WE LEARN IT TOO LATE: You’re Wasting the Only Life You’ll Ever Have (4,000 Weeks)- Oliver Burkeman

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:00 My calculation based upon what you're writing about is that I have around 1,700 to 1,800 weeks left on planet Earth.

Oliver Burkeman 0:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:10 But then this morning I also calculated it in terms of holidays. So I thought if I take one really nice holiday a year, then I've potentially only got 35 or 36 holidays left.

Oliver Burkeman 0:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:26 What was your hope when you came up with this concept of Four Thousand Weeks? Is that something that you found to be scary for people or quite enlightening and, I guess, liberating?

Oliver Burkeman 0:36 I mean, I think it is scary at first, right? Especially that figure, which is the, it's a little bit less than the average human lifespan. I blatantly chose 4,000 because it's a round number, you know. Um, and of course, you know, nobody knows they're gonna get that much. They might get significantly more. They might tragically get a lot less. So y- it's sort of illustrative rather-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:56 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 0:56 ... than any kind of fact. What is definitely true about the amount of time that you'll get is that it will be finite rather than limitless, and that's really the... You know, it sounds obvious, but I don't think we live properly in the, uh, in the acknowledgement of what that, of what that really means. So yeah, at first it's stressful 'cause you're like, "Okay, either I'm gonna feel really despairing about this or I've got to really strenuously try to make the most of every day in a way that actually is not very relaxing at all, but kind of awful." What I'm trying to guide people towards is that once you sort of really truly accept this fact of being finite, it is actually really liberating, and it is a relief. For as long as you are responding to th- this idea of having a limited amount of time with stress, like, "Oh my God, I've got to try to get a huge amount out of my life-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:48 ... because there's so little of it," you still haven't quite taken on board the implication of it, which is like, no, we're all in the same boat. There will always be too much to do. There will always be more ambitions that you can think of than that you could ever put into practice. Always be more obligations you can feel from the society or from your family or whatever than you could ever fulfill, and that's really relaxing 'cause then it's like, "Oh, okay, I don't have to try to do this impossible thing with my life."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:18 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 2:18 "I can just focus on doing something really meaningful and possible."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:23 Uh, I think you're right. I think it really is liberating. One of the ideas that deeply, deeply resonated with me in the book, this, this actually helped me make some big life decisions over the past few months, is this idea that, yes, we have to get good at saying no to things. But I thought your argument took it one step further because there's this kind of, I guess, underlying premise that we have to get good at saying no because some things actually are just the wrong things. So actually, let's not even bring them into our life in the first place. But you go one step further and go, "Actually, no, it's not just about saying no to things that you don't want to do and don't nourish you. You've actually also got to say no to things that you do want to do."

Oliver Burkeman 3:08 Yeah, totally. Because I mean-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:11 Which is mind-blowing, actually.

Oliver Burkeman 3:12 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:13 It really is.

Oliver Burkeman 3:14 Yeah, no, I, I mean, it, it has been for me as well, right? 'Cause I think in the, in the, in the background of all the stuff you hear all the time about how important it is to say no, there's this implication, as you say, you could just... If you did that, you could just say no to all the things that are kind of tedious chores-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:30 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 3:30 ... all the things that don't quite work for you, and then your life would just be exactly properly fitted to the, like, like the time you would have would be exactly fitted to all the things that really matter in your life, and you'd live this sort of perfect, this perfect match. But there's no reason to assume that the, the, the sort of field of things that matter or that feel like they matter is only gonna be big enough to fill the time you've got, rather than exceeding it, right? I think there's, there's always gonna be more things that feel like they matter because the world is full of like, you know, countless opportunities and countless people suffering who need our help and countless good causes and, you know, countless interesting places to visit. All of these. There's just, there's just an endless amount, so why on earth would you ever expect that you could fit all of the ones that you cared about-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:21 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 4:21 ... into your life? But we do. Like, I mean-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:22 We do

Oliver Burkeman 4:23 ... we do expect that sort of chronically. I think that is actually another of these examples of something that is really liberating because you can see that you don't have to fight to somehow make time for everything that matters. That that's kind of a futile quest. You just have to make time for some things that matter and let it go, that it's not gonna be everything.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:44 'Cause otherwise I guess you, you go on that nice holiday. I don't know, let's take a mythical destination like the Maldives or Bali, right?

Oliver Burkeman 4:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:55 But then you could arrive back to wherever you live and see online that someone's posted a gorgeous sunrise photo in Mexico.

Oliver Burkeman 5:05 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:06 Right?

Oliver Burkeman 5:06 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:06 So you were in Bali or the Maldives-

Oliver Burkeman 5:08 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:09 ... but you weren't in Mexico, so therefore, oh man, I need to see that sunrise in Mexico at some point. There's always a sense that actually, yeah, this is great, but I could be doing something more.

Oliver Burkeman 5:21 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:21 Do you feel that the age of the internet and, I guess, social media, the fact that we're being exposed to so much possibility now, that appears to be infinite possibilities, so we always feel that our life is somehow a bit mundane 'cause we're not doing all these incredible things-

Oliver Burkeman 5:38 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:38 ... that we could be doing.

Oliver Burkeman 5:39 Totally. I mean, a lot of these places to visit and things to do have always existed, but now you're sort of relentlessly exposed to them. Algorithms find specifically the ones you are gonna want to really do and, and sort of constantly, uh, bombard you with, with just those ones. So yeah, we are in a situation that's completely unprecedented in terms of letting us-See and sort of feel the pain of not being able to do. I mean, another good example, we talk about beautiful holidays, vacations, that's a great example. But kind of good causes is another one too, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:12 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 6:12 I mean, if you're the kind of compassionately-minded person who sits on social media and wants to sort of help people in the world who are suffering, you're seeing more instances of that, and hearing about-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:24 Mm

Oliver Burkeman 6:24 ... more instances of that than, like, the greatest saints in history ever-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:28 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 6:28 ... were ever exposed to. And, you know, it's great if you can do something about one or two of them. But the idea that you could ever sort of get your arms around all that, that we're just not designed to be capable of it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:38 Yeah. In my book on happiness, I, I wrote a chapter on eliminating choice.

Oliver Burkeman 6:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:42 That we, in a, in a world of infinite choice, more choice is not necessarily a good thing. In fact, we've got to get good at choosing when that choice actually matters.

Oliver Burkeman 6:52 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:52 And I see a, a similar theme to that throughout your book, this idea that you can't actually care about everything. You can't put your attention there. The state of the world at the moment, many people are getting really, really affected in their, their day-to-day life by what they're being exposed to in the news.

Oliver Burkeman 7:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:07 And there was a gorgeous bit in your book where you really mentioned that actually, yes, there can be all kinds of adversity going on, and problems which you may be being exposed to in the news. But you may choose to actually go and care for an elderly relative, or you may choose to go and actually care and do something good in the world in, in a different way that doesn't actually address that problem.

Oliver Burkeman 7:28 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:28 You know, I thought that was really quite an interesting way of looking at it.

Oliver Burkeman 7:31 Well, I just think, I feel very strongly about this, 'cause I really do think that there's this great temptation, especially when we spend so much of a day immersed in social media or just news in other forms. You, you come to sort of identify with that global level of things, and you come to think of wars and the climate and things a- as, you know, and they are incredibly important, and the climate perhaps most important of all. But you, you come to think of that as being the only level on which you can have a meaningful effect, when in many ways it's the only level on which us as individuals can have almost no effect in, in many contexts. You know, you can, you can give money, you can live more ethically, absolutely. But, but it's, it, it's almost like we're deliberately exposing ourselves most to that level of life at which our impact can be the, the smallest. And then you end up sort of devaluing all these other things that are completely, like, ought to be part of, uh, the definition of spending your life meaningfully, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:29 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 8:29 Caring for relatives, doing something to help make your little neighborhood more beautiful instead of only thinking on this sort of cosmic scale and global scale. Not because those global causes are not as important as we thought they were. I think they are that important. It's just that, you know, if, if the way you respond to that is suddenly thinking that you have got to sort of get your arms around it all, then that's just, it's just not gonna help anyway, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:58 Yeah. Not only does it not help, it actually then impacts your life and your circle of influence. Because if you're that affected by it-

Oliver Burkeman 9:04 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:05 ... it's very hard to be present in your life. It's very hard for that not to affect the quality of your work-

Oliver Burkeman 9:10 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:10 ... the quality of your relationships-

Oliver Burkeman 9:11 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:11 ... your ability to parent-

Oliver Burkeman 9:13 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:13 ... as well as you might want to.

Oliver Burkeman 9:14 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:15 And actually, there's so much in the world that we actually can't do anything about. And again, I think there's a freedom in just acknowledging that. And that's, that's the big theme I keep getting in your book, is this idea that there are limits.

Oliver Burkeman 9:26 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:26 There are limits to what we can do with our time. There are limits to what we can care about. And this idea that these ideas and these concepts are limitless-

Oliver Burkeman 9:35 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:36 ... is actually part of the problem.

Oliver Burkeman 9:38 Right. We are finite creatures existing in this world of infinite inputs and opportunities and suffering and, and all the rest of it, so there's always gonna be this mismatch. And I think what we spend a lot of our lives doing without realizing it is trying to, like, get over that-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:53 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 9:53 ... fundamental mathematical fact. [laughs] And, and you know, we've talked a lot about leisure, and we've talked about doing good and compassionate activities. But the most obvious one for most people on a day-to-day basis, I think, is just work, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:04 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 10:04 The volume of emails, the volume of things that the boss is asking you to do or that you want to do in your work. There's no reason why any of that should have any upper limit, and yet there's a very, very clear upper limit to how much you can do in a day's work and how many emails you can answer and, and how many demands you can meet.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:21 Email's an interesting one, isn't it? Because again, if we think back to communication maybe 20 years ago-

Oliver Burkeman 10:26 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:26 ... maybe 30 years ago.

Oliver Burkeman 10:28 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:28 A lot of the way we got communication or received it was the letterbox in the morning, right? The mail would come once a day.

Oliver Burkeman 10:35 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:35 And any important documentation or anything you had to look at would be in that.

Oliver Burkeman 10:40 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:41 Sure, you might get some phone calls at work potentially, but it wasn't like a constant stream. It's, you know, email [laughs] is this, it's like the postman's coming-

Oliver Burkeman 10:50 Yes. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:50 ... like 24 hours a day.

Oliver Burkeman 10:52 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:52 Literally 24 hours a day.

Oliver Burkeman 10:53 Hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:54 365 days a year.

Oliver Burkeman 10:55 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:55 You know, even on Christmas Day you're getting promotional emails from like Amazon or whoever else to sell you stuff, right?

Oliver Burkeman 11:00 Hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:00 So there's no kind of switch off from that. And I mean, before we get into emails, I think what's really interesting to me is how you came into writing about time and our relationship to time. Because from the research I've done, it appears that you were keen to learn all these productivity tools and actually get-

Oliver Burkeman 11:21 Oh, yeah. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:21 ... better at managing your time and getting the most, squeezing the most out of every ounce of time. You know, tell me a little bit about that journey, and at what point did you realize, "Actually, I'm playing the wrong game here."

Oliver Burkeman 11:33 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:33 Like, this is actually futile.

