What is a Supercommunicator? (And Why Do We Want to Be One?) | Pivot

1. 0:00 – 0:46

   Defining a “supercommunicator” through a marriage misfire

   1. KSKara Swisher0:00

      Charles Duhigg is a writer at The New Yorker and author of the new book, Super Communicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. Welcome, Charles. First of all, explain to us, what exactly is a super communicator? You write in this book, actually, came about when you realized you weren't communicating well in your marriage.

   2. CDCharles Duhigg0:16

      So, I had this problem where I'd come home from work and I would complain to my wife about my day, and she would give me this really good advice like, you know, "Take your boss out to lunch, get to know him better." And instead of being able to hear her, I would s- you know, get upset and say, "Why aren't you supporting me? You're supposed to be on my side." And then she would get upset because I was attacking her for giving me good advice. And, and I wanted to understand what was going on. And so I went out to researchers and I asked them, you know, "Why am I miscommunicating? I'm a professional communicator." And what they said is, "Well, look, we're living through a golden age of understanding communication, and one of the things that we know now

2. 0:46 – 1:33

   The three conversation types—and why people talk past each other

   1. CDCharles Duhigg0:46

      is that we think of a discussion as being about one thing, but it's actually many different kinds of conversations." And in general, they fall, tend to fall into one of three buckets. There's practical conversations, where we're solving problems, we're making plans together. But then there's emotional conversations, where I tell you what I'm feeling, and I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize. And then finally, there are social conversations about how we relate to each other. And if you're not having the r- same kind of conversation at the same moment, that's when you miscommunicate. I was having an emotional conversation, my wife was having a practical conversation, and so we couldn't really hear each other.

   2. KSKara Swisher1:17

      I know that, I know that. I'm often in practical c- I'm always like, "What's the solution?" I don't really care-

   3. CDCharles Duhigg1:22

      Yeah.

   4. KSKara Swisher1:22

      ... about the feeling as much as the solution, which is interesting. So, what, h- what do you see is the main reason, I mean, I, of course, it's hard to, like, say one reason that people struggle to communicate effectively, but talk about a few of them.

3. 1:33 – 1:51

   Layoffs over Zoom: a real-world example of mode mismatch

   1. CDCharles Duhigg1:33

      It, it's usually because, for a couple of reasons. First of all, that we don't, we're not having the same kind of conversation. Remember that, that wave of, like, tech CEOs doing layoffs over Zoom?

   2. KSKara Swisher1:43

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   3. CDCharles Duhigg1:44

      So, obviously when you're laying someone off, that's an emotional conversation.

   4. KSKara Swisher1:48

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CDCharles Duhigg1:48

      And yet, they were treating it as a practical conversation.

   6. KSKara Swisher1:51

      Mm-hmm.

4. 1:51 – 2:21

   The question advantage: how supercommunicators unlock depth quickly

   1. CDCharles Duhigg1:51

      "This is why we're laying you off, here's the benefits you're gonna get, this is what's best for the company." Somebody hearing that they're being, that they're losing their job, they don't wanna hear about the practicalities. They wanna hear someone who empathizes with them. And so, having the same kind of conversation at the same moment is critical. Another thing that's really important is asking more questions. Super communicators ask t- 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person. And as reporters, we know this, right? The power of questions, and, and particularly asking deep questions, questions that ask me about my values or my beliefs or

5. 2:21 – 3:01

   Proving you’re listening: looping, follow-ups, and reciprocal attention

   1. CDCharles Duhigg2:21

      my experiences. Like, if you meet someone who's a doctor, instead of saying, "Where do you practice medicine," saying, "Oh, what made you decide to go to medical school?" That's an invitation for them to say something real. And then finally, the thing that super communicators do is they prove that they're listening. They ask follow-up questions that show they're paying attention. They might do this thing called looping for understanding, where they repeat back what they heard you say. And when we feel listened to, that's when we become more likely to listen in return.

   2. KSKara Swisher2:47

      Oh, that's an interesting technique. So that's, so, what you've just said to me is... No, um, no, um, uh-

   3. CDCharles Duhigg2:53

      (laughs) You're very good at it.

   4. KSKara Swisher2:54

      Uh, yeah, no, I'm not.

   5. SGScott Galloway2:55

      Do you want me to explain it to you, Carol?

   6. KSKara Swisher2:56

      Yeah, yeah. Let's, please. Let's-

   7. CDCharles Duhigg2:57

      (laughs)

   8. SGScott Galloway2:57

      Sorry.

