What Is Going On with Trump's Trade War? | Pivot

Scott Galloway 0:00 ... and I also occasionally, if I have both a gummy and, um, a couple of Maker's in ginger-

Kara Swisher 0:07 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 0:07 ... I put in my AirPods and I dance to '80s music-

Kara Swisher 0:10 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 0:10 ... without my, without my shirt on.

Kara Swisher 0:18 (instrumental music) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and I am in San Francisco, and was on a flight last night, uh, having to read about Doge working all weekend taking over the government.

Scott Galloway 0:34 Good to see you, Kara. Uh, wh-

Kara Swisher 0:36 (laughs) I'm so tired.

Scott Galloway 0:37 Are you? Why are you back in San Francisco?

Kara Swisher 0:39 Oh, I have a bunch of things to do here. I'm speaking in front of a group from Columbia, uh, University Journalism school. Um-

Scott Galloway 0:46 Uh-huh.

Kara Swisher 0:46 ... I've got some appointments. I've got, uh, a whole bunch of stuff that I'm doing here in San Francisco. I like to come and visit the place f- every now and then to find out what's going on.

Scott Galloway 0:54 You love it there.

Kara Swisher 0:55 I do. I do. I don't have a lot of time here this time, but I am, uh, I'm excited to be here. Anyway, it was a long weekend. Listen, uh, this whole Doge thing has got me off to a bad start. Um-

Scott Galloway 1:08 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:08 ... but, uh, but I am glad I'm in San Francisco, that's for sure. How are you doing?

Scott Galloway 1:12 Well, I'm good. I'm about to get on a plane for Orlando.

Kara Swisher 1:16 Oh, nice.

Scott Galloway 1:18 (sighs) Yeah. Um, I have a speaking gig at Walt Disney World.

Kara Swisher 1:22 What?

Scott Galloway 1:23 Uh, yeah. Uh, don't ask. I don't know. I don't know. I just go where they send me.

Kara Swisher 1:27 Why?

Scott Galloway 1:27 Yeah. I'm s-

Kara Swisher 1:27 Which place?

Scott Galloway 1:29 What's that?

Kara Swisher 1:29 Why? Who is at Walt Disney World?

Scott Galloway 1:32 Uh, they do a lot of conventions there, I guess.

Kara Swisher 1:34 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 1:35 I don't know. Uh, uh, foreigners? I don't know. I... Foreign...

Kara Swisher 1:39 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 1:39 I don't know what's going on there, I just know I'm going. And, uh, and then I, I spend a day there and then I go to New York for three or four days, and then home.

Kara Swisher 1:46 Oh, how nice. Yeah. It's, February's gonna be a big month. It's gonna be a big month, and it has been in Washington, as I said, but it's just, it seems very active. It used to be a lot slower in the winter. Now it seems crazy. Maybe it's just I'm tired from s- flying all night and then being here.

Scott Galloway 2:02 Yeah. I don't know. I don't... You spend... It's interesting, as close as we are-

Kara Swisher 2:07 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 2:08 ... professionally and personally-

Kara Swisher 2:09 Very so.

Scott Galloway 2:10 ... uh, we are never in the same place.

Kara Swisher 2:12 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 2:12 You spend most of your time in DC and San Francisco-

Kara Swisher 2:15 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 2:15 ... and I am never in DC or San Francisco.

Kara Swisher 2:17 Well, that's why we're so close, you see.

Scott Galloway 2:19 Yeah, but... I- It's funny you say that. So just to bring this back to me-

Kara Swisher 2:23 All right.

Scott Galloway 2:23 ... I have a really nice relationship with my-

Kara Swisher 2:26 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 2:26 ... sister. She's my dad's daughter by his third marriage.

Kara Swisher 2:30 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 2:30 I am the son by his second marriage.

Kara Swisher 2:32 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 2:33 And I'm convinced one of the reasons that we're so close now is that we didn't live in the same household.

Kara Swisher 2:37 Oh.

Scott Galloway 2:38 I've always been shocked by how many siblings are not that close-

Kara Swisher 2:41 Huh.

Scott Galloway 2:41 ... even though they're both really good people, and I'm convinced it's because something traumatic happens that creates a fissure when they're living together as children.

Kara Swisher 2:48 Really?

Scott Galloway 2:49 And when you're a sibling, you feel that familial bond, but the fact that you never lived together... I don't know. She looks like a different species. She's attractive. She's, she's blond. She looks, she kinda looks, I always joke she looks like Aryan youth. She has big, beautiful blue eyes and platinum blond hair.

Kara Swisher 3:03 Okay. All right. That's an interesting match-

Scott Galloway 3:05 Yeah. We don't look... We'd look like we're different...

Kara Swisher 3:07 (laughs) Okay.

Scott Galloway 3:07 Yeah, she likes that.

Kara Swisher 3:08 Oh, all right.

Scott Galloway 3:09 She likes that.

Kara Swisher 3:09 Yeah. I'm sure.

Scott Galloway 3:10 Uh, but we look like, we look like a different species.

Kara Swisher 3:12 Yeah. We have a lot to get to today. Um, may I start off by saying something? Someone who is a big listener of ours, uh, wrote me, and, uh, suffered, uh... Someone they were- they knew died in that plane crash and said we were a little too glib about the plane crash getting- making it political. Um, and I thought about it, and I really do, uh, think w- we were trying hard to separate it from the politics. And there's no getting around it, this is a terrible

Kara Swisher 3:39 tragedy, um, of people dying, and I get it. Um, for a lot of people it's been turned into a political thing, and maybe we did a little bit more than we should have, because we said we weren't going to. Um, so I wanted to bring that up. I don't know how you feel about that, but I, I wanted to, uh, say, uh, these families were finally, um, they're finally finding everybody there. Uh, it's still, they still have not found everybody, uh, in the Potomac. But reading these stories this week, um, of, of, of these families were- was, uh, really heartbreaking, I found it. I found it very heartbreaking.

Scott Galloway 4:14 Yeah, it's im- Uh, look, it's, uh, uh, it's impossible not... That's an impossible, I don't want to call it accusation, but it's an impossible comment-

Kara Swisher 4:22 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 4:22 ... to not land.

Kara Swisher 4:23 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 4:23 Because if you knew somebody on one of those flights, you're devastated, right? They're-

Kara Swisher 4:28 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 4:29 ... losing a loved one unexpected- unexpectedly, and in such a harsh-

Kara Swisher 4:33 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 4:33 ... spectacle is... You know, it- you're n- I can't imagine any of those people, including their families, are ever gonna be the same again.

Kara Swisher 4:40 No.

Scott Galloway 4:41 You know, my, my view is, uh, taking a step back, I mean, it was sort of like when the wildfires came.

Kara Swisher 4:48 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 4:48 The- I think- or at least the point I was trying to make, I won't put words in your mouth, is that rather than, I would argue, empathy for the people on, uh, you know, who lost their homes or the people who lost their lives-

Kara Swisher 4:59 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 5:00 ... the left says it's climate change, the right says it's DEI. In this instance, the right mostly. The left was mostly, uh, quiet. The right was, "This is DEI." And it's just a shame that a lot of that empathy gets, i- it gets some bullshit nods from people-

Kara Swisher 5:17 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:17 ... thoughts and prayers-

Kara Swisher 5:18 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 5:19 ... and they immediately go to, "How can I politicize this?"

Kara Swisher 5:21 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:21 And our point was, or n- not your- our point. My point is the following. The FAA is arguably one of the most successful government agencies in history. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 5:30 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 5:31 And as someone who's invested in aviation, the error rate you have to test to-

Kara Swisher 5:38 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 5:39 ... is ten to the negative eighth with- to get a, a, a, a civil aviation aircraft certified to fly passengers. I mean, in the ability- at any moment there's something like 7,000 planes in the air-

Kara Swisher 5:54 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 5:54 ... in our airspace. And the fact that they're able to minimize or keep the number of these horrific tragedies, it is more dangerous to walk up your stairs-

Kara Swisher 6:03 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:03 ... to get on a plane.

Kara Swisher 6:04 No, I get that. I get it.

Scott Galloway 6:05 And so the, uh, and just let me finish here-I am not a fan of DEI. I've said-

Kara Swisher 6:11 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 6:11 ... in the university setting, I think that apparatus should be disassembled. I think in the corporate setting, there is absolutely still a role for DEI, and people don't realize that DEI, you know, the removal of DEI will impact veterans' ability to ge- to get jobs. But in the instance of if you were to say that the DEI has infected the FAA, then all you could say is, "Based on the performance of the FAA, then the DE- then DEI should be incorporated into every organization." 'Cause whatever the FAA has been doing (laughs) the last 30 or 40 years has resulted in outstanding, um, metrics. But I- I just wanna circle back. I- I feel s- whoever wrote that-

Kara Swisher 6:50 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 6:50 ... I- I trust and hope that-

Kara Swisher 6:52 It's a big fan of ours, yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:52 ... I would, yeah, I- I apologize sincerely if in any way our comments came across as coarse. That was not our intention.

Kara Swisher 7:01 Yeah, not at all. Uh, let me just say, uh, I- I would avail myself, some- one- sometimes you can complain about media, but these stories about these people, and I read a bunch of them, are wonderful.

Scott Galloway 7:12 They're heartbreaking.

