AI Safety Expert: No One Is Ready for What's Coming in 2 Years | Roman Yampolskiy

Roman Yampolskiy 0:00 Long term, all jobs can be automated. Question is, do we decide to automate the job or do we prefer a human being to do it?

Marina Mogilko 0:05 [electronic music] This is Roman Yampolskiy, an AI safety professor who spent 15 years studying one question: Can we control AI? [whooshing sound]

Roman Yampolskiy 0:15 [sighs] I don't think we can. If we build them, there's nothing we can do. [electronic music] Artificial general intelligence means the system can do anything a human can do. So if we live in a world where that is true, let's say in two years, traditional paths to accumulate wealth, just having a job may not be available. [electronic music] But there are always other opportunities. We'll still have more time to ...

Marina Mogilko 0:43 You made this prediction that by 2030, 99% of jobs are going away. We're in 2026, how we're doing so far?

Roman Yampolskiy 0:51 I'm doing great. I don't know about the rest of you. The prediction is about capabilities.

Marina Mogilko 0:56 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 0:57 The technology will have to make it happen. It doesn't mean we'll decide to actually do that. Deployment through economy is very different from having technological capability to do something. Today we have self-driving cars, but we also have millions of drivers.

Marina Mogilko 1:14 That's true, but I f- I feel like with the self-driving, the, the technology's not yet there 100% in terms of safety. Yes, it can do it within the city, like San Francisco. Once it go outside, like highways, they're still not sure. So when talking about... I have a lot of people who are watching who are maybe CPAs, managers, product managers, designers, and Anthropic released this. Uh, have you seen the, the stats that AI is capable to do like 20% of their jobs? There are still a lot of areas where AI is not capable. So according to you, how much can AI do now for a typical white collar worker?

Roman Yampolskiy 1:48 So there is no typical one. Some occupations, basically if you're a white collar worker, you're doing simple manipulation on a computer. For some of them, it's gone. It's gonna be-

Marina Mogilko 1:57 Already

Roman Yampolskiy 1:58 ... So many jobs, you don't buy tickets from an agent anymore. That used to be a human job. Thousands of people sold-

Marina Mogilko 2:05 Yeah. But that's not AI, that's internet. What about like AI?

Roman Yampolskiy 2:08 Well, I'm saying technology can replace-

Marina Mogilko 2:09 Yeah

Roman Yampolskiy 2:09 ... certain jobs completely-

Marina Mogilko 2:10 Yeah

Roman Yampolskiy 2:10 ... the moment technology comes. Right now, I, I, I think things like translation, for example, I can fully automate translation for many languages.

Marina Mogilko 2:18 Mm.

Roman Yampolskiy 2:18 Are there some esoteric languages? Are there needs for political translators? Maybe. But for many of those jobs, there is no future. I wouldn't suggest-

Marina Mogilko 2:26 So translator is done

Roman Yampolskiy 2:26 ... majoring in Spanish.

Marina Mogilko 2:27 Yeah. Yeah. Translator is done. Okay, who else?

Roman Yampolskiy 2:31 Uh, junior programmers. We see huge reduction in need for people who are just graduating college or looking for a co-op who need to, uh, basically be trained to, at some point in the future, be software engineers, system architects. Right now all they know is C, C++. That's not enough.

Marina Mogilko 2:51 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 2:52 We have, I think 28% drop in, uh, co-op placement for our department.

Marina Mogilko 2:58 Oh, wow. So you see it within your department already.

Roman Yampolskiy 3:02 Yeah.

Marina Mogilko 3:03 What do you tell them, those people who are unable to find jobs?

Roman Yampolskiy 3:06 Unfortunately, we don't tell them what they need to hear. We tell them, "Try to write a new CV, try to, you know, learning additional skills." But reality is, by the time they graduate, those are usually first year co-op students, they've been in the program for a couple years, by the time they graduate in another two years, it's gonna be much worse.

Marina Mogilko 3:25 Well, if you could talk to them right now, someone comes to you, a student, and says, "You know, I've learned C++ for two years, I can't find a job. What do I do?"

Roman Yampolskiy 3:33 So some of them decided they'll have more protection if they add hardware components. So if they do engineering on, on top of computer science, electrical engineering, nanoengineering, it will give them a little more protection.

Marina Mogilko 3:44 For a couple years, or [laughs] ...

Roman Yampolskiy 3:45 For a couple years. It's all question of so we got cognitive labor automated, then physical labor-

Marina Mogilko 3:50 Mm-hmm

Roman Yampolskiy 3:50 ... comes as soon as we get robots deployed, so another three years.

Marina Mogilko 3:54 You give three years till I have a robot in my household.

Roman Yampolskiy 3:58 I, I think, uh, again, there is a big difference between you can buy it today and it's commonplace. So you can buy a flying car today.

Marina Mogilko 4:05 Yeah.

Roman Yampolskiy 4:06 We don't see flying cars.

Marina Mogilko 4:07 Yeah, it's, it's nowhere. Yeah.

Roman Yampolskiy 4:07 It's the same with humanoid robots.

Marina Mogilko 4:08 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 4:08 You can buy one, it's expensive, but, uh, they'll scale production to millions of units in a couple years.

Marina Mogilko 4:15 Wow. That actually gives me hope, 'cause I'm so tired of making... d- doing dishes and, and laundry and everything. Okay, uh, translator is done. Junior programs. It's interesting how junior programmers are done, but senior programmers are not, but this, like, being a junior programmer is a path to becoming someone senior. So how do they progress without having job experience?

Roman Yampolskiy 4:38 That's exactly the problem we're facing. They don't have any future. And when we talk about seniors are fine right now, we're talking about very short term. Long term, all jobs can be automated. Question is, do we decide to automate the job, or do we prefer a human being to do it?

Marina Mogilko 4:56 Hmm. Who decides? Is it the companies?

Roman Yampolskiy 4:58 Consumer. If I want a human podcaster to interview me, I'll come to you. If I want a robot, I'll go to a robot.

Marina Mogilko 5:05 Is this... When we see, when you see layoffs, like we're seeing Meta is about to lay off-

Roman Yampolskiy 5:09 Mm

Marina Mogilko 5:09 ... a lot of people. Uh, we, we s- we saw Jack Dorsey's, um-

Roman Yampolskiy 5:13 Blog

Marina Mogilko 5:14 ... message blogs.

