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The Dangers of Donald Trump's Dictator Praise | Pivot

Is Donald Trump's praise of dictators bluster, or part of a larger strategy? NYU professor and author of "Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present," Ruth Ben-Ghiat, talks to Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway about how Donald Trump's behavior is reminiscent of other autocratic leaders. #pivot #podcast #donaldtrump

Kara SwisherhostRuth Ben-GhiatguestScott Gallowayhost
Apr 10, 202419mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 4:05

    Introduction

    1. KS

      Ruth, uh, Ben, Bengioot is a professor of history at NYU and author of Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present. She also writes the Substack Lucid, ooh, what a good name, which focuses on abuses of power and threats to democracy. Ruth, welcome.

    2. RB

      Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.

    3. KS

      So we wanna talk dictators. Uh, I wanna start with something you posted on X last week after Donald Trump shared violent imagery of Joe Biden. On Truth Social, you wrote, "Wake up people. This is an emergency." Uh, a lot of people have concerns about that imagery, but what was it specifically that made you sound the alarm here? You've do- been doing it for a while, so I'm not so sure that it's the newest thing in the world for you, but, but talk about why, why that bothered you in particular of the many things that could bother you about Donald Trump.

    4. RB

      Yeah. So i- it's about, you know, 'cause, 'cause I feel like, uh, Donald Trump has been, um, waging, and his GOP enablers have been waging a, a whole campaign to delegitimize all of our democratic institutions-

    5. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RB

      ... and in particular, uh, you know, attacking Joe Biden. This was an image which, uh, showed Joe Biden. It was a, you know, a sticker on the back of a pickup, uh, as though he were a hostage, uh, kidnapped. And if you study coups, a third of my book, Strongmen, is about coups and authoritarian takeovers.

    7. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RB

      What is this showing? It's showing an outcome of a political situation where Biden is, has met a bad end, where he's somehow been overthrown and ended up tied up. (laughs)

    9. KS

      Mm-hmm. Right.

    10. RB

      And this is being, uh, you know, this is being depicted as something positive. And so it's-

    11. KS

      Right.

    12. RB

      ... continuing the coup and it's just, it's, it's extremely dangerous, uh, for obvious reasons and I feel like this is, um, normalizing this is allowing people-

    13. KS

      Which is the point, right?

    14. RB

      Yeah.

    15. KS

      I mean, you, you called it, you said Trump's repeated ev-, uh, elevation of dictators as models of leadership should be understood as part of a re-education strategy.

    16. RB

      Yeah.

    17. KS

      And one thing he does, is this is not new, he did that with CNN, if you remember him punching CNN.

    18. RB

      Yep.

    19. KS

      That, this was years ago. He, he did one that I wrote a column about when he was, you know, not just, um, you know, "Stand by and stand," whatever the heck he said. He says it a lot. It's b- it's not a new, fresh thing, but you're calling it a re-education strategy-

    20. RB

      Yep.

    21. KS

      ... that's been ongoing, right? That it hasn't stopped, the coup, and he continues to do that. Explain why, 'cause, 'cause he says he's joking. He says he's kidding.

    22. RB

      Yep.

    23. KS

      He's, this is just him, that this is his brand of humor, (laughs) such that it's not funny, but still. Um, talk about the re-education part of it.

    24. RB

      Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's interesting. What he's been doing, uh, and this is since the fascists, uh, Mussolini and Hitler, you've got to re-educate people, uh, to see violence in a positive way, and even make it into something patriotic and even morally righteous. And Trump has been using his rallies since 2015 and, uh, this was part of my report for the January 6th committee. He's been just over and over saying like, "Oh, in the good old days, we used to be able to punch, you know, protesters."

    25. KS

      Right. Right.

    26. RB

      So there's that vector. And then, uh, he's been also elevating dictators. Like, doesn't matter, you know, North Korea, China, whatever they are, Communist, fascist, uh, as, as positive models of leadership.

    27. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    28. RB

      (laughs)

    29. KS

      Orbán. He had, he recently-

    30. RB

      Yeah.

