What's Really Behind Elon Musk's $97 Billion Power Grab for OpenAI | Pivot

Kara Swisher 0:00 Oh, my God. I can't go to a sex movie with you. I just, that just flashed through my brain.

Scott Galloway 0:03 Well, that- that wasn't, that wasn't on my bingo card either, so... (laughs)

Kara Swisher 0:13 (laughs) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I am the very cruel Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:20 And I'm the deceitful Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher 0:22 Yeah, and we're both mean, right? We're both mean.

Scott Galloway 0:25 Yeah, I know we're all for real.

Kara Swisher 0:26 That one's accurate.

Scott Galloway 0:27 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 0:27 Don't you think?

Scott Galloway 0:28 Yeah, the- the-

Kara Swisher 0:28 That one's kinda accurate. We're gonna get into-

Scott Galloway 0:30 ... the revolution-

Kara Swisher 0:30 We're gonna get into-

Scott Galloway 0:31 ... the revolution begins with two podcasts. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 0:33 I know.

Scott Galloway 0:33 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 0:33 So, I don't know about you, uh, you know, but, uh, that was kind of something for Elon to attack us on the Twitter. We're, neither of us are over there, so we had to be told by people. We're like, "What? Huh?"

Scott Galloway 0:43 What?

Kara Swisher 0:44 "What huh?"

Scott Galloway 0:45 That's not nice.

Kara Swisher 0:46 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:46 Al- although I'm glad I didn't have to read, I guess, there's 11 or 12,000 comments.

Kara Swisher 0:50 The comments? Oh, no.

Scott Galloway 0:50 The same thing happens whenever this happens.

Kara Swisher 0:52 Do they hate us?

Scott Galloway 0:53 Pe- well, my guess is it wasn't talking about your grayed hair or my broad shoulders.

Kara Swisher 0:56 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 0:57 But they- I, my, when- whenever Elon tweets about me, the same thing happens. My phone starts blowing up.

Kara Swisher 1:02 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:02 I'm like, "Are you all right?" And I'm like, "Oh, shit did something bad happen?"

Kara Swisher 1:05 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:05 And I'm like, he's, and then someone sent me a screenshot. And I'm like, "I don't..." The thing about being off of, of Twitter-

Kara Swisher 1:10 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:10 ... is you realize how small it is.

Kara Swisher 1:11 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:11 It's like, no-

Kara Swisher 1:12 I'm fine.

Scott Galloway 1:12 ... my life is absolutely-

Kara Swisher 1:14 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:15 ... no different. And the thing that, that immediately came to mind is one of my favorite quotes of FDR is that, "I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made."

Kara Swisher 1:22 I know. It's so weird.

Scott Galloway 1:23 And let me just, let me just add though.

Kara Swisher 1:26 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:27 These were my comments.

Kara Swisher 1:28 Mm-hmm. They were.

Scott Galloway 1:29 And he goes after you.

Kara Swisher 1:30 Of course. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:32 It's like, okay.

Kara Swisher 1:33 I'm always taking a bullet for you, Galloway. It's like-

Scott Galloway 1:35 I'm like, "I said these things, Elon."

Kara Swisher 1:38 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:38 Not-

Kara Swisher 1:39 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:39 ... not Kara.

Kara Swisher 1:40 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:40 And he's acting like these individuals... First off the, can the guy not afford autocorrect? It's like-

Kara Swisher 1:46 Right.

Scott Galloway 1:47 ... young... It's like his team or grammar, pick a struggle.

Kara Swisher 1:50 Right. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:50 And, (laughs) and the notion that they're somehow these-

Kara Swisher 1:55 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:55 ... he portrayed these, this team as being at Guantanamo Bay when the reality is they're on a Discord server figuring out if their logo or their meme should have sunglasses.

Kara Swisher 2:03 Right.

Scott Galloway 2:03 I mean, it's just-

Kara Swisher 2:04 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 2:04 ... to portray these kids as victims-

Kara Swisher 2:06 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 2:06 ... is just kind of hilarious.

Kara Swisher 2:08 I know.

Scott Galloway 2:08 But I, I did feel bad that he went after you-

Kara Swisher 2:11 I know.

Scott Galloway 2:11 ... and not just me, so.

Kara Swisher 2:12 Of course. He, well, I, I am pretty obnoxious about him all over the place, so it probably like glommed up into one thing.

Scott Galloway 2:18 Y- you didn't say anything.

Kara Swisher 2:19 I know.

Scott Galloway 2:20 I said all that shit.

Kara Swisher 2:20 But in general on, on CNN where I call him a toddler, an adult toddler on any day of the week and twice on Sunday or anything, just us threatening him, but the, here's the deal. Here's, first of all, all we, all you said and all, and I tend to agree with is, you know, these, from the reporting, the exceptional reporting by Wired, for example, these guys sound, a couple of them sound like a prick, right? Like, and we said it. These people sound like pricks. They're doing something that's probably fun for them. They get to work for Elon Musk. They get to like raid the government, uh, everything else. We just, we're like, "Uh, this is not the way we should make sausage in our country." It's really gross how they're doing it this way. And they need to do it in a legal way. That's all we said. And he tries to insinuate that we're threatening them 'cause e- as I say, everything, every accusation is a confession by these fellas. And, um, let me just read the, the thing and, the, for people who don't understand. He re-posted a video of us talking about Doge employees in our last, uh, episode. Um, "Scott, Swisher and Galloway are threatening talented young software engineers who gave up high compensation for death threats in order to give, to help American people. Shame on Swisher and Galloway, cruel, mean, and deceitful human beings that they are." First of all, they, they're gonna make high compensation-

Scott Galloway 3:38 Oh.

Kara Swisher 3:38 ... later, folks, by doing this. This ups the compensation level for them 'cause they become legend, uh, among tech people, whatever, 'cause they work for Elon. What, depending how it turns out. Um, also, they didn't trade it for death threats. Like, they traded it 'cause this is what they wanna do, and they were enthusiastically doing it. And we don't have to like them. And just by not liking them, we're not threatening them, so that's fucking nonsense. And neither, you didn't threaten them in any way, and it's a larger part of his strategy of intimidating journalists. They're trying, he's trying to shut us up and somehow link us if anything ever happened to them, to them just 'cause we don't like them. And so that's my... Anyway, go ahead.

Scott Galloway 4:16 The, just to steel man it, he does have a point in the sense that, let's be clear, the, the, in my opinion, trespassing and illegal takeover of our government to hack the system such that veterans and kids and people benefiting from Head Start, uh, this is on the president and Elon Musk. It's really not about these kids. It's, it's really not about them. But what I would ask him is that he come after me when I say things like, "Wow, Elon Musk appears to have made a hard right in his politics," or that the new model, Tesla model SS is coming out. I say those things. You don't.

Kara Swisher 4:55 (laughs) I know. That's very kind of you.

Scott Galloway 4:55 And if he's going to-

Kara Swisher 4:57 Strong man.

Scott Galloway 4:57 ... accuse me of overreach-

Kara Swisher 4:59 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:00 ... then come after me, bitch.

Kara Swisher 5:01 Yeah. No.

Scott Galloway 5:02 I- I, to go after the woman-

Kara Swisher 5:04 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:04 ... it, it shows one of two things. Either you're weak or you're have an incredible bias, a misogynist. If, if the man says something about you and you keep going after the woman who's near him, that just implies incredible weakness on your part.

Kara Swisher 5:19 Yeah. I get it. I understand. I, I do attack him pretty a lot, that's-

Scott Galloway 5:22 And I, I realize you don't need protecting.

Kara Swisher 5:24 I don't need protecting.

Scott Galloway 5:24 But I just found it like-

Kara Swisher 5:26 Thank you.

Scott Galloway 5:26 ... he puts your name first like you did it. I was me.

Kara Swisher 5:28 Well, he likes-

Scott Galloway 5:29 Anyway.

Kara Swisher 5:29 ... to do that. You know, but let me just say about the death threats. You know when I got death threats? When he said my heart was seething with hate. Remember, with Yoel Roth where he said Yoel was evil, uh, and I was, my heart was seething, was filled with seething hate. That, I got... Should he have not done that? I didn't like bitch and moan about that. And I got a lot of really frightening...... stuff aimed at me, and when he does it every time. So, you know what? And instead, he bitches and moans about it. Well, I'm bitching and moaning now, guess what? I got death threats. Guess what? I can handle it. Um, it just is, again, a larger strategy of intimidating journalists and other people who speak out and disagree with him. President Trump called for the Washington Post to fire columnist Eugene Robinson. Elon Musk called, speaking of which, investigative reporter Catherine Long, who was writing about this stuff, disgusting and cruel. Um, you know, it just, this is what these people do all the time. They do all kinds of intimidating and rude remarks, and that's to say nothing of his endless anti-trans stuff, anti-immigrant stuff, his tasteless stuff about gay people, his tasteless stuff about women, about anyone who opposes him. So, this guy, you know, pot, kettle, nice to meet you. Anyway, there you have it.

Scott Galloway 6:41 Well, I, uh, you know, look, uh, we get it wrong sometimes, uh, but just keep in mind, both Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, we live with our children, and so we got that going for us.

Kara Swisher 6:53 Mm-hmm, that's true.

Scott Galloway 6:53 And we're not, we're not giving Nazi salutes.

Kara Swisher 6:55 That was your best one. That was your best one, "You're such a great dad." (laughs)

Scott Galloway 6:59 We're not giving... We're not... You're an amazing father. Uh, I, uh, to the best of my knowledge, I, um, I have not hired video game players, uh, to pretend they're me such that I can go on podcasts and say I'm a world-class video game player. I'm not creating fake accounts to call myself an amazing dad. I do a lot of virtue signaling around my fatherhood, but I haven't gone that far, you know. And so far, so far, I am not addicted to ketamine. I have shown some discipline around that.

Kara Swisher 7:26 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 7:26 I'm willing to try.

Kara Swisher 7:27 Oh, how'd it go?

Scott Galloway 7:28 I'm willing to try. No, I didn't, I didn't get there. I just went out and drank instead. I had something called, uh, I had two mezcal margaritas and half an edible, and that worked for me.

Kara Swisher 7:38 Oh, good.

Scott Galloway 7:38 That all worked.

Kara Swisher 7:38 Jeff Swisher said he'd help you if you need help because he gives ketamine every day as a doctor. Not that he's gonna (overlapping dialogue)

Scott Galloway 7:43 Oh, I gotta tell you, I had... I'm sorry, I keep bringing this back to me. I had lunch with Chris Anderson from TED.

