Life Advice From 80+ Year Olds You Didn’t Know You Needed

1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:00

   How much does our belief around health impact our health?

2. ELDr. Ellen Langer0:06

   Yeah. Well, you know that I agree with you that the impact is potentially enormous. Um, but in many ways. You know, that if you think you're getting sick, then you do getting sick things. Um, and you may stay in bed, uh, you may avoid relationships for the moment. Um, you avoid those things that are fun and exciting, and it turns out those things you're avoiding are actually good for your health. Um, and staying in bed is probably bad for your health, and so you're making yourself sicker. It be- and that's one way it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You know, I had this thing where, um, again, it's an anecdote, um, but I'll, I'll think I'm getting something. Doesn't matter what it is. And then the next day I forgot that I was getting [laughs] it and I'm always better. Um, and you know, but when... The problem with an anecdote is we're talking about a sample, a very small sample size-

3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07

   Mm

4. ELDr. Ellen Langer1:07

   ... sample size of one. And, um, but I, like you, think that I'm almost invulnerable. Uh, if I get anything, it goes away very quickly.

5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:20

   Yeah.

6. ELDr. Ellen Langer1:20

   Um, you know, n- there can be many explanations for that.

7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:23

   Of course.

8. ELDr. Ellen Langer1:24

   But I think the explanation that somehow my attitude and the way I live my life, um, is a protective factor, even if ultimately were found to be wrong, is still right because if you're gonna be there again, you should be alive for it.

9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:41

   Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, th- this is such a- an interesting topic, right? And-

10. ELDr. Ellen Langer1:47

    Yeah

11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:48

    ... i- in my latest book, Ellen, I write about the relationship between, that's there in the literature, between, uh, people who hold onto resentment and don't express their emotions, and certain chronic illnesses like autoimmune disease and cancer, right? And I-

12. ELDr. Ellen Langer2:04

    Yeah

13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:04

    ... I say very clear these are associations, right? So they're not proving causation, but nonetheless there's, there-

14. ELDr. Ellen Langer2:10

    Yeah

15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:10

    ... there's a lot there in the literature. Gabor Mate has covered this in detail in his book, The Myth of Normal. Um, and it also correlates with what many clinicians who look for these things have seen. I spent so long on this section 'cause I didn't wanna get this misinterpreted. And I, what I said, and this I think is relevant to what you've just said, is I say, "Listen, it would be easy not to say this," right? I'm not saying this to put blame on people, but if this is a potential contributory factor, then if you don't know that information, you're not inclined-

16. ELDr. Ellen Langer2:46

    Yeah

17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:46

    ... to do anything and change anything. Whereas, uh, my goal is to try and help people. I think, like you, like we're, we're doing what we do. We wanna help people. We wanna help-

18. ELDr. Ellen Langer2:54

    Mm-hmm

19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:54

    ... people be more compassionate and less judgemental and go, "Actually, this information is important to know."

20. ELDr. Ellen Langer3:00

    And you know, interesting that even if, and I agree with you completely, I think the information is crucial and correct, but even if it turned out to be wrong, it's still right. It's right in that believing it leads you to act in a way where you're actually alive. You're feeding all the positive things about, um, uh, your life.

21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:24

    Yeah. This whole, this whole area is deeply fascinating to me. Um, to finish off this conversation, and I hope we have many more, Ellen, because I've not even scratched the surface of what I wanted to talk to you about. In the section in the book on placebos, which is amazing, and this really fits in with your idea about the importance of, uh, mindfulness.

22. ELDr. Ellen Langer3:46

    Mm.

23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:46

    You say this: "I believe that some clinical trial outcomes are positive because they encourage people to notice symptom variability." There's totally somewhere inside of me that really connects, and I thought, yeah, it's, it's like what we said before about awareness, right? Once you start bringing attention to something, you start to change your relationship with it. So can you explain what you meant-

24. ELDr. Ellen Langer4:11

    Yeah

25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:11

    ... by that powerful phrase?

26. ELDr. Ellen Langer4:13

    Yeah. Well, yeah, sure. What I, uh... Well, everybody knows that, you know, placebo is something inert. You believe it's going to be effective, and hence it's effective. So if I take some medication and I think it's going to, to be positive, now I'm looking for ways that it's positive. And we said, you know, "Seek and you shall find." We always end up doing hypothesis-confirming, uh, analysis. And so if I notice it's fine, then I'm also more likely to notice perhaps in a moment when it's not so fine, and then that naturally gives rise to the question, why was it fine in this moment and not in the other moment? Which then I can start testing, and that leads to, um, effects, positive effects across, um, all chronic illnesses that we've looked at. So it's a way of explaining, you know, placebos. We go back to placebos. It's so funny because I think placebos, and I'm sure you agree with me, are our strongest medicine.

27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:11

    Yeah.

28. ELDr. Ellen Langer5:12

    And yet placebos, if somebody finds out they have a placebo, they go, "Well, no, yeah. Uh, what do you mean it was just a placebo?" They think it's real. Not to realize that I think the effectiveness of all medication is largely, I believe, placebo. Now, why are placebos given such a bad name? Well, you know, f- uh, I think it comes from the pharmaceutical industry, right? That in order to bring a drug to market, this drug has to outperform the placebo. If it doesn't, damn it, I, you know, couldn't make those billions of dollars, um, without realizing that how effective this placebo actually is, uh, across all disorders.

29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:50

    Yeah.

30. ELDr. Ellen Langer5:51

    And then there, you know, there are some people, most people are amenable to placebos. Not everybody. Um, and I think everybody should be. And you know, if I, uh, had the time, I would pursue that. Um, but yeah, you know, placebos... A- and it's interesting that when you talk to me briefly about the chambermaid study, this was actually a nocebo study, which is important in its own right. Now, people know placebos. You take something that's a nothing to lead to a positive, um, response.

Episode duration: 1:26:59