  2. 4:05 – 8:53

    The Politics of Trump

    1. RB

    2. SG

      It's nice to meet you, Professor. I don't think we've met before. Um, so w- we spent a lot of time talking about what a danger Trump is and how wrong and really, um, anti-American a lot of his activities, much less his rhetoric are. But he was, he was elected, uh, by the US and he continues to poll really well despite all of these things that are horrific to everyone on this podcast. Wh- wh- wh- what is it about the atmospherics in the US, um, um, that has led the populous to support this individual who we all agree, uh, does not acquit himself as we would want someone who wants to be the president? What, what's happened in America? What's changed here?

    3. RB

      That's a great question, and, um, there are patterns to these things and, uh, in the research for my book, when, when there's been a perception that, um, there's been too much social pro- progress and-

    4. SG

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RB

      ... and certain people are losing out, uh, it could be conservative elites, uh, who are worried about losing their privileges, um, it could be people thinking there's too much gender emancipation, too much, uh, racial emancipation, you get a kind of counterrevolution.

    6. SG

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RB

      Uh, that's, uh, that's a big word. Or you get a backlash. (laughs)

    8. SG

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RB

      And, and that's when somebody like a Donald Trump is appealing. But, but a Donald Trump also, uh, models himself for that environment. And the thing about these strongmen is that they're highly sensitive to, they read the marketplace and they understand what is, uh, want- what is wanted and they model themselves, they will be whatever they need to be to get to power because they have no morals. They're just about getting control. So, so Donald Trump comes up and he was the perfect person as the anti-Obama, um, and he, he was the, the male brute, so he addressed the people who felt that, you know, women had too much power, uh, same sex marriages were taking over, all of the racial stuff-... and so that's, that's what he did and he c- and he also told these people that he loved them, that they were the forgotten, and so there's a sense that he's not just gonna represent them, he's gonna protect them and take care of them.

    10. KS

      A daddy, a big daddy.

    11. RB

      He's daddy.

    12. KS

      Right.

    13. RB

      He's big daddy and he's remained big daddy. And once they bond to him and they feel protected, uh, but they're also protective of him because he's also the victim. And Mussolini was the victim, Erdoğan's the victim. They all do this and it's highly effective, this m- manipulation of emotion. Scott, you write about, you know, masculinity and, and emotions and, and Trump is the latest example-

    14. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. RB

      ... of somebody who is extremely skilled at using this.

    16. SG

      Can I, can I ask a follow-up, Kara?

    17. RB

      Sure. Go ahead, go ahead.

    18. SG

      Okay? Uh, first off, professor-

    19. KS

      Yeah, please.

    20. SG

      ... I, I just think what, I think that's such an important point because, uh, I've been thinking a lot about Roe recently and I don't think people zero in on some of the things you're talking about to really understand and I would just wanna double click on it. My sense is you talk about them wanting to return to an era where they were more comfortable and I think it's more specific than that. Um, just as young men have fallen further faster than any group in America, the ascent globally of women over the last 30 years is unprecedented. They've doubled their elected positions in parliaments, there are now more women globally enrolled in tertiary education than men and I think the extreme of any religion is really uncomfortable and wants these uppity women to sit down and I think it's, I think it's, I think that's what Roe is. I don't think it's about birth. Isn't this specifically about telling, um, very conservative sects who, sects of, uh, of, of, of religious extremists who have disproportionate power and unfortunately young men who feel shunned by women that, "I'm gonna take power back from women?"

    21. RB

      Oh, totally. And who better than a repeated, you know, abuser? Uh, somebody who boasts about, you know, uh, putting women in their place and, and this was part of his marketing strategy from the very beginning and that's why when the, um, Holly- the Access Hollywood stuff came out, I knew that it would actually help him-

    22. SG

      Hmm.

    23. RB

      ... because you know, this who, these are the people I study. It's been a, it was horrible to write the book and be in their heads. You know, Mussolini was a serial rapist, um, and many others. Gaddafi as well. So this is part of their, their glamour and until we, uh, (laughs) wean ourselves from this kind of toxic brute, you know, idea that this, uh, brute force, this, this, this ideal of masculinity is glamorous and desirable, we're going to be susceptible to these Donald Trumps.

    24. KS

      So can you ask the similarities? Can I pick up on that between Trump and some of these classic dictators? I did not know that about Mu- Mussolini. Are there differences

  3. 8:53 – 13:40

    Similarities and Differences

    1. KS

      also?