Kara Swisher 7:49 Oh, yeah, him.

Scott Galloway 7:50 And he sat down-

Kara Swisher 7:51 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 7:51 ... and it was so lovely. You know what he said to me?

Kara Swisher 7:52 What?

Scott Galloway 7:52 He looked at me, and he's like, me and Jacqueline, his wife, who's, who's lovely, he's like, "Are you all right?" I'm like, "Yeah, well, I mean, I'm no less fucked, I'm more, more fucked up than I usually am."

Kara Swisher 8:02 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:02 People are, people after hearing that podcast, are worried about me.

Kara Swisher 8:06 They are?

Scott Galloway 8:06 And taking me out to lunch-

Kara Swisher 8:08 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:08 ... and sitting me down. And of course, I gave my answer. He goes, "No, no, really. No, really, Scott, are you, are you all right? And also, would you be willing to come back and do another talk?" Um, anyways, um, and I said-

Kara Swisher 8:20 (laughs) Didn't he step down from TED?

Scott Galloway 8:21 He's like, he's basically, it's kind of a gangster move, I don't know if you've heard about this.

Kara Swisher 8:25 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:25 He said, "I'm giving TED away." And of course, he's gonna give it away to some billionaire who put a bunch of money behind it.

Kara Swisher 8:31 Right.

Scott Galloway 8:31 But he has basically decided to give TED... He needs... Every Democrat over the age of 100, like, 40%, 50% of them, needs to take a, a, a note out of the Chris Anderson page. Like, he's a great fiduciary for our organization.

Kara Swisher 8:44 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:44 He thinks TED pla- plays an important role, and he's like, "It is time to bring someone more youthful and vigorous and some new ideas to this thing."

Kara Swisher 8:52 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:52 And he's gonna give it away, and he's doing this big competition to give TED away. I think it's the right thing to do.

Kara Swisher 8:55 You know why? 'Cause he's tired as fuck. I know where he sits after leaving, uh, you know, the podium.

Scott Galloway 8:59 Oh, 100%.

Kara Swisher 9:00 I was tired as fuck.

Scott Galloway 9:01 He wants out.

Kara Swisher 9:02 I wanted out. He wanted out.

Scott Galloway 9:02 He's on, he's like, he's on the last helicopter out of the Saigon embassy.

Kara Swisher 9:06 I wanted so out.

Scott Galloway 9:08 He's like, "Get me out of here."

Kara Swisher 9:08 And I was like, "Oh, it's the legacy, la, la, la." You know what? I was tired of doing it. I was just fucking exhausted, and I did a great job, but I feel, I feel his pain. So, are you okay, Scott? Are you okay? Especially 'cause Elon attacked you.

Scott Galloway 9:20 I answered him-

Kara Swisher 9:22 As mean and deceitful.

Scott Galloway 9:22 I answered him the same way I always answer that question. I hate my life less and less every day.

Kara Swisher 9:27 Oh.

Scott Galloway 9:27 Things are going pretty well.

Kara Swisher 9:29 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:30 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 9:30 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:30 But this notion that like, I- I'm not, this shit used to bother me.

Kara Swisher 9:34 Yeah, it did.

Scott Galloway 9:35 A guy-

Kara Swisher 9:36 It doesn't bother you anymore. It doesn't.

Scott Galloway 9:38 I, I feel like I'm turning into one of those villains that gets energy from attacks.

Kara Swisher 9:43 Yeah, it's true.

Scott Galloway 9:43 I love that this guy hates me. I just-

Kara Swisher 9:45 Like he punches you, and then you get his energy, like that kind of person?

Scott Galloway 9:49 Seriously.

Kara Swisher 9:50 That's true, yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:50 I'm doing, we're doing some right, Kara.

Kara Swisher 9:52 Yeah, I know. It's true.

Scott Galloway 9:52 We're doing some right.

Kara Swisher 9:54 It's true, he does call most people disgusting and cr- disgusting, cruel, pedo. When he calls you a pedo, that's when you know he loves you, you know? That's when, yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:01 Yeah. We're headed that way?

Kara Swisher 10:03 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 10:03 I don't know, but you, you pointed it out.

Kara Swisher 10:05 You, not me. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 10:06 And I... Look, let's just get to the source here.

Kara Swisher 10:08 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:08 It's just so clear the guy wants to fuck me.

Kara Swisher 10:10 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 10:10 I mean...

Kara Swisher 10:11 That's what I said.

Scott Galloway 10:12 Let's...

Kara Swisher 10:12 The sexual tension is palpable.

Scott Galloway 10:13 I get it.

Kara Swisher 10:13 Palpable.

Scott Galloway 10:14 I get it. And he's rich.

Kara Swisher 10:16 For a straight man.

Scott Galloway 10:16 So, there is a shot here. There is a shot here. He is very rich. I could, I could-

Kara Swisher 10:21 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 10:21 ... maybe go there.

Kara Swisher 10:22 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 10:22 Like, three mezcal margaritas-

Kara Swisher 10:24 No way.

Scott Galloway 10:24 ... and 10 milligrams.

Kara Swisher 10:26 All right, then, then I have to ask you-

Scott Galloway 10:26 At this point, Kara, I'm, I have an open mind.

Kara Swisher 10:29 Okay. I had this, I played this game with someone, I'm not gonna tell you. I didn't, I couldn't answer it.

Scott Galloway 10:33 Hmm.

Kara Swisher 10:33 But, you know, fuck, marry, kill.

Scott Galloway 10:34 Fuck, marry, kill, yeah.

Kara Swisher 10:35 Okay, I'm gonna do this.

Scott Galloway 10:36 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 10:36 You're gonna answer right now.

Scott Galloway 10:37 Okay.

Kara Swisher 10:37 Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg. Go.

Scott Galloway 10:41 Yes.

Kara Swisher 10:43 (laughs) Which one? Which one? Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 10:47 Uh...

Kara Swisher 10:48 We might have played this before, but I'd like to play it again.

Scott Galloway 10:50 Oh, I would definitely marry, uh, Bezos.

Kara Swisher 10:53 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:53 'Cause I'd like to roam around in a thong on one of his yachts.

Kara Swisher 10:56 Okay. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 10:56 I think that, I think that would be a good look for me. I'd be willing to embarrass myself.

Kara Swisher 11:01 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 11:01 They go to the best parties.

Kara Swisher 11:02 Yeah, okay.

Scott Galloway 11:02 I love the fashion.

Kara Swisher 11:04 Okay, I like it.

Scott Galloway 11:04 Oh my God, the fashion I get to wear?

Kara Swisher 11:05 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:05 I'm so down for a lot of cosmetic surgery.

Kara Swisher 11:08 Okay, okay.

Scott Galloway 11:08 Oh- oh my God. I just decided, I'm coming back as Lauren Sanchez in my next life.

Kara Swisher 11:12 All right, Mrs. Bezos, excellent. Okay?

Scott Galloway 11:15 That's it.

Kara Swisher 11:15 Okay, not kill. Uh, we won't use the word "kill" 'cause it's not nice, okay? 'Cause of we're not cruel-

Scott Galloway 11:20 Oh...

Kara Swisher 11:20 ... and disgusting or whatever. Uh, not exist or something.

Scott Galloway 11:25 So, that's marry. So, fuck?

Kara Swisher 11:26 Yeah, fuck.

Scott Galloway 11:27 Oh God, it... I want, I want Zuck to put on one of those jujitsu outfits and start manhandling me a little bit, ooh.

Kara Swisher 11:34 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 11:35 And then a few, a few things go, go the wrong place. Oh, yeah!

Kara Swisher 11:40 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 11:40 Let's get, let's get ready to rumble!

Kara Swisher 11:44 (laughs) Okay.

Scott Galloway 11:44 Oh my God, and I'm not, and I'm not gonna say kill because I don't even think it's funny-

Kara Swisher 11:48 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:48 ... to joke about violence.

Kara Swisher 11:50 Yeah, it's just a game.

Scott Galloway 11:50 But oh no.

Kara Swisher 11:51 It's just a party game, yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:51 I am Lauren Sanchez, and I'm having, I'm making sweet, sweet love to the Zuck. And that chain and that hair...That '70s hair and the mud at Woodstock or something? (growls)

Kara Swisher 12:05 But as always, everything goes back to Elon, who has continued to plague us, but he's now plaguing Sam Altman. The feud with this, uh, with the, uh, CEO of OpenAI took, took a new turn today when a consortium of investors led by Elon is offering $97 billion to buy the nonprofit that controls OpenAI. The bid was submitted on Monday, according to the Wall Street Journal. It's... and in a quote, Elon said, Elon Musk said, "It's time for OpenAI to return to open source safety-focused force for good it once was." Um, obviously, for people that don't know, Elon and Sam and others created OpenAI together as a nonprofit to battle, um... and I did an interview with them at the time about this, both of them... um, to battle the bigger companies and the, the pri- the privatization of AI. And so it was gonna be a nonprofit that was gonna focus on safety. At the time, Elon thought AI was going to kill all of us. He's changed his tune on that, obviously, over the years. Um, and, uh... and this is a really shocking news. What do you think, Scott? What's he up to? 'Cause he's not busy with other things, for goodness' sake.

Scott Galloway 13:08 I think this is a rich man's version of, "I'm invading Greenland." I, I think it's, um, a... uh, I think this is a distraction. So first off, if I... (sighs) and I gotta be clear, I, I gotta do more research here. But essentially, what they've done accidentally or unintentionally is by starting out as a nonprofit and then pretending that they would maintain some fidelity to the nonprofit once they smelled the hundreds of billions in potential shareholder value, they accidentally created a class shareholder company. And that is, they have essentially, uh, some shareholders, the nonprofit, that have a lot of governance rights. And the for-profit group, um, uh, is raising money at a $300 or $350 billion valuation, and Musk has found a way to try and create a cajun or, or according to him, essentially get control of, if you will, the voting shares by taking over the nonprofit side of OpenAI. Now what this really does is probably force them to pay more in their negotiations, I think since the last round, on what they're going to pay or what share of the equity the nonprofit gets and the for-profit. But be clear. This is based on the false premise... The statement that you just read that he's concerned and he want... Well, look at his investors. Uh, uh, WME and Baron Capital (laughs) aren't gonna put billions of dollars up to try and pre- you know, to try and protect the world from AI. That's not why they make investments. They would be, as soon as possible, their investors here of this $97.5 billion bid would be looking for a return on their capital. That's not... They're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. I think what this is, at the end of the day, is I think this is an attempt to slow him down. I think he sees this as a free call option. "I, I'm gonna fuck with a guy, slow him down. I want Grok or xAI to be, 'I don't like this guy. I've convinced a bunch of people to come in with me. And if for some reason we manage to get control of the voting class shares of the nonprofit, then good for me.'" What are your thoughts?

