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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Life Advice From 80+ Year Olds You Didn’t Know You Needed

FREE Guide ‘The 5 Tiny Habits to Change Your Life in 30 Days’ HERE - https://links.drchatterjee.com/4mdeaLg This episode is brought to you by: AG1: Get 10 FREE Travel Packs and Welcome Kit worth $80 visit: https://bit.ly/43FwxQl WATCH THE FULL EPISODES: "Don't Learn It Too Late!" - How To Get Back On Track & Design Your Dream Life | Dr. Ellen Langer https://youtu.be/9194bBMooVQ 85-Year-Old: "It Took Me 50+ Years To Learn What I'm About To Share With You" | James Hollis https://youtu.be/CIA3oLncnPk Auschwitz Survivor Reveals The Secret To Overcoming Any Obstacle In Life | Dr. Edith Eger https://youtu.be/yUSqNnEY8y0 Stay Young Forever: 103-Year-Old Shares The Life Lessons Everyone Learns Too Late | Gladys McGarey https://youtu.be/L7VHiX5HP_w #feelbetterlivemore #feelbetterlivemorepodcast ------- Order MAKE CHANGE THAT LASTS. US & Canada version https://amzn.to/3RyO3SL, UK version https://amzn.to/3Kt5rUK ----- Follow Dr Chatterjee at: Website: https://drchatterjee.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drchatterjee Twitter: https://twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Newsletter: https://drchatterjee.com/subscription DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostGladys McGareycameo
Apr 17, 20261h 26mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:24

    Belief as a health driver: self-fulfilling sickness vs protective mindset

    1. RC

      How much does our belief around health impact our health?

    2. EL

      Yeah. Well, you know that I agree with you that the impact is potentially enormous. Um, but in many ways. You know, that if you think you're getting sick, then you do getting sick things. Um, and you may stay in bed, uh, you may avoid relationships for the moment. Um, you avoid those things that are fun and exciting, and it turns out those things you're avoiding are actually good for your health. Um, and staying in bed is probably bad for your health, and so you're making yourself sicker. It be- and that's one way it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You know, I had this thing where, um, again, it's an anecdote, um, but I'll, I'll think I'm getting something. Doesn't matter what it is. And then the next day I forgot that I was getting [laughs] it and I'm always better. Um, and you know, but when... The problem with an anecdote is we're talking about a sample, a very small sample size-

    3. RC

      Mm

    4. EL

      ... sample size of one. And, um, but I, like you, think that I'm almost invulnerable. Uh, if I get anything, it goes away very quickly.

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. EL

      Um, you know, n- there can be many explanations for that.

    7. RC

      Of course.

    8. EL

      But I think the explanation that somehow my attitude and the way I live my life, um, is a protective factor, even if ultimately were found to be wrong, is still right because if you're gonna be there again, you should be alive for it.

    9. RC

      Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, th- this is such a- an interesting topic, right? And-

    10. EL

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... i- in my latest book, Ellen, I write about the relationship between, that's there in the literature, between, uh, people who hold onto resentment and don't express their emotions, and certain chronic illnesses like autoimmune disease and cancer, right? And I-

    12. EL

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... I say very clear these are associations, right? So they're not proving causation, but nonetheless there's, there-

    14. EL

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... there's a lot there in the literature. Gabor Mate has covered this in detail in his book, The Myth of Normal. Um, and it also correlates with what many clinicians who look for these things have seen. I spent so long on this section 'cause I didn't wanna get this misinterpreted. And I, what I said, and this I think is relevant to what you've just said, is I say, "Listen, it would be easy not to say this," right? I'm not saying this to put blame on people, but if this is a potential contributory factor, then if you don't know that information, you're not inclined-

    16. EL

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... to do anything and change anything. Whereas, uh, my goal is to try and help people. I think, like you, like we're, we're doing what we do. We wanna help people. We wanna help-

    18. EL

      Mm-hmm

    19. RC

      ... people be more compassionate and less judgemental and go, "Actually, this information is important to know."

    20. EL

      And you know, interesting that even if, and I agree with you completely, I think the information is crucial and correct, but even if it turned out to be wrong, it's still right. It's right in that believing it leads you to act in a way where you're actually alive. You're feeding all the positive things about, um, uh, your life.

  2. 3:24 – 5:51

    Placebo power: noticing symptom variability as the real “medicine”

    1. RC

      Yeah. This whole, this whole area is deeply fascinating to me. Um, to finish off this conversation, and I hope we have many more, Ellen, because I've not even scratched the surface of what I wanted to talk to you about. In the section in the book on placebos, which is amazing, and this really fits in with your idea about the importance of, uh, mindfulness.

    2. EL

      Mm.

    3. RC

      You say this: "I believe that some clinical trial outcomes are positive because they encourage people to notice symptom variability." There's totally somewhere inside of me that really connects, and I thought, yeah, it's, it's like what we said before about awareness, right? Once you start bringing attention to something, you start to change your relationship with it. So can you explain what you meant-

    4. EL

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... by that powerful phrase?

    6. EL

      Yeah. Well, yeah, sure. What I, uh... Well, everybody knows that, you know, placebo is something inert. You believe it's going to be effective, and hence it's effective. So if I take some medication and I think it's going to, to be positive, now I'm looking for ways that it's positive. And we said, you know, "Seek and you shall find." We always end up doing hypothesis-confirming, uh, analysis. And so if I notice it's fine, then I'm also more likely to notice perhaps in a moment when it's not so fine, and then that naturally gives rise to the question, why was it fine in this moment and not in the other moment? Which then I can start testing, and that leads to, um, effects, positive effects across, um, all chronic illnesses that we've looked at. So it's a way of explaining, you know, placebos. We go back to placebos. It's so funny because I think placebos, and I'm sure you agree with me, are our strongest medicine.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. EL

      And yet placebos, if somebody finds out they have a placebo, they go, "Well, no, yeah. Uh, what do you mean it was just a placebo?" They think it's real. Not to realize that I think the effectiveness of all medication is largely, I believe, placebo. Now, why are placebos given such a bad name? Well, you know, f- uh, I think it comes from the pharmaceutical industry, right? That in order to bring a drug to market, this drug has to outperform the placebo. If it doesn't, damn it, I, you know, couldn't make those billions of dollars, um, without realizing that how effective this placebo actually is, uh, across all disorders.

    9. RC

      Yeah.

  3. 5:51 – 8:07

    Nocebos and expectation traps: chambermaids, ipecac, poison ivy, psychedelics

    1. EL

      And then there, you know, there are some people, most people are amenable to placebos. Not everybody. Um, and I think everybody should be. And you know, if I, uh, had the time, I would pursue that. Um, but yeah, you know, placebos... A- and it's interesting that when you talk to me briefly about the chambermaid study, this was actually a nocebo study, which is important in its own right. Now, people know placebos. You take something that's a nothing to lead to a positive, um, response.

    2. RC

      Mm.

    3. EL

      A nocebo, you take real medication and you believe it's not effective, and it wipes out the effect.

    4. RC

      So explain that in the context of the chambermaid study. They're not-

    5. EL

      Yeah

    6. RC

      ... taking a medication.

    7. EL

      No, no, no, no, because people are exercising but they're not getting any of the benefits of exercise because they don't realize they're exercising.

    8. RC

      Yeah.

