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CEO of Microsoft AI:The Next 10 Years Will Change Humanity Forever

📌 Download the FREE database of 100+ industry-level AI use cases and find tools your competitors aren’t using yet: https://clickhubspot.com/dc23ea In this episode of Silicon Valley Girl, Marina Mogilko sits down with Mustafa Suleyman, CEO of Microsoft AI and co-founder of DeepMind, to explore how AI is reshaping the future of work, education, and everyday life. Mustafa has spent the last decade building the systems that sparked the modern AI revolution. Today, he’s leading Microsoft AI and shaping how billions of people will interact with intelligent agents in the coming years. From the race toward AGI to the rise of AI assistants that remember everything, Mustafa offers a rare inside look at where the next decade is heading. He shares why routine work is disappearing, what jobs will matter most, whether children will even need college, and how superintelligent systems could change the rhythm of a normal day. This conversation is a clear, grounded roadmap to the future — and to the skills we’ll all need to stay ahead. 🔗 Follow Mustafa on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mustafasuleymanai 00:00 — Teaser 1:20 — Are we in an AI bubble? 3:14 — Is AI becoming conscious? 5:15 — Kids forming relationships with AI: how to prevent it 7:00 — Will we reach AGI by 2030? 7:33 — What AI already does better than humans 8:05 — The future of work: humans and AI agents 8:30 — How AI is changing work — and creating unbelievable competition 11:00 — Get FREE: 100+ creative AI use cases for your work 12:08 — Imagine superintelligence: what would a normal day look like? 13:50 — Imagine it’s 2040: how will your kitchen look? How AI will reshape everyday life 16:37 — Markets and investors: what to focus on to stay ahead 17:18 — Copilot and education: why 40% of student queries are health-related 19:05 — What will happen to traditional education? How AI will change learning 20:56 — Should you still be saving for your kid’s college? 23:00 — What skills should we actually learn today? 23:49 — Do you need to be technical to build a career in tech? Mustafa’s story 25:14 — The “memory” feature: when AI remembers everything 26:30 — If AI remembers everything, what happens to our brains? 28:35 — Are we getting dumber with AI? 29:17 — Killer AI features people underuse — that actually save time 30:39 — Mustafa’s favorite use case of AI 31:25 — Should we be worried AI knows so much about us? 32:00 — Work automated by AI: why it’s not an AI problem but a human one 34:22 — How to adapt to the speed of AI progress — and could something like this happen again? 35:38 — In 25 years: massive structural unemployment? 37:11 — Who will lead the future — governments or Big Tech? 38:00 — “The Coming Wave”: what’s changed since the book and why Mustafa didn’t expect this speed 40:35 — Where all this is leading us in the next few years Links: 📩 Follow my Newsletter: https://siliconvalleygirl.beehiiv.com/ 🔗 My Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/siliconvalleygirl/ 📌 My Companies & Products: https://Marinamogilko.co 📹 Video brainstorming, research, and project planning - all in one place - https://partner.spotterstudio.com/ideas-with-marina 💻 Resources that helps my team and me grow the business: - Email & SMS Marketing Automation - https://your.omnisend.com/marina - AI app to work with docs and PDFs - https://www.chatpdf.com/?via=marina 📱Develop your YouTube with AI apps: - AI tool to edit videos in a minutes https://get.descript.com/fa2pjk0ylj0d - Boost your view and subscribers on YouTube - https://vidiq.com/marina - #1 AI video clipping tool - https://www.opus.pro/?via=7925d2 💰 Investment Apps: - Top credit cards for free flights, hotels, and cash-back - https://www.cardonomics.com/i/marina - Intuitive platform for stocks, options, and ETFs - https://a.webull.com/Tfjov8wp37ijU849f8 ⭐ Download my English language workbook - https://bit.ly/3hH7xFm I use affiliate links whenever possible (if you purchase items listed above using my affiliate links, I will get a bonus). #siliconvalleygirl #podcast #mustafasuleyman

Marina MogilkohostMustafa Suleymanguest
Nov 14, 202541mWatch on YouTube ↗

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  1. 0:00 – 1:20

    Teaser

    1. MM

      Are we in an AI bubble?

    2. MS

      Uh-

    3. MM

      This is Mustafa Suleyman, co-founder of DeepMind, one of the first companies to teach machines how to think. Today, he leads Microsoft AI, one of the Magnificent Seven shaping the future of our world.

    4. MS

      It's the smartest, most capable technology we've ever invented. It's improving faster than anything we've ever seen, and it's very important that we keep reminding ourselves of that. Like, in twenty-five years' time, a large portion of the population are gonna struggle to compete in the workplace with AI.

    5. MM

      But with that power comes a question none of us can ignore, because the same intelligence that builds our future could also rewrite what it means to be human.

    6. MS

      These things don't suffer. They don't feel pain. They're just simulating high-quality conversation, so we've got to be very careful about that.

    7. MM

      AI isn't just learning, it's starting to live with us.

    8. MS

      Your personal AI is just gonna have ambient awareness of what you're trying to do and talk to you in real time. It is gonna remember everything in the future and be perfect if you choose for it to do that.

    9. MM

      So if it remembers everything, what's gonna happen to our brains?

    10. MS

      Um-

    11. MM

      They don't sleep, they don't forget, they don't feel, but they're learning faster than we ever imagined. So the real question is, what happens to us next? This video is sponsored by HubSpot.

  2. 1:20 – 3:14

    Are we in an AI bubble?

    1. MM

      Mustafa, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

    2. MS

      Thanks for having me.

    3. MM

      The first question, everyone's talking about it on YouTube right now: Are we in an AI bubble?

    4. MS

      Uh, yes. So, no, we're not. [chuckles] I don't think so.

    5. MM

      You don't think so?

    6. MS

      I don't think so. I think, um, when you kind of think about it, we are creating something that is truly magical. Um, intelligence is the thing that has made us successful as a species. Um, and we're now distilling that into a smaller and smaller unit, um, that can be spread all over the world, and that is gonna be cheap and widely abundant. So that's just a remarkable thought. Like-

    7. MM

      Yeah, but we kind of had the same thought, you know, during dot-com crash, like, "We're inventing internet," blah, blah, blah. But there are some companies that, you know, their valuations are much higher than their revenues. And, like, everyone's talking about NVIDIA investing, and then that revenue going back to NVIDIA. What do you think about that?

