Who’s to Blame After Texas Flooding Tragedy — And What Needs to Change | Pivot

Scott Galloway 0:00 Thoughts and prayers aren't gonna bring those kids back, and they're not gonna help our infrastructure put in place the right warning system. (instrumental music)

Kara Swisher 0:10 Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:16 And I'm Scott Galloway. And this episode is sponsored by IBM.

Kara Swisher 0:19 We've got a lot to get to today, actually, in a very serious way, uh, because over the weekend, other people had really tragic weekends, including the flooding in Texas. Um, and of course, we will talk about other things like winners and losers from Trump's Big Beautiful Bill. Uh,

Kara Swisher 0:34 but first, let's get to the latest fuel on the fire of the big beautiful fight between Elon Musk and Donald Trump, which is just getting worse, as we predicted, Scott Galloway.

Scott Galloway 0:42 You did. No, you predicted this.

Kara Swisher 0:44 I did. I know him so well. He couldn't stand the- the deficit. I know him. He's talked about it for years, and I had to listen to it. So, Elon is lashing out over the lack of findings now. Today, he's moved on in, uh, in an FBI and DOJ review of the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. This was a thing he tweeted about when he started his fight with Trump, and then he took it back, and now he's back. Uh, I knew it. It's g- You know, he's got a hair up his ass about this and a bunch of other things. But the departments have reportedly concluded there was no Epstein client list, no evidence of blackmail, and that enhanced footage proves Epstein killed himself early Monday morning. Elon posted, "So umm," and then, "What is Ghislaine Maxwell in prison for? Stuff like this does not improve people's faith in government." Um, he also... Uh, you know, Pam Bondi's gotten herself in a bit of a mess, saying she had a list in front of her, and then, of course, she said there is no list. Um, and of- and of course, uh, Dan Bongino and, uh, Kash Patel has ma- have made their careers saying Epstein was- was killed, and now sa- say he isn't. Let's talk about the findings really quickly. They do make Bondi look suspicious, even if you don't believe this, and I know you had a different opinion about the Epstein thing than I did. I thought it was just he killed himself. But, um, uh, but- but that's not they're-

Kara Swisher 1:58 all they're fighting about. Trump is calling Elon, quote, "off the rails" following Musk's weekend announcement that he'll form a new political party, the America Party. Musk has called Trump's Big Beautiful Bill, quote, "a disgusting abomination" and suggested targeting some key House and Senate seats in 2026. It's actually somewhat canny. If he gets enough of them, he can certainly cause a lot of trouble. Uh, Tesla shares are falling in pre-market trading on Monday for a lot of reasons, including results, but this is not helping. Um, here's what Treasury Secretary Scott Besson had to say about it t- on Sunday to CNN's Dana Bash. And I will say ahead of it, he sounds like such a prig, but let's go.

Unidentified guest soundbite 2:35 The principles of Doge were very popular. I think if you looked at the polling, Elon was not. So, uh, I believe that the boards of directors at his various companies wanted him to come back and run those companies, which he is better at than anyone. So, I imagine that those board of directors did not like this announcement yesterday and will be encouraging him to focus on his business activities, not his political activities.

Kara Swisher 3:01 Gosh, thanks, Mom. (laughs) Just honestly, Scott Besson. It's none of your business what he does. But in any case, all the bickering has hurt his relationship with Beijing too, because Tesla sales are falling off there, as we have discussed many times, because BYD has great cars. And, uh, and that- that's the way it goes there in- in there. So, so tell me a little bit about this, Scott. How do you feel this just continuing? Um, and- and actually, I think it can cause some real damage here, actually, but maybe you don't.

Scott Galloway 3:27 Well, typically, any third party that gets any traction, it has a center of gravity, a reason for being. The Green Party, it's pretty clear what, you know, they think. The Ross Perot's Independent movement wanted a flat tax. That had some substance to it. Andrew Yang's party that he tried to start, I thought had some substance to it. He's known for UBI. The substance of- of Musk trying to start a party is the following, or the center of gravity, is, "I'm disappointed I'm no longer the first friend." You know, the... Uh, his- his criticism that this guy is a pedophile and that this bill will add to the deficit and is ir- is irresponsible, he was down with all of that when he had input around who was gonna be the next director of the CIA or the IRS. He- it didn't seem to bother him then. But basically, since he's been kinda unceremoniously kicked out of the White House, he's decided we need a third party. So, this thing doesn't... It- it's sort of dead on arrival in the sense that it doesn't- it doesn't have a reason for being. And in addition, as a construct, the United States electoral system just isn't set up for a third party. It's set up to block any third party. We have... The system's essentially rigged for two. It's a- a first-past-the-post, winner-take-all elections. It's not some... In some nations, they have sort of a parliamentary or representative or proportional representation, like Germany, Sweden, and Israel. They routinely see viable third, fourth, and fifth parties because seats are allocated based on vote share, uh, not an all or nothing. So, when you have all or nothing, it's binary. So, a third par- all third parties do, when they're successful, and I don't think this one will be, is they're spoilers. Um, Bill Clinton should not have won the presidency, but Ross Perot took 18% of the vote, probably like 11 to 7 from Bush, Clinton, respectively, and Clinton became president. The Jill Stein people would argue stole the presidency. Ralph Nader people think is what handed, um, you know, W the presidency. So, they can be spoilers, but this one has no reason for being. This one comes across as sour grapes. Scott Besson comically pretending or trying to call on the board of directors to actually do something here is- is co- is laughable. So, I think this, like most third parties, will get... I- I: I think this will die a quick death, but w- we'll see.

Kara Swisher 5:51 All right, let me, let me put something out for you, because one of the things that he's been talking about is- is knocking off a couple of seats, right? Given how close these elections are, 210 to whatever, it's always within two or three, right? What if he goes after-... two Senate seats and eight House seats, and then suddenly has them, you know, in- encourages and gets a certain number of people into place that could block everything, right? There is that. Nobody's ever really talked about it like that. Um, and if he, he gets those Congresspeople in and they are beholden to him or, or they agree with him, right? And people find it appealing, because I do think people don't find the Democrats or the Republicans, there's a whole RINO group. Um, you know, Mark Cuban is like, "This is a good idea." And I think they all think of it as blocking these two parties. And so instead of thinking it like, "Let's have a third party," let's have a third blocker, um, is how I look at it. And so if they could do that and they, and they're, they're the difference between... How hard could it be to get six seats? I don't know. I don't know. Like, I don't think it's impossible, that's for sure. But a lot of people who I, I'm surprised are sort of like, "Huh, interesting idea." And I think that's what he's doing here. And he's actually kinda said it in that regard is, "I can find a way to block, you know, them from voting these things in and giving nobody the majority," really, essentially. Any thoughts on that?

Scott Galloway 7:19 Well, I think you're right, but we're talking about two different things. One is I, I don't think a third party, a viable third party, is viable. What you're talking about is influence, and Elon Musk has already proven he can have massive influence. There's a decent argument that he's the reason that Trump was elected.

Kara Swisher 7:35 Correct. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 7:35 So when you're worth $400 billion and you have a big media platform and you're bold and unafraid, as Musk is, you're absolutely right. He could... I mean, Pete- One thing, Peter Thiel could call Vice President Vance and say, "I need you to promote, um, a... NASA should be focused solely on, you know, going to Pluto." And he would say, "Yes, Mr. Thiel" (laughs) . Um, uh, Peter Thiel has, is the puppet master behind JD Vance. And Elon Musk, until recently, had a lot of control over Musk, but now that Trump is, you know, uh, excuse me, now that Trump is probably not running again and feels like, "Okay, I've used this guy. I've squeezed all the juice I want from this lemon," but Elon Musk with his platform and his money, unfortunately because of Citizens United, could absolutely get enough people elected that owed him enough that they would have to take his call and vote one way or another.

Kara Swisher 8:30 Or just would vote one way or another. Like, maybe there's a, there, there is this sort of group that is like... Interestingly, Sam Altman was saying he's politically homeless, that feel politically homeless on both sides of the equation. Now, that doesn't mean to say if there's centrist Democrats they might not like them, or reasonable Republicans, they might... There's this group that I think very much so, if he got, um, you know, if he put enough money to it and the right person in some of these i- uh, if you could target six seats, like, like a Mike Lawler, for example, that don't have to be beholden to the Trump people, and once Trump's missing from the equation, less scared, you could, you could see them just blocking legislation almost continually, like until they, until the groups compromise, which it honestly is not such a bad thing, which is why I think Cu- I haven't talked to Cuban about it, but that's my assumption that Cuban thinks is attractive. He got a lot of shit for that, for saying interesting, by the way.