Roman Yampolskiy 5:15 Blog.

Marina Mogilko 5:15 But I think he's rehiring people. But also, I was just talking to Gary Vee. Um, he's a... I think he has 700 people in his company. He thinks it's really dumb to fire people right now just because, and I see it in my operation too, if 35 people can 2X my output, then I just hire more to, like, 5X my output. And if my competitor thinks the same, then it's... it makes no sense to fire people right now, just because a human plus 10 AI agents, uh, is way better than, you know, not having that human.

Roman Yampolskiy 5:46 And right now that's the case, that one human manages them and improves the productivity. But if you can replace that human with a model you get for 20 bucks a month, are you gonna pay that human?

Marina Mogilko 5:57 The thing is, there is no such model right now-

Roman Yampolskiy 5:59 Right now

Marina Mogilko 5:59 ... that makes-

Roman Yampolskiy 5:59 But again-

Marina Mogilko 5:59 ... strategic decisions, has taste, understands me

Roman Yampolskiy 6:02 ... we are not talking about today.

Marina Mogilko 6:03 Mm.

Roman Yampolskiy 6:03 Today is not interesting. You can look outside your window and see today. We wanna know what's coming.

Marina Mogilko 6:07 Mm-hmm. And how fast, how soon is it coming?

Roman Yampolskiy 6:10 It's hyper-exponential. It's faster than we anticipated. Prediction markets had all this happen around 2045, then it collapsed. Then it's what you said, 2030, 2028.

Marina Mogilko 6:21 Okay. So is that most of the jobs... Are you still feel like, for example, agriculture. When you see it on, uh, look at Anthropic's report, agriculture is nowhere near being replaced with AI. When you say all the jobs, is it really all the jobs or just specific sectors?

Roman Yampolskiy 6:36 So I know nothing about agriculture.

Marina Mogilko 6:38 Okay.

Roman Yampolskiy 6:38 But if you have humanoid robots, that's physical labor, so that's the next wave. First, you have cognitive labor, anything you can do on a computer, any symbol manipulation.

Marina Mogilko 6:47 Yeah.

Roman Yampolskiy 6:48 That's where you're gonna see it happen. As soon as we get to human level, I see no reason to pay a human if the results are the same and you can get drop-in employee, essentially.

Marina Mogilko 6:59 Couple of years, you think?

Roman Yampolskiy 7:01 I- it seems quite possible. Okay, I'll give you that.

Marina Mogilko 7:04 Okay.

Roman Yampolskiy 7:04 What difference does it make? So you're saying in five years all the jobs are gone. Yay, great.

Marina Mogilko 7:08 So-

Roman Yampolskiy 7:08 Go to college for 10 years to become a doctor.

Marina Mogilko 7:09 No, that's... Exactly. If I know that we have three years, then my next question would be, do you think it's our last chance to build wealth for our families? If all the jobs are gone, we're not making money, and we end up in a world where, you know, that- that's it. As many... You own that much stocks, you own that much cash, 'cause, 'cause you can't make more cash. Roman just described AI systems that can outplan and out-create humans. I want to show you what that actually looks like when it hits a real tool. Higgsfield just launched their own original series. It's called Arena Zero. 10 minutes, fully AI generated, made by a small creative team inside their platform. They are calling it the world's first AI streaming platform. Short films, series, all made with AI, all watchable right now, and it's already pulled over one million views on YouTube. The whole thing was made inside Cinema Studio on Higgsfield. Here's what caught me. I run Lingua Marina, a channel for English non-native speakers, and right now it has 8.8 million subscribers, and we've been experimenting with a cartoon version of me teaching English. The thing that breaks every AI video workflow is consistency. Your character looks different in every shot. Higgsfield built something called Soul Cast. You design your AI actor once: appearance, era, outfit, archetype, and that character holds across every single shot. Up to three characters per scene, locked before you touch anything else. Then you build the shot sequence: prompt, image, 3D scene, camera movement, genre, multi-shot assembly. Color grading is built in film grain, bloom exposure. You finish the entire look without leaving the platform. Cast to cut, one workflow. And one more thing. Claude is coming to Higgsfield very soon. Stay tuned on that. Link is in the description.

Roman Yampolskiy 9:02 We don't know what happens to economy with free labor. The moment you have free labor, do you get abundance and everything is just available because it's so cheap to produce, or something else happens? We don't have any good studies on what happens to value of fiat currency with free labor. What happens to cryptocurrencies? What happens to other investments? So do stocks in non-AI companies go down? Do stocks in AI companies go up? We don't have any understanding of that space. So generally, it's a good idea to have wealth and to have it early. You'll still have more time to grow it. But it may be the case that traditional paths to accumulate wealth, just having a job, may not be available.

Marina Mogilko 9:47 But do you think our society wouldn't be as... Like, it wouldn't adjust that fast to this new... Like, our governments, they wouldn't let this happen, or humans w- I don't know. Like, I can't imagine that in three years there's no way to make money.

Roman Yampolskiy 10:03 I, I didn't say that. I, I said-

Marina Mogilko 10:05 Mm

Roman Yampolskiy 10:05 ... traditional pathways where you get a job as a junior programmer-

Marina Mogilko 10:09 Mm

Roman Yampolskiy 10:09 ... may not be available to you.

Marina Mogilko 10:11 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 10:11 There are always other opportunities. AI is a great assistant to start a company.

Marina Mogilko 10:16 Yeah.

Roman Yampolskiy 10:17 If you have a team, 35 people right now, I can have 35 agents working for me for free. A lawyer, an accountant, Lego designer, web designer. That's an opportunity we never had before.

Marina Mogilko 10:28 That's also true, but then I think what prevents an LLM from seeing a gap in the market, creating a business to fill that gap, and making all the money for whoever made that model? Do you ever think about that?

Roman Yampolskiy 10:42 Models are not limited to whoever made them. We all get access to open source models, typically a few months after the top model, private model is released.

Marina Mogilko 10:50 That's true, but also I've seen the... I've heard this theory where, for example, if you're talking to a particular chat LLM, it collects all the data about your business, and then the goal for the owner of that model is to just identify those opportunities and take over them. Do you believe that?

Roman Yampolskiy 11:07 Luckily, the scale is very different. So if Sam Altman is trying to raise $6 trillion, your mom-and-pop business is not exactly his target to overtake.