Oliver Burkeman 11:35 Yeah, it took a long time to get it through my thick skull, apparently. But one of the things I did was I wrote this column for The Guardian for years, a weekly column on psychology, where one of the things I did was to test out a lot of these kinds of, of techniques. And that was really useful and interesting, and I'm really glad I had the opportunity. But it was also a little bit enabling of my worst side in a way, right? Here I was thinking that I was one day gonna find the perfect set of productivity techniques and time management techniques that was gonna, like, make me capable of doing everything-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:03 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 12:04 ... and not have to say no to anything, and not have to worry that I was letting anybody down, and all of this.And then I had this job where I could justify trying out, like, another 50 new techniques and, and getting hold of another 20 books or courses on the topic 'cause it was for work. And actually that was really useful in the end, right? You sort of get to a point where you're thinking, "Well, okay, this is like the 100th way I've tried to structure my to-do list or organize my day, and it isn't bringing me the thing that I- I'm trying to get out of it. So maybe, as you say, maybe I'm, I'm playing the wrong game here rather than that I just haven't found the right technique." And it's not that these techniques are all rubbish, it's that if you come at them with what I think a lot of people come at them with, including me then, which is this desire to somehow feel totally on top of time and on top of your life and not to have to make difficult decisions about time anymore 'cause you can just handle everything, and really feeling secure about your role in your work and time and all the rest of it. I- if you think you're gonna get that out of them, you're gonna fail because what that is ultimately, deep down, I think, is a desire to not be limited by time in the way that we all are as, as humans. It's a desire to, to sort of avoid the fact that, yeah, limited time means you have to make tough choices. You have to not do things that, that would matter. And in order to do other things, you have to neglect certain potential friendships you could be nurturing in order to focus on some other relationships in your life. You just have to, 'cause we're just finite. And we, and especially me back then, I think, think that a lot of this productivity time management stuff-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:46 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 13:46 ... and other kinds of personal development advice, we think that they're like a backdoor to get around that and, and that just leads to more stress 'cause they're not.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:56 Yeah. It, it's really beautifully put. I'm drawn to this line towards the start of the book. "The more you try to manage your time with the goal of achieving a feeling of total control and freedom from the inevitable constraints of being human, the more stressful, empty, and frustrating life gets." I mean, I, I think that kind of says it all.

Oliver Burkeman 14:20 Uh, yeah. Thank you. Yes, I hope so. I mean, and there's a flip side to it, right? Which is that when you then, what that implies is that when you can ease up on that desire for control-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:30 Mm

Oliver Burkeman 14:30 ... and for this kind of unrealistic control, that's when you really do step into a kind of real agency. That's when you can do meaningful and joyful and cool things with your life, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:41 Mm-hmm.

Oliver Burkeman 14:41 So it's not just a matter of this thing you're trying to do is impossible.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:45 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 14:45 Give up. Live life in despair because there's no point. [laughs] It's like, no, that's the bit that if you can drop that, or at least somewhat drop that sort of constant, worried, anxious attempt to bring the world under your control so you can feel okay about it. If you can let go of that, that's when you can really, like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:04 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 15:04 ... plunge into life and do stuff that, that counts and that matters to you because you're no longer wasting all your time and attention on that, on that pointless quest.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:12 You know, constraints in life, I've come to realize more and more, are actually very freeing and, and liberating and actually, can actually, I guess, foster a lot of creativity.

Oliver Burkeman 15:23 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:23 As you were describing the impact of that sentence, I was drawn to this interview I heard in the '90s.

Oliver Burkeman 15:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:29 I don't know if you, uh, enjoyed the band Crowded House. I very much did in the '90s, one of my favorite bands back then. And I remember Neil Finn, the singer and songwriter in the band, I remember once in an interview, he said, "Yes, there are infinite instruments and musical themes and ideas we could bring in for any song, but we've decided that we're only gonna put on the album what the four of us are able to play." And you know, some of them could play multiple instruments, they could play that in the studio, but they weren't gonna bring in additional session musicians with their expertise to put in a saxophone solo here-

Oliver Burkeman 16:02 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:02 ... or put something else in here. You know, that was what? About 30 years ago when I heard that interview, but it always stayed with me because, as a musician myself, I've always been tempted to try and actually bring in lots of other stuff. "Oh, no, we could get that. We could get that."

Oliver Burkeman 16:14 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:14 "Oh, wouldn't it be great to have a sax solo here?" Or whatever.

Oliver Burkeman 16:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:17 In anything you're recording or, or, or creating. And I always think back to that going, "No, the constraints bring the creativity."

Oliver Burkeman 16:27 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:27 He beautifully articulated how actually no, the fact that it's only us four means we have to be more creative. We have to figure out solutions.

Oliver Burkeman 16:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:34 I see kind of quite a similar theme here. Once we put the limits on our time and know actually time is limited-

Oliver Burkeman 16:39 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:39 ... within that constraint, I think we can flourish and I guess be more creative.

Oliver Burkeman 16:45 I totally, totally agree, and I think in creativity it's often a matter of it bringing in those constraints like you're talking about there, and then sometimes in our daily time, it's just a matter of seeing that the constraints are there in a sort of non-negotiable way, whether we like it or not. And I think, yes, I think when we do the opposite to that, which is either try to sort of get over all constraints or to behave as if there aren't any constraints, it, it can feel it's the more comfortable path at first sometimes. But it, it leads nowhere good because it is so out of touch with reality that that's when you're gonna apportion your time wrongly, 'cause you're gonna think-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:22 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 17:22 ... "Well, f- first of all, I'll answer 100 emails before I get round to what really matters to me today." Well, if that's because you think you've got more time than you have, if you understood that you didn't, you might switch those two things around, spend the first part of the day on the thing that you cared about the most. That's just one example, but it's just a way of acting that respects the constraints that you're already in. And I don't know if you wanna talk about, like, distraction at some point 'cause it's a topic that slightly obsesses me. I think a lot of the th- of what we're doing when we sort of bounce away from our important work or difficult conversations or whatever it is into just scrolling down the phone-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:56 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 17:56 ... just escaping into the world of cyberspace, it is because it feels there, like there are no constraints. It is 'cause it feels like you're just sort of floating through this easy world of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:07 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 18:08 ... of limitless, like, God-like power.But we all know, you know, after a day spent doing that instead of the thing that you knew you meant to do, like it's not the way to get a purchase on life. It's not a way to, like, make a difference in a way that counts.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:22 And, and maybe that's the appeal. Maybe because we don't recognize there are limitations in our life, and so therefore we don't acknowledge it, we don't accept it, maybe that's why scrolling and disappearing down rabbit holes online feels so good because in that moment there does appear to be infinite possibility.

Oliver Burkeman 18:44 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:44 And maybe we sense a kind of slight disconnect that in our real life-

Oliver Burkeman 18:48 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:48 ... the offline world, there are limitations. But online, there doesn't appear to be any.

Oliver Burkeman 18:53 No, I think that's exactly the, that phenomenology, the feeling-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:55 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 18:55 ... of being online is, is absolutely that one of limitlessness. It's like, you know, can find out what's going on 5,000 miles away right now. I can be anyone that I wanna be-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:07 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 19:07 ... on an anonymous social media platform. All these different ways in which you do get to be limitless. And then I think, yeah, in some ways it makes it harder to then, like, write the chapter [laughs] you were trying to write or have the conversation with a romantic partner that is important but that might leave you feeling emotionally vulnerable. All these ways in which we come up against our limits day-to-day life. It's way more fun to just forget that, and I think we're all totally susceptible to that. Have been since the ancient world. It's not-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:35 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 19:36 ... that's not new. What's new is that, you know, we have a big structure of attention-based corporations waiting for us to, to grab us the moment that that, that urge arises. So it's a problematic combo.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:51 Given that time is limited and we can't do everything that we might want to do in life, are you a fan of bucket lists?

Oliver Burkeman 20:00 Depends what you mean, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:01 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 20:01 Depends how you relate to a bucket list. If a bucket list is something you've got to get through, then no, I'm not a fan of it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:06 Now, I'm a huge fan of Vivobarefoot shoes. I've been wearing them for about 12 years now. And one of the main reasons I love them is because when I'm wearing Vivos, I feel fully connected to the ground beneath my feet. What do we want? We want feet that move naturally. And because Vivos are wide, thin, and flexible, your foot can move in the way that it's meant to. A lot of modern shoes are stiff, they're narrow. They start to manipulate the way your foot functions. Whereas in Vivos, your feet can do what they're meant to do, and that means they help your feet become stronger. There was this trial that showed within four months of wearing Vivos, your feet are around 60% stronger. Your feet are your foundation, and when you've got problems in your feet, it goes all the way up the chain. It can go to your ankle, to your knee, to your hip, to your back, and even to your shoulder and neck. And as a doctor, I have seen back pain, hip pain, and knee pain actually start to get better when people start to wear barefoot shoes. To get 20% off your first order, go to vivobarefoot.com/livemore.

Oliver Burkeman 21:20 If it's a list of ... If it's like a menu of things that you might do, great. That kind of list for those sort of things i- is fantastic. I think the problem with bucket lists, it's basically the same problem as an overfilled email inbox or an incredibly long list of, like, housework chores you've got to do. It feels like it isn't the same problem, 'cause it's a list of fun stuff instead of, like, onerous, weighty stuff. But the same problem arises that we're exposed to far more opportunities-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:50 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 21:50 ... for things that feel like we wanna do them than we'll get to do. And it's almost harder to spot in the case of hedonistic type things because y- again, you know, like, on some level all of us are sort of annoyed by having various duties we don't wanna have to fulfill. But you think of things like that as, like, okay, the world is my oyster. But I call it, in the book I call that, like, existential overwhelm, 'cause it's still overwhelm. It's just overwhelm that comes from being alive in the world that we have today, wanting to be limitless in the way that we do want.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:23 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 22:23 And then constantly coming up against the fact that you are limited. So yeah, the person who's, like, retired and has tons of money and is using it all to travel the world, like, they will have a better time than the person who has to spend all day doing tedious chores they didn't want to do. But they'll still have this, like, gnawing basic problem of feeling overwhelmed if they believe that they are ever going to sort of, like, get their arms around everything-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:52 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 22:52 ... that the world has to offer, see all the places that matter, have all the fun that there is to be had. It's like it's, it's beyond us. And it's-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:59 It co-

Oliver Burkeman 22:59 ... stressful to pursue it because it's beyond us.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:01 It really is. I mean, you've quoted the Tao Te Ching on several occasions-

Oliver Burkeman 23:04 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:04 ... in the book. There's a phrase that certainly in the translation I have where it says, "Knowing what is enough is true wealth."

Oliver Burkeman 23:12 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:13 I kind of feel that really fits your entire book, really. This idea that, you know, knowing what is enough, that's ... 'Cause, 'cause when we always want more, we think, oh, when I go on that holiday, or when that happens, or when I get to inbox zero-

Oliver Burkeman 23:28 Right. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:28 ... as I believe you did at some point.

Oliver Burkeman 23:30 Oh, yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:30 Um, well, well maybe, maybe let's go into email, because I think email is the source of a lot of overwhelm to people, and I do think that a lot of the productivity advice makes us feel that, oh, there is a way to master this-

Oliver Burkeman 23:44 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:44 ... and get on top. So I'm a, I'm a black belt at email.

Oliver Burkeman 23:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:47 Actually reading your story with that has made me feel a lot better because I'm, I'm pretty rubbish at email. And I'm okay with that, and I've decided [laughs] I don't want to get good at it.

Oliver Burkeman 23:57 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:57 But as like, like, there are other things in my life-

Oliver Burkeman 23:59 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:59 ... I would like to get good at-

Oliver Burkeman 24:00 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:00 ... but getting good at email is just not one of them. So maybe you couldExpand a little bit on getting to inbox zero. Maybe explain what that is for people who aren't aware. Uh, and then also, you know, what did that teach you?

Oliver Burkeman 24:12 Well, it's controversial what it is. People in this world of productivity geekery argue about what that means.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:17 Okay.

Oliver Burkeman 24:17 But I'm working on the assumption that it means something like the idea that the sort of default state of your email inbox should be empty. And so at least every so often, and a- arguably every day, you should be going through it, answering what you need to answer, dealing with what you need to deal with, deleting what you need to delete. It shouldn't be mounting up in this way that is so familiar to so many people with 10,000 unread messages-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:38 Yeah [laughs]

Oliver Burkeman 24:39 ... on the, on the inbox indicator or whatever. The really important point to make, I think, about what happened when I really tried to get on top of email is that when you get really good at getting through your email, what happens is that you get much more email because firstly, you reply to rep- people more and at a quicker tempo, and so they get back to you at a quicker tempo with replies to your replies and, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:00 [laughs]

Oliver Burkeman 25:00 ... it's, you're busier that way. You get a reputation as being responsive on email. Um, so more people email you, whereas if you sort of fail to res- reply often, what happens is people find some other solution to the problem that they had. And it just really dramatizes this idea that the supply, the supply is infinite, effectively. Um, your capacity to get through that supply of incoming emails, I mean, is very finite, and your attempt to get more efficient with processing that infinite supply won't get you to the end of it, because it's infinite, but it will get you, leave you more stressed and, and busy. And I think it's worth saying, there are probably some people, um, hearing this who are like, "Well, it's all very well for you," or maybe for me to say, "Well, I don't, I don't wanna get good at email." It's like, uh, uh, somebody might say, "Well, like in my job I'll get fired if I don't reply to all the emails I get."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:52 Yeah, I get that.