   9. KSKara Swisher2:57

      Um, Scott, go for it, Mr. Communications.

6. 3:01 – 4:38

   The power of silence as a signal of respect and processing

   1. SGScott Galloway3:01

      Uh, my, my, it's, you, you've sort of outlined, my dad said, you know, m- my dad said this to me when he, uh, I was much younger, and I didn't register how important it was or how many subtleties to it, and it sounds like it's a lot of what your themes. He always used to say, "Communication is with the listener." Can you talk about, uh, something I didn't figure out till I was much older is the power of silence. Just looking someone in the eye and make sure that you know that, that you are not waiting to speak, that you're, you're listening to them. Can you talk about the power of silence and sort of acknowledging the point, if you will?

   2. CDCharles Duhigg3:38

      Absolutely. Absolutely. Creating those spaces for silence is critical. And, and what's interesting is that speaking is such a cognitively intense activity that oftentimes, we don't really pay attention to how people are acting when we're speaking. Right? And so the way that we create that silence or we create that proof of listening is when they stop talking, what we do. For instance, think about how powerful it is if, if you just said something profound and someone says, "Wow, that gives me a lot of, a lot to think about. Let me take a second just to think about what you just said." In that moment, what you're really doing is you're saying, "I am listening to you. I promise I'm listening to you." And then if you ask a follow-up question, or if you say, "He- here's what I hear you saying, and tell me if I'm getting this wrong," what we're doing is we're proving that we're listening, 'cause you're exactly right. Many people, p- particularly in a hard conversation, a conflict conversation, we suspect in the back of our head, "This person isn't listening. They're waiting their turn to speak." And we have to prove that that's not what's happening. And when we do, it transforms a conversation.

7. 4:38 – 6:45

   Texts, tone, and tech: choosing the right medium for the moment

   1. KSKara Swisher4:38

      So, so, w- one other thing you just talked about, referenced zoom communication. A lot of s- communication happens on text or video or social media, which is a very different level of commu- which is not about listening in any way. Some of the time it is, uh, but usually it isn't. Um, how does technology play into what we're writing about? Because often, when Scott and I get into beefs, it's over a text. You know what I mean? Like, I'm thinking, um, which he takes the wrong way.

   2. SGScott Galloway5:03

      No, one of us gets-

   3. KSKara Swisher5:04

      No.

   4. SGScott Galloway5:04

      ... into a beef.

   5. CDCharles Duhigg5:04

      (laughs)

   6. SGScott Galloway5:04

      The other just sits there and goes, "What the fuck is she texting me for at 3:00 AM?"

   7. KSKara Swisher5:08

      No. But then when we talk-

   8. SGScott Galloway5:09

      I don't respond, Charles.

   9. KSKara Swisher5:10

      When we talk-

   10. SGScott Galloway5:11

       I listen. I'm the winner, I'm the super communicator here.

   11. KSKara Swisher5:14

       No, he's not. No, no.

   12. CDCharles Duhigg5:14

       (laughs)

   13. SGScott Galloway5:14

       I just listen.

   14. KSKara Swisher5:15

       In any case, uh, we always solve it when we talk together, always.

   15. CDCharles Duhigg5:20

       Yeah.

   16. KSKara Swisher5:20

       Even over the phone, even over a phone, which is typical.

   17. CDCharles Duhigg5:22

       It makes a huge difference, right? It-

   18. KSKara Swisher5:24

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CDCharles Duhigg5:24

       I- in the book, there's a story about a CIA officer who, who's, he's a terrible CIA officer.

   20. SGScott Galloway5:29

       Hm.

   21. CDCharles Duhigg5:29

       He's sent over to Europe to try and recruit spies and he's terrible at his job.

   22. SGScott Galloway5:32

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CDCharles Duhigg5:32

       And he learns this lesson, which is, different types of communication have different rules and different strengths and weaknesses. And what's interesting is, if you look at 100 years ago when phones became popular, there were all these articles that said no one will ever have a real conversation on a telephone, 'cause you can't see each other face-to-face. And at the time, they were right. If you look at early transcripts, it's people using ph- phones like telegraphs. They're sending stock orders and grocery lists to each other. But of course, by the time we're in middle school and our kids are, we can have phone conversations that are s-... some of the deepest conversations of our life, and it's because we learned how to use phones. And, and when you're talking on the phone, you tend to, without realizing it, overemphasize your words a little bit more. You put more emotion into your voice because you know the person can't see your expressions. And when it comes to digital communications, the same thing is true. There are certain rules. If I say something sarcastic to you, you can hear the sarcasm in my voice. If I type something sarcastic, you're gonna take it seriously and you're gonna be pissed off. And so, we just have to remind ourselves of what those rules are, that there's some conversations that have to be telephone, have to be face-to-face. And if we do them online, then we have to overemphasize politeness, we have to overemphasize emotion. We have to under-emphasize sarcasm.