    8. MS

      Yeah. No, I, I, I think the value that we're gonna produce in the next five to ten years is gonna be unprecedented.

    9. MM

      So you don't think we're gonna experience something like, you know, 2008, COVID?

    10. MS

      I mean, who knows? But-

    11. MM

      Yeah

    12. MS

      ... I, I think if you think, just focus on the fundamental value that's being created, this is the best prediction engine anyone's ever seen. It's the smartest, most capable technology we've ever invented. It's improving faster than anything we've ever seen. It has got more easy to shape and control, not less. Three years ago, we thought that it was gonna get more chaotic and more disorganized, that we weren't gonna be able to sculpt it, and now we're producing beautiful, powerful, amazing experiences that are surprising us every month. So yeah, no, I, I'm genuinely very bullish.

    13. MM

      Okay, so you're not worried. You're good-

    14. MS

      Yeah

    15. MM

      ... and we shouldn't be worried.

    16. MS

      Yeah.

    17. MM

      Okay, that, that makes me feel better. Okay, let's talk

  3. 3:14 – 5:15

    Is AI becoming conscious?

    1. MM

      about AI becoming more conscious. Uh, you talked about it in one of the podcasts that we, we perceive AI more and more as human.

    2. MS

      Yeah.

    3. MM

      Uh, how fast is it happening? What's gonna happen in the next few years?

    4. MS

      It, it is getting more human-like. Um, it's getting more accurate, it's getting more fluid, more smooth, and that is unprecedented. At the same time, it's definitely not conscious. Um, it isn't aware of itself. It can't speak about itself. It... You know, it's very different to what it's like for a human to have a subjective experience and to feel pain and suffering, and it's very important that we keep reminding ourselves of that, because consciousness is the basis of our rights-based framework, and it is the thing that gives us responsibilities as citizens in societies, that allows us to vote, which allows us to be subject to the law, which creates order. Like, you know, we can't begin to attribute this quality to a new species. That would be terrible for our species [chuckles] uh-

    5. MM

      Yeah, but we still heard stories of Google... the story that you told in your book-

    6. MS

      Yeah

    7. MM

      ... of Google engineer who was convinced by AI that it was experiencing sadness, and it was afraid of being shut down.

    8. MS

      True, true. Yeah, and that was an anthropomorphic projection.

    9. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MS

      People- You know, just because it has some human qualities, doesn't mean it has all of human qualities, including subjective experience. And I think we can prove that it doesn't have subjective experience, that it isn't going to emerge this kind of self-awareness. That's just a sci-fi fantasy. And I understand why people sometimes go there, because we've been schooled on sci-fi for as long as forever, and it's a natural assumption to make. But these things don't suffer.

    11. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MS

      They don't feel pain. They're just simulating high-quality conversation, and that is magical, and it feels amazing, but that doesn't mean that it is something- it feels something internally to be one of these models. So we've got to be very careful about that.

  4. 5:15 – 7:00

    Kids forming relationships with AI: how to prevent it

    1. MM

      Some people talk about our kids having real relationships with AIs in ten years-

    2. MS

      Yeah

    3. MM

      ... like getting married to AIs. Do you think it's something that could potentially happen? And if yes, how can we prevent that?

    4. MS

      I think the history of the human condition proves to us that if it's possible, someone will probably do it. You know, people do crazy things, but the majority of people don't. [chuckles] The majority of people are pretty sound of mind and pretty sensible and just wanna live healthy, happy lives. And so if some people choose to marry their AI in twenty years' time, I'm not gonna kind of sit here and necessarily judge that or say-

    5. MM

      [chuckles]

    6. MS

      ... "Don't do it," or, "Do do it." If you ask me my opinion, I don't think that these should be treated as entities that are of equal moral significance to humans. I think that they should be in service of humans. They should work for us.... That's why we invent technology. You know, I love the technology behind this microphone, 'cause it amplifies our voices and distributes them to millions of people on the internet. That is a technology that is in service of humanity that's doing good.

    7. MM

      Yeah.

    8. MS

      That's what we want. And I don't necessarily think that, um, you know, these are- an idea of superintelligence that is autonomous, that can self-improve, that can set its own goals, that can act independently of humans, that, to me, doesn't feel like a positive vision of the future. Uh, it would be very hard to contain-

    9. MM

      Mm

    10. MS

      ... something like that or align it to our values, and so that should be the anti-goal. That's not what we're trying to build.

    11. MM

      Yeah.

    12. MS

      In my opinion, we're trying to build a humanist superintelligence, one that is aligned to our interests, on our team, in our corner, backing us up. That's the great project that we're engaged in at Microsoft with Copilot.

    13. MM

      But then again, a

  5. 7:00 – 7:33

    Will we reach AGI by 2030?

    1. MM

      lot of people are talking about AGI. Is that similar to su- superintelligence, or how would you define both of those?

    2. MS

      Yeah, you can think of-

    3. MM

      Yeah

    4. MS

      ... AGI as a step before, maybe, superintelligence.

    5. MM

      Mm.

    6. MS

      But roughly speaking, they're fairly... Yeah, used fairly interchangeably.

    7. MM

      Because Demis, your ex-co-founder, mentioned-

    8. MS

      Yeah

    9. MM

      ... we could achieve it by 2030. Can you talk about what it means for society?

    10. MS

      Yeah, I mean, I, I think achieving human-level performance at most tasks, I wouldn't say all knowledge tasks, um, that feels quite likely in the next five years. I think it's a fairly grounded, uh, prediction.

  6. 7:33 – 8:05

    What AI already does better than humans

    1. MS

      You know, if you think about it, these models already do many tasks better than a human. I mean, you know, summarization, translation, transcription, uh, research, document writing, maybe even arguably poetry or some parts of literature or whatever. So you can see that they're taking steps towards being as good as a human at being a project manager or being a marketing person or an HR person or having a tough conversation with somebody about a diagnosis for a medical condition they have. So it is gonna fundamentally

  7. 8:05 – 8:30

    The future of work: humans and AI agents

    1. MS

      change work in the most profound way. It's gonna change the type of work that we do.