Kara Swisher 7:12 Especially this-

Scott Galloway 7:13 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 7:13 ... y- you know, this group of skaters and friends. And, um, it's, uh, you know, I- I know plane crashes do get more attention than, uh, other things, and- and as you say, not as many people die, but they're s- Yeah. ... it's such a sort of horrific, uh, way to die, and the way it becomes spectacle is also horrific. But let's just remember there's people in those flights. That's all I wanna say. I just, uh, I went- I went out of my w- (clears throat) way to- to, um, read about their lives. Uh, and it was, uh, uh, you know, I- I- I did that, uh, after 9/11 too. I read so many of the biographies and stuff like that. And you don't do that for everybody every day of the year who dies. But, um, in that case, it- it starts... It gives you a real sense of- of mortality when those happens to everybody. And it just was... Anyway, I'm s- we're sorry. Uh, we- that was not our intent. Let's hope we figure out what happened and stop accidents like that, 'cause, uh, Scott is right. Our air travel is safe comparatively, um, going forward. Anyway, we've got a lot to get today.

Kara Swisher 8:12 Trump set off a firestorm over the weekend, slapping 25% tariffs on goods from Canada and Mexico, and 10% on China's products, set to go into effect this week. We'll see. What do you think, Scott?

Scott Galloway 8:25 Well, just on a human level, for the first time in my life, it- and this is an odd feeling, and it's- it's a mix of shame and surprise, I'm rooting for Canada, not the US.

Kara Swisher 8:35 Can I just make a quick note? The Journal had a very good story this morning that one of the reasons is he's mad about how he had to open the Berlin factory, that they have too many days off, that they take too much work, uh, from sick leave, I guess, and that he doesn't like the workers, and he was ins- i- i- infuriated with it. Again, a lot of this early stuff started with the factories, um, in- in California. He got mad of it, at COVID. It's where it began. Um, so it was very interesting, the- the links between the Berlin factory and his increased activism. But go ahead.

Scott Galloway 9:09 Well, let's- let's break them down. So, let's start with the tariffs, and let's do a strong man or steel man.

Kara Swisher 9:13 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 9:13 His argument is that, uh, countries, uh, that America's been too sta- soft, and that America should command the space it occupies-

Kara Swisher 9:21 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 9:21 ... and charge more and create a revenue source or access to what is the largest economy in the world, and that our trade agreements have been asymmetric, and that is they have, uh, we have been taken advantage of. First, my personal experience having literally done business in almost every Western nation-

Kara Swisher 9:38 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 9:38 ... and even negotiated, uh, agreements between private companies and world leaders, America flexes its power every fucking day (laughs) .

Kara Swisher 9:45 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 9:45 I mean, the notion that somehow we're always on the wrong end of deals, when you show up, uh, almost every trade agreement, we have 700 military bases in 80 countries.

Kara Swisher 9:56 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 9:56 China has one in Djibouti.

Kara Swisher 9:58 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 9:58 U- u- and you think we just ask for those? You think we just said, "Hey, wouldn't it be a great idea to have a military ba-" We flex our power every day. So first, the base notion that somehow we've been-

Kara Swisher 10:10 We've been taken advantage of.

Scott Galloway 10:11 ... getting taken advantage of (laughs) is literally comical. Now, let's talk about the tariffs themselves. You could make the argument, all right, with China, uh, the argument would be, and I'm- I'm trying to call balls and strikes here. A lot of the tariffs initially imposed in the first Trump administration were actually kept in place by Biden. This takes it to such a deeper, weirder level, because, uh, for example, with Canada, 25%, it- it, this will just immediately raise prices for both nations. They, the definition of stupid is you hurt yourself and you hurt others. In addition, (sighs) you don't think China might get a military base at Colombia at some point? You don't think Can- Canada, they- they, the Canadian Embassy in Tehran, those people risked their lives to try and covertly get American hostages out of Iran.

Kara Swisher 11:06 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:06 They risked their lives, because Canada sees themselves as friends, brothers, siblings of America. They followed us into Afghanistan. They followed us into Iraq. We have Major League Baseball-

Kara Swisher 11:21 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:21 ... National Basketball Association teams-

Kara Swisher 11:23 He's called an ally. Yeah, it's an ally.

Scott Galloway 11:24 ... in Canada.

Kara Swisher 11:25 Right.

Scott Galloway 11:25 It's more than an ally.

Kara Swisher 11:26 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:26 They are, they are with us. And Canada right now can't even answer the question, what do you want from us?

Kara Swisher 11:35 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:35 What's the end game here? Why didn't you call us, your good friend, and say, "This is our concern, and this is what we're trying to achieve"? I don't even think they know. They can't even answer the question, what is his end game here in this bullshit that, well, the, we've gotta reduce the level of fentanyl. You can sort of make that argument against China and Mexico. You can't make it against Canada.

Kara Swisher 11:56 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:56 The- the amount of fentanyl-

Kara Swisher 11:57 He wants to be the 51st state. There's that thrown in there, that Canada should-

Scott Galloway 12:00 So, okay, you've managed to raise prices, to diminish the quality of life of a friend, to diminish goodwill that has been built up over s-... 150 years, and it's just going to raise consumer prices. It's not only reckless, it is literally... The definition of stupid is doing something that hurts others and hurts yourself.

Kara Swisher 12:22 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 12:23 Especially the one against Canada. I- I- I can sort of see the argument, at least theoretically, about the drug trade and fentanyl coming through Mexico, fine. The immigrants, the 250,000 people coming over the border. Maybe China, I can sort of make an argument, I still don't think it's smart.

Kara Swisher 12:39 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 12:39 But the tariffs against Canada?

Kara Swisher 12:41 Right. All right one of the... I mean, the Mexicans, uh, Mexican president who s- who seems very, much more aggressive than previous presidents was making the point, stop wanting drugs so much, do something about your own drug problem within the country and the demand, which you never do. Uh, there has been an- an effort by the Mexican government to slow all that down, right? There has been progress made. Um, and it's still an issue, of course, it's an enormous border and drugs are attractive on both sides, the users and the- the makers of the drugs, or the people who bring them to us. Um, but again, this seems- seems like in Trump's head, and I've read economist after economist that is just like, "This is world's worst thing to happen to everybody." And it will be a tax. You know, there were a couple of, um, anchors who just doesn't seem to know math, it'll be a tax on the American consumer that they're not gonna get through tax breaks, 'cause the tax breaks are going to the very wealthy. They're not going to-

Scott Galloway 13:41 Shocker.

Kara Swisher 13:42 Uh, a- a- and this is a- a direct tax on the American consumer. It's really quite something. And the price of every... They got all this weird... I had no idea that so much stuff... And I, you know, I know that we're doing lots of trade, vaguely, but in terms of when you start to get the specifics of what we import, fresh fruits and vegetables, gas, obviously maple syrup, things like that, but, um, some of it-

Scott Galloway 14:06 Lumber, yeah.

Kara Swisher 14:06 ... you know, cars that go back and forth across the border-

Scott Galloway 14:08 100%.

Kara Swisher 14:08 ... I- I was vaguely aware of that, but it's really... We are... They aren't the 51st state, but they sure as hell aren't just another country, that is true. And I think the same is Mexico. We have so much trade with them, and there was a hope that we'd put more, uh, technology engineering there so it was closer and less at risk than in China, right? Um, he thinks it's- it's a negotiating tactic, and one of the things, um, I... Let me look it up. Mark Cuban said, which I thought was smart is that he'll- he'll make some calls and call them off right away and then declare victory essentially. You know, do a pinky promise that, I think that's what he said, um, that he was tough and then he can take his win and go home essentially. Which I... It sounded like a pretty reasonable idea of what this idiot's gonna do, essentially. Um...

Scott Galloway 14:55 If you were to game theory this out, the most likely outcome is that immediately you're gonna see a spike in prices, or near immediately. A lot of companies have been stockpiling. I was on the board of a retailer and I was speaking to the C- CEO the other day and he said, "Yeah, the tariffs in China, we knew they were coming so we've been stockpiling things and get- trying to get- get them in until this gets solved." So you're not... I actually don't think you're gonna see price increases as quickly as people think. Maybe we will, but we will see price increases. And then he will come up with some sort of... He'll declare victory and say he got something and most likely roll them back somewhat or all. That's the most likely scenario.

Kara Swisher 15:27 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:27 What we're not thinking about is that people have memories, people have egos, and we're no longer a trusted ally.

Kara Swisher 15:35 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 15:35 (laughs) We no longer can be counted on. You're gonna see the- the Canadians are gonna be more likely to import BYD electric vehicles.

Kara Swisher 15:44 Mm.

Scott Galloway 15:44 And what's interesting about this, and it gets more Machiavellian-

Kara Swisher 15:47 This is from China for people that don't know.

Scott Galloway 15:47 ... and mendacious as you look at it, it's clear Musk's fingerprints are all over this-

Kara Swisher 15:52 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 15:53 ... because if you look at Tesla, they actually have, to their credit, the greatest manufacturing depth. What do I mean by that? If you're an American car maker, sometimes certain car parts or components literally go up and down Canada and cross Mexican borders six, eight, 10 times.