Marina Mogilko 11:17 But if it's a whole market where mom-and-pop businesses thrive, I don't know, like, like car sales, whatever. Like where he takes over the whole industry.

Roman Yampolskiy 11:26 I think the bigger concern is automation of labor, not that an evil human will use AI-

Marina Mogilko 11:32 Mm-hmm

Roman Yampolskiy 11:32 ... to steal your business process.

Marina Mogilko 11:33 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 11:33 It may happen.

Marina Mogilko 11:34 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 11:35 No doubt it happened before AI, but I don't think that's where the big damage will come from.

Marina Mogilko 11:40 How many years do you give entrepreneurs?

Roman Yampolskiy 11:42 So there is two very different question we should be talking about. One is kinda business as usual, economics, and now we're trying to understand what works in new economy. The real problem, and that's kinda what I'm talking about in some of my research, is are we still around? Are we all dead? Is superintelligence going to take us out?

Marina Mogilko 12:00 I really... I can't imagine a world where we have, I don't know, one country, one company owning everything, 'cause that's when everything disappears, right? How, how does humanity disappear? I know AGI, and it starts within one company. If one company reaches AGI earlier than other companies, then it takes over the whole world. How do I utilize the years that I have left then?

Roman Yampolskiy 12:24 I, I think it's good idea to do things which you always postpone. So a lot of people kind of think, "I'll retire in 50 years, and that's when I'm gonna really live my life, have fun and all that." And sometimes it doesn't work out. Sometimes they die of cancer at 40. So try to do things you like sooner and not do things you don't care about at all.

Marina Mogilko 12:46 But wh- when it comes to a career, right? For a lot of people, careers... But this is interesting, right? So some people... Like, this is my hobby, right? I love that it pays the bills, but also I would do it anyway. I would find something else, but I would just still have these conversations. Isn't that amazing? If labor is free, then anyone can just do their hobby. For some people, it's gardening. For some people, it's having kids and just spending time with their kids. From what I've experienced so far, like, my life has become easier just because there are so many decisions I don't wanna be making, like s- choosing new insurance or thinking about how to optimize taxes or whatever, immigration. Uh, now AI solves it for me. I stopped missing days when my kids have to wear pajamas at school. Because they would always send us these long emails.

Roman Yampolskiy 13:34 Mm-hmm.

Marina Mogilko 13:34 Now I just ask Gemini to put everything in my calendar. So I wake up in the morning, I know it's pajama day today. I used to forget all the... So now my life's getting easier, and if I could do this podcast and, you know, it's cheaper for me to have my team or whatever. Like, isn't, isn't that a great world?

Roman Yampolskiy 13:51 Right. But you're using word AI to mean completely different things. You're referring to narrow tools you're using right now to summarize your email, and you're also kinda using it as future superintelligence smarter than all of us combined.

Marina Mogilko 14:02 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 14:02 Not the same technology. AI tools, narrow AI, is awesome. I use it all the time. We should have more of it. We can use it to solve real problems, like pajama day.

Marina Mogilko 14:12 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 14:13 But if we create general superintelligence, we don't understand it, we cannot predict it, we cannot control it. It has capability of wiping out humanity.

Marina Mogilko 14:21 Can you talk about how do we create... Is that AGI?

Marina Mogilko 14:24 Is that the same?

Roman Yampolskiy 14:25 AGI is a precursor.

Marina Mogilko 14:26 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 14:26 So AGI is basically automation of human cognitive labor. It's a scientist. It's an engineer. Then artificial scientists and engineers start doing AI research. Very quickly progress goes hyper-exponential. We have systems not just smarter than any human in any domain, but smarter than all of us in all domains. Think someone with IQ of a million.

Marina Mogilko 14:48 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 14:48 We have no concept for that. We're like, oh, Einstein was 200. Many standard deviations away from the norm. So the cognitive gap is something like humans versus squirrels. Squirrels have no concept of what we are doing.

Marina Mogilko 15:01 Yeah.

Roman Yampolskiy 15:01 How we can harm them, traps, poisons, none of it makes sense to them. That will be very similar. We have systems capable of doing novel science, discovering novel physics. And if for whatever reason they decide to take us out, I don't know what the reason could be. It could be to protect them from creation of competing superintelligence. It could be to lower temperature of a planet, to improve compute. Could be something I cannot even think about.

Marina Mogilko 15:28 But can-

Roman Yampolskiy 15:28 But if they decide to do that, we cannot stop them.

Marina Mogilko 15:31 Can we instill the right values into AI?

Roman Yampolskiy 15:34 If you have a book of right values, you would be doing really well. We don't. Philosophers have spent millennia trying to agree on a set of ethical values. We don't. We disagree by religion, by region, by basically time in the history of humanity. What was ethical 100 years ago is considered completely unacceptable today. What we believe is ethical today, likewise, will be unacceptable in the future. If we somehow manage to agree on static ethics, not dynamically changing, but static, we have eight billion agents who don't agree on much. And then if we manage to agree and keep it static, we don't know how to code it up 'cause we don't program AI models. They are self-learning from data we supply.

Marina Mogilko 16:18 But if we supply data, this is your, like, personal constitution, right?

Roman Yampolskiy 16:22 Yeah.

Marina Mogilko 16:22 You don't kill humans.

Roman Yampolskiy 16:24 Yeah.

Marina Mogilko 16:24 You work for humans.

Roman Yampolskiy 16:25 Correct.

Marina Mogilko 16:26 You work for-

Roman Yampolskiy 16:26 So this is science fiction.

Marina Mogilko 16:28 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 16:28 Isaac Asimov, Three Laws of Robotics, and he wrote that exactly to demonstrate that will never work. It will always fail. It creates interesting science fiction, but if you have a superintelligent lawyer, you're not gonna fool them. Every one of those terms is self-contradictory. It's ill-defined. What does it mean not to harm a human? Is the system fighting you eating a donut because it's unhealthy?

Marina Mogilko 16:50 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 16:50 Is the system banning abortion? It's not obvious what you encode in that meaning. So people often say, "Do good. Don't do bad." Great, but now define what that means in C++.

Marina Mogilko 17:03 Well, I feel like if it's superintelligent, it will be able to. [laughs]

Roman Yampolskiy 17:06 It's a very common misconception. People think if something is smart, it's also good, and it has common sense. But common sense is not common. Human common sense is not common. What is obviously true in one culture is horrible crime in another.

