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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

“You’ll Waste Your Whole Life If You Don’t Hear This” – Time Expert Oliver Burkeman Warns

This episode is brought to you by: VIVOBAREFOOT: Get 20% off your first order https://links.drchatterjee.com/3Kcl9a6 BETTER HELP: Get 10% off your first month https://betterhelp.com/livemore WHOOP: Get WHOOP 5.0 and your first month free https://join.whoop.com/livemore Download my FREE Habit Change Guide HERE: https://links.drchatterjee.com/4pxlq7I Many of us feel under constant pressure to optimise every moment, to become more efficient, more productive and somehow more worthy. But what if embracing our limits could be the key to living a calmer, more meaningful life? This week’s returning guest on my Feel Better, Live More podcast, Oliver Burkeman, believes that accepting that we can’t do everything might just set us free. Oliver is the author of the Sunday Times bestselling ‘Four Thousand Weeks’ and ‘The Antidote’, and for many years wrote a popular weekly column on psychology for the Guardian. His work has also appeared in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Psychologies and New Philosopher. His latest book, ‘Meditations for Mortals: A Four Week Guide to Doing What Counts’, takes us on a liberating journey towards a more meaningful life – one that begins not with fantasies of the ideal existence, but with the reality in which we actually find ourselves. Designed as a four-week ‘retreat of the mind’, it offers daily wisdom, solace and inspiration to aid a saner, freer and more enchantment-filled way of living. In our brilliant conversation, we discuss: ● Why the belief that life will finally feel easier once we clear our to-do list is such a persistent illusion ● How shifting our focus from endless achievement to small, present moments can transform the way we experience each day ● Why the fantasy of perfect decisions keeps us stuck in indecision, and how accepting the downsides of any choice can set us free ● How our fear of wasting time is often rooted in perfectionism, and why many of us feel we have to earn our worth through effort ● The liberating idea of daily-ish habits – a flexible, compassionate way to keep showing up without turning routines into self-criticism ● Why we don’t need to wait for life to feel calm or under control before we start living with more intention ● How embracing our limits and accepting that time is finite can help us feel more fully alive and connected I was delighted to have the opportunity to speak to Oliver again as he brings such clarity and compassion to questions so many of us grapple with. Instead of offering yet another system for getting more done, this conversation is about stepping back, loosening our grip and recognising that a good life isn’t measured by productivity but by presence, meaning and connection. #feelbetterlivemore ---- Connect with Oliver Burkeman: https://oliverburkeman.com https://instagram.com/oliverburkeman_ https://tiktok.com/@oliverburkeman https://linkedin.com/in/oliver-burkeman Oliver’s Books: Meditations for Mortals: Four Weeks to Embrace Your Limitations and Make Time for What Counts US https://amzn.to/4mqzoFF UK https://amzn.to/489at6b #feelbetterlivemore #feelbetterlivemorepodcast ------- Order MAKE CHANGE THAT LASTS. US & Canada version https://amzn.to/3RyO3SL, UK version https://amzn.to/3Kt5rUK ----- Follow Dr Chatterjee at: Website: https://drchatterjee.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drchatterjee Twitter: https://twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Newsletter: https://drchatterjee.com/subscription DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostOliver Burkemanguest
Sep 24, 20251h 55mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:04

    Stop chasing the “calm life” and start living it now

    1. RC

      In your new book, you talk about the kind of life that you would like to be living, and you describe it as calm and focused, energetic and meaningfully productive and connected to others, as opposed to anxious, isolated, and overwhelmed. I think that's the kind of life, Oliver, that many people would also like to lead. So I guess my first question is twofold: Why do so many people struggle to lead that kind of life? And secondly, how are you getting on in your quest to doing so?

    2. OB

      [laughing] Great questions. Yeah, I mean, I think there are so many reasons why, why it's hard to, to sh- to, to live that kind of life, right? Reasons to do with the society that we live in, reasons to do with the ways we were parented and the messages we give ourselves. I think the reason I really want to focus in on, and that relates to your second question, is there's a problem with seeing that as something that you're striving towards, something that's off in the future, and that you're gonna work really, really hard, and then eventually that's gonna be your life. There's a big sort of mistake involved in that, in that approach, as opposed to seeing it as something that you can actually claim for yourself right here in the, in the moment. And of course, that doesn't get away from the fact that there's, like, too much to do and too many emails, and the economic system that we live in exerts all sorts of pressures. But there's something really important, I think, about the idea that we can actually enter into that way of being right here, at least to some degree, instead of seeing it as this thing that we're constantly chasing on the horizon. So yeah, my-- to the extent that I have succeeded in living a life like this, which is definitely only, [chuckles] only partial, um, is because I've found ways to sort of step into it now instead of, uh, sort of reinforcing this notion that it's always in the future, that I've always got to do more until I can, till I can get to it.

  2. 2:04 – 4:10

    Weight loss and overwhelm: the hidden cost of postponing happiness

    1. RC

      Yeah, it's interesting. Through, through the lens of health, I think about what you just said in the context of weight loss. And something I've realized over my career is for people who are looking for sustainable weight loss, for whatever reason that might be, too often it's put off into the future. When I lose weight-

    2. OB

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... and get to this weight, I'm going to be happy and go on holiday here and do this or do that hobby, whatever it might be. And I found it much more, um, helpful for people to say, "No, no, why don't you do those things now?"

    4. OB

      Right.

    5. RC

      And then I think you'll find that the weight loss, obviously you have to do some things-

    6. OB

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... are gonna come quite nicely as a, almost like a second order effect of that, rather than the other way around.

    8. OB

      Totally. I can totally see how that will work in weight loss. I think of it in the context of like, um, overwhelm, right? I have a sh- huge tendency, I'm, I'm letting go of it to a large extent, but I have this huge tendency to say, "Right, okay, I want my life to be calm and peaceful." It feels incredibly overwhelming, overwhelmed with demands and obligations, and emails and everything. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna really, really buckle down and power through and spend much more time, uh, on all the, the overwhelming stuff, and actually have a less peaceful life and a busier life, and a more stressed life 'cause I'm gonna get through it to this-

    9. RC

      Mm

    10. OB

      ... alleged vista of peace and calm on the other side. And I think where that connects to what you were saying is, if instead you can see how you show up in the day-to-day as some form of expression of the life that you wanna live. Not a perfect one, it's never gonna be a perfect one, but if you can sort of... If you say like, "Okay, I, I want to get to this point where I've lost enough weight that I can enjoy myself, so what if I took that focus on what I want to enjoy now?"