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. MS

      You know, 10 years ago, it wasn't possible for you to do the job that you're now doing, but with streaming content, you don't need a big team around you. You don't need to be part of a big institution. So we've democratized access to the power of broadcast-

    4. MM

      Mm-hmm

    5. MS

      ... with the arrival of the internet and streaming and podcasting. That's amazing.

  8. 8:30 – 11:00

    How AI is changing work — and creating unbelievable competition

    1. MS

      Now, with these models, we're democratizing access to intelligence. So you don't have to be a really privileged, wealthy, educated person that has access to capital to be able to found a company, to hire a great team. You're gonna have a team of intelligences around you that are the best lawyer, the best doctor, the best teacher, the best project manager, and that is gonna create unbelievable amounts of competition, because the distance between an idea and the realization of that idea is gonna collapse. That's an amazing thought.

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. MS

      People are just gonna be thinking new companies into existence, new products, new pieces of poetry.

    4. MM

      But-

    5. MS

      That's amazing

    6. MM

      ... you said people. You said people, like, my-

    7. MS

      People, as in-

    8. MM

      ... my, my concern-

    9. MS

      You and me.

    10. MM

      Yeah, yeah.

    11. MS

      Like, you're gonna have an agent around you that is gonna be able to execute on that idea.

    12. MM

      You know what my concern is-

    13. MS

      You're just gonna get it done

    14. MM

      ... with superintelligence? That AI is gonna come up with ideas. 'Cause, like, why would it need... Like, why do we need to come up with ideas if AI has all the information? If we're talking about a marketing business, for example, it can identify gaps in the market, come up with a website, launch the ads, do the business.

    15. MS

      Yeah.

    16. MM

      Do you think that might happen?

    17. MS

      Oh, it will definitely happen. It'll definitely happen. You're gonna have a team of agents around you that can do more and more of the tasks, and arguably do them autonomously, but that comes back to what we were saying before about containment. Containment is the project of making sure that these AIs have limited scope and check in with you and are accountable to you and are working on your behalf. And so the creative challenge for technologists is to say, "What are the limitations? What are the guardrails? What can it not do? When does it have to seek your approval for an autonomous action?" And, you know, we've, we've done this many times in past moments of technology, right? We invented the combustion engine almost a century ago, and that, over time, became cars and trucks and so on and so forth. But the amount of regulation that we put around those vehicles to make them work for us in service of humanity, it's unbelievable, right? Seat belts and vehicle emissions and streetlights and freeways and speed limits and driver education. There's so many different components that go into that.

    18. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    19. MS

      And I think this is gonna be no different. We're gonna have to figure out what are all the regulations and guardrails that go into managing, you know, autonomous agents so that they always work

  9. 11:00 – 12:08

    Get FREE: 100+ creative AI use cases for your work

    1. MS

      for us.

    2. MM

      [whooshing sound] Let me quickly pause here. If all of it sounds exciting but also a bit overwhelming, you're gonna love this. HubSpot for Startups just dropped a free database called 100+ Creative AI Use Cases Beyond Cold Outreach. It's a collection of real, unconventional ways companies across 30 industries, [whooshing sound] from real estate and healthcare to e-commerce and manufacturing, are using AI to solve problems in completely new ways. The truth is, the companies that will dominate in the next decade won't be using AI for the obvious stuff. They'll be the ones finding creative applications that give them a real edge, and your next breakthrough might actually be hiding in this list. You'll get implementation guidance, difficulty levels, and the exact tools you need to turn ideas into action. Use it to streamline operations, discover new revenue streams, or uncover advantages your competitors haven't even seen yet. You can access it for free and start building your competitive edge today. Link, as always, in the description. Big thanks to HubSpot for Startups for sponsoring this video.... [screen whooshes] Let's

  10. 12:08 – 13:50

    Imagine superintelligence: what would a normal day look like?

    1. MM

      imagine superintelligence. What does my day [chuckles] look like then? If AI is capable of so many things, what is this thing that is very specific to humans and is gonna stay with humans?

    2. MS

      Yeah, I think that great technology helps you get bad technology out the way, and that's the test. Like, it is kind of annoying to use a graphical user interface today on your desktop. If you think about it, if you just take a step back, you go to your computer, and you've got all these windows with different colors, and different brands, and different menus, and information hierarchies, and different settings, and you have to learn each app for its own sake. And we don't think of it as advertising, but when you open your computer, you kindly have a bill- you kind of have a billboard of all these different-

    3. MM

      Yeah

    4. MS

      ... competing apps that are like, "Use me, try me, do..." It's kind of distracting, it's kind of ugly. I just want to be able to turn to my AI and be like, "I need this task done. Solve it for me, buy it for me, book it for me, create it. Check in with me at the right time, get my permission, you know, get my feedback, brainstorm with me," whatever it is. But you're gonna start to see the operating system, the browser, the search engine, the apps, all of these are gonna slip away-

    5. MM

      Mm

    6. MS

      ... as your personal humanist superintelligence takes over a lot of the day-to-day work of browsing, searching, planning, booking, thinking, et cetera.

    7. MM

      So it's no longer gonna be a computer, you think?

    8. MS

      Yeah. I mean, [sighs] less and less. Um, I think we'll have different kinds of devices, like tablets, wearables. It'll be much more ambient in five to 10 years.

    9. MM

      [screen whooshes] Imagine

  11. 13:50 – 16:37

    Imagine it’s 2040: how will your kitchen look? How AI will reshape everyday life

    1. MM

      it's 2040-

    2. MS

      Okay

    3. MM

      ... and we're in this kitchen. What things are obsolete, they don't exist anymore, and what do I have to make my life easier-

    4. MS

      Okay

    5. MM

      ... with AI?

    6. MS

      So I think there will probably be some kind of household robotic arm. Probably... I don't know if it'll be a humanoid walking around, but certainly you would have a, a mounted system on your, on your, uh, on your counter.

    7. MM

      Here, cooking? [chuckles]

    8. MS

      I think it... Yeah. It will learn to use all the different appliances, so probably you would l- have many of the similar appliances that you've got today, but the AI is just gonna learn to use them in the way that you would use them. I think some people imagine that the entire thing is gonna look totally different to suit the AI, but actually, it's not. Like, the robot is just gonna learn to do the things that you do in the way-

    9. MM

      Yeah

    10. MS

      ... that you do it. So you're still gonna want to use a kettle. I mean, that kettle is, you know, hundreds of years old. We've been, you know-

    11. MM

      Yeah

    12. MS

      ... making cups and handles like that in the same way. So I think that stuff will remain the same.