Oliver Burkeman 25:52 But the, but the logic applies everywhere. I think that's the really important thing to try to zero in on, right? W- no matter what your position is or your job or your work, y- your time is finite, and if you are subjected in any part of that to an infinite supply of something [laughs] and you make it your business to get through that, that will end up taking over your-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:14 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 26:14 ... whole job. So I definitely sympathize with anyone who feels that they have to sort of keep an inbox zero just as a basic precondition of their work. But then they and their employer, whoever, is losing out on something else they could be giving in that situation because it is not actually possible to contain these infinite supplies-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:33 Mm

Oliver Burkeman 26:33 ... these infinite inputs in the way that we think it, it ought to be. Or, you know, maybe you love email and you want to be someone who stays on top of all your email. Make that decision, but don't imagine that you're deciding to sort of keep it contained and that's fine, and then you can get on with what really matters. No, if you, if you really focus on getting more and more efficient at an incoming supply of something that is actually limitless, then that will effectively take over your life. That's just, that's just how it works.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:58 I guess what you're talking about, certainly to me, is intentionality about living an intentional life, like understanding that we're making choices all the time, and actually many of us are making choices that we don't even realize we're making.

Oliver Burkeman 27:11 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:11 Which, which I thought was really interesting.

Oliver Burkeman 27:14 Yeah, I think this is like, this is, goes to the heart of it for me because it's tempting to think that in a book like this or lots of other people writing on this kind of topic that, that I'm saying, "Why don't you live a, a limited life?" Like, "Why don't you decide to live in a way that is finite instead of limitless?" And it's like, no. The point is you already are doing every day whether you like it or not. You already are making something like a choice-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:45 Mm

Oliver Burkeman 27:45 ... uh, to, to sacrifice all sorts of things in favor of other things. That's already happening. The choice we have is whether to do that consciously or not. You are always choosing. It wouldn't be the case if you had eternal life, if you were limitless, if you were infinite, you know, because then there'd always be more time to try everything and to do everything. But because we're not, because we're finite, every choice you make is a choice not to do something else with that little portion of your finite time. And I think the freedom that we can aspire to, we can't be free of that situation, but the freedom we can aspire to is the freedom of making those decisions consciously and seeing like, "Okay, you know, I've decided that this matters more than this for today, and, and it's not because that other thing doesn't matter. It's because I've got to make a choice."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:31 At the start of the book, you talk about a lot of these productivity hacks, and you talk about some of these books that we've been exposed to over the years, like Tim Ferriss' The 4-Hour Workweek. And I've gotta be honest, for me, when I first read The 4-Hour Workweek, I don't know, 10 years ago, it was pretty life-changing for me because at that time in my life, I had not come across something like that. And I mean, I think the title is just a super catchy title, but I don't think it's about working four hours a week. What I took from it was that, oh, time is a resource. It's a commodity that I can value as such. And I honestly think that was one of the first times in my life where I, I kind of saw time and, and suddenly started to measure it and value it, which I think was necessary for my progression-

Oliver Burkeman 29:23 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:23 ... to understand that actually maybe I need to defend my time a bit better, and maybe I need to think about how I use it or, you know, protect it or give it away, whatever that might be. But like with most messages, they're never perfect for everyone at every aspects of life. I think that worked for me back then, but I'm really fascinated by the argument you make in the book that even seeing time as a resource, as a commodity that we need to defend and protect, you're also making the case that even that is fundamentally problematic, and I think I agree. I think I really agree with what you're saying. So I think for me, what, perhaps you could speak to that.

Oliver Burkeman 30:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:02 But I guess for me, that message that time is something I need to view differently absolutely worked for me 10 years ago.And now I feel that it's the next stage. It's like, okay, cool, now you're valuing time. [laughs] Now actually maybe the way you're experiencing time and, and looking at time isn't that helpful.

Oliver Burkeman 30:22 Yeah. I mean, I just think both of these things are true.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:24 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 30:24 I, I think there's, I think there's tons of huge value in The 4-Hour Workweek. I mean, one of the things that I think's so interesting about the focus of that book is, is, is on the idea of not deferring the sort of joy that you want to have in your life until some point in the future-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:39 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 30:39 ... when you're gonna be ready to have it. That seems... I like, I just agree with that completely, this idea of, I think he calls them mini retirements, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 30:46 This idea that, like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:47 He does

Oliver Burkeman 30:47 ... how can, how can you spend three weeks this year doing one of these things that you're mentally postponing to some time that might not even arrive, you know, in several decades' time? No. Do it now. I think that's absolutely bang on. I think that seeing time as a very precious resource i- is like, is like one lens that, that really counts because the alternative is to act like you've got all the time in the world.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:10 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 31:10 And that is very dangerous. But yeah, as you say, there's this other lens which is, like, the whole notion of the sort of resource view of time, the idea that there's me and then there's some time that I have, a little bit like some money that I have or some physical possessions that I have or something, that it doesn't quite work and it leads us into some strange places. Because actually, you know, we don't have time in that sense, right? You don't... You just get one moment at a time. You can't, you can't actually put time aside. You can't pause time. You can't decide to not spend the next minute of your life. Like, you're just living it. You're just in it. It's a fairly involved argument [laughs] at that point in the book, but I think that the basic point here is just that if you try to take this attitude of making the best use of something, when in fact it's more like you just are a portion of time in some mysterious way, right? Let me see if I can convey this. It's like you're trying to get sort of on top of your own life. You're trying to, you're trying to be like the air traffic controller of things-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:10 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 32:10 ... somehow, and that sort of alienates you from actually being here, right here in the moment of your life. 'Cause everything, I mean, apart from anything else, everything becomes a question of, like, am I using this hour best for, what is it, some future goal, um, to make the most money, to achieve this outcome I want, to please somebody who I think needs to be pleased in my life, you know? And if you're only asking about your time, am I using it in the right way for that future goal, it's almost impossible-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:44 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 32:44 ... to find it truly meaningful and absorbing in the moment because those are just two different fundamentally different lenses, right? So in a way you almost have to be willing to waste time if what we mean by waste time is, is not be using it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:58 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 32:58 ... in an instrumental way in order to use it well, which is a total weird paradox that I'm still trying to get my mind around, so.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:03 It, it's... These are, these are these big existential questions like who are we, what does it mean to live a good life, a meaningful life. I, I love the idea that if you're constantly analyzing and seeing am I using my time well, yeah, you're not in your life.

Oliver Burkeman 33:16 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:17 You're outside of your life looking in-

Oliver Burkeman 33:18 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:19 ... which can have value from time to time.

Oliver Burkeman 33:20 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:20 But if that's the kind of... If you're spending all of your waking hours like that every day, you're never in your life and actually experiencing it. There's a real theme I, I, I find as I, as I read the book that you, you do mention Buddhist philosophy at times. You mention Zen philosophy. And ultimately it's about presence, isn't it? It's about being present with your time, being in the moment because what is time? But I love that argument in the book that you don't have time.

Oliver Burkeman 33:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:52 It's not something you can own. You know, your life is time. Like-

Oliver Burkeman 33:56 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:57 ... you can't have it and package it up and carry it around with you. It's kind of... 'Cause what's happening as you're doing that is you're spending time.

Oliver Burkeman 34:05 Yeah. Yeah. No, it's really, it's quite sort of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:07 It's-

Oliver Burkeman 34:07 No, it can really sort of bend your brain quite a bit. But, like, I mean, one way into this that I always think is interesting is anyone hearing this, right? When you think about your time in that sort of abstracted way, y- you know, you think about questions like when am I next going on holiday or have I got enough time to do this project by Friday afternoon or, or, um, am I free on Saturday morning? Like, whatever images come into your mind when you try to think about that, it might be calendars or it might be, um, little yardsticks or anything, it's something to do with space. It's not time. And this is a point that philosophers have made in the past, right? It seems like we can only think about time in this abstracted way by, by turning it into space. So you're always thinking about, like, oh, there's that day and there's that day, and in your mind there's sort of, there's some sort of thing in space. And I think what that is a clue to is that, i- is that time in reality is not what we think it is, right? It isn't this thing that we have. It isn't this thing that, that sort of w- we can control what's gonna happen in this box of it here and in this bo- not there, you know, which is all, again, these spatial metaphors. Actually, I think it makes more sense to s- to think that, like, we just are a stretch of time. We're just, we're, we're so deeply in our time. We can try to, like, make it objective by drawing calendars and thinking about timelines and all that stuff, but actually what time really is is just for each f- for each of us is just, like, you living your life. Uh, I'm-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:51 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 35:51 ... not sure that words can actually get to this.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:53 It can't.

Oliver Burkeman 35:53 But maybe this, maybe this helps a little bit. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:54 No, i- it's such an important point 'cause time is life. How we spend our time, how we experience that defines our experience of life, right?

Oliver Burkeman 36:03 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:03 It's the same thing, isn't it?

Oliver Burkeman 36:04 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:05 I- it's absolutely the same thing. And, like, I, I've often thought over the last years, you know, what is time anyway, certainly clock time? It's a human construct, right? I, in fact, as I've gone down this route, I no longer wear a watch because actuallyAnd, and I get that, you know, we can't be constrained by the infinite possibility that there is no time. You know, we have to meet people-

Oliver Burkeman 36:27 Right, exactly. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:27 ... or do things at a certain time.

Oliver Burkeman 36:28 Still got ... Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:29 But I don't wear a watch.

Oliver Burkeman 36:30 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:30 I used to my entire life from being a young kid. I used to love seeing what time it is. But then suddenly your experience of everything is defined by, well, how long, how long have I got left?

Oliver Burkeman 36:40 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:40 How long have I been doing this for? Which kind of takes you out off the experience. I know this sounds deeply philosophical, and I guess it is.

Oliver Burkeman 36:49 There's a writer who I quote in the book, David Cain, a Canadian writer and blogger who, whose work I really admire, who makes this point that, like, when you think you have, like, three hours to complete some project, or say you've gotta tidy the house and you've got half an hour to do it or something, you don't really have three hours or have half an hour. What you mean is you expect it. You, you ... It means-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:09 Mm

Oliver Burkeman 37:09 ... your, your best guess in the present moment now is that nothing's gonna get in your way until the three hours when the next thing's gonna happen or you have to go and pick up your kids from school, whatever. And that's actually a really deep contrast, that notion of, like, actually having time versus just saying, "No, I expect it. I'm here in the present moment, and I believe that things are going to unfold in this, this way in the future." But I have n- None of us have any control over the future-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:38 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 37:38 ... like true control. And so because we want that control, because we want to be limitless about, in that sense as well, in the sense of being able to, like, dictate what's gonna be happening, that's just a constant recipe for anxiety. 'Cause our desire to control the, the next moment is, is rubbing up against the absolute knowledge that actually you, you can't. So, you know, if you're a sort of chronic worrier about trains and travel related things, which I definitely have some experience of, you sit there in the present moment, like, hoping that you're gonna get to the station on time or hoping that the train's gonna arrive on time. And it feels in that moment like once that thing happens and it's on time, you're gonna be able to relax, but you're never gonna be able to relax 'cause then there's the next thing, right? Then will the train arrive on time? Will your n- Will, uh, will, uh, will there be a taxi if you need to get a taxi?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:24 And, and you say in the present moment, but you're not actually in the present moment-

Oliver Burkeman 38:28 Right. No, exactly. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:28 ... are you? Because you're-

Oliver Burkeman 38:29 Right, right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:29 ... you're planning for the future-

Oliver Burkeman 38:31 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:31 ... or/and when that happens. So-

Oliver Burkeman 38:32 And you're trying to, like, sort of reach out to the present moment and exert some control over the next one. Of course that's gonna be a recipe for anxiety, 'cause, like, that's not possible. And I think it's fine to plan, right? It's fine to say, "Here's how I'd like today to go. Here's what ... When I have some say in how today goes, I'm gonna steer it in this direction rather than that direction." Fine. But this idea that you're, like, controlling the future from the present, again, it's kind of a ... It gets kind of deep, but I think it's, I think we're all prone to it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:01 Yeah. It is deep, but I think it's such an important, it's an important point for us all to consider. I, I wonder, you know, procrastination is something that many people struggle with.