    9. EL

      So we say all of these things that are good for you, you know, um, many if not all are good for you if you believe they're good for you. That element of belief is not inconsequential in any of these circumstances. You know, so there was a study, uh, with ipecac. So, um, I don't remember who did this, but, you know, so ipecac is what you take to make you vomit in case you've accidentally or on purpose ingested poison. All right. So whoever this was took ipecac with people who are having trouble doing too much vomiting, and they're given the ipecac and they're told it'll stop the vomiting. And you know what happens? It stops the vomiting. Um, people who are rubbed with, uh, poison ivy who believe it's not poison ivy, or rubbed with another leaf that they believe is poison ivy that isn't poison ivy, you know, get the rash, uh, when they believe, um-

    10. RC

      Yeah

    11. EL

      ... it's poison.

    12. RC

      I, I, I spoke with Camilla Nord, this neuroscientist from Cambridge University, and Camilla basically shared some research showing that in psychedelic trials, some of them when you're given a placebo and you think you're taking a psychedelic-

    13. EL

      Like-

    14. RC

      ... but you're not

    15. EL

      ... yeah, you go wild.

    16. RC

      You, you still hallucinate. You know, in medicine, and I think with the public, we've used the term before, "Oh, it's just a placebo effect," right?

    17. EL

      Right.

    18. RC

      So, uh-

    19. EL

      You just have gotta change.

  4. 8:07 – 11:07

    Vision isn’t static: context, meaning, and daily rhythms change what you see

    1. RC

      Exactly. As in underplaying the value. Um, you mentioned vision before. People think of, you know, vision's static.

    2. EL

      Oh.

    3. RC

      It is what it is, right? It's been-

    4. EL

      No, just think about it, how mindless it is that you go to the doctor, you're shown this, uh, Snellen eye chart with letters out of context in black and white.

    5. RC

      [laughs]

    6. EL

      And then you're given a number to tell you how well you see. I, you know, I don't know about you, but if I'm hungry, I see that restaurant sign much further away-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. EL

      ... than if I'm not hungry. I see things in color different from black and white. I see things that are meaningful differently from things that are meaningless. And more important is that for me personally, my vision, I believe, is better from 11:00 to 1:00 than it is earlier or later in the day. Things vary. Your vision varies. Now, if you knew that, um, you started to have trouble seeing around 4:00 in the afternoon, rather than get eyeglasses that you're gonna wear constantly, you had, um, a, an energy bar. And, uh, the energy bars, this gets me crazy also. It's a candy bar. We call it an energy bar, and then it has very positive effects, you know?

    9. RC

      [laughs] That's a great point.

    10. EL

      So I always laugh, you know, that, um, you take a, a cake and you put it in a muffin tin, so now you have muffins. And if you ask people, um-

    11. RC

      [laughs]

    12. EL

      ... "Is this muffin healthier than the same amount of cake?" You know, yeah, the muffin is healthier because, you know, changing the name is very important. Uh, okay, be that as it may, um, yeah, so our vision varies. Now what happens is that you're given this number, you then get eyeglasses, and you train your body not to be able to see.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. EL

      To my mind, it would be like, you know, it's fine if you're having trouble going to the bathroom to take a, a laxative, but if you take a laxative every day, you're teaching your body to rely on the laxative, and I think that's the mistake.

    15. RC

      Yeah. I, um, the, the stuff about eyes and, um... If it feels like you've forgotten how to feel joy, like you're surviving and not really living, I've created a free guide to help you, because happiness isn't something you chase, it's something you train your brain to feel. I've created a free guide, The Happiness Prescription: 5 Daily Rituals That Rewire Your Brain for Joy. These are the exact rituals I've used with many of my patients to help them feel alive again, even in the middle of stress, fatigue, or loss. To get your free guide now, click the first link in the description box below or scan the QR code on screen. Vision is, is super fascinating, okay? I, I think I read it in your book this morning, this whole concept of how you look at that Snellen chart determines its outcome as well.

  5. 11:07 – 14:43

    Expectation engineering in eye tests: reversing the chart to improve acuity

    1. EL

      Yes. Well, so, so for me, I know I'm bizarre. When I, you know, before I did that study, I'm, um, being, my eyes are being examined. I'm looking at the charts. I say, "Wait a second. You know, you're creating in me the expectation that soon I'm not gonna be able to see," 'cause these letters keep getting smaller and smaller.

    2. RC

      Yeah. So you start with something you can do, and then you go, "Oh, we're about to catch you where you can't see."

    3. EL

      Right. Exactly. So what we did is a study where we reversed it.

    4. RC

      [laughs]

    5. EL

      It starts with small letters, gets larger and larger, creating the expectation that soon you would be able to see, and people can see what they couldn't see before. Now, most of the time when you're doing the Snellen eye chart, it's around two-thirds of the way down that you start to have trouble, most people. So what we did was we started the eye chart a third of the way smaller letters, so now two-thirds of the way are much smaller letters. And again, you can see what you couldn't see before.

    6. RC

      Can I just pause you there? Two-thirds, right? Two-thirds comes up in the Snellen chart. Two-thirds came in, in the fatigue study as well.

    7. EL

      I know. I-

    8. RC

      What, what is going on with the human brain?

    9. EL

      I don't understand. I have this thing for two-thirds and for clocks-

    10. RC

      [laughs]

    11. EL

      ... it seems. [laughs]

    12. RC

      No, but I, I, uh... This stuff about vision, this literally played out for me a couple months ago, right? So, um, I, I'd been thinking about eye, uh, you know, glasses and contact lenses, thinking, "Okay, this is quite a novel concept when it comes to, you know, the human experience to have these things on my eyes so that I can see." And if you think about this in an evolutionary context, of course, people didn't have contact lenses, um, and glasses. And there are many reasons for that, the need for distant vision out in the plains, whatever it might be. Okay, there's many reasons for that.But I got my... I, I've been looking into how one can reverse myopia naturally, and it, and it looks so there's quite a lot of people who are doing this. So I'm, you know, I may bring someone on the podcast at some point to talk about this. But I'm currently looking at it and, and I'm, I'm fascinated by it. And one of the things they talk about is that your vision is different at different parts of the day. If you're tired, your vision isn't as good. If it's dark-

    13. EL

      So 20 years ago when we wrote this, what's sad to me is it takes so long.

    14. RC

      Yeah.

    15. EL

      One would think since all of this work is in the service of improving our health, our wellbeing, making us happier, you know, and so on, that once people hear about it, it, it would just go like wildfire, right? You know, I mean, people still today are just learning about, let's say, the counterclockwise study.

    16. RC

      Yeah.

    17. EL

      You know, it was how many years ago? 40 years ago.

    18. RC

      Yeah. That's how slow it is. But, but I... But Ellen, I literally had my eyes checked at 5:00 PM, and I was a bit-

    19. EL

      Hmm

    20. RC

      ... jet lagged. I think I'd just come back from America, and they wanted to put my power up with my glasses. And I said, "Hey, wait a minute." I said, "Listen, um, would you mind if I come back in two weeks and I'll book a morning appointment?" And I paid for another appointment, and totally different. I didn't even-

    21. EL

      Oh, yeah

    22. RC

      ... thought my power could go down.

    23. EL

      Definitely.

    24. RC

      And I was like, how many people-

    25. EL

      Yeah

    26. RC

      ... are, are on a prescription that is given based upon the time of day and that it is-

    27. EL

      Of course. I think most

    28. RC

      ... it's mind-boggling.

    29. EL

      Most.

    30. RC

      Yeah. It's mind-boggling.