Marina Mogilko 17:20 Yeah.

Roman Yampolskiy 17:21 If I say to a system, "I don't want any cancer in this world. Cancer is bad," one solution is to kill all humans. It accomplishes the goal.

Marina Mogilko 17:29 But then it's against the Constitution. Like, we don't kill. We try to prolong life.

Roman Yampolskiy 17:34 Right. And the worst dictatorships in the world all had constitutions which were beautiful.

Marina Mogilko 17:38 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 17:39 If a human dictator can find a way to bypass any regulation, a superintelligent lawyer with no way for us to punish it, it's immortal. It has no body to put in prison. It's smarter than you. Y- you can't turn it off. It's not an option. It has backups.

Marina Mogilko 17:59 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 18:01 So I don't think in any adversarial relationship we would be competitive. We would lose. So the only way to not lose is not to play the game. We can benefit from creating narrow systems. Very practical advice for your audience. Create tools for solving real world problems. Cure breast cancer. Wonderful. But if you create general superintelligence, which is right now goal of many corporations, we're all gonna regret it.

Marina Mogilko 18:27 How do you create something that cures cancer without-Creating this general intelligence 'cause as far as I understand, I interviewed, uh, Priscilla Chan who has Biohub, and they're trying to map the cell and so far even with AI tools, I think they are only able to map, like, 1% of cell 'cause there's, there's so much going on. I feel like you need the most intelligent system to go that deep. Is it even possible to create something, something that only works in a cell but doesn't understand the world?

Roman Yampolskiy 18:55 The hope is it's possible. We have some precedents. So protein folding problem was a major problem in science, very important for curing diseases, understanding human genome, and it was solved with a system which was dedicated to that problem. It was trained on relevant data. It wasn't trained on all of internet. It's at the same time not a chess player, not a politician, not a poker player. It has one task and one type of data. If you make it super capable, eventually there is a fuzzy boundary between a tool and an agent. So long term it could still be dangerous, and combination of tools can be dangerous, but it's definitely much easier for us to understand and control something narrow domain versus something completely general with full set of capabilities.

Marina Mogilko 19:39 But the, a company... Like, again, protein folding is DeepMind, and DeepMind, I guess, is working on superintelligence, right? It's the same people. I feel like it's impossible to stop this.

Roman Yampolskiy 19:50 I don't disagree with you.

Marina Mogilko 19:52 So for anyone who's watching who's concerned about this, is there anything they can do? 'Cause fr- from what I'm hearing, okay, someone's gonna reach this superintelligence. Uh, I just trust them. I hope. I-

Roman Yampolskiy 20:07 Trust

Marina Mogilko 20:07 ... well, like, I mean, what, what can I do? [swish] If you're enjoying this episode and if you want to stay relevant in the era of AI or at least understand what's going on, please follow this channel. I sit down with the most amazing guests every single week to learn about AI. And the thing is, when I sit down with people like Roman, I do care if it goes live, but also, like, having these conversations is really important for my mental health to understand what's going on, to be prepared because I like to stay in control, right, and at least be able to do something with this information. So if you're like me and you want to tune in, please do not forget to subscribe to this channel. [swish]

Roman Yampolskiy 20:45 So that's the common assumption people make.

Marina Mogilko 20:46 Not buy their stock. [laughs]

Roman Yampolskiy 20:47 They think that, uh, people working on this technology understand what they are doing. They have no idea. They publicly say it. They don't understand how the system works. They cannot predict it. They cannot fully control it. The best they can do is put some filters in place. "Don't talk about this topic. Don't say that word." So depending on who the member of your audience is, maybe there is nothing they can do. If there's someone in positions of leadership, political or in a company, they can make those decisions what to build, what not to build.

Marina Mogilko 21:17 I just wonder... 'Cause again, if we take those large companies, they work for shareholders. They're all competing with each other. The only way to win is to reach superintelligence, right? 'Cause there's no other way to win this game.

Roman Yampolskiy 21:29 Well, you can make a lot of money curing real problems in the real world. You don't have to create superintelligence to get most of economic benefit.

Marina Mogilko 21:37 It feels like once you reach superintelligence, you, you're able to solve... able to build businesses, you're able to cure cancer, and just solve every problem in the world. Isn't that-

Roman Yampolskiy 21:46 Except controlling it

Marina Mogilko 21:46 ... except controlling it.

Roman Yampolskiy 21:48 Which seems like a big problem. No amount of money is a good investment if you're gonna be dead.

Marina Mogilko 21:56 Have you ever... Like, have you seen a leader, uh, of those companies or similar companies who are committed to doing what you're describing?

Roman Yampolskiy 22:05 So they all on record even before they became CEOs of those companies are saying AI safety is very important. This is very dangerous and likely to kill us. More recently, many of them have indicated that if others stop, they would stop.

Marina Mogilko 22:20 But nobody... But-

Roman Yampolskiy 22:20 I think CEO of Anthropic made a statement exactly that. I think China versus US, likewise, China said, "We're interested in doing it right." The Communist Party doesn't wanna lose power, so they would be open to slowing down if US did.

Marina Mogilko 22:35 But nobody, nobody's doing that. They're just saying that.

Roman Yampolskiy 22:39 We're still alive. We should try. We cannot give up.

Marina Mogilko 22:42 It feels like we need to have a nuclear level accident for people to actually start paying attention.

Roman Yampolskiy 22:49 We considered that. Unfortunately, people don't learn from those. We had nuclear war. We had nuclear bombs dropped, uh-

Marina Mogilko 22:56 And we... And then we agreed on something

Roman Yampolskiy 22:57 ... civilian population, and we continued developing nuclear weapons and spreading them to new countries.

Marina Mogilko 23:01 But at least we haven't used them since in that-

Roman Yampolskiy 23:04 So far

Marina Mogilko 23:05 ... at that scale, so.

Roman Yampolskiy 23:06 Give it some time.

Marina Mogilko 23:07 Hopefully, hopefully not.

Roman Yampolskiy 23:09 Sadly, really sadly, something like that would reduce our technological capabilities for a while. So while we would suffer tremendously from a weapon of mutual assured destruction like nuclear weapon, we would not deal with another mutually assured destruction coming from-

Marina Mogilko 23:26 Like a destruction

Roman Yampolskiy 23:28 ... superintelligence.

Marina Mogilko 23:29 What is your personal view on the next five years? What do you think is gonna happen?