Oliver Burkeman 39:11 Oh, yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:12 You know?

Oliver Burkeman 39:12 Me too. Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:14 Yeah. And I wonder, you know, what do you think is going on in procrastination? Do you think it's to do with this fact that we don't recognize the limitations of time, therefore we think there's infinite possibility, but there isn't? You know, how, how do you see procrastination?

Oliver Burkeman 39:27 Yeah, I think it is related to that. I mean, I think there are lots of different flavors of procrastination. So there are people who are very afraid of failing. There are a few people who are very afraid of succeeding. There are people who have all sorts of other different psychodramas going on. We're all, we're all different and messed up in different ways. But the argument that I make that sort of brings all that, or tries to bring all that together, is that whenever you're procrastinating on something that matters to you, you are trying to avoid some kind of experience of encountering your limitations. You know, if I'm procrastinating on writing a chapter of a book, the reason that I'm not ... I mean, I care about that thing, and I don't particularly care about what I'm doing instead, which is probably like, you know, scrolling or, or, you know, cleaning the kitchen when it doesn't really need cleaning as a displacement activity or something. So it seems at first weird that I would, like, want to procrastinate on the thing I care about rather than, and do the things I don't care about. But, but I think that's because, and again, I'll stick with this writing example just for a minute, for me to actually write a chapter is to risk that I don't have what it takes to write the chapter, or I don't have enough time to finish the thing on deadline, or that it won't be well received by people who I would like to receive it well. All these kind of ways in which I can't control the experience are brought up when I'm doing something-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:50 Mm

Oliver Burkeman 40:50 ... that I care about, and that makes it very tempting to just not go there. And if you are ... And that's ... Perfectionism is a big part of this, and I feel like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:58 Sorry to interrupt. If you're enjoying this video and you want to learn more, then do check out my free special guide, which contains the six crucial steps you need to take in your life to not only build healthy habits, but also to make them stick. If you wanna get ahold of this free guide, all you have to do is click on the link in the description box below.

Oliver Burkeman 41:20 Certainly historically that was, like, my problem to a T. Like, the one way to feel totally in control of some project that you really care about in your life and, like, it is totally perfect still is never to start it, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:36 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 41:36 'Cause then you're just, you've got this beautiful mental image of this song you're gonna write or marriage you're gonna have or house you're gonna find or book you're gonna write, and it's pristine, and it doesn't need to ... Nothing, nothing can go wrong with it as long as it is completely unreal. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:54 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 41:54 And then the moment that it actually starts being created because you're doing something in the real world, in one way or another, you're gonna run up against the inevitability of imperfection and limit. It's going to be hard, or it's going to be uncertain, or it's going to be a little bit less than the perfect image you'd had of it or something. And that's just baked into, to bringing it into reality. So then I think it becomes very tempting for people to never quite get started on things because it, it, it feels... nicer and-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:25 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 42:25 ... more powerful in a way. If you feel more powerful while you haven't, like, let it out into the world, it's a bogus kind of power because obviously you're not, you haven't done it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:33 And you've also got that sense of control 'cause it's still undone.

Oliver Burkeman 42:36 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:36 So actually there's still that control. I could do it.

Oliver Burkeman 42:38 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:38 If I wanted to do it-

Oliver Burkeman 42:39 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:39 ... I could do it, but-

Oliver Burkeman 42:40 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:40 ... yeah, perfectionism is hugely problematic. I've also had those tendencies for much of my life, and I, I think I would say that that is largely or, or certainly in a huge, in huge part a thing of the past.

Oliver Burkeman 42:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:56 Like, I really feel I've let go of that in many ways, and it's been liberating.

Oliver Burkeman 43:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:02 As we sit recording, you know, my fifth book came out about a week ago, right? Fifth book in five years, and-

Oliver Burkeman 43:11 I need to ask you about productivity tips.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:12 Well, well, well, we'll, we'll talk about that.

Oliver Burkeman 43:13 We'll come onto that. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:14 But the, if someone had told me that six years ago-

Oliver Burkeman 43:18 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:18 ... I'd have thought, "No way. No way can I write five books in the next five years." But it's not just that. It's this idea that I've had a deadline to work to-

Oliver Burkeman 43:29 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:29 ... and this idea that when that deadline is here, when the manuscript gets sent off to print, it will be as good as I could do at that moment. It doesn't mean the ideas stop. It doesn't mean... Like, I know if I had two more months-

Oliver Burkeman 43:44 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:44 ... the book would be different 'cause the ideas don't just stop at that time.

Oliver Burkeman 43:47 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:48 The limitation is there.

Oliver Burkeman 43:49 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:49 And therefore it's just a snapshot in time of the best I could do-

Oliver Burkeman 43:54 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:54 ... around the idea-

Oliver Burkeman 43:54 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:54 ... at that time. And that's liberating because then when you are up against the deadline, it's like, well, hey, it's, it's gonna be good to go then. A- and it-

Oliver Burkeman 44:05 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:05 ... it will be what it will be. I- perfection, it's never quite done.

Oliver Burkeman 44:09 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:10 I think that goes back to what you're talking about. The idea about time is that there are limits. There's no way to perfectly spend your day. Maybe that's the myth that we're sold these days, which is why your book is such a welcome antidote to that. It's kinda like that doesn't exist. No one is-

Oliver Burkeman 44:29 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:29 ... spending the perfect day.

Oliver Burkeman 44:30 Yeah. Yeah, I think perfection, pretty much by definition, perfection doesn't exist in reality, and that is at the core of all of this, right? Because-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:38 So how come you're not a perfectionist anymore?

Oliver Burkeman 44:41 Well, I don't know that I'm not a perfectionist, but I'm, I'm definitely in recovery to a significant extent, and I think that, you know, uh, lots of different parts of that puzzle. One is just, uh, you know, something in me, deep in me steered me into newspaper journalism first as a way of, you know, working in a very deadline-driven environment like that will, will have a tendency to sort of slightly beat the perfectionism out of you-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:04 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 45:04 ... because, you know, you'll get to whatever it was, Monday, Tuesday morning, and you still haven't got a good idea for your weekly column. Well, then you have to use one of the bad ideas. Like, I mean, of course. And what you learn after a while is bears very little resemblance to the ou- output anyway. Like, very often, the bad ideas are the best columns. Very often the columns that I thought were least good were the ones that people seemed most excited by. You know, it's like, just don't know. I've got no idea, so you might as well just do it. That was part of it. And then writing this book in a different way, um, I think becoming a parent is an-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:38 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 45:38 ... interesting part of this because then you're in this relationship where like, I mean, it's true of all relationships, but it's very obvious with small children that they're just gonna keep... You can't press pause. Like, they're just gonna- they're, they're gonna be a day older tomorrow and a day older after that, and, and very swiftly, you know. You can prepare when you know a baby's coming. You can prepare to try to be sort of perfect in those first months or something. But as soon as you're then in it, it's just like, it's all moving so fast. It's like, and, you know, obviously there's not gonna be any perfection here. Obviously, it's just gonna be constant improvisation and winging it. Yeah, which, which we all are doing all the time anyway.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:19 Is part of the problem that we, we, we now live in a very individualistic society where we're told we can do anything we want? You write about the digital nomad and how that's a misnomer actually in, in terms of how we actually articulate that. This idea though that we can be anything we want. We can master our, our schedules, our time. We can travel when we want. We wanna work in a coffee shop. We can do all that. But by having no limits, it's actually problematic, and, and I love this idea that we potentially should be constrained by the limits of community-

Oliver Burkeman 46:53 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:53 ... and people around us in a way that we're not anymore. So maybe you could speak to that a little bit.

Oliver Burkeman 46:57 Yeah, I think this is a really important part of it all, the way that certain kinds of tradition, including but not limited to religious traditions, you know. One of the things they do is they impose some kind of temporal structure on life. So they make it that you do certain things at certain times, whether you like it or not. And if you are, you know, people who are religious and go to church or another place of worship on a regular basis will understand this notion, right? You don't just go when you really feel like it, and the benefit of it is something more than that. But likewise, you know, if you go to a band rehearsal or choir, or you, you meet people to play a football match on a weekly basis or something, like, it only has the value it has because you've all decided that you're all gonna be in the same place at the same time. It can't work otherwise. And yet, at the same time as we have all these very obvious examples staring us in the face of how, you know, you have to be synchronized, you have to give up a little bit of personal dictatorship over your schedule in order to get these benefits. At the same time, we have this cultural value that says, yeah, the goal here for everybody in their ideal world should be to be absolutely in control of their own schedules. To get up every morning, like the dream would be, you get up every morning, you do exactly what you want to do at exactly whatever time you want. And I use the digital nomad in the book as an example of that, right? That's sort of the epitome of this, this idea I'm gonna go and work from a beach, wherever I, you know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:19 Mm-hmm.

Oliver Burkeman 48:19 It's all just gonna be me in charge, and more honest people who've done that will tell you that one of the key characteristics of that life is that it's, it's quite lonely because-You're not held in any of those kind of webs, and you're not able to sort of participate in those kind of rhythms. Precisely, you sort of placed yourself outside of that in your pursuit of total freedom. So one of the things that I've really found in my own life in the last few years for sure, and this is partly to do with how becoming a parent binds you to other people's rhythms more closely, rhythms of school, rhythms of after-school things, rhythms of play dates, and, you know, you have to work with your spouse in a completely different way. All of this, again, is true for everybody. It's just very clear for parents, I think, is that these are good things. Like, these are benefits-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:10 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 49:10 ... to, they, I definitely have-- they definitely frustrate me sometimes. It's not like I find them, like, super enjoyable every day all the time. But the alternative of just sort of drifting like one little atom through the, through the world is not, is not a preferable alternative. The sacrifice that I have to make of the part of myself that would love to just, like, draw up a schedule at eight o'clock in the morning where I just got to say everything, like, that sacrifice is worth making for-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:41 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 49:41 ... a fulfilling life. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:43 I hope that last section is empowering for many people listening or watching at the moment, Oliver. Because I think if you are, you know, if you're, if you have a busy family life-

Oliver Burkeman 49:58 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:58 ... and, you know, there's work, and then there's, you've got to sort the kids out and, you know, and Saturday means swimming lessons or whatever is going on, it's tempting, isn't it, to think, "Oh man, look at those guys who are just free and they can travel the world on their laptop, and they've got nothing."

Oliver Burkeman 50:15 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:15 Right? Nothing. But I think what you said there hopefully is like, hey, listen, the grass, the grass is usually never greener on the other side of anybody else in life.

Oliver Burkeman 50:25 [laughs] Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:25 Right? But that comes at a cost. There's a cost to everything. That comes at a cost. You're doing it by yourself. You don't have this structure and this community. Like, I even noticed, I've been a father now for over 11 years. I live with my wife and my two kids, and if they ever go away-

Oliver Burkeman 50:40 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:41 ... let's say, I don't know, they're away for two nights somewhere while I'm working, and they've gone away to, like, you know, my wife's parents or-

Oliver Burkeman 50:48 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:48 ... wherever. You know, initially-

Oliver Burkeman 50:51 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:52 ... it feels, oh man, I've got... Oh, I could do this, I could do that, I could do-

Oliver Burkeman 50:56 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:56 ... whatever I want.

Oliver Burkeman 50:57 And then you just sort of waste it. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:58 Yeah, yeah. And you, and you waste it, and then-

Oliver Burkeman 51:02 It's not that fun

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:02 ... it's not that fun. You're like, oh, like I can't wait till they're back.

Oliver Burkeman 51:07 Yes. No, I, I know that. I totally know that feeling. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:10 But-

Oliver Burkeman 51:10 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:10 ... and even that term waste, right? I wrote that down before. I wanted to talk to you about this concept of wasting time because wasting time, I think is what we say in reference to what we think we should be doing with our time, which is maximizing e- an every moment of it.

Oliver Burkeman 51:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:27 And, and actually some of the most pleasurable experiences when we actually, by society's standard, are wasting time-

Oliver Burkeman 51:34 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:34 ... doing nothing, staring at the birds.