  6. 14:43 – 18:30

    Rethinking “senior moments”: what looks like decline may be values and attention

    1. RC

      Before we finish, I wanna bring up something you said before that surprised me in the context of your work. Okay. So there was a moment where you lost your train of thought-

    2. EL

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... and you said, "Excuse me, I'm having a senior moment." Right.

    4. EL

      I was joking.

    5. RC

      Yeah, I know you're joking.

    6. EL

      But all these people then... But now the reason I said that was only because the other day, um, I thought I was so clever when I had said to somebody, "I'm having a junior moment." [laughs]

    7. RC

      No, the reason I, I'm bringing it up to, to illustrate a really important point from your work, which is the importance of our perceptions, and there's a beautiful section in the book where you, you write, you know, here, I've underlined it. "It's interesting to ask how much of the presumed memory loss attributed to the old is, is a result of this difference in perspective," right? So, you, you know, that's on the-

    8. EL

      Well, it's not just perspective. Now, I think that much of the time, life changes as you get older. Your values change. So when I was young, um, as an up-and-coming whatever, and you introduced me to some of your friends, I'd make sure I knew their names. At this point in my life, frankly, I don't care. So you introduce me to your friends' names, and I'm not gonna know them. Now, later, when we discover that I don't know your friend's name, the mistake people often make is to say that they've forgotten. I didn't forget because I didn't learn it in the first place.

    9. RC

      Yeah.

    10. EL

      And also, you know, what people I think need to pay attention to is imagine how awful life would be if we remembered everything.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. EL

      It, it'd be hard to get... You know, forgetting is, is an advantage.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. EL

      Um, and, um, most of, uh, what we need to remember, we'll remember.

    15. RC

      Yes. And what I was getting to with, um, highlighting the fact that you called it a senior moment, right-

    16. EL

      Mm

    17. RC

      ... is this whole idea that I've also had mind blanks when I'm doing this podcast before, right? But because I'm at a different age to you-

    18. EL

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... um, I'm not gonna call it a senior moment, right? And-

    20. EL

      Fair enough. Okay, so that's cute. But let me tell you what I... Before I lecture my health class-

    21. RC

      [laughs]

    22. EL

      ... about aging, uh, I ask them a question. I say, "Okay, what was the last..." These are Harvard students. This is the best of the best, right? Um, I say, "What was the last thing I said on Thursday?" So the, our, you know, class meets Tuesday and Thursday. So it was this Tuesday. What was the last thing I said on Thursday? Nobody remembers. And I go, "Ah, [laughs] you know, you all better check to see whether you're suffering from dementia." [laughs] You know, that, um, young people are not infrequently forgetful. The difference is, uh, they're fine with that. They don't see it as the beginning of some impending terrible diagnosis.

    23. RC

      Yeah. And, and, and I think it's so important that this idea that if our expectation starts to impact our physiology, we've gotta be very careful about what-

    24. EL

      Right

    25. RC

      ... we think as we get older. We have to change this perception that old people are frail, and they can't do much-

    26. EL

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... and they need help, right? We need to change that. And there's, again, there's quite a provocative section, um, in that section in your book where you talk about this idea that someone of your age, and I, I certainly won't ask you how old you are.

    28. EL

      I'm 77.

    29. RC

      You're 77. Okay. So someone of your age wouldn't typically be seen in miniskirts or have miniskirts marketed to them, right? And I, I really liked the way you put that because it basically, the cultural norm is a 77-year-old lady probably shouldn't be in a miniskirt. It's not appropriate for a woman of that age, but maybe it is. Maybe-

    30. EL

      Yeah

  7. 18:30 – 22:15

    Age-related cues all around us: uniforms, signage, and the culture of decrepitude

    1. EL

      Yeah. Yeah. The, um, the point of that particular research was to show that there are age-related cues all around us, um, that unbeknownst to us are determining, um, our longevity, our health, and, and so on. So there what we did was compare people whose jobs require that they be in uniform.So if you're in a uniform, uh, and you're 25, and you're wearing the same basic uniform, [laughs] different version of it, but, um, uh, for the next 40 years, you're missing an age-related cue. And those people do better-

    2. RC

      Yeah

    3. EL

      ... because they don't have that age-related cue.

    4. RC

      A- and we see, you know, here, and I'm sure it's the same in the US, we have, you know, near, uh, residential homes, there are signs on the roads with an elderly couple, you know, hunched over with a walking stick saying, "Be careful." And, and again, that's a, that's a, an age-related cue-

    5. EL

      Right

    6. RC

      ... that on the face of it is there for, for a reason, so people can pay attention and be considerate, right? But there's also a negative consequence of that, or a potentially-

    7. EL

      Right

    8. RC

      ... negative consequence.

    9. EL

      Although there's one thing that older people do, which is in- for all other groups, there's an in-group bias. Everybody prefers their own to people who are different, except the elderly. I hate that word now that I'm so old.

    10. RC

      [laughs]

    11. EL

      But, uh, so let me give an example. Uh, when my father was alive, I'm picking him up at the airport. He's now, uh, at that point, I think he was 88. Um, and I said, "Dad, how was the flight?" And he said, "It was okay, but there were too many old people on the plane."

    12. RC

      [laughs] One of the most important pillars for our health is, of course, nutrition. But I think because of our busy, stressed out lives, so many people are struggling despite their best intentions. So many patients over the years have told me that they know what they should be doing, [laughs] but they're struggling to actually do it. And that's why I'm a fan of AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that contains over 70 vitamins, minerals, and other ingredients that are designed to make nutrition really easy. It's been in my own life for over six years now. It's simple, it's tasty, it's convenient, and it forms a part of my morning routine. People will routinely tell me that taking AG1 regularly has improved their focus, their cognition, their energy. Some people even tell me that they drink less coffee when they're taking AG1. And there's research out there showing us that taking AG1 regularly can improve specific markers of your gut health, which is really good for your immune health. So if you're looking to upgrade your own nutrition in a simple, tasty, and convenient way, try AG1. To get a free bottle of vitamin D and five free Travel Packs, go to drinkag1.com/livemore.

    13. EL

      Distancing himself from the group. Um, and you know, which is a good thing in this context because we have the view of old as, uh, only representing decrepitude.

    14. RC

      Yeah.

    15. EL

      Wh- which is sad because, you know, you live your life the right way, it just keeps getting better and better. And, um, you know, it, it's a shame for people to dread that, their future. And they're not dreading old age, they're dreading pain. Um, in fact, I think most of the fear of death has nothing to do with death. It has to do with, uh, disease and all sorts of things that, you know, one can live a very long life without, um, illness.

  8. 22:15 – 25:51

    Death, fear, and living fully: “too busy living” and the power of uncertainty

    1. RC

      Now that you are 77, how do you think about death?

    2. EL

      Um, I don't, you know, I, I don't tend to think about [laughs] death. I'm too busy living. Um-

    3. RC

      Are you scared of death?

    4. EL

      No. No. Um, you know, my picture of death is, you know, um, going to sleep. Remember, you know, I've been studying, um, old age since I was very young, and I see all these... I know lots of people now, not lots, but several people now who are over 100, and they don't seem to be afraid of death.

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. EL

      Uh, I ended my Counterclockwise book with a story where I'm, I'm talking to one of these older friends, she was 90-something, and she said, "You know, Ellen, I'm not afraid of dying, but living is sure fun."

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. EL

      And I think that represents my own view.