Kara Swisher 15:20 Well, I think that, you know, they've been trying to, to, to stop this, this move. And I believe the lawyer is the same lawyer, um, that's dueling with this, what made this offer. Um, but they've been trying to mess with the move to, to op-... and he's been suing OpenAI for a wide range of things, right? And it, it boils down to he wanted to take control of it. They said no. He huffed out, and they were like, "Goodbye," and didn't, you know, didn't chase him in any way. And so he had made a sort of bid to take over at, at the time, and they thought that they would be... he, he would be irresistible as a lover, I guess, of this company, and it didn't work. And so now he's been just furious ever since as it's become, uh, more profitable and that he has this sort of enmity towards, uh, Sam Altman that's really severe. I heard it myself. But at the s- at the time when they started it, it was s-... that was the idea of it. But of course, it was all for profits for all these people in the end. And so this will mess with their move to it. It'll cost them more. It'll be interesting to see, um, what, um, uh, what ha- what Microsoft has to say about this. Obviously, they're still negotiating over their equity stake in this thing. Um, it was $157 billion is the valuation they're looking at now, which is enormously high. Um, you know, when they started as a charity, maybe, uh, for a moment there, but the minute it got profitable, all of them were running for the for-profit subsidiary. And that's what... and they... and they... and, and OpenAI has emails from Musk talking about wanting to turn it into a for-profit. Um-

Scott Galloway 16:51 What if his entities, what if his entities aren't for profit? I mean-

Kara Swisher 16:54 That's correct.

Scott Galloway 16:55 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 16:55 He, he... they have emails saying it. Like, he's a liar. He's a liar about wanting this particular sentence or fabulist or whatever. He, he's just doing it for the for- performative nature of this. Um, but I think the, the question is what it will be valued at. And so he's just setting it higher, um, and, and, and who has the... uh, who would end up with this, this controlling stake in the new OpenAI? Now he could have waited to... until it did this and then tried to make a play for it publicly. But you're right. It's Joe, it's Joe Lonsdale from Palantir, Ari Emanuel, like literally the least, uh, charitable people I know, right? Like, uh-

Scott Galloway 17:34 Well let's, let's just say they're the most capitalist.

Kara Swisher 17:36 Capitalists.

Scott Galloway 17:36 They're not... They're probably charitable people, but no one's gonna put 100 ka- bill-

Kara Swisher 17:39 I mean, I mean, they don't want to do this-

Scott Galloway 17:40 ... billion up for fun.

Kara Swisher 17:40 ... for the good of humanity. That's all I'm saying.

Scott Galloway 17:42 Yeah, for humanity. 100%.

Kara Swisher 17:43 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 17:44 100%.

Kara Swisher 17:44 And, and so, you know, I think he is... he's filed all these legal complaints saying that they had betrayed their nonprofit mission at the same time, um, colluding with Microsoft. And this Dobrev was the one that tried to get the attorney generals, California to do this and do a fair market value. Um, uh, it's a, it's a, "Fuck you, Sam," kind of thing. And I think he was just... To come to the present, there was this announcement at the White House that Musk tried to shit all over this $500 billion on AI infrastructure in this joint venture called Stargate. Um, and, uh, he tried to, um-... you know, he tried to, he wasn't in on that, and this is something Trump announced at the White House with Sam Altman and, um, uh, Masayoshi Son. And so, he, he just doesn't want, he wants to block Sam Altman, at all, um, a- a- at all, and to say that they're doing it for the charity or fully compensated is just a ploy in order to get close to it, right? Um, and he said they didn't have the money. He's called Sam Altman a swindler. I mean, he called us deceitful and mean and cruel, but Sam Altman's a swindler. Um, so this is very typical of him, and it's l- largely 'cause Rock just hasn't caught up. As much as he's made these efforts to do so, um, you know, I think th- their, this, this group was on track to value this company at, which we think was too high too, um, at $157 billion. Anything else?

Scott Galloway 19:11 Well, first off, uh, let, let's, let's be fair. Sam Altman is not a swindler. The rest of that might be true, but the (laughs) , look, it, this is the same emotion as a really angry ex-spouse. You go through a contentious divorce. You give your half of the house to your spouse, and then the moment you leave, the house ends up going from a million in value to a billion. So you not only feel, you, you feel, you're so fucking angry that you left, you agreed to leave. He, (laughs) he gave up all of it. I mean, it just reeks of, you know, burn this village to save it-

Kara Swisher 19:49 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:49 ... angry, angry ex-spouse.

Kara Swisher 19:51 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:51 I'm just so upset at the bad deal I agreed to.

Kara Swisher 19:55 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 19:55 He left. They have those emails. He wanted out. He left, and now he's gonna-

Kara Swisher 19:59 He wanted to run it. He wanted it to become a for-profit. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 20:02 And it's, he's now a distant, distant player in the race, and he's got a bunch of people together who all wanna be around the, you know, the Elon magic of, and he does create a ton of shareholder value-

Kara Swisher 20:12 With, through chaos.

Scott Galloway 20:13 ... and he's like, "Look-"

Kara Swisher 20:13 Through chaos.

Scott Galloway 20:15 "... at a minimum, I'll slow, I'll slow them down. I'll create, I'll get in the news cycle again, and I'll pretend that it's something righteous." I mean, uh, yeah, I'd love to see Ari Emanuel, the guy from Baron Capital, to stand up and s- and tell us why you think AI needs to be a nonprofit, and you're not expecting a return on investment here?

Kara Swisher 20:34 Yeah, right, very fair.

Scott Galloway 20:35 You're willing to do this for the good of humanity?

Kara Swisher 20:37 Very fair. Actually, let me say, I made a mistake. This, th- this transition was part of a $6.6 billion funding round in October that valued it at 157.

Scott Galloway 20:45 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 20:45 These new talks-

Scott Galloway 20:47 300 now.

Kara Swisher 20:47 300 now. It's 400-

Scott Galloway 20:48 Yeah, that's right.

Kara Swisher 20:48 ... uh, $40 billion in a new funding round. Um, SoftBank would lead the round in, in discussions to invest between 15 and 25 billion. This is gonna just, and this Stargate thing, separately, is raising money, and Sam's working on a chip, also a very manic entrepreneur, by the way, as is Elon. Um, and they're trying to raise billions for Stargate. Um, this puts uncertainty into it, which is exactly what he's trying to do. He's trying to put uncertainty into a deal because they didn't want him, or they didn't, they, they declined his kind offer to own the place, right? Like, you know, he's like that-

Scott Galloway 21:25 Yeah, but I-

Kara Swisher 21:25 Go ahead, sorry.

Scott Galloway 21:27 I, I think what's gonna happen here though is I think the two people they're gonna rally around Altman are gonna be arguably the mo- th- one of the more powerful people in tech here and one of the grownups, Satya Nadella and the deep pocket at Masayoshi Son. I think this is gonna thrust Sam further into their embrace, and I think they're gonna rally around Sam, 'cause here's the thing around Musk. If you're already rich, you don't wanna put up with this guy (laughs) . You don't want him anywhere. Do you think Satya Nadella wants to go to board meetings with Elon Musk (laughs) ? It, these guys, it, they, he, it'll create a distraction, but you're gonna see, I think, Satya, Microsoft, and Masayoshi Son will see this as a, an opportunity to, to kinda bear hug Altman. But Altman, in my, in my view, at the end of the day, the most successful people over the long term put themselves in a room full of opportunities 'cause they make a lot of allies. And I have been wrong so far, but one of these people has largely been making allies, and another one of them has been making people a lot of money, but has been making a lot of enemies.

Kara Swisher 22:33 Mm-hmm. That's a fair point.

Scott Galloway 22:35 And I think that, I think that is gonna come, I, I think that's gonna come home to roost here.

Kara Swisher 22:39 Well, we'll see. What's interesting, it just reminds me, do you ever (laughs) , you know my favorite movie is the original Patrick Swayze Roadhouse? Do you know that?

Scott Galloway 22:45 You're kidding me.

Kara Swisher 22:47 Roadhouse. Yeah. Anyway, Swayze was in it, and he plays Dalton, and, you know, he's trying to save a town essentially. Uh, Jake Gyllenhaal made a terrible version and made me wanna cry afterwards, but there's a guy, Ben Gazzara plays a guy named Brad Wesley. He wants to own the whole town, including this shitty bar, right? Like, by the way, OpenAI is not a shitty bar. And there's questions around after, after DeepSeak, like, is it too overvalued, all of these companies, right? But anyway, Ben Gazzara has to own everything, including this shitty bar, and that's what... Elon reminds me of Brad Wesley. It didn't end well for Brad Wesley in that movie, by the way.

Scott Galloway 23:20 All I remember is Kelly Lynch.

Kara Swisher 23:22 Kelly Lynch, that's right, Dr. Elizabeth Clay. I know this whole movie so well. So, um, getting out of the Roadhouse thing, it's like, can you, aren't you busy ruining the government over here? You wanna come and fuck with this guy? This is the level of this guy's energy, I will say, energy and manic nature, that he, that nobody gets... Like, he just can't stop. It's like-

Scott Galloway 23:45 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 23:45 ... it's demented at this point. This is-

Scott Galloway 23:47 I think-

Kara Swisher 23:47 ... a demented effort. I, I don't know.

Scott Galloway 23:50 But he's the ultimate vendor's dream because he says to these enormous law firms of incredibly talented smart people and bankers, he has unlimited funds, and this, again, goes to the notion that power corrupts and absolute power absolutely corrupts, and people just shouldn't have this much money. He can say to all of his bankers and all of his lawyers and the smartest people in the services industry, "Okay, I got 10 minutes. Here's your directive. Fuck with Sam Altman. Come back with a dozen ideas," and somebody came back and said, "Well, actually, the nonprofit has governance rights, so we could make a bid for the non, the nonprofit." And he says to the banker, "Get on it."... uh, I don't... Uh, I- I think the directive here was pretty simple, fuck with these guys.