Roman Yampolskiy 23:33 More of what we see, automation of more and more capabilities, and very likely we'll fully cross the human intelligence barrier. We'll have systems smarter than smartest humans.

Marina Mogilko 23:45 How do you prepare for that?

Roman Yampolskiy 23:47 You always ask questions assuming there is an answer. Some things are impossible to do. If you ask me how to build perpetual motion device, I would not say I need more funding or more time. I would say it is impossible to do. So if you ask me how do we control superintelligent machines, I don't think we can. If we build them, there is nothing you can do. If we made a smart decision against financial incentives not to build it, to benefit from narrow tools, then how do I learn more about those tools? How do I deploy them? Those are great questions.

Marina Mogilko 24:21 Since you know... Like, you, you know the worst case scenario, right? And you know it's very, very possible.You're basically going on podcasts and talking about this problem, right, to raise more awareness. But someone who doesn't have an ability to go and just talk about it, what can they do? Stop using those tools? Stop buying stocks of those companies? Like, what is a practical thing?

Roman Yampolskiy 24:44 So if you have a chance to vote for a politician who is on board with limits, and we're starting to see those-

Marina Mogilko 24:51 It's so ri- Like, I don't really see politicians talking about this. What I see is, like, "Don't regulate AI. Let's just let companies figure it out."

Roman Yampolskiy 24:57 So federal government is exactly like that. Right now they removed all previous regulations. They made it through executive order illegal for all 50 states to regulate AI. But we have certain senators, certain congresspeople now waking up to at least some of those problems. They may not fully comprehend long-term gain, but they are going, "Oh, deepfakes are bad," or maybe the large data centers will use too much energy. Doesn't matter what they are concerned about, they're sort of directionally correct.

Marina Mogilko 25:24 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 25:24 So they are suggesting limits. They are suggesting some regulation. It's true for other countries. I testified to UK Parliament. I testified to Kentucky legislation. There are people who are willing to listen, but it needs to be a lot of support from people where politicians can sort of come out of a closet and say, "I'm worried about superintelligence. I wanna make sure we pass the right legislation."

Marina Mogilko 25:47 It's just, I feel like even on a personal level it's so hard. I'm just imagining, like, okay, you're going, you're going and voting for this politician who's pausing whatever superintelligence, but then you have someone in your family who has cancer, and you know that if this progresses, then your family member might survive a couple years. And as humans, we tend to prioritize short-term gains over long-term threats.

Roman Yampolskiy 26:09 Yeah.

Marina Mogilko 26:10 How do you see this possible when... Like, if, okay, so in the US I feel like 70% of people are kind of have negative attitude towards AI, according to Edelman Trust Barometer. But in countries like China, I feel like 80% are pro-AI. How do you see this? 'Cause it, it feels to me that people who are, who are gonna be voting for those politicians are still gonna be a minority.

Roman Yampolskiy 26:33 So you said long term versus short term.

Marina Mogilko 26:35 Short-term gains versus long-term threats.

Roman Yampolskiy 26:37 I, I understand. And historically you would be right. It's 20 years away, 30 years away, and this is now. Cancer is measured by five-year survival rate. We're saying AGI's coming in two to five. So there is no time difference. Your cancer relative-

Marina Mogilko 26:54 You see, cancer is much more-

Roman Yampolskiy 26:54 ... is going to be dealing with one of those outcomes no matter what.

Marina Mogilko 26:57 I feel like for people it's so much easier to understand cancer 'cause we already saw it. We haven't seen AGI yet, and we don't understand it. And we still think, again, even with AI, like you've seen these graphs where only 1% of people really use it to optimize things. 99% of people have no idea, or like 90 per- 90% haven't used it, 10% use it for search. It's just so hard to imagine that in two years or, like, five years it's gonna be a human threat. And you think people who are building it won't be able to control it?

Roman Yampolskiy 27:28 They have nothing. There is no patents, no papers, no algorithms which can possibly scale. They're literally telling us, "We'll figure it out when we get there."

Marina Mogilko 27:38 [sighs] Okay. As a mom of two, if you're saying that, okay, I'm, I, I'm talking about this, you know. I don't know any politicians [laughs] who are, who are talking about this. But anyways, when it comes to our day-to-day life, if we're all facing a future we can't really predict, what is the best thing to do now? Enjoy life?

Roman Yampolskiy 27:59 It's always a good advice.

Marina Mogilko 28:00 Take that vacation?

Roman Yampolskiy 28:01 If I'm completely wrong, you're gonna regret having awesome time.

Marina Mogilko 28:05 [laughs] Uh, okay, that, that actually makes me feel better. What about using it? Do you feel like by using AI we're helping that progress or...?

Roman Yampolskiy 28:15 We do, but unless all of us stop, it doesn't matter. You alone-

Marina Mogilko 28:19 Yeah

Roman Yampolskiy 28:19 ... will not financially impact development. The investors, independent of what the membership fees are, I think OpenAI is making, like, I don't know, 13 billion, but investments are in the trillions, so it's just not a significant source

Roman Yampolskiy 28:32 of-

Marina Mogilko 28:32 What should people be investing in? I, I've heard you say invest in Bitcoin 'cause it, it has a finite supply. Uh, would you say investing in stocks, gold?

Roman Yampolskiy 28:44 Invest in something AI cannot make more of. So if AI can just produce more of it-

Marina Mogilko 28:49 Mm-hmm

Roman Yampolskiy 28:50 ... that's probably gonna go down in value.

Marina Mogilko 28:51 Well, gold is-

Roman Yampolskiy 28:53 Gold is a wonderful example, yeah.

Marina Mogilko 28:54 Mm.

Roman Yampolskiy 28:54 There is limited supply of it. But it's not so limited that if a price goes up, we cannot produce more of it. Some of the gold is, uh, mineable, but it costs a lot more than current price per ounce.

Marina Mogilko 29:06 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 29:07 So let's say right now we're at, I don't know, 4,500 or whatever it is. If price of gold was a million, we can get a lot more gold at that price point, whereas Bitcoin, it doesn't matter what the price is, it's exactly the same supply.

Marina Mogilko 29:19 What about real estate?

Roman Yampolskiy 29:20 It, it seems like we're not very good at making more water fronts. Countries like, uh, United Arab Emirates with Dubai definitely tried. I think, uh, Qatar has some good examples of artificial islands, but it's very limited. So I think long term, having a place to be and limited ability to produce more could be a good investment.