    9. RC

      Ellen, it's been such a joy, uh, talking to you. I, I've, I've been looking at your work and your research for years. I think it's completely game changing. I, I really hope the practical implications of your work get realized much quicker than they should have already been, right? So you, you know, the Counterclockwise study, as you say, was done several decades ago. We're still not implementing that into practice. Um, right at the end of this conversation, Ellen, what's the takeaway for someone? For someone who's heard everything you've had to say, for someone who's gonna go out and buy your book, and they're thinking, "Okay, this is really fascinating. I don't wanna live by mindless rules. Uh, I've gotta start to know that I don't know. But how can I practically start doing that in my life today?" What would you say to them?

    10. EL

      Well, you know, we go back to where we started with this, that, uh, realize the power in uncertainty. And people are afraid of not knowing because they think they're supposed to know. So let me be here to tell everybody, nobody knows. And when you make, um, uh, a universal attribution for not knowing, it's not that I don't know, nobody can know, uh, then you sit up and you pay attention. If you... In that state, you'll see that it's energy beginning. It's what you're doing when you're having your best time. And the way to do that is you just accept uncertainty. Ask yourself for anything you think you know how it could be otherwise. Anytime you're asked a question, give several explanations for it. Or just start noticing, and you notice new things about the things you thought you knew. You come to see you didn't know them as well as you thought you did, and your attention naturally goes there. But the, the larger reason is that right now, so many people are sealed in unlived lives.

    11. SP

      Um, and, uh, stressed, um, uh, negative, uh, unhappy, um, making themselves sick and oblivious to it. And I think that just recognizing that there's another way of being that's readily available to all of us, um, should be worth trying it. You know, there's-- By increasing your mindfulness, as I studied, it has nothing to do with meditation, just this act of noticing, um, leads you to be happier, healthier. Uh, the neurons are firing. Other people see you as more alive, um, as charismatic, as authentic. The things that we do bear the imprint of our mindfulness. Um, it, it's only good.

  9. 25:51 – 32:09

    James Hollis: meaning vs purpose—outer adaptation vs inner reality

    1. RC

      In your book, In Between Worlds, you wrote that Jung concluded that there was a deep resilience within each of us guided by some locus of knowing independent of ego consciousness, which I just found was just so profound, and, and it completely stopped me and made me think about so many different things. There's this, you know, this, this kind of, this deep resilience within each of us. It's, you know, what we're speaking to, in essence, throughout this conversation, Jim, is meaning, right? It's-

    2. SP

      Yes

    3. RC

      ...are, are we living a life of meaning or not? And I know you've written a lot about meaning, but when I hear that term being used regularly these days, it usually comes alongside another word, purpose. So people will say, "Yes, my life, I, I need more meaning and purpose." They often come together. Is there a difference in the way you see those words between meaning and purpose? And if so, what is it?

    4. SP

      Sure. I, I would just say, first of all, I'd like to underline what you just said. Most of our difficulties, our psychological difficulties, and perhaps some of our physical difficulties, um, are crises of meaning. And we, until we begin to address it at that level, it will, we'll stay stuck in the dilemma. You might have some symptomatic, uh, improvement, but the issue doesn't change. Life doesn't move forward. It just moves in the old way in which it was moving. And yes, you know, the purpose is more ego-oriented. Like there's purposeful activity in earning a living. There's a purposeful activity to look both directions before you cross the street. These are, these are bound to our concept of relating to the outer realities. But meaning has to do with our relating to the inner realities. You can do all the right things, which is what I had done conscientiously at midlife, and then it's as if my assumptions, uh, or purposes, uh, walked away from me. You know? I could no longer see why do I wanna just keep doing this the rest of my life, you see? And that was a crisis of meaning. And it wasn't that it had to do necessarily with changing an outer relationship or changing a career or changing one's geography or something like that. That's the first thing that consciousness thinks about. How do I rearrange the furniture of my outer world?

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. SP

      It's more about saying maybe there is something entirely different within you that is needing to address, uh, to be addressed in order to step more fully. Now, just one other further per- personal example. I'd experienced a lot of medical difficulties as a child, so initially in life I'd wanted to become a physician. But then when it came time to make those choices, I moved off into the humanities and, and I had a v- rich experience there. I'm glad I did. At the same time, I didn't realize what was pulling the, the switch inside that sent the train down this track instead of another track. And that's why in some way, and I talk about this in my n- next book, um, I, a- as a part of my analytic training, I of course had to have clinical experience and so I worked for three years also in a psychiatric hospital, state psychiatric hospital. First week I was there, the psychiatrist, an older f- fellow who'd been in the military, uh, I was assigned to him to, um, you know, as, as my f- you know, superior and, and, and, uh, guider, so forth. And he says, "Uh, come with me, Hollis. I, I, I wanna show you someone I think you'd work very well with." So we walked into a, a room, and there were people gathered around in a circle, and I looked in, and something kicked me right in the stomach, so to speak, the diaphragm. And at the same time, I knew [laughs] macho code, don't reveal anything, 'cause I know he, knew he was watching me. He had taken me to an autopsy. If he'd asked me, "Do you wanna go see an autopsy?" I would have said yes out of duty. This is part of the learning. But inwardly, I would have said no. But it was like all of the experience I had had of suffering as a child came rushing back in that moment. And for some time after that, I, I dreamt of it, of course, and I, I took it into my analysis and so forth. My analyst said quite appropriately, "When you f- face the fears from your own history, the fears that are occasioned by the outer world will not be so overwhelming." And of course, I knew intuitively the truth of that. And, and so I, I realized, isn't it interesting how my psyche, contrary to my intentions, and that's why there's a difference between purpose-My purpose there was to accumulate clinical experience. The meaning of it was taking me back into the body to suffering, to what can be the horror of life as well as the beauty of life-

    7. RC

      Mm

    8. SP

      ... and, and to go through it, to deal with it. And, um, that was part of what I had to transform in that. There's nothing wrong with fear. That's natural and normal in human life. There's something wrong with living a fear-driven life, though. There's a, there's a difference there.

    9. RC

      Mm.

    10. SP

      And I realized I'm here because I belong here. This is what I need to do here. My own psyche, which once was terrified of hospitals, had to come back into a hospital-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. SP

      ... as an adult to absorb what was overwhelming to the child. So I think in that example, you can see the difference between purpose and, and meaning. Meaning comes from the soul. Purpose has to do with our orientation to, um, and adaptations in the outer world.

  10. 32:09 – 39:23

    Living values in imperfect circumstances: dignity, work, and aligned meaning

    1. RC

      Yeah. I, I love that distinction. If I could just use that example and just probe a little bit further, because I, I find this topic super fascinating. Some people who use those words meaning and purpose interchangeably may hear what you have just said and go, "Okay, Jim, when you were, you know, you were, you were doing purposeful activities, learning what you had to learn, you were doing what you needed to do to earn money for your family," these are all purposeful activities, but they're not you necessarily finding your purpose. And I think... I, I th- I think about this a lot, right? What, what does it actually mean to live a life of purpose?

    2. SP

      Well-

    3. RC

      Because I think sometimes it's interpreted as I have to find that one thing that I've been put on this earth in order to do, and perhaps that is a reasonable thing for some people if they live in a world and an environment where they can find that true thing that their soul is calling to them regularly, right? But I think also I recognize that a lot of people can't do that or they don't seem to be able to do that. So what I've often said to people is, "Listen, if, for example, you, uh, you work in a call center and you don't like your job, right? So you're literally doing that job to pay the bills and feed your children-

    4. SP

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... right, which is a purposeful activity.