    13. MM

      So the hand or, or a humanoid, what are you leaning towards?

    14. MS

      I think the, the, the hum- I mean, 15 years is a pretty long way out, so it probably will be humanoid. But I think the challenge with humanoid is, like, the physical- the risk of it being physically in your space. I think it's got to be very, very accurate, and very reliable, and handling hot things around children and-

    15. MM

      Mm-hmm

    16. MS

      ... the elderly, and you can-

    17. MM

      Yeah

    18. MS

      ... imagine all kinds of complications. So I think it would be technically feasible. It would just be a, a bit of an adjustment to-

    19. MM

      Okay

    20. MS

      ... people get comfortable with it.

    21. MM

      What about devices? Do you think I'm gonna have, like, I don't know, an AI projector, uh, and, like, tap on the air [chuckles] as it... and, and get instructions on how to cook things, or is it gonna be glasses?

    22. MS

      I think that you're gonna just have it in your ear. So I think that-

    23. MM

      Mm

    24. MS

      ... you know, your AI is- like, your personal AI is just gonna have ambient awareness of what you're trying to do and talk to you in real time. So-

    25. MM

      So it will have a camera-

    26. MS

      Mm-hmm

    27. MM

      ... in my ear?

    28. MS

      Yeah.

    29. MM

      And it will... Oh.

    30. MS

      Yeah.

  12. 16:37 – 17:18

    Markets and investors: what to focus on to stay ahead

    1. MS

      car.

    2. MM

      [screen whooshes] Are there any markets where you think people should be paid- paying attention to if they want to stay ahead in this AI race? What are the most exciting markets?

    3. MS

      I think by far the most exciting new market is medicine.

    4. MM

      Mm.

    5. MS

      Um, I think at the moment, the quality difference between the top 10% and the bottom 10%, even in the United States, let alone rest of the world, is, is unbelievable. The gulf is, like, um, probably an order of magnitude. It's huge.

    6. MM

      Yeah.

    7. MS

      Um, and again, that's gonna completely collapse because everybody is gonna have access to medical superintelligence, and it'll cost 20 bucks a month. Like, it is gonna be remarkably cheap. Um-

    8. MM

      And talk to me

  13. 17:18 – 19:05

    Copilot and education: why 40% of student queries are health-related

    1. MM

      what- about what you just released. Harvard-backed-

    2. MS

      Yeah

    3. MM

      ... research, right? Within Copilot, if I ask a medical question, how is it gonna work?

    4. MS

      Exactly. So now, I mean, we find that, like, about 40% of our queries each week are health-related.

    5. MM

      40%?

    6. MS

      Yeah, four zeros. Pretty remarkable.

    7. MM

      Wow.

    8. MS

      Like, millions of people a day-

    9. MM

      Wow

    10. MS

      ... are asking health-related queries. So we decided to really focus on improving the quality of the health answers. And part of doing that is that we ground the answers in citations from-

    11. MM

      Mm

    12. MS

      ... Harvard Medical, which is an amazing kind of gift to the world, like, the most respected health institution.

    13. MM

      100%.

    14. MS

      Um, and we also do the NHS in the UK, and we'll be doing other health systems over time. And so people now get really high-quality, very reliable, you know, pretty accurate... Like, sometimes it makes mistakes. It's not- you can't rely on it yet. You always have to go see a doctor, et cetera. But if you think about it, most of the time-... in a healthcare situation, people are trying to make sense of a complicated technical set of language that they don't really understand. They're probably anxious or worried, so they want to repeat things lots of times, they want to get it explained in a very simple way, and sometimes they want help actually making a decision about who to go see. So we also now have recommendations for physicians.

    15. MM

      Oh.

    16. MS

      You could go see a doctor, you could see a dermatologist, you could see a physio, and we will find someone that fits your, uh, preferences. Like, you know, maybe-

    17. MM

      Interesting

    18. MS

      ... you know, you want to see a woman physio who specializes in sports massage 'cause you're a cyclist, and you want them to be local to your area, and so we can make that recommendation. Copilot does that directly inside of the app in chat.

    19. MM

      That is awesome.

    20. MS

      Um, yeah, it's, it's so cool to see that taking off.

    21. MM

      I love that. I need to ask about my cholesterol levels. [laughing]

    22. MS

      [laughing]

    23. MM

      We're gonna do this today.

  14. 19:05 – 20:56

    What will happen to traditional education? How AI will change learning

    1. MM

      Like you mentioned, that access to knowledge is now democratized. What's gonna happen to traditional education? Will we see the standard, like bachelor's, master's, where we basically spend five or six years just acquiring knowledge?

    2. MS

      Yeah, I don't think so. I think that knowledge acquisition is gonna be a conversation between you and, you know, Copilot. So, for example, another feature that we just launched today, in fact, is this Learn Live feature. So you actually have a tutor shows up on the screen, and it will lay out a quiz for you on any topic that you like. So it d- doesn't have to be a school curriculum topic. You might be learning about cacti or, you know, Persian rugs. It will give you an education on it, lay out the kind of curriculum piece by piece, give you a nice quiz, present it in a nice graphical us- user interface. And so, knowledge acquisition is about to get completely decentralized and available to everybody, and you just have an expert teacher in your pocket on any subject.

    3. MM

      Does this mean all education businesses are dead? I'm thinking about- [laughing]

    4. MS

      I think that-

    5. MM

      ... my apps. [laughing]

    6. MS

      I think it's the opposite. I think education businesses that adopt these kinds of AI tools and integrate them as quickly as possible, that they're really gonna flourish. It's happening like that for everything. I mean, now in Copilot, you can also generate a podcast literally in a minute. It's a great introductory thing. Like the other day, I generate- I don't really follow football or, like, soccer, um, but I do support Arsenal because I'm from London. And, uh, when I go back to London to see my friends, I wanna like, you know, know what I'm talking about a little bit. So I ask Copilot to generate me a podcast on how Arsenal is doing in the season, and what the latest is with the transfers, and who are the best players, and stuff like that. So just, like, fun, s- you know, simple bits of information are perfect.