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    12. OB

      And I think it, time and again, yeah, people find that-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. OB

      ... what happens then is like, then you're living, you're living the life you want to live in, so it's exciting and fun to get better at living that life-

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. OB

      ... and to lose more weight and to be more calm, and to handle more of the demands without sort of, well, spinning off into overwhelm.

  3. 4:10 – 6:02

    Self-compassion without the cringe: the “reverse golden rule”

    1. RC

      Yeah, there's also a compassion to yourself in living this way. I know you, you do talk about in one of the chapters, and you also acknowledge how self-compassion can be a difficult term for British people-

    2. OB

      Yes

    3. RC

      ... to get, to get our heads around.

    4. OB

      Yep.

    5. RC

      Right? But through the lens of weight loss, it, you know, often people wanna, uh, beat themselves up, deprive themselves, restrict themselves until they've reached the goal-

    6. OB

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... of a set weight, so that then they're gonna start, you know, treating themselves in the right way and it, it doesn't work like that.

    8. OB

      All, all you're doing then, right, is yeah, you're reinforcing this notion that you're bad.

    9. RC

      Exactly.

    10. OB

      You need fixing. You can't really fully participate in life until you have, uh, achieved that, that, that fixing. And the... I mean, I had such a struggle with this idea of self-compassion because, as you say, there's something about it that invites me to think I'm being told that I have to see myself as super, super special, and much more deserving of love and cuddles than anyone. None of that. The thing that really made the change for me was when I came across this idea from a philosopher called Ido Landau, who talks about the, the reverse golden rule. So not treat other people as you would like to be treated yourself, the famous golden rule, but, but, um, don't treat yourself worse than you would treat other people. And I think that is, that was such a moment for me when I realized that I sort of went through my days often sort of berating myself internally in ways I would just never... Like, I would just never dream of doing that to, well, anyone. A friend-

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. OB

      A person I met in a, like, day-to-day business context, it would be utterly outrageous to be that, that horrible. So all I was asking of myself, even if it gets labeled self-compassion and triggers all sorts of cringe responses from Brits, like all I was asking from, of myself was equal treatment, uh, that I would already perfectly, that I was already perfectly good at giving to other people.

  4. 6:02 – 8:27

    There’s always too much to do—so you can stop trying to “win” time

    1. RC

      In your answer to my first question, you said it doesn't mean that there's not gonna be too many things to do or too many emails. And it's kind of interesting, that really landed and, and kind of has been whirring in my brain since then. So my question is: Is that really true? Are there always gonna be too many things to do and too many emails, or perhaps could it be the way that we're framing those things to do and those emails?

    2. OB

      The answer is yes. Um, right, it's totally a question of perspective, and I think this is something that I've tried to find ways to articulate lots of times in my writing. It's like you have an incredibly finite capacity for doing things because you are a human, and you have so much time on the planet and so many hours in the day and so much attention and energy. And so the amount of things that feel like they need doing is basically infinite, right?

    3. RC

      Mm.

    4. OB

      There's no reason why your brain can't feel that your obligations to your family, the ambitions you have for your job, whatever it might be, that just k- keeps on expanding, whereas your finite capacity really, really doesn't. And so, yeah, from that perspective, there's always too much to do. But because there's always too much to do, and there's no way around it, that is kind of another way of saying that there isn't too much to do.

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. OB

      Because this is not s- this is not a war that you can win [laughs] as a finite human being. So there's a quote, um, that I really like, uh, that says, I'm gonna mangle it, but it says something like, "The problem is not that we have... don't have enough time to do the things we need to do, it's that we feel the need to do too many things in the time we have."

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. OB

      And of course, this is a lot harder for some people than others, right? You can absolutely feel like you have to do an impossible amount just to keep a roof over your head, and that's a very real and acute feeling. But actually, nobody can do an impossible amount.

    9. RC

      Mm.

    10. OB

      And so in the end, all you can ever really do with the time in your life is a handful of the things that you might feel you wanted to do with them. And when you see how totally inescapable that is, I think it's really liberating.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. OB

      I think it's like, "Oh, it's not 'cause I'm a loser that I haven't figured out how to do all these things. It's not 'cause I haven't r- found the right productivity system." It's because you don't get to do all the things.

  5. 8:27 – 11:47

    Why “Four Thousand Weeks” hit: relaxing into reality (the raincoat metaphor)

    1. RC

      Your last book just before this, Four Thousand Weeks, and this new one, Meditations for Mortals, I think one of the reasons they're striking such a deep chord with so many people around the world is precisely because of what you just said, this acceptance that I actually can't do everything.

    2. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      You know, it... Well, let me put it to you. Um, your last book, Four Thousand Weeks, became a global smash bestseller, right? So first of all, congratulations.

    4. OB

      Thank you.

    5. RC

      Um, but related to that is the question why. Why do you think that book at that time made waves in the way that it did? Right? What was it in that book?

    6. OB

      I mean, who knows? And I think a lot of it is just luck and good fortune. But I suppose if I was gonna try to answer it, I would say-

    7. RC

      English modesty. I like it

    8. OB

      ... Well, you know, but it's also true, right? But I also think if you're gonna try to... If I was gonna try to answer that, I would say f- for various reasons, partly having to do with coming out of the pandemic, partly having to do with the, the s- the, the stage that kind of books and thinking about productivity and stuff were, were at at that point, it was time for something that sort of gently introduced people to this, to this, like, fact. Instead of this notion... So we, there'd been a lot of, a lot of the history of sort of, um, time management advice is like, "If you follow my system and you really try hard, then you're gonna get to the point where you can do everything that needs doing." And then there was a bit of a rebellion that came in the, in the form of saying like, "Well, this is all rubbish anyway. Stop working for the man. Rebel. Like, just chill out." Which I don't even necessarily object to, but it's n- not what a lot of people want to do or can do. And so I think it was time for someone to say, "Look, you can be productive and ambitious, and you can do... You can make a difference in the world. What you can't do is get your arms around an infinite number of-

    9. RC

      Mm

    10. OB

      ... potential demands, obligations, ambitions." And there's a sort of a... There's a moment there where you can, I went through it myself, and I hope that the book has led people through it as well, where you can sort of, oh, just sort of relax into reality.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. OB

      I've compared it in a couple of places to that feeling like you're, you're out in, uh, you're out in the street, and you haven't brought the right, um, like, waterproofs, and it starts raining. And for a while, you sort of like keep trying to find ways, almost unconsciously, to keep the water off you, and the rain gets heavier and heavier, and eventually you're just like, "Okay, I'm gonna get wet." It's like, "Okay, I'm gonna be finite in this ocean of infinite possibilities."

    13. RC

      And it's fine.

    14. OB

      And it's fine, right? Yes. There are def-

    15. RC

      The pro- the problem is when you resist it.