Scott Galloway 9:29 Uh, w- i- if, if past elections are any proxy for what's gonna happen in the midterms, we'll see-

Kara Swisher 9:34 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 9:35 ... Democrats, uh, retake control of the House, at which point-

Kara Swisher 9:38 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 9:38 ... it'll be very hard for them to get legislation through unless, to your point, they compromise.

Kara Swisher 9:42 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 9:43 Uh, the idea... Musk is absolutely has the ability and the firepower to get several people elected, which could end up being a swing vote. The problem is, and I've said this over and over, he's a drug addict, and he's a narcissist, and I don't think he's especially concerned or has a lot of regard for the he- wellbeing of our deficit or the United States. I think he just wants power. So maybe he can get it, but then what? And then what? You think... I, I just don't-

Kara Swisher 10:08 Right. I do think this is something he has talked... The deficit thing has been on his mind for a long time. That is certainly true. And I've heard it from not just him, but other people like him, right?

Scott Galloway 10:17 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 10:18 This deficit, this overspending, and you talk about too.

Scott Galloway 10:20 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 10:20 I mean, it's vaguely appealing to not let them do this, right? To d- to deny them the ability to add on taxes or, um, or to take away from young people or people who marginalize people or not making the investments. There's, the problem is there's things he's right about. Why are we continuing to double down on fossil fuels and not... Even th- even if he's hurt about the EVs, directionally it's correct compared to fossil fuels. So there's a lot of appeal to certain people, I think. One interesting... There's two things that I think about. One is Joe Rogan suddenly is like, "Wait a minute. He's taking away hard..." Like, that gang goes with Elon? That's a big gang, right? Like, kinda thing of people who have influence. Um, this, so it creates a chaos which is sort of where he lives. Um, the second thing is that the response from Republicans has been fascinating. It's so over the top. Trump himself, that, did you see that long wor- um, it looks like it was written by Stephen Miller 'cause it had some punctuation. Um, but it was sort of like over, like right in the middle of so many other crisises for him to take the time to do like a, a, the giant paragraph was, was and full of like, "He's off the rails. He takes drugs." Like, he's throwing everything at him, which means he's worried. Um, and, and then 'cause if he wasn't worried, he'd ignore him presumably. Um, and then secondly, so, uh, God, Scott Jennings on CNN. Um, I work for CNN. I'm sorry, CNN. But that you let him say things like that?

Unidentified guest soundbite 11:48 My humble advice to Elon, who I admire very much actually, is that you may be dividing the forces of people who want to save Western civilization to the benefit of the people who don't.

Kara Swisher 12:00 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 12:00 A little dramatic.

Kara Swisher 12:01 Dramatic. What a drama queen and what a terrible thing to say. Um, I, I'm sort of welcoming, um, M- Musk to mow those people down, like, you know what I mean, in terms of, of causing them problem, and they're all very, very worried about this. So I just am paying attention to their response, which is...... off the charts, which is 'cause they understand, uh, the damage he could do, including around Epstein, even though, I mean, how are you feeling about the Epstein thing now that this was re- released? 'Cause you were sort of, "Kara, he was killed." (laughs) You r- remember you were, like, on that, that train? That-

Scott Galloway 12:35 I, I feel, I mean, I'm j- I, I just think it's like, I think it's old news and they keep-

Kara Swisher 12:39 Really? I know.

Scott Galloway 12:39 ... pulling the ghost, uh, uh, really? I think they keep pulling the ghost out of, of, of Epstein. But th- there was a couple things there. The first is, as progressives, what Elon's doing now is nothing but upside for us. Distinct of the viability of a third party, distinct of what his motivations are. His primary motivation is that he hates Donald Trump and feels like he was treated poorly. I, I don't believe that he's that concerned. May- fine. Maybe he is. He's on the record as not liking the deficit. Well, he, he was fine with it when, when he would- got to show up to the West Wing in Hot Topic outfits and talk about A Brave New World and everyone was like, "You're the co-president." He seemed to be comfortable with these deficits.

Kara Swisher 13:17 Yes. Agreed.

Scott Galloway 13:18 And with, with everything he knew about, you know, uh, Donald Trump and Epstein up until that point. But he's fueled right now, as far as I can tell, by rage and-

Kara Swisher 13:28 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 13:28 ... revenge. And, uh, and if he gets people elected who are against Trump, I'm all for it. Great. The, the other thing is, and this is part of the, this is part of the problem with, what, what, what Scott Jennings represents, is that America doesn't realize they're fighting the wrong enemy. And that is... And I think the left is just as guilty of this as the right, is that you're asked to pick a team. And if you ever, like, wanna hang out with the other team, you're treated as an apostate.

Kara Swisher 13:57 Absolutely.

Scott Galloway 13:57 And people... And we, we've experienced this. I, I, I ve- I still am feel like-

Kara Swisher 14:02 We get it all the time.

Scott Galloway 14:03 I still feel, like, kind of angry and bitter out of all these pe- all, all these people who, when we were talking about or expressing concerns about Biden-

Kara Swisher 14:10 Yep.

Scott Galloway 14:10 ... they're like, "You don't understand the assignment. You're gonna get Trump elected. You're, you're anti-Ameri-" I mean, it's just like, no, I'm, I'm a, I'm a-

Kara Swisher 14:16 Oh, I posted about Musk. They're like, "We don't want him." I'm like-

Scott Galloway 14:19 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 14:19 ... "You kinda do." Like, what are you talk- he's gonna, like... He's gonna-

Scott Galloway 14:23 It, it-

Kara Swisher 14:23 ... crash all their-

Scott Galloway 14:23 There is nothing-

Kara Swisher 14:24 ... bumper cars, people.

Scott Galloway 14:24 ... at this point, given the dynamics, there's nothing but upside for progressives and there's nothing but downside for the president. But what's also clear from this is that the president is much more powerful and much more popular than Musk. And because y- it feels right now, he feels like, quite frankly, it feels like Musk is flailing a little bit and angry. Um, we'll see what happens, but I'm here for it because he's not, he's not gonna send... Ch- Musk isn't gonna use his power and his money to get people elected who will support the president's agenda right now. That's something (laughs) I don't, I'm fairly certain of. So fine. H- my enemy's enemy is my friend.

Kara Swisher 14:58 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 14:58 So-

Kara Swisher 14:58 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 14:59 ... welcome.

Kara Swisher 14:59 I don't mind some centrist in the middle just blocking (laughs) things. I don't. Like, you know, you see the Freedom Caucus? "We're gonna block it." And then they never do. Like, they never do. They're such a bunch of, like, dickless wonders. Like, "Well, Chip Roy, oh, I really can't take this. Oh, yes, I voted for it." Like, I'd like some non-dickless wonders to say, "No, we're just not gonna vote for it, and you guys go back to the drawing fucking board and do something better." And I agree on the censorious of the left being exhausting. That said, N- Scott Jennings wins the prize on his, like, the, the, f- r- yeah, Scott, I'm against western civilization. Go, go fish-

Scott Galloway 15:31 Yeah, but Scott Jennings-

Kara Swisher 15:32 Go fish.

Scott Galloway 15:32 Scott Jennings is-

Kara Swisher 15:34 Go fish.

Scott Galloway 15:34 Scott Jennings is playing the same role-

Kara Swisher 15:36 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:37 ... as Meghan McCain, as-

Kara Swisher 15:38 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:38 ... I forget the little guy on the All-In podcast, and that is-

Kara Swisher 15:41 (laughs) Jason Calacanis.

Scott Galloway 15:43 They're supposed to be representative of the other side.

Kara Swisher 15:46 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 15:46 But they do su- they acquit themselves so poorly that they just-

Kara Swisher 15:49 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 15:49 ... cement and embolden and, uh, uh, polish-

Kara Swisher 15:54 I agree.

Scott Galloway 15:54 ... the views of the rest of the people.

Kara Swisher 15:56 Right. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:56 The only person that breaks that mold is Jessica Tarlov.

Kara Swisher 15:59 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:59 And that is, the four speak and it's like, "Okay, yeah. They tickle my sensors." And then all of a sudden, the five on the five, Jessica Tarlov-

Kara Swisher 16:06 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 16:06 ... speaks. I'm like, "Oh, she's kinda smart. Maybe she has a point."

Kara Swisher 16:08 (laughs) Yeah. Right.

