a talented and, and well-res- regarded person is put into a bind, and so she's stepping down. Um, I just don't know who-- They'll put in some idiot, like a Brandon Carr type of person, who will just do what they say. Um, but it really brings it down rather significantly. Even, uh, even, um, uh-... Megan Del Rahoon, who works for Paramount actually now, very well-regarded. Like, they're, they're gonna have to put in a, in a village fucking idiot in the Pam Bondi mode, so not a good sign, not a good sign.

Scott Galloway 56:05 Agree.

Kara Swisher 56:06 Anyway, uh, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. [upbeat music]

Scott Galloway 56:11 Support for the show comes from NetSuite. We all hear all the time how AI can push businesses to new frontiers. If you're still not sure what that actually looks like, particularly for you and your company, then look no further than NetSuite by Oracle. NetSuite is a top AI cloud ERP trusted by over forty-three thousand businesses. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into a single source of truth. With all that connected data, your AI doesn't throw out its best guess. It actually knows what it's talking about. It can intelligently automate routine tasks, deliver actionable insights, and help make fast AI-powered decisions with confidence. Now, with NetSuite AI Connector, you can use the AI of your choice to connect to your actual business data, plus you can automate those tiresome manual processes. It's AI built into the system that runs your business, affording you total flexibility. Get ahead of the game and put AI to work today with NetSuite. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get the free business guide, Demystifying AI, at netsuite.com/pivot. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/pivot, netsuite.com/pivot.

Kara Swisher 57:13 [upbeat music] Okay,

Kara Swisher 57:16 Scott, let's hear a prediction.

Scott Galloway 57:18 I think that what was supposed to be the most anticipated IPO, maybe with the expe- exception of kind of SpaceX AI, Tesla, the-

Kara Swisher 57:29 Whatever. Tesla's not in there yet.

Scott Galloway 57:30 Probably the most anticipated was Open... The IPO of OpenAI in twenty twenty-six, sometime this year or early twenty seven. I don't think that's gonna happen. Um, I think that-

Kara Swisher 57:42 Whoa!

Scott Galloway 57:42 Yeah, I think this company is, is now, is gone into full, um, I don't call it panic mode, but it feels as if the mo- momentum has a habit of creating more momentum, and I think the momentum is really negative around this company. Uh-

Kara Swisher 57:57 What happens then? Where does it go? What does it do?

Scott Galloway 57:59 Well, it... They-- I think they'll substantially, um, scale back their-- I mean, have you already seen the war-- Have you ever seen Jensen Huang and Sam Altman, who were, you know, bud buddies, are already shitposting each other?

Kara Swisher 58:12 Right.

Scott Galloway 58:12 Claiming that the hundred billion dollar agreement with- was a framework, and they're actually not gonna... The hundred billion dollar investment-

Kara Swisher 58:18 May I just say, you said that.

Scott Galloway 58:21 Well, that was ridiculous. These circular deals, I'll give you a hundred billion-- I'll invest a hundred billion if you invest a hundred billion in our chips, and now S- and now, quote, unquote, "Jensen's backtracking" and saying: Well, it was just a framework. They couldn't justify it. NVIDIA's stock has gone down because people are worried about exposure to OpenAI, so what does OpenAI do? They start shitposting NVIDIA and saying, "No, it's 'cause their chips didn't live up to our expectations." When, when the biggest player in the space, Jensen Huang, and kind of the young gun, OpenAI, start shitposting each other, and, and they back out of this hundred billion dollar investment framework, that is a really bad sign.

Kara Swisher 59:00 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 59:01 That means-

Kara Swisher 59:01 He kept using, what was the word? "We're honored to be invited." What was he saying? It was so funny. [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 59:06 Yeah, but they're both going on background now and blaming each other.

Kara Swisher 59:08 Oh, totally, utterly.

Scott Galloway 59:09 Can I-

Kara Swisher 59:09 Like, can I just give people a lesson? When you hear sources close to the situation, if they were any closer to either of them, they'd be on the other side of them.