    16. OB

      Right. Exactly. There is nothing wrong-

    17. RC

      I'm like, "Oh, I don't want it, I don't want it."

    18. OB

      Right. Right.

    19. RC

      You know, I didn't get the right clothes.

    20. OB

      Yeah. Yeah.

    21. RC

      That's, that's where the stress comes.

    22. OB

      Yeah. And then you're just soaking wet. Okay.

    23. RC

      Yeah.

    24. OB

      That's life.

    25. RC

      I, I, I would agree. I think the idea that you can't do everything, I, I think it particularly resonates now b- because of the world in which we live. You know, the amount of information we get exposed to on social media. We see all these incredible things that we could be doing-

    26. OB

      Mm-hmm

    27. RC

      ... and that some of your friends will be doing, right? But you've only got twenty-four hours in a day.

    28. OB

      Mm-hmm.

  6. 11:47 – 16:15

    Designing a “happy ending”: weekly habits that define winning at life

    1. RC

      Um, it's funny, as I've been reading Meditations for Mortals over the last couple of days, I thought maybe one of the reasons why... There, there's an exercise that I call Write Your Own Happy Ending that I wrote about in my book on happiness, and it really had a profound impact on me. I wonder if I could put it to you, actually.

    2. OB

      Totally, yeah.

    3. RC

      'Cause I, I think it, I think it really-Embraces limitation and what matters at its heart. So there's two parts of the exercise. Part one is, um, fast-forward to the future. Imagine you're on your deathbed, and look back on your life and imagine, you know, what are three things you will want to have done-

    4. OB

      Mm-hmm

    5. RC

      ... or spent your time on? And, you know, the truth is we, we, we probably know what a lot of these things are because people have written books about the regrets of the dying and what people actually do say on their deathbed. But for us individually, we can imagine. So for me, for example, last time I did this exercise was, uh, I want to have spent quality time with my friends and family. I want to have had time to pursue my own passions.

    6. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RC

      And I will thirdly want to have done something that improves the lives of other people. So that's part one. Then you go to part two, which is you come back to the present moment, and you come up with three what I call happiness habits. So these are three things that I can try and commit to each week that will pretty much guarantee I get the happy ending I've just defined that I want.

    8. OB

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      So how that worked for me was the f- you know, the three things that I put down are, you know, I would specify how many, uh, undistracted meals with my wife and kids I want a week, and I think the, the, the current one is five.

    10. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      Okay? It might be different for someone else, but for me it's a nice thing. If I can have five undistracted meals with Ben and the kids where I'm not thinking about work, if I keep doing that week after week, come my deathbed, I will have ticked off number one. Uh, if I get a chance to go for a long run each week or play my guitar and write a song and have a sing, I will know that at the end of my life I will have found time for my passions.

    12. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. RC

      And if I... You know, the third one was, if I release an episode a week of this podcast, which I've been doing for seven and a half years, I know-- and I keep doing that, I know I'm gonna be doing something to improve the lives of others. And why it's been so helpful for me is because it, it embraces this concept that your to-do list is never done. There's always more you could be doing.

    14. OB

      Right.

    15. RC

      But if I just do those three things each week-

    16. OB

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... I'm winning at life, and I have to just let go of the other stuff. And it's not there as a stick to beat me with. If I have a busy week where I'm traveling and I don't get to do them, it's just a nice gentle reminder, "Hey, you only had one-

    18. OB

      Mm-hmm

    19. RC

      ... meal with Ben and the kids last week."

    20. OB

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      Uh, don't let that become a, a pattern where you're doing that for a second week or a third week. So w-what do you think of that? Do you think that speaks to some of the ideas in your book?

    22. OB

      No, I think it really does. I think one of the other thing I-- one of the other things I love about that is that it sort of takes, um, these goals that you have and brings them-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. OB

      ... forward from the future into, like, what the goal is in doing these things in the present. Um, now, I'm not saying that I and some people whose minds work like mine wouldn't then be able to turn that into a stick to beat themselves with. It's like, "Oh, my God-

    25. RC

      I have to carry-

    26. OB

      ... have I done the five? Have I done the five?" Whatever. And I think, you know, it's not a, the, the, the amount of, the proportion of the week that that might take. I mean, I know podcast probably takes a lot of your week, but, like, that's actually a relatively small number of the hours that you're awake, and that's very good too because there's a strong tendency, I think, in a lot of sort of goal-setting, life-visioning approaches to try to account for every minute of the day, and then you get very depressed and frustrated 'cause you realize that an extraordinary amount of the day just seems to go in, like, you know, just the, just, just living. Just like-

    27. RC

      Yeah

    28. OB

      ... getting dressed and, like, you know, whatever. Just, just stuff that doesn't fulfill you. And so I think if you can take that alternative approach that says, you know, "Here are a few sort of pinpoints in the course of a week that would express that long-term, uh, goal," I think that's, that's fantastic. Yeah. No, that's very inspiring.

    29. RC

      Yeah, you, you, I mean, you write about it beautifully in, in your introduction to Meditations for Mortals. When you give up the unwinnable struggle to do everything, that's when you can start pouring your finite time and attention into a handful of things that truly counts. That's life, isn't it? A handful of things that truly matter.

  7. 16:15 – 22:10

    Seasons of life: choosing now without pretending it’s forever

    1. OB

      I think it has to be, yeah, and I think it's-- I think that the problem is not that that's the way it is. The problem is just always that we are tormented by the thought that it should be more and it should be more. One of the ways you can think about that that I've found very helpful is sort of seasonally, right? The fact that you're giving things up for now to focus on these few things doesn't mean you're giving them up for forever, right?

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. OB

      So maybe in your focus on these three things, there's something that you don't get to, to do. Maybe you don't get to indulge your passion for some other activity-

    4. RC

      Yeah

    5. OB

      ... or, you know, uh, something like that. But you can always, like, this is for now, right?

    6. RC

      This is for now.

    7. OB

      Yeah. Yeah.

    8. RC

      Exactly.

    9. OB

      Exactly.

    10. RC

      You know, it's not like-

    11. OB

      Right. Yeah

    12. RC

      ... when I'm sixty, I'm gonna beat myself up.

    13. OB

      Right.

    14. RC

      "You said you were gonna do that."

    15. OB

      Right.

    16. RC

      "You put it down in, uh, twenty twenty-three on your list."

    17. OB

      Right.

    18. RC

      "You're not doing it now in twenty forty-three." Whatever. All you can ever do is make a decision-

    19. OB

      No, absolutely

    20. RC

      ... in the moment now.