Scott Galloway 16:09 Typically, the way they do these shows-

Kara Swisher 16:10 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 16:11 ... is, uh, on The View, they have four very progressive talk, and then they have whatever her name was, D- D- Dana Hasselback or whatever, like, screech-

Kara Swisher 16:19 Yeah, it's, it's Alyssa Farah now, but she's much more reasonable. But go ahead, yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:22 But she's, she's intelligent and impressive.

Kara Swisher 16:24 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:25 Typically, the model used to bring have Sean Hannity, who's a compelling figure, and then have Sean Combs basically make his point.

Kara Swisher 16:31 A- A- Alan Combs. It's Alan Combs.

Narrator 16:33 He's got like a-

Scott Galloway 16:33 Was it Alan Combs? Excuse me.

Kara Swisher 16:34 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:35 Uh, and that's what, you know, that's, that's, this person's ro- that's Scott's role right now.

Kara Swisher 16:40 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 16:40 He, he's there to make a point that kinda sounds aggressive, weak, and weird, and-

Kara Swisher 16:45 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 16:45 ... then the other Democrats just smack him down.

Kara Swisher 16:47 Yeah. Yeah. It's true. You're the Scott I like, just so you know.

Scott Galloway 16:50 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 16:51 You're the Scott I like.

Scott Galloway 16:52 It's good to know.

Kara Swisher 16:52 Good Scott. I call you Good Scott. Um, anyway, we'll see what happens. It's, it is certainly interesting. But, uh, at the same time, let's be clear. Musk's businesses are really suffering and could suffer even more, uh, including Tesla, including Starlink, including all of his businesses. So, he's not the, even if he's the world's richest man, he is also someone who is not without weakness in that regard and they're all- it's very leveraged against each other, so we'll see. Uh, speaking of something we thought he might get

Kara Swisher 17:17 ahold of, but he's obviously not now, TikTok is reportedly developing a US version of the app ahead of the upcoming sale deadline. President Trump has given the Chinese parent company ByteDance until September 17th to sell the assets, although he's extended that several times illegally. Um, he says he's been talking, he'll be talking to China early this week about the sale, and that he, quote, "pretty much has a done deal." It's probably Oracle and Marc Andreessen and some version of, uh, uh, various of its rich owners. The US version of TikTok would launch in the App Store on September 5th, um, which I don't know what that means. Uh, so I, uh, uh, I don't know if that's enough or what's enough, a US version? Um, I, I don't know what's gonna happen. Do we care anymore, Scott? Do we? We do, but we don't, if that makes sense.

Scott Galloway 17:59 Well, it's been so, I mean, he liked it, then he didn't like it, then he liked it again, and then he found out one of his biggest donors was a big investor there. Y- it all comes down to this. Who owns it? And whether it's a US version, that doesn't matter. It's who owns it and who has control over the algorithm. And I, I've now come to believe that China realizes they're playing with a much stronger hand than Trump, and that this guy continues to blink, and that whatever they do will be sort of window dressing.... uh, as opposed to, again, who controls the algorithm and gets to decide what content to dial up to further create a new generation of nonprofit, business and military leaders that basically think America sucks? I think that's the free gift with purchase that TikTok is getting in addition to their $300 billion in enterprise value. I don't think they're gonna give that up. I don't think they think they have to. I think they can come up with some sort of accommodation that President Trump can claim credit for but meanwhile, Beijing will still control the algorithm. So, uh, the only thing that matters here is who owns it.

Kara Swisher 18:59 Yeah. So who? What are you... I mean, I assume it's an Oracle, Andreessen rich guys thing, right, all his friends.

Scott Galloway 19:05 I just wonder if that's gonna happen. You think that, you think it's gonna happen.

Kara Swisher 19:08 I don't know. I don't, I, I don't know how the, he's gonna, he's, he's got a deal done, like he, like l- like I don't believe much of anything coming out of his mouth.

Scott Galloway 19:15 Right. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 19:15 So, um, I just don't know... yeah, again, why would Chi- what's he gonna do? What's he gonna do? Like what's, what's he gonna do?

Scott Galloway 19:22 Well, he could technically-

Kara Swisher 19:23 If they just-

Scott Galloway 19:23 He could ban it, he, he could enforce the ban that-

Kara Swisher 19:26 Well, that's the law.

Scott Galloway 19:26 There was-

Kara Swisher 19:26 That's the law. Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:27 But he hasn't enforced the law.

Kara Swisher 19:28 Right.

Scott Galloway 19:28 He could enforce the law that's been passed by both, by all branches of government that he's decided not to enforce-

Kara Swisher 19:33 You're right. Right.

Scott Galloway 19:34 ... and then it effectively would be banned but here's the thing. China doesn't care. China, China has a private enterprise, they run their companies for control not for profits. I believe ByteDance is getting only about 20% of its revenue now from the US. They're not afraid, he keeps blinking, so if they can come to some sort of accommodation that again gives him a perceptual victory, but meanwhile Beijing gets, has their hands on the algorithm, then I can see it happening. I don't see Beijing at this point handing over TikTok to US interests.

Kara Swisher 20:03 Yeah, why would they? I just don't see what, what, uh, unless they want something else maybe. Uh, I don't know. Why would it be worth it in any way? Besides, they're not gonna, it's, it, this, it, look, that, that app, they're, they're managing to ruin this app really in a lot of ways and eventually people won't use it just like they don't use anything else. But, um, certainly this idea, "I've done a deal," like he likes to s- why does he have to stick with that? It's so kind of gross and old man-y, like, "I do, I do deals, I'm a deal maker. The art of the deal." It's like stop, like we got it, like 'cause you don't really do good deals, you do some good deals, some d- you don't, but he has to always like flack it. Okay Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, the deadly flooding in Texas and questions raised about whether officials did enough to warn people. (instrumental music plays) Support for Pivot comes from IBM. Bigger isn't always better, especially with AI. Supersized models can drain your budget fast. Smaller ones are smart and can help cut AI costs up to 90%. Right-size your models at ibm.com. The AI built for business. IBM.

Kara Swisher 21:08 Scott, we're back. At least 80 people including 28 children are confirmed dead after a catastrophic flood swept through Central Texas, which is known as the flash flood, uh, corridor I think, over the weekend. Dozens are still missing including 10 girls from a summer camp. Rescue efforts are still ongoing as of this recording and the finger pointing has already begun obviously right away. Some local officials are blaming the National Weather Service claiming forecasts underestimated the severity of the rainfall but meteorologists told Wired that NWS accurately predicted the risk of flooding and sent warnings, it just was in the middle of the night and, and they have these systems that, that don't, they don't have sirens in this particular area, um, people ignore them, people ignore warnings, things like that. Uh, there's also the Doz factor, hundreds of jobs at NWS were cut earlier this year, some crucial positions at local offices are currently unfilled according to New York Times. That particular story was quite disturbing actually. And an NWS staffer told the Texas Tribune that the regional offices had adequate staffing and technology saying "This was us doing our jobs to the best of our abilities," which doesn't exactly make you feel confident. Um, past few days I'll also note, ag- as this is a flood prone area, it has happened in the past, back I think in the 1970s, they've considered warning systems and they did not implement them because of the cost, um, one, one local official said they were extravagant costs to put these sirens in particularly. Uh, again, texting is hard in this area, it has s- uh, lower, uh, cell phone, uh, coverage for example, people ignore it, um, this also happened at the worst possible time a- and Scott you put up a number of pictures of how quickly these floods go in during the day. This was in the middle of the night, um, or dar- in darkness and so it was unexpected, people were sleeping, worst possible time this could happen, um, and the stories are, are heartbreaking. Um, is there any chance the Trump administration re-evaluates some of those cuts? They're definitely stuck in this cycle of they're to blame for what's happened. Um, why don't you talk a little bit about this?

Scott Galloway 23:12 When I s- when something like this happens I think a lot about one of the, one of those books that kind of changed our, (sighs) I don't know, gave me a, a, a seminal framework for how I evaluate decisions is, uh, Daniel Kahneman's work, specifically Thinking, Thinking Fast and Slow I think it's called and there's sort of, there's system one thinking right? In that you have to have system one thinking to respond. Something, an emergency happens, it, you fight or flight, you need to respond immediately, you need to make very quick decisions. Uh, the problem is, and what we pay our elected officials for is that we're supposed to have slow thinking, we're supposed to slow down and look at structural change and what are the things leading up to this crisis that potentially could have helped avoid it? And the system one thinking immediately takes over. Media defaults to drama, quick narrative formation, they love heroic rescues, um, uh, politicians use shortcuts, they immediately want to fill a narrative or backfill a narrative to, to show, you know Democrats want to say this is all about climate change, this is all about the cuts and then Republicans go really fucking crazy and claim it's s- evidence of some sort of deep state conspiracy to control the weather.