Kara Swisher 24:32 Okay, because the best part of this is the relationship between Sam Altman and, uh, Elon Musk, I just wanna read the tweet that Sam Altman had, uh, in response, "No thank you, but we will buy Twitter for $9.74 billion if you want." All right, we have to move on and talk about the Super Bowl. The Philadelphia

Kara Swisher 24:50 Eagles won the Super Bowl, yay. I'm from Philly, you know, I was born there. The president became the first president to attend the Super Bowl and had a totally normal reaction afterwards, posting on Truth Social, "The only one who had a tougher night than the Kansas City Chiefs was Taylor Swift, who got booed out of the stadium. MAGA is very unforgiving!" Actually, Donald, this was kind of a big, like, fuck you by, uh, many people at the, at the event. The ads were star-studded with appearances by Ben Affleck, David Beckham, Glen Powell, and Billy Crystal. B- Brad Pitt did a long... A big, long ad for the NFL, which was a little woke there. I mean, OpenAI made its Super Bowl debut with a 60-second, $14 million spot. Obviously, Kendrick Lamar ruled the fucking school, and he just... Eh, eh, someone said, you know, he should get the Nobel Hate Prize 'cause he did such a beautiful, artful job of saying fuck you to the Trump Administration. Uh, but I just thought it was beautiful. I thought this was amazing, and I thought it was artful and beautiful. Um, did you? What did you think?

Scott Galloway 25:48 Oh, I got none of that, so I, um, I wasn't gonna watch the Super Bowl. I mean, the idea of... I mean, it really is the ultimate expression-

Kara Swisher 25:55 I didn't watch it. I watched it in pieces, but go ahead. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 25:59 It really... There couldn't be anything more American than a bunch of boner pill ads and opioid induced medication ads while we watch young, beautiful men get CTE. I mean, it really is America, but instead of, like, Roman Colosseum and lions, we have Taylor Swift. And I promised myself I wasn't gonna watch, and then my 14-year-old goes, "Dad, do you wanna watch the Super Bowl?" And I'm like, "Yeah, of course I do."

Kara Swisher 26:21 Yeah, of course, yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:21 I mean, so a chance to hang out-

Kara Swisher 26:23 So you- so you heated up the nachos and got to it, okay.

Scott Galloway 26:25 Yeah, but it started at 11:30 PM, so my son-

Kara Swisher 26:27 What did you eat?

Scott Galloway 26:27 ... be clear-

Kara Swisher 26:28 Set the scene for me, what did you eat?

Scott Galloway 26:30 We- we had milk and oatmeal chocolate chip cookies.

Kara Swisher 26:33 Oh, all right, okay, that's kind of dull.

Scott Galloway 26:35 Um... I know, that is kinda dull, isn't it? And then... But, of course, it was... My 14-year-old didn't want to hang around with his dad and watch football, he wanted to stay up till 2:00 in the morning. I thought Kendrick Lamar was incredibly boring.

Kara Swisher 26:46 Really? I loved him.

Scott Galloway 26:46 I- I didn't think it was a good performance at all.

Kara Swisher 26:48 I loved him.

Scott Galloway 26:48 But I realize I've kinda aged out of that shit.

Kara Swisher 26:50 You have aged out.

Scott Galloway 26:50 I don't know.

Kara Swisher 26:51 Yeah, it was great.

Scott Galloway 26:52 But the... My favorite, though, hands down, though, there was... Uh, I- I mean, the ads that occasionally really move you, there was this wonderful ad, and I don't know if you saw this, but it was of a man sitting at the Super Bowl, and he had an empty seat next to him. And, uh, someone leans over and asks him, "Why is it there's an empty seat?" And he says that he bought two seats for him and his wife, but his wife, unfortunately, had recently passed. And then the guy goes, "Well, I'm so sorry, why... Why, uh, did you not bring someone else from your family?" And he responds, "They're all at the funeral." (laughs) I love that.

Kara Swisher 27:28 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 27:28 I love that.

Kara Swisher 27:29 All right, uh, moving

Kara Swisher 27:30 on. Amazon shares are down 2.5% in the last five days after a mixed earnings report. The company reported better than expected earnings and revenue, but told investors to expect slowing growth ahead. Based on Amazon's estimates, g- uh, first quarter revenue growth could be the slowest growth on record for the company. On the upside, revenue rose 10% and net income almost doubled, thanks to a cost-cutting campaign. There's only so much you can cut, I guess. Um, he- it's set to pass Walmart in revenue the first time. What's up with this, S- Scott? This is an area you've... Is it- is it- is it the effect of Shein and Temu, or- or what's going on here?

Scott Galloway 28:02 I don't think so. I think investors now consider Amazon as essentially a cloud company with a retail unit. And their cloud division actually missed estimates by about $100 million, and even though, um, even though the growth was 19% to $29 billion. Keep in mind that while A- AWS represents just 15% of Amazon's revenue, it's responsible for the majority of its operating profit. So as- as AWS goes now-

Kara Swisher 28:29 Which CEO Andy Jassy used to run, let's just keep... Used to run before he was-

Scott Galloway 28:33 And- and is the reason he's the CEO.

Kara Swisher 28:34 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 28:35 Because essentially, as AWS goes, so does Amazon now. And so the analysts and shareholders are essentially, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, retail, fine, fine, fine. Amazon Prime Video, yeah, whatever. What's happening with AWS?" I- I initially thought that the... I've said this in my predictions, like, two or three years ago, that Amazon would eventually spin AWS and AWS would be the most valuable company in the world-

Kara Swisher 29:01 They didn't.

Scott Galloway 29:02 ... in five or seven years, and they didn't.

Kara Swisher 29:03 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 29:04 Another one wrong.

Kara Swisher 29:05 Well, you know-

Scott Galloway 29:06 Another one wrong.

Kara Swisher 29:06 ... I asked Andy about that during an interview, and he said they absolutely are not going to, and I- I believed him at the time, but, you know.

Scott Galloway 29:12 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 29:12 And I thought they should've.

Scott Galloway 29:13 They-

Kara Swisher 29:13 I thought they sh-

Scott Galloway 29:13 They never... They never... They're absolutely not until they do, but anyways.

Kara Swisher 29:18 I know, but I thought they should've.

Scott Galloway 29:19 You asked what-

Kara Swisher 29:19 I thought they should've, like you did.

Scott Galloway 29:21 But they... Essentially, Amazon's firing on all cylinders, but the fact that they- they say they were capacity constrained. Um, the miss was enough to scare investors though, because it's so important in terms of their margin. AWS's operating profit margin was 37% and the rest of Amazon, get this, is just 7%. So it- it is really... That's the tail wagging the dog here. Amazon is a cloud company with a retail division.

Kara Swisher 29:48 Yeah. So what happens? What- what does an investor do? Should they spin it off? Uh, it would really be a problem. You know- you know, you always talk about shitcos versus... This is not a shitco, but it's a version of that, right? If they take the higher growth one and spin it off, is it still too... Is it too late to do so? Would they ever do it?

Scott Galloway 30:05 Well, I... Look, I've advocated for a long time that if you took Amazon, Apple, and Alphabet, and Facebook, or Meta, and you turned them into 15 companies, you'd end up with an aggregate that within 24 months, these 15 companies would be worth much more than the original four. That breakup was a bad idea, said no one ever. Breakups are one of the few things in history where the government intervention always works. Its shareholders win, innovation wins. The reason... Do you think... Let me ask you this. Do you think...... uh, if, if Google had been a standalone unit-

Kara Swisher 30:40 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 30:41 ... or if, if Google Cloud had been a standalone unit-

Kara Swisher 30:44 Or small.

Scott Galloway 30:45 ... or Google AI had been a standalone unit-

Kara Swisher 30:47 Or small.

Scott Galloway 30:47 ... do you think they would have stopped... Do you think they would have most likely had an AI application sooner?

Kara Swisher 30:54 Much sooner.

Scott Galloway 30:54 But they don't. They wanna, they wanna make sure they don't fuck with the tollbooth known as search.

Kara Swisher 30:58 Yeah, they should just-

Scott Galloway 30:59 So shareholders-

Kara Swisher 31:00 ... break them up.

Scott Galloway 31:01 Shareholders win, consumers win because it creates more competition. You know who wins really big is the employees, because they have more people bidding and trying to-

Kara Swisher 31:08 Right, and they are more innovative.

Scott Galloway 31:09 ... run their time and everything.

Kara Swisher 31:09 You know who doesn't wanna, m- do that? People who love to just keep their little groups together, and then also they wanna merge w- to get bigger.

Scott Galloway 31:16 The only people, the only people that really benefit are the person who wants to sit on the Iron Throne of all seven, seven realms, not just Westeros. And unfortunately, because we do have shareholder companies, they usually, they usually get to make the decision. But if you look at it from a pure shareholder standpoint, I would argue that you'd wanna break them up. But in terms of... I think Amazon is the kinda company... My, my biggest holdings for the last 10 years have been Amazon and Apple. And even when Apple gets to 34 times earnings, which is in, quite frankly, kind of crazy town, the fact that it's growing 2% a year and it's growing... it has a P/E multiple of 34 versus its historical average of, like, 18 or 19, you should probably sell. But at the end of the day, these are the kinda companies that you just sorta hold forever, um, because they just continue-

Kara Swisher 32:02 So-

Scott Galloway 32:03 ... to innovate.

Kara Swisher 32:03 ... could you imagine them breaking it off? Or-

Scott Galloway 32:06 Not in this environment.

Kara Swisher 32:07 Not in this environment.

Scott Galloway 32:08 No, no, no. Not with the, not with, with Cantor and Khan gone. The, the, you're gonna see... These guys are all telling their bankers to sharpen their pencils and actually go acquire and gobble up more stuff now.

Kara Swisher 32:20 It was interesting. I interviewed a, a, a very, uh, conservative, uh, economist, Orrin Kast today, among others, and he was like... I was like, "You, you'd be for mergers?" He's like, "No, I don't think... M- mergers for whatever? No, thank you." Like, you know what I mean? Like, because they aren't necessarily the best thing for, for economic growth. They don't necessarily promote it. It just promotes bigger companies. Uh, and, and then they fall into the crosshairs of regulators also, and they spend a lot of time doing that. Um, anyway, I agree. They should have been... They should break themselves up, that you should always break yourself up.

Scott Galloway 32:50 Well, the, just, just to talk about concentration of power, my friend Andy Cohen at JP Morgan pointed something out. This blew my mind. And I said for a while-

Kara Swisher 32:56 Not the guy from, from the, the Housewives series? That's not your friend?

