Simon SinekChief Angela Averiett on What It Really Takes to Change Police Culture | A Bit of Optimism
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
65 min read · 13,263 words- 0:00 – 2:39
Intro
- AAAngela Averiett
It wasn't until 2015 that I felt comfortable enough to cry in front of people. So one of my colleagues was killed in the line of duty, and I remember showing up to, to work that day, and that was the first time I allowed myself to cry in front of my coworkers
- SSSimon Sinek
And what was the response?
- AAAngela Averiett
Everyone else was crying, too. Everyone was a wreck, and I think it created a safe space for them to express that. That's another thing that we don't build into our culture, is that it's okay to be vulnerable, because vulnerability, people mistake it as a sign of weakness. I think it's a superpower.
- SSSimon Sinek
Law enforcement. The mere utterance of the word gets some people's blood pumping on both sides of the political aisle. But the fact is we need police in a civilized society. The question we have to grapple with is: What's the best way for a modern police organization to operate in today's world? Here's what I've learned. Nearly all of the scandals the police have had almost always boil down to the same issue: a lack of good leadership or a broken corporate culture, which are completely interrelated. That's why I invited Chief of Police Angela Averiett to join me on the podcast. She's been a cop for over 27 years and has seen a thing or two in her time. She leads a mid-sized police force in California and has embraced many of the leadership and culture-building techniques that folks like the military and many modern corporations already use, and the results have been astounding. We touched on a lot of hot button subjects, and we shied away from nothing. I can guarantee that we will say at least one thing that will make almost everyone listening a little bit uncomfortable. But if we wanna modernize the way police cultures are built today, we have to be open to having a curious and honest conversation about it. I'd like to add that Chief Averiett is also a member of an organization that I founded not long after the murder of George Floyd, The Curve Initiative. The Curve brings together some of the most forward-thinking, modern-minded chiefs and sheriffs, Republicans and Democrats, from across the country to figure out how we can help police learn the newest and best ways to build their leaders and build strong corporate cultures. Chief Averiett knows that the only way we can make a positive and lasting change in the police for the police and for the community is if the change comes from the inside out. If you'd like to learn more about the work we're doing at The Curve, please visit us at thecurve.org. This is A Bit of Optimism.
- 2:39 – 5:46
Why Angela Averiett Became a Police Officer
- SSSimon Sinek
I have many questions. The, the police are... They're a topic these days more than ever before, I think.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
They're not just civil servants that operate in the background. You know, at moments we love them, at moments we hate them, depending on, you know, our level of need-
- AAAngela Averiett
The flavor of the day
- SSSimon Sinek
... or what, what flavor-
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes
- SSSimon Sinek
... what side you're on. They've always been somewhat political in the sense that, you know, crime is, I guess, the political thing.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
And there's different theories about how to fight it. But I would venture to say since the murder of George Floyd and, and up until today, the police have been front and center of, at the very minimum, the news and, more than that, controversy and debate. Is-
- AAAngela Averiett
That's fair.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think that's a fair statement.
- AAAngela Averiett
That's fair.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I wanna get to that with you. Let's start from the beginning. The... What made you choose this as a profession? What did you... Like, where'd you grow up? What did you study? You know, like, how did... how, how are you here now as a chief of police?
- AAAngela Averiett
[laughs] How much time do we have?
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- AAAngela Averiett
'Cause that's a very long story and it's very twisted. So I actually never had any intentions of being a police officer. Um, I wanted to be an airline pilot and, uh, I was around 20 years old and had just gotten married to my husband that I'm still married to. He's my first husband, my only husband.
- SSSimon Sinek
Congratulations.
- AAAngela Averiett
Which, thank you, I'm so happy-
- SSSimon Sinek
That's a, that's a-
- AAAngela Averiett
... to say
- SSSimon Sinek
... an accomplishment just-
- AAAngela Averiett
It's quite an accomplishment
- SSSimon Sinek
... in these day, in this day and age, yeah
- AAAngela Averiett
... exactly. We had a small child at the time and I was trying to figure out, you know, what I wanted to do. I worked at an airline, and I really wanted to be an airline pilot. The problem was we were very poor and couldn't afford flying lessons. And so, uh, my brother, who's a firefighter, um, told me about this job working at the police department, and I was like, "Oh, great." It's, you know, double what my salary is now, which I think at that time was, like, $15 an hour, right? Which I thought was a lot of money. And I was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna be able to take my flying lessons." Well, the problem was it still wasn't enough money for me to take flying lessons, but I went on a ride-along, and that changed, literally changed the trajectory of my life. Like, I'm, I'm even getting, like, worked up talking about it right now because I remember being so scared but so energized on that ride-along, and we didn't even do anything. I think we went to an alarm call w- at, at some commercial building. And I remember the officer, like, doing the Scooby-Doo thing and, like, creeping around and, "Shh," you know, "Stay right behind me." And I was just like, "Oh my God, this is so exciting." And I remember how people looked at us when we drove by, not always with the nicest look on their face. But I just remember feeling like such a huge part of the community-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- AAAngela Averiett
... being on that ride-along, and that's really what propelled me in this direction. It took me three years to get hired on as an officer back then.