Scott Galloway 59:16 [chuckles] That's them, right? The-- So I think, I think the momentum-

Kara Swisher 59:22 Yes

Scott Galloway 59:22 ... the, the worm has turned, and it's not that OpenAI isn't an unbelievable company that could go public at, like, a fifty billion dollar market capitalization.

Kara Swisher 59:29 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 59:29 But the problem is, when you sell some investors in at two fifty, four fifty, and then if he's able to close this round at eight fifty, they're not willing to go public or let you have a liquidity event that cuts their... What happens in an IPO, say, he went public at three hundred billion next year and said: "Okay, the market isn't what we thought." Unless there's a couple of years where the latest round of investors get so fatigued they're willing to take a sixty percent haircut, all of your shares, the last round of investment has a preference, meaning they- they're the first money out. So the fifty or a hundred billion going in at eight fifty doesn't wanna give up their liquidity preference and let them go public if they're going public at less than eight fifty, which I think they would. So your last round of investors become a veto block for going public, unless you're gonna go public at a valuation greater than eight fifty.

Kara Swisher 1:00:17 So what do they do? You haven't answered my question.

Scott Galloway 1:00:20 They'll dramatic-- In my opinion, they'll dramatically scale back their capital, their CapEx, and they'll end up with a much smaller, much less ambitious, amazing company that's only worth a hundred or two hundred billion. It's only one of the thirty most valuable companies in America, not the-

Kara Swisher 1:00:34 Get bought? What hap-- Well, that means everyone else will get collapsed, right or not?

Scott Galloway 1:00:39 I think the whole... My opinion, if you look at, and I look at weird signals, the percentage of ads at the Super Bowl, right? If you look at all this, I think there's a ton of anecdotal evidence showing that while AI may live up to its potential, the market cap of the biggest players this year-

Kara Swisher 1:00:55 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 1:00:55 ... is about to throw up.

Kara Swisher 1:00:56 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:00:56 Which isn't to say that similar in two thousand, when the market cap of Amazon went down ninety-five percent, it's still not gonna be an unbelievable company. But I think we're about to see a dramatic recalibration in the markets, which includes OpenAI's IPO plans getting queered. Now, who's gonna take their place? And this is the prediction.

Kara Swisher 1:01:14 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:01:15 The most impressive numbers, hands down, that no one... I wasn't expecting-

Kara Swisher 1:01:19 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 1:01:20 ... Calci. Calci's-

Kara Swisher 1:01:22 Calci

Scott Galloway 1:01:22 ... year on year-

Kara Swisher 1:01:24 Calci, not Polymarket, right?

Scott Galloway 1:01:25 Well, Calci's, Calci's actually, of the two, the clean, well-lit space of this-

Kara Swisher 1:01:32 I see. Okay

Scott Galloway 1:01:33 ... of this marketplace, right?

Kara Swisher 1:01:34 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:01:35 It's a little-- Calci is CFTC-regulated. It's also in the US. It's peer-to-peer trading. It's federally regulated. Um, I have some-- I don't have moral clarity around these issues because I do think they tap into the dopa of a young, more risk-aggressive male brain.

Kara Swisher 1:01:51 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:01:51 But just let me go straight to the numbers here.

Kara Swisher 1:01:53 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:01:54 In twenty twenty-six, or in this Super Bowl, right?... over a billion dollars in trading volume on Kalshi. That's up two thousand seven hundred percent. It was up twenty-eight fold this year, and you know who's getting absolutely the shit kicked out of them? Is Flutter as the gambling sites. Th- they're killing these guys. The sports market accounted for about ninety percent of Kalshi's activity this month, and it's, it's having an incredible impact on traditional gambling and sportsbook. Um, i- i- analysts have noted that Kalshi's ride, ride, rise coincides with the underperformance in major sportsbook stock prices, DraftKings, Flutter, as traders shift some activity towards prediction markets. And with a venue that's easy to access nationwide, which Kalshi is, even in states without legal sports betting, the firm is attracting bettors who might otherwise, uh, have used traditional sportsbooks. So this is, this company, and my, my prediction is the following: OpenAI, way to the downside, doesn't get public. Kalshi is about- is gonna be, in my opinion, the kind of IPO we're all trying to get into in Q2 of Q3 of this year.