    21. OB

      And it, and it means that you're approaching the reality of, you know, you're, you're... It, it's awful for any of us with kids at home to think about one day your kids will be out in the world and, you know, maybe you'll persuade them all to live within, uh, like, half a mile of your house, but maybe you won't and you won't get so many meals in the course of a week, and that's fine too because that'll be that season. So instead of trying to optimize everything, you focus on what you have now and how that can give meaning to what you're doing right now.

    22. RC

      Yeah. The, the sort of embracing our limitations, yes, I think it helps us be, you know, calmer, less anxious, you know, enjoy our lives more, which I think is, is one of these core messages that you talk about. But it, it kind of also applies, I think, to other genres as well. I think it, it helps with creativity. As I've become a creator over the last years and write, I'm like, those, those limitations that we impose on ourself-

    23. OB

      Mm-hmm

    24. RC

      ... and frankly life imposes on us, that's what leads to creativity. That's what leads to a meaningful life. You know, the-- Acknowledging that you can't do everything-

    25. OB

      Yeah

    26. RC

      ... gives you the license to go, "Yeah, so what do I wanna do?"

    27. OB

      Yeah. No, and I think it's true. I think it's worth doing just as a thought experiment that philosophers have debated this, right? But, like, if you were actually gonna live forever-Um, not in any kind of religious sense that you may believe, but, but just in the sense of, like, your actual life here on Earth going on and on and on and on forever. I think very possibly it would be terrible, right? It would be the quest-- because the question, like, what should I do with my day, would always be like, doesn't matter, right? There's always, there's always more days. And there's something about the fact that we are in these limited situations that, that gives value to the, the choices that we make. I've written before about, like, the joy of missing out, right? It's this sense that, like, it matters more. If you're staying home for bedtime with your kids, it matters more to know that you, in principle, could have been somewhere else and you chose not to be-

    28. RC

      Mm.

    29. OB

      -somewhere else. That gives it value. And then the other thing that re-- just on my mind when you talked about creativity, um, there is I am always at pains to try to emphasize... Like, I think this way of embracing the truth about your finitude is completely consistent with, like, being very ambitious for your life. I think I am, and I think occasionally I've run into people who've sort of misunderstood and thought what I'm saying is like, "Ah, you can't do very much. Like, just settle for mediocrity. Like, there's no point trying to reach the heights because, ah, we're all just too limited." And it's like, no, no, no. It's the exact opposite. It's like it is by acknowledging the limited reality of our, of the reality of our limitations, that that's how you can then, like, focus your life for the most meaningful ambitions that you're capable of.

    30. RC

      Is, is that because, though, it's you, you acknowledge that I can't do everything. I'm a finite human with a set amount of years on this planet, so therefore I'm gonna choose very intentionally and carefully what it is that's truly important to me. So is it, is it that you're, you're doing less better?

  8. 22:10 – 25:53

    Big moves and intuitive aliveness: from Brooklyn to North Yorkshire

    1. RC

      A few years ago, you made a very big life move, didn't you? You were working, I believe, as a journalist in Brooklyn.

    2. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      Um, and you have moved to North Yorkshire.

    4. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      Can you contrast for us, you know, what has the difference been? You know, what, I, I guess what led you to go to Brooklyn? What was your life like in Brooklyn, and how does that compare to what your life is like in Yorkshire?

    6. OB

      I mean, as always, these things have more moving parts, and they're more complex-

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. OB

      -than, than it looks from the, from the outside to a... I do come from North Yorkshire, but to a significant extent, this was led as much by my wife as me in terms of wanting to have a spell of time outside the city. Um, to some extent, we're like a da- another data point 'cause it happened at the end of the pandemic, when it turned out that almost anyone who could ended up making this, this sort of move. We thought we were being terribly unique and individual at the time, but it's just like-

    9. RC

      [chuckles]

    10. OB

      -you know, just statistics. Um, I think that when it comes to those kinds of big decisions, I've got more and more able to see that these are things you have to reach intuitively, right? It's not gonna work to put, make a list of pros and cons and try and add number scores to each thing and figure it out. I've, I've been in a situation several times in my life where, and I've become more, um, able to see that this is going on as I've gotten older, uh, where clearly the direction of just sort of growth and generativity and, and, and enlargement, is a phrase somebody, uh, uh, James Hollis, the Jungian therapist, uses. Like, it lies in a specific direction, right? So it's like actually to continue in this particular place right now, doing this stuff, it wouldn't be challenging in the right way. It wouldn't be leading me into the next chapter of things. And it's, it's really hard to put into words-

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    12. OB

      -because it is actually, like, all your unconsciousness as well that has this kind of amazing amount of information in it that's very hard to express, uh, in e-explicitly. But, you know, if you want to put it another way, I was interested in being near s- my extended family. I have friends in, um, the area that I wanted to reconnect with properly. I'm, I love the landscape of the North York Moors, where we, where we live. I've always, since I was a child, felt a really deep connection to that sort of rather bleak and windswept, uh, place. Um, so there were all these things that sort of pointing in, in that direction, and we thought it would be a good place for our son, uh, at least the sort of early years of his schooling. Um-So, you know, all these specific things, but actually what it was on a deep level was this sense that, like, it might be fun in some ways and difficult in other ways, but all of those would be in the direction of something kind of juicy-

    13. RC

      Mm-hmm

    14. OB

      ... and something that was, like, alive. Whereas not doing it and coming up with all the good rational reasons why it wasn't sensible to do it right now or whatever-

    15. RC

      Mm

    16. OB

      ... would be against that spirit of aliveness. More and more I come back to this thing called aliveness, which I don't even know what it is, but it seems like it is what, what we can navigate by.

    17. RC

      You had this inner sense that this is what you needed to do. That's what you wanted to do.

    18. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. RC

      You know, maybe you couldn't rationally argue it, so you know, a pro-

    20. OB

      Right

    21. RC

      ... recon list and it go, oh, on balance, it's got six pros, that's got four.

    22. OB

      Right.

    23. RC

      It's like life doesn't really work like that. I, I mean, I really do feel more and more even, even when it comes to health, I think the most important things are led by our intuition-

    24. OB

      Mm-hmm

  9. 25:53 – 38:12

    Every choice has downsides: consequences, perfectionism, and regret

    1. RC

      ... and that inner gut feeling that we just know. Um, you, you write in the book about Sheldon Kopp's phrase, "You are free to do whatever you like. You need only to face the consequences."

    2. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      Right? Let's use that phrase to examine your move from Brooklyn to North Yorkshire.

    4. OB

      Okay.

    5. RC

      Um, you know, you were free to do it. What have the consequences been? Has... You know, the theme in these, in these last two books of yours about living that more meaningful, calm, less anxious life, has that move helped you towards that goal? And what have you lost by not living in Brooklyn?

