86-Year-Old: “You Are Living a Life That Isn’t Yours (Here’s How to Know)” | Dr. James Hollis

1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:00

   How do you define a life of meaning?

2. JHDr. James Hollis0:04

   That's a good question. I think meaning is not something we go out and find as if it's, uh, hiding somewhere in Brighton or something. Meaning rises out as an experience when whatever is going on within us or whatever we're relating to in our outer world is in accord with the agenda of our soul. Now, I know that's very vague, but, you know, to give a- a- I think an example, let's say I'm supposed to adopt a certain career or a certain, um, athletic regimen or a, a certain ideology, and that will, quote, "make me happy" or bring me meaning, and perhaps it will to a certain degree. But in the long run, if I'm giving my energies to something that's really not in alignment with what's true within me at the deepest level, a, a level which I may not know much about consciously. Um, so I had my own experience of that. I think I told you the first time we met. I'd achieved all my outer goals in my mid-thirties and then was hit with a serious depression. And it was, it was an opportunity for me to sort of go within. It was a necessity, not an opportunity [chuckles] , it was a necessity to go within and to explore why is the psyche autonomously withdrawing its approval and support from the places that I want to put it, or the world tells me I ought to be putting it there. And, uh, that was the beginning of a different kind of journey of recovery of personal authority and, and, uh, striking out in some very large and new directions. So me- meaning is something experiential. I think it's not conceptual. We may, from the conscious standpoint, assess things from time to time, of course. There's a place for consciousness here. But it's, it's not like meaning is hidden somewhere and we have to go find it. Because, you know, many times, for example, people are in extreme circumstances, but intrapsychically, they are well. They are in the right places they should be. As Jean-Paul Sartre said, "Sometimes the person who is in prison is freer than the one who imprisons." And I think what he was getting at there is maybe the person who's the imprisoner is, uh, a functionary of the state, let's say, or he does it because it's his job or even a certain ideology. But the prisoner has a sense, my being here is a statement of my values, or my being here is an expression of my willingness to care deeply about some value. And so I can have a sense of great meaning intrapsychically, even when my outer world is quite conflictual and even painful. So I don't think meaning is something we choose, although we can choose paths that bring us into that accord. It's something we can experience-

3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:15

   Mm

4. JHDr. James Hollis3:15

   ... and we experience the loss of it. So many times, as we all know, people have achieved their goals, and there's a dissatisfaction to it. There's a sense after a while of indifference or boredom or ultimately depression. And in those moments, what you, you see there is there's an autonomy of something inside of each of us, that which I would also say knows us better than we know ourselves. It has its own agenda. And you can call it the agenda of nature seeking to express itself-

5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:51

   Mm

6. JHDr. James Hollis3:51

   ... or the will of divinity, if you so wish to, to use that metaphor. Um, and that's something transcendent to ordinary ego consciousness. And when I'm in right relationship to that, even if everything else around me is troubled, then, then there's that sense of interiority that, uh, supports me. You can put it this way. What supports us when nothing supports us? Now, I've learned the hard way, and I know other individuals have as well, that even when our normal coping strategies or ideas about self and world are no longer working very well, there's something inside that still can sustain us and pull us through those times in very meaningful ways. And it'd be nice to be able to package that and merchandise that, but it's, it's something-

7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:53

   Yeah

8. JHDr. James Hollis4:53

   ... autonomous. It lies wholly without my will to call it up. Although, as I said, I can use my will to perhaps make those sorts of choices. That might be difficult choices, but which bring me into that right relationship.

9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:09

   Yeah. I love this idea that there's something deep within us that knows us better than we know ourselves, this underlying force or energy that underpins everything that goes on in our life. Right at the start, though, I think we should define a couple of terms that you've used. You've used the term ego consciousness, you've used the term psyche, uh, intrapsychic awareness. And for people perhaps who are not familiar with those terms, could you give us a little bit of an overview so that we can follow along?

10. JHDr. James Hollis5:48

    Sure. Ego consciousness is my conscious awareness of myself and my environment. So I'm conscious at this moment that you and I are having a conversation. So ego consciousness is that which we usually tend to think of as ourselves.Uh, the, the psyche is the Greek word for soul. And in analytic psychology, the psyche is the totality of the human being. It's-- It expresses itself through the body, through our emotions, our cognitions, and, and so forth. But it's also a manifestation of that autonomous other. The, the psyche is properly understood a verb. If it were a noun, it would show up on an MRI or a CAT scan. It, it's not. It's, it's an energy system. It's the energy of life. It enters mysteriously at birth. At death, it mysteriously departs. From whence it's come, whither it goes, we don't know. We really don't know. People speculate, but we don't know. And it's understandable that one sort of identify who one is by one's conscious world. So when people lose their job or they're forced to retire, or an illness removes them from some activity, uh, there, there's a great sense of loss, of course. But it's like, that's not who you are, that's what you've been doing, or that's how you've manifested in the world, but that's, that's not who you are. There is this autonomous other, again, that knows r- what's right for us. What, what the nature of that is is at heart a mystery.