- SSSimon Sinek
You went to the academy, obviously. You had to.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
You, you sworn in and you operate in the... You're in the Bay Area.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- 5:46 – 8:34
Cops Meet People on the Worst Day of Their Lives
- AAAngela Averiett
Ooh. I think what made it better was really having the ability to affect someone's life in a positive way. And, you know, I'm meeting people literally on the worst day of their life sometime, and it's tragic and it's hard, it's gritty, it's, it's dark.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- AAAngela Averiett
But taking that moment and having the ability to turn it around, to give this individual some glimmer of hope that I'm gonna be there to help them-
- SSSimon Sinek
Give me an example
- AAAngela Averiett
... get them through this dark time.
- SSSimon Sinek
Give me an example.
- AAAngela Averiett
Um, okay, so, [scoffs] so I remember I responded to the hospital one night. This lady had been a victim of domestic violence. She had been with this man for a long time, and he had shot her. Well, this was the second time that he shot her. He shot her one time, and she didn't die. He shot her this second time in the head, but luckily the angle of the bullet, like, kind of skirted around her skull and exited, so she was alive. I've never met this woman in my life. I walk into the ER and I say, "Hi, I'm, I'm Angela. I'm here to take your report." And I looked at her and I said, "You know what? Your mother was right." And she looks at me like, "I don't know you. What are you talking about?" And I said, "Girl, you are hard-headed." [laughs] And as corny as that joke was, it made her relax. We probably laughed for five minutes, and then she told me the story about what happened.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAngela Averiett
And so I just wanted to build a rapport with her. I wanted to calm her down because she was so afraid-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- AAAngela Averiett
... in that moment, and I don't know what happened to her. I know she survived that. I don't know if she went back to him.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAngela Averiett
But in that small moment, Simon, I just felt like I was able to give her some, some hope, some happiness, and it made me feel good to help her in that way. And so that's the positive thing on the job is I meet so many different types of people, and I'm able to, in some small way, help them through a dark time.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- AAAngela Averiett
The flip side, though, is that there are a lot of dark times.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- AAAngela Averiett
And I've seen some horrendous, horrendous things in my time on the job, things that I think I've packed away in a little box and thrown into the back of my brain because I don't wanna remember them.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- AAAngela Averiett
And I'm sure a lot of cops will say the same thing, right? We come across some of the, [sighs] some of the worst in our society.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- AAAngela Averiett
Right? Like, I like to be happy. I like to be an optimist. I like to think the best in people. But not everyone is good.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- AAAngela Averiett
We come across true evil, and that's the part, that's the worst part of the job. And seeing, you know, children dying, seeing people being abused, children being abused, horrendous accidents, it's, it's a lot sometimes to process.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- 8:34 – 9:51
Why Cynicism Becomes a Coping Mechanism
- SSSimon Sinek
Cops are some of the most cynical people I've ever met, um, for all the reasons you said. They see people at their worst. They know everyone, regardless of their income, regardless of their color, they know everyone has it in them to do something bad, to... E- even if it's, even if it's something stupid, like you get caught for speeding and you start yelling at the cop.
- AAAngela Averiett
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I did ride-alongs when I was in college with the-
- AAAngela Averiett
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... Massachusetts State Police, and I, I saw it. I s- and it... Saw it. And, and, and so more than any other civil servant, cops are really cynical. Is that a good thing? Is that a s- is that a, is that a bad thing? Is it just go with the job? Does it hurt the profession? Is it something that... Can you make cops less cynical? You know?
- AAAngela Averiett
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh...
- AAAngela Averiett
Sorry, I'm laughing 'cause I don't think that's possible. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- AAAngela Averiett
That's possible.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, they're s- they're cynical.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yeah. And-
- SSSimon Sinek
About society.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because for everything you just said, they see people... Yes, there's good, and they all have the stories of helping the little old ladies across the street.
- AAAngela Averiett
Of course.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I feel as like my, my job is, has value. And there's a lot of that that's, let's be honest, it makes it onto the websites.
- AAAngela Averiett
Of course, yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, and the chiefs like to say, "Look at all our cops helping kittens out of trees." But at the end of the day, it's a lot of people at their worst, and it's a lot of bad days, even if it's a car accident where nobody did anything, but it's a
- 9:51 – 12:42
Officer Wellness and the Mental Toll of the Job
- SSSimon Sinek
bad day.