    7. MM

      Mm.

    8. MS

      And now I'm in the gym listening to a little five, seven-minute podcast about

  15. 20:56 – 23:00

    Should you still be saving for your kid’s college?

    1. MS

      that.

    2. MM

      Going back to knowledge and education, should I be saving for my kids' college or not? They're five and four. [laughing]

    3. MS

      Um, so in t- so 15 years' time?

    4. MM

      Yeah.

    5. MS

      Um, probably not. [laughing]

    6. MM

      [laughing]

    7. MS

      There you go. [laughing] I don't know. It's really hard to judge. I'm not sure that we will value a Stanford education, um, that costs... I don't know, what does it cost? Fifty grand a year or something.

    8. MM

      I think more.

    9. MS

      Is it more? Something crazy.

    10. MM

      Fifty is a private school here.

    11. MS

      Right. I mean, I just... [exhaling] I don't- I think that we're gonna have world-class expertise on tap that costs twenty bucks a month.

    12. MM

      But what if, like, for example, right now I'm educated, and like I studied maths, economics, so I can have these conversations. If I completely abandon acquisition of knowledge, how can I have an argument? It's not like I'm always talking to my phone, right?

    13. MS

      [laughing] Well, you could w- you could still argue about stuff. If anything, it'll probably make us all more argumentative 'cause we'll be even more knowledgeable. We wanna be exchanging ideas with people, right?

    14. MM

      Yeah, I mean, but since you base your arguments on things that you've acqui- acquired when learning something.

    15. MS

      Yeah, but you, you... That- that's kind of my point, is that the knowledge acquisition in the traditional form-

    16. MM

      Mm-hmm

    17. MS

      ... in the classroom, you know, with the textbook, that's gonna shift entirely. So the classroom is gonna look more like practicing using your knowledge.

    18. MM

      Mm. So yeah, I'd acquire more knowledge if I do it the other way around with AI?

    19. MS

      Exactly.

    20. MM

      Okay.

    21. MS

      'Cause then as a kid, you're gonna be able to talk to your AI tutor at any time during the day. You're gonna learn from the AI podcast, you're gonna learn from the AI video that is gonna be generated. So all the kind of straightforward teaching is gonna take place, you know, with the student and the AI, and then when you come into the classroom for your day, the students are gonna be talking to each other about the knowledge that they've acquired from their AI, and debating and learning to, you know, be more empathetic, and be better listeners, and adjust their tone and, you know, that kind of thing.

  16. 23:00 – 23:49

    What skills should we actually learn today?

    1. MM

      So, what do you think-

    2. MS

      Yeah

    3. MM

      ... uh, parents should be teaching their kids now?

    4. MS

      I think it's still important to be good at, like, learning knowledge from first principles yourself, and not depending on the sort of AI tutor leading you through. Like, I think one of the most important things is, from school, is the discipline of being able to teach yourself.

    5. MM

      Mm.

    6. MS

      That's a meta skill, and that, you know, that, that comes with friction. So I think as a parent, you still have to introduce, like, discipline and friction into the process. Because if it comes all too slowly and it's always on tap, you know, then the, then there's a risk that the child could just get used to having everything instantly available-

    7. MM

      Yeah

    8. MS

      ... and doesn't learn from the hard work, um, you know, the benefits of hard work, which I think are important. So that's, like, something to think through now that everything is gonna be so

  17. 23:49 – 25:14

    Do you need to be technical to build a career in tech? Mustafa’s story

    1. MS

      seamless.

    2. MM

      Another question I wanted to ask you, uh, for everyone who thinks that they need to be technical in the age of AI-

    3. MS

      Mm

    4. MM

      ... you have philosophical background, and you're head of AI at Microsoft.

    5. MS

      Yeah, I mean, I, I think that it's easier than ever to understand what's being built. Like, everything is available on YouTube. You know, there are so many courses, the curriculums for all of the major CS classes, machine learning classes.... are available for undergraduate, uh, master's level even.

    6. MM

      Is that how you learn?

    7. MS

      Yeah.

    8. MM

      Yeah?

    9. MS

      Like, I've watched- I watched Andrew Ng's course back in the day-

    10. MM

      Mm.

    11. MS

      -uh, which I encourage everyone to look at. And there's just so many classes. I, I watched maybe 10 years ago, I think, when he was at Coursera when it first came out.

    12. MM

      Wow.

    13. MS

      And I've just watched so many of those, so it's very accessible.

    14. MM

      Mm.

    15. MS

      And I think if you just have a logical mind, you're patient, you're disciplined with your own learning, it is actually very, very easy.

    16. MM

      That's great. So anyone- well, basically anyone who learns can become head of AI, build an AI company without learning how to code, and-

    17. MS

      Yeah, 'cause the skills now are... I mean, it's still good to be able to learn how to code, but the primary skill is in synthesis. Like, the goal is to bring together all the different disciplines of UX, and research, and product-

    18. MM

      Mm

    19. MS

      ... and the aesthetic, and also large-scale distributed systems for training big models, doing the hardware. Like, you know, so I think that people who are multidisciplinary and can straddle loads of different technical disciplines are gonna get rewarded most.

    20. MM

      Yeah. Well, this is

  18. 25:14 – 26:30

    The “memory” feature: when AI remembers everything

    1. MM

      so inspiring. You've released the memory feature, right? So, uh, AI is gonna remember everything about us. I don't know how it's go- I haven't tried the Copilot yet, but, uh, with other AIs, I see how it forgets. Like, I just tell it, and then I ask the question, and for some reason it forgets, and I have to remind it.

    2. MS

      Yeah.

    3. MM

      Is it gonna be a problem? Have you, have you tried it?

    4. MS

      It doesn't have infinite, perfect memory-

    5. MM

      Mm-hmm

    6. MS

      ... but it does remember specific durable facts. So it will remember that you have a preference for, I don't know, pineapple on pizza, and that you like going running on a Sunday morning or whatever.

    7. MM

      Or, like, measure- my measurements. That's the thing that-

    8. MS

      Definitely

    9. MM

      ... my AIs keep forgetting.

    10. MS

      Oh, really?