Scott Galloway 33:00 Oh, no, not Anderson's friend. No, Andy, Andy is, like, the most likable guy in the world. He literally sh- is exactly in the seat he should be, and that is he is managing tens of billions of dollars for high-net-worth families. And he's just the most likable guy in the world, and he's also very smart. Nice man. Anyways, he said something that just blew my mind. I, of course, was like, doing my party trick and throwing out stats, and I said that the US equity market now was 50% of the total value of all equities globally. And he said, "No, it's actually, if you add in debt, corporate debt, America represents 70% of, of all value globally." So if you think about it, would you rather own the world... Would you rather own America for $70, or if you could own everything but America for $30, which would you pick? And what that says to me is that America is overvalued. And not only is America overvalued, it's really... The whole world is vulnerable because there are 10 stocks that represent $28 to $33% of the value, meaning that somewhere between one in six and one in five dollars globally is dependent upon a small number of companies. And if Amazon and other folks show any slowdown-

Kara Swisher 34:05 I wonder if there's an AI meltdown.

Scott Galloway 34:05 ... in AI or cloud... Oh, my God (laughs) .

Kara Swisher 34:07 Yeah, if there's an AI meltdown. This-

Scott Galloway 34:09 That-

Kara Swisher 34:09 These economists noted that, you know-

Scott Galloway 34:11 That's gonna be an echo felt around the world really severely.

Kara Swisher 34:13 Yeah. Watch, we're gonna have to bailout the tech bros at some point. Anyway, um, all right, we'll see. Let's go on a quick break, and when we come back, Trump's latest tariffs, speaking of bailing out people, and Dozier's latest targets. Scott, we're back. President Trump is touting his latest tariff plan after hitting pause on those Canada and Mexico tariffs, which were such a joke, such a ridiculous fucking joke. Trump now says he plans to impose 25% tariffs on imports of steel and aluminum, will apply to everybody, including Canada and Mexico. Reciprocal tariffs on US trading partners are also reportedly in the mix this week. I'll note, we're recording on Monday morning. Do... Uh, I mean, whether he's gonna follow through on it is not true. Having just interviewed three economists, none of them think these are a very good idea. One of them thought tariffs sometimes are a good negotiating tactic, um, and sometimes when they're explicit in certain areas, very, uh, k- surgically done, they're a good idea. This was the conservative one. The others thought this was just atta- attacks on people, and none of them ever happen, right? And what a stupid way to, um... You're trying to... One of them, uh, Mariana, uh, uh, Mas- uh, Mascato was saying that you have to focus in on production subsidies over tariffs, like to help companies, to help industries, and be very specific about it, versus tariffs which is just a, a blunt instrument that is about the past. Anyway, um, talk about these? This seems like... This is just him more air blowing from this fella that upsets markets.

Scott Galloway 35:40 World leaders are learning how to deal with him, and that is emulsify him by making some token gestures. Uh, basically Claudia Sheinbaum and Trudeau said, "All right, I'll tell you what. We'll do this..." And they were already doing it. And then he walks it back.

Kara Swisher 35:54 And also, there wasn't that much fentanyl coming over the border from Canada. It's so ridiculous. Like, and linking it to things that have nothing to do with economics are ridiculous, right?

Scott Galloway 36:01 But they're basically, they're basically kinda managing him. But, but our presence across the world is a function of leverage and relationships. And if you said to your husband, "You're really vulnerable right now. Whatever, you're out of work, and I'm gonna leave you unless you do the following things," and you're really like... H- h- h- he or your partner might be so scared and so upset and so vulnerable they say, "Okay, you're bigger than me or more important than me. I agree." But what does that do to the long-term relationship? Th- this is just so short, so shortsighted, and it's also... The, the hint or the insight here, I think, is the following.The adult in the administration here is the 10-year bond in the stock market and the one percent who Trump listens to, corporations and very, very wealthy people. And what happened here was the following. They called him and said, "This is all cute, but you realize, you know, X, Y, Z company, we're gonna lose 20% of our sales overnight, and you're probably gonna see gas spike, and you're gonna see the 10-year bond." And he pretends that he has a victory, and he walks it back. And I think the lesson here for Democrats is the following. I think that we are now at a point where because they control all three branches of government, and we really can't do anything through our institutions in sending congresspeople to wave their cane at the building of the Department of Education, that's just not an effective strategy optically.

Kara Swisher 37:22 Is that an age remark? Go ahead, sorry.

Scott Galloway 37:25 Oh, fuck. Put a third of them on a fucking ice flow.

Kara Swisher 37:27 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 37:27 I've had it. I've had it.

Kara Swisher 37:28 Just the Democrats, or all of them?

Scott Galloway 37:29 It literally-

Kara Swisher 37:30 All of them?

Scott Galloway 37:30 It literally looks like-

Kara Swisher 37:31 Keep bipartisan if you're gonna do ice flow.

Scott Galloway 37:33 It looks like a seniors' home where they've canceled water aerobics at this point.

Kara Swisher 37:36 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 37:36 That's how, that's how effective and outraged, they, Charles Schumer, "We'll win!" Oh, okay. Thanks. That feels better, Chuck. Anyways, these people are so fucking patheti-... Oh, no, it's, "They've switched Jell-O night to Tuesdays."

Kara Swisher 37:51 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 37:51 Rise up, America! My God. Anyways, uh, uh, this is the strategy.

Kara Swisher 37:58 Oh, my God. This wasn't so grand.

Scott Galloway 37:58 This is-

Kara Swisher 37:59 I shouldn't laugh, but it's funny. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 38:01 This is the strategy.

Kara Swisher 38:02 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 38:03 Fine. You want mutually assured destruction? We are not gonna approve an increase in the debt limit, and we're gonna have a failed Treasury auction. And the 90, the one percent who own 90% of the stocks, you're gonna start getting calls from them. You wanna go gangster? Let's go gangster. Because the bottom line is, when it comes to economics, the tariffs? You know what Trump did?

Kara Swisher 38:24 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 38:24 He blinked.

Kara Swisher 38:25 He did.

Scott Galloway 38:26 Canada and Mexico said-

Kara Swisher 38:27 Doesn't just blink. It's all such nonsense. It's not even blinking. It's, like, such a-

Scott Galloway 38:30 But there's a lesson here.

Kara Swisher 38:31 ... empathy.

Scott Galloway 38:31 This is where we have leverage. Their leverage is around the bond market and a failed Treasury auction. And I recognize this could set off something really ugly, but before it sets it off, the people he cares about, corporations, which have the lowest tax z- rates since 1939, and the one percent, who have garnered an extraordinary amount of spoils, are gonna call him and say, "You realize the Democrats are gonna shut down... You're gonna be the first president that has a failed Treasury auction."

Kara Swisher 38:55 Right.

Scott Galloway 38:56 That is our leverage. Enough of this, enough of this screaming into TikTok. And, uh, this is where we have leverage, and this is where we should go.

Kara Swisher 39:05 Yep. In- it's

Kara Swisher 39:06 interesting.

Scott Galloway 39:06 Anyways.

Kara Swisher 39:06 So, um, speaking of which, um, Elon's power route continues, with Doge worming itself into at least 15 government agencies. Of course he's gonna do this. Trump says he's happy about things are going. He sang Elon's praises and talked about Doge's next targets in the Super Bowl interview with Fox News' Bret Baier. Let's listen.

Donald Trump 39:23 And I've had a great help with Elon Musk, who's been terrific. Baier: Bottom line, you say you trust him. Trust Elon? Oh, he's not gaining anything. In fact, I wonder how he can devote the time to it. He's so into it. But I told him do that. Then I'm gonna tell him very soon, like maybe in 24 hours, to go check the Department of Education. He's gonna find the same thing. Then I'm gonna go, go to the military. Let's check the military. We're gonna find billions, hundreds of billions of dollars of fraud and abuse.

Kara Swisher 39:52 This is not new stuff this man is finding at all. Um, and it's very small in comparison to most stuff.

Scott Galloway 39:57 Well, to be fair, the-

Kara Swisher 39:58 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 39:58 ... the condoms going to Gaza, until we found out-

Kara Swisher 40:01 Yes.

Scott Galloway 40:01 ... it was condoms going to Gaza, Mozambique-

Kara Swisher 40:03 It-

Scott Galloway 40:03 ... for AIDS prevention. (laughs) Not to-

Kara Swisher 40:05 Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's, it's fucking...

Scott Galloway 40:05 Not to Hamas.

Kara Swisher 40:06 They lie about every... Listen.

Scott Galloway 40:07 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 40:07 They open their mouths, and they lie. Um, the fe-... They, they're always trying to find, like, the, the gold toilet seat. That's what they're always... You know, like, "Oh, it's a $600 toilet seat." That's what they're looking for. But the federal judge temporarily blocked Doge's access to the Treasury Department payment system over the weekend, citing risk of irreparable harm, though it's unclear when or if Doge employees will comply with that order. Com-... We'll talk about compliance. We're gonna get into that strategy with the courts after the break. But thoughts on the latest Doge move is the Consumer Finance Protection Board, which has returned money to the Treasury, uh, by a lot, uh, temporarily closed its offices and suspended its services. And they're pushing to rapidly develop a custom AI chatbot to analyze government data, according to Wired. And Doge employees have also fed sensitive data from the Education Department into AI software to probe the agency's programs and spending, according to the Washington Post. This has all been done before. It's just very performative. Um, I think it's just to gain access to the data and who knows what. I mean, uh, you, you don't necessarily have to assume they're nefarious, but why not? Why not just go, start with nefarious and work your way down from there? Um, your thoughts?

Scott Galloway 41:13 I think it's war, and I think that unfortunately we're on the wrong side of it. And we thought we built these impenetrable institutions, these Maginot Lines, and they just dropped, the Nazis just dropped paratroopers behind this impenetrable border called the Maginot Line. And I think we're on the Democrats, the Panzer tanks have rolled in, and we're trying to fight them on horseback. We shouldn't be talking about what's outrageous about this or what's wrong about it. We should be saying the following. If a group of talented engineers can come in and cut off payments to veterans, cut off payments to children in low-income areas, then once we're in power, I wonder if we could find some really intelligent young people to cut off payments to Starlink. Overnight. Overnight. We think, we think, by the way, we're wondering if space is sovereign territory and that you're trespassing and we should take control of your 51 satellites. And we have some really talented people, uh, from Google and from different tech companies that we think could go in and shut down Starlink and start asking questions the next day. And find it... And let's find out if it... Maybe it's not legal. Let's find out. So, i- instead of, like, screaming into fucking TikTok or on MSNBC...... you, if you can do this, well, we're gonna come up with some creative ideas about maybe we could do the same thing.

Kara Swisher 42:28 Right.