- AAAngela Averiett
Correct. I think it's part of the job. It's a coping mechanism.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAngela Averiett
But it all evolves around mindset, right? If you allow the evil and the darkness to stay in your brain 24/7, it's gonna turn you dark. It's gonna turn you cynical, right? I don't think it's possible to train the cynicism out of who we are as police officers. It's how we cope with things-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- AAAngela Averiett
... to be quite honest. However, I think we've made some strides in lessening the cynicism-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- AAAngela Averiett
... through focusing on officer wellness-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- AAAngela Averiett
... which 20 years ago was not a thing. There was no wellness. Like, I remember going to a fire where this eight-year-old boy died, and it was horrible. It was a horrible scene, and I escorted his body to the hospital, and I just remember, like, being so devastated in that moment for his family, and there was nothing I could do. And then my sergeant shows up, and he's like, "Hey, are you okay?" Well, of course, I'm gonna say I'm okay, right? And he goes, "Okay. Well, you have a call holding. I need you to, to clear and go hit the street." So I went from that to I don't even know what the next call was. It didn't matter what it was.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- AAAngela Averiett
But I wasn't able to process-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- AAAngela Averiett
... what I was going through in that moment. Now, I think what we would do is pull people off the street, let them go back to the station, decompress, maybe even send them home, but I had to just keep going and taking reports from people. That's why I think people sometimes get cops that aren't at their best, because you don't know what call they just came from to come see you.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- AAAngela Averiett
Right? We didn't do a great job in thinking about or talking about our mental health.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- AAAngela Averiett
And we saw a lot of issues because of it. You know, officer suicide still is a huge problem. Um, alcoholism, you know, the list goes on and on, and the vices that we probably find to deal with the stress and the, the pain of this job. But I think just talking about it first is helpful, recognizing that there's a problem, but also, I think we don't talk enough about mindset, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- AAAngela Averiett
So I can tell you that there were many times on the job where I wanted to quit. I wanted to retire. I, I just didn't have it in me that day to, to carry on because it was just exhausting. Oh, also, we work a lot of weird shifts. We work long hours, right? And so what I would do to reset myself sometimes is [laughs] there was a store in town that-Well, it was, it was a puppy mill. Okay, so I know that's not the best thing, right? I know people are gonna, like, lose their minds over it. But still, they had puppies, and the puppies were amazing. And I would go in there and I would play with all the puppies, and it would... I would almost cry because it was so amazing, and it would, it would reset my mind. And then I would go back on the street and I'd be like, "Okay, I got this. I can do this another day."
- SSSimon Sinek
And y- it was something private, separate. Nobody could make fun of you 'cause nobody knew you were doing it.
- AAAngela Averiett
Well, my, my partner at the time, she went with me.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay.
- AAAngela Averiett
But we didn't tell anybody. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- AAAngela Averiett
It was
- 12:42 – 15:36
The Curve Initiative & Changing Police Culture
- AAAngela Averiett
our secret.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think people don't appreciate that a lot of the scandals, problems, uh, even excessive violence that we see that has come out of some police, uh, agencies, police forces... You know, when somebody is in a high-stress job in the private sector, let's, let's add in some unhealthy corporate culture where you might get along with everybody but you don't really trust anybody, which is-
- AAAngela Averiett
Hmm. Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... it's pervasive in policing, which we'll talk about in a moment. And so you have a high-stress job, you have excessive amounts of machismo and testosterone. You can't ask for help. You know, you get... Somebody comes in y- right after you, you come from an eight-year-old, you know, dead body, and now you have to go out and be chipper again. Now, i- in a, in the private sector, if you're in a high-stress job and, and not a lot of trust at work, not a lot of psychological safety, nobody is surprised when you come home, you sit on the couch, you stare at the TV, you're short-tempered with the kids, you kick the dog, you're despondent, and you don't... You're just not a fun person to be around. Nobody is surprised by that. That's how stress shows up very often, right? Lot, a lot of short-tempered.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
If you give somebody authority and a gun, and you multiply that stress by a factor of however many more than just general work stress, it is unsurprising when there is excessive violence where it may be coming from, maybe it sourced from.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I remember, this is w- how you and I met, you know. Full disclosure, I s- started a charity called The Curve, of which you've been involved with now for a few years, um, where we believe modernizing policing starts from the inside out. And when we, when we founded the organization, I remember talking to lots of chiefs and sheriffs, the ones who believe the change has to happen, and I went around the room and said, "What's the problem?" And we-
- AAAngela Averiett
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... got 20, 30 different answers.