Kara Swisher 24:20 I know.

Scott Galloway 24:21 And then-

Kara Swisher 24:21 Yeah. They love that one.

Scott Galloway 24:22 ... the recent, you know, availability bias, recent dramatic floods get disproportionate attention compared to ongoing prevention needs, partisan re- reflexes activate, we've seen that.And the whole point of a government, and the whole point of being an adult is you're supposed to let your slow thinking take over and say, "All right." You know, the time pressure-

Kara Swisher 24:41 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 24:41 ... prevents real analysis, and that is, these things demand immediate reactions, not careful evaluation. And the reality is, we don't know. I mean-

Kara Swisher 24:49 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 24:50 So, for example, with the-

Kara Swisher 24:51 Correct.

Scott Galloway 24:51 ... the two weather services that are charged with, uh, response and prevention and then communications, they are dramatically understaffed. They have been understaffed for a while, but we don't know. We don't have enough data yet to s- to, to say with any certainty whether that understaffing, or if they had been adequately staffed, if it would've resulted in a different outcome. And the problem is, is that these jobs are what I call invisible until there's a disaster. I always talk about jobs invisible until you fuck up. And that is the TSA, lifeguards, vaccine research, I mean, all of these jobs, the CDC, we don't know how many pandemics the CDC has stopped. Because the whole point of government is that you don't appreciate how boring their work is, because they prevent... We don't know how many terrorist cells have been busted up before they killed a bunch of people, because they did this boring hard work that requires investment and meticulous systemic infrastructure investment. And unfortunately, that doesn't make for good TV. It doesn't make for heroics. It doesn't make for speeches trying to demonstrate leadership and thoughts and prayers and people in FEMA jackets. So prevention gets no credit. Voters res- reward visible disaster response over invisible-

Kara Swisher 26:04 People in boats.

Scott Galloway 26:04 ... long-term infrastructure investments.

Kara Swisher 26:06 Right. People in boats pulling people out of trees.

Scott Galloway 26:07 Which creates p- which creates perverse political incentives. It's the same as you wanna watch a TV show a- called ER as opposed to-

Kara Swisher 26:15 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 26:15 ... preventive medicine. That doesn't make for good daytime. That doesn't make for good evening drama.

Kara Swisher 26:21 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 26:21 Must-see TV is never, like, preventive med- the vax, the family planning clinic. (laughs) I mean, it just-

Kara Swisher 26:26 Yeah. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 26:27 That doesn't make for good drama.

Kara Swisher 26:28 Let's create a show. Another ba- another plane landed safely, in other words.

Scott Galloway 26:33 So-

Kara Swisher 26:33 That, that's not news.

Scott Galloway 26:34 So what I, what I would encourage us-

Kara Swisher 26:36 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 26:37 And what I try and do is say, when people say, "What do you think happened?" I go, "I've, I don't, I have no fucking idea. I know it rained a lot and a lot of good people, uh, have incurred a tragedy." Would a more thoughtful response to flood control and weather services investment have prevented this? We don't know yet. Is it clear, is it clear that we have more catastrophic weather events that are more extreme and more frequent? Yes. But was this a function of that? We don't know.

Kara Swisher 27:05 Right, right.

Scott Galloway 27:05 And, and so the question is, well, let's, let's lean on good people and scientists who are pursuing the truth. Let's slow our thinking down, and then let's make the requisite investments in infrastructure and personnel that are really fucking boring-

Kara Swisher 27:18 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 27:18 ... such that we talk about this stuff less.

Kara Swisher 27:20 I mean, you noted here, this New York Times report that I just referred to, you put this in your notes. The National Weather Service's San Angelo office, which is responsible for some of the areas hit hardest by Friday's flooding was missing a senior hydrologist, staff forecaster, and meteorologist in charge. To me, and a lot of it... You know, it was interesting 'cause Kristi Noem was then... Texas people blamed the go- you know, Trump administration. They were saying it was 'cause of ancient systems in the past. And I was like, "Wasn't President Drumpf the president in the past?" Like, again, she's, she's so dumb. It just... Constant stupidity from her. Um, it, and it seems like that's... And of course, Drumpf pretended he couldn't hear it. Right? "What? I can't hear you." Which doesn't do well for me not thinking he's an old man. Um, but I agree with you. I think this is- w- I, uh, we don't know what happened. Although, I will say, um, it's- i- v- from a pers- two things that I thought were repulsive that happened. One is the, all these conspiracy theories about weather control from people like...

Scott Galloway 28:16 (sighs) Can you get over that?

Kara Swisher 28:17 Like, that has not gotten a lot of purchase, but there was enough of it that it was ridiculous, um, that people are cont- no more weather controlling. I'm like, "Well, yeah, we should stop driving cars probably." Like, and if you wanna talk weather control. Um, y- you know, I think the bigger things immediately saying... I, I think it is climate. I mean, it's so clear these, these... Right now, there's flooding in North Carolina. There's... The- these weather situations have gotten worse and worse. There's just no question about that.

Scott Galloway 28:45 Yeah. There's more of them. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 28:45 More of them. And very tragic kind of thing. One of the things that it seemed to me at the very basis was relying on a system of texting seems crazy to me, especially in a rural area, right? Like, that's how you warn people, especially if people aren't paying attention to their phones in the middle of the night. And they... I don't know, whenever you get one of these warnings here in DC, I get them, I ignore them, right?

Scott Galloway 29:07 Yeah. Me too.

Kara Swisher 29:08 They go... Just ignore it. You probably get a lot down in Florida I would assume, and they, they make your phone go, "Wah, wah, wah." And I pretty much ignore them. If it was a siren, I would not ignore it, interestingly enough. So it seems like they probably should have sirens here, especially when there's so many kids along that... You know what I mean? Like, that's one of the things I think will resonate is that, um, in this, this one camp, it's, it looks like a Christian camp. A lot of very high-level Texas officials sent their kids there. Um, I think Laura Bush worked there as a councilor. It seems like one of these institutions in that area of the country. Um, and the, and the director died trying to save these girls. I think it may... There's nothing wrong with some of the human stories here, Scott-

Scott Galloway 29:51 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 29:51 ... because I think it gets people going in that regard. And I, I think the Trump administration's gonna get dragged into this the way the Bush administration got dragged into Hurricane Katrina, if you remember. It seems incompetent.

Scott Galloway 30:04 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 30:05 Um, and seems... You know, he'll try... I'm... He might go there on Friday. He has to go there.

Scott Galloway 30:11 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 30:11 He really does. And I know the president's getting in the way. But from a symbolic point of view, he's gotta go there and he can't be throwing, you know, towels at them, like paper towels at them. The, the president should always be there for these kind of terrible incidents. So we'll see. Um, but I think you're right about thinking fast and slow, but it's inevitable there'll be human interest stories here on f- uh, sadly ever.

Scott Galloway 30:32 Yeah. Those alerts. You get the strangest alerts in Florida.

Kara Swisher 30:34 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 30:34 I got an alert that two men had broken-

Kara Swisher 30:37 Oh, no. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 30:37 ... into a pharmacy and stolen all the Viagra, and it said to be on the lookout for two hardened criminals.I couldn't resist her.

Kara Swisher 30:44 (sighs) I can't believe you made that joke here.

Scott Galloway 30:46 I couldn't resist.

Kara Swisher 30:46 Anyway, anyway, I don't ever say thoughts and prayers, but hearing about these kids-

Scott Galloway 30:52 I hate that.

Kara Swisher 30:52 ... break heartbreaking.

Scott Galloway 30:52 I think that is such an excuse for a lack of action. I hate that.

Kara Swisher 30:57 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 30:57 You know what, folks?

Kara Swisher 30:58 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 30:59 Uh, thoughts and prayers aren't gonna bring those kids back-

Kara Swisher 31:01 Yeah, they are not.

Scott Galloway 31:01 ... and they're not gonna stop climate change-

Kara Swisher 31:02 It's not.

Scott Galloway 31:03 ... and they're not gonna, and they're not gonna help our infrastructure put in place-

Kara Swisher 31:07 So what are we gonna do?

Scott Galloway 31:08 ... the right warning system.