    6. SP

      Sure.

    7. RC

      I often or I have said to people, I say, "Listen, if we can help together figure out what your inner core values are, right, and you start living a life in alignment with those values, to me that is a purposeful life." So to make that, um, a bit more practical, for that person who's working in a call center and they don't like their job, if one of their inner core values is kindness, right? It's really important to me to be kind-

    8. SP

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... then I believe that if that person is kind to the barista who makes his coffee on the way to work, if he is kind to the bus driver who drives him to work, if he is kind to his work colleagues and his manager when he's at the job he doesn't like, I still believe that is a purposeful life, and the more people start living in alignment with those inner values, the more likely it is that an opportunity is gonna present itself where they could potentially leave that job and do something else. So I'd, I, I'd love your perspective on, on that take, which I've just presented, if, if you don't mind.

    10. SP

      Of course. No, I fully concur with your point of view. Um, it's purposeful and meaningful to have family life. It's purposeful and meaningful to be self-supporting as that person is doing. Sadly, most of the history of humanity has never allowed people or all sorts of social structures for pur- uh, for reasons, you know, uh, coming from the time and culture, didn't allow them opportunity for self-expression. You know, one can be born a slave, so to speak, or born into harsh circumstances or be biologically impaired or a thousand things, but you're absolutely right. You know, within the context of family life, work life, if kindness is a value, you're gonna have plenty of opportunities to exercise that, and you do it not even about the other person, because it's right for you to do that, see? That's part of who you are, so you honor that. There's depth and dignity in-

    11. RC

      Mm

    12. SP

      ... in labor, for example. I mean, I've worked in jobs I hated, [laughs] factory work, digging ditches, et cetera, as a young person, and I never liked the work. But it was purposeful to learn skills, to support myself, et cetera, et cetera. But it wasn't meaningful for me other than being self-supported. That part was meaningful.

    13. RC

      Mm.

    14. SP

      What it made clear to me is I needed to find another way to earn a living to pay for my daily bread, so to speak. Now, again, meaning and purpose, when they're aligned, is a much more harmonious life 'cause it's, it's purposeful to continue to live. It's purposeful to be self-supportive if one can. One has the capacity to do that. It's purposeful to be kind to others, et cetera. But there's also for... I'll g- come back again to a personal example. It was very purposeful for me to get an education. I had a doctorate by the time I was 27, and I, I entered the world of academia, which I enjoyed. At the same time, I also later, through analysis and my dreams and so forth, came to realize it was my way of avoiding, to take the high road, if you will, to avoid the fury and mire of human veins, as Yeats put it, um, [clears throat] that I found going on back in the hospital.That's why I said I was stunned to realize my own psyche had pulled me back into the place that I had fled.

    15. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    16. SP

      And there was profound meaning in that. It was purpose for me to get clinical experience. I was required to do that. The real meaning of it was you can run, but you can't hide. [laughs] Your own psyche's gonna pull you back here, and it's gonna help you or d- drive you to, to confront your fears so that they're no longer your fears. And, you know, shortly after that, my adaptation, my, my fitting into what was a locked ward of a psychiatric facility with- in which there were many psychotic individuals, was a much more profound experience because I, I was much more aware of th- their suffering. I was less concerned about my apprehensions about them and more concerned with what suffering had brought them to that place, whether biological, social, or, or, or both. And so that's why I said earlier in this conversation, I would have never imagined as a child-

    17. RC

      Mm-hmm

    18. SP

      ... spending my life with people who are su- experiencing suffering of one kind or another.

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. SP

      And yet today I'm, I'm blessed to have the opportunity to share the meaningful purpose of their journeys, and it's part of my journey to be part of that conversation with them. Again, that's why we're talking today.

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. SP

      And the, and the thread that runs through that has always been teaching. Now, you can teach as a way of earning a living, but you can also teach because there's something that you find meaningful about sharing what you've learned with people in a way that could be helpful to them.

    23. RC

      Yeah.

    24. SP

      And, and there's a difference there. There's a subtle difference between purpose and meaning, but meaning is, is really how this speaks to and honors something deep within you that is wishing expression through you. You know, I'm in a place where I could have retired a long time ago, but I, I'm still doing these things. I'm still working with clients because, as I say to my wife, "What better can I be doing with my life-"

    25. RC

      Yeah

    26. SP

      ... "than the thing that matters most to me?" You see?

  11. 39:23 – 47:20

    Longevity beyond biology: why live longer, and what is it in service to?

    1. RC

      It, it's funny you just say that. You, you, you're, you're, you know, almost 85.

    2. SP

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      You're still working. You're still seeing clients three days a week regularly. And I know from what I've heard that you don't really engage with social media. Um-

    4. SP

      Mm.

    5. RC

      I'm not sure how much you're aware of this longevity and anti-aging movement that is growing these days about how can we, um... Well, it's interpreted in many ways. You know, the, the, you know, it's how can we, you know, make sure that as long as we're alive, we're as active and as well as we can be. There's also a lot of people who are talking about delaying aging, um, extending human lifespan. Perhaps, you know, peop- some- there's all kinds of wild claims being made at the moment around that. But the people who tend to be talking about that, and I, I follow this movement quite carefully, I find a lot of it is biological. Okay? It's physical activity-

    6. SP

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... will do this to your hormones and your mitochondria. Uh, getting enough sleep will, you know, have these kind of biological effects on your body, right? And those things are, are deeply fascinating to me and are very, very interesting. At the same time, I have a deep belief within me that if you don't have a reason to get up in the morning, if you, you really don't have that reason, you know, on a very, very deep level, at some point, that is the start of the end. That is the start of that decline. And I, I see many people around me where I live, you know, women in their 90s who I don't think have been that proactive about their health and wellbeing, but they have a deep sense of connection to the community. They've got things that they need to do and they want to do to help other people. There's a real passion, a-

    8. SP

      Mm-hmm

    9. RC

      ... sense of purpose, a sense of meaning, and I really do believe that this is the big piece that the whole longevity movement is not really talking about enough, and I'd really appreciate your perspective as someone who is in their mid-80s, who seems to be sharp, vibrant, still seeing clients. How important do you think having a reason to get up each day is for you and frankly all of us?

    10. SP

      Well, that's, that's a profound observation. I agree with you totally. When I look at that movement, it's not like [laughs] I'm eager for early death. That's not the point. But I say, "So why is it you want to live longer?" You know? What is that in service to? Seriously. Is that simply about your ego saying, "Well, I want what I want"? Ironically, it's the decline of tribal religions, of institutional assurances of another life that has made people even more frenetic about living longer.