- AAAngela Averiett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, um, the first question we said was, "How can we help the profession? How can we make the profession better if we don't even know what the problem is?" But what we found was there's a common factor in all of these, uh, problems that the, that the chiefs and sheriffs articulated, which was poor leadership and broken cultures. And I don't think people recognize and realize we have an entire industry that teaches leadership. I'm a part of it.
- AAAngela Averiett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's embraced by corporate. Some corporations do better than others, obviously.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
But it's, it's a thing.
- AAAngela Averiett
It's a thing.
- SSSimon Sinek
In the military, we see leadership training every time there's a promotion, whether you're enlisted or, or officer. They... Again, we can debate the efficacy of it, but they understand that it's important to train leaders when they become leaders. Policing, there's very little of that as a profession. You wanna make sergeant, you take a test. You decide that, "I want to be a sergeant," and you take the test, and basically it's like you promote yourself. I mean, kinda.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know?
- AAAngela Averiett
Sort of. Sort of.
- SSSimon Sinek
Kinda, sorta.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's not like somebody says, "You're a great leader. We're gonna promote you to sergeant," and there's a process.
- 15:36 – 17:05
Leadership Training vs Broken Culture in Policing
- SSSimon Sinek
Am I right, or am I overstating it?
- AAAngela Averiett
Well, sort of.
- SSSimon Sinek
So somewhere in the middle?
- AAAngela Averiett
Some- somewhere in the middle. Yes, there is a process that we have to follow. People take a test, but sometimes people are good test takers, but does that mean that they're good leaders? It's a combination of, um, technical skill, right? Because there is a, a highly technical element to this job, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Of course. Of course.
- AAAngela Averiett
And to be a sergeant, you have to know how to do the basic things, right? There should be an element of leadership-
- SSSimon Sinek
There should be more
- AAAngela Averiett
... yes, in the questions, in the process.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- AAAngela Averiett
So I actually am putting on a sergeant's test in two weeks, and there is an element to leadership, um, in the testing process. But I have to tell you, Simon, I think it's not just about the lack of leadership training.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAngela Averiett
I sincerely believe it's about culture-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- AAAngela Averiett
... and changing the culture from the inside out. We treat each other like absolute crap sometimes internally. That's where the, the nest is. That's where the problems start, is we talk crap about each other all the time. We treat each other terribly. We have some leaders who are just terrible leaders, and some leaders that are just terrible individuals, to be quite honest with you, right? I, I can say that I've worked for some phenomenal leaders in this job, and I've worked for some, some leaders that are trash, and so they have such a huge influence on the organization-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- AAAngela Averiett
... and on the culture.
- SSSimon Sinek
So goes the leaders goes the organization.
- AAAngela Averiett
It drags the culture down.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAngela Averiett
Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think it's, it goes beyond just leadership.
- SSSimon Sinek
Well-
- AAAngela Averiett
It's about the culture
- SSSimon Sinek
... well, they're inextricably linked, right?
- AAAngela Averiett
Y- absolutely.
- 17:05 – 21:58
Psychological Safety Inside Police Departments
- SSSimon Sinek
The leader sets the culture-
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes
- SSSimon Sinek
... and the leader can... And what I've learned as I've been studying police forces and policing is the, there's, in general, again, it's not a rule, but, but there's too much lack of psychological safety and trust amongst, amongst, definitely from rank and file to leadership.
- AAAngela Averiett
Correct.
- SSSimon Sinek
And again, we're not talking about, you know, when there's a call for help. If there's... If somebody's in danger and there's a call for help, everybody rushes in-
- AAAngela Averiett
Absolutely
- SSSimon Sinek
... because there's a shared danger.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
And that, that, that safety is, is taken care of.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
But we're talking about just the daily job.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the willingness for somebody to say... You said it's hard to say, "I'm struggling," or, "I just saw a dead kid. Just, can I have 10 minutes, please?" You know? You know.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
That, that, that psychological safety, that psychological protection is, is... We need more of it.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes. We don't build psychological safety into our cultures. So I've been-
- SSSimon Sinek
Of all the places we should be building, yeah
- AAAngela Averiett
... of all the places where we need to have it, right? So this is my 28th year in this profession, three years as a professional staffer and then 25 years as a sworn officer. It wasn't until 2015 that I felt comfortable enough to cry in front of people. So one of my colleagues was killed in the line of duty, and I remember showing up to, to work that day.An absolute wreck. And I was like, "There's no way I'm gonna get through this briefing today without, without crying." And then I thought, "Well, why shouldn't I be able to cry?" Like, a man was killed last night on the streets protecting this community. Why should I be afraid to cry in front of people? And I was a lieutenant at the time, so I was pretty high-ranking. And that was the first time I allowed myself to cry in front of my coworkers. How sad is that?
- SSSimon Sinek
What... And what was the response?