Oliver Burkeman 51:37 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:37 'Cause then we feel we're wasting time. That means we're wasting our lives-

Oliver Burkeman 51:41 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:42 ... and therefore, oh, we should be doing more, but actually those little moments where you do waste time, well, that's kind of what life's about, isn't it?

Oliver Burkeman 51:50 No, I think so. Language gets in the way here, right? 'Cause wasting is a bad thing almost by definition. But actually we've come to define using time well in a way that excludes lots and lots of really pleasurable and enjoyable and meaningful experiences. Again, I think where we use that word is we judge experiences that aren't leading somewhere, right? So we think of a day being wasted if I haven't sort of made progress towards my various goals that are in the future, and that's important. I mean, you know, of course, everyone has some kind of outcomes that they're working towards. But if you define every moment that doesn't add up towards those outcomes as wasted, then yeah, you're gonna miss the very substance of, like, being alive and yeah, no, totally. It, it always reminds me, I don't know if this is quite the right parallel, but, like, it's almost this idea that once you stop focusing on where you're getting, you actually have a fuller experience. It always reminds me of my experience, and I feel like half the people I ever have this conversation with about doing a driving test, where, like, about half the people I've ever discussed this with say that, like, it was only after they were absolutely convinced they'd failed 'cause they screwed up in the first few minutes of their driving test that they were able to, like, relax into their driving test-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:01 Oh, yeah

Oliver Burkeman 53:01 ... and pass it and do really well. It's a very common experience for, with driving tests. And it's just this notion, I li- I like it because it really speaks to this idea that, like, sometimes you need to not be trying to make the most of an experience or to achieve a certain outcome in order to just, like, be most sort of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:18 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 53:19 ... relaxedly in it. And then you find, as in the driving test case, that you also do accomplish things in those moments.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:24 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 53:24 So, like, you know, you're probably looking, watching the birds or the flowers or something, you... and you do get a really good idea for some piece of work-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:32 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 53:32 ... that you've been, like, stumped on. Right? But only because you weren't really trying to, to do that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:38 Tell me a little bit about your friend's apartment in New York where the lift, I believe, stops on every floor between Friday evening and Saturday evening. I think I, I really, really liked that example-

Oliver Burkeman 53:52 Oh, interesting

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:52 ... because it speaks to something I've been thinking about in my life for, for a few years, which I'll go into in just a moment, but could you maybe paint the picture of the apartment block?

Oliver Burkeman 54:00 Yeah. This is on the Lower East Side where, um, which is historically and traditionally a, a very Jewish part of Manhattan, and the Shabbat elevator is designed so that Jews who follow the, uh, Sabbath restrictions don't have to press a button in the elevator because pressing a button to make an electrical connection is an example of lighting a fire, I think, is how the sort of scholarly, legalistic approach to this goes. And, um, so in order to avoid that and a- a- allow people to get off at their floors and get on and to leave the building, the, the elevator has to stop at every single floor regardless. And it does seem a little bit absurd, but it's almost, you know, a lot of these rules, both in Judaism and Christianity and elsewhere, about sort of what you can't do on a day of rest, th- they kind of have to beUh, absurd at least to secular ears, or at least to, you know, to anybody. Because if you only do the things, um, that seem reasonable to you to bring yourself to rest, to end work, then you won't actually stop working. You'll be like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:03 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 55:03 ... "Well, okay, maybe I should take a couple of hours, but it's reasonable for me to spend a couple of hours in my email inbox [laughs] this afternoon as well." And so all the people and the traditions and the religions who have, like, developed these different notions of Sabbaths or days of rest, they've all ended up with some combination of, um, restrictions that almost seem a little bit, uh, too much, a little bit, like, overkill. Because it is so hard for us, we're so wired to just keep going and keep the flywheel, um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:33 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 55:33 ... spinning. So, you know, that's- that's why I bring that up. It's like a very vivid example of, like, okay, I'm gonna have to wait every floor [laughs] and stop, and the doors are gonna open, and they're gonna close. And, like, you know, if you live on the 25th floor of a high-rise apartment building, it's a good time to develop some patience.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:51 They do feel absurd relative to what is the norm now-

Oliver Burkeman 55:57 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:57 ... with our secular mindset, with our individual mindset, that we can do whatever we want, whenever we want. I'm not, I'm not following those restrictions.

Oliver Burkeman 56:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:04 Why the hell... I'm not gonna have someone tell me-

Oliver Burkeman 56:06 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:06 ... what, what I'm gonna do on Sundays or Saturdays.

Oliver Burkeman 56:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:09 But I've really been coming around, say, the last years, that we need to, all of us, self-impose Sabbaths on our life.

Oliver Burkeman 56:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:17 I think I shared this story once on the podcast before, but a friend of mine who I've only got to know in the last few years, we once went round for, I think, Sunday lunch, and I met her and her husband, and the children in my family went, and they're a Jewish family.

Oliver Burkeman 56:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:34 And they've always followed the Sabbath, so between, you know, Friday evening and Saturday evening. I, I, I don't know the exact, uh, rules that were followed, but it would be family time.

Oliver Burkeman 56:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:46 They would spend it together. I think family would come round, potentially. They wouldn't answer the phone. They wouldn't go out and do things, school clubs, all that kind of stuff. And I just thought, "Isn't that incredible?" Because you can always fill up the time. It... I was actually literally chatting to my wife about this about, about three hours ago before you arrived, about, you know, a hobby that one of my kids can do at the weekends, and this would take place, I think, every Sunday afternoon. And we were just sort of discussing the pros and cons. Yeah, there's loads of pros, but also, I think we just need to be really careful, 'cause I love the idea of trying to introduce some sort of Sabbath-

Oliver Burkeman 57:27 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:27 ... into our weekend where, uh, as a general rule, I don't know whether it would be Saturday or Sunday, we're not going to do activities. Like, maybe it's we get your parents around every week at that time. Maybe we, we create an environment whereby, no, no, I'm not gonna be looking at email on that day.

Oliver Burkeman 57:43 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:43 We're not gonna be doing... You know, I think it really speaks to this idea, the, the central themes in your book, this idea that there's always something you could do. And we can make an argument that, oh, yeah, that will give these benefits, and that will give that benefit.

Oliver Burkeman 57:55 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:55 But there's a cost. There's a cost to all of those things, you know?

Oliver Burkeman 57:59 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:59 Families are disintegrating. There's not enough time for people to spend with their families. You know, I certainly feel I've been guilty of that, certainly, you know, with our wider family. What if every Sunday, for example, I say, "No, we're not doing stuff."

Oliver Burkeman 58:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:13 We're either going for walks in nature, or we're having family rounds, or we're enjoying meals together. That actually self-imposed restriction, I think, would yield so many benefits.

Oliver Burkeman 58:24 I think you're, I think you're right, and I'm... s- I mean, I f- I feel like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:27 Haven't done it yet.

Oliver Burkeman 58:28 No, no.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:28 To be clear.

Oliver Burkeman 58:28 I was gonna say, I feel like my family is in a similar situation, like, sort of you toy with these things, and you have kind of big dreams about them. But then you have to sort of ma- integrate them into, into the r- reality of existence, and I think a big part of that, too, is kind of expectations. One thing, one thing that I've really found in myself is that, like, if I'm gonna expect in the course of a day at the weekend to spend some really good quality time with my family, and also, you know, do a couple of hours work 'cause I, 'cause I need to, that is a recipe for just so much sort of... The friction between those, like, bothers me and causes me anxiety and all the rest of it. If it's just decided and agreed since long in advance that Saturday or Sunday is not gonna be a day for work things, then broadly speaking, the work fits into the rest of the time-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:18 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 59:18 ... perfectly well enough. Like, I mean, it, it takes the containers that it has. Work will always fill every container you give it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:23 What's that, what's that law? The, the, um-

Oliver Burkeman 59:25 Parkinson's law, you're prob-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:26 Parkinson's law.

Oliver Burkeman 59:26 Yeah. Right, right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:26 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 59:27 Work will expand to fill the time available for its completion, so the reverse of that, which by the way, is one of the... The reverse of Parkinson's law is part of what the four-hour workweek gave us, right? Work will also, to some extent, at least, contract to fill the space available if you give it less time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:42 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 59:42 So if you have four hours to complete something, you'll, you'll probably do it in about four hours, and if you have eight, it'll take eight. And so maybe just don't give it those four hours at the weekend. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:52 Yeah. I, I do think a lot about the self-imposed Sabbath, but again, this is why I think... Hey, guys. I really hope you're finding this useful. If you are, and you want more content like it, please do check out my book, Make Change That Lasts: Nine Simple Ways to Break Free from the Habits That Are Holding You Back. It's in all the usual places as a paperback, e-book, and as an audiobook, which I'm narrating. Now, back to the video. One of the big problems now is that to do that, you have to swim against the current.Right, because let's say you live in a... I, I guess say let's say you're surrounded by a strong Jewish community-

Oliver Burkeman 1:00:33 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:33 ... and let's say everyone around you observes the Sabbath.

Oliver Burkeman 1:00:37 Much easier to go along with it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:38 Much easier.

Oliver Burkeman 1:00:39 Right. And actually, you know, there are downsides to this, like it's impossible not to in some ways, in some contexts. In very sort of Orthodox and conservative cultures it, it becomes too little freedom. But yeah, I don't think that too little freedom in our temporal rhythms is most people's problem these days, at least outside of the work setting. They may have lots of very rigid rules they have to follow about when they work, but they don't have rigid rules to follow about-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:01 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:01:01 ... resting. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:02 And, and I guess, look, I didn't grow up with that, so maybe I'm, I'm seeing this as this phenomenal thing that-

Oliver Burkeman 1:01:07 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:07 ... you know, maybe people who've grown up with that find, or some people maybe find that restrictive and like the freedom of not having to do that.

Oliver Burkeman 1:01:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:14 But, but this idea of society dictating our behaviors I think is... I think it's really interesting. You know, I, I went to a wedding, like maybe 10 years ago. One of my mates was getting married in France. I think I flew out for the weekend and, you know, hired a car and drove. I can't remember where it was now, but I remember on the Sunday morning driving back to get my flight-

Oliver Burkeman 1:01:35 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:35 ... I kept driving through little villages.

Oliver Burkeman 1:01:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:37 And they were like ghost towns. All the shops were shut.

Oliver Burkeman 1:01:40 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:41 People weren't out and about. And it was very much this kind of French way of life that that was, you know, we're not, we're not shopping on a Sunday. We're just spending time together, you know, doing whatever we do. And even this idea of stopping for meals, that's a very French-

Oliver Burkeman 1:01:54 Right. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:54 ... concept of-

Oliver Burkeman 1:01:55 No, they have certain... they're doing certain things right. Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:57 Yeah. And, and there's, there's, you know, this thing called the French Paradox. Sorry to interrupt. If you are enjoying this content, there's loads more just like it on my channel, so please do take a moment to press Subscribe, hit the notification bell, and now back to the conversation. Why is it that the French can supposedly eat so many rich and delicious and tasty foods, yet not have the consequences associated with them?

Oliver Burkeman 1:02:19 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:19 And there's all kinds of theories in terms of, you know, what the food is that they're consuming, but I think a big part is not only what they're eating, it's how they're eating. It's they're eating when their bodies are in rest and digest mode, not also trying to send emails and in that kind of stress state where you, uh, are just trying to shove that in-

Oliver Burkeman 1:02:38 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:39 ... while I... You know?

Oliver Burkeman 1:02:40 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:40 It, it's... I really think... And that that's still there in France. I, I was interviewed by a French journalist a couple of years ago. At the end of the interview I said, "Hey, can I just ask you?"

Oliver Burkeman 1:02:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:48 "Like, this is my mythical idea of France. Does it still go on? Is this really what's happening, where people stop for lunch-

Oliver Burkeman 1:02:53 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:53 ... and they don't email at the same time as eating?" She goes, "Absolutely. The only place where it's starting to go is like in Paris at international companies."

Oliver Burkeman 1:03:02 Financial institutions and things. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:04 That's where that culture-

Oliver Burkeman 1:03:05 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:05 ... starts to go. But apart from that, this is kind of... Do you know what I mean?