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. SP

      Ask the question, why should you live longer? You're, you know, taking up space on the planet. You're polluting the planet with no bad intentions, but you are. Why should you live longer? Just to serve your ego? Rather the question, there's a difference between knowledge and wisdom. It's like, why am I here, and in service to what? And I fully concur that longevity itself is not the goal. I don't want to continue any longer than I'm able purposefully and meaningfully to live my life. Um, you know, when the time comes, I, I believe I will be able to say... 'cause there was some time rather recently when that was pretty much up for grabs, where I said, "Well, it's my turn now." The main reason I want to live is I want to be here for my wife, who is one year younger. She needs my help. I want to be her companion and support and caregiver.Um, secondly, I'm still learning. I have an insatiable curiosity. I love to hear about advances in the sciences and astronomy and so forth. Um, not that I have the capacity to understand it all, but I, I just realize it's an expanding universe. Thirdly, I have work that is so meaningful to me. Why would I wanna quit that? I don't. But you're right [laughs] , 'cause I have something moving and profound to live for, but it's not my ego existence. I, I think it's all important to realize this particular ego is an assemblage that has mysteriously held together for a certain length of year, but it's a, it's a tiny instant in the history of this cosmos. From whence we come, whether we go, is a profound mystery.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. SP

      My ego can never wrap its way around that, so I, I don't even try. I simply say it's respected. It's, it's the mystery. The question is, you know, we can die many ways before we die. And, and you're right, if you, if you don't have some reason to get up in the morning, then you better find it or it's time to go, you know? I don't mean that in any active way, but to say, you know, it's a summons to say, "What is it that I can still learn? What is it I still have to grow and develop?"

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. SP

      Now, uh, underneath all of that, what distinguishes this animal from the other animals in this world is we suffer the disconnect from meaning. Uh, animals can suffer deprivations and, and hardships of various kinds, and other predators, let's say. But as far as we know, they're not crises of meaning, except sometimes with our domestic animals, like fear of abandonment and so forth. However, we do. And to say, "All right, what is the meaningful task for me?" You know, one of the most poignant kinds of therapeutic issues is when a person is elderly, maybe is in significant discomfort, and, um, the loved ones that they've most cared for are, are gone. And there's a sense of loss and abandonment that is omnipresent. And one then has to say, yes, all of that's been the richness of your... You suffer that-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. SP

      ... because there was something rich and valuable for you there, and you honor it by carrying it with you. But you also are still here as a living, organic person with, with your own journey. What more can you learn? What more can you take delight in? And yes, practicing virtues like kindness, if that's one of your values, and I... It's certainly something that's always spoken to me, that kindness and compassion will get us through this life-

    19. RC

      Mm

    20. SP

      ... if we remember it. And everybody you meet out there is in need of those. Whether they [laughs] pay attention to it or not, it does affect things.

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. SP

      Being mindful of our place on the planet and not leaving a, a more troubled planet for our descendants i- is another, I think, redeeming value as, as we age. But again, underneath it is let's not confuse the ego's nervous desire for its own self per- pep- uh, perpetuation with, with living a meaningful life.

    23. RC

      Yeah.

    24. SP

      You see? That's, that's the infantile part of us. And I don't judge it, I'm just trying to identify.

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. SP

      Why should you live longer, right? Uh, in service to what? Now, that's a healthy question. In service to what? I don't say it's for simply perpetuation of your life. In the long run, that's trivial in the great scheme of the universe, whatever [laughs] that may be. And it is, though, profoundly important to say, now, what is it you can do? And one thing you can do is be kind to people around you. Pay attention. Live with compassion for this world. And when you, you do that, you know, life takes on a certain flavor that you might have known in the past but thought was lost forever, and it's never, never lost.

  12. 47:20 – 55:06

    Edith Eger: freedom, forgiveness, and escaping the mind’s “concentration camp”

    1. RC

      Yeah. How do you define freedom?

    2. EE

      Uh, by letting go of the concentration camp that you created in your own mind. That's what forgiveness is. You give yourself a gift, that you do not carry the people that you hate, that you release them, you let them go. That's how. That's why forgiveness isn't about me forgiving you for what you did to me. It's for me to liberate myself, not to be a prisoner or the hostage of the past. I don't live in Auschwitz. I go through the valley of the shadow of death. I don't camp there or set up house on there. But I don't forget it or overcome it. I came to terms with it. I call it my cherished wound.

    3. RC

      Yeah. I mean, Edith, y- your book, um, I've got marks and underlines on almost every page of this thing. There is wisdom, there's gold. I've been on my own personal, um, inward journey since my father died seven and a half years ago, and lots of the truths that I'm learning are beautifully, um, and very articulately put together in The Gift. Um, and it really has been a gift into my life, so I thank you for that once again. But I've got... The first thing I've underlined is on page three, and it's just so powerful and, and almost echoes what you just said. "As an Auschwitz survivor, I'm here to tell you that the worst prison is not the one the Nazis put me in. The worst prison is the one I built for myself."When did you start building that prison, and when were you able to get out of it?

    4. EE

      Before I answer your question, I like to ask you how old were you when your father died?

    5. RC

      So I'm 43. Dad was 20, 12, 7, so I was 35 years old when my dad died.

    6. EE

      So would you consider looking at it from a different perspective that you didn't lose your father, that spirit was sent to you for 35 years, and you celebrate every moment, and then that spirit had to go home?

    7. RC

      I would, yeah.

    8. EE

      Just how you look at things.

    9. RC

      Yeah.

    10. EE

      Your father would be very grateful knowing that his son has a full life, that he's interviewing survivors, that he's, he is an ambassador for peace. Isn't that a wonderful feeling? Just looking at the same thing from a different perspective.

    11. RC

      Yeah. No, thank you for that.

    12. EE

      So let me be your optom- let me be your ophthalmologist and recognizing that the prison is in our own minds, and the key is in our pocket. We create the Nazi within us. I graduated with honors, and I never showed up for my graduation because I did not forgive myself that I survived. See, I didn't need a Nazi. I had in my mind, unfortunately, that part that didn't allow me to celebrate the freedom fully. Today, I wouldn't do that. But I think the prison that we put ourselves in our own mind needs to be really examined because every behavior satisfies a need. And when you have the victim's mentality, you're always gonna find the victimizer. There is no victim without the victimizer, and it also gives you, um, a, a secondary gain. It, it gives you, uh, the idea that you don't have to do anything, zero, and that's why also yesterday's victims easily become today's victimizers because they look at the world two ways. The victim is weak. The victimizer is strong. So part of the psyche will identify with the aggressor, and that's what we call, uh, the syndrome is, um, Stockholm syndrome, yes.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. EE

      You identify with the aggressor, and many times children who are beaten, unfortunately, they grow up and, and they carry it from generation to generation. I do everything in my power to teach, especially fathers, the way they treat their children is important because children don't do what we say, they do what they see. And, and the way he loves his children is the way he treats the mother of their children, how he, he loves and adores and takes care of the ch- the mother, his wife, his life mate.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. EE

      So love is not what you feel, it's what you do.

    17. RC

      Just so powerful, really. There's, there's such wisdom in what you say, Edith, but there's also, there's love. I, I can really feel there is love. It's, there's no charge, there's no anger, there's no, there's no sense that you're trying to talk down to me or talk down to anyone. It's, it's, it's a really lovely energy that even though we're 3,000 miles away and I'm looking at you through a screen, I can still feel it.

    18. EE

      I can feel you too. Yes, our spirit is really connecting well. It, people don't come to me, they're sent to me, and I, I couldn't be more really blessed to have you in my life. And your father is winking now, and he says like Mr. Higgins, "By God, he's got it."

    19. RC

      [laughs]

  13. 55:06 – 1:07:54

    Parenting, integrity, and survival wisdom: consistent leadership and inner resilience

    1. RC

      Yeah. No, for sure. Um, why do you think it's so important for fathers-

    2. EE

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... as opposed to mothers to behave a certain way in front of their children?

