The Food Addiction Crisis: Why Millions Can’t Stop Eating Sugar | Jen Unwin

1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:00

   Many people blame themselves for lacking willpower around sugar. Is this a willpower problem or is it an addiction one?

2. JUDr. Jen Unwin0:11

   [laughs] It's, it's so not a willpower problem. Just to say to people, because yes, people feel so self-blaming, don't they, and responsible for not being able to control what they eat. Yes, sugar has many effects in the brain, but one is to light up the reward centers, like other drugs. Where other drugs, like alcohol, um, nicotine, caffeine, they give us this sort of dopamine boost in, in the brain-

3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:41

   Mm

4. JUDr. Jen Unwin0:41

   ... which is the sort of reward motivation neurotransmitter. You're going to repeat the kind of things that give you that bit of a high, and, and sugar, sugar will do that. So some of us are more vulnerable than others. But because those are the primitive reward centers in the brain, um, it's not about logic really, it's about a kind of primitive drive. So a, a willpower, yes, maybe to some extent how you set up your environment and other things we can talk about in terms of how you can improve this problem. But once you've got into that addiction problem, you're never gonna solve it with willpower. No, it is much more about the effects of, of sugar and fine carbohydrates, ultra-processed foods on the brain itself, I would say.

5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:27

   Yeah. It's kind of interesting, isn't it? This idea that sugar can be addictive. I, I guess people would say, yes, there are addictive, uh, properties of sugary foods, but going that step further to say sugar addiction is a real problem, or ultra-processed food addiction is a real problem-

6. JUDr. Jen Unwin1:51

   Yeah

7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:52

   ... is something that is still pretty controversial. You have been a clinical psychologist for many, many years. I think you identify as a food or sugar addict-

8. JUDr. Jen Unwin2:04

   I do

9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:04

   ... yourself.

10. JUDr. Jen Unwin2:05

    I do.

11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:06

    In your view, as someone who's at the cutting edge of this, Jen, why do you think this idea that food can be addictive for some people-

12. JUDr. Jen Unwin2:16

    Mm

13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:17

    ... is so controversial?

14. JUDr. Jen Unwin2:18

    Yeah. You're, you're, you're completely right. It, it's, it is still controversial, and people do say, which kinda makes sense, how can food be addictive? Because we need to eat, so it make, it makes no sense that something we have to have can be addictive. So for example, people will say, you know, well, alcohol, you don't, you don't n- need, we don't need alcohol to survive, and alcohol's that substance which we know does have those effects in, in the brain. Whereas food, we, we need it to, to survive. My kind of response to that is, well, it's not all food. So we say food addiction, but we can perhaps go into the nuance of what-

15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:00

    Sure

16. JUDr. Jen Unwin3:00

    ... what we should call this disorder. Some people say sugar addiction, because there is a lot of evidence now from brain studies that of those effects I was saying about sugar sort of lighting up the reward centers. So sugar we know is, is a s- a substance that kind of lights up the brain. Refined carbohydrates, because they very soon become sugar, [laughs] you know, they, they can, they can have the same effect. And we don't have to eat those foods. So obviously, we have to eat to survive, and we need nutrient-dense food to feed the body and brain. We don't have to eat sugar, and we certainly don't have to eat ultra-processed foods that have been sort of manufactured in a factory and literally designed to hook us. The writing was on the wall for the cigarette companies. Those companies bought a lot of the big food companies and brought their marketing and their sort of science and to the formulation of those foods, and literally sort of have people in brain scanners while they're, while they're testing out their formulations to see what lights up the brain more. So they're kind of literally designing these foods to get us hooked. There's that fantastic book by Michael Moss called Hooked-

17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:14

    Yeah

18. JUDr. Jen Unwin4:14

    ... which sort of exposes this, this whole kind of industry. So, you know, we probably shouldn't call some of those things food. So that would be m- be my argument really, is that certain food-type substances have the same effects on the brain and, and can become addictive for, for some people. So we have to be... It, I think it really helps to think of the whole thing like alcohol. So we know that most of us as adults get exposed to alcohol.

19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:48

    Mm.

20. JUDr. Jen Unwin4:49

    Uh, some people really like it [laughs] and they have, uh, maybe too much, maybe harmful uses. But then some people will develop a, a real problem with their relationship with alcohol, will become a substance use disorder. I see it as exactly the same with these kinds of foods, that some of us have this, for whatever reason, genetic, trauma can be a factor, you know, just overexposure when we're very young, um, w- we develop that substance use disorder. Which is very different from people saying sort of blithely, "I'm, you know, oh, I'm addicted to ice cream," because they, they love it and they have it maybe a couple of times a week. It's very different, a person with an actual food use disorder, th- th- the extent of the impact on their lives, for example. So although it's a continuum, [laughs] you've got people who you wouldn't classify as having food addiction as such, and, and people that y- you really would, and those are the sort of people that-

21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:53

    Yeah

22. JUDr. Jen Unwin5:53

    ... that I identify with, and I'm trying to look into the, the research and look into the sort of treatment programs that can, can help people. But I think using that comparator is a really good... 'Cause everybody understands, e- all the public understand that, don't they? They understand that some people-Have lost control of their relationship with alcohol and they need to abstain. And so it's a very similar picture in my view. But it is still, it is still controversial. And obviously there are people who are very anti the idea, particularly the processed food industry.

23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:27

    Yeah. We'll, we'll talk later perhaps about the merits of getting this established formally as a diagnostic category, you know, food addiction or sugar addiction, okay?

24. JUDr. Jen Unwin6:37

    Mm-hmm.

25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:39

    My hope for this conversation is that it helps people understand if they may have a problem with foods. They, they may already know that anyway-

26. JUDr. Jen Unwin6:48

    Mm-hmm

27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:48

    ... but it may help them see it in a different light.

28. JUDr. Jen Unwin6:50

    Yes.

29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:51

    And then it's also really practical to help them actually start to do something about it, because I think-

30. JUDr. Jen Unwin6:57

    Yeah

Episode duration: 1:53:23