Oliver Burkeman 1:03:08 Yeah, no, and it's reminding me, I, I mentioned it briefly in the book, of this experience in Sweden, of the, of the coffee breaks that they have in Swedish workplaces-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:14 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:03:14 ... called the fika, where, where at basically the same time every day, if you work for a company that has maybe 200 people in it, say 300 people, they will basically all stop at the same time and go to some communal part of the building and have tea and coffee and, uh, pastries, you know, at the same time in the afternoon. And you don't have to do it. Like, it... I'm sure that in plenty of sort of businesses in Stockholm people have meetings when they have meetings. But it was really striking that, that this rhythm was broadly followed by everybody, and it becomes this kind of way for companies to, for sort of chief executives to get to talk to everyone or in the organization, because the sort of hierarchies are suspended. It becomes this kind of rhythmic part of the day where everyone knows that it's an okay time to stop because there's no, you know... You're, you're the weird one if you do keep grinding through instead of stopping. Um, and it, it's just another example of one of these things where the, where there's a tradition that is holding people in place in a way that is actually freeing in the end, right? That they submit to this-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:18 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:04:18 ... limitation on their autonomy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:20 I, I really enjoyed that chapter of the book. And when you spoke about fika, there was also, you were talking about these ideas that actually part of the reason we enjoy weekends is because most people are also off at weekends.

Oliver Burkeman 1:04:36 Right. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:37 Right. And I thought that was a really interesting concept. Again, coming down to this individualistic culture where we can do whatever we want. If I wanna take a Tuesday off, I'm gonna take a Tuesday off. Do you know-

Oliver Burkeman 1:04:45 There's this, there's this research, this fascinating research, that shows that people in long-term unemployment are much happier at weekends than in the weekday as well. Right? They don't... They're, you know, they are, in the context of these studies, they have the same amount of time. They have too much time. They don't want to be unemployed, but the fact that the weekends is when everybody's off and there isn't that sort of sense of pressure that you should be doing something else, but there is also the possibility to spend time with the people you care about the most, you know, that transforms their experience. They have the same amount of time every day because they don't work, but actually, um... And I think retirees this applies to as well in certain contexts. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:22 Yeah. I ca- I can, I can imagine that.

Oliver Burkeman 1:05:23 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:24 I guess, you know, in, in the UK where we have bank holidays, obviously, uh, slightly extended weekends, but maybe they're so valuable these days because almost the, the traditional weekend has been eaten up into and eroded, so it actually semi doesn't exist half the time-

Oliver Burkeman 1:05:42 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:42 ... with people.

Oliver Burkeman 1:05:43 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:43 But maybe a bank holiday weekend where there's three days in a row. So maybe the first day you just spent kind of still just catching up on the emails-

Oliver Burkeman 1:05:49 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:49 ... that you thought you couldn't finish.

Oliver Burkeman 1:05:50 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:50 And then, then by the time you actually get into the second or third day-

Oliver Burkeman 1:05:54 You're actually beginning to rest. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:56 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 1:05:56 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:56 Yeah. But this idea that you then, you go around or into your local town or village or whatever-

Oliver Burkeman 1:06:00 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:01 ... and everyone also has the same kind of mood, so you're not, like, out of step-

Oliver Burkeman 1:06:06 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:06 ... with what's going on around you. Which, again, is I think one of these other problems about life these days, is that we, we often are... We're not quite in tune with what's going on around us-

Oliver Burkeman 1:06:16 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:16 ... because there are no set rules anymore. You know, I, I love this, the research on that people who follow religious practices are happier.

Oliver Burkeman 1:06:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:26 Not necessarily people who are religious.

Oliver Burkeman 1:06:28 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:28 People who follow religious practices.

Oliver Burkeman 1:06:29 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:29 Because, you know, community, getting together, be kind to other people. I, I don't know, there's somethingThere's something that we've really lost, haven't we, as we've become more and more secular, as we've become more and more apparently the masters of our destiny and in control of whatever we want.

Oliver Burkeman 1:06:46 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:46 We, we've lost something very important.

Oliver Burkeman 1:06:48 No, I think that's really true. There's that saying that, you know, tradition knows more than you do or knows better than you do, right? I mean, these are acknowledging all the downsides-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:56 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:06:56 ... and all the ways-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:57 For sure

Oliver Burkeman 1:06:57 ... in which, like, very important freedoms exist that, that didn't exist, especially for, you know, different demographics of people and all the rest of it. There is such a thing as a, a tradition or a practice standing the test of time, and having sort of embodied in it the fact that it's been a sort of live experiment for centuries about what, what people need in their lives. And it's extremely tempting for us, especially today for various reasons, to assume that we must know better than that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:25 Mm.

Oliver Burkeman 1:07:25 And, you know, especially in these contexts where it does require some surrender of, of personal autonomy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:32 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 1:07:32 It does require sort of a bit of discomfort or like, oh, you know, do I actually have to, like, do this meditation practice today even on the days that I don't wanna do it, or go to church on the days even when I don't wanna do it? And it's like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:42 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:07:42 ... well, yes, on some level that's the point.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:44 Yeah. I mean, community is one of the big secrets to Parkrun success.

Oliver Burkeman 1:07:49 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:50 You know? And, and as a family who very much engage with Parkrun-

Oliver Burkeman 1:07:54 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:54 ... and it helps provide the framework to our weekend, really. You know?

Oliver Burkeman 1:07:58 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:58 Saturday mornings means, rain or shine, my son and I will be going down to the local park.

Oliver Burkeman 1:08:04 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:05 And if that was left to us, as it was in the lockdowns-

Oliver Burkeman 1:08:08 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:08 ... when Parkrun didn't exist, it was left to us, and you know what? We never went running.

Oliver Burkeman 1:08:11 Right, [laughs] right. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:13 It was, it was a-

Oliver Burkeman 1:08:13 I'm not surprised. Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:14 ... it was a struggle. Like, I would try and sometimes persuade him, or maybe it was myself I needed persuading, but it didn't happen.

Oliver Burkeman 1:08:21 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:22 But we haven't missed one in months.

Oliver Burkeman 1:08:25 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:26 Because there's almost that constraint there. We know it's, it's not a negotiable in our heads.

Oliver Burkeman 1:08:30 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:30 Like, if you have to decide every, oh, shall I do this? Shall I do this? Oh, no. Saturday mornings are Parkrun mornings.

Oliver Burkeman 1:08:35 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:35 We, we will be there at this time, and we know barring some sort of injury or mishap we will have both completed 5K in some form.

Oliver Burkeman 1:08:43 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:44 And I think that's why Parkrun in, in secular societies, I f- I feel that's one of the big strengths of Parkrun is it's giving us a sense of community.

Oliver Burkeman 1:08:55 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:55 And, you know, you get to know the people, and I mean, my son loves it. People say hi to him. They go, "Oh, nice run last week." See how good he feels.

Oliver Burkeman 1:09:02 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:04 This is what we're missing, the sense of belonging, the sense of community, and, you know, your book i- it's got so many wonderful ideas on time and our relationship to time and how we perceive time. But ultimately if it's all down to us-

Oliver Burkeman 1:09:19 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:20 ... it's gonna be pretty tricky, isn't it? Because you need help from the, from the world around you.

Oliver Burkeman 1:09:24 Absolutely, and I think the Parkrun is such a great example because it, in a way, it does something very cunning, right, which is it, y- you're sort of, um, taking a very individualistic desire that people have, which is fit- which is fitness, which often gets very heavily individualized in the way-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:39 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:09:39 ... people think about it. And then there's like a bait and switch 'cause actually, as you say, such a great benefit is, is the fact that it's, that it's communal. Um, uh, I think meditation sometimes people have this experience too. They sort of get into meditation because they want to focus better and do better in their work or be more self-disciplined or so- at something. And then they realize that they've suddenly, like, started going on retreats and really enjoy the sense of communality that comes from those things. There's a sort of interesting dynamic goes on there when people come to something for individualistic reasons and then actually benefit for communal ones.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:13 Yeah. And I guess that's okay, right? Because peop-

Oliver Burkeman 1:10:16 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:16 ... we, we're all on a journey, and we're all kind of approaching these things at, at different times. You mention your Guardian column, which is, you know, it was very well read all over the world. Your last column has proven to be quite, uh, iconic.

Oliver Burkeman 1:10:29 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:29 Uh, it's... I, I don't know how many times I've seen it being shared. It's, it's, it's really, really good. And I wonder actually when you started writing this book because actually some of the ideas in it... When is it from? Two years ago was it? Three? It's-

Oliver Burkeman 1:10:40 Uh, yeah. The, the book was well advanced by the time I wrote that last column, but it was-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:43 Yeah, 'cause there's some very similar-

Oliver Burkeman 1:10:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. My mind was in the same place.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:46 Yeah, for sure. What was it called again, the final column?

Oliver Burkeman 1:10:49 They called it, uh, Eight Secrets to a Fairly Fulfilled Life, which was... I don't deserve the credit for that. That was a, a great Guardian production person coming up with that idea, but yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:56 So I like that, a fairly fulfilled life.

Oliver Burkeman 1:10:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:59 Do, do you have a fairly fulfilled life now?

Oliver Burkeman 1:11:01 I think so. Yeah. I think it's a great standard to aim for. Um, but then again, it's sort of a constant work in progress. I mean, I sometimes think there's a risk, the stuff that I write and talk about, that, uh, people ask whether I'm sort of calmer and less stressed about things now, and I think, like, I am, but it should be my wife who you're interviewing for that, for that question really because I don't wanna claim that I'm, you know, effortlessly easy to live with or something. I do think that, I mean, a big part of it, I mean, yes, I am. I've, in lots of ways I'm just a calmer and more fulfilled person than I used to be. But, but a big part of it also is this thing about how f- how quickly you can get back on the wagon.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:41 Mm.

Oliver Burkeman 1:11:41 So it's not, it's not... I think with this kind of ideas about time that I've, that I've spent a lot of time exploring, they don't make you into someone who never gets stressed about work-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:50 No

Oliver Burkeman 1:11:50 ... or never procrastinates, but or something like that. But you, you see, oh, I'm doing that thing again.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 1:11:56 And you know why you're doing it, and you're sort of forgiving of yourself because the reason why you're doing it is a totally human, like, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:03 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:12:03 ... desire to have more control than, than we can have. And then you can just be like, "Okay. All right. Not gonna do that anymore for today. I'm gonna go back to the better way of being." And, you know, it's back and forth, back and forth, two steps forward, one step back-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:16 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:12:16 ... or whatever, but that's fine, I think.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:18 That awareness, I think, is a massively important step for all of us. You know, just 'cause we might know something or write about something doesn't mean we can always apply it.

Oliver Burkeman 1:12:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:28 But I think it does give us an awareness sometimes. I think your book will, will give people a huge awareness of why they make certain decisions, why certain thingsEnd up frustrating them. Like, it doesn't mean that you can necessarily change it all straight away, but just being aware, you're like, "Oh, oh, I get it. Oh, I'm doing that thing."

Oliver Burkeman 1:12:46 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:46 Even this kind of, this, this whole idea of work-life balance.

Oliver Burkeman 1:12:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:50 Right? A lot of people are-

Oliver Burkeman 1:12:52 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:53 Um, I know there will be people listening and watching right now at this minute who are struggling and think at some point I'm going to... Yeah, at this point, work-life balance is gonna be nailed.

Oliver Burkeman 1:13:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:05 But that's a myth, isn't it?

Oliver Burkeman 1:13:06 I think it is. I think that what work-life balance, it sounds so lovely, but what it tends to end up meaning in people's lives is that they feel the pressure to sort of be 100% perfect at work and 100% perfect in life outside work, and that starts to become impossible because, like, 100% plus 100% is, is 200%. And, and so I think that, you know, that kind of... It- it's an especially, um, v- vicious kind of pressure because it comes wrapped in this notion of like work-life balance is just a lovely thing, and actually struggling to achieve it is a, is an awful thing to do because i- i- it is basically impossible, I think. And, and-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:45 I think so

Oliver Burkeman 1:13:46 ... and people are holding themselves under the guise of seeking more calm and balance in their lives. They're, they're actually holding themselves to quite a cruel standard, um, that they could maybe just ease up on a bit. And what would that look like? Well, it might, for example, look like a kind of a seasonal approach to-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:02 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:14:02 ... imbalance. It might look like saying, if you're a young adult early in your career, there's something to be said for, you know, going all in on your career for a while. If you are the parents of young children, you may have to do a certain amount of work, of course, but, like, also go easy on yourself, and if you can find a way to sort of do the minimum required for a while, don't feel bad about that, um, because you've got this very important thing going on in-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:30 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:14:30 ... in wo- in life outside work. I mean, it- it's always this thing about not, not making the difficulties of being human worse by adding in this standard that you hold yourself to that actually nobody could ever reach.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:44 It, it, I think it is liberating. I know sometimes when I put out podcasts on a particular topic, you know, a lot of the time it's health and wellbeing. I absolutely think your book is a health and wellbeing book as well. Interesting. I'll get to that in just a moment. But a lot of young parents, it's like, like yeah, d- you know, they, they contact me, say, "I can't do that. It's just could be too hard-"

Oliver Burkeman 1:15:07 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:07 ... you know, at the moment." It's like, yeah, that's okay.