Kara Swisher 31:09 What are we gonna do? This should, this should give us all a minute, uh, definitely. And, and it's, i- is fine for people to cover it and everything else, but we really need to get to the heart of it, as Scott said, and put experts in charge. That they really can prevent, you know, uh, can prevent these tragedies from being worse than they are, and this one is particularly bad, I think. Um, okay, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, how the big, beautiful bill is going to change the country as we know it. (screen whooshes) Scott, we're back. While you were away, Donald

Kara Swisher 31:36 Trump passed his big, beautiful bill. It's now law. The president signed the bill on his self-imposed deadline, the 4th of July, calling it, quote, "The single most popular bill ever signed," despite most polls saying otherwise. The final bill extends Trump's 2017 tax cuts, uh, which were supposed to go, uh, to end at the end of this year, slashes Medicaid significantly, boosts immigration enforcement by a lot, and adds over three trillion dollars to the deficit. Some of the big winners from this bill include wealthy Americans, corporations, and defense contractors, also prison people, um, prison owners. Um, some of the losers, low-income Americans, healthcare workers, clean energy companies drastically, and Elon Musk after the bill scrag- uh, scrapped EV subsidies. Also for anybody working in the EV industry, but you get a $7,500 annual, um, subsidy, uh, that is going away, um, whi- which is a very good time to buy an EV now if you want to, by the way, um, before those go away. Uh, talk about what this bill means, uh, for the country. I mean, what do you see... You've talked about this a lot, but, eh, now that it's passed, what do you see is some of the stuff dropped out, including selling public lands and some other stuff. Um, but some of the stuff absolutely stayed in there. Um, so talk a little bit about your thoughts about where it's going.

Scott Galloway 32:52 I've thought a lot about this bill. I think it cements the notion, an unfortunate motion or notion that America has officially decided that it's comfortable with the bottom 90% of America being nutrition for the top 10%. That this isn't just weaponization by the government of rich people. It's Americans deciding that, uh, I'm comfortable with the transfer of wealth from the future to the past, from the poor to the rich, from the young to the old, because I think maybe someday I'll be there. And also some of these images of how cruel and harsh it is get conflated with masculinity and leadership, and I don't think you can just blame Republicans and Trump. I think America has decided in some ways that it's now The Hunger Games, and I just think it's more than... I think it, I think it represents something deeper and more mendacious and ugly about America right now that there's... Because there really hasn't been a lot of pushback. I think most people acknowledge that this is gonna be good for rich people, and it's gonna be bad for poor people. 14 million plus are gonna lose their healthcare, and these are some of the most, you know, vulnerable people in the world, disabled kids, disabled seniors, uh, and then I'm gonna get a tax cut, and-

Kara Swisher 34:05 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 34:05 ... uh, that-

Kara Swisher 34:05 A big one.

Scott Galloway 34:06 At the end of the day, that's what this is. It's, it's taking about, you know, it's taking $800 billion out of, uh, Medicaid, and it's dramatically reducing taxation, such that, and, uh, adding to the deficit. So it's an enormous tax on future generations. It's, uh, a huge erosion in the social safety net for poor people, such that the most productive, if you will, that's the mo- nicest thing you could say, the most blessed, the most fortunate, the richest among us continue to, um, aggregate more wealth. And I'm... You know, if you give me a minute here, uh, I'm on vacation, and I think a lot about, you know, when I'm, when I have time to kinda slow down. When you're young, you think about, you credit your grit and your character for your success. You think about the pillars that your blessings are built on, and you have a tendency to go, "Well, it's my grit and my hard work and my talent." And then as you get older, you realize a lot of your success isn't your fault. And I, I literally could go through (clears throat) , and I will, my, the pillars of my prosperity, and they're all under attack in this bill. When I was in fourth grade, when I was nine, I got... I didn't get free lunch, but I got assisted lunch. And the wonderful thing about assisted lunch in California was they didn't want kids to have stigma, so they used to send coupons to my house, and they were the same coupons the other kids used.

Kara Swisher 35:31 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 35:31 And I've talked about this. When I was 17, my mom became pregnant. If we'd lived in a conservative era in this era, we wouldn't have been a- able to access family planning. There's no way I coulda gone to college. When I got to college, I got Pell Grants. Now they're talking about doing away... A third of the kids who receive Pell Grants now will have a reduction, or they'll be done away with, so I couldn't have graduated from college. And that, let's be clear, that, that illuminated or detonated an upward spiral of incredible prosperity and tens of millions of dollars in taxes paid by yours truly and my companies from the generosity of California taxpayers and the visions of the University of California, the Regents. If I had... The comp- look at the companies I started. They were all based (laughs) on the internet. What if we'd hadn't had the capital to invest in things like DARPA because we had been making a trillion dollars a year in interest payments for our debt to prop up the rich? My first programmer that built my first website at Red Envelope, Jawwad Mohammed, an immigrant from Pakistan, uh, the chief merchant of Red Envelope company I started and took public, f- an immigrant from Vietnam, the woman who ran our CBG practice at, uh, L2, a Canadian immigrant. Immigrants literally built my companies. All of these things, literally all of these things are under attack. And let me go very meta.You know, I wouldn't be here if America hadn't pushed back on fascism in the late 30s. My mother was a four-year-old Jew sleeping in bomb shelters in the London Tube. And we didn't, we didn't decide to commit, convert all our factories to producing tanks instead of washing machines and to, you know, have 400,000 homes have a gold star on the window because we were pushing back on antisemitism. We were pushing back on fascism, and what is fascism? The demonization of immigrants, a refusal to condemn violence against your opponents, and extreme nationalism. Does that sound familiar? So if we hadn't gagged on fascism in '39, I, you know, much less everything (laughs) I talked about previous to this, I might not be here.

Kara Swisher 37:27 No, you wouldn't.

Scott Galloway 37:27 So I feel as if every-

Kara Swisher 37:28 You absolutely wouldn't.

Scott Galloway 37:30 ... every reason I get to live the life I live and, you know, the prosperity, the taxes I paid, the kids, it, it, it, it really does feel like everything, all the ladders for many of us who are successful, the American experience, are being pulled up behind us. It's very upsetting.

Kara Swisher 37:52 Well, the problem is, a lot of people like you don't think that. They think they did everything on their own, like, which is incredibly ... The fact that you think about it is incredibly thoughtful because, I mean, it's the truth, for one, which is why it's correct, but many people in your, in your group doesn't, don't think that. They think people are lazy. You want Medicaid, you gotta work, that kinda thing. When they get free ... Like, I, I grew up pretty rich, Scott, and I remember a bunch of kids talking about a bunch of the, some of the lesser good kids that I went to school with, like, "Oh, they're lazy." I'm like, "How the f- do you know where you would be if you didn't have all this support?" Like, very, "You're so dumb, you're, you would be at the, you would sink to the bottom of this particular ocean." And I used to think, my grandfather was an immigrant from Italy. Um, his father was a stone cutter, um, came over from Italy, and he built up a business without very much education, and we, I, uh, I was allowed to do things 'cause of his, uh, entrepreneurship and his father's entrepreneurship. And, um, you know, it just is, uh, many, many people who are getting these breaks do not realize they are on third base, and they feel like-

Scott Galloway 39:02 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 39:02 ... they've hit a home run.

Scott Galloway 39:03 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 39:03 And they treat hardworking people, um, I don't know why the dr- dime is just dropping for Joe Rogan. Oh, they're going after const- people that work really hard, construction sites, gardening, all these things that people come here to try to work their way up the American system, which has been very good for a lot of people. And you're a perfect example of that. Uh, to me, honestly, I, if I had to pick the most egregious thing, it is all the money going to ICE and jailing people. Like, that to me is terrifying. The anno- like, you, you talked about this, like a couple billion dollars to help a Pell Grant versus $40 billion to jail people. There is no economic upside except for a small group of people in jailing hardworking Americans. Even if they came here, figuring out a way to keep them here and working hard would be the better use of that money.

Scott Galloway 39:54 Uh, i- i- it's, there, there are s- at the end of the day, the president is the ultimate capital allocator. And the amount of money-

Kara Swisher 40:00 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 40:00 ... we are spending on harassing people at, at Home Depots and at churches and at schools, doesn't it tell you something?

Kara Swisher 40:08 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 40:08 That this is where we're finding these people? And instead of taking that, what will, I think, be now 12 or 11 or $12 million a year, you know who's taking your job? The, the, the woman, you know, wiping grandma's ass and picking your crops and making sure that the restaurant bill isn't $30, it's 22, that's not who's taking your job. AI is gonna take your job. Do you know what we could do in terms of vocational training, upskilling people to be more critical thinkers and more skilled and able to handle the new technologies and the new threats of fut- We could be doing so much better with this money to ensure our wages stay high, to ensure there are good jobs for people, to ensure that we have a safety net, we have great education, we have great infrastructure. For God's sakes, we could take that money and build high speed- speed rail networks. We could build nuclear power plants to create an energy efficient or independent future that would create great jobs, and instead, we're funding what is effectively a modern-day Gestapo with WiFi. I mean-

Kara Swisher 41:04 Yep.