    4. EE

      I think the fathers are-The role models to be a knowledgeable leader, but not a dictator. A father is a man. There are lots of males running around, lots of boys are running around, but a father who's a man is the knowledgeable leader, a teacher, a protector, a provider. You see, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's the family that is really totally protected by a man who was called upon to have a family that looks up at him, because respect is recognition, that you look at your father and knowing that he is not going to say one thing and do another. That's a definition of a hypocrite. So when the phone rings and you pick up the phone and you tell your father very quietly, "Daddy, it's for you," and your father tells you very quietly, "Tell them I'm not here," and the following week he's giving you a lecture about honesty, you're gonna catch your father very quickly and say, "Hey, Dad, what are we talking about?" Okay? Children see everything. They say e- you know, and I think that's very important with the children to be consistent.

    5. RC

      Yeah. Yeah.

    6. EE

      I train parents to be good parents to themselves so they can be good parents to their children.

    7. RC

      Yeah. No, thank you for that. It's, you know, I've been a father now for 10 years, and I've very much changed my parenting style f- over those 10 years. But a lot of that has come from me clearing out my own closet, you know, looking in the mirror, being honest with myself, not trying to kid myself and saying, "Hey, listen. Listen, listen, mate, um, you can't say this and do something different." And, and I totally agree with you, and certainly this has been my experience, that kids don't do what you tell them to do, they do what they see you doing. And that really has been a huge motivator and driver for me to change, because I'm thinking, "Well, if, if I value my role as a father as one of the most important roles in my life," which I do, "then what could be more important to me than addressing my past, getting rid of guilt, shame, anger, all kinds of toxic emotions that I have felt really until very, very recently?" And by freeing myself from them, I parent in a different way. The interaction is different. It's more joyful, more happy. But it started with looking in the mirror and being honest with myself.

    8. EE

      Beautiful that you do that, and you're also called upon to be a guide to others, a guide from darkness to light, from prison to freedom. You know, respect is that someone looks at you and says, "I wanna be like him." So it's not what we feel, it's what we do, that we commit ourselves, and that's what happened in Auschwitz. We had to commit to each other. It was cooperation, not competition or domination, because all we had was each other then, and all we have is each other now. How can we empower each other with our differences?

    9. RC

      Would you mind if I asked you a few more questions about your experience in Auschwitz?

    10. EE

      Yes. Auschwitz was hell. You know, I usually like to quote Hans Selye, who has a theory on stress.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. EE

      And he says, "Anytime something stressful come to us, we have two automatic responses. We either fight or flee." That did not work in Auschwitz, because if you touched the guards, you were shot right there and then. I witnessed that, when people would go and touch the guard and they were shot. There is no way I could flee, because if I touched the barbed wire, I was electrocuted, and I saw that blue body. So I, I knew what not to do, and I was able to turn the hatred into pity, and decided that they were the prisoners. So I became a very talented, uh, schizophrenic. I, I did what I was told every day, but deep inside, I had my spirit. They could put me in the gas chamber any minute, I had no power over it. 4:00 in the morning when we stood, it was called the Appell, they were counting heads, and they told us, "If you don't feel well, just stay in the barracks. We're gonna take you to the hospital."We had to discover, it was a place for discovery, that there was no hospital. There was the gas chamber. So don't ever stay behind because we'll never see you again. We had to learn very quickly the rules, not to fight or flee, but to stay in a situation and just kind of, when they say one day at a time, I would say to myself, "If I survive today, then tomorrow I'm gonna see my boyfriend," because he told me I have beautiful eyes and beautiful hands. So it's, it's the way you think. You create, you create what you think. That's important. Every morning when you get up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you say, "I love me." Because self-love is self-care, it's not narcissistic. It's okay to love you. And look forward to the day that you create your thinking, you create your feeling, and you create the behavior. So before you say anything, ask yourself, "Is it kind? Is it really very important and necessary?" And if it's not, don't say it. I teach couples how to share silence. Don't ask, "How are you?" That's the stupidest question. People say, "Fine." And I tested that. I tested that because I was professor of psychology, and my student told me that in America, people are hearing but not listening. And I said, "Let's test it. Tomorrow morning when you pick up your books, someone is gonna say hi to you, and you say very quietly, 'My mother died this morning.'" Sure enough, the morning someone came, said hi to him. He said, "Hi, how are you?" And my student said, "My mother died this morning." And guess what happened? "Oh, that's great. I'll see you this afternoon." People are hearing but not listening. I like to be a compassionate listener, even to the white supremacy, uh, member who came to see me and told me how he's going to kill all the Jewish people, all the Black people, all the Mexicans, all the Chinese, and not to react. If I would've reacted, I would've taken that boy and drag him to the corner. I would step on him and tell him, "Who do you think you're talking to? I saw my mother going to the gas chamber." But I think that the most obnoxious person is my best teacher.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. EE

      So I, I, I think it's very good to look at the bigot in you.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. EE

      It's there. There is a Hitler there. There is a Mother Teresa there. There is kindness. There is goodness. And I think it's very, very important to really change our thinking. That can change our lives.

    17. RC

      Yeah. I, uh, I'm getting shivers as you're talking because-

    18. EE

      Mm

    19. RC

      ... this, these words of wisdom that you, that you speak, I can feel the truth in them. You know? I c- I can feel... Th- th- this... I guess this is, this is where I'm... I've been coming for a few years. I've really been trying to understand myself, understand human behavior, and I'm fascinated by people. I'm fascinated why, why someone's ended up in front of me, why they've got a particular illness, why they talk about it in a particular way, why some engage with what you want them to do and others don't engage. And I've never really judged my patients. I've always tried to learn from them and understand. And I guess where I'm currently on in my journey, and what I love about what you just said, is I, I, I literally do this every day. I look for the friction. I look for, where was I not at ease with something? Where did something bother me? Or where did I feel an emotion? And then my current, uh, approach is instead of trying to blame somebody else for that, I go, "No, no, no. Hold on. This is me. What is this bringing up in me?" Because that's what I can control. I can control my reaction. So if I'm getting triggered, what is it triggering? So I spend my life now going inwards, and I gotta say, it's so rewarding, because what could be better than understanding yourself? My favorite one of your six secrets is number five, everything is your teacher.

    20. EE

      Uh-huh.

    21. RC

      Um, I'm biased towards that one because I would say over the last five, 10 years, that's kinda been a big shift within myself, how I look at everything in life now as a learning opportunity, good or bad.

    22. EE

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      So I, I really-I love it because it, it makes us less of a victim to life and-

    24. GM

      [laughs]

    25. RC

      ... puts us in the driver's seat of life, right?

  14. 1:07:54 – 1:26:59

    Gladys McGarey (102): finding your voice, loving everyone, and living without regret

    1. GM

      Yeah.

    2. RC

      So when we see things as our teacher, there's, there's a learning opportunity in every single situation. So I wanna talk-

    3. GM

      Yeah

    4. RC

      ... about that secret, what you mean by it exactly. But to start off, you just shared a very powerful story of your husband of 46 years asking you for a divorce, which was devastating to you at the time. So through the lens of everything in life is your teacher, what did that moment teach you?