    2. RB

      Yeah. The outcomes are different. So, you know, we're not gonna, whatever happens, it's not gonna be, uh, a Hitlerian one-party state or, or a North Korean one-party state but, um, the similarities are that they, these people are highly, uh, sophisticated at communication and whatever the era they're in, they use the latest tools of communication to forge a direct and unmediated bond with their followers. So Mussolini, uh, you know, was, he was gesticulating and he started in the age of silent cinema. He used newsreels. Now Hitler, of course, he had the radio, um, and he ranted and the Nazis invested in, like, state of the art, uh, audio technology, uh, so that when he had rallies, his voice would reverberate in ways that made him feel, seem more godly because that's part of the personality cult. So they all do personality cults which the, it's so interesting, the rules have not changed for 100 years. You have to be a man of the people so you're relatable and certainly Trump is but you have to be the man above all other men, so they all use this and so Modi used, um, holograms, uh, when he ran, uh, initially for office so he could be everywhere and nowhere like a god. Uh, Berlusconi, who owned TV networks, used satellite TV to be everywhere and Trump used Twitter. So that's one thing they do. They have these bonds with, uh, that people feel they're speaking directly and only to them which is, which hasn't changed for 100 years.

    3. KS

      If you're advising the White House, how would you match this? Because Biden's certainly not that person.

    4. RB

      I, yeah, I think, um, in general, uh, the, we can learn from autocrats, uh, uh, to make more use of emotion in politics. There's, one of the things that autocrats do really well is create these tribes and these communities and they make people feel cared for. Now, it's bogus. Of course they're just really trying to manipulate them. Trump doesn't care. You know, at the beginning of the pandemic, I did an interview and I told, I said that, uh, "Trump doesn't care if you live or die," and people got upset but that's just how it is. But they seem to care about people so, so democrats in general around the world can make more use of emotion, of joy, of hope, of love and, and Biden does this in his own quiet way but, um, it, it, it, it'd be ideal if, if it's somebody who is a more charismatic, energetic vehicle for that kind of, uh, emotion.

    5. KS

      Is there someone like that? Is there someone like that?

    6. RB

      Um, I'm, I'm not sure. I mean, I'm a big fan of Pete Buttigieg as a communicator.

    7. KS

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    8. RB

      Um, and he's, he's been, he's got a restrained personality but he's able to talk, he goes on Fox and he's liked on Fox. He's a very, very, he's a great asset as a communicator.

    9. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. RB

      Um, and he has everything I think, um, as a communicator and he could develop in this direction, uh, if given the space.

    11. KS

      What about worries you the most about a Trump second term?

    12. RB

      Um, I, uh, what worries me the most about a Trump second term is that he has been v- very clear about his intent to, um, have a- an American version of fascism. Um, now that's, again, that's not gonna be a one-party state, but he wants to, uh, turn the US, you know, uh, arm, the military if he could, but certainly, um, law enforcement to repress, uh, large numbers of Americans, to deport, you know, millions. And he would, uh, stop at nothing to try and gain total control, uh, of the United States and that's what authoritarianism is. At- at its very essence it's the, it's the executive trying to, um, you know, overwhelm and, the other branches of government so that they can be safe and be, uh, never prosecuted again.

    13. KS

      Can he actually do it? We're such a big and diverse country with so many, like, you can't imagine California going along, there's elements in every state like this, but how do you manage to do that? I mean, Germany was a very particular, smaller com- country, so is Italy, so is Turkey in a way, you know, the, although it's much more diverse, Turkey's more diverse with Erdoğan. Um, how do you, uh, and certainly Modi has- has- has done that but has limits, has had limits in terms of what he can do. So how do you look at that? Is that, is- is that a possibility? I mean, we've all seen-

    14. RB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. KS

      ... the science fiction about it, we've all seen those apocalyptic movies where that happens. Um...