Oliver Burkeman 1:15:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:09 It's almost like embracing that, yeah, this is a time in your life where actually maybe you are gonna be knackered and underslept-

Oliver Burkeman 1:15:16 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:16 ... and you can't move your body as much as you might want to, or you might hear someone talk about on the podcast.

Oliver Burkeman 1:15:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:21 It's like, actually, that's okay.

Oliver Burkeman 1:15:23 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:23 You know, you know, uh, take that information and just park it and go, "Yeah, at the moment, that ain't gonna fit for me."

Oliver Burkeman 1:15:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:29 "But in a few months, actually, when my child's a bit older, I have a bit of help or whatever, that may change again." And so I love that whole seasonal approach to it. Um, I, I think that's, that's very freeing.

Oliver Burkeman 1:15:43 No, I, I, I think it is, and I hope it is, and I think that it's important to say about how to sort of receive the advice in a book like this, but also all the s- advice in all the contexts that you talk to people about and, and your own advice that you give people, right? I think what really matters is often more the spirit in which it's offered than-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:04 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:16:04 ... whether this specific technique needs to be integrated into your life tomorrow. And so, yeah, absolutely, there may be somebody with a certain approach to physical fitness who's got absolutely the right approach, but this specific set of workouts is not gonna be something you're gonna have time for right now. And so I hope that what I'm really zeroing in on in this book is this specific spirit that says like, okay, see what's real in terms of the amount of time you have, and then in terms of the limitations of control that you have over that time. Like, come back down to earth in terms of what you can reasonably ask your- of yourself. And then from that, like, firm foundation, absolutely be like incredibly ambitious for your work or incredibly ambitious for your family or whatever it is you want to do.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:49 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 1:16:49 Or don't be if that's not your style. But just do it from this position of like being in touch with, with reality and, and not endlessly berating yourself and beating yourself up for not being able to sort of evade the terms and conditions of being human.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:05 In an interview I heard you on recently, you made the case that in your mind, a lot of the happiest people and contented people on the planet are probably the people that we've never heard of.

Oliver Burkeman 1:17:20 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:21 Which I thought was really, really interesting, and I, I, I'm, I absolutely agree with you.

Oliver Burkeman 1:17:26 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:27 I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit.

Oliver Burkeman 1:17:28 Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a slightly facetious point, but I think it is basically true. I mean, let's look at the extreme here. We don't think about Hollywood, where people are the most famous on the planet, as a place of wonderfully relaxed psychological full health, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:44 [laughs]

Oliver Burkeman 1:17:44 We tend to think that there's, there's, there's usually... I think that there is probably something, some deep hole you are filling inside if you are sufficiently motivated to struggle for that kind of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:56 Mm

Oliver Burkeman 1:17:56 ... global fame. Now, sometimes it can have positive effects. You know, I think if you look at great presidents and leaders in, in, in history, they too often turn out to have been like struggling with very deep psychological issues or, um, issues in their childhood environment. And so it's not that it always, like, goes wrong, but I do think that that need for that level of fame-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:21 Mm

Oliver Burkeman 1:18:21 ... that sort of global, global thing is, is very often motivated by some, some restless unease. And my theory, based on no research at all, is just that, like, lower down that, um, that, that grade to people, to anyone who has any kind of public profile. I think on some level, pursuing a public profile i- is a sign-I don't mean to insult you here. You know, I have a little one too. It's like that you need some kind of... So it's, I'm talking about my own weird issues as well, but like there's, th- that you need something that someone who is complete- living completely in security-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:56 Doesn't need it

Oliver Burkeman 1:18:57 ... doesn't need.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:57 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 1:18:57 Because they're actually at peace with that situation. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:00 I, I completely agree with you.

Oliver Burkeman 1:19:01 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:01 I think many people feel, and I, I include myself in this absolutely, and I've been very open in, in my latest book about some of the struggles I've had in my life and that need for external validation.

Oliver Burkeman 1:19:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:12 And I think you're right. There's a lot of people who have huge amounts of fame and profile who are deeply, deeply unhappy. We see this time and time again. I think the, the problem then comes, those are the people we look up to for their advice.

Oliver Burkeman 1:19:25 Right. [laughs] Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:25 So that person who, you know, I don't know-

Oliver Burkeman 1:19:28 Y- yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:28 ... founded the company that, that, that-

Oliver Burkeman 1:19:31 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:31 ... I don't even know the term, the stockmark- you know, that sold publicly or whatever-

Oliver Burkeman 1:19:34 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:34 ... for like 10 million. We want their productivity tips. You think-

Oliver Burkeman 1:19:37 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:38 ... yeah, but maybe the cost of that level of success was a broken marriage and never seeing their children-

Oliver Burkeman 1:19:44 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:44 ... or whatever. So we then apply the tips-

Oliver Burkeman 1:19:47 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:47 ... in our own life to get something that we don't actually want.

Oliver Burkeman 1:19:50 I think that's, that's such a good point, and I think, yeah. And the other place where this sort of rears its head greatly is on social media, right? Because there you have this situation where everyone who does at all well on social media has a certain public profile, right? Like, it, it's a-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:04 Well, everyone's got a profile now.

Oliver Burkeman 1:20:05 Right. Exactly, right. It maybe it's a few hundred followers, maybe it's millions of followers, but like this, the saying, you know, that on the internet, everyone is famous for 15 people. And it's like if you make a big song and dance on social media and you need validation in that way, you will have a few thou- hundred, a few thousand followers. You might go higher and like, yeah, s- somebody with zero followers is, is either a bot [laughs] or, um, or, or maybe it's just fine not have any followers, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:31 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 1:20:31 Maybe he's actually, um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:32 Exactly

Oliver Burkeman 1:20:33 ... not seeking that kind of external validation. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:36 Yeah. Um, in terms of people needing to make decisions or, or wanting help and advice from Oliver Burkeman, who wrote this column for week after week, giving advice to people. Um, in your final article, point number two was, "When stumped by a life choice, choose enlargement over happiness," which I really, really liked. I thought that was a really nice way. Um, could you expand on what you meant by that? What did, what does choose enlargement mean?

Oliver Burkeman 1:21:06 Yeah. This comes from a Jungian psychologist, James Hollis, who-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:10 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:21:10 ... whose work I really, really admire, and I've had the amazing luck to then get to, get to meet and talk to. And he says, yeah, if you're facing a big choice, but I think you can use it in day-to-day context as well, right? Instead of thinking or asking what is this gonna make me happy, what should I do that would make me happiest? Yeah. Ask what would enlarge you and what would diminish you. So what does this mean? I think, for me anyway, what it means is what we really want deep, deep down is, is growth. It isn't actually necessarily hedonism. Firstly, we're terrible at predicting what's gonna make us happy, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:44 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 1:21:44 That's just a very, like the oldest finding in social psychology is we think we want this, and then we get it, and-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:49 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:21:49 ... it just doesn't give us what we wanted. But also that, also this question brings into focus the idea of whether happiness is quite the right word for what we should be shooting for anyway in life, because there are lots of contexts that, where we're not actually like having a happy time in that moment, but where looking back, we know that that was a really meaningful thing to do. And I think this question about enlargement, you, it, it really works to sort of connect you to your intuitions on that matter. So to give examples, right? In relationships, in jobs, there are all sorts of difficulties that you encounter, all sorts of times that do not feel pleasurable-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:27 Mm

Oliver Burkeman 1:22:27 ... and happy and fun, but some of them might be a sign that you're in a toxic relationship or a terrible job. Others are just kinda like part of getting better at living with a whole other adult or doing a challenging job-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:41 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:22:41 ... um, to achieve something worthwhile. And that enlargement question can really help you filter between those, those two. Because when you think about some difficulty you're undergoing in one of those domains, like you know if it's the kind of difficulty that is ultimately helping you grow as a person. It's not fun, but it's like, yeah, I'm, this is challenging me in good ways that I need to be challenged. And then I think you also know if it's just the kind that's making your soul shrivel inside, in which case, sure, do what you can to get out of that-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:11 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:23:11 ... situation. And that's really important because otherwise you're just gonna think to yourself, "Well, this is unpleasant, therefore it must be wrong for me." [laughs] And I've had, you know, I've given this example before, but I, but the one that, it's just so vivid to me that I, that I come back to it. I lived and worked in the US for a very long time. My wife's American. And there was a time very early in my time there when I had this sort of moment when I could have like returned back to the UK or stayed out there. And for me, it was very clear when I sort of pondered it in this way, that the enlarging choice was to remain out in the US and to not sort of walk away from all the, the life that I was beginning to get embedded in there. But you could easily imagine somebody else who was living in another country where it was like, "Okay, now it's time to go home and face the music." Like, now it's like the enlarging choice here is to stop sort of messing around as an expat in another country and go and like, go and do the thing you said you wanted to do. Maybe this is not a very good example for other people, I don't know. But like, it, it, it always speaks to me because it was clear to me then that like it would've been the comfortable option to, to, to leave-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:16 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:24:16 ... at that point, but not the enlarging option. And I think that's often, that is often staying with the situation, not always, but often staying with the situation is like the sort of more important challenge than leaving it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:31 And, and I guess that's very individual to whoever's making that decision, isn't it? It's like, it's impossible to say to someone else that's an enlarging choice, that is not an enlarging choice.

Oliver Burkeman 1:24:40 Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:41 I can't possibly know what that is for someone else.But when they ask themselves that question, I th- I think they often have that instinct.

Oliver Burkeman 1:24:49 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:49 If we allow ourselves to be-

Oliver Burkeman 1:24:50 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:50 ... quiet enough to actually tap into our instinct, which I, I think is a, another big problem these days.

Oliver Burkeman 1:24:55 And it can work in the opposite way, right, than the one, than the example I gave. So, you know, someone might have the idea that their job is to tough out, like, an abusive relationship or, or-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:04 Mm

Oliver Burkeman 1:25:04 ... or an exploitative work situation. That they're, they might have been raised with the idea that their job is just to, like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:09 Mm

Oliver Burkeman 1:25:10 ... stick with it, come what may. And when they ask this question, they might be like, "No, this is, this is having the opposite effect-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:16 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:25:16 ... of growth on me." And that, and that can then be an opportunity to, you know, if, if your personality is someone, is of someone who does stay, if you're not a sort of commitment-phobic person, but a sort of people-pleasing person in that way, that might be the, the spur to actually-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:31 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:25:31 ... make a big change to your, to your life. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:34 Yeah. In that final column, I also liked, I think, point five, "The future will never provide the reassurance you seek from it."

Oliver Burkeman 1:25:41 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:42 What's that about?

Oliver Burkeman 1:25:43 This feels very personal to me. I feel like one of my, sort of, big, weird psychological [laughs] issues going back, but, like, that anyone who's a bit of a chronic worrier or a compulsive planner, and I, I historically would sort of count myself in those categories for sure, is basically trying to feel like they know that everything's gonna be fine in some area-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:06 [laughs]

Oliver Burkeman 1:26:06 ... uh, uh, and to do with the future. And because you can't actually ever know, because we are, as someone else put it, you know, we're vulnerable to events. In every moment anything could happen. This is a horrible thought when you think about truly horrible things happening to people-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:22 Mm

Oliver Burkeman 1:26:22 ... you truly love, right? But it is true. At every moment, in any moment, anything could happen, and I think we're always trying to sort of defend against that psychologically. And one way we do that, or one way a certain kind of person does that, is by, like, worrying and fretting and planning and trying to make sure that everything's g- that everything's lined up well, and that it's all planned out properly, and that you've left enough time to do this, and that someone else has reassured you there're gonna be some... You'll never get that certainty, and the reason you'll never get it is because the future hasn't happened yet, and because you don't know what's gonna happen in the future. And so if you're constantly sort of, your reach is always exceeding your grasp, right? 'Cause you're constantly trying to reach into the future from the present-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:02 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:27:02 ... to be like, "Okay, can I, can I, can you just reassure me that this is gonna be fine?" [laughs] And like, actually no, you can't ever be reassured. You can, you can definitely, like, take actions that make better outcomes likelier than others.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:13 Mm.