Kara Swisher 16:11 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 16:11 There's tariffs gonna be everywhere on American automobile companies, except Tesla, the majority of their parts are manufactured vertically here in the S. The majority of the automobiles they sell in China, which would be subject to the reciprocal tariffs that China's going to impose on American products. The majority of Teslas sold in China are actually manufactured in China. Now... And Tesla is suing Europe for their 7.5% tariff they put on, uh, Teslas sold, manufactured in China. So actually, these tariffs-

Kara Swisher 16:44 Mm.

Scott Galloway 16:45 ... in my view were massaged and written and negotiated to a certain extent by Elon Musk.

Kara Swisher 16:52 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:53 Because what this-

Kara Swisher 16:54 Very significant.

Scott Galloway 16:54 ... amounts to in the automobile industry is it's gonna seriously impair US auto companies, but it's not gonna impair, uh, Tesla. But this is... What people don't realize, he'll- he'll try and get some sort of political win, flex his muscle, America's back. But the amount of goodwill-

Kara Swisher 17:11 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 17:11 ... that we are eroding long term.

Kara Swisher 17:14 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 17:14 This isn't how you operate a business, this isn't how you operate a country.

Kara Swisher 17:17 No, it's called distributed negotiations where one... There's a winner and a loser. Um, I- I was reading a whole thing about his negotiating style, which doesn't work on the international stage. Um, this is what the Cuban said, "He's gonna say, 'Pinky swear you will protect our border and buy more booze and stuff from us.' They will say yes, won't actually buy the stuff, and he will declare victory. Trumponomics."

Scott Galloway 17:35 That's right.

Kara Swisher 17:36 That's... I think that's kind of what-

Scott Galloway 17:37 And then... And long term, they're just not going to be as inclined to-

Kara Swisher 17:41 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 17:42 ... to coordinate... Cooperate with our Central Intel- Intelligence Agency when there's a terrorist threat cell in their country. I mean, this will just... This will just have an inc- incr-... This is an... The reason the US is the most powerful nation in the world is for a variety of reasons, our geography, our natural resources, our IP, but also the incredible amount of admiration and goodwill our allies have for us.

Kara Swisher 18:02 Mm.

Scott Galloway 18:02 And he is taking that, and he is eroding it at an unbelievable rate.

Kara Swisher 18:06 Let's listen to, uh, uh, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau essentially called Trump's actions a betrayal of our alliance, which you just said.

Narrator 18:15 ... we've built the most successful economic, military, and security partnership the world has ever seen, a relationship that has been the envy of the world. Yes, we've had our differences in the past, but we've always found a way to get past them. As I've said before, if President Trump wants to usher in a new golden age for the United States, the better path is to partner with Canada, not to punish us.

Kara Swisher 18:49 That's a very good... See, he's also gaining. He's had to leave because of pressure from conservatives too, and now they're all joined together. Um, just some more things, and, and then one more thing. Uh, Larry Summers has called the tariffs against Canada and Mexico inexplicable and dangerous. He's usually right about things. He's an economist, obviously, a well-known economist. Uh, Trump acknowledged it could cause some pain, but how bad could it get? Um, as we said, alcohol, food, cars, toys, uh, pretty much everything. Um, they'll also, uh, these tariffs will also target that de minimis provision that allows packages of less than $800 to ship to the US duty-free. That loophole has been a boon, uh, a boon for Shein, T- T- Temu, and others. I suspect he'll, he'll be a paper tiger here, correct? I mean, do you imagine? I think that he's gonna do exactly what Mark says.

Scott Galloway 19:39 Well, a, a, a senator the both of us know heard our comments that... and our disappointment in the Democratic Party around messaging and hitting back-

Kara Swisher 19:48 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 19:48 ... and called me and said, "Well, what would you do?"

Kara Swisher 19:50 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 19:50 And I'm like, "Don't play the indignance card. Don't talk about all these federal employees being laid off."

Kara Swisher 19:55 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 19:55 "Don't be outraged. Have, have five or six different items, whether it's eggs, whether it's lumber, whether it's a toy," I don't know what, you know, a car, a new Chevrolet, "and have it on the DNC website, and just every day announce what the prices are."

Kara Swisher 20:10 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 20:10 Inflation is number one on people's minds. That's what they promise to bring prices down. And I don't see any way around i- how interest rates or prices don't immediately or near immediately tick up.

Kara Swisher 20:22 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 20:22 And that's what impacts people every day. And that's what he promised to immediately bring down is, "We were gonna bring prices down, um, immediately." This is... It, it's just... It really is very, um... I just don't get... I don't get the end game here (laughs) . I don't.

Kara Swisher 20:38 Yeah. Well-

Scott Galloway 20:39 I don't understand what their, what their-

Kara Swisher 20:41 Because he was, he was pr- he was prices down and tax cuts, I think. And none of those things are on the, are on the thing. It's DEI at the FAA and tariffs and destroying the government, essentially, which seems to be taking advantage of his chaotic friend Elon Musk, or helping him somehow.

Scott Galloway 20:57 Well, in all of these stories that would have made huge news and had real scrutiny, one, there's fewer journalists to cover them-

Kara Swisher 21:02 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 21:02 ... and you flood the zone with all of this stuff. Th- by the way, these tax cuts they're talking about, just so you know, Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway are getting a tax cut.

Kara Swisher 21:10 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 21:10 Anyone else on this show that makes, uh, less than $300,000 a year is getting a tax hike.

Kara Swisher 21:15 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 21:16 So these tax cuts, again, done under the cover of flooding the zone, are going to cut taxes on people making over... The people making over $300,000-

Kara Swisher 21:25 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 21:25 ... will get a small tax cut. People making over $800,000 or a million bucks a year about to get a pretty nice tax cut. Is that what you voted for? More, more wealth (laughs) for the f- more wealth for the 1%? But no one's even talking about it because everything seems even more outrageous. You know, i- it just there's so many things here that we can't... th- the media and, I don't think, consumers can absorb it. And that was their strategy. In some ways it's sort of mendaciously brilliant. Just, oh, slip in a re- slip in a tax cut for the rich, 'cause they're gonna be focused on all this stuff over here, all our accusations of DEI and the things we're doing at the CDC. There's just so much here, and one thing feels more strange, weird, reckless, economically stupid than the next. They won't notice all this other stuff. Project 2025 is being implemented.

Kara Swisher 22:14 I could go... Let me go through the other ones that happened. Over 8,000 US government websites have been deleted, a result of Trump's order to end programs to promote gender, ideology. Information about vaccines, hate crimes, and veterans care has been removed. Among the removed, 3,000 pages from the CDC, 100 pages from the FDA, 200 pages from Head Start, a program for low income children, and 1,000 pages from the Department of Justice, a lot around January 6th. Um, obviously, USAID was the other thing that was happening. Looks like they're closing it down. They went in over the weekend and took control of the agency, which they're trying to close down. Apparently Elon said on, on, on X, on, uh, Spaces, I guess, uh, that they are closing it down. And then he also tweeted, "It should die." It was a criminal organization, making all kinds of accusations. Sounds like he has a band of teenagers, young people helping him do this. Um, troublesome. They are claiming that nobody without security clearance got access, but it sounds pretty, uh, middle of the night on the weekend, which he bragged about, saying, um, one of his advantages and superpowers is he works on the weekend. Uh, I, I work on the weekend, but I don't consider it a superpower.

Scott Galloway 23:22 Can we-

Kara Swisher 23:23 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 23:23 Can we talk about the sites

Scott Galloway 23:25 or the...

Kara Swisher 23:25 Yes, we will. Yes, let's go, let's go to the sites. Let's go to the sites.

Scott Galloway 23:29 Well, I've always maintained... (laughs) So for example, there was an HIV transmission calculator. And I've maintained that actually I don't think Trump is, uh, homophobic. I'm not even sure it's fair to say that their policies are misogynistic. What I think their policies are... I don't know what the right term is here. I do- I don't think this is a war on women. I don't think it's a war on gay, gay people. I think it's a war on poor people. And if you have... The CDC had an HIV transmission calculator.

Kara Swisher 23:58 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 23:59 And if you're a young man discovering your sexuality and you live with a single mother, you don't have a lot of money, maybe you dropped out of high school, it's important that these kids have this information about, about... I think it's called-

Kara Swisher 24:14 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 24:14 ... PrEP and PEP and what certain types of sex result in transmission of HIV. It's important that if you have an, an STD and you find out that you're pregnant-... what that means and what treatment are available. And all those sites have been taken down. Now, who does that impact? Would it impact my son? No. It impacts poor kids. It impacts poor women. And i- i- eh, this is the, it's the definition of censorship and purposely r-regressing and taking us back. It feels like it's not... I don't think it's an, uh, a war on women or LGBTQ.

Kara Swisher 24:48 Oh, come on. Stop. God.

Scott Galloway 24:49 It's a war on poor women.

Kara Swisher 24:49 I'm sorry. It is. It's a, it's a war on lots of things. The stuff they're taking down across the government is, it's not just poor people. H- they're trying to, like, abrogate, eh, eh, to eliminate other, anyone else that has... Remember, they're taking down, like, they have, um, Black History Month or Gay Pride Month.

Scott Galloway 25:06 Who does it impact?

Kara Swisher 25:07 Well, that kinda stuff, it's the same message. It's, it's, i- i- if you read Project 2025, it's not just... Of course, it, uh, uh, impacts poor people, but it also impacts the idea of any kind of identity beyond, you know-

Scott Galloway 25:19 That's fair.