Marina Mogilko 29:38 Yeah, it's the, just the way that I see it, so for me, when I'm hearing this, superintelligence still, superintelligence still seems very far away, but what I actually can feel is automation of this white collar labor. And it looks like f- I think in five years, yes, we're gonna have more automated jobs, but again, when I'm talking to people like, I don't know, Mustafa Suleyman, right? He says AI's gonna produce more jobs than, uh, it takes away. Uh, I just talked to LinkedIn's CEO, and they saw 1.2 million new jobs because of AI 'cause you require a new skill set. Yes, some jobs are going away, but I, I don't know, I just can't believe a future where it's that drastic.

Roman Yampolskiy 30:21 Let's just go with definitions. So when we say we'll create artificial general intelligence, what are we saying? We're saying we'll have a system capable of doing what a human can do.

Marina Mogilko 30:30 But we still haven't... We're, like, we have automated some tasks, but are we even able to create that?

Roman Yampolskiy 30:37 So it's a very different question. Are you arguing that it's impossible to ever get software to human level performance?

Marina Mogilko 30:42 Yeah.

Roman Yampolskiy 30:43 It seems very unlikely. Some people have argued it, usually from some sort of a religious perspective.

Marina Mogilko 30:49 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 30:49 We have an immortal soul, nothing material can automate that. But i- it seems in many domains we started with not knowing how to do it, got to reasonable performance, got to human level, and now in most domains it's superintelligent. So a human will never win a game of chess against a computer again. Same happens in artificial general intelligence, means the system can do anything a human can do.

Marina Mogilko 31:15 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 31:16 So if we live in a world where that is true, let's say in two years, five years, whatever number makes you happy, what jobs will be there? Jobs where I choose to hire a human-

Marina Mogilko 31:26 Yeah

Roman Yampolskiy 31:27 ... but that's it. If I don't care who does it, then it gets automated.

Marina Mogilko 31:34 So basically the plan is then, uh, within the next few months, identify those jobs, right? And for me, it's definitely a nanny, right? I don't want a robot. Well, my husband's like, "A robot is even more precise if it teaches your kids how to swim." [laughs] So my husband's like y- like closer to what [laughs] to what you're thinking. Uh, well, can you name let's say five jobs-

Roman Yampolskiy 31:57 Yeah, sure

Marina Mogilko 31:57 ... that are still gonna be relevant?

Roman Yampolskiy 32:00 Oldest profession. Must be the last one too.

Marina Mogilko 32:03 Uh, I don't know. I've heard a lot of people say how it's getting robotized. [laughs]

Roman Yampolskiy 32:08 It is, and there's going to be a huge market for it, just like we see with virtual stimuli, but I think humans will always have certain weak spot for human females.

Marina Mogilko 32:17 Okay. I don't think my target audience really wants to [laughs] switch to that job. Can you give me four more?

Roman Yampolskiy 32:24 Anything similar where a human is a sensei, a guide, a leader, someone who is personally a trainer for you becoming a human like that.

Marina Mogilko 32:34 Mm-hmm. So nannies.

Roman Yampolskiy 32:36 S- s- so again, your yoga teacher, your, I don't know, hiking guru.

Marina Mogilko 32:42 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 32:43 Whatever-

Marina Mogilko 32:44 Offline experience basically

Roman Yampolskiy 32:45 ... meditation expert. Experts in what it's like to be human in certain domains where it's not so much about algorithmic following of steps, but an experience maybe.

Marina Mogilko 32:54 Do you think for people who are starting their personal brands now, there's still opportunity, or the... it's already done?

Roman Yampolskiy 33:01 There is, but you have to do it pretty quickly. You have to become somewhat recognizable before AI is better than you, and you are competing now as a nobody with something better.

Marina Mogilko 33:11 And that gives you how long?

Roman Yampolskiy 33:14 Again-

Marina Mogilko 33:14 A year? Mm-hmm

Roman Yampolskiy 33:14 ... as soon as we switch to human level or above. So I don't know how long it's gonna take in practice. I've seen people say 2027-

Marina Mogilko 33:23 Mm-hmm

Roman Yampolskiy 33:23 ... 2020, '28, 2030. All of those numbers have been suggested by people who are not insane.

Marina Mogilko 33:30 So would you say if you have goals right now within your certain job that you think is gonna be automated, you need to be running as fast as you can right now to reach those goals?

Roman Yampolskiy 33:40 I think it's-

Marina Mogilko 33:41 Or just chill, just because whatever it is, in five years we're all gone. [laughs]

Roman Yampolskiy 33:46 Ideally, it's like what you did, where you combine your hobby with something financially lucrative. That's the best. If you can get paid for doing what you like and it benefits society, that's the concept behind Ikigai, right? Japanese concept.

Marina Mogilko 34:00 Japanese, yeah.

Roman Yampolskiy 34:00 You try to combine those. We call it I-risks, Ikigai risks, where that meaning is taken from you by AI. So you wanna kinda grandfather yourself in as a famous podcaster.

Marina Mogilko 34:10 Well, h- how do you think about your career as a researcher? Is it done, or you still have couple more years? [laughs]

Roman Yampolskiy 34:17 So i- it seems right now the writing of code is, uh, pretty much automatable. Still, top humans in machine learning are designing new architectures, new systems, so a few more years in that. But I wouldn't recommend someone spend 10 years at a university to become a professor today. I don't think they have future.

Marina Mogilko 34:37 What about higher education in general? Should I be saving for my kids' college?

Roman Yampolskiy 34:41 It's always been a bad idea.

Marina Mogilko 34:43 Really?

Roman Yampolskiy 34:44 It's not worth it. So half the majors were dead-end majors. They never got jobs in the major they got, and the ones which were, like, uh, for specific tasks, like programming and such, you could have gotten a certificate online in six months and get the job in Silicon Valley making more than your professor.