Scott Galloway 41:05 ... i- i- this is just-

Kara Swisher 41:05 You know what I'd like the money to be d- like, why don't we take the money and give it to sirens along the flood corridor? Why not? Like, that's something useful. All those people who would've died, all that incredible economic devastation, prevention. Like, i- it's, it is, you know, your story is exactly correct, and I wish more people like you spoke like this, that in terms of ... I, I don't understand why they don't. Something happens when you get to be a certain wealth that you think you did it all yourself. Like, I, I, y- you hang out with those people more than I do, but I'm a- I've always been perplexed by their inability to understand how they got to where they got. Maybe they grew up rich and didn't know or something like that. I don't know. I don't know.

Scott Galloway 41:46 Most of my friends are suitably freaked out, and one, one stat, 6,500 people in Q1 of this year applied for UK passports from the US who are wealthy, and that's a record. And I think there's a lot of people who recognize that, that again, a lot of their success isn't their fault. I mean, even going back to your parents or your grandfather who was an immigrant, how many immigrants, how many really talented and hungry people are gonna think, "You know what? If I'm gonna take a risk, am I gonna take a risk to go to America and face those risks, but in addition, I have to face the risk of having my phone taken away and maybe being rounded up?" I mean, right now, it's like, who, who wants to go to America right now?

Kara Swisher 42:26 And the thing is, we're the best place for them to do that. It's not like Europe is full of innovation and entrepre- you know what I mean? Like, maybe it will be-

Scott Galloway 42:33 I think it's gonna change.

Kara Swisher 42:34 ... maybe it won't. Yeah, maybe it will be.

Scott Galloway 42:34 I think, I think there's a decent chance, for the first time... I mean, I'm, I, I, my biggest investment in 2026 is this British aerospace company called Vertical, and in the last three months, we have seen a fairly serious uptick in investors interested in finding out more about the company because quite frankly, for the first time, they're no longer defaulting to just investing in American companies. That's gonna impact, that's just gonna make it much harder for American companies. We have taken for granted just how deep the capital pool is. I was a 27-year-old out of business school with a shaved head, which meant in s- in San Francisco, you could raise tens of millions of dollars for your startups. You can't do that in Poland. You can't even do that in Australia.

Kara Swisher 43:12 No. No. No.

Scott Galloway 43:12 A- a- and we've taken that for granted, and the reason why all of those people were willing to provide so much capital was because of things like rule of law and that we attracted the best and brightest from around the world-

Kara Swisher 43:23 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:23 ... and we funded universities-

Kara Swisher 43:24 We didn't spend all our money on police. Right.

Scott Galloway 43:25 We funded universities to do incredible, forward-leaning, crazy investments that might result in GPS.

Kara Swisher 43:31 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 43:31 And all of those things are under attack.

Kara Swisher 43:34 Yeah. Trump is, you know... (laughs) I, I, one thing, I'm, I'm thinking about his age all the time. I'm like, "He's old. He doesn't give a fuck because he's not gonna be here for the future, you know, for the real future," which is really-

Scott Galloway 43:46 Now do Congress and Senate. That's a big problem.

Kara Swisher 43:48 I agree. I agree.

Scott Galloway 43:49 And it-

Kara Swisher 43:49 I think we should keep... People, people have accused us of being ageists. I don't care at this point. I'm like-

Scott Galloway 43:53 Well, so is biology too.

Kara Swisher 43:54 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:54 Two-thirds of Congress is gonna be dead in 25 years.

Kara Swisher 43:57 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:57 Are they really that worried about climate change?

Kara Swisher 44:00 No.

Scott Galloway 44:00 Are they really freaked out about the deficit?

Kara Swisher 44:03 Yeah. Agreed.

Scott Galloway 44:03 I mean, it's like my dad says. My dad takes all these drugs now, and I'm like-

Kara Swisher 44:07 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 44:07 ... and I once said to him, "You know, you gotta think about the long-term effects." And he's like, "Dude, long-term effects-"

Kara Swisher 44:12 (laughs) Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:12 "... are not effects for me any longer."

Kara Swisher 44:14 Yeah. That's a fair point.

Scott Galloway 44:15 And-

Kara Swisher 44:15 My grandmother, I tried to get her to eat broccoli when she was older.

Scott Galloway 44:17 And like, what's the point?

Kara Swisher 44:18 She said, and she was, she-

Scott Galloway 44:18 Have the ice cream. Have pancakes.

Kara Swisher 44:20 She literally ate donuts and drank black coffee. And I said, "Can't you have a little broccoli?" She goes, "Is it gonna help?" I said, "It is not." And she said, "Therefore, I shall not eat it."

Scott Galloway 44:29 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 44:29 She hated broccoli her whole life.

Scott Galloway 44:31 No, wait.

Kara Swisher 44:31 Um, it would have been good earlier. Um, let me just move on very quickly. T- Trump still has more deal-making, supposedly, to do. The 90-day pause on the Liberation Day tariffs is coming to an end. He was supposed to do 90 deals in 90 days, have yet to materialize. Most of them are show pony deals. Um, the White House will be sending letters to countries, apparently detailing the new tariff rates, some as high as 70%. Uh, S- Treasury Secretary Scott Besson, the pissy one, shared a bit more on CNN over the weekend, saying if countries don't make a deal by August 1st, they'll boomerang back to their April l- level of tariffs. Besson insisted August 1st is not a new deadline, even though it is, Scott. Stop being s- he... I'm curious what he wants now with Elon out of the way. Anyway, uh, by the way, Scott, just because Elon's an asshole doesn't mean you're not. Um, so what do you, what, what do you think is gonna happen here?

Scott Galloway 45:19 I think it's already happened. I think the majority of the world has said, "Hold my beer." There's 150 nations. The deal with Vietnam is real. That's one.

Kara Swisher 45:26 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 45:27 I think there's another small... Uh, and most of these things aren't even deals. They're frameworks to talk about it. The whole world has basically stuck up the middle finger to us and is busy re-establishing or re-routing their supply chain around us. These things have not worked. They're gonna look remarkably similar to the great tariff strategy of Gio Raimondo and other people and other, like, secretaries of commerce and trade who've actually done the work that we've had previously. All we will have done was, was massively incented South Korea and Japan to start talking to China, for Latin America to start talking to Europe, and for people no longer to trust doing business with the US. But this is all, uh, uh... I mean, not, almost nobody has come to the table, as far as I can tell.

Kara Swisher 46:11 Mm-hmm. I agree. I mean, this is just ridiculous. He's still taco. He's still taco. Trump always chickens out. Um, it's just been a lot of, he's a lot of hand-waving, this fella. He's, it's ridiculous. In this case, he's just caused a lot of chaos and actually helped our, helped our competitors, constantly helped them. Anyway, we'll see. 90 days, you got a few more days, Trump.

Scott Galloway 46:30 There you go.

Kara Swisher 46:31 Uh, you got good luck. Good luck with your 90. My favorite thing is Carl Quintanilla from, uh, C, uh, CNBC is-

Scott Galloway 46:38 He's a great follow on Twitter.

Kara Swisher 46:39 ... he's getting very sassy. He's a great follow and on, also on, um-

Scott Galloway 46:42 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 46:42 ... all the other soc-

Scott Galloway 46:43 Yeah, he's great.

Kara Swisher 46:43 He's like-

Scott Galloway 46:44 Love Carl.

Kara Swisher 46:44 ... "Day 67, no deals." Like-

Scott Galloway 46:46 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 46:46 ... he's very sassy. I love him. Anyway, um, one more quick break.

Kara Swisher 46:51 We'll be back for Wins and Fails. Scott, uh, I see that you've put in mu- many notes here in your Wins and Fails. Scott, I'm gonna let you go first.

Scott Galloway 46:58 UVA's been in the, in the press because the president... (sighs) First off, the whole idea of a deal is not what the president is supposed to do. (laughs) The president is supposed to hire really talented people and then create systemic laws and, and treaties that impact everyone individually. It, up until this president, you weren't supposed to target your political enemies or go after individual, promote or punish individuals or companies. That is the definition of an autocracy. And of course, he goes after the president of UVA for, because they had a disagreement over DEI. And for a long time, I have been saying the DEI apparatus of universities should be disassembled, that it had outlived its usefulness and was now eating its tail. Having said that, private universities, uh, or, or universities, public and private, continue to show just remarkable ROI, both on a societal, a cultural, and an economic level. And of course, the president targeted UVA, and the president, being a good man, said, "It's not worth, it's not, th- you know, this is not worth the fight. This is not the beach I wanna die on," and resigned. And I just wanted to highlight what a gift UVA is now, important institution it is.