11. SPSpeaker7:27

    Mm-hmm.

12. JHDr. James Hollis7:28

    So to take an obvious example, you know, you as a physician didn't heal people, but you could bring about the conditions in which healing could occur. He-healing is something that occurs from within the organism itself, and learning how to live in accord with that is, is part of how one becomes a healer, not just a technician. So the, the intrapsychic means what's going on inside of me. You and I are engaged at this conscious level at this moment, but who's monitoring the death and rebirth of cells in us, right?

13. SPSpeaker8:03

    Mm-hmm.

14. JHDr. James Hollis8:03

    What agency, what governmental agency is digesting our, our lunch, you see? Um, what, what's growing our toenails? All of these myriad operations are going on autonomously. And out of that, there is a, a, a sense of a, a kind of nature that is expressing itself in the world, but that's the natural function. The epiphenomenon, which is to say the secondary function, is to be separate from that and to observe that. I, I can see on here I need to get a haircut, for example, right [chuckles] ? So that's consciousness paying attention to some detail, but I'm not growing the hair, for example.

15. SPSpeaker8:48

    Mm-hmm.

16. JHDr. James Hollis8:49

    Um, and, and underneath that, that's why the question then is, to what degree is my ego consciousness, that is to say my ordinary awareness, in accord with or aligned with? Now, early on as children, of course, we're tiny, dependent, and vulnerable. We know what's right for us. We cry when we're hungry. We sleep when we need to sleep, and so forth. But that core vulnerability and the need for protection and so forth makes us dependent upon our environment. And the more we're dependent on the environment, the more we have to engage in trade-offs, which is how we begin to get separated from that presence within. Now, recovering a relationship to that is really about recovering a, a personal sense of authority. We have it when we're born. It's called instinct. We get socialized, and necessarily so, of course. But that socialization ultimately becomes costly because, again, it's separated. So for example, there is no one who hasn't felt shame of some kind, or there's no one who doesn't have mixed messages about sexuality, for example. So those, those are culturally acquired experiences inevitably that can separate a person from his or her instinctual, uh, uh, guidance system. That's why when there is a significant violation of the agenda of our own nature, it will always show up pathologically.

17. SPSpeaker10:32

    Mm-hmm.

18. JHDr. James Hollis10:33

    Now, when I say pathologically, I don't mean that in any judgmental way. Pathos is the Greek word for suffering. In other words, it will be some form-- it will cause some form of suffering.

19. SPSpeaker10:43

    Yeah.

20. JHDr. James Hollis10:43

    You know, as I gave the example, a person prepares for a certain career, assumes this will carry me my entire life, and after a certain period, even if one has been productive, maybe one has been rewarded for that productivity, one finds it no longer quickens the spirit when you enter the office or no, no longer feels, uh, something that energize. In fact, it depletes.

21. SPSpeaker11:08

    Yeah.

22. JHDr. James Hollis11:09

    And, and then you see that other within us has expressed its, uh, intent. It's expressed its concern. And so it's typical for us to keep rolling to say, "Well, I'll, I'll [chuckles] take a pill for this," or, "I'll go skiing next weekend," or something like that, all of which may be useful at some point, but sort of misses the point. And I've learned the hard way, and I emphasize the hard way, over the years that if I need to know what's right for me, it could range from the mundane, like how to start an essay, for example, or what to deal with some emotional struggle, or w- uh, h-how to approach a client's, uh, uh, troubles. I sort of put it in there, speaking metaphorically. I, I put it in there and something works on it.

23. SPSpeaker12:03

    Mm-hmm.

24. JHDr. James Hollis12:03

    And it gets back to me. I can't explain that. It gets back to me, not necessarilyIn a predictable way. Not necessarily having a report on my desk by five o'clock in the afternoon as I would prefer, but it'll come as a dream three days from now, or I'll be driving down the, the motorway and something's suddenly clear to me, or I wake up and I looked at the situation from a different angle.

25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:34

    Yeah.

26. JHDr. James Hollis12:35

    And that tells me what is right for me. Then, of course, I have to mobilize whatever intentionality, sometimes including courage, to, to live that in, in the world. And if we do that... This is not narcissism. It could sound like that at first glance, but it's not. It actually calls the ego consciousness into service. Now, if the project of the first half of life is to figure out what they're asking of you out there, you know, what do my mom and dad want from me? What, [laughs] what, what does the school teacher want from me? What does the partner want? What does the employer want from me?

27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:13

    Mm-hmm.

28. JHDr. James Hollis13:13

    What does the state want from me? Et cetera, et cetera. Tho- those, those are all, again, adaptations to the world that fate has thrust us into.

29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:22

    Yeah.

30. JHDr. James Hollis13:23

    However, [laughs] in the second half of life, we have to ask, all right, now I've sort of created a provisional identity. I-- maybe I have a family, may have a home, may have a job, et cetera, and that's how many people live their lives. You know? It's, it's a kind of rote repetition.

Episode duration: 1:15:05