    6. OB

      Right. Yeah, no. It totally has helped me, I think, but it, but it, it has helped me partly because it's helped me understand the truth of that phrase, right? "You're free to do whatever you like. You need only face the consequences." We are not asked as human beings to make choices that have no downside. That is never a possibility for us. So whenever you face any kind of big decision or little decisions actually, like whether to stay at your desk for another hour of emails at five thirty or to go home to your family, if you have that choice, even that kind of choice is relevant here as well, right?

    7. RC

      Mm-hmm. For sure.

    8. OB

      In every one of those moments, there's a downside to the choice that, um, you end up making, and there would be a downside to the, to the other choice. And what I find so amazing about that Sheldon Kopp quote, what helped me about it was it's like, oh, right, all I'm doing is choosing which set of downsides I want to take responsibility for. I don't have to worry about not having found a version of this, uh, life that doesn't have the downside. So, you know, in the context of the move, as you asked, I definitely miss a lot of people who I'd become close to in New York and a certain kind of ease with which it was possible to just make a plan to see them and fall into deep, long, stimulating conversation.

    9. RC

      Mm.

    10. OB

      That was wonderful. There's a vibrancy to living in Brooklyn, a sort of real sort of energy in that place that, um, I will always love, and I don't know, maybe we'll be back there. I don't know. But, but, uh, so these things really, like once I realized that I didn't have to persuade myself they were-- they didn't matter, that's what makes it possible to make a move, right? Because you're saying, yeah, no, that will be a, that will be a disadvantage.

    11. RC

      That will be a downside.

    12. OB

      And also there's the whole disadvantage of uncertainty, right? Like maybe there'll be other downsides. Uh, one downside of a move from one country to another is that you don't know what all the downsides are going to be. So like it goes on and on and on. But that enables you to, or enabled me to let go of that tendency that I definitely had from a young age to constantly be second-guessing myself and being like, "Ah, I messed up here 'cause I'm, 'cause I'm not, 'cause I've, 'cause there are downsides," right? "'Cause I'm missing out on things," or, "It would've been good for my career to be in this place," or, "It would've been good for my son to have this benefit of living..." It's like, no. Yes, it would've been. And also-

    13. RC

      And, yeah

    14. OB

      ... right? [laughs] And also there are wonderful, amazing, utterly unplannable advantages of being where we are. Um, I've talked about the landscape, but the people as well, right? And you know, it's like, it's, it's, it's a different kind of amazing, uh, benefit.

    15. RC

      I think, I think some of this frustration or this umming and ahhing comes from perfectionism.

    16. OB

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      Right? A belief that it is possible to make the perfect decision-

    18. OB

      Right

    19. RC

      ... with no downsides.

    20. OB

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      And it isn't.

    22. OB

      Right.

    23. RC

      There's a consequence to everything.

    24. OB

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      I think for me at least, on- once you get good or better at recognizing that, number one, and then number two, trying to articulate them, try to go, oh, yeah, as you said, you know, there, there, you know, there are things you miss about Brooklyn. Yeah.

    26. OB

      Yeah. Right. [laughs]

    27. RC

      There, there are. You can't have that-

    28. OB

      Right

    29. RC

      ... in rural Yorkshire.

    30. OB

      Right.

  10. 38:12 – 44:33

    Rethinking productivity: meaningful output without toxic optimization

    1. RC

      Some people will call you a productivity guru.

    2. OB

      [laughs]

    3. RC

      Are you one?

    4. OB

      Oh, I don't know what that... I mean, uh, y- you know, I think on the one hand, I hate the idea because I think productivity has come to mean, um, you know, just getting the ways to get as many things done as possible.

    5. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    6. OB

      And a big part of what I'm, as you can tell, like a big part of what I'm trying to get at here, is that just doing more things is, A, not inherently valuable. Depends what the things are, right?

    7. RC

      Mm.

    8. OB

      There are plenty of, uh, people in the world at large who I might like to be doing fewer of the things they do. I think the world would be a better place if they didn't, if they did fewer things.

    9. RC

      Mm.

    10. OB

      And, and all of us can only do so many things anyway. But also because... But, but at the same time rather, um, I think there is some meaning of the word productivity that I, that I think is important that, that I do want... I'm someone who wants to, like, do cool things with my life-

    11. RC

      Mm

    12. OB

      ... that make some kind of a difference. There's a danger whenever we talk about this kind of paths to more peace of mind and out of anxiety and all of these things. There's a danger which you occasionally see reinforced by certain kinds of spiritual teacher and spiritual book that suggests that, like, there's either the life where you do all the stuff and it's kind of frenetic and overwhelmed and anxious, or there's the life where you just sort of float-

    13. RC

      Mm

    14. OB

      ... through your days, and you don't care anymore about doing things 'cause you've transcended to this level where all of that is irrelevant. And I feel like one way of expressing everything I'm trying to do is to say, "No, I think we can have both of these." I think we can have the peace of mind and the creativity and the generativity-

    15. RC

      Mm

    16. OB

      ... and the energy, uh, not in, not in the spirit of trying to make ourselves feel like we're doing enough, but in the spirit of saying, "Okay, I am enough, but now what I wanna do with-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. OB

      ... this thing, person I am in the world," is like express, uh, e- express this through, you know, uh, creativity, through-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. OB

      ... through work, through, through building things.

    21. RC

      I, I, I think you're a meaningful productivity guru as opposed to a toxic productivity guru.

    22. OB

      I'll take that. I'll take that. The guru thing is interesting, too. Although this is where I, like, uh, in terms of, like, our profile as advice bestowers, it's even more of a interesting thing for, for, for you than for me perhaps. But, like, I spent a long time being very sort of self-deprecating about, "Well, I don't know, I don't have anything special to tell, to say." And I think it's important to be very honest, and I try to be in, in terms of, like, that I'm not, like, living some perfect life and now-

    23. RC

      Mm

    24. OB

      ... you lucky, lucky people get to copy me, right? That's not the spirit of any of this at all. We're all just muddling through. But on the other hand, more recently, I have come to understand that this sort of knee-jerk British self-deprecation can be a little bit unhelpful and annoying.

    25. RC

      Yeah. For sure.

    26. OB

      And you do have to hold some element of the, um, authority that is vested in you. Like, that's actually helpful to people.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. OB

      As I say, I suspect you know about this much more than me, but, like, you don't... It's no, it's not a useful contribution to the world to say, "Oh, I've got nothing to teach."

    29. RC

      Yeah. E- exactly. Uh, uh, you know, it's, this is such an interesting point for me. Let's take this podcast as an example. I've been very clear, I, I think, I hope, over the many years that this show's been running, that I didn't tell anyone what to do.