Kara Swisher 48:08 Right. And just to be clear, just to be cleared up, it's the president of UVA, not the president of the United States.

Scott Galloway 48:12 Oh, I'm sorry. The president of UVA-

Kara Swisher 48:13 It-

Scott Galloway 48:13 ... was, who got in- uh, basically, the president, President Trump targeted this guy because he didn't like his DEI efforts. And the president of UVA has, uh, decided to kind of jump on his sword and step down 'cause he's like, "I don't want the university to feel the wrath of the president who is willing to target individual institutions."... you know, because he has basically, uh, you know, a, a, a beef against me. He did, he did the honorable thing. A lot of people wanted him to stay and fight, but he said, "It's not worth it. I care more about the university than my personal reputation or ego." He did, in my opinion, kind of the heroic thing here. But my win is essentially, a l- when I was right out of graduate school, I started Profit, and we immediately noticed that we had really good luck with these incredibly hardworking people who were also very nice and kind of easygoing. And what did they have in common? They went to UVA. And so (laughs) we started recruiting from Darden and UVA undergrad. And generally, we found kids who went to UVA were essentially, like, the smartest kid in their public high school in the Northeast or in Virginia. And this is an unbelievable institution, and one of the things I love about this institution, I think it set the tone for its success, is that when Jefferson founded University of Virginia, which by the way is on his tombstone. That was the thing he was most proud of. He decided it was the first major academic institution that didn't have a chapel. He wanted it to be the pursuit of enlightenment, of intellectual enlightenment, as opposed to an orthodoxy or a religion. Uh, it's a UNESCO World Heritage Site, with debt-free graduation for low-income students, providing elite education, uh, that can serve as economic mobility, not just privilege. It has this really fantastic, um, construct or ... And, and these, these people I used to work with used to reference it all the time, and that is their honor code and the legacy of their honor code. They have this student-run honor system since 1842 that creates graduates known for integrity across professions, institutionalizing the character democracy requires. They have produced multiple Supreme Court justices, national leaders across party lines, and not only that, a lot of leaders across both parties. And then, uh, uh, uh, unbelievable excellence, consistently rated as one of the three top public universities in the nation at a reasonable cost. And so ... And UVA really does represent America at its best. Jefferson's belief that democracy depends on educated citi- uh, citizens, accessible excellence, honor and integrity, and merit-based opportunity, rather than inin- inherited privilege. Anyways, this... I just thought it was an opportunity. My win is the great University of Virginia, UVA. I think it's an incredible institution that offers-

Kara Swisher 51:01 It is. It's beautiful, too.

Scott Galloway 51:02 Uh, it's, uh, the most bea- The three mo-

Kara Swisher 51:04 I didn't get in. Kara Swisher didn't get in.

Scott Galloway 51:06 Three most beautiful campuses in the nation are, one, Pepperdine, 'cause it overlooks-

Kara Swisher 51:09 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 51:09 ... the coastline Pacific.

Kara Swisher 51:11 It is.

Scott Galloway 51:11 Uh, Duke. Yeah, that's an incredible campus.

Kara Swisher 51:13 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 51:13 And UVA, that architecture and the law- I mean, that is-

Kara Swisher 51:16 Stanford.

Scott Galloway 51:16 It's extraordinary. Anyways-

Kara Swisher 51:17 Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 51:18 My win is, is this gift to America, the great institution that is U, uh, UVA.

Kara Swisher 51:25 Wow. All right, should I do my win, or shall I wait for your fail?

Scott Galloway 51:27 You do your win.

Kara Swisher 51:29 Well, I was just gonna say, Old Guard 2. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 51:34 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 51:34 With Charlize Theron. (laughs) I don't even know what to say, I'm so ... UVA, the great embody American greatness.

Scott Galloway 51:41 The Wahoos.

Kara Swisher 51:41 Can I just say, Charlize Theron embodies lady greatness along with Uma Thurman. And I ... It's getting okay reviews. I ... Fuck you, people who don't like it. It's so good. Old Guard 1 was about this bunch of immortals, and Charlize Theron was the first one, total playing lesbian. I love Charlize Theron when she does the lesbian thing, which she's done before. So good, so good. The new one, she has a new really gay haircut, and it's so ... The whole cast is fantastic. It's kickass. Uh, Uma Thurman's great. Uh, it's, it's obviously gonna be ... There's gonna be a third, Old Guard 3, because of the way they leave it. Um, and I just loved it so much. And there's a whole, the whole lesbians who don't kiss in it that are r- is really good. I know they should've kissed, but I don't care 'cause it was so ... It doesn't matter. It was so lesbian-coded. Um, so I loved the whole thing. Lesbians with swords and, and spears and et cetera. I liked the entire endeavor. And women do dominate this particular ... It's on Netflix, and I love it so very much. And, uh, I just do. It's done by Skydance. I don't always agree with the Ellisons, but thank you, David Ellison, for this one. Um, and, uh, you can go with your l- loss. I haven't got another one.

Scott Galloway 52:50 I think you should do your fail (laughs) . I think-

Kara Swisher 52:51 My fail? Okay. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 52:52 This is too much sea change.

Kara Swisher 52:53 Old Guard 2!

Scott Galloway 52:54 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 52:54 Yeah, yeah, UVA-

Scott Galloway 52:55 Lilo & Stitch.

Kara Swisher 52:55 ... and American greatness and Jefferson's democratic vision made real.

Scott Galloway 53:00 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 53:00 Watch Old Guard 2 and be happy. Now, now let me just tell you-

Scott Galloway 53:03 (sighs)

Kara Swisher 53:03 ... quietly, Amanda's mad I watched it 'cause I forgot I watched Old Guard 1 with her.

Scott Galloway 53:07 Huh.

Kara Swisher 53:07 And I'm gonna watch it again, Amanda. I promise. I'm so sorry. I just, uh ... I watched it on the plane. It was so delightful. I, I will watch it a second time.

Scott Galloway 53:15 Yeah, the whole-

Kara Swisher 53:15 I apologize.

Scott Galloway 53:15 ... you watch without me thing has taken off.

Kara Swisher 53:17 Yeah. He, do you know what she said to me?

Scott Galloway 53:17 That usually happens about year five or six. I'm glad you're gonna have to redo that.

Kara Swisher 53:19 Yes, I know. Can I just say, she just said, "You're not investing in our relationship." She was copying you.

Scott Galloway 53:24 I love that.

Kara Swisher 53:24 And I was like, "I don't need Scott"-

Scott Galloway 53:25 I love that.

Kara Swisher 53:25 "... set back at me 'cause I watched the fantastic lesbian s- show." Uh, my win is ... My loss, my fail is ... I'm gonna read this right now, which is repulsive. US measles cases reach a 33-year record high as outbreaks spread. Uh, how can I put this delicately? Fuck you, RFK Jr., you best friend of measles. How dare you? Uh, this was something we had completely un- Uh, we had it eliminated in 2000. We'd eliminated. Can ... I tell you, I find you completely responsible for this. I, uh, to call ... No, you're a murderer. You're a murderer of children. And people died very quickly in this flooding, um, i- but people are dying slowly. It really puts so many c- people out of, um, in, in danger. And i- you should get a measles booster if you need to. You should check and get one. It's a terrible disease for adults particularly. I got checked, and I pretty much am okay, but I ... One of my vaccines was not, uh, was not current, and I got that. Um, please check, and, and it's very easy to go to a CVS or anywhere else, or a Walgreens, to get checked for that, especially if you're in a certain age group. Um, in the s- I think in the '60s, there was, like, some problem with one of the ... It wasn't ... It didn't last, essentially. It wasn't a problem with the vaccine itself. It was, it was the efficacy of it.So, uh, Robert K- Kennedy Jr., this measles outbreak is, is on you. And what you have done is re- reprehensible and heinous, and, uh, uh, I hope someday, karma will reach you in the same way these poor people have. Uh, even if they didn't take vaccines, not a smart move by parents, but in this case, um, just awful. Fail, fail, fail, every fail in the book. Go ahead, Scott.