8. 6:45 – 8:46

   Storytelling and “neural entrainment”: why good stories bond people

   1. SGScott Galloway6:45

      What you, uh, uh, who are your... So first off, I think storytelling, um, someone asked me, "What is the core competence you would want to give to your kids?" We've been thinking a lot about high school curriculums. And hands down, and, and I am going to buy your book and give it to my two sons. I think the competence that will stand the test of time is storytelling.

   2. CDCharles Duhigg7:05

      Yeah.

   3. SGScott Galloway7:05

      You're, you're on a podcast with two people who've made their livings storytelling. What, i- if, if you buy into that and you have sons or daughters and you want them to become great storytellers, what, what exercises or what hacks would you recommend for, for acquiring that skill?

   4. CDCharles Duhigg7:21

      Yeah. It's a great question, and the first thing to understand is what happens when we communicate. So, when we're in a conversation, the reason it's powerful... And, and communication is homo sapiens' superpower, right? It is the thing that has set us apart from every other species. When we're talking to each other, our bodies start to match each other, right? During this conversation, without us realizing it, our breath patterns are matching each other. Our heart rates are starting to align. And most importantly, the neural activity that, the brain activity that both of us ha- all of us have are starting to mirror each other. And within that neurology, that's known as neural entrainment. And when you think about it, it makes sense because if I describe an emotion to you, if I, if I describe an idea, you actually experience that idea or that emotion a little bit. That's what makes it powerful, and that's our brains aligning. So, when it comes to storytelling, the thing to keep in mind is, my goal is not necessarily to tell you the most polished story on Earth. My goal is to take you on a journey with me, right? Many people who, when they tell stories, they focus on the beginning and the end, but it's the middle, the journey through the middle, that makes it a story. If you think about the movie Cinderella, the beginning is the parents... her father dies. That's two minutes. The ending, as she lives happily ever after, that's like 45 seconds. The rest of the movie is the middle. And when we bring people on that journey, we invite them to align with us, to en- to entrain neurologically, and that's incredibly powerful.

9. 8:46 – 10:37

   Attention collapse, social media habits, and redefining the goal of conversation

   1. KSKara Swisher8:46

      But when people have less of a- attention, obviously people have less attention now, and especially when they're distracted by a phone or whatever it happens to be, but distraction is certainly... You know, we're in a... P- p- persistent partial attention is where we all live now. Does that affect that? Because it's very hard to have. I've had many fewer longer con- conversations than I used to. I'm starting to talk like I'm starting to text, you know what I mean?

   2. CDCharles Duhigg9:09

      Yeah.

   3. KSKara Swisher9:09

      Like, you have... They're usually more logistical and that kind of thing. What happens in, in, in that space, and can people get... Like you said, if you can adapt to phones, you can adapt to social media too-

   4. CDCharles Duhigg9:22

      Absolutely.

   5. KSKara Swisher9:22

      ... how to communicate well, right?

   6. CDCharles Duhigg9:23

      Absolutely. Well, a- a- and time is less important than con- than authenticity. So, if I tell you that like, you know, "I had this incident with my wife and we couldn't hear each other, and I went to these researchers and I talked to them," that takes me 40 seconds to explain, but it's a little bit of a story. You get to come with me.

   7. KSKara Swisher9:43

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CDCharles Duhigg9:43

      You get to envision-

   9. KSKara Swisher9:44

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CDCharles Duhigg9:44

       ... me and my wife not getting along, 'cause that's probably something that happens with you guys and your wives, right?

   11. KSKara Swisher9:48

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SGScott Galloway9:48

       Never.

   13. CDCharles Duhigg9:49

       And so... Never, never. And so, what, I think what hap- what happens is that, particularly when we're on social media, if we use social media as a way to simply broadcast, to scream-

   14. KSKara Swisher10:00

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CDCharles Duhigg10:01

       ... rather than to interact, we'll fall into that pattern throughout our life because it becomes a habit.

   16. KSKara Swisher10:07

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CDCharles Duhigg10:07

       And so, the thing to do is to remind ourselves that the goal of a conversation is not to convince the other person that you are right and they are wrong. It's not to-

   18. KSKara Swisher10:15

       What?