- AAAngela Averiett
Everyone else was crying, too. Everyone was a wreck. Everyone was so emotional, and I think it created a safe space for them to express that. And I didn't realize until that moment that it was okay that I could let my wall down a little bit and be more vulnerable. That's another thing that we don't build into our culture, is that it's okay to be vulnerable. Because vulnerability, people mistake it as a sign of weakness. I think it's a superpower.
- SSSimon Sinek
What happened to the culture of that police force after everybody cried?
- AAAngela Averiett
I think it changed a lot of relationships, um, for the better, I think. I think people had a different level of respect for each other. I think it actually humanized us amongst each other, which, think about how weird that is, right? Like, these are people that I spend 12 hours a day with, and I don't... I can't say that we all treated each other like human beings, right? We were not necessarily professional with each other. Um, kinda rude, very cynical, and I think it made people pause and go, "Wait a minute. Your life is in my hands," right? "My life is in your hands when we're out on the street, when we're fighting crime together. So why, behind these four walls, do we treat each other like, like shit?"
- SSSimon Sinek
This raises a very big question, which is the general public is asking for the police to see us as human beings regardless of what's happening. How impossible is that if cops can't even see each other as human beings?
- AAAngela Averiett
Yeah, it's impossible, right? I mean, I'm not surprised that we have the issues that we have in society.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAngela Averiett
Right? Now, now granted, I, I don't want this to sound like this is a cop-bashing moment, 'cause clearly I would never do that. I know you would never do that either. But we have some work to do, right? We need to work on ourselves, but I'm not surprised that we've seen excessive force cases, that we've seen cops in trouble where they're committing crimes and they're doing illegal things, because our culture is so broken on the inside.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAngela Averiett
Now, this isn't true of every organization.
- SSSimon Sinek
Of course not.
- AAAngela Averiett
Right?
- 21:58 – 24:59
Why Modernizing Policing Starts From the Inside Out
- SSSimon Sinek
a broken culture.
- AAAngela Averiett
Absolutely.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, I mean, I hate to bring it up. Well, I don't, actually. You know, if we go back and look at Derek Chauvin-
- AAAngela Averiett
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know, who, who, who killed George Floyd, you know, here is a, a cop with 10 years of excessive force complaints against him who was the training officer that day.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
How does someone with 10 years of complaints against them get chosen as a training officer is mind-blowing, but my point is it was a powder keg waiting to blow.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know?
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
It was... It's like-
- AAAngela Averiett
The signs were there
- SSSimon Sinek
... the signs were there, and it's like-
- AAAngela Averiett
The signs were there for years
- SSSimon Sinek
... it was just a matter of time before Chauvin did something.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? So the solution we, we are aware of. Corporate solutions are usually the same thing. I don't think people recognize that there's no head of police in America, where the head of-
- AAAngela Averiett
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... You know, in the UK, there's a head of police. They can say, "Hey, we're doing this program because the police force needs it," and one person makes a decision and it filters across an entire nation. That doesn't exist in the United States.
- AAAngela Averiett
No.
- SSSimon Sinek
We have 18,000 individual policing agencies.
- AAAngela Averiett
With different cultures.
- SSSimon Sinek
With different cultures.
- AAAngela Averiett
Different sizes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Different sizes, of which the vast majority, I can't remember the number, it's like 80% or something, are fewer than 100 cops.
- AAAngela Averiett
Correct.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so, like, when you look at New York and Chicago, you know, New York has 44,000 cops, they're, they have their own challenges, their own issues. Most policing is local, small, and fewer than 25 cops.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Which have very different cultures.
- AAAngela Averiett
Mm-hmm.
- 24:59 – 27:20
Crime, Fear, and the Emotional Reality of Public Perception
- SSSimon Sinek
Let's go deeper. I, I had this sort of realization w- as I was getting ready to talk to you that crime and police, uh, are deeply emotional for a lot of people.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right?
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
And statistics mean absolutely nothing, right? And so for example, let's just take it Washington, DC right now. The narrative is it's crime ridden. The statistics are crime is... violent crime is actually way down. And it's not a question of agree or disagree. What I realize is those are two different statements, and they're have nothing to do with each other.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because if you've been the victim of a crime or there's been a crime adjacent to you, it's crime ridden.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, you know, it doesn't matter if the statistics come out that burglaries are at an all-time low-
- AAAngela Averiett
Right. If you're a victim, you're like, "No."
- SSSimon Sinek
The police are doing an a- the police are doing-
- AAAngela Averiett
"Crime's out of control."
- SSSimon Sinek
The police are doing an amazing job. The, you know, burglary's an all-time low.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
If there was a burglary n- forget you, if there's a vir- burglary on your block, everyone on that block believes that crime is out of control.
- AAAngela Averiett
That's right.