Kara Swisher 25:19 ... veterans need to veteran. Um, you know-

Scott Galloway 25:22 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 25:22 ... CDC needs to CDC. Don't talk about anything else. Um, it's, it's an idea, it's an idea that has driven them crazy, which is that we should celebrate diversity, I guess. That's, you know, it's a, it's a broader obsession that they have with this issue. A- and that's how you led to sort of the FAA thing, which is, it had to be, uh, diversity, equity, inclusion that caused these crashes, even though in, we haven't had a crash in a very, very long time, w- when those things were in place. Um, uh, which probably is a tragic accident. But, you know, that's really what it is, and, and that's what happens in life. But, um, but I think it's a, it's an, it's an atta- it's a bigger i- ideological attack o- of things they're trying to eliminate in schools. Um, y- uh, let me just say, my kid's in a public school in DC. I am very nervous they're gonna start meddling with the education system. She came home and was talk... She said, "Oh, I learned the word diverse today." And I said, "What does that mean to you?" And she goes, "Oh, that we're all different." And she wasn't using race. She was like, "Oh, we're all different people from each other. And, um, it's good to be, you know, to have differences, and it's good to have things in common." It was a very, like, you know, chalk, vanilla, strawberry way of thinking about it. But I was like, "Oh, they're gonna take that out of her education, just the word," which was frightening in a lot of ways, you know? I-

Scott Galloway 26:43 I think it's a bigger issue, uh, you know, taking the word diversity out of preschool-

Kara Swisher 26:47 No, I know.

Scott Galloway 26:47 ... or whatever.

Kara Swisher 26:48 I, I think they're gonna do-

Scott Galloway 26:49 But let me finish.

Kara Swisher 26:49 ... a lot of meddling-

Scott Galloway 26:50 I, I, I-

Kara Swisher 26:50 ... in education.

Scott Galloway 26:50 ... I think in terms of actual damage on the ground, not letting... having information around vaccines, uh, for new mothers who may not have access to, you know, formal education.

Kara Swisher 27:00 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 27:01 Uh, not having access to information around STDs, not having access to information around HIV transmission, not having access to who you can content, c- contact if you think your landlord is unfairly abusing you and won't give you your deposit back. I, I generally believe America, even under Trump, that rich people continue to have more rights-

Kara Swisher 27:22 Yes.

Scott Galloway 27:22 ... at the expense of poor people. And I think that's the basic fulcrum and the injustice in our society right now. I think, I think the majority of the people wh- who are in special interest groups, as long as you have money, I think you're fine. I, I just, I, I, I... This to me is just a, a war on poor people, and they give a... It's, it's... I, I agree with you, it's ideologically driven.

Kara Swisher 27:44 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 27:45 But what they've said is, "In order to execute it, we're gonna give rich people a pass on all these things." They will still have access to medical abortions. They will still have access to lawyers to ensure they have civil rights. They will still have access to marriage if they want it.

Kara Swisher 27:58 Mm.

Scott Galloway 27:59 Eh, eh, e- they're fine. It's poor people who can, who are gonna bear the brunt of all this ideological weirdness.

Kara Swisher 28:04 Mm-hmm. I very much think they're gonna go after marriage. Eh, this is the hallmarks of all of it. I think this is, they're gonna go after that. They're trying to get it to the Supreme Court, just like they did with affirmative action. They're tr- they're trying to get libel cases with the press. There's certain... Uh, y- eh, this obsession about gender ideology has really twisted them in a way that's really, um, it's just twisted them in ways that I think is much more at the heart of ideology than just, "Let's attack the poor people." I think they have a real... They, they wanna push back so much of the stuff, uh, that has happened over the past couple years, uh, probably including among their children and everything else. So, we'll see where it goes. But eh, taking down pages is really just about... It seems so needlessly cruel.

Scott Galloway 28:47 Very strange.

Kara Swisher 28:47 Um, let's go on a quick, uh, break. When we come back, when we... We'll talk about winners and losers from the latest round of Big Tech earnings. We'll talk a little bit a- more about what Musk is doing by being the, uh, n- not, not the second president, the president. We're recording this Monday morning. The US markets just opened a little while ago, and the Dow dropped 600 points. NASDAQ is down 2%, S&P down around 1.75%. Global stocks are also plunging. We'll get back to Elon Musk running the United States r- in a second. But, um, it's been a few busy days for tech earnings also. Let's go through it to sort of line us up for that. Apple reported blockbuster earnings

Kara Swisher 29:24 for its most recent quarter, but the numbers show a slight dip in year-over-year iPhone revenue. Probably not a surprise. Showing Apple Intelligence did not boost sales that they had hoped, although it introduced quar- sort of at the end of the quarter. Microsoft reported a 12% year-over-year rise in revenue, although its cloud business is slowing. And Meta beat expectations with revenue rising 21% in the last quarter. Really big performance from Meta. Tesla mostly missed expectations on earnings and revenue with $25 billion in quarterly revenue. Automotive revenue fell 8%. Um, these earnings were announced during the initial DeepSeek frenzy last week. Um, eh, there's questions about the AI spending plans. Microsoft has ear- has earmarked $80 billion for AI this year, while Meta has pledged as much as 65 billion. Um, let's talk about... Uh, obviously, tariffs probably may or may not affect them. And, uh, at the same time, they've pledged, uh, fealty to Trump in one way or another. Um, and now there's things to throw in, as Meta is reportedly in talks to reincorporate in Texas or another state, according to The Wall Street Journal. Uh, out of Delaware. Uh, it has to do with certain lawsuits, uh, that, uh, Mark Zuckerberg is facing, I believe. Um, but Texas seems to be the place where they all have... is their safe space. Uh, thoughts about the earnings?

Scott Galloway 30:42 Yeah, like they continue to do, I mean all of 'em, it just went from sort of better, you know, good, better, best. The, I don't think you've seen any, any chill around earnings. What I, the thing I find most interesting is that (sighs) all of 'em, uh, have essentially said, "We're going big at, um, AI," except for Apple in terms of cap ex, and no one is thinking that Apple is the dumb one right now. Apple said, "We're gonna take sort of a wait and see approach, and we're gonna leverage other people's technology and investments," and Apple just continues to, you know, sort of over-perform. And then the other one is, uh, Meta, using their kind of AI ad technology, they continue to serve more ads, more targeted, more effective. It's almost like what Tim Cook did to Meta was similar to what we did to China around AI, and that is we forced, or Tim Cook with their opt-in, kind of trying to kneecap, uh, Meta, actually inspired them to figure out a workaround where now their ad stack is, is much more robust and much more AI driven. And, uh, just as we held kind of sophisticated chap technolo- chip technology from, uh, China, which forced them to come up with a workaround that might in fact disrupt American AI, uh, Apple sorta is... No one is criticizing Apple now for not making these enormous, uh, announcements about just these staggering investments. But I, I, you know-

Kara Swisher 32:14 Do you see any effect of the Deep Seek? That came at the end of the quarter obviously, and it did shake up the, shake up the stock market and people worried about the spending.

Scott Galloway 32:24 This is my, my thesis right now, and is that similar... that AI may be like... I mean, there's three layers to AI, s- loosely speaking, buckets. There's the infrastructural layer, the NVIDIA guys. There's the LLMs, the Anthropics, the OpenAIs, Perplexity in there, and then there's the application layer, an Expedier, an Airbnb or whoever comes up with AI to do more sophisticated things or make their services better, they're the customer layer. I wonder if this is gonna end up being like the airline industry and the PC industry, where there's a massive increase in economic value and productivity, but no one company is able to capture the majority of revenues similar to the way people are banking that Microsoft, OpenAI and NVIDIA are gonna be able to capture it. Now, Intel captured a ton of revenue and shareholder value because they were the brains inside of PCs. I was on the board of Gateway Computer, do you remember that?

Kara Swisher 33:15 Oh, of course, Ted Wait, yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:17 We... Okay, get this. PCs changed the world.

Kara Swisher 33:19 You were on that board? What?

Scott Galloway 33:21 I was on the board of Gateway Computer, I know.

Kara Swisher 33:22 You're kidding. No wonder.

Scott Galloway 33:23 Talk about the weakest flex in the world.

Kara Swisher 33:24 No wonder what happened to it. (laughs) No sorry, sorry that I said that.

Scott Galloway 33:27 Yeah. Anyways, so we were the second-largest-

Kara Swisher 33:30 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 33:31 ... manufacturer of computers. You think about it, if someone had said 100 years ago, PCs... or 50 years, "PCS, uh, uh, these super computers that cost the government billions of dollars, we're gonna be able to put one on every desk." PC manufacturers, Dell for a little while but not anyone else, Le- Lenovo, ASUS, Compaq, Packard Bell, remember all these companies? N- none of 'em got anywhere, maybe with the exception of Dell, in a, in a product that revolutionized the world. The airline industry-

Kara Swisher 34:04 It's true. That's a really good analogy. S- God, you've, you come up with a good one.

Scott Galloway 34:08 Every once in a while, right? Yes.

Kara Swisher 34:09 You really do. I hadn't thought about that, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 34:11 Well, I'm not done, I'm not done.

Kara Swisher 34:12 All right.