   19. CDCharles Duhigg10:15

       ... impress them. It's not, it's not for them to like you. The goal of a conversation is simply to understand how they see the world and speak in a way that they understand how you see the world.

   20. KSKara Swisher10:24

       Uh-huh.

   21. CDCharles Duhigg10:24

       And when you hold yourself to that standard, "I'm not gonna continue or discontinue this conversation until I can show, try and understand what you're saying and help you understand me," it makes everything healthier.

10. 10:37 – 11:25

    Politics as performance: how candidates ‘prove’ they’re listening at rallies

    1. KSKara Swisher10:37

       Can I do a follow-up? We're obviously in election year. It seems like candidates are not that, doing that. It's a dunk, dunk, dunk. No one ever listens, you know? Even more so than anybody else of, of all, of all, all public-facing of people, they're the worst, I think. Is there anyone who's a super communicator that you see on the campaign trail?

    2. CDCharles Duhigg10:56

       Well, what's really interesting is, if you go to rallies, and, and this is true of both Trump and Biden-

    3. KSKara Swisher11:00

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CDCharles Duhigg11:01

       ... and you pay attention to when they get off-script-

    5. KSKara Swisher11:03

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CDCharles Duhigg11:03

       ... what they're doing is they're proving that they listen, right?

    7. KSKara Swisher11:06

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CDCharles Duhigg11:07

       Trump, Trump, you know, setting aside what he's saying and the craziness coming out of his mouth, when hi- that audience applauds, he leans into the applause. He leans into whatever he's saying. That's why he starts saying all these crazy things. He's proving to them that he's listening to them, and Biden's doing the same thing in his rallies, and he's-

    9. KSKara Swisher11:23

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CDCharles Duhigg11:23

        ... trying to do it right now with his public statements.

    11. KSKara Swisher11:25

        Mm-hmm.

11. 11:25 – 12:08

    Why we’re worse at communicating—and why it can be retrained quickly

    1. CDCharles Duhigg11:25

       You're exactly right. One of the reasons I wrote this book is because we have forgotten how to communicate, right?

    2. KSKara Swisher11:31

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CDCharles Duhigg11:31

       This used to be taught in schools. Your, your parents took a course called Home Ec or Interpersonal Relations, and as schools got more technical, it fell out of the curriculums. But this is important, and our brain is designed to be amazing at communication. If we teach it the right skills, it makes it into a habit very quickly. And so, Super Communicators is about that handful of skills that we know-

    4. KSKara Swisher11:53

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CDCharles Duhigg11:53

       ... helps you connect with other people.

    6. KSKara Swisher11:55

       Yeah, it's interesting. I do think you learn to communicate without talking. I, I, something I've learned from having smaller children is we talk a lot, but not speaking, right? You know what I mean? There's a lot of non-communication communication happening.

    7. CDCharles Duhigg12:06

       Absolutely.

    8. KSKara Swisher12:06

       Scott, final question.

12. 12:08 – 13:43

    Parenting with deep questions: getting teenagers to actually talk

    1. SGScott Galloway12:08

       Yeah, I just, Charles, I, I know very little b- about you. Do you have kids?

    2. CDCharles Duhigg12:12

       I do. I have a, uh, 12-year-old and a 15-year-old.

    3. SGScott Galloway12:15

       Oh, (laughs) you're, you're, uh, (laughs) you're in the midst of it. You're in your second-

    4. CDCharles Duhigg12:18

       Yeah.

    5. SGScott Galloway12:18

       ... tour of Iraq and Vietnam right now.

    6. CDCharles Duhigg12:19

       Yes. (laughs)

    7. SGScott Galloway12:19

       Anyways, so-

    8. CDCharles Duhigg12:20

       That's exactly right. (laughs)

    9. SGScott Galloway12:21

       ... what, uh ... How has your study of s- being a super communicator and the, the best and worst practices changed the way you interact with your children?