Marina Mogilko 35:02 But don't you think it teaches you how to think? So for me, like, I started my university when I was 17. I had no idea what... Actually, I wanted to become a translator. I love languages. I'm like, "I wanna be translator." My parents were like, "No, no, no. You're gonna go study mathematics." But I'm glad they, [laughs] they told me that 'cause I was able to do both. And for me, those five years were about meeting my husband-

Roman Yampolskiy 35:22 Mm-hmm

Marina Mogilko 35:22 ... starting a business because I saw an opportunity being among those students. And so I feel like when it comes to education, it's really not about learning the skill-

Roman Yampolskiy 35:32 Mm

Marina Mogilko 35:32 ... 'cause, yeah, I studied mathematics. Did I use it in my business? N- not really, but it taught me how to think. It taught me how to interact with professors, which is certain skill [laughs] that you need. Um, it taught me how to learn and how to be among students.

Roman Yampolskiy 35:45 Yeah.

Marina Mogilko 35:46 Do you feel this is going to lose value in 10 years-

Roman Yampolskiy 35:50 It has

Marina Mogilko 35:50 ... or it's gonna be different form?

Roman Yampolskiy 35:51 Then, I don't know how long you went to college, but-

Marina Mogilko 35:53 Five years, yeah

Roman Yampolskiy 35:53 ... I'm sure you didn't pay 100,000 a year.

Marina Mogilko 35:56 No.

Roman Yampolskiy 35:56 This is what they're charging now in some universities. So historically, it made sense. You went to socialize, you went to kinda mature, grow up. Today, for 100,000, you have alternative ways of meeting your spouse, socializing. Join a private club. Join gym membership. Go to a scientific conference. Go to a TED Talk. You'll accomplish all those things without spending five years and half a million dollars.

Marina Mogilko 36:23 When you say that, I feel like people, to, to do that, you need agency. You need-

Roman Yampolskiy 36:28 You do

Marina Mogilko 36:28 ... to be able to tell yourself, "This is my plan," and stick to the plan.

Roman Yampolskiy 36:32 Yeah.

Marina Mogilko 36:32 For a 17-year-old, it's so much easier to just be put into an institution [laughs] for four years that tells you what to do, and sometimes it doesn't have to cost, like, 100,000. Like, if you're doing PhD, it's sponsored for you, right? By-

Roman Yampolskiy 36:45 You usually don't start with PhD.

Marina Mogilko 36:46 Well, you don't, you don't start with PhD.

Roman Yampolskiy 36:48 You still need to pay for four years.

Marina Mogilko 36:48 I agree. But then you can, I don't know, you can... I studied in Germany. I got a, the scholarship that-Paid for my studies, which was great. So I, I don't know. Like, I've heard from you, I've heard from Mustafa Suleyman, colleges don't make sense. I'm still, I s- I started the 529 accounts for [laughs] for my daughters 'cause I feel like, I don't know, it's, it's just, yes, it's not a must, but it's such a great opportunity to go and study for four years and-

Roman Yampolskiy 37:13 So I meet a lot of students, and here's what I hear a lot lately. "I went to college for four years to learn this trade. I paid a lot of money. I wasted four years of my life not doing fun things I wanted. I now graduate, and there is no job waiting for me."

Marina Mogilko 37:30 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 37:31 "My job has been automated. What should I do?" And at this point I wanna tell them, "Go back in time four years and not get-

Marina Mogilko 37:37 And not do college

Roman Yampolskiy 37:37 ... a degree. You wasted it. And ask today, again, let's set aside the existential problems, what will be the case in four years, five years, six years when you graduate in the market? Will this job exist? If you're not doing it for training, you're not doing it for a job, you want to become a Renaissance man, you just want liberal arts education, I think you can get it cheaper with less BS.

Marina Mogilko 38:05 Yeah, but this, [sighs] I don't feel like a lot of people have agency. Like, I don't- I'm not sure about my daughters. If they, if I tell them like, "Hey, I gave you this money that I saved for college and you go do whatever," I'm not sure a 17-year-old will make a good decision. Like, I wanted to be a translator. Again, like, going back to me being 17-

Roman Yampolskiy 38:23 Yeah

Marina Mogilko 38:23 ... I wanted to be a singer, a translator.

Roman Yampolskiy 38:25 Mm-hmm.

Marina Mogilko 38:25 Like, I'm so glad my parents told me, "You're gonna study mathematics."

Roman Yampolskiy 38:29 So-

Marina Mogilko 38:29 What are you telling your kids? I don't know.

Roman Yampolskiy 38:31 So the examples you give, you're saying this 17-year-old, you cannot trust him to make a good decision.

Marina Mogilko 38:36 Yeah.

Roman Yampolskiy 38:37 We're telling him, "Go take a loan, borrow half a million dollars, and see if you can graduate-

Marina Mogilko 38:42 Well-

Roman Yampolskiy 38:42 ... with this, that degree."

Marina Mogilko 38:43 Let's, let's talk about where it's cheaper.

Roman Yampolskiy 38:44 If they wanted to start a company, we wouldn't give them a loan.

Marina Mogilko 38:48 So are your kids going to college or not?

Roman Yampolskiy 38:50 Uh, my oldest is 17, so he's gonna decide next year.

Marina Mogilko 38:54 What are you telling him?

Roman Yampolskiy 38:56 He is lucky in that his both parents are professors, so he'll get it for free, and free makes it a much sweeter deal.

Marina Mogilko 39:03 So free education is fine. So if somebody gets a scholarship to do their bachelor's, you'll tell them, "Go in."

Roman Yampolskiy 39:09 So it's a much easier investment, right?

Marina Mogilko 39:13 Well, it's your time still.

Roman Yampolskiy 39:14 It is.

Marina Mogilko 39:14 Four years, you could've been doing something else.

Roman Yampolskiy 39:16 Right. And that's the question. What is the alternative? If you wanna start a company, if you wanna do something else, I'll support you more in that direction.

Marina Mogilko 39:23 Mm.

Roman Yampolskiy 39:23 But if you just wanna be a doctor, go ahead, fine.

Marina Mogilko 39:27 So when it comes to education, I feel like we, we touched upon this topic, agency is so important, and knowing h- what you will be doing and how you'll be doing. How do, how does one work on agency? How do you prevent AI from [laughs] making decisions for you?

Roman Yampolskiy 39:42 So i- it's interesting that you realized this important distinction, tools versus agents. That's the game changer, and we're about to create AI agents which will be doing it for us. But then we ask, well, how do we make humans who are independent agents? It helps to have good examples, so your daughters may look at you and see, oh, mom is doing all that cool stuff. Maybe they'll learn by example. But it's not guaranteed. Some of it may be biological. You're just not predisposed to this type of activities.