Scott Galloway 42:28 Maybe-

Kara Swisher 42:28 Unfortunately, that's where it leads, right? It leads to this idea of... Now, now, listen, presidents have been trying to expand their power, uh, for, for a long, long time, right? This is not a new trend, and it's bipartisan, by the way. Um, but this is, this is sort of... What's interesting to me is how performative it is, and then when you call him out on it, they're like, "How dare you call us out?" But I'm like, they're literally going jazz hands all over the place and, and then making these ridiculous statements about cost savings when they're saving very little. It's not strategic. It's not legal. They're not doing it with Congress. And I understand the need to a little shock and awe in that regard. I'm not against that. I do think the way they're doing it is just so deleterious to what they're trying to accomplish, which is, you know, they put a tiny little bit, "We wanna s- make the government more, more efficient." No shit, Sherlock. So do the rest of us, right? We wanna make the government more efficient. But to, to like, to do it in this way is purposely creating havoc and purposely against what you're supposed to do to actually save money. And they're gonna find very little savings by doing this. The fact that he mentioned military was my, I was like, "Oh, dear, you're gonna go over that, over in that rail?" Because they're, the only thing... You know, I w- I was just interviewing these economists today, and Paul Krugman correctly said the United States is an insurance company with a military, um, 'cause most of the spending is Medicare, Medicaid, um, and things like that or the military. So, if you're going for the Medicare, medi- where the real money is, good fucking luck on that one. And if you notice, they're not. So, the fact that he mentioned military was really interesting to me, and again, probably full of fraud and full of problems, but not in the, in the way that they're talking about in any way, I don't think.

Scott Galloway 44:15 Okay. So, something I've struggled with my entire career is the difference between, um, being right and being effective, and I think the majority of the Democratic Party and the majority of the media talking about some of the points you've just referenced I th- are right. I wanna move to the effective part of the conversation, and, and this is how I think we become effective. If you wanna hurt Trump or stop him, you gotta stop Musk. And if you wanna stop Musk, you need to go after the surface area of attack, and it's one thing. It's money. It's already happening in Europe, right? EV sales, EV sales were, you know, are, are down-

Kara Swisher 44:55 No, they were up a little bit. His were down, right?

Scott Galloway 44:58 N- No, EV sales in Europe are down-

Kara Swisher 44:59 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 44:59 ... um, 6%, but they're down, like, 20 to 40% across France and different nations in, uh, Europe.

Kara Swisher 45:07 It was like 69% in Germany, or that's what you were saying.

Scott Galloway 45:10 E- e- they're off, they're off dramatically. Um, should you be signing up for T-Mobile right now? Should veterans be communicating to their colleagues or institutions or people in areas affected by this, should they be saying, "T-Mobile, I'm not down with you partnering with Elon Musk at Starlink?" Should you be flying United Airlines, which just announced a big deal with Starlink? Should you... Uh, and I, I, I'm just speaking for a friend here, but what if every time you get an Uber... Every time I get an Uber, if it pulls up, if it says Tesla Model S, I cancel and I put in the notes, "I will not ride in a Tesla."

Kara Swisher 45:45 Yeah. They should have-

Scott Galloway 45:45 At some point-

Kara Swisher 45:46 ... a thing like that. Should be able to choose-

Scott Galloway 45:48 But my point is-

Kara Swisher 45:49 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 45:49 ... I'm done being right.

Kara Swisher 45:50 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 45:50 Let's be effective.

Kara Swisher 45:51 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 45:52 And, and this is about going after... One-third of Musk's wealth was, um, not only created by these democratic institutions and rule of law, uh, which he has no fidelity to, so fine, let's take some of it back. But trying to talk about how outrageous this is and whether it's illegal or not legal, let's go after... All these guys care about, they care about power, and they care about money. Let's move from the right part of the program to the effective part of the program.

Kara Swisher 46:22 Well, here's the only problem. Look, its shares were down very low for a while, in the low, in the low 200s. Now they're, you know, they, they peaked right around Trump's election time at 400 and some, and now they're slowly ticking down. They're at 358. They're still enormously high, right? It's 175 PE ratio. Are you craz- Like, it's crazy. Um, and, and the stock is fa-

Scott Galloway 46:47 But that's the opportunity.

Kara Swisher 46:48 Right. The stock is falling, but it's not so... Um, you know, I think, I definitely think you should focus on Musk and how much money he's making out of this and how he's... You know, if, if he had, he had spent some money against USAID, I don't know who paid for that. If it was the American taxpayer, it was a lot of money ill-spent attacking USAID. If he pai- spent his own money, he could knock himself the fuck out. Like-

Scott Galloway 47:11 I don't know.

Kara Swisher 47:11 Uh-

Scott Galloway 47:11 T-mo- T-Mobile subscribers-

Kara Swisher 47:13 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 47:13 ... do you want to work with a guy who's giving Nazi salutes?

Kara Swisher 47:16 Right. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. W- what else? It, I don't think it's wrong to, uh, to st- try to p- push back the legal, legally. I think that's quite smart what you're talking about.

Scott Galloway 47:24 That's happening.

Kara Swisher 47:25 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 47:25 That's happening.

Kara Swisher 47:26 Right.

Scott Galloway 47:26 The only way you get either of these guys to notice, in my view, is you go after their money.

Kara Swisher 47:32 W- and what about the access to data? Do you... I mean, everyone, of course, thinks he's, you know, we're in the middle of a Bond movie where the villains were, were, um, you know, uh, they're winning the whole, the whole nine yards of it. How do you feel about the data part of that?

Scott Galloway 47:46 What i- but, uh, I ask this sincerely, what is, wh- what is the concern? I, I understand that we don't want to hand over our data to this individual. I've seen some con- no, I don't wanna call it conspiracy theory, but theories that the h- the end game here is to get data to train his AI models, but I don't fully understand why people perceive, other than just a pure violation of peoples' privacy in getting access to your data and what they could do with that data... I mean if there w- if he, if he, if these people who have access to all of our (laughs) information truly think we are cruel and deceitful people, that's probably not... You know, that's not that comforting.... but what is, what is the fear or the concern beyond just the circumvention of Demo, the democratic and constitutional norms? (laughs)

Kara Swisher 48:28 Well, I think it, it's, it's opening it up, creating a real, um, a real danger of co- in terms of opening it up. Um, let me just, let me just read you, someone who knows, I was talking about CISA. They were j- he was making cuts to CISA, which has always been in his crosshairs, Trump's crosshairs. "Elon eliminated the ability to track disinformation on Twitter. Zuck eliminated it for Meta. Stanford cut the Samos Rene, uh, Project. Pam Bondi just eliminated the FBI task force that tracked foreign influence campaigns, and now this at CISA. All this when disinformation is now being sp- uh, spouted, uh, spouted to AI speeds. It's a gift to, uh, Putin and Xi. On CISA in particular, they've been in Trump's crosshairs since 2020." Um, it's barely getting... you know, it's not much there's a cut, but still on the, uh, anyone's left. But what they're saying is, um, the... who can pay to track disinformation and do legal takeouts were... w- and everyone else, the electorate were just fucked. And so, you know, this is someone who, who's been covering this, is that we are very exposed, and also allowing the Chinese and Russians incredible ac- possible access to sensitive data. E- every single one of these researchers I talk to is like, "Are you kidding? This is terrifying. We just opened the gates. Like, we've opened the gates." So, that's the...

Scott Galloway 49:44 I- i- i- this just feels... I, I, I think w- you know, I don't know what the definition, uh, the... you know, if you're talking about gluttony. I think America, unfortunately, is paying the price for so much security. I don't think they (laughs) realize how many people, um, are, do not wish us well around the world, and that they're fairly sophisticated, and they understand how to use data and how to weaponize it. And, and how many people work, you know, so hard and take huge risks to try and protect us, and that a lot of that effort, uh, decades of skill, effort, you know, sacrifices, being just kinda thrown out the window. I mean, it, it just goes to these, these very basics. The biggest takers and the people most upset and the people who wanna tear down the government are the people benefiting the most from these programs. I mean, the reality is, Kara, is, your and my life, it's not gonna change that much. I mean, I, I, I think there's some-

Kara Swisher 50:36 I, I'm concerned about the Russians and the Chinese. I think w- that, that equally affects all of us, no matter what economic bracket you're in, of them having this information.

Scott Galloway 50:43 Uh, you know what, though? I, I, I get that, but if America's... I mean, we're now in an economic weight class where we can move to Milan or so- I- this... it just doesn't make... it's just so incredible that the people who seem to be most... it's like they're burning their own house down. Look at the regions that were so deep red. They're the ones that, that, that benefit the most from these programs. So, my attitude is, okay, you want your Medicaid, you don't, you want, you don't want your insulin? (laughs) You don't want your kid, uh, you don't want a school in your, you know, in that rural town mandated by the federal government? Uh, you don't want your uncle in Veteran Affairs? I mean, f- fine. Okay. Here's the country you wanted.

Kara Swisher 51:25 I, I agree with you, but at the same time, I do think this stuff out in the wild, it's like someone just opened all the nuclear things and just... l- like, "We need to clean up this nuclear stuff and just open them," I just think puts us, it literally puts us in a Bond villain movie situation, I think. All right. Uh, let's go on a quick break. More on Elon and Trump's strategy to target courts. Not just Elon, also J.D. Vance.

Kara Swisher 51:48 Scott, we're back. As Donald Trump and others continue to push their agenda, the only thing standing in their way appears to be the courts for now. Federal judges have halted parts of Trump's executive order blitz, including, uh, the federal spending freeze, worker buyouts, and DOJ's access to the payment system, as we mentioned earlier. But, uh, everyone's... they're attacking the judiciary. Um, first, uh, Musk, uh, called for the impeachment of a judge who ruled against DOJ. He's also proposing that the worst 1% of appointed judges be fired every year. Sorry, Aileen Cannon, you're going. Um, uh, what are you... this undermined the strategy was, was especially by J.D. Vance. He, he put one out that got enormous attention, um, and I think it's a coordinated effort. He posted over the weekend that judges aren't allowed to control the executive's legitimate power, which of course everyone was like, "Did you go to Yale Law School?" 'Cause it doesn't sound like it was.

Scott Galloway 52:39 Of course they are.