    11. MM

      Like, "Can you choose the size from this website?" "Oh, I don't have your measurements." I'm like: "No, yes, you do."

    12. MS

      Oh, interesting.

    13. MM

      And it'll be like, "Oh, exactly, I do have them." I experience this forgetting problem almost everywhere-

    14. MS

      Yeah

    15. MM

      ... with AI.

    16. MS

      I mean, we're working on a good knowledge representation as well, so you can go and edit the AI's memory of what it knows-

    17. MM

      Mm

    18. MS

      ... about you. And if you ask Copilot today, "What do you know about me?" It will produce a pretty long list.

    19. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MS

      It's not entirely definitive, so it won't be absolutely everything that you've ever told it. It is selective, and it chooses what to remember. And you can tell it to remember certain things, like, "Please remember my-

    21. MM

      Yeah

    22. MS

      ... size," and so on.

    23. MM

      Yeah, edit my memory. Yeah.

    24. MS

      Yeah. But it, it is gonna remember everything in the future and be perfect if you choose for it to do that. And of course, you can delete it, and control it, and

  19. 26:30 – 28:35

    If AI remembers everything, what happens to our brains?

    1. MS

      edit it as you wish.

    2. MM

      So if it remembers everything, what's gonna happen to our brains?

    3. MS

      Um, I think people said that about calculators, right?

    4. MM

      Mm.

    5. MS

      Like, you know, people aren't gonna have to memorize their times tables anymore. They're just gonna use the calculator. Um-

    6. MM

      But you know what? When I was preparing for GMAT, the test that you have to take for an MBA, they don't allow you to use calculators, and there are a lot of numbers. I remember then, that two weeks after the exam, my brain was so fast-

    7. MS

      Mm

    8. MM

      ... because I trained it to calculate, and then it gradually slowed down-

    9. MS

      Mm

    10. MM

      ... and I lost this again. [chuckles]

    11. MS

      Do you think that that transferred into other areas of your knowledge because you're good at memoring- memorizing the numbers?

    12. MM

      No, I think it was just related to numbers.

    13. MS

      It's sort of the risk, isn't it? It's like, you know, I used to be able to memorize a lot of telephone numbers as a kid, 'cause I, 'cause I-

    14. MM

      'Cause you had to. [laughs]

    15. MS

      Yeah, I didn't get a cellphone till I was, like, 15. I think I was one of the first people to get cell phones in my year at school. And before that, everyone just remembered telephone numbers. Uh, and now I can barely remember my own phone number from [chuckles] you know, my own house.

    16. MM

      Yeah.

    17. MS

      Um-

    18. MM

      Do you think it affects our brains, or they just develop in a different way?

    19. MS

      I don't think so, because my brain is now stimulated in a lot of other directions.

    20. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    21. MS

      Um, you know, it's a muscle that you don't exercise, but in turn, you focus on other aspects of your brain. And so I think that we're way better at synthesizing vast amounts of novel information compared to like, you know, people in the '50s or our ancestors 200 years ago. I mean, we're completely bombarded with stimulus, right?

    22. MM

      Yeah.

    23. MS

      And so I think that's interesting. It's had an interesting effect. In some respects, it's made us a bit more polarized. In other respects, it's made us much more empathetic. Like, we don't fear, you know, people of color, or people of different sexualities, or women. And a, and a lot of that has got to do with just being aware-

    24. MM

      Yeah

    25. MS

      ... of others, and spending time with them, and watching them on social media, and behave in different ways, and, and that has driven a lot more empathy, actually. People often focus on how it's driven a lot more disagreement, and it has, but it's also driven so much more understanding, um, and, you know, respect, and forgiveness,

  20. 28:35 – 29:17

    Are we getting dumber with AI?

    1. MS

      and those kinds of things.

    2. MM

      So d- in general, do you think we're getting dumber with AI or not?

    3. MS

      No, I don't think we're getting dumber. I, I think that it's r- it reduces the barrier to accessing information, and it actually makes us a lot smarter. You can ask any question now, and many people are. So questions that were previously going unasked because the cost of going to a library, and pulling a book off the shelf, and talking to the librarian was too hard. It took, like, four hours to get an answer to some question. Like, now you can go to the web, and then after the web, you can answer a- ask a perfect question in a conversational way to a chatbot. So I think that's driving more collective intelligence and more, um, awareness and understanding of our world.

    4. MM

      Can

  21. 29:17 – 30:39

    Killer AI features people underuse — that actually save time

    1. MM

      you talk to me about some killer features that you think people are underutilizing right now with AI? Like, you implement something, and then you save, like, an hour a day. So for me, it was asking AI to add things to my calendar, reply to my emails, search through my emails. Uh, that has saved me a lot of time.

    2. MS

      Yeah, I mean, [exhales] I think one of the super exciting features is this thing we're calling connectors, so Copilot connectors, and you can just say to Copilot, "Hook up my Gmail, hook up my calendar." You can do it in Teams. You can do it with your Dropbox. You can do it from any, basically, source of data that you have about yourself, and then ask Copilot any question about it.

    3. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MS

      So scheduling, booking, searching for content, and it will actually integrate that knowledge into its answers as well.... so if you say, "Oh, I'm planning to go here at the weekend," it'll be like, "Oh, but you've already made this appointment here,"-

    5. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MS

      -or, uh, you know.

    7. MM

      Mm.

    8. MS

      So it would- that it will seamlessly have that contextual awareness about you. It's a really cool feature.

    9. MM

      So even if I ask it, ask it to schedule something, it's gonna tell me, like, "Oh, you have a conflict"?

    10. MS

      Yeah.

    11. MM

      Oh, nice.

    12. MS

      Or, or, or it's-

    13. MM

      Mm

    14. MS

      ... gonna just be like, "You know, you're interested... I, I, I, you know, I was reading from you, like, you know, where you went on vacation last year when you did your travel planning, that you really enjoyed, you know, Greece or something like that."

    15. MM

      Mm.

    16. MS

      "And so you might wanna try, you know, whatever."

    17. MM

      What is your

  22. 30:39 – 31:25

    Mustafa’s favorite use case of AI

    1. MM

      personal favorite use case?