    30. OB

      Mm-hmm.

  11. 44:33 – 1:02:04

    The book as a ‘retreat of the mind’: structure, short chapters, and four weeks

    1. OB

      ...that they had to go through to get to, to get to. And so actually one of the things I, I do early on in this book, um, it's divided up into lots of small chapters over the course of four weeks. The idea is that you could do like roughly a chapter a day for a, for a month. Um, and I say like, if you're the kind of person who I have been, right, who gets a book like this and wants to try to squirrel away every bit of information in it or, or take detailed notes or put it all into practice. Like maybe instead of that, just sort of go through it and see what sticks.

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. OB

      Because if something sticks, that's a really good sign that it's meeting you at the right time. And if something else is like, okay, well, that was mildly entertaining, but it's doesn't really resonate, then like that's information. The idea that you should then take that and try and force yourself to do that thing in that chapter, um, even though it doesn't resonate is, is, is a mistake.

    4. RC

      Yeah. It was interesting to see how you followed up from Four Thousand Weeks. I think the structure in this book is brilliant. It is such a beau-- Yeah, I think you call it a retreat for the minds.

    5. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RC

      Um, just trust that if it resonates, it will stick.

    7. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RC

      And I, I really like that as opposed to, you know, jot it all down, make notes, going, "Oh, you know, all of a sudden I must do this, and now how do I apply this?" It's much more freeing, I think, than that.

    9. OB

      I'm glad you think that. And I think the other, the other thing that I was hoping to get at with that is like, I didn't wanna create, uh, it would've been totally contradictory and hypocritical of me to create a book where the, the feeling of it was like, you know, get all this into your head, and then when you get a free week in a couple of months' time, and you're through all this other stuff, like then you can put it into practice. High energy, perfect, like hit all the points. I wanted it to be something that you can read right now before you've got through all the emails, before you've fixed your terrible problem with procrastination or distraction or whatever terrible problem you imagine yourself to have.

    10. RC

      Give yourself-

    11. OB

      Right. Just right here before the world calms down and the news headlines stop being so terrifying because that might never be going to happen. And so just right here in the middle, that's this idea of retreat of the mind, right? Not you have to go on a retreat for a week when you can finally book the leave, but like, no, just in the back of your mind-

    12. RC

      Mm-hmm

    13. OB

      ...now in the middle of it all. And so that required the chapters to be very short because like it's gonna be on a commute or with a morning coffee or-

    14. RC

      Well, that's, that's the be-- That's... I think that's the gold in this book or o-one of the pieces of gold. And, and actually you could, you could make the case or I'll make it for you, you're probably too modest, that you could just continue with your life the way it is and just read one of these short chapters each day for twenty-eight days as you propose, and you're probably gonna get some quite profound benefits because it's just these gentle realizations, I think, that people are gonna get about the state of their daily life. And as you say, the important things are gonna stick 'cause, you know, we're the best one in the world, not everything, and, and I don't mean this in your book, not any in my books or anyone's books, not everything is gonna resonate with everyone.

    15. OB

      Right.

    16. RC

      It can't do.

    17. OB

      Right.

    18. RC

      Because we all hear things differently.

    19. OB

      Yeah. No, totally.

    20. RC

      Okay. So can you just summarize then? It's week one, week two, week three, week four. Uh, being finite, taking action, letting go, and showing up. Can you just give us a little paragraph on what each one of those means and why you chose that order to take us through this mental retreat?

    21. OB

      Totally. Although even saying I chose it seems a little bit, um, too much. It was one of those discoveries where it just sort of like after a going through lots and lots of permutations and long conversations with my two excellent editors in the US and UK, like this just sort of im-- It, it was just obvious it had to be this way, you know? There's sometimes you'll feel like you're discovering things rather than willing them into, into reality. So yeah, it seemed very natural by the end of that process to feel like you wanna start with, um, being finite, facing the truth of our limitations, sort of feeling what it's like to accept the fact that we are in this position of limitation. Not just limited amount of time, but I think really important part of this is how limited is our control over how that time unfolds and our limited knowledge of the future and, and all the rest of it. And then the question that occurs naturally, I think, is, well, okay, so how do I actually like do the stuff I gotta do in that context or that I want to do? And so that's the, that's the week, uh, week two on taking action. One of the things that has been so important to me and that I have struggled with myself is the theme of week three, that actually a lot of the time, the way to bring more meaning into your life and to more cre-creativity, more meaningful productivity involves sort of-Getting out of your own way and letting things-

    22. RC

      Mm-hmm

    23. OB

      ... happen rather than, um, in that sort of dominating way, making them happen. So that idea of letting go is about letting go as a kind of an, an active practice. And it all seemed very naturally to, to end up in this place, uh, week four, showing up. The idea that, like, what all this is for, the destination of this, to the extent that there is a, a, a destination, 'cause it's always a sort of endless unfolding process. But that destination is just, like, being more here for your-

    24. RC

      Mm

    25. OB

      ... life. Like, ultimately, I feel like, um, w-what unifies all those things that you said in the exercise that you spoke about you, that you would want to be able to look back at from your deathbed. What unifies them all is that, like, you were really here-

    26. RC

      Hmm

    27. OB

      ... uh, and present. Uh, it's a very strange idea to put into words. But yeah, that you, that you were really alive for your life. So that-- I guess that's where this, this four-week journey, um, reaches its conclusion.

    28. RC

      Yeah. I, I kinda feel so far, although there are more we could cover, I think we've, we've spoken about this idea of being finite, okay? So, I, I mean, I, [chuckles] I love the book. It's so good. I have-

    29. OB

      Oh, thank you

    30. RC

      ... written down lots of chapter things that I want us to talk about. We won't get through them all. Actually, you know, but I j- I'm gonna just-- Before we get to week eight, I just wanna mention something there that I think really relates to one of your key messages about doing what counts. You know, focusing on what really matters. And it also maybe clashes with some of our ideas of productivity. So okay, so I host this podcast, okay? I, I know many other podcast hosts these days. Podcasting is obviously blowing up, and there's millions around the world now. And most podcasts of the size of this one tend to have researchers.

  12. 1:02:04 – 1:09:01

    Daily-ish and rules that serve life (not rules you serve)

    1. RC

      Okay, so week one, uh, being finite. Seven chapters, seven, uh, I was gonna say lessons, but you probably would, uh, urge me to not use the word lessons, but seven things to think about.

    2. OB

      Meditations.

    3. RC

      Meditations. Seven meditations. Okay, week two, there's seven meditations on taking action. Let's just cover one of them before we move on to week three. Uh, rules that serve life, doing things daily-ish. I think this is great. What, what, what is daily-ish and why is it so useful?