Kara Swisher 52:39 Yeah. Um, Trump administration lawyers also filed a motion saying DOJ's ruling impinges, uh, on the president's absolute powers of the executive branch, w- which, uh, of course they're gonna do. But their move to the, uh, undermine the judiciary portion of the show, I think. Um, and the cases will likely get appealed. Some will go to the Supreme Court. Um, we'll see where that goes. But remember, after the immunity decision last year, Justice Sotomayor wrote, "The president is now king above the law." So, um, and even if the courts do rule against Trump, I'm gonna give you the whole package, enforcement will be up to the DOJ, which he controls. The DOJ, through the U.S. Marshals Service, controls that. So, a lot of my, um, uh, legal people say there's no enforcement mechanism for any of this stuff, and if he resists, it's... he can just resist. He can resist it legally, too. Um, so, and, and it takes a while for things to, to shake out in that regard, because the judiciary does not have enforcement powers.

Scott Galloway 53:37 I think it's Ruth, Ruth Ben-Ghiat, is that her name?

Kara Swisher 53:40 Ben-Ghiat, mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 53:41 Uh, she summarized it. I, I think it was her. If it was another historian, I'm sure I'll hear about it. But she said most democracies are ins- you know, are, are driven institutionally, that at the end of the day, the courts rule. And then kind of the slow burn to fascism or a dictatorship is you move to a paternalistic model, and that's the right term. It's, it's f- uh, this fi- where you decide this guy knows better than everybody else. And I... we kind of... you get the government you deserve, and that is, this guy was, was freely and fairly elected by a country that decided it's okay to be a convicted felon. And so, he now believes, and he has the incentive structure and the results to show it...... that he can be elected president, despite being a convicted felon, so why on earth would he not believe, and others who support him not believe that he's above the law? That's, America basically said, "Okay, he's above the law, and he gets to make these decisions now."

Kara Swisher 54:37 Well, the Supreme Court said that, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 54:40 Well, eh, but, but-

Kara Swisher 54:42 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:42 ... h- h- haven't we given him all these green lights to say-

Kara Swisher 54:46 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 54:46 ... "Yeah, just break the law. Just, it's okay."

Kara Swisher 54:48 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:48 "Just move, move it. Don't go around institutions. Don't, you know, the law no longer applies to you." We're moving to this paternalistic, uh, government structure that is kind of, you know, m- more, more tightly associated with dictatorships than democracies.

Kara Swisher 55:04 Yeah, I think it's problematic. I think the issue that they don't have enforcement of it... If a, if a group of people is willing to break laws and then break rulings against their activities, there is nowhere to go, right? And then if, I, I mean the, the place to go is people protest, right? That's the next step. A- and of course, he could declare martial law, which is a ne- you know what I mean? If we protest even slightly, maybe he'll say it's martial law. So it really does, it really does, you know, put it into stark relief how fragile our systems are in ways that I think we don't think about. I, let me just read something someone who, who I really respect wrote me, it was pretty w- well done. "This is an impending Constitutional crisis. Courts and Congress become subordinate to the Executive Branch, and then our system crumbles at its foundation. We are nearing that moment, if not there already. Our system is far more fragile than most people appreciate. It depends on people in power respecting the Constitutional framework. At bottom, it's an honor system. Most people in power get to the... get this at a gut level, and will not touch the third rail, but here we are in uncharted territory. Never have we seen this happen at such a scale and depth." And I said, "Oh, well, that's happy." And, and he said, "It's gonna get worse before it gets better." And I said, "What does better look like?" And it, and he responded, "They're gonna break too many things. Markets will eventually crash, and people will lose basic services. The problem is it will take time for the public to really feel it." He di- he brought it back to the market itself too, is when the market goes, that's when they stop, right? And that's, you know, that's, there's a lot of damage in the interim, wh- this guy's not a... Trust me, he's not a, like, hi- hi- hyperbolic person in any way, and he's usually like, "Eh, whatever," for a lot of Donald Trump's things, but in this case, concerned, especially when it has to lead to market meltdown, essentially, or violence, presumably.

Scott Galloway 56:52 Makes sense. I don't, I mean, I'm so sort of overwhelmed and having, uh, I mean, I'm just, I- I'm having a difficult time processing every sort of destruction (laughs) of our institutions, and what felt like, what feels like everything, the pillars of what we thought we could rely on and sort of default to, that, that judges matter, that laws matter, that institutions matter, that there's a level of mutual respect, that you don't hack the government and stop payments to people in need, and I, I, it, it definitely feels like the opera- we've pressed the reset button, and we're not entirely sure what's gonna happen when it reboots back up.

Kara Swisher 57:29 Right, right. That's a really good way to put it.

Scott Galloway 57:32 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 57:32 It is sort of, you know, for people who don't under- it is the Silicon Valley ethos of, do we really need judges? Do we really... They question everything, and in some cases, that is a great thing. In other cases, it's deeply dangerous, right, the idea of things that probably we, not we shouldn't be questioning, but maybe we could do it better, they don't ever wanna do it better, they just wanna wreck it and then clean it up afterwards, and that's a, that's a very Musk-like characteristic. It's not just him, it's a lot of Silicon Valley, um, and so it's that thinking that, like, "What could go wrong? Is it so bad if we break it?" And I think you have to really understand their personality, and when it will matter was when, for at least Trump, from my, from what you just noted, will be when the economy tanks, when the market tanks, when there's, when rich people get, get made discomforted by this, right, versus just the moral argument that you should make that this, this system has worked for centuries and pretty well, even if it has all kinds of hair on it, right, that this, this is actually... We've never had a stronger economy. We've never been more productive. Uh, we've never been more everything, and yet here we are, starting to take apart the pieces that actually quietly hold it together.

Scott Galloway 58:45 Yeah, but there's... Uh, I agree with you, and that was my narrative kinda coming in, you know, when I was told to understand the assignment and support Biden and Harris, which I, I agreed to and signed up for, for a lot of reasons. But what, what a lot of America has said is, the, the narrative that, that you throw a bunch of numbers at me about the market and our prosperity, and all I know is there's... This all reverse-engineers, in my opinion, to income inequality and people being reminded every day that they're, seem to be the only people that aren't succeeding, and that no one, you know, that they're left behind, that their kids, they can't afford them. 40% of Americans now have some form of medical or dental debt. I think, I think there needs to be a new crop of leadership that comes out with really dramatic bold- So I'd like to, you know, let's lower Medicaid two years every year for the next 25 years until we have nationalized medicines. There, there just needs to be some really big, bold ideas from the left as opposed to burn everything down. And these discussions, I don't even wanna entertain these discussions with the right right now, because as far as I'm concerned, no, I- I- I'm not going to engage in a conversation with you. You- you're, you're, you're trying to foment an illegitimate forum around this discussion. Uh, you have, in my opinion, you're trespassing, and you're illegally hacking our government systems without government oversight.... and I'm, I, I just don't think we should be, you know-

Kara Swisher 1:00:07 Yeah, I, I-

Scott Galloway 1:00:07 Sure, talk about how outrageous it is.

Kara Swisher 1:00:09 But it... No, I'm not talking about how outrageous it is. It's an explanation of what their mentality is, and I think these people do not care about disruption and... or the effect. And I think downstream, away from all this huffin' and puffin' by everybody, and it's very serious stuff, Scott, it really is, is, is this is going to affect... This has nothing to do with the price of fucking eggs, right? Any of this. And it's n-... And attacking the court system, which is... People who run businesses like laws. Laws are good. Laws is good. If everyone, you know, runs stop signs and runs red lights and decides to murder people, this is not good for the economy. This is not good for stability. And so what- what's interesting is this, like, thoughtless idea of, of breaking without thinking of the implications of it, and I'm not exercised about it. I'm sort of like, "This is the stupidest thing I've ever seen." Like, "Are you crazy? This works pretty fucking well." And so to me, it all does boil down to people who like disruption and don't mind breaking, and because they're in a position to be fine with it, and maybe they'll benefit in the new order, and regular people who are gonna see enormous economic stress from all of this if, if they keep going at the rate they're going. I mean, basically that if the rule of law feels at risk, if judges feel nervous, if, if, if when they call the US Marshals Service and they decide not to come 'cause Pam Bondi i- is a, is a suck up, that's a problem. That's a real... People don't believe in the law, really, pretty much. I don't know.

Scott Galloway 1:01:41 Well, w- when I moved to London, within the kind of six months, I just gained a new appreciation for America in terms of the viscosity, the risk aggressiveness. In general, people start from a position of yes. They're optimistic. There's a, just a shit ton of opportunity. Our universities are just incredible. Our entrepreneurs are incredible. I generally think that in the wild in America, people are, are generous, really decent people. I'm so impressed with our... I'm, you know... It sounds weird. I, I miss my students. I miss the, the service. Uh, we used to have this wonderful program that... like a GI Bill. All these incredibly talented young people who went to work in government. America works... (laughs) America works less bad than any other nation in the world, and I think a lot of citizens in the United States are about to find out that government isn't as bad as they think, and they're really gonna miss it when it gets shut down, when they stop... You know, the FAA does an amazing job. Your Veterans Affairs Department, sure there's a lot of waste, but the reason why, one of the reasons we are, you know, respected around the world and get the best treaties and have 700 military bases is because we have all these people who are willing to sign up and put themselves in harm's way, and then when they come back, we attempt to reasonably honor them and take care of them. It just... People are about to find out just how well actually American government does work. And if you have to move to London or if you have to have your benefits taken away and find out what happens when these institutions collapse, okay, so be it. I hope the collateral damage isn't as enormous as it likely will be, but I just feel like we're dealing with a series that Americans have become... Everybody has a tendency to say all Americans are... I think they're fucking spoiled children at this point. I don't think they realize how fortunate they are at the largess and inefficiency of government.

Kara Swisher 1:03:30 All right, Scott. Just remember, you're mean, cruel, and deceitful.

Scott Galloway 1:03:34 That's right.

Kara Swisher 1:03:35 Um, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Scott,

Kara Swisher 1:03:38 let's hear some wins and fails. Uh, would you like to go first, or would you like me to go first?

Scott Galloway 1:03:42 You go first.

Kara Swisher 1:03:43 Um, I, I'm, I'm gonna do two wins today. One is, uh, I gotta say, Wired's coverage of all things Elon and Doge has become essential reading, uh, scoop after scoop about all the craziness.

Scott Galloway 1:03:53 Who would've thought? Wired?

Kara Swisher 1:03:54 Well, they've got a new editor, Katie Drummond, who's, um, uh-

Scott Galloway 1:03:57 Great writer.