Kara Swisher 1:03:07 Kalshi it is? All right, well, that's interesting. You've been sounding this alarm for these companies. Interesting. Fascinating. That's a big one. Scott, that's a big one.

Scott Galloway 1:03:15 We'll see, right?

Kara Swisher 1:03:16 Yeah. Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nytmag.com/pivot to send a question for the show, or call eight five five five one pivot. Uh, elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, this week on Prof G Markets, Scott spoke with Eswar Prasad, Professor of Trade Policy and Economics at Cornell University, to discuss why he thinks economics, domestic politics, and geopolitics are stuck in a doom loop. Doom loop! Let's listen to a clip.

Speaker 1:03:44 [whooshing sound] Globalization used to be seen as a positive sum game, where countries could benefit mutually from trade, and that would be an offset to what is intrinsically the zero-sum game of geopolitics, where one country can gain influence only at the expense of another. But now, even globalization has become seen as a zero-sum game, so it isn't offsetting the zero-sum game of geopolitics. And worse, some of the negative dynamics of globalization have started infecting domestic politics, not just in the US, but in many other countries.

Kara Swisher 1:04:17 God, I feel smarter already. If you-

Scott Galloway 1:04:19 Uh, you know, there's a, a, a, Professor, um-

Kara Swisher 1:04:23 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 1:04:23 ... Prasad, the, the, one of the things that struck me, and I said this, we graduated the same year from-

Kara Swisher 1:04:29 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 1:04:29 ... undergraduate. Me from UCLA, him from the University of Madras.

Kara Swisher 1:04:33 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:04:34 I graduated with a two point two seven GPA with an incredible ability to make bongs out of any household item.

Kara Swisher 1:04:40 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 1:04:40 He won a scholarship in India that identified, like, one of the fifty smartest kids of a billion kids.

Kara Swisher 1:04:46 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:04:47 And so what i- what i- what does a guy who's one of the fifty... Like, he- this guy could walk into the Rose Bowl and take the average IQ of those eighty thousand people up a couple points. That's how smart and hardworking this man is. So what are we doing to th- what are we saying to these people now? Can you imagine a kid coming out of-

Kara Swisher 1:05:03 Ugh, agreed

Scott Galloway 1:05:03 ... University of Madras right now in twenty twenty six? Is he gonna go to Brown?

Kara Swisher 1:05:07 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:05:07 No, he's gonna go to McGill-

Kara Swisher 1:05:08 McGill

Scott Galloway 1:05:08 ... or he's gonna go to Instituto Empresa-

Kara Swisher 1:05:10 That's right.

Scott Galloway 1:05:11 Or he's gonna go to INSEAD.

Kara Swisher 1:05:12 Yep.

Scott Galloway 1:05:13 Or who knows? Maybe, maybe the University of Córdoba in Argentina. I mean, we are-

Kara Swisher 1:05:18 Speaking of doom loops.

Scott Galloway 1:05:19 We're-

Kara Swisher 1:05:19 Academic doom loops. Yep.

Scott Galloway 1:05:20 [chuckles] We're the sports team that used to have access to the number one draft-

Kara Swisher 1:05:24 Yeah

Scott Galloway 1:05:24 ... of any college in the world, and we've said, "No, we don't want you."

Kara Swisher 1:05:27 And now we just have Prof- Prof G coming back to the United States. [chuckles] Anyway, uh, it s- it sounds like a great interview. I'll be listening to it. That is the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. Uh, we'll be back next week. [upbeat music]