    5. GM

      Yeah. You know, um, yesterday was the Fourth of July. It was Independence Day here in, in Phoenix, i- in the United States, and 30 years ago, on Independence Day, I moved into this house, and it was after the [laughs] the divorce, after, you know, we had started our own practice and so on. But it w- this... [laughs] I think it's kind of interesting that today is the day after Independence Day for me for 30 years. But, um, the, the, the reality of it was that when I started school, I... Now, up until that time, I w- I, life was idyllic. I thought everything was fine. But when I started school, I couldn't read and I couldn't write. I couldn't... All numbers w- would jump, w- would move on the page. And so I had to repeat first grade twice, and, um, the teacher tal- called me a dummy, and I thought I was stupid, and, uh, I fought the kids that called me the dumbest one in the class and all of that stuff for two years. Not at home. At home, it was a completely different j- My parents and [clears throat] my siblings, we had a... I could climb up the hill and life was different. But when I went to school, I was a dummy. That picture of being the stupid one carried through all the way through my life in that I didn't realize that I had a voice, because I thought I always have to have it rechecked. I have to have, if I've written something, I have to have somebody read it and make sure that it's, it's all right. And it wasn't until I was 93 that I find- found my voice. Now, the reason I'm telling you this is because sometimes we have childhood pain or even cultural pain or something that is so deep within us that we don't recognize it for what it is. Bill Mas- asking me for the divorce gave me my independence. He literally booted me out, and I needed to, I had to find out how I could go on and how I would be able to continue to do the work. And so it called to the deepest part of myself, and it wasn't until I was 93 that I really realized my voice had... was important, that I'm, I had been using my... I'd written these books and I'd done all these things, but I was, uh, always downplaying them by saying, "Yeah, yes, this," but somebody else, you know, it was-

    6. RC

      Mm-hmm

    7. GM

      ... and I realized that in downplaying them, I was in essence denying my own voice to myself. But when I was 93, I, I had a dream, and in the dream, I saw myself n- as nine-year-old Gladys in the, in the jungles of North India. And I was in, we were in tents and, and I was looking out of the tent to see, make sure my younger brother wasn't there, 'cause he was gonna tattle on me, because I was gonna do something I wasn't supposed to do, and I knew it. And the s- thing that I was sup- were not supposed to do in our family was we were allowed to sing hymns and bhajan on s- a Sunday morning, but not the other stuff that I wanted to sing. And I th- as a wise seven-year-old [laughs] who thought she knew something, thought that was stupid and, uh-

    8. RC

      [laughs]

    9. GM

      ... I didn't wanna do it, and I wasn't gonna do it. So I cli- Gordon couldn't report me to the, uh... He wasn't there. I climbed as fast as I could to, to the top of the bana- a ma- mango tree, and I'm sitting up there and I'm singing. I'm singing the Caterpillar Song and anything else that I wanted to sing.

    10. RC

      [laughs]

    11. GM

      And it was going on and on. And every so often, I look over my shoulder and I see Jesus up in the tree, and Jesus is cracking up. I mean, He's laughing really, really hard. And I say to Jesus, "Jesus loves the little children, right?" And He says, "Yes," and I go back to my singing. But then I begin to doubt, you know, did, did, did He really say that? [laughs] So I look back at Him and I sayI'm still a little children, right? And he says, [laughs] "Yes." And I go back to singing and laughing, and that's when I woke up and realized that I had been denying my voice all this time-

    12. RC

      Mm-hmm

    13. GM

      ... when even Jesus accepted the [laughs] fact that it was okay. So f- from that point on, I really stopped this foolishness of saying, well, somebody else, uh, d- or this, you know, I, well, I got that from here or there. So the, the, the whole concept of independence came from that tragic thing that I thought had ended by all that I had done.

    14. RC

      Yeah, Gladys, I really appreciate you sharing that. I think it's, it's such a powerful story. It's very inspiring as well, actually, the fact that it was only when you were 93 when you feel now that you've found your voice. Because I think many of us feel that we've still not found our voice. We're scared about what other people will think of us.

    15. GM

      Right.

    16. RC

      We're scared of actually following our true path because it's kinda not what our parents want or society wants. And me hearing you say after-

    17. GM

      Yeah

    18. RC

      ... all the incredible things you've achieved in your career and done, me hearing you say that you only really got your voice at the age of 93, I think it gives me, and I hope everyone listening, a lot of hope.

    19. GM

      Yeah. Yeah. Because why not? You know, 'cause 93 is st- still a good age. [laughs] You know? And, and, uh, absolutely, you know, y- you've got self-doubts and, and that doesn't mean that self-doubt doesn't creep in here, here now occasionally, but I know that it's, you know, that I can still understand the thing that I'm really, really saying.

    20. RC

      Yeah. You know, one of your other secrets that I really liked was secret four, which is you are never truly alone. And there's quite a few chapters in that section, and there's, there's some real wisdom there. One of the chapters I quite liked was the one about finding your friends, and in that you were talking about you aim to love everyone, right? You aim to love everyone, and you had this phrase, "I want to find the friend within them." Can you explain what you mean by that?

    21. GM

      Well, you know, you can either look to the people wh- who are around you, who are, who are in your environment as, uh, friends or foe. And there are people who, uh, don't think like you do or you know are doing things that are painful and, uh, so on. Uh, it's a matter of what you w- want to focus on. I, I know there are people out there who are hurting other people and doing bad things to other people, but they are there because they have their lessons to learn. They... That- that's their issue, and I don't have to c- carry their issue. I mean, th- there are people who are doing bad things, but I don't have to understand what it is that they're trying to understand. I just have to understand that they're con- confused and stuck and doing these things, and bless them and go on. I mean, it's a matter of accepting the fact that there are evil things that go on in this world, but I don't need to dig in that pa- in that patch. I don't need to dig in that mud hole. Uh, it, it's not something I choose to do. I'd much rather walk in the garden than to, uh, dig in the garbage stuff outside. And, um, I, I think it's, it really is a matter of choice as to how... You know, there are people th- who do things that I really don't like, but [sighs] is my talking about that making it better or worse, or my dealing with it? What's my engagement with that doing to what they're doing? If I continue to, uh, every time I talk to somebody talk about how awful somebody is or, or, you know, I mean, whatever, uh, that just continues it. But if I can just look at it and say, "Well, that's their burden to carry," and, uh, they'll l- learn what they can learn, but I just have to learn that they still are a human being who has the option of reaching their true humanity, and I'm just gonna keep looking for that-

    22. RC

      Yeah

    23. GM

      ... within that person.

    24. RC

      I, I really, I really love that. It's choosing where you place your attention, right?

    25. GM

      Yeah.

    26. RC

      This is one of the strengths of a gratitude practice. It's like, yeah, we can find plenty of negatives each day, and the brain's wired to look for those. So an intentional practice of gratitude is simply starting to direct your attention little by little each day to the good that does exist, the positives that do exist. And it's, you know, it's... As you were explaining that perspective, your words were really interesting to me. You didn't say there are bad people in the world. You said there are people who are doing bad things.

    27. GM

      Mm-hmm.

    28. RC

      Right? And there's a massive difference. Right? There's a huge difference. You're not calling that person bad, wrapping up the entirety of them within this kind of three-letter word. You're going, "No, that's one aspect of them that I can see," but there's other aspects of them. You know, when I learnt this, well, there's many, many experiences in life that have taught me this lesson, but I remember a few years ago I was at a conference, I think it was a medical conference, and someone who I had seen online who I didn't really like the way they came across online. I thought they were quite combative, talking down about other people constantly, you know, encouraging pile-ons to people online, this is. And I met them at a conference. I can't remember where. I saw them and I had an interaction with them, and I thought, "Wow, they're really nice, actually. You know what? I bet they're a really good dad." And, uh, the, the point was it just made me think there are so many facets to all of us, right? We have these-

    29. GM

      Yeah

    30. RC

      ... we all do things maybe that other people may not like, myself included, right?

Episode duration: 1:26:59

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