- SSSimon Sinek
And if you are the victim, now you absolutely believe that crime is out of control, and you will stop at nothing, and you will demand the police do whatever they can. You don't care how aggressive their effort has to be because fear trumps everything.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
And protection of me and my family trumps everything. And, and for people who have been on the wrong side of cops-
- AAAngela Averiett
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... or i- or, or if it's political, they have the same anger towards that uniform and that badge-
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes
- SSSimon Sinek
... regardless of who's wearing it, regardless of the health of your corporate culture, regardless of how good or bad your cops are, it is the statistics and the explanations be damned, whether it's crime or whether it's the cop, it's a deeply, deeply emotional thing. And usually when things are deeply emotional, we want them resolved immediately.
- AAAngela Averiett
Immediately.
- SSSimon Sinek
I want crime stopped now.
- AAAngela Averiett
Right now.
- SSSimon Sinek
I don't care what you have to do. Stop it now.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
And conversely, I want the police to get their shit together.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- 27:20 – 33:38
Changing Mindset After Working in a Toxic Police Culture
- SSSimon Sinek
I believe.
- AAAngela Averiett
Some of them, yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Some have come in and some have come back and some have left.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
How would they rate the culture at your agency compared to other places they've worked?
- AAAngela Averiett
Interesting. I had this conversation recently actually. One of the cops said to me, "People who are homegrown and have only worked here and have never worked anywhere else don't realize that the grass isn't always greener." So I think overall there's a level of satisfaction with the policing culture.
- SSSimon Sinek
So the ones that come from the outside recognize it's pretty good.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
The one that have only, have only worked there-
- AAAngela Averiett
Sometimes they don't see it that way.
- SSSimon Sinek
They, they-
- AAAngela Averiett
Not always.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right, right.
- AAAngela Averiett
Some of them are very happy. Sometimes they don't see it that way, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- AAAngela Averiett
I swear to you, it's all about your mindset, right? I mean, if you focus strictly on negativity and what's wrong with everything, then you're never gonna see what's right with anything.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAngela Averiett
Right? You know, I've been to five different police agencies. I've seen and been involved in so many different cultures, two times as a police chief. Each organization is vastly different, but I think people find a level of happiness and satisfaction when they choose to come to work every day and be positive. Now, that's not always easy. I went through a solid 12 years of my career where I was completely miserable. I worked in a very toxic environment, um, to the point where my safety was impacted, like literally my physical safety was impacted. I worked on a team of individuals that would not cover me on traffic stops. They would not come to my calls because they hated me so much. They would not talk to me. It was a miserable existence. And but what the problem with that was, Simon, is that I allowed that to get to me, where I focused on that every single day. I would come to work, I was terrified to go to work because I didn't know what was gonna happen inside the police department. And then I realized I was allowing those people to have power over me, and so I changed my mindset, and I realized those people are gonna be who they are. I can't change them. I don't wanna change them. I'll let them be miserable over in the corner. I'm gonna be over here happy living my life. And coming to work every day and going, "I'm gonna be positive and I'm gonna try to make an impact on someone's life today," is what changed my mindset. So when we talk about culture, when we talk about whether or not people are happy in the environment they work in, I think it's all in what you make it. This job is really hard. It's hard as a police chief. It's hard as a police officer. It's hard as a sergeant, everything in between. But what keeps me going is seriously the ability to positively impact our communities and the profession. I, I don't... This, this is gonna sound corny. I don't do this job for me. I don't do this job because I like these stars or because I'm, I'm looking for some sort of fame or something. I do it because I love serving people. I love serving the people that I work with. I love being an inspiration to them, but I love being that in the community. One day my granddaughter, her name's London, she's four years old, when she was three she saw me in my uniform for the first time, and I'll never forget her little face just lit upAnd she was like, "You're the police?" And I almost lost it. I almost started bawling because it made me so proud-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- AAAngela Averiett
... in that moment to be a police officer. This is why we do what we do, Simon. We do it because we really do wanna make a difference. I know it's... I know we hear that all the time from our police officers, like, "Oh, I just wanna make a difference in the community," but it's legit. Like, think about the impact that we have, negative and positive, in our communities. This is what just keeps me going, is because I w- I want us to be the best that we can be.
- SSSimon Sinek
What was the first change you made when you became a police chief? You'd seen the good, you'd seen the bad-
- AAAngela Averiett
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... you'd seen the healthy, you'd seen the unhealthy. You've seen mental health not treated-
- AAAngela Averiett
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... seriously in other-
- AAAngela Averiett
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... policing agencies. You realize the importance of that, the, how it taxes on the human being that wears the uniform.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
And if you wanna fix policing in the community, fix the human beings wearing the uniform who are dealing with the stress first, or help them.
- AAAngela Averiett
Mm-hmm.