Scott Galloway 55:08 Agreed, agreed. Well, you referenced my fail. My fail is the recent expansion of ICE funding, uh, which is less about border enforcement and more about building an ideological enforcement arm. And people always get upset when I compare, um, America to Germany in the '30 or to Trump to Hitler, and you don't have to be Hitler to take a, a page out of his playbook. And this is absolutely out of the playbook. It's a surveillance ... It's a surveillance state light on law. Uh, the Gestapo is powerful not because of its size, and I'm, I am equating ICE to the Gestapo. Let's not dance around. I am comparing the two organizations. It operated outside the law, no warrants, no oversight. ICE is increasingly mirroring the Gestapo, expanding digital surveillance, facial recognition, license plate tracking, all with minimal judicial review. It's a civil agency essentially behaving as an intelligence unit. It's the militarization of bureaucracy. ICE was supposed to be about paperwork, visa overstays, customs violations, and today, they've got drones, tactical teams, armored vehicles. We've essentially militarized a civil agency not to fight terrorists, but to raid meatpacking plants and detain families. And that's not, it's not national security. It's pageantry and fear. And this, this whole notion that Gestapo and the SS were famous for turning identity into a crime, and that is they targeted identity, not behavior. ICE overwhelmingly targets immigrants from specific racial and religious groups backed by rhetoric that frames them as animals or invaders. This is about signaling who belongs and who doesn't, similar to what they were doing to Jews and other, uh, special interest group in Germany in the '30s. That's not law enforcement. It's fascism. Uh, ICE is becoming increasingly unaccountable and untouchable, similar to the Gestapo. ICE operates in legal gray zones. No consistent court oversight, limited transparency, whistleblowers report neglect, abuse, even forced sterilizations, and the agency keeps getting funded no matter the headlines. Fear is policy. This is total intimidation as government. The most chilling parallel is fear between ICE and the Gestapo. The Gestapo made you afraid to speak. ICE makes people afraid to go to court, school, even church, and that's the whole point. Uh, fear keeps people quiet.

Kara Swisher 57:31 Yeah, alligator Alcatraz. What's wrong with them?

Scott Galloway 57:33 (laughs) That, that's-

Kara Swisher 57:34 That one is so fucked up.

Scott Galloway 57:35 ... that's, that's, that's not incarceration or civics, that's fear, and it's also a step towards authoritarianism. And, and even just on the logistical level, the size of the force, ICE in 2025 will be 21,000 employees. That's approximately 7,000 enforcement and removal operations officers. The Gestapo, at its peak in 1944, was 32,000 for an entire continent under Nazi occupation, and we're now funding ICE at five times what Nazi Germany spent on its secret police adjusted for 20, $24. We're gonna spend about 11 billion. Estimates are that the Gestapo required two billion in funding. So, we're doing so with less resistance and more bureaucracy. ICE is already operating with a Gestapo-level scale in terms of headcount relative to its jurisdiction, and it's not fighting World War II. It's deporting line cooks and Uber drivers. And this isn't ... I, I don't think I'm being an alarmist here. Fascism doesn't su-

Kara Swisher 58:29 Also, their outfits suck. Their out- uh, I agree.

Scott Galloway 58:31 They have masks.

Kara Swisher 58:32 Their out- also, the, the masks, the-

Scott Galloway 58:34 They, they're wearing masks.

Kara Swisher 58:35 ... they have masks. If they really believe in what they're doing, the Nazis didn't have masks. They wore their outfits, but not masks.

Scott Galloway 58:40 Yeah, they had their brown shirts. What's worse, a brown shirt-

Kara Swisher 58:42 It's retarded.

Scott Galloway 58:43 ... or a m- a brown shirt or a mask?

Kara Swisher 58:45 Yikes.

Scott Galloway 58:45 So I, I don't think this is-

Kara Swisher 58:46 Yeah, it's like, has a Star Wars resonance, don't you think? Like a little-

Scott Galloway 58:49 I don't think ... Well-

Kara Swisher 58:49 ... Remember on Star Wars, the-

Scott Galloway 58:50 No, I, I, I think it has a Nazi (laughs) -

Kara Swisher 58:52 ... Storm Troopers, they had masks.

Scott Galloway 58:52 ... reference. Look, but-

Kara Swisher 58:54 No, I get that, but th- they were based on the Nazis, but if you recall, the masks on, on, in that metaphor, in a lot of ways. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 59:01 So fascism doesn't start with death camps. You don't just wake up to Auschwitz. It starts with bureaucracy, badges, and silence, and if we don't challenge these tools now, they'll be used on all of us later. So (sighs) this is, uh, uh, my loss is, uh, what is becoming an American Gestapo with mass and with bureaucratic language and five times the funding and has a, a, a, a number of striking resemblances. Essentially, Trump now has his own private army under his control, and it's there for intimidation, it's there for fear mixed with pageantry, and again, and I keep coming back to this, folks, if you believe that we cannot be that nation again, you don't know history. Germany was the most enlightened society in history. It was pro-immigrant, it was pro-gay, it had a thriving economy, and then it had economic shocks, too many young men without, without prospects, a strongman, and, uh, uh, a level of, uh, basically a media that decided to demonize immigrants and it militarized and turned ... So anyways, my fail is the increasing militarization of what is supposed to be a civic, um, a civic agency, and that is ICE, which has remarkable echoes of, uh, the Gestapo in late '30s and early '40s Germany. God, I'm so serious today.

Kara Swisher 1:00:23 I know you are. Um, I, I may add that tech companies are working hand-in-glove with these things, getting their, um, getting, they're, they're at the trough of this particular trough, and they will be, in general, 'cause they do not care, as I've said over and over again, and they will be part of this. And surveillance, we should all be scared of a surveillance economy, and Scott is 100% correct, and-... Bogart too? Yes. But this is much more-

Unidentified co‑host/producer voice 1:00:46 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:00:46 ... important. Um, anyway-

Unidentified co‑host/producer voice 1:00:47 I'm more interested, I'm more interested in lesbian-

Kara Swisher 1:00:49 But you should watch it anyway because we're all gonna need-

Unidentified co‑host/producer voice 1:00:49 ... Charlie Serone.

Kara Swisher 1:00:50 Uh, the lesbians are gonna save you. We're g-

Unidentified co‑host/producer voice 1:00:52 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:00:52 The lesbians are gonna have to save you with our spears and, and kick-ass-ness. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nyamag.com/pivot to submit a question for this show or call 855-51-PIVOT. And I just want to say, Scott, I like serious Scott just as much as I like penis joke Scott.

Unidentified co‑host/producer voice 1:01:11 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:01:11 Anyway, elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, on the latest episode of On With Kara Swisher, I spoke with journalists Isaac Arnsdorf, Josh Dawsey, and Tyler Pager about their new book on the 2024 election. It's actually quite a really interesting book. Let's listen to a clip of Tyler talking about how Kamala Harris didn't have enough distance from Joe Biden.

Unidentified guest from 'On With Kara Swisher' clip 1:01:30 The way that they framed her as the vice president was in the room for all the big decisions, the last person to leave-

Narrator 1:01:35 Mm-hmm.

Unidentified guest from 'On With Kara Swisher' clip 1:01:36 ... and intimately involved in everything. Now, that wasn't true, but that was the narrative that they were out there saying. And so it then makes it harder to be like, "Actually, I disagreed with X, Y and Z policy," because then she opens herself up to, "Okay, so why did you go along with it? Why didn't you speak up?"

Kara Swisher 1:01:50 That's a really good point. Uh, we'll see if she... She may be running for governor, so we'll see if she comes back and what happens. Um, it shouldn't-

Unidentified co‑host/producer voice 1:01:54 Do you think that's a good idea? I'm curious what you think of that.

Kara Swisher 1:01:57 I don't know. I think she should wait around to become a Supreme Court justice.

Unidentified co‑host/producer voice 1:02:00 Yeah, I agree with you.

Kara Swisher 1:02:01 I think they should put her up for Supreme Court justice. Um, I don't know. She could really drive Trump crazy. At her best, she c- she really drives Trump crazy. And so, in that regard, being Governor of California gives you a nice place to do that, uh, as... I think Newsom has taken advantage of it. So, in that regard, yes, I think if... Kamala at her best could be very good as a foil. Um, but if the Democrats take over... By the way, the first thing the Democrats should do if they get control of Congress is shut down that ICE funding rather significantly, turn it around. Anyway, um, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out.

Unidentified co‑host/producer voice 1:02:41 Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, Kevin Oliver and Corinne Roth. Ernie and Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Miss Severo and Dan Chalon. Ashok Koirala, Vox Media's Executive Producer of Podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a great rest of the week. It's good to see you again.