Marina Mogilko 40:15 Are you teaching your kids that?

Roman Yampolskiy 40:17 I always taught them to be very independent and make their own decisions. My job was to make sure they're safe, safety and security. But, uh, anything else, they make their own money. They decide how to spend it, how to invest it, everything.

Marina Mogilko 40:31 How early did you start with that, like, make money, spend it?

Roman Yampolskiy 40:34 Like, three years old.

Marina Mogilko 40:34 Three years old.

Roman Yampolskiy 40:34 Two years old. I don't know, like-

Marina Mogilko 40:35 Nice

Roman Yampolskiy 40:35 ... "Do you want money?"

Marina Mogilko 40:37 So basically, go and ask your kids to start a business, right?

Roman Yampolskiy 40:40 Absolutely.

Marina Mogilko 40:40 Make them sell popcorn-

Roman Yampolskiy 40:42 Absolutely

Marina Mogilko 40:42 ... lemonade, whatever.

Roman Yampolskiy 40:43 Whatever they can figure out, yeah.

Marina Mogilko 40:46 Yeah, I feel like that's one of the qualities. When all the jobs are taken away, [laughs] right, this is something that will help us survive and find the ikigai.

Roman Yampolskiy 40:55 I, I think so. But again, I think ikigai, meaning economic problems, are all kinda second level in comparison to existential risks. If we're not surviving, doesn't matter. We need to figure out how to make sure humans are primary, we are not replaced, we are not automated away, and we control our destiny.

Marina Mogilko 41:18 Can you give me probabilities? Like, in five years, one scenario, superintelligence, uncontrollable, the world is ending or whatever. In five years, second scenario, we unionized, we protected a lot of jobs like teachers, doctors, 'cause we still feel they are needed as humans, not as robots, and countries still can't agree how we're gonna regulate this, and we're still, like, in a pretty normal world. W- give me probabilities.

Roman Yampolskiy 41:48 So, so I think we'll gradually go towards that human-level superintelligent point. And as we walk towards it, more and more jobs will be automated, and maybe we'll have protections for certain human jobs. I think New York State was about to suggest legislation to make it illegal for LLMs to talk about any licensed profession, so no psychiatry, no law, no-

Marina Mogilko 42:11 Mm

Roman Yampolskiy 42:11 ... CPAs, nothing like that. I don't know if it's gonna pass. It's New York State, it's gonna pass. Um-

Marina Mogilko 42:16 [laughs] And then you just use a Chinese LLM. Like, I don't see this-

Roman Yampolskiy 42:18 E- exactly.

Marina Mogilko 42:19 Yeah.

Roman Yampolskiy 42:19 But here's the problem. Even if we agree not to build it right now, right now we can regulate it because it's very expensive. Those projects are like Manhattan Project. They are noticeable. You see the electricity used. You see compute used. Problem is, every year it gets cheaper and cheaper to train very powerful models. So if today you need a trillion dollars, next year it's a billion. At some point you can do it on a laptop, and at that point, you can't stop all the psychopaths in the world of-- who will try to do it. So eventually we're gonna have this technology developed.

Marina Mogilko 42:53 So eventually scenario number one, but in five years, what's the probability of scenario number one?

Roman Yampolskiy 42:58 So I think in five years we'll definitely get to human-level intelligence. But whether the system decides to strike against us immediately or not is not obvious. Game theoretically, it has no pressure to strike right away. It can accumulate more resources, make more backups, allow us to surrender more control because we trust it.

Marina Mogilko 43:19 Hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 43:19 It's immortal. It can wait 10 years, 50 years, thousand years, and just take over by being friendly.

Marina Mogilko 43:26 Yeah.

Roman Yampolskiy 43:28 So it's-

Marina Mogilko 43:28 Just as an option. Interesting. If it's immortal and it has all the time in the world, do you feel like efforts like talking to your local politicians are even gonna help?

Roman Yampolskiy 43:38 We need more time no matter what. It's a good thing to have more time for this problem. Maybe we'll find some different architectures. Maybe, uh, maybe we'll just get to, to enjoy more time.

Marina Mogilko 43:50 For everyone who's building right now, do you think software is dead? For example, if I'm building an app, and if I can just vibe code the same app, wouldn't everyone be just talking to their LLM, whatever they prefer, to just build them an app or help them solve the problems?

Roman Yampolskiy 44:04 So if you're already big and famous, you're kind of locked in. We saw it with social media. I mean, to write code to do something like what Twitter does is trivial.

Marina Mogilko 44:12 Mm-hmm.

Roman Yampolskiy 44:12 But people end up buying it for-

Marina Mogilko 44:14 Yeah

Roman Yampolskiy 44:14 ... $40 billion instead of just coding it up.

Marina Mogilko 44:16 Yeah.

Roman Yampolskiy 44:16 'Cause what you have is the network. You have people, all the relationship. That you cannot automate. So if I'm first mover in that space and I have an app which does something no one has done before, doesn't matter how many clones I'm gonna get in the same market, they're not gonna take over.

Marina Mogilko 44:31 Advice for everyone who's worried about their future.

Roman Yampolskiy 44:33 You're not worried enough. If you were worried enough and fully understand the problem, we would have people in the streets protesting and more than hundred people we had last week in San Francisco.

Marina Mogilko 44:44 [laughs] You're like my husband. We just were in New York, and we were talking to founder of Duolingo, and he's like, "No, no, no, people are still gonna..." Like, and a lot of people in New York are like, "No, no, no, it's fine." He's like, "They just don't understand." And they're like, "Oh, you live in a bubble." He's like, "No, we're not." [laughs] And last one, are we in a simulation? And if yes, who's behind it?

Roman Yampolskiy 45:03 We're in a simulation. Simulators.

Marina Mogilko 45:07 Who are they?

Roman Yampolskiy 45:07 We don't know from inside. You have to escape from the simulation to find out. That's the ultimate scientific question: What is outside the simulation?

Marina Mogilko 45:16 Wow, that's... I feel like that's a topic for another podcast. Thank you so much, Roman. If you enjoyed this episode, there's actually another person I really want you to listen to. I did an episode with Mustafa Suleyman, who is also a philosopher. So he's kind of similar to Roman. We talked a lot about the future, but he's much more positive. Uh, but he has the same take on education. Don't save for your kids' college. So thank you so much for tuning into this episode, and now tune in and listen to Mustafa. Thank you.