    10. CDCharles Duhigg12:30

        It's actually transformed it. The, the first thing is that I mentioned that deep questions, and what it, that really is, is it's about asking not about the facts of someone's life, but how they feel about their life. And I used to ask my kids like, "How was your day?" "Fine." "Did you learn anything at school?" "No." "Did you have fun?" "No." Right? You guys had this, like, it's, it's like pulling teeth to have a conversation with them. And then I started asking, instead of about the facts of their day, I started asking, saying things like, "Hey, I know that you hung out with Jasper after school," like, "What do you admire about Jasper? Why do you like him?" And suddenly-

    11. SGScott Galloway12:59

        (smacks lips)

    12. CDCharles Duhigg12:59

        ... it's like opening this book. You know, my kid is like, "Oh, he's very courageous." "What does courage mean?" "Well, he rode his bike off the roof." (laughs)

    13. SGScott Galloway13:06

        (laughs)

    14. CDCharles Duhigg13:06

        I'm like, "Oh, is that courage, or what else has he done?" "Oh, it turns out Jasper can talk to girls." And I prove that I'm listening to them. I ask them these deep questions about how they feel about their life 'cause they're experts in that. And then I repeat back to them, I say, "Oh, that's interesting. What do you mean by courage?" I prove to them that I'm paying attention, that I want to learn from them.

    15. KSKara Swisher13:26

        Mm-hmm.

    16. CDCharles Duhigg13:27

        And that's opened-

    17. KSKara Swisher13:27

        And they're not annoyed by that?

    18. CDCharles Duhigg13:28

        Yeah.

    19. KSKara Swisher13:28

        They're not annoyed.

    20. CDCharles Duhigg13:29

        No, they love it.

    21. KSKara Swisher13:31

        Yeah, interesting.

    22. CDCharles Duhigg13:31

        They love it, right? I mean, you, you have older kids, Kara.

    23. KSKara Swisher13:33

        Yeah.

    24. CDCharles Duhigg13:33

        You know, like, when they're teenagers, they, they're, they're just bursting at the seams to be experts on things-

    25. KSKara Swisher13:39

        Sure are, yeah.

    26. CDCharles Duhigg13:39

        ... and to share their expertise with you. And the th- the thing they're an expert on is their own life.

13. 13:43 – 15:22

    Closing: are Kara and Scott supercommunicators, and one tip to try today

    1. KSKara Swisher13:43

       Yeah, that is fair tr- that's true. So, uh, give us a little review here. Are Scott and I super communicators?

    2. CDCharles Duhigg13:49

       You guys are super communicators par extraordinare. I mean, the thing is, I've been listening to some of the podcasts-

    3. KSKara Swisher13:53

       Yeah.

    4. CDCharles Duhigg13:53

       ... that you've been doing, Kara, about, um, for your book.

    5. KSKara Swisher13:55

       Yeah.

    6. CDCharles Duhigg13:55

       And, and the thing I love about it is that you go in and you have something to say.

    7. KSKara Swisher14:00

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CDCharles Duhigg14:01

       Right? You ha- you, you're coming in not just waiting for a question. You're coming in with something you want to share.

    9. KSKara Swisher14:06

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CDCharles Duhigg14:06

        But at the same time, you're also listening to that host. You're interacting-

    11. KSKara Swisher14:10

        Mm-hmm.

    12. CDCharles Duhigg14:11

        ... with them. And you guys might not walk away completely agreeing with each other.

    13. KSKara Swisher14:15

        Mm-hmm.

    14. CDCharles Duhigg14:15

        But you walk away understanding and connecting with each other.

    15. KSKara Swisher14:18

        Yeah. Yeah.

    16. CDCharles Duhigg14:18

        So you guys, you guys are definitely super communicators.

    17. KSKara Swisher14:20

        And give us one-

    18. SGScott Galloway14:20

        Is that right?

    19. KSKara Swisher14:20

        Gi- give everybody one quick tip before we go. What's the one thing you have to do?

    20. CDCharles Duhigg14:25

        Yeah. The one thing you have to do is today ask a question that you wouldn't have asked otherwise, and make it a question that feels to you like it's personal. Like, you know-

    21. KSKara Swisher14:35

        Scott does that well.

    22. CDCharles Duhigg14:37

        W- w- y- yeah. W- yeah. "Why did, why did you decide to become a journalist?"

    23. KSKara Swisher14:39

        Mm-hmm.

    24. CDCharles Duhigg14:40

        Like, "What was it like growing up wherever you grew up?"

    25. KSKara Swisher14:42

        Mm-hmm.

    26. CDCharles Duhigg14:42

        "What do you love about your neighborhood?"

    27. KSKara Swisher14:44

        Mm-hmm.

    28. CDCharles Duhigg14:44

        Those questions are g- an invitation to someone else-

    29. KSKara Swisher14:47

        Yep.

    30. CDCharles Duhigg14:47

        ... to tell you who they really are.

Episode duration: 15:22