Scott Galloway 34:12 So, uh, uh, the airline industry-

Kara Swisher 34:14 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 34:15 I'm about to get on a plane-

Kara Swisher 34:16 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 34:17 ... and in eight and a half hours, I'm gonna be in fucking Disney World-

Kara Swisher 34:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:20 ... for like... Now granted, I'm gonna spend a shit ton of money 'cause I'm a narcissist, but I could do it for $400. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 34:26 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 34:27 I could skirt along the surface of the atmosphere at eight tenths the speed of sound for almost no money, almost no money. W- as opposed to getting scurvy or having to eat my niece in, i- through the passage of, of the-

Kara Swisher 34:41 Please don't do that.

Scott Galloway 34:42 ... the Andes or the Rockies-

Kara Swisher 34:43 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 34:44 ... which they had to do 150 years ago. Commercial jet transportation-

Kara Swisher 34:47 Not willingly, but go ahead. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 34:49 But you see what I'm saying?

Kara Swisher 34:50 Yes.

Scott Galloway 34:51 Jet, commercial jet (laughs) transportation-

Kara Swisher 34:53 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:54 ... has been remarkable. And guess what? The airlines have lost more money than they've made-

Kara Swisher 34:59 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:59 ... because there's no barriers of entry, everyone copied each other, and all of the value is recognized by the general public. And I now believe, after what I saw with Deep Seek... By the way, I just fucking love that Sam Altman was copping everything and then someone copied him.

Kara Swisher 35:12 W- we're gonna, we're gonna get to that. I'm gonna a-

Scott Galloway 35:14 Karma's a bitch, Sam. Anyway.

Kara Swisher 35:14 ... I'm gonna ask that in a second, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 35:16 But-

Kara Swisher 35:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 35:17 ... this might be a tectonic shift, and I'm drunk on this idea, or I'm intoxicated by this idea-

Kara Swisher 35:23 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 35:23 ... that AI might be the airline or the PC industry where there's enormous value created and it's all captured by consumers and the public and the commonwealth-

Kara Swisher 35:33 Interesting.

Scott Galloway 35:33 ... but no one company is able to capture the trillions of dollars in value that we've become used to in big tech.

Kara Swisher 35:40 So who's the Microsoft? Who's the Google? Anyway, let me, let me note, you mo- noted OpenAI, they're in talks to raise $40 billion in a funding round which would value the company as high as $300 billion. SoftBank would lead the round

Kara Swisher 35:53 investing between 15 and 25 billion. There's s- there was several good Masayoshi Son, uh, things. I'd forgotten how much success he's had too even though he's had so many disasters, he's like one or the other, it's fascinating. Um, I looked at Lionel Barber's book called Gambling Man which, uh, was really quite good, I recommend it. Um, OpenAI was valued at $157, uh, uh, uh, billion in October. Uh, meanwhile, Sam is giving competition some credit on Reddit in an AMA this weekend when asked if OpenAI would show users all of the thinking steps. Um, Altman said yes, and give credit to R1 also, also known as Deep Seek when asked if he would consider a more open source approach like Meta's LLaMA. He said the company was discussing doing so and he feels we've been on the wrong side of history. Uh, uh, w- do you... What do you think of him admitting the company needs to make changes, and of course this fundraising round? He, he certainly moves fast, I'll tell you that.

Scott Galloway 36:50 I have never heard a bell signaling the top like the fucking gong of Masayoshi-san saying he's gonna invest 50 billion-

Kara Swisher 37:00 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 37:01 ... in OpenAI-

Kara Swisher 37:02 15. 15.

Scott Galloway 37:03 Uh, I, I read that it was gonna be as much as 45. It's 15?

Kara Swisher 37:06 N- no, four- 15 and 25 billion. There's a $40 billion fundraising and he's gonna be 15 or 25 billion of it.

Scott Galloway 37:14 Okay.

Kara Swisher 37:14 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 37:14 So, 15 of a $40 billion round.

Kara Swisher 37:17 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 37:18 At a valuation, I read, that is greater than the valuation on ByteDance right now.

Kara Swisher 37:23 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 37:23 At somewhere between 300 and 350 billion.

Kara Swisher 37:26 Yeah. Yes, that's correct.

Scott Galloway 37:28 So, when Masayoshi-san says, "We need to be crazy," he's living up to it.

Kara Swisher 37:33 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 37:33 I think this will be... I think this will go down as arguably in terms of gross tonnage-

Kara Swisher 37:40 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 37:40 ... gross capital lost, I think this is, uh, uh, uh, I think this is just so fucking ridiculous.

Kara Swisher 37:49 Not a fan. You're thinking WeWork here versus one of the others where he's made a ton of money.

Scott Galloway 37:53 Well, okay, this isn't WeWork.

Kara Swisher 37:54 There's a couple he's made some real killings.

Scott Galloway 37:56 WeWork... WeWork was renting desk space.

Kara Swisher 37:58 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 37:58 It wasn't a tech company. This is a tech company. There's a non-zero probability that given how smart Sam is, given this unbelievable technology, which I am using 50 times a day-

Kara Swisher 38:09 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 38:09 ... they will figure out a way... I, I don't see how it right now, given the fact that the Chinese appear to have come up with something very robust for a fraction or less, the lack of barriers of entry, the regulatory issues, I don't see how this is, today-

Kara Swisher 38:28 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 38:28 ... one of the 15 most valuable companies in the world. Now, what they're saying is for Masayoshi-san to get his limited partners the return they expect with the risk here-

Kara Swisher 38:38 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 38:38 ... he's saying this will be one of the five or seven most valuable companies within three years-

Kara Swisher 38:44 Right.

Scott Galloway 38:44 ... uh, in the world. This, to me, is an asymmetrically incredibly bad bet. And he is known for... Uh, and, to be fair, he did ARM, uh, uh, uh-

Kara Swisher 38:56 Mm-hmm. Big win.

Scott Galloway 38:56 ... he had a big win there. He's had some wins. But his vision funds-

Kara Swisher 39:00 Yahoo to Ma.

Scott Galloway 39:01 His vision-

Kara Swisher 39:01 Yeah. I mean-

Scott Galloway 39:02 His vision funds have underperformed the market.

Kara Swisher 39:05 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 39:05 He himself is a great entrepreneur. Softbank or his telco has done really well.

Kara Swisher 39:12 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 39:12 But the funds themselves have underperformed the benchmarks.

Kara Swisher 39:16 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 39:16 And to me, this is, this is literally... I saw the valuation here.

Kara Swisher 39:22 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 39:22 And when I look at the risks facing OpenAI, the fact they have no vertical distribution, they don't... Even if AI ends up being as big as it is, even if I'm wrong and there is private company capture along the lines of what cloud and, and smartphones were, there's so many competitors who have direct distribution or existing relationships, whether it's Microsoft that has a direct relationship with 97% of every corporation over a million dollars in the world, whether it's Apple with their iPhones, whether it's Anthropic which has a large investment from Amazon where 80% of households are in a monogamous relationship via Prime, and then there's OpenAI which Masayoshi-san is telling his limited partners that this valuation is gonna be one of the seven most valuable companies in the world in the next 36 months. I, I just think it's nuts. I think, I-

Kara Swisher 40:07 And, and... Gambling man. He's a gambling man.

Scott Galloway 40:10 There you go.

Kara Swisher 40:10 A gambling man.

Scott Galloway 40:11 There you go.

Kara Swisher 40:11 Yeah, it's really interesting to look at his history 'cause he really has gotten some huge wins and some enormous... And WeWork obviously was his most famous one, but there's been others. Um, y- what, what do you think of Sam shifting this? Like, shifting, "Oh, yes, DeepSeek, hmm." And then also, uh, the, the open source thing. Like, a lot of the Facebook people, um, Yann LeCun was like, "Huh, interesting." 'Cause they've been touting, you know, open source, of course, the whole time.

Scott Galloway 40:39 I, I just think if you go to OpenAI right now and type in, "What is karma?" There's a picture of Sam Altman crawling everyone's information and stealing it. And then when he goes to sleep, someone crawls his information-

Kara Swisher 40:49 People have noted that.

Scott Galloway 40:49 ... and steals from him.

Kara Swisher 40:50 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 40:50 I just... I think this is such comeuppance from OpenAI. They start crawling-

Kara Swisher 40:55 So what happens to this company?

Scott Galloway 40:57 I, I think it probably ends up, uh, being an amazing company, doing amazing things and, and the limiteds at the vision fund go, "What the fuck were we thinking investing a $350 billion (laughs) -"

Kara Swisher 41:09 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 41:09 "... valuation?" I don't... This guy is so good, the technology is so amazing. I'm not suggesting it's not gonna be an incredible company-

Kara Swisher 41:15 Not a WeWork, is what you're saying. Not a WeWork here.

Scott Galloway 41:18 Uh, we, we (laughs) ...

Kara Swisher 41:19 I'm teasing you.

Scott Galloway 41:19 WeWork was literally the definition of insanity. Let's, let's, let's create an app for scheduling the conference room and call ourselves a tech company.

Kara Swisher 41:26 Right.