- 33:38 – 36:17
Strength AND Compassion on the Street
- AAAngela Averiett
... having that confidence to know that I can break down and cry in front of you-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- AAAngela Averiett
... and that I'm a human and it's okay to deal with that emotion, that translates into I'm out on the street dealing with someone who, um, I don't know, just robbed a convenience store.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- AAAngela Averiett
Well, does that mean that I need to be a hard ass and be rough with that person and use excessive force or treat them like garbage? Absolutely not. I remember I arrested this robbery suspect. He, he robbed a gas station, and I remember just being so happy. I was like, "Hell yeah, we got him in custody. We found his gun. He ditched it right before I pulled him over." And I, I'll never forget this. He said, "I did it because my grandmother needs medicine." Ugh, it's gonna make me cry. It made me, uh... It made me feel so bad because he was so desperate that he had to go rob a gas station to get money to buy his grandmother's medication. So when I talk about humanity-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- AAAngela Averiett
... and authenticity and being vulnerable, well, if we don't have compassion for our fellow man, if we don't have compassion for each other, then that translates to me to having a negative attitude and having a negative relationship with our communities. But if we start on the inside and build that safe space and encourage our officers to be authentic... And look, I'm, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm tearing up talking to you right now. I just feel like it makes us more whole as humans-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- AAAngela Averiett
... and allows us the ability to show compassion when we're dealing with people out on the street fighting crime.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think you're dealing, you... This is a perfect example, and I think you are the embodiment of what we're doing at The Curve, uh, our, our, our, our organization. Which is one of the things we realized is that, you know, purpose is a thing.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
And companies have to ask themselves, "Why do we exist?" You know? And we realize as a profession, policing, the question is, why do we need police? Like, what's the purpose of police? And most people say to enforce the law, to catch bad guys. Which is true.
- AAAngela Averiett
Absolutely.
- SSSimon Sinek
And that's one of the things police do for sure, but it's not everything police do.
- AAAngela Averiett
No, not at all.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's, and it might be a significant thing that police do, one of the most important things police do, but it's still not everything, and we're defining an entire profession by one of the capabilities, you know? And none of us wanna be defined by our work. Like, nobody wants to be told your identity, like your identity as a human being-
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes, is tied to your profession
- SSSimon Sinek
... is, is, is your, is you're a lawyer. Right?
- AAAngela Averiett
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, no, that's something I do.
- AAAngela Averiett
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's not who I am. And cops had no sense of purpose other than many of the
- 36:17 – 40:00
Redefining the Purpose of Police: Protect the Vulnerable
- SSSimon Sinek
functions.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes, the technical side.
- SSSimon Sinek
The technical side. They even called themselves, you even call yourselves law enforcement. That's just one thing that police do.
- AAAngela Averiett
Correct.
- SSSimon Sinek
So the whole identity was to one thing. And so we recognized that police need an identity, and we w- and we asked ourselves, "Why do we need police?" And the result we came to, the answer we came to, was to protect the vulnerable from harm.To protect the vulnerable from harm, that's why we need police. And when there's a crime committed and there are victims of the, uh, of that crime, then we wanna protect the victims by getting bad guys off the street.
- AAAngela Averiett
Absolutely.
- SSSimon Sinek
That, uh, gas station burglary, when it's happening, you're hell-bent.
- AAAngela Averiett
Absolutely.
- SSSimon Sinek
There's, there's, there's not a lot of co-
- AAAngela Averiett
Very focused
- SSSimon Sinek
... there's not a lot of compassion. Oh, the... L- l- let's be crystal clear.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
The compassion came after he was in handcuffs.
- AAAngela Averiett
Absolutely.
- SSSimon Sinek
Not before.
- AAAngela Averiett
Absolutely.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's a very important distinction.
- AAAngela Averiett
Absolutely. Thank you for making that distinction.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right?
- AAAngela Averiett
Absolutely.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's a very important distinction.
- AAAngela Averiett
I had a job to do, and I went out and did it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Protecting the vulnerable from harm is-
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes
- SSSimon Sinek
... victims.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm gonna, I'm gonna protect the victims from this, this bad person.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Once the bad person is in handcuffs, they are now the vulnerable.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes. That is correct.
- 40:00 – 50:07
How Internal Culture Shapes Community Relationships
- AAAngela Averiett
people would come up to me all the time, "Oh, I just love your officers. They're so professional. They're so kind. They're so caring. You know, they helped me with this or they helped me with that." That's where the bridge is, right, is when it starts internally and you create that environment, that positive environment, I think that it makes our officers have a more healthy relationship with our community. [laughs] I'm, I'm kinda laughing at your, your cynical question earlier about, well, you know, if I had to pick you, Ms. Vulnerable, over this person, you know, go out and arrest people-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- AAAngela Averiett
... you'd pick the, the guy that's saying, "Let's, let's arrest everyone." Don't get me wrong, Simon. I'm not here today because I'm just, you know, this mushy teddy bear who [laughs] -
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. You don't make, you don't, you don't m- you don't make chief, you don't make chief-
- AAAngela Averiett
You don't make chief from-
- SSSimon Sinek
... for unicorns and rainbows.