Kara Swisher 1:03:57 ... they call the digital thorn in Elon Musk's side is, is Wired. But I gotta say, the final... This is s-... You know, Wired has gone in and out of relevance over the many years, but, um, I gotta say, this is just great reporting, and their, their, their subscriptions are up. Amanda came home. She goes, "I just got a subscription to Wired." Like-

Scott Galloway 1:04:14 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:04:14 ... you know, it's just, uh-

Scott Galloway 1:04:15 I should do that. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:04:16 Uh, it's, uh, doing a great job on basic news, and it's been very fair. It hasn't been snarky. It hasn't been... It's just been, "Here's who they are. This is what they're doing. Here's what's happening." I have to say, it's essential reading, and I have to... I, I give them, uh, great credit for that, and I like to call out institutions that have really, um, im- just really improved our lives, and they're doing a great job. They're doing a great job and doing it with real, like, steadiness, uh, which is really hard to do. Uh, my other win, I hate to say this, but the penny thing, that Trump is-... wants to end the production of pennies. I hate pennies, so I'm happy with that. I wanted to say one positive thing about (laughs) the Trump administration. I don't know if it'll happen, but lots of countries are eliminating pennies, just so you know, all courts-... all sorts of countries. Canada phased out the p- penny in 2012. Um, so it just costs a lot of money. It's... I, I know I used to collect pennies as a kid and wrap them and shit like that, but I don't, I don't like a penny. I don't like a penny. (laughs) That's my whole thing. Okay, uh, moving on.

Scott Galloway 1:05:20 There you go. Uh, I have two wins. I don't know what platform it's on, but I'm fascinated with this woman. She's a historian and staff writer at The Atlantic named Anne Applebaum.

Kara Swisher 1:05:28 Yeah, I love her. She was just on the podcast. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:05:31 And I've just... I'm learning a lot from her, and I, I think she has a very measured and thoughtful way of looking at history and relating it to what's going on now, so I would recommend everyone tune in or do a search for Anne Applebaum on, on, um... What's it called, that Meta platform? Instagram. And then I'm gonna have another win 'cause I'm, I'm, I'm too freaked out to have too many fails. I've been watching The Penguin, and it's, it's actually just okay. It's not what you expect. It's good.

Kara Swisher 1:05:57 They don't won all those awards.

Scott Galloway 1:05:57 It's not great.

Kara Swisher 1:05:58 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:05:59 But, uh, Colin Farrell?

Kara Swisher 1:06:00 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:06:00 Is that his name? Is it Colin Farrell?

Kara Swisher 1:06:02 Colin Farrell, mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:06:03 He's... I mean, my God. He's a-

Kara Swisher 1:06:06 Transformed.

Scott Galloway 1:06:07 ... Jesus. He'll, I think, he'll win a lot, 'cause you know what they like. They want you to play someone who's mentally disabled or overweight or, you know, they want you to transform into someone else to win the Academy Award. Supposedly it took four hours every time, but he is, I mean, it's just fascinating to kinda watch him and how-

Kara Swisher 1:06:24 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:06:25 ... good he is. Uh, it's really a- an amazing-

Kara Swisher 1:06:27 Do you like it?

Scott Galloway 1:06:27 Pardon?

Kara Swisher 1:06:28 Seems dirty to me. Like, I feel like, ugh, Gotham City. Like, ugh, I don't wanna any more Gotham fucking City. I feel like I live in Gotham City now. What, tell me, is it good? You said it's only okay.

Scott Galloway 1:06:38 I think it's good, not great. I, I think his perform- I mean, i- it's hard to ta- it's hard not to take your eyes off his performance, so it, that, I think it's just, I think his performance is just incredible. Um, I think occasionally, you know, W- Walter White in Breaking Bad, I forget, uh, the actor's name, um, you know, occasionally there's a performance by, uh-

Kara Swisher 1:07:00 Bryan Cranston.

Scott Galloway 1:07:00 Bryan Cranston. But this is that kinda role, and it's just, uh, just is an unwind, just to appreciate this guy's craft. And he's, you know, he's so handsome, and he's so, I've never thought of him... I, I do think, you know, we were talking about Brad Pitt, I think really exceptionally good-looking people don't get the credit they deserve as actors. (laughs) And, but he's really... And you know what he did? He had to, (laughs) he had to do four hours of makeup to make him really, really ugly to, for you to realize (laughs) what a good actor he is. But anyways, my wins are Anne Applebaum in The Penguin with, um, Colin Farrell.

Kara Swisher 1:07:35 He was in a remake of the, of the one set on Mars that Arnold Schwarzenegger was in, Total Recall. Do you remember that?

Scott Galloway 1:07:41 Oh, really? Yeah, he was in-

Kara Swisher 1:07:42 I'm sorry, I like the, uh, Schwarzenegger version much better. But, um, yeah, he's been in a ton of stuff. He's a, he's a very, he's a very talented, um, person in general, and handsome man.

Scott Galloway 1:07:53 Have you seen the one with Nicole Kidman where she's banging and having an orgasm?

Kara Swisher 1:07:56 I can't do it. I can't do it.

Scott Galloway 1:07:57 You can't do it? I don't see how you could.

Kara Swisher 1:07:58 I don't wanna watch her have an orgasm. I'm sorry.

Scott Galloway 1:08:00 Really?

Kara Swisher 1:08:00 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:08:02 I think you're being ageist.

Kara Swisher 1:08:04 I don't think so.

Scott Galloway 1:08:05 I think if she was-

Kara Swisher 1:08:05 I just-

Scott Galloway 1:08:05 I think if she was, she was the young, hot Nicole Kidman, you'd enjoy it.

Kara Swisher 1:08:07 I literally have no fucking interest in it. I have no interest in it. I don't wanna see it. Don't wanna see her having an orgasm several times. I'm sorry.

Scott Galloway 1:08:14 What'd you think of the commercial with Har- When Harry Met Sally when they redid... Did you see that? They redid the scene.

Kara Swisher 1:08:18 Uh, I didn't see the commercial. I have to watch it. I, I don't like when they redo things like that.

Scott Galloway 1:08:22 The- Don't watch it. It's depressing, 'cause you realize how old you are, 'cause they look, they look like Democratic congresspeople storming-

Kara Swisher 1:08:28 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:08:28 ... the Department of Education. It's like-

Kara Swisher 1:08:30 Oh, God. The only thing I liked was the t- the new Mission: Impossible is coming, and I can't wait. Reckoning, whatever, Dead Reckoning. By the way, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51- PIVOT. But speaking of movies, elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, I talked to Cynthia Erivo on On, who is the great, uh... She, she was in Wicked, but she's also been in The Color Purple, on Broadway. She's, she's all over the place. She was in Harriet. Uh, this woman's, like... S- she's o- if she wins an Oscar, she's a, she gets an EGOT, um, and I think she's, uh, great. So I interviewed her. Let's listen.

Greta Gerwig 1:09:09 I think part of doing this tour is to make sure that everybody understands that it's not just a chick film. It's not just-

Kara Swisher 1:09:16 Mm-hmm.

Greta Gerwig 1:09:16 ... for little girls. It's not just for kids. That it's actually for everyone. There is something for everyone in it. And that just because there are two women protagonists, that doesn't automatically mean that no men can understand what's going on. We don't say that of films that are mainly male, and most films-

Kara Swisher 1:09:38 Mm-hmm.

Greta Gerwig 1:09:38 ... are mainly male. I mean, we have The Irishman which was fr- quite frankly all men, but nobody-

Kara Swisher 1:09:43 Mm-hmm.

Greta Gerwig 1:09:43 ... is saying, "This is a dude film." No, we go and we watch it because it's a good film. We go and we watch good cinema.

Kara Swisher 1:09:50 That's aimed at you, Scott.

Scott Galloway 1:09:51 I wanna see... Uh, Wicked, it's supposed to be fantastic.

Kara Swisher 1:09:53 It is.

Scott Galloway 1:09:53 I wanna see it. And she's supposed to be an immense talent, and I like Ariana Grande.

Kara Swisher 1:09:57 Good cinema. She also talked a lot about being queer, a whole bunch of stuff. It was really, actually a really good interview, and I needed a palate cleanser, Scott. I needed a palate cleanser, 'cause then I-

Scott Galloway 1:10:06 Good for you. You deserve it.

Kara Swisher 1:10:07 I do- from, I went from Anne Applebaum, and now I'm back into it with a legal and economic one, so I needed, I needed-

Scott Galloway 1:10:13 I'm gonna bring you back. I'm gonna make you watch Nicole Kidman have orgasms. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:10:16 No, we're not... I would never watch that with you. That would be so awkward. Oh my God, I can't go to a sex movie with you. I just, that just flashed through my brain.

Scott Galloway 1:10:23 Well, that, that wasn't, that wasn't on my bingo card either, so... (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:10:27 (laughs) No, I'm serious.

Scott Galloway 1:10:28 Yeah, no, that's-

Kara Swisher 1:10:28 I'm serious. We can't ever-

Scott Galloway 1:10:30 ... that's not gonna happen.

Kara Swisher 1:10:30 Because I had a discussion with my, with Louie the other day when we went to see Sausage Party.

Scott Galloway 1:10:34 I'm not sure I wanna hear this.

Kara Swisher 1:10:35 No.

Scott Galloway 1:10:35 I'm not sure I wanna hear this.

Kara Swisher 1:10:35 I took him as a teenager to Sausage Par- we were laughing our asses off because it was like-

Scott Galloway 1:10:39 Yeah?

Kara Swisher 1:10:39 ... awkward parent... I took him to Sausage Party, which was a cartoon. I thought it would just be funny, and it turned out to be sausage, uh, I mean, food having a lot of sex that was gross. And he looked at me while we were watching it, and he, and he goes, a- he goes, "This is awkward." And I go, "I'm the worst parent ever. Shall we leave?" He goes, "No," and I had to stay there and watch this horrible food orgy with my son at the time. It was terrible. I can't watch Nicole Kidman. Now, we're gonna go to, we're gonna-

Scott Galloway 1:11:06 I think that's my only-

Kara Swisher 1:11:07 ... go to a Mission: Impossible movie.

Scott Galloway 1:11:07 We're gonna go see Wicked. We'll-

Kara Swisher 1:11:08 Wicked. Oh my God.

Scott Galloway 1:11:09 Well, no, also a Mission: Impossible. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:11:10 You should go see Wicked with me. Let's do that.

Scott Galloway 1:11:12 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:11:12 Okay.

Scott Galloway 1:11:12 Let's do that. Good.

Kara Swisher 1:11:13 All right. Okay, let's do that. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday with more Pivot. (instrumental music plays) We have a face for radio, but here we are, because we're cruel, mean, and deceitful.

Scott Galloway 1:11:24 We're cruel and deceitful.