Scott Galloway 41:26 Let's buy office space for a million dollars and lease it out at 200,000 a year, just to show growth. That made no fucking sense. There is a, there is a non-zero probability here that they lead the revolution that's the most seminal change in technology in history. I am now betting that the majority of that capture is gonna be by the larger economy. And based on the fact they have no vertical distribution, based on the fact that China has popped up and said, "Hey, we're here again, and guess what? We're making similar shit for cheaper as we've always done," based on the fact their competitors have vertical distribution, stupid fucking idea to... If he raises money... If they were raising money at 50 billion-

Kara Swisher 42:03 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 42:03 ... I'd try, I'd be calling Masa and say, "I think you're amazing."

Kara Swisher 42:06 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 42:06 "I've been a Sprint customer back from the '90s. Can I get in on this deal?"

Kara Swisher 42:09 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 42:09 At 350 billion? Makes no sense.

Kara Swisher 42:11 Yeah. It was 157 in October, so that, that is kind of a j- a leap at this time. You know, I think they'll... One thing that OpenAI and Sam Altman didn't have is this ability to be flexible and say one thing on Tuesday and a very different thing on Thursday. You know, whatever it takes. Um, the open source thing is sort of interesting as they move forward. Um, obviously, the... Microsoft won that open closed thing with Apple many years ago, although you would say you'd rather have been Apple in many ways. So it'll be interesting what'll happen to this company. Uh, I, I, I sort of wonder, you know, I've always thought is it Netscape or is it Google? That's always been my question about them, and it'll be really interesting to see how he, um, navigates, navigates himself, uh, through, through this difficulty.I, I have not done enough reporting to understand what's happening here. Y- when you see him saying, "We've been on the wrong side of history," that's quite a statement, right? What does that mean precisely? Um, consider a more open source approach? He better hurry, that's all I have to say, if he's gonna want to dominate that. And in that case, it's not quite the same company. But it is hard. As you said, vertical distribution is critical, I think, here. If you're gonna do anything. Maybe a merger? I, I kept thinking a merger with someone, Microsoft, Apple, someone like that. S- that's what I kept thinking.

Scott Galloway 43:29 Yeah, but no one's gonna, no one's gonna pay $350 billion, right?

Kara Swisher 43:32 Yeah, no one's gonna pay $300 billion. (laughs) Not gonna pay too much for this muffler.

Scott Galloway 43:34 Right.

Kara Swisher 43:34 Yeah, it's a good muffler.

Scott Galloway 43:34 And by the way, the people, the people investing in that round-

Kara Swisher 43:37 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:37 ... they're not looking for $350 billion, they're looking for a trillion back.

Kara Swisher 43:39 That's right.

Scott Galloway 43:39 And guess what? If I type into OpenAI-

Kara Swisher 43:42 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 43:42 ... or ChatGPT in the voice of Kara Swisher, specifically referencing chapter seven on-

Kara Swisher 43:48 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 43:48 ... on, you know, whatever it is, Microsoft, from her book, Burn Book-

Kara Swisher 43:52 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 43:52 ... it's remarkably accurate-

Kara Swisher 43:54 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 43:54 ... in your voice referencing that chapter.

Kara Swisher 43:56 It is.

Scott Galloway 43:56 They have crawled your book.

Kara Swisher 43:58 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:58 They are using your IP without paying you.

Kara Swisher 44:00 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:01 So DeepSEEC, bring it on. Copy that bitch's sh- do to him-

Kara Swisher 44:06 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:06 ... what he's been doing to us.

Kara Swisher 44:08 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:08 I am so here for DeepSEEC. It is so weird to be rooting-

Kara Swisher 44:12 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 44:12 ... for a Chinese company-

Kara Swisher 44:13 You're rooting for the Chinese-

Scott Galloway 44:15 ... the Canadians, and the Germans.

Kara Swisher 44:16 ... the Canadians, and the Germans. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, more on Elon's hostile takeover of the US government, which is what I called it. Scott, we're back. Um, Elon Musk's Doge now has access, as I said, to the federal payments system. Uh, Musk criticized

Kara Swisher 44:29 the US Treasury Department. Obviously, they're trying to close down USAID. He said he's doing it on instructions from President Trump, and he's doing what he said. They're saying that their stuff w- uh, uh, obviously, uh, the concern is privacy and, uh, sensitive and classified information being accessed by a bunch of kids. That's a worry. That's sort of been a, been a narrative around over the weekend. Obviously, the way they did it was sort of in the middle of the weekend, they crashed in, all kinds of people left and tried to stop them. Um, it's quite a dramatic thing. And then Congress has no ability to stop him, um, in some way. Uh, it, it is concerning that the world's, uh, richest man has a- and a private citizen that has contracts with, massive contracts with the federal government has this much access, and now seemingly has the power to close down entire, uh, departments. They think it's a, obviously I'm doing a, uh, on with some of the experts of what he did at Twitter, um, and is doing here. Um, but it's, it i- it is one way to take over a government, um, is to be doing this. And of course, they're arguing that they're trying to save money and it's the only way to do it, but they're flinging all kinds of, uh, uh, unsupportable allegations about different things. But of course, that chaos is part of the plan here. Any thoughts on this?

Scott Galloway 45:44 Well, i- i- when you have the world's richest man who can deny people there's, you know, get in the way of their Medicare, Social Security, veterans benefits unilaterally based on his crew that shows up, I mean, it's the ultimate, we complain about regulatory capture and private capture. We, richest man in the world does now have access to who gets money from the federal government without the approval or the oversight of our elected representatives.

Kara Swisher 46:11 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 46:12 So, uh, uh, a- again, there's just so much crazy shit going on that we never thought we would see, that people don't seem to be... they're, they're just, they're, you know, it's triage right now. There's so many incoming projectiles at everybody that they don't know how to respond and absorb this.

Kara Swisher 46:29 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 46:30 But he is now kind of the puppet master. And I, the notion that he can go into a website and turn off payments for social services or government-

Kara Swisher 46:40 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 46:40 ... services, or shut off foreign aid, uh, at his sole discretion, um, it's just, it's-

Kara Swisher 46:47 Well, he says he's d- he's doing it on the president's orders. So go ahead.

Scott Galloway 46:51 Well, g- that's fair, because he's appointed by the president and the president can remove him. But m- my impression is based on the, the tariffs, the market's reaction to taking a stock up that basically, okay, you have one guy who the president has entrusted to make these decisions real time.

Kara Swisher 47:07 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 47:08 And it's, uh, you know, we, th- the, one of the downsides or the upsides of a bureaucracy and what people would argue correctly is sometimes an inefficient government, is that we don't let any... You know, power corrupts, and absolute power absolutely corrupts. And what we have here is absolute power. And what do you know? It's the world's wealthiest man. And it goes back to the same thing. There has to be a check on this American experience where we just have decided that money translates to not only power, but to rights. And we are transferring more and more wealth, which subsequently means more and more power, and probably most upsetting, more and more rights at the expense of poor people. And what's gonna happen to every company that isn't owned-

Kara Swisher 47:55 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 47:56 ... by Musk? And I look at these tariffs and I'm like, "This is brilliant." He's figured out a way-

Kara Swisher 48:00 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 48:01 ... to create a tariff that pretty much exempts Tesla. Everyone's like, "Well, Tesla sells a lot of cars into China." No, all the ch-

Kara Swisher 48:09 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 48:09 ... cars being sold in China are manufactured in China.

Kara Swisher 48:11 Yeah, they'll not be affected.

Scott Galloway 48:12 They're not subject to tariffs.

Kara Swisher 48:12 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 48:13 Anyways, it's, it's, I find it very distressing-

Kara Swisher 48:16 There, there are-

Scott Galloway 48:17 ... and very un-American.

Kara Swisher 48:17 There, there are ver- very little. It's interesting to see whether you saw those protests in Germany or you're not seeing them in this country, whether... But Musk's, uh, favorables are quite low, really quite low considering most, a lot of people look up to him. Uh, which is interesting, because it does look, especially with this, this crew he's got around him, it feels like a movie someone made up, right? Some of this stuff. And one of, they're all kids, they're all kids of some sort that are around him, or, or people that work for, they're all his people that are coming in and demanding to see everything, demanding their, their, you know, they're like the, they're like the evil genius bar essentially that's going in to all these places. And they did take over what was essentially the genius bar for the government, the US Digital Service, and they've renamed it the US Doge Service. Um, and that gives them access. Th- this, these were already set up, these, these offices in every federal, uh, federal government, uh, facility and every department.Um, and, and, you know, some of them, some of them l- literally were, was just a colle- was just a camp counselor. And one kid did this astonishing computing around decoding, um, these ancient scrolls, brilliant people who had brilliant, uh, coding skills and brilliant computer skills. Um, but it's the sort of team... One guy is called Big Balls, that's his nickname, which I don't, I doubt he has them. It'd be... That's what his nickname is? I bet they're small balls. Um, it's just, it... The whole thing feels so bizarre. And people are freaking out because I don't think many people can do anything, right? What do you do when he does this? Um, there... It doesn't feel like Congress has a handle on it. The Democrats do not control Congress. Um, it feels like it's in plain sight, just this is how they're gonna go through every federal agency and do this unless they're stopped by courts. That's, you know... Which is interesting. Now, Ezra Klein was making a really interesting, uh, argument, which I, I like. I'm gonna read from it. Um, "There's a reason Trump is doing all this through executive orders rather than submitting these directives as legislation to pass through Congress. A more powerful executive could persuade Congress to eliminate the spending he opposes or reform the civil service, uh, to give himself powers of hiring and firing that he seeks. To write those changes into legislation would make them more durable and allow him to argue their merits in a more strategic way. Even if Trump's aim is to bring the servil- civil service to heel, to get... to rid it of his opponents and to turn it to his own ends, he would be better off arguing that he's simply trying to bring high-performance management culture to, uh, Silicon Valley to the federal government. You never want a power grab to look like a power grab." I thought (laughs) that was exactly o- on point. I don't know what you think. He's calling it weak.