    16. RB

      Yeah. I mean,

  4. 13:40 – 19:13

    Project 2025

    1. RB

      to, Hitler, you know, Hit- Mussolini is actually a better example, um, or somebody like an Orbán because to, th- versus Hitler because today things often ha- happen gradually. Um, you, but Trump has, you know, and Project 2025 is about, you know, having an accelerated transformation of government using executive orders, perhaps the Insurrection Act, and, you know, we know there are many things that he can do. The main thing that definitely would happen because it happened during the first Trump administration is, so, uh, that, Trump is not interested in governance. He's interested in using, uh, public office for private benefit. And, you know, in his first, uh, administration, he spent one out of every three days not governing at the White House but visiting Trump-branded properties. And so this kind of enrichment, uh, uh, of you, for you and your family and cronies, that definitely would go on. He's already said, you know, he's boasting that he accepted, uh, money during his first presidency from the Chinese for, quote, "services." And I'm still trying to g- get somebody to ask him what those services were. So the White House would be for sale, uh, our intelligence would be for sale, perhaps it already has been. You know, keeping documents in his bathroom. All of this, uh, lack of, um, accountability and erasure of public versus private, that's the strongman thing. They don't, they don't accept any erasure, any divide between public and private. It's all theirs, and it's all theirs to sell and profit from.

    2. SG

      Um, Professor, my sense is the- the media has a difficult time trying to figure out the approach to covering Trump. Do you- do you have any thoughts around where the media has- has, uh, succeeded or not succeeded in- in the- the role the media plays in t- am I, trying to figure out how to cover this guy?

    3. KS

      Great question.

    4. RB

      Yeah.

    5. KS

      Yeah.

    6. RB

      Yeah.

    7. KS

      It's a little like Frederick Berchelt for, in the H- in, New York Times reporter who sort of normalized Hitler for a long time.

    8. RB

      Oh, yeah. And- and Mussol- Mussolini actually had a column, syndicated column because, uh, the anti-communist, uh, Barron Hearst was his backer, that reached, uh, a thousand newspapers for eight years in the United States. So talk about normalizing. I think, you know, uh, we know the tr- the- the press has been, uh, it was working with an outdated playbook (laughs) , uh, a- a playbook that worked, uh, in t- in terms of two, um, if you had two candidates and two parties that were, uh, that still bought into democracy. The problem is it's, they've been slow to understand how to cover our situation where we're a bipartisan republic but one of our parties no longer is in democracy. I see the GOP as an autocratic party. And if it were a- a sovereign, uh, entity, its foreign policy would be pro-autocratic, pro-Putin, pro-Orbán. It, that's a reality, and they've struggled, so that's where they- they- they still do the both sides-ism. Um, but it's a little more subtle because, for example, Meet the Press, um, which- which has a bipartisan, uh, viewership, um, Kristen Welker has done very well actually bringing Republican guests on and probing them. And the audience there are Republicans who don't want to see perhaps a Republican, um, aggressively bashed but will listen to a careful probing of their hypocrisies, of their inconsistencies. So- so there, it's just, uh, y- you can s- you can think that, uh, this more gentle approach is perhaps not appropriate for an emergency d- but it depends what your aim is.

    9. KS

      Mm-hmm. So, good or, what- what should they be doing?

    10. RB

      I- I think that-

    11. KS

      Just constant probing?

    12. RB

      ... I think that, uh, the headline writers are, there, a lot of pe- you know, there's a lot of headlines that are unhelpful, for example, even in the Washington Post and certainly in the New York Times. Uh, also the placement of important stories about Trump's corruption, uh, often the New York Times will put it on page, you know, A13.

    13. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. RB

      I think that if we want to prioritize our dem- saving our democracy we have to have a different kind of placement of, uh, these big stories. Um, also to show the American public that people are being held accountable when January 6th, uh, you know, insurgents are sentenced, uh, when the DOJ is doing things to restore faith in institutions, because bashing the press is a popular habit but it's a symptom also-

    15. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    16. RB

      ... of this, um, success of the right, of, uh, making people lose faith in all institutions.

    17. KS

      Right, absolutely. Um, they, uh, y- I think one of the issues is Trump and his cronies, especially Steve Bannon, flood the zone with crazy all the time.

    18. RB

      Yeah. Yeah.

    19. KS

      And so you get exhausted.

    20. RB

      Yeah.

    21. KS

      Including January 6th, and so you're like, "Ugh, I'm tired of listening to it," kind of thing. Anyway, it's a really important book. There's a lot of really important books out these days in this area. Uh, Ruth Ben-Ghiat, uh, her Substack is called Lucid and her book is Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present. Light, little light reading for you.

    22. RB

      (laughs)

    23. KS

      Ruth, thank you so much.

    24. RB

      Thank you. I enjoyed the conversation.

Episode duration: 19:13

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