    4. OB

      So daily-ish is a word that I got from Dan Harris, the meditation-

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. OB

      ... teacher and podcaster. Although I think he has told me that he got it from someone else as well, [laughs] so we're not doing a good job of getting this to its f- final attribution. Um, and he uses that as a guideline for as an answer to the question, how often should you, you meditate, meaning, you know, formal meditation, which this book isn't really about. The title may be a bit misleading. My book, I mean. But he is, he teaches formal following the breath, and he sa- you know, people wanna know h- how often should I do it? Do I really have to do it daily? And it's like, well, you should do it daily-ish.

    7. RC

      [laughs]

    8. OB

      And what I love about the idea of daily-ish is that it's very gentle and flexible, right? The idea of doing anything daily-ish, reading the chapters of this book daily-ish for a month, exercising, journaling, whatever it is you're trying to do as a habit, it doesn't mean just do it when you feel like it, right? It's not just like, ah, forget it.

    9. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    10. OB

      Like, like the moment you don't wanna do it, you don't have to do it. We all have a fairly strong sense of what counts as, as doing something daily-ish. Like five or six days a week is clearly daily-ish, and in busy times, maybe four days a week is gonna count as daily-ish. But if you only do something two days a week, you're not gonna fool yourself-

    11. RC

      [laughs]

    12. OB

      ... that that's daily-ish, right? So we get past all these detailed questions of exactly how often should you be doing something, but you're still putting a sort of gentle kind of pressure on yourself to, to make sure you, you do it. And I think this is one example. That chapter is, is, uh, about the idea of rules that serve life.

    13. RC

      Mm.

    14. OB

      I think it's really easy, especially in this space of health habits, personal development-

    15. RC

      Yeah, for sure

    16. OB

      ... all the rest of it. It's really easy to think that there exists some set of rules, that if you could only find them, and then you promise to follow them completely obediently, that will be it. Your struggles will be over. The rules would effectively sort of live your life for you, and you would be like the servant of the rules. And people fall into this all the time, right? Now, from now on, this three times a week, this, this morning routine-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. OB

      ... this set of supplements, whatever, whatever, whatever. And it's not that it's bad to have rules. It's that you've put yourself in a power relationship with those rules, which sort of expects the rules to, to sort you out, and then you have to be completely sort of obedient to those rules. And I wanted to explore this notion, which I think goes a long way back, including to, um, sort of Christian monastic traditions, among many others, uh, of rules that really matter, but they're there for you. They're there for the things that you want to achieve, right? The important thing is not that you meditate every single day or even that you exercise every single day. The important thing is your peace of mind or your physical health.

    19. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    20. OB

      And then what rules serve that and what level of attachment to those rules is helpful for them to actually be sustainable part of your, of your life.

    21. RC

      Yeah, it's beautiful, and, and I think this concept of daily-ish really takes us away from this black-and-white thinking, which massively leads, comes from perfectionism, [laughs] right?

    22. OB

      [laughs]

    23. RC

      And it's interesting, you know, I was watching some of your interviews yesterday in the lead up to you coming to the studio today. And in one of the interviews I saw you were asked about non-negotiables, and it's a very common interview podcast question. You know, what are your non-negotiables?

    24. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. RC

      And I, I, you know, I've no issue with people asking that. I understand why they ask that, and it's the sort of thing that I would've thought about a few years ago, that-

    26. OB

      I'm, I'm wondering what I said now, right? [laughs]

    27. RC

      Yeah. I, I, I can't remember what you said now, actually.

    28. OB

      No, carry on. Carry on. [laughs]

    29. RC

      But-

    30. OB

      No, please, please carry on.

  13. 1:09:01 – 1:35:55

    Letting go of the ‘false allure of effort’: what if this were easy?

    1. RC

      get into week three, Letting Go, because there's just-- well, all of them, frankly. I, I, I could, I could... We could-

    2. OB

      [laughs]

    3. RC

      I actually believe that you could do a whole podcast on just one of these twenty-eight meditations, right? 'Cause they're really deep, thought-provoking ideas that have resonance and relevance for all of us. What I really like in, uh, week three, Letting Go, the chapter entitled What If This Was Easy? Uh, the false allure of effort. Can you speak a little bit to this chapter and why it was so important for you to write?

    4. OB

      Yeah. And we're definitely in the terrain here of the things that I've sort of struggled with myself the most or that more recently understood-

    5. RC

      Mm-hmm

    6. OB

      ... compared to some of the earlier weeks of the, of the book. Um, I think that there is a very natural tendency that many of us have. It's partly to do with the culture that we live in. It's definitely to do with the way we're raised. Maybe it's to do with religious traditions as well sometimes. To feel like if anything's worth doing, it's going to be pretty high effort, right? If you go through the day and you don't put in an awful lot of effort, then you're kind of not being a full, adequate human being who gets to feel good about themselves. Um, and obviously there's some truth in that idea, right? Life calls for effort in certain cases, and you have to sort of put it in, and it makes it worth living. We were talking about you putting in the effort of reading the books of your podcast guest as an example of effort that you find rewarding. But it's really easy to get to a point where you think you sort of approach life braced for everything that you're trying to do to be like some kind of fight. And it's like, oh no, like this project really matters and therefore, you know, you assume it's gonna be really hard. Or you just sort of go through the whole of your day sort of, yeah, with this kind of expectation that you're gonna have to fight your way through it. And that you're not gonna get to enjoy it, and that you're not going to get to choose to do things that you like because, like, that's not what life is about.

    7. RC

      You're postponing enjoyment for later.

    8. OB

      Right. Right, right. And just this incredible power of this idea, which has been articulated by many different people as famous quotes from Tim Ferriss and Elizabeth Gilbert to this effect, but many other people as well, like just the radicalism of asking yourself, like, what if, what if this were, what if this were easy? What if this thing I'm about to... Or what if, what would this look like if this were easy, I think-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. OB

      ... is Tim's, uh, version of it. And, um, it's such a sort of weirdly subversive question for a certain kind of person that, that I am [chuckles] that kind of person, like historically, right? That sort of like, like what would actually happen if you did the things, some of the things today that you feel like doing? And-

    11. RC

      Mm

    12. OB

      ... is it really the case that you can't do that? There are limitations to it, of course, created by our situation in life. But would I-- if I just did some things that I wanted to do, would I, would I just n- definitely choose being a layabout and sitting on the sofa and eating crisps, like, and, like, wasting my life? Or maybe I can trust myself a little bit more than that.

    13. RC

      Mm.