Scott Galloway 50:51 Yeah, I'm pre-

Kara Swisher 50:51 This is a weak...

Scott Galloway 50:51 I'm pretty...

Kara Swisher 50:52 ... flex.

Scott Galloway 50:53 I think almost every life lesson can be extracted from one of the seasons of Game of Thrones.

Kara Swisher 50:57 Mm.

Scott Galloway 50:57 And I feel like Elon Musk right now is the high s- is the, um, High Sparrow.

Kara Swisher 51:02 Oh.

Scott Galloway 51:02 And-

Kara Swisher 51:02 That's not good for him.

Scott Galloway 51:04 ... and Tommen is, is President Trump.

Kara Swisher 51:07 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 51:07 Uh, it feels to me like, uh, Trump is just kind of massaging and coordinating everything here-

Kara Swisher 51:14 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 51:14 ... and shows up with these really impressive, probably very hardworking, intensely smart group of people, who show total fealty to Musk like a, like a god, and I bet Trump admires that. And they all... And Trump says to them, "Show that same sort of loyalty to him."

Kara Swisher 51:29 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 51:30 And Trump says, "This guy's smart. He fired 80% of Twitter staff. This is exactly what we need in the government." And they just go at it, and y- y- I, I don't think, at this point, Trump has the regulatory checks, uh, to even slow him down unless he were to decide to fire them.

Kara Swisher 51:45 Right.

Scott Galloway 51:46 So, I think he's just going w- after it so fast and so furious-

Kara Swisher 51:50 He's his junkyard dog. That's what he is. He's just... He doesn't care-

Scott Galloway 51:53 It-

Kara Swisher 51:53 ... what he does to get there.

Scott Galloway 51:55 Yeah. It just... It feels... And I think the damage here is going to take, um... I mean, there's a component of it that I understand. There's a kernel of, like, value, you know? It's-

Kara Swisher 52:06 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 52:06 ... because he-

Kara Swisher 52:06 Something has to shake it up. Something has to shake it up, right?

Scott Galloway 52:09 You can see the importance of shock value, and occasionally, you do need to kind of go in with a hammer, not a scalpel.

Kara Swisher 52:16 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 52:16 I- it strikes me that this is just so reckless.

Kara Swisher 52:19 This is what he did at Twitter. This is the same tactics. He... You know, one of the things that... You know, when they were talking about, "Oh, look, the word fork in the road is in the, um, is in the letter," Elon Musk wanted you to see that. They... He know- he, he wanted you to know it was, you know, "It was me. Tell them it was me." You know what I mean? Like, he want- he wants people to have a s- to... And the journalists to write that he's trying to copy what he did at Twitter, right? Which, which is, which a lot of these moves, you know, he... Remember, he seized the systems, fired people, took over people's, there was worries about privacy. It's the same kind of playbook that he has. He was sleeping in the office. That's his favorite thing to do. Apparently, they have beds at the Office of Personnel Management. Bringing in his cronies. This is the same... You know, it's like watching Fast and Furious over and over again, except they're a bunch of geeks, I guess. I agree with you. I, I think it's, (laughs) it's really... I do think it's the mark of a loser, and he wants to be seen as a king, and so he's, he's siccing his, his... this guy on people and, to scare them. And I'm not so sure they're so easily scared. That's... I, I think this FBI agent that pushed back, a lot of these people at these agencies are pushing back. And we'll see, we'll see if Congress has any kind of balls, which they don't, in any way, what... They kind of like it in some weird way. The Republicans certainly do. But I don't know. I don't know. We'll see where it goes. We'll see where it goes. Um, and, uh, and they're the concerns, of course, are privacy and the ability for these people to, to download all this information about people. Um, we'll see why these... what explanations they have, of course, but, uh, let's just say we... Scott and I don't trust them on first blush. All right, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Scott,

Kara Swisher 54:03 let's hear some wins and fails.

Scott Galloway 54:07 It strikes me that you need a better strategy than showing up at churches and schools and workplaces to- for these, uh, immigration raids.

Kara Swisher 54:16 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 54:16 Uh, I don't... I just find it so ironic that, that, uh, uh, the agencies charged with locating people... I... Okay, starting with, starting with people who've been, uh, uh, detained for a crime, I get it.

Kara Swisher 54:31 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 54:31 But it just strikes me as so ironic that, that they have determined the place to find these undocumented workers is at work, church, or school.

Kara Swisher 54:42 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 54:42 Doesn't that make them the most American of us? (laughs) I mean-

Kara Swisher 54:46 Right. Hard workers.

Scott Galloway 54:46 It's just so... It's so unro- it's so ironic. But it appears that we've decided that if we want to find undocumented workers, we should go to a workplace, or they're sending their kids to school, or they're going to worship? It, it just so... I find it so, so telling that maybe, maybe... I mean, I, I, I, I'm not about... I'm not against...... deporting people. But I find it illuminating that, okay, we didn't wake up one day and just find out that 17% of people on construction work sites were undocumented workers. And what I don't think we've come to grips with, in terms of an honest conversation around this, is one, I do belie- I don't think you can have open borders. But two, the reason why we have let this go so far is that the most... If the secret sauce of America is immigration, the most profitable part of that secret sauce has been illegal immigration (laughs) , and we don't wanna have an honest conversation about it, because they come in, they take care of grandma, they pick our crops, they build our houses, and then when the work dries up, they leave without taking Social Security. They pay Social Security taxes, but they never stick around for Social Security. They actually don't lean on our social services 'cause they're worried about being deported, and have you seen what's happened at construction sites across America? They're empty. People aren't showing up. So, I wonder if this strategy is just of, of trying to shock and awe and intimidate, is very short-sighted and not good for the economy, and not going to accomplish what we need to accomplish in terms of having a sane immigration strategy. That's my, you know... Anyways, I, I, I, that, that, call it two fails in a row here. The other f- real fail, again, under the auspices of flooding the zone with mendacious shit, you know, uh, a foreign aid freeze? I think we spent about $70 billion, or about $200 per citizen, and this is some of the things we do. You know, in Sudan, you know, the US supports 600 and, uh, you know... We support 634 soup kitchens that feed almost a million people. In Thail- Thailand and Myanamar, refugee hospitals funded by the US are closing their doors. Patients with tuberculosis and life-threatening conditions are being carried away on makeshift stretchers. In Africa, the famine in Sudan is worse. I mean, uh, the Democratic Republic of Congo, where US aid supported four and a half million displaced people, verge of eradi- we were on the verge of eradicating diseases like malaria and malnutrition because of private and public coordination. In Cambodia, where the US was close to eliminating malaria, officials now fear the disease is making-

Kara Swisher 57:25 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 57:25 ... a comeback. It, it (overlapping)

Kara Swisher 57:27 Scott, "It's not helping Americans. It's not helping Americans." That's the stupidest argument.

Scott Galloway 57:32 Yeah, but I, I, I think-

Kara Swisher 57:32 It does help Americans.

Scott Galloway 57:34 I think the majority of Republicans-

Kara Swisher 57:36 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 57:37 ... when if you sat them down and you said, "For 200 bucks a year, this is the good we're gonna do around the world, and this is the goodwill it's gonna create, and these are the diseases we're gonna eradicate, and this is how we're gonna find refugees who were displaced in wars a, a, a shot at surviving," I think the majority of the people go, "Here's $200. Right on."

Kara Swisher 57:59 Yep, yep.

Scott Galloway 57:59 These are-

Kara Swisher 58:00 I, I, I, I can't even. It's the cruelest. It's the cruelest and s- small m- most petty and small-minded of cuts. I- there's so many cruel and p- Just, like cutting, like we talked about last week, cutting the, um, the security details of people who work for this country. It's so petty, it's so small, and it shows you the shiveal (ph) little heart that we have at work here. Like that-

Scott Galloway 58:20 But, but let's put the morality aside. So you decide, "Look, I'm a- I want that $200 to go to American kids, full stop." Okay, I understand the argument. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. That 200 bucks, that void we're leaving, Russia and China are gonna step into that void. They're going to find all- people willing to be allies-

Kara Swisher 58:39 That's right.

Scott Galloway 58:40 ... and who will fund groups. W- we have this sense of security, this cold comfort, that there aren't people out there who would come for us, kill us, and take our shit away, and one of the reasons they don't is because they can't, because generally speaking, the vast majority of nations and the vast majority of people around the world might find us obnoxious, they might find us gluttonous, they might find us arrogant, but they think at the end of the day, we're trying to do the right thing, that we're the people who are funding that hospital, that when there's refugees, when there are homeless people and there are maternity wards being shelled in the, in Ukraine, that American charities show up, when-

Kara Swisher 59:17 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 59:18 I mean, w- we're seen as the good guys.

Kara Swisher 59:20 Yep, we're not the good guys.