Oliver Burkeman 1:27:13 Right? So definitely, like, you know, pursue good health and good diet and exercise. It's gonna make a massive difference to the level of probability that you can assign-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:25 Mm

Oliver Burkeman 1:27:25 ... to your having, to your being healthy at a later date, but you can't know. And that sort of desire to know, I think, fuels a lot of anxiety that we don't actually need to feel. It is possible, not easy, I don't do it flawlessly [laughs] but it is possible to sort of surrender to the fact that you're on this sort of white water rapids ride through time, that you don't get to control what's coming next. And you can adopt this attitude, on my good days anyway, of, like, curiosity about what's coming next.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:57 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 1:27:57 It's like, "Oh, I, I wonder if my plans for today will bear any resemblance to how the day goes," not, "I need my plans for today to bear a close resemblance to how the day goes."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:05 Yeah. Ju- just shifting the perspective to curiosity-

Oliver Burkeman 1:28:08 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:08 ... makes all the difference.

Oliver Burkeman 1:28:09 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:09 Because then it's not about whether you're right or wrong, it's about, oh, what a, what a great opportunity to learn something-

Oliver Burkeman 1:28:14 Yeah. Right, right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:15 ... and just find out what happens.

Oliver Burkeman 1:28:16 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:16 And, you know, why I think your book is also, as well as a, I think will go down as a very important philosophical text actually, um, I think some really quite profound ideas in there. I think it's also got health implications because a lot of what we see as doctors these days is related to our collective modern lifestyles. But it's not just about things like food choices or are we moving our bodies, it's actually a lot of this kind of stress and worry over trying to control time that's uncontrollable.

Oliver Burkeman 1:28:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:53 Right? So you always, you're trying to meet this bar that you can never meet, that you'll have work-life balance, you'll have mastery over your email inbox. And actually, the frustration when you don't have it, A, it leads to a lot of poor lifestyle choices because that sense of frustration, that discomfort needs to be soothed in some way-

Oliver Burkeman 1:29:11 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:11 ... whether it be with a tub of ice cream or, or biscuits or booze. Or you just can't sleep because you're chronically stressed and thinking and worrying about the future or fretting over the past. So actually really understanding our relationship to time, learning, as you say, to surrender and knowing that you can't control it, I, I actually think is very, very important for each and every single one of us these days. It's not just something that's philosophical, it's actually the fabric of our daily lives, and when we get it wrong, it, it impacts every moment-

Oliver Burkeman 1:29:46 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:46 ... in our life.

Oliver Burkeman 1:29:47 Yeah. No, that's a really, that's a really interesting point, the ways in which we try to sort of not feel this discomfort, to dull the pain of those things. Yeah, absolutely. Specifically the point you just made about how they, they have impact on us physically because of the sort of narcotic [laughs] ways that we choose-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:06 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:30:06 ... to sort of n- absolutely. It's, uh, it's, it's huge. Yeah. No, totally.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:11 I want to finish off by talking about keeping options open. I think, a- and I, and I guess I'm passionate about this 'cause I feel for much of my life I've, not wanting to commit-

Oliver Burkeman 1:30:22 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:23 ... to certain things. Like, ah, I just wanna keep my options open. What if I wanna do something else that day? What... I don't wanna... Like, I'm not, I'm not very good at committing to stuff in the future.

Oliver Burkeman 1:30:32 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:32 In fact, if someone invites me or, or there's an opportunity two or three months in advance, I don't like it because I, I'm like, well, I, I, I may-

Oliver Burkeman 1:30:42 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:42 ... I may be busy and I may wanna do something else that week.

Oliver Burkeman 1:30:44 Yes, yes. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:44 Do you know what I mean?

Oliver Burkeman 1:30:45 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:45 And that-

Oliver Burkeman 1:30:45 Oh, join the club. Yeah. No, I, I know this very well personally, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:47 So, so this is, I guess I'm, I'm, I'm looking for some wisdom from you-

Oliver Burkeman 1:30:50 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:50 ... I think, on the problems with keeping options open.

Oliver Burkeman 1:30:53 Well, it's only wisdom, if it is wisdom at all, that comes from having been in exactly the same, uh, situation, uh, uh, wanting toDo that. I think that basically what happens when we insist on keeping our options open or refusing, refuse to commit to things is, is again, it's a, it's a form of feeling in more control than we really have. So like procrastination, if you don't launch into a project, in reality you still get to feel in control of it. If you don't commit to relationships or to projects or to a career or to a place where you live or something, it feels like you're holding all the potential inside yourself.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:27 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 1:31:27 And at some later point you can, fine, when you feel like it, you will make that commitment, but not now. That again, is, is something that is actually false simply because of the fact that we are finite and that time just keeps elapsing whether we like it or not. So the example I give in the book, right? Or one of the examples, if you decline to get into a long-term relationship and instead you want to spend like 10 years dating people and playing the field, right? You might tell yourself as a commitment phobe that you are keeping your options open, but in fact you've just made a different kind of choice about how to commit to that time, right? You, the upshot, the upside, there's an upside, which is that you don't have to encounter the sort of difficulties or limitations of a long-term relationship. And there's a downside, which is you don't get to enjoy all the benefits of a committed long-term relationship. And that might be the right decision for someone to take, but that time is still gone, and you've decided to use those years-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:25 Mm-hmm

Oliver Burkeman 1:32:25 ... that we will never get again in one way rather than another way. And it might be the right way for someone. I'm not saying like everyone has to get married at 18 or something, but what we tend to tell ourselves is that it isn't really committing to something. We're, we're telling ourselves that we're sort of holding back from, from, we're, we're maintaining our position of power. But the sands of time are running out whether we like it or not. So you're just using up those years of your life in a different way. And the idea I'm trying to get at there is that like you're always committing to things. It's just that you're sometimes committing unconsciously.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:01 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 1:33:01 So then it's not then, some people might say then, well, then it's then not a commitment. But you are still sort of trade-offs are-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:07 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:33:07 ... are present, whatever you're doing. And so, you know, if you decide to keep your options open about a, a career path by not sort of giving yourself fully to one thing, um, again, that might be right for some people that they want to sort of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:24 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:33:24 ... ha- keep, have a finger in multiple pies during their life. But like don't pretend that you're not deciding to use up a bit of your life in that way. That you're somehow sort of, you know, real life hasn't begun yet.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:35 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 1:33:35 And you're holding all the cards. No, real life has begun, and you've decided to do that with it. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:39 I guess before you know it, you never end up making a decision. You can, you can always endlessly keep your options open, but-

Oliver Burkeman 1:33:45 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:46 ... what, you just got a lot of options.

Oliver Burkeman 1:33:47 There's... Right. Right. As they say.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:48 [laughs] You-

Oliver Burkeman 1:33:48 Yes, exactly. You end up with nothing. And, and I think that's true, right? The, so the problem is not that I'm against people having portfolio careers or something, but that if what you want in life, and you think you do want, is a family or to be very, very accomplished in one career, there's a terrible danger in telling yourself you don't need to get involved in it just yet because you're gonna sort of keep all your options open, and then that goes on and on and on and on and on.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:14 Mm-hmm.

Oliver Burkeman 1:34:14 And actually it turns out that you weren't keeping your options open really. You were just sort of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:20 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:34:20 ... you were using up your time in a way that was not in tune with the thing you wanted to do.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:24 I, I think one of the, the downsides of trying to keep options open all the time, certainly something I've felt in the past, is I cause myself such mental anguish and, "Ah, yeah, maybe I could. I know, but if I did that, then I, I... If I wanna do this or that weekend, I can't do that, so I won't commit." And then I wouldn't even make a decision.

Oliver Burkeman 1:34:40 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:41 I just keep trying to delay that decision. But you don't measure the fact that you're using up a considerable amount of mental energy and cognitive reserve day after day. You haven't made a decision. You're trying to postpone the decision till you have all the information-

Oliver Burkeman 1:34:55 Yeah. Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:55 ... at your fingertips so you can make the perfect decision. I guess it's a bit like a lot of people like to book their holiday early. They know in six months' time at that week we're going on holiday. The, the flights are booked. Everything's booked. And I used to think, "Man, that's, you've committed early, you know? What, what if, what if there's a better option?"

Oliver Burkeman 1:35:12 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:12 I think actually you guys have got it right because actually-

Oliver Burkeman 1:35:14 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:15 ... you made the decision. There's no more cognitive manage- You know what's happening.

Oliver Burkeman 1:35:18 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:18 Everyone around you knows what's happening.

Oliver Burkeman 1:35:20 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:20 And th- there is a kind of freedom to that, isn't there?

Oliver Burkeman 1:35:22 No, totally. And I, like I say in the book, there's this weird phenomenon where very often people who take decisions that they were sort of dreading feel absolutely sort of fine having make it, made them because, like, it's done. It's over.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:38 Yes.

Oliver Burkeman 1:35:38 All you can do is deal with the consequences of that choice. So buying a house, getting married, leaving a job, all sorts of things, they less frequently turn out to be stressful, uh, in the way that you were predicting because actually the stress was the not deciding one way-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:52 Yeah

Oliver Burkeman 1:35:53 ... or another. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:54 And again, coming back to time, like we don't measure that. We don't account for that, I don't think.

Oliver Burkeman 1:35:59 Right. Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:00 We just think, "Oh, if we end up making that right decision, it was worth it." But, well, how many evenings did you waste not being present to your life because you were thinking about this?

Oliver Burkeman 1:36:08 Right. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:09 You know?

Oliver Burkeman 1:36:09 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:09 And again, I, I... There's certainly something I've been guilty of in the past. There's just so much I could keep talking to you about, Oliver. Uh, and given that there's no watch in the studio, I don't know the time.

Oliver Burkeman 1:36:19 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:19 Uh, which is the way I like it, which is why these conversations often end up being quite long. The podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. When we feel better, we get more out of our lives. At the end of this conversation, at the end of this podcast, what I often try and do is leave the audience with some actionable things to think about in their life.

Oliver Burkeman 1:36:38 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:38 Many people these days are struggling. They feel a chronic state of overwhelm.

Oliver Burkeman 1:36:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:42 They feel that they don't have enough time to get all the things done that they think they need to-

Oliver Burkeman 1:36:47 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:47 ... get done. And I wonder, with all your kind of years of, of writing a- and just wisdom from, you know, being immersed in this topic, do you have any kind of final thoughts or words to share with people?

Oliver Burkeman 1:37:02 I mean, I think one, one way to think about this is just to sort of ask yourself w- how you might do today differently if you really knew and believed that you definitely weren't going to get all the things done that you were hoping to get done in the day. And might you, in that situation, make at least a little bit of time now, today, for something that you know you really care about rather than telling yourself that that's coming down the pipe, that you're gonna get all this other stuff out of the way first and then you're gonna have time for that? I've said in the past a, as a bit of a joke, but I think I mean it, that the only sort of time management technique worth its salt is, like, step one, choose something that you know matters to you. Step two, figure out when today or this week you're gonna give it at least, like, 20 minutes of your time. And then there is no step three because, like, yes, some other things are not gonna get done, and that was always the case, and only this time you will have spent some time nurturing that relationship that matters to you or starting to write that screenplay you've been thinking about for a decade or, or m- million other things.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:15 Yeah.

Oliver Burkeman 1:38:16 But, like, I think people know more than they always necessarily realize they know what, what matters to them, and it really ultimately is just a matter of making a little bit of time for those things here and now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:31 [upbeat music] If you enjoyed that conversation about how to get the most out of your life, I think you are really going to enjoy this one about the main reasons that people feel lost and what you can do about it.

Speaker 1:38:41 Much of physical pathology can be traced to childhood experiences and how we cope with those experiences and what those experiences did-