    2. MS

      I use voice three or four times a day, and I use it at the end of the day as well for kind of journaling and talking. So I have it set up on my, uh, iPhone in the power button. So I literally just press the power button, straight away goes into voice mode, and then I kind of talk to Copilot on the way home when I'm driving home. Um-

    3. MM

      Oh, so you talk about your day, or-

    4. MS

      Yeah, talk about my day.

    5. MM

      Like journaling?

    6. MS

      Yeah, it's totally journaling.

    7. MM

      But with AI.

    8. MS

      And then it r- then it will remind me what I've said in previous days, and it-

    9. MM

      Wow

    10. MS

      ... will help me think through a tricky problem I have, and it kind of maintains state for me.

    11. MM

      Wow!

    12. MS

      It's like a second memory.

    13. MM

      Wow. I love this.

    14. MS

      Yeah.

    15. MM

      It's like second memory journaling that has all the information, and then, yeah, helps you with your decisions.

    16. MS

      Yeah, it does.

    17. MM

      That's-

    18. MS

      Yeah, it's very cool

    19. MM

      ... fascinating.

  23. 31:25 – 32:00

    Should we be worried AI knows so much about us?

    1. MM

      Do you have a worry it knows too much about us?

    2. MS

      Um, [laughs]

    3. MM

      [laughs]

    4. MS

      No, I th- I think that as long as it's useful and it's got a purpose, I don't mind.

    5. MM

      Mm.

    6. MS

      And I think that's also the story of technology so far, right?

    7. MM

      Yeah. Yeah.

    8. MS

      Everybody uses the camera and uses location and-

    9. MM

      Yeah

    10. MS

      ... knows their search history-

    11. MM

      That's true

    12. MS

      ... is helping personalize search, so.

    13. MM

      Like you said, we have to be careful about it. Uh, Elon Musk is very vocal about, uh, containing AI. Uh, I think Geoffrey Hinton said that we'll have to be plumbers if we don't learn

  24. 32:00 – 34:22

    Work automated by AI: why it’s not an AI problem but a human one

    1. MM

      how to work with AI, I think he said.

    2. MS

      A plumber, [laughs] did he?

    3. MM

      Yeah, because, like, we're still not there with the robotics to do certain tasks, especially like when every house is custom, right? So it's not a standardized task. But with intelligence, it's like we're getting to a point where, you know, people either learn to do something with hands or become entrepreneurs and use AI to bring their ideas to life, or then you're out.

    4. MS

      No, but I think it's making all of us way more creative because people have access to tools in a way they never had before, right? Not, not just access to information, but access to experimentation. So you can take an idea, generate the product for it in an image. You can generate the technical specification. You can get the documentation for your marketing campaign. So you can simulate all of these things ahead of time before you've even built and deployed something.

    5. MM

      What if you're not entrepreneurial enough? I'm just thinking about people who are like, "I just want to do, like, standard thing every single day-

    6. MS

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. MM

      - and just feel good about it."

    8. MS

      Right, right. But is that an AI problem, or is [laughs] is that a-

    9. MM

      I think it's an AI, because those, like-

    10. MS

      ... a human problem? [laughs]

    11. MM

      ... because stan- like those standardized tasks, something that's super repeatable is being replaced.

    12. MS

      Yeah, but I- it depends on your default assumption about the human condition. I don't believe that the majority of people do want to work on a toothpaste packing line, just screwing in the top of a toothpaste tube.

    13. MM

      Mm.

    14. MS

      I think that people want creative work. I think people wanna pursue their passions. They wanna, you know, be led by their own interests and curiosity, and, um, we shouldn't valorize or, you know, sort of idolize, like, routine work. Most people... I think many people do jobs that they would love to get rid of and pursue their passion, and I think AI lowers the barrier to entry to you pursuing your passion. Um, now, quite often, you might be in a partnership with your husband or your wife or your best friend, and they might not be as interested in collecting stamps or, you know, sort of like keeping snails-

    15. MM

      Yeah

    16. MS

      ... or, [laughs] you know, great shoes-

    17. MM

      [laughs]

    18. MS

      - as you are, right?

    19. MM

      Yeah.

    20. MS

      And then that's unfortunate. Like, now, you know, you have an AI that knows everything that you could possibly think of, um, you know, about your stamp passion.

    21. MM

      Yeah.

    22. MS

      Uh, and I think that's cool.

    23. MM

      What about adjusting to the

  25. 34:22 – 35:38

    How to adapt to the speed of AI progress — and could something like this happen again?

    1. MM

      speed at which AI is developing? During the Industrial Revolution, workers destroyed machines that replaced them. Could something like that happen again?

    2. MS

      That's natural. It's healthy to express fear and frustration, um, publicly, and be open and vocal about it. We shouldn't shame it. People are afraid-

    3. MM

      Yeah

    4. MS

      ... and it's very understandable. Um, but the history of science and technology tells us that net-net, these tend to be, or at least so far, they have been incredibly positive transitions we've made. Like automation has lifted billions of people out of poverty. You know, our average life expectancy over the last two hundred and fifty years has gone from about thirty to about seventy-five, right? That's unbelievable, like, that people are living three times longer, pretty much, and that's to- as a result of all of these discoveries and all this science and so on. So I think so far so good, and I, I do think that the trend is headed in the right direction. It doesn't mean that there won't be consequences and side effects, and, like, you have to be very open-minded to that and very, like, conscious of it. It is gonna happen.

    5. MM

      Do you think in our case, we'll

  26. 35:38 – 37:11

    In 25 years: massive structural unemployment?

    1. MM

      have UBI to-

    2. MS

      I hope so

    3. MM

      ... work the problem? 'Cause we've never had it before, and you think this is the time.

    4. MS

      I think we do have it. I mean, we- that's what our taxation-

    5. MM

      Mm

    6. MS

      ... system does. It decides who to, you know-

    7. MM

      Mm-hmm

    8. MS

      ... redistribute from-

    9. MM

      Mm-hmm

    10. MS

      ... and who to redistribute to, and it incentivizes certain types of behavior.

    11. MM

      Mm, I like how you think about it.

    12. MS

      Um, and so we do, we do have a large-scale redistribution mechanism today.

    13. MM

      Yeah.

    14. MS

      Um, wealthier people do pay more taxes than people who don't, and-... pretty much-

    15. MM

      In the US. [laughing]

    16. MS

      Sort of. It's pretty roughly true. It's true. Certainly income tax, um, not so much on capital gains tax, it's true.