Scott Galloway 59:20 And that pays enormous, that pays enormous dividends that we don't, we don't recognize, because the homeland hasn't been attacked since September 11th. So even if you think, even if you don't make the moral argument or you don't accept the moral argument-

Kara Swisher 59:36 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 59:36 ... just s- from a security standpoint-

Kara Swisher 59:38 Agreed, agreed.

Scott Galloway 59:38 ... a geo political power standpoint, this is the best 200 b- bucks we can spend.

Kara Swisher 59:43 Canadians are booing us, people. Canadians don't boo anybody, let's just say. Canadians are-

Scott Galloway 59:48 They're booing. Did you see the national anthem?

Kara Swisher 59:49 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 59:49 They started booing.

Kara Swisher 59:49 They're booing us. They're booing us. Anyway, uh, all right, I'll start with mine. Um, my win, obviously, has to go to Beyonce on her album of the year.

Scott Galloway 59:59 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 59:59 Grammy win for Cowboy Carter.

Scott Galloway 1:00:01 I'm glad they're lighting, lighting up.

Kara Swisher 1:00:01 You know what? Watching the Grammys was great. They were... The vibe they had was like, "Fuck you, Olive. We're gonna be black, we're gonna be interesting, we're gonna be talented, we're gonna be enjoyable." I, there was not a lot of... The vibe was so good at the, at the-

Scott Galloway 1:00:14 Not good.

Kara Swisher 1:00:15 ... at the, at the Grammys. I'm sorry. They weren't-

Scott Galloway 1:00:17 I did not happen.

Kara Swisher 1:00:17 They weren't doing a lot of the, like, virtue signaling at all. In fact, they were just like, "We're fuckin' better. We're cooler. We're so cool. We are so creative." Anyway, Beyonce's the top that... I love Cowboy Carter. I loved that album. There's a lot of albums I loved this year. Kendrick Lamar's was... I liked a lot. But this one, I really enjoyed and played it over and over again. Um, she's been nominated four times in this category. Um, this was her first, uh, album to win it, and deserve it. It... Go listen to it. It's really a wonderful album in lots of ways, and really fun, actually super fun, and really moving and everything else. So, congratulations Beyonce. I know it's been hard for you to make it in this business. Um, I also really enjoyed watching Taylor Swift dance her ass off throughout (laughs) no matter what. She made kind of a little, like an adorable spectacle of herself, dancing with kids, dancing in coats. And also, uh, Janelle Monae did a Michael Jackson dance. Everybody. And, and, um, Lady Gaga did an amazing, uh, duet of California Dreaming with Bruno Mars. Really wonderful. The whole Grammys was wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Uh, my fail, um, besides this ridiculous antics of Elon Musk, which continues into the fuckin' millennial... Uh, make Elon go away is a really good, um, thing to happen. He should go to Mars again. I think he should realize his dream. We should s- spend all that foreign aid money we're not spending on sending him to Mars immediately. But, um, was an interview that Mitch McConnell did with Lesley Stahl on 60 Minutes, which is, uh, under attack because the owners are trying to, uh, p- pay off, uh, Trump through settling a lawsuit, as we talked about last week. But this is a great interview with Mitch McConnell, where she... he goes... you know, she's like, "You wrote this and this and this about Trump being a terrible person." He goes, "Well, that was a private conversation." And then she goes, "Well, it's in your book." And he's like, "Yes, it is." Like (laughs) , he's just... This guy had every opportunity to stop Trump in a very significant way and did not do so, and-... it, it mystifies me that he could act like he doesn't like him, just, he doesn't get the right not to. He facilitated Trump, um, and to try to pretend he didn't is really... He's a loathsome toad, he really is, of all the people, 'cause you can't hate someone and then be the reason they're still here, and, and gave them the lifeline that he d- richly did not deserve. So Mitch McConnell, you also should go away. You really should. You've been a real, um...

Scott Galloway 1:02:39 He did vote against Hegseth, which is kind of-

Kara Swisher 1:02:41 He did, finally. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Scott Galloway 1:02:43 I feel like that's, I feel like that's Hannibal Lecter deciding as a vegan on his deathbed.

Kara Swisher 1:02:47 I know.

Scott Galloway 1:02:47 I mean, it's just like-

Kara Swisher 1:02:48 I was like-

Scott Galloway 1:02:48 ... doesn't do us a lot of good now, right?

Kara Swisher 1:02:49 Exactly. You're no John McCain, my friend. You're just no John McCain, and I just, that... Trying to be like that right now, I don't know what he's going for, but I would like his tour to be over and I'd like him to go back to where, to Kentucky and just get the fuck out of here. Just leave. It's all your fault, uh, Mr. Mc- Mr. McConnell. Anyway, um, that is my fail, but he's always-

Scott Galloway 1:03:12 I have a quick question for you.

Kara Swisher 1:03:13 Sure. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:03:14 Is Edward Snowden a traitor?

Kara Swisher 1:03:16 Complex topic. Comple- I did an interview with him many years ago, and I think what he uncovered was astonishingly disturbing about, uh, the government spying on citizens. Um, so in that way, a good thing, uh, and a bad thing the way he did it. I think, I, I, there's all kinds of hair all over him in ways that are disturbing. Um, I have talked to many national security people who find him to be a traitor, and they have very persuasive arguments. I have a hard time, uh, deciding, uh, uh, about that. I, I do. I, I, even after doing the interview... Um, and I hate to say that because I think that in many ways he is and, uh, and in many ways he isn't. I don't know what to say. That's where I am. I, I don't know what else to say. Um, anyway, uh, I think it's a complex topic, let's just say, and the, and our, and they did make reforms after he did it, but at the same time, the way he did it was traitorous too. Complex. Why did you ask that? Let me ask you. Why'd you ask that?

Scott Galloway 1:04:16 Uh, because, well-

Kara Swisher 1:04:19 Tulsi Gabbard.

Scott Galloway 1:04:19 ... I thought that was the most interesting moment of the... But you now as well, no longer, in my opinion, are qualified to run our National Intelligence Service.

Kara Swisher 1:04:26 Okay. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:04:26 I think that's a, I think that's a layup of a question.

Kara Swisher 1:04:28 All right. Okay. I just-

Scott Galloway 1:04:29 I'm not suggesting, I'm not suggesting what was found out might not ultimately be good for America, but he's full stop 100% a traitor.

Kara Swisher 1:04:36 I'm usually with the national security people on this thing, and I think he did hurt our national security apparatus.

Scott Galloway 1:04:41 You lost my vote. I'll vote for you.

Kara Swisher 1:04:43 And he... (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:04:43 You might- secretary of defense, I'm in for you.

Kara Swisher 1:04:45 (laughs) Anyway, um, I, I just have a smidge of, "I don't love the government, what they did." So anyway, uh, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott

Kara Swisher 1:05:02 universe, I talked to Ben Stiller about Severance on On. Let's listen to a clip.

Narrator 1:05:06 There's so many different ideas of what, you know, Severance could be a metaphor for.

Kara Swisher 1:05:11 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 1:05:12 And I think we all do sever to a certain extent-

Kara Swisher 1:05:14 Sure.

Narrator 1:05:14 ... when we, you know, check out, if you have a drink or, you know, you take a gummy or you, you know, uh, watch a TV show or if you go on your phone. I mean, we all find ways to cope with the everyday sort of, you know, torrent of stuff that's coming at us in life.

Kara Swisher 1:05:31 Right. It's also, I go to hardware stores and browse.

Narrator 1:05:34 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:05:34 Um, when... I do, (laughs) I love them. What do you do to sever, Scott? I- we already know gummies, breath work. What?

Scott Galloway 1:05:42 Uh, I hang out with my dogs. Sometimes I take a gummy. I like to write. I, I just... The evening is my, is my alone kind of peace, peace time. You know, I think it's important to have, uh-

Kara Swisher 1:05:55 Sever.

Scott Galloway 1:05:57 ... mindfulness and, and just do your own thing. And I also occasionally, if I have both a gummy and, um, a couple Makers in Ginger, I put in my AirPods and I dance to '80s music-

Kara Swisher 1:06:09 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:06:10 ... without my, without my shirt on. I dance in the mirror like a 15... what I imagine-

Kara Swisher 1:06:14 Oh my God.

Scott Galloway 1:06:14 ... like a, a gay 15-year-old teenager would do.

Kara Swisher 1:06:17 I so want to see that. I so want to see that.

Scott Galloway 1:06:20 Ugh.

Kara Swisher 1:06:20 Can you put a camera in your house so I can watch that, and then I will sever watching that? That would make me happy.

Scott Galloway 1:06:24 It would literally... It would probably, it would probably decrease the amount of sex people that... people have that night by like, everyone would just be so freaked out and so unattracted to everybody.

Kara Swisher 1:06:34 I want a video where I can watch it over and over.

Scott Galloway 1:06:35 DJs and Tom Petty.

Kara Swisher 1:06:37 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:06:37 Little bit of-

Kara Swisher 1:06:38 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:06:38 ... little bit of edible CBD and sativa with the Makers in Ginger, "Daddy's got the moves. Hello ladies."

Kara Swisher 1:06:44 All right.

Scott Galloway 1:06:45 "Do you believe in love at first sight or should I walk by again?" Boom. (upbeat music)