    14. OB

      You know, maybe I can sort of take a subtly different attitude. Um, and I, I write at one point in that chapter, I think about a author called Julia Rodgers Hamrick, who has this idea, um, of, uh, choosing easy world. And it's this idea that's felt-- struck me as just so new agey when I first came across it. Like, oh, I don't wanna go into this kind of terrain. But she has this idea that, you know, sh- she writes about when she-- the moment that she realized that you could sort of, you could just sort of choose to address a challenge in life in easy world instead of in difficult world. And she doesn't mean, I don't think, um, like persuading yourself that bad things aren't happening or-

    15. RC

      Mm

    16. OB

      ... trying to sort of force yourself to think that something painful is not painful. It's that actually you either have to choose to sort of take the attitude that everything's against you, or you can choose to take the attitude that everything is at least potentially for, for you and working in your favor. And then the great thing about this is that even difficult experiences can be approached with a kind of ease, with a kind of-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. OB

      ... um, readiness to have them go more smoothly than you were naturally, uh, or you were previously assuming. Have I made that clear? I don't know if it-

    19. RC

      Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it, it's kind of interesting that, you know, as you were just finishing there, we know that when-I don't know. When, when people run at their fastest, they're not trying to go at their fastest.

    20. OB

      Right.

    21. RC

      There is an s-- of course, it's not completely effortless, right? They're, they're clearly expending energy and effort, but there is an effortless quality-

    22. OB

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... to it where they're, they're not trying all out. They're just, they're flowing. Um, I think it's an important idea 'cause my kids, I think are a little older than your son.

    24. OB

      Son, right. He's eight.

    25. RC

      He's eight. My, my kids are fifteen and twelve. And this idea that things have to be hard, I think gets subconsciously instilled [chuckles] by, by many parts of society, but schools.

    26. OB

      Mm.

    27. RC

      Right? 'Cause I'm watching it going, "Yeah, but it, it doesn't need to be."

    28. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    29. RC

      Right? It doesn't need to be difficult. It doesn't-- not everything in life needs to be hard. And I realized a few years ago that I had to artificially create internal stress by way of, let's say, a deadline or other, or other things to make myself do stuff. So I had to create this sense that it was hard. I'm up against it-

    30. OB

      Mm-hmm

  14. 1:35:55 – 1:55:27

    Interruptions, presence, and scruffy hospitality: showing up for real life

    1. RC

      Yeah, exactly. I, uh, wanted to go to the interruption chapter. It's one of my, it's one of my favorite chapters in the book, actually.

    2. OB

      Brilliant.

    3. RC

      I, for some reason, I, I just, I just love it. And it was when you-- we were talking about that journaling exercise, and you were sort of saying when you can... Not you. One could be short with someone-

    4. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      -because we're trying to do something else that we deem-

    6. OB

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      -more important. And in that-

    8. OB

      Although me as well many times, but anyway, yeah, carry on. [chuckles] Yeah.

    9. RC

      But, but in that, you, you sort of very openly share, you know, sometimes what goes through your mind if your son comes in to see you after school-

    10. OB

      Right.

    11. RC

      -when you're trying to, I don't know, work between four and five or whatever it might be. Can you just explain that? 'Cause I think there's such a deep, simple but very deep concept behind interruptions.

    12. OB

      Yes. I think there is a tendency that we have. I mean, part of the tendency I'm tracking all the way through the book is we want to have lots more control over our lives, and we think that having more control over ourselves and our lives is the path to freedom and peace of mind and all the good things, and I'm partly questioning that. And one of the ways we do that when it comes to our time is we sort of set ourselves these schedules, these very strong, um, decisions about what we're going to use a portion of time for. And as a result, we actually end up creating a lot of the interruption problem. Like, of course, there are all sorts of things that happen unexpectedly all the time. Whether that is defined as an interruption or not is at least partly up to ourselves. So the example that I give is, you know, if it's one of the days of the week when I'm working from home, I'm not doing school pickup, um, so my son and my wife are somewhere else in the, in the house, and if he bursts into the room to tell me excitedly about something that, uh, that happened to him at school that day. Now, there are contexts if I'm right in the middle of recording a podcast or doing a live radio interview or something where, like, that's, uh, uh, higher up on the problem scale. But if I'm just sitting there, and the only problem is that I had defined that part of the day as being for deep focus, and then it becomes a problem that this otherwise totally wonderful thing that life is supposed to be about, which is moments [chuckles] of connection with your nearest and dearest, if that's only a problem because of the sort of overlay that I put on my day-

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. OB

      -in an attempt to get control over it, then I think, you know, again, in a gentle way, without beating myself up, I can suggest that maybe I've taken a wrong turn there in how I'm, in how I'm thinking about myMy time. Uh, there's also a lovely-- There's a Dutch Zen monk called Paul Loomans who I quoted a few points in this book, and he has this lovely observation about this as well, which is like, even if you do need to get back to focused work at that time, because maybe you do need to, like, um, make that interaction as short as you can to meet a deadline. Like, that's okay. That-- It's not saying you sh-should just let anyone interrupt you, even, even for lovely reasons. But even when you do need to get back to that work, the way that works most smoothly in the flow of reality is to stop, put down what you're doing, look the other person in the eyes, see them for real, and say, "This sounds really wonderful. Actually, I'm gonna need to talk to you about it in a little while." Um, that person feels seen. They go off, you know. And this can work not only in a lovely interaction with your son, but with, like, some really irritating coworker in the office or something, right? It's not actually gonna help to try not to be interrupted and keep control. It's actually like, okay.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. OB

      This is what the unfolding of time has brought for me. I don't have to be a doormat and just go with it for the next hour and a half, but I do have to, like, respond to what's really happening. And then as Loomans points out, that is much-- everyone leaves happier in that situation. It's a much smoother way of-

    17. RC

      Yeah. M-m-most stress I've realized, and some people may push back at this, but I, I really do believe this, that most stress, not all stress, but most stress is internally generated within our minds by the way we're viewing situations.

    18. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. RC

      And I think that was a prime example, you know. Um, on one level, what could be more lovely than your child wanting to see their father-

    20. OB

      [laughs] Right

    21. RC

      ... telling them about something that's happened?

    22. OB

      Right.

    23. RC

      Right? What a lovely thing.

    24. OB

      [laughs]

    25. RC

      It's only a problem because we thought I had to do this, and, and, and again, as you say, you acknowledge, you know, yes, there will be times. But, you know, creating, getting frustrated, um, by that interruption that, frankly, your son, I'm using that as an example, he's not a mind reader. Like [laughs]

    26. OB

      Right.

    27. RC

      And, and he's a child.

    28. OB

      Right. Yeah.

    29. RC

      Right?

    30. OB

      No, absolutely. Yeah. Um-

Episode duration: 1:55:28

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