    17. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    18. MS

      And so we've done redistribution before, and we'll have to do redistribution again. Um, I mean, the, the, the truth is, these are labor-replacing technologies, and you can debate the timelines, but I think you can certainly say by 2050, like in twenty-five years' time, I think there's gonna be significant structural unemployment. I think that a large portion of the population are gonna struggle to compete in the, in the workplace with, with AI. So we're gonna have to decide, um, whether to shorten the working week or whether to, um, you know, increase taxes on some portion of capital, um, or indeed, like, some portion of high-earning incomes-

    19. MM

      Yeah

    20. MS

      ... and how to redistribute that, because that's what civilization is about. It's about bringing everybody with us and not just, uh, you know, a few.

    21. MM

      One hundred percent.

  27. 37:11 – 38:00

    Who will lead the future — governments or Big Tech?

    1. MM

      And do you think the governments will be working on that or large companies who have-

    2. MS

      I think the governments have to lead it.

    3. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MS

      I mean, it, it needs to be democratically accountable, and, uh, there's no question that it needs to be led by governments. But, but companies are gonna- are gonna be the ones footing the bill.

    5. MM

      Mm.

    6. MS

      They, you know, companies are gonna be the ones that are driving this massive transition. I mean, Bill Gates said many years ago now, like six or seven years ago, that we need a robot tax. The only way to do it is to tax-

    7. MM

      Mm

    8. MS

      ... the robots, right?

    9. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MS

      Um, and tax-- essentially, what that means is tax capital. Um, because intelligence, which was previously the domain of labor, like people, is now getting converted into capital. It's gonna be turned into a commodity that can be sold and resold-

    11. MM

      Yeah

    12. MS

      ... infinitely, and so that's where the value transition is gonna happen, and so taxation has to follow that value transition.

    13. MM

      He called

  28. 38:00 – 40:35

    “The Coming Wave”: what’s changed since the book and why Mustafa didn’t expect this speed

    1. MM

      your book his favorite book on AI. So you wrote your book a few years ago. Uh, is there something that has changed completely that you couldn't predict when you were writing this book?

    2. MS

      Changed completely?

    3. MM

      There was an update about 2024, when you said, "The wave is here," the wave of AI.

    4. MS

      Yeah.

    5. MM

      Uh, what is the 2025 update to your book?

    6. MS

      Yeah, good question. So in the book, I sort of laid out this framework of capabilities. There was IQ, the intelligence quotient, which is kind of like the factuality and the knowledge, citations, and stuff, and that was about hallucinations, and I predicted that they were gonna be largely eliminated, and I think pretty much we're on track. Pretty much they are. Uh, there was the emotional intelligence, which is the tone and style of the personalities of these things, and then there was the AQ. So IQ, EQ, AQ. AQ is the actions quotient, like the extent to which it can get things done-

    7. MM

      Mm

    8. MS

      ... book your calendar, appointments, and stuff like that. The bit that I missed, um, is SQ, the social intelligence, and like today, actually, we're launching this new feature, Copilot Groups, and it's the first time that you can chat, uh, with up to thirty-two other people and Copilot all in one group. So if you're-

    9. MM

      Ah

    10. MS

      ... organizing a trip, or you're, uh, helping your-

    11. MM

      Like working with your team, no?

    12. MS

      You're working with your team-

    13. MM

      Yeah

    14. MS

      ... or you're, you know, trying to, like, plan a care pathway for your parent or sibling or something like that, you can have the family or your friends or your colleagues in a single group chat, all seeing the same context-

    15. MM

      Mm

    16. MS

      ... all asking their own questions. And the cool thing about the social intelligence of Copilot is that it can change its tone and style and responses to each individual person in the group, knowing that, like, your mum might want a different type of explanation to your younger brother or something. Um, and it also remembers the, the types of jokes that people like or the history that you have talked about. So if you say that you're really into, uh, you know, tennis or something, then it's gonna remember to talk to you about, uh, you know, Wimbledon or whatever it is, right? And that's social intelligence. That's what we do as humans.

    17. MM

      Yeah.

    18. MS

      We can manage the room.

    19. MM

      Yeah.

    20. MS

      We can adjust our style and tone. I didn't expect us, in 2025, to design AIs that are really good, good at IQ, knowledge, and, and factualness, have really pretty good personalities, can actually take actions on our behalf, and can manage group settings. The group thing is very exciting.

  29. 40:35 – 41:50

    Where all this is leading us in the next few years

    1. MM

      Wow! Well, where does this lead us, uh, in ten years, this particular quality of AI?

    2. MS

      I think it's going to be the main frontier. I think it's gonna be the most interesting part because those group settings will involve other humans joining them. So it could be a professional joining, like a, a lawyer to give legal advice, and then that lawyer's gonna bring their own AI paralegal to fact-check-

    3. MM

      Oh, wow

    4. MS

      ... or to summarize. Or it could be the doctor, and you will have spoken to your AI doctor for half an hour before the human doctor comes in to the same chat, and the AI doctor will have summarized everything, briefed you, talked you through everything, reassured you, answered twenty-five questions, and then you talk to the human at the end for a shorter time-

    5. MM

      Mm

    6. MS

      ... and get the full feedback from the human. And the human doctor knows that its AI is the one that has been approved, and it relies on-

    7. MM

      Mm

    8. MS

      ... and it kind of reflects them. Um, so you'll have humans and AIs of different types all in the same group setting.

    9. MM

      Like a Zoom call. [laughing]

    10. MS

      Yeah, kind of like a Zoom call-

    11. MM

      Or-

    12. MS

      ... or a Zoom chat.

    13. MM

      Yeah.

    14. MS

      You know, it's like a... It's basically like... Well, I mean, that's what-- it's Copilot Groups. [laughing]

    15. MM

      Yeah.

    16. MS

      You know, there's gonna be-

    17. MM

      Yeah, yeah

    18. MS

      ... group chat all the time.

    19. MM

      Wow. Okay, this is so fascinating. Thank you so much.

    20. MS

      Pleasure. Thank you for having me. This has been really fun.

    21. MM

      Yeah. Thank you.

Episode duration: 41:50

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