- AAAngela Averiett
Absolutely.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- AAAngela Averiett
I realize that we have a job to do, and it's a tough job. And it's an ugly job sometimes, and we have to do it. Police work ain't pretty. At the same time, that doesn't mean that we have to be savages.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it's human beings doing that job.
- AAAngela Averiett
Correct.
- SSSimon Sinek
And human beings on the receiving end of that job.
- AAAngela Averiett
Absolutely. But human beings that-
- SSSimon Sinek
Human beings serving human beings.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes. Human beings that have the same problems that people outside this uniform have as well.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAngela Averiett
I think that's another part that people don't quite understand. I'm not superhuman 'cause I have this uniform on. Um, I have the same issues and problems that everyone else does.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAngela Averiett
Right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Which is why alcoholism and, and suicide are higher than the national averages-
- AAAngela Averiett
Very high
- SSSimon Sinek
... in policing because the coping mechanisms-
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes
- SSSimon Sinek
... aren't there. If you can't feel psychologically safe amongst your own, who understand the stresses, and who aren't politicizing you, and aren't-
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes
- SSSimon Sinek
... screaming and yelling at you, if you can't feel safe in that safe place, well, then where can you feel safe? And the answer is you don't.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Which is why you turn to alcohol or, in the worst cases, uh, uh, suicide is the, is the best solution.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Measuring, uh, good corp- culture in policing is very hard. Uh, not, not different to companies. The reason we over-index on measuring money in companies is 'cause it's easy to measure, and the mushy, mushy stuff that people think is mushy, mushy-
- 50:07 – 1:04:59
Crime Stats vs Community Trust: What Really Matters
- AAAngela Averiett
But Simon, if we are driving arrests and tickets, and our crime stats are fantastic, and crime is down, you know, 30%, but what if the community doesn't trust us? How do we measure that? If the community doesn't trust us, it doesn't matter what the crime stats are saying. Look at Ferguson. Ferguson, they had a system of government where they made their revenue based on tickets.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- AAAngela Averiett
Right? And when people couldn't pay their tickets, then their tickets turned into warrants, right? And so people had to pay all this money, all these fines to get their, their tickets cleared, and that was what the city government ran off. Do you think the people in Ferguson trusted their police department, right? They were revenue generators.
- SSSimon Sinek
And this is, and this is not a color income thing. This is-
- AAAngela Averiett
No. No
- SSSimon Sinek
... anybody on the receiving end of a ticket.
- AAAngela Averiett
Absolutely.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAngela Averiett
You know, we can talk about data, we can talk a- about stats. I think there is some relevance and some importance in that, right? But at the end of the day, if, if the people that we serve don't trust us, then nothing else matters.
- SSSimon Sinek
So how do we measure trust in a police force? 'Cause I agree with you, it's both.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Money matters in a company.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
But it matters in addition to, not instead of.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yes, exactly.
- SSSimon Sinek
So-
- AAAngela Averiett
In addition to
- SSSimon Sinek
... so the-
- AAAngela Averiett
Correct
- SSSimon Sinek
... so if we agree that the stats matter also, but if we don't have another measurement for the thing that does matter, then all we're gonna do is focus on the one. How do we measure trust, especially when it's so highly emotional?
- AAAngela Averiett
It is very emotional. It's very personal. And-
- SSSimon Sinek
Re- you know, stats be damned, as we said before.
- AAAngela Averiett
Yeah. We measure that by several factors. Let's say, does our city have civilian oversight? Yes, we have civilian oversight in San Leandro. Why? Because our community didn't trust us, right? So but that's not a negative thing. I actually think civilian oversight is actually good, and I know people are gonna hate me for saying that, but I think there's some value in it. I also think, uh, when a police department has a community event, does the community show up? So for instance, we just celebrated National Night Out. That's a nationwide community event where people have block parties, and the police department shows up, and we, we break bread with people. We talk to our community members. We take pictures. It is literally my favorite night of the year because I get to meet so many people in the community. And the, the feedback that we get from the, our community members is phenomenal. To me, that shows that they trust us.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAngela Averiett
Right? They're not, like, flipping us off when we're driving by.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- AAAngela Averiett
They're inviting us to come into their homes and eat food with them. How powerful is that?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AAAngela Averiett
If you don't trust someone, you don't allow them into your house.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
Episode duration: 1:05:00
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