Simon SinekDoes Gender Change How We Lead? with retired colonel DeDe Halfhill | A Bit of Optimism Podcast
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
40 min read · 8,065 words- 0:00 – 7:36
What is "female leadership?"
- DHDeDe Halfhill
I would say I'm only maybe 20% recovered. I'm still a really bad fixer.
- SSSimon Sinek
Hmm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
I mean, I'm a good fixer. I think my ideas are amazing. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] Traditional male characteristics are things like aggression or decisiveness. Traditional female characteristics are things like patience, empathy. We don't actually need more female leaders. What we need is more leaders who act like females, and women just happen to be better at that, which is why I'm excited to talk to DeDe Halfhill. She is a powerhouse and a badass. She was in the Air Force for over 25 years, and she advised some of the most senior leaders in the military, from chiefs of staff to the chairman of the joint chiefs. She was a leader in a profession dominated by men and machismo. As she was learning to be a leader, she could have followed their model, but she didn't. She forged her own, one built on clarity, vulnerability, and a deep understanding of what truly inspires people to follow. This is actually not about men versus women. This is about finding the right traits that make any of us, all of us, better leaders. This is A Bit of Optimism. You and I have known each other a very long time.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
A long time.
- SSSimon Sinek
Too long.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
No, not too long. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Some would argue. In fact, I met you probably three years before Start With Why was a TED Talk or a book or anything like that.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
In fact, I think you are more responsible for my relationship with the military than almost anybody else.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's true. You were forced to be in a meeting that I was there.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Well, I wasn't, I wasn't forced. I was excited to be there.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
I wasn't excited to see you.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- DHDeDe Halfhill
I was excited to have the conversation because I'd spent years trying to get to these leaders-
- SSSimon Sinek
Ah
- DHDeDe Halfhill
... and you were there to help pave the inroads for that.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's true. Okay. You and I have had this conversation many times about what is female leadership.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
25 years in the Air Force, and you left just recently.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You grew up in a very male-dominated machismo world, and I'm very curious if there is such a thing as female leadership.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
I would say yes and no. You know, I think I shared a story with you about just prior to going to Iraq, and I was gonna be taking command for the very first time. This was my second tour to Iraq. So I wasn't necessarily nervous about going to Iraq, but I had some apprehension about going into command, what I didn't know. I didn't grow up in the world of the squadron I was gonna be commanding. And so I had reached out to a female leader I very much respected and admired. She's amazing. And I said, "Listen, I'm getting ready to go take command. What do I need to know as a woman?" And she said, "Nothing. Leadership is leadership." And I thought, "Oh, okay. Great." So I went over to Iraq, and I was in command, and I was constantly butting up against things that just didn't feel right. Like, I felt like something was off. Like, I had one captain at one point, we were having struggles with our dining facility, and I said like, "Hey, we really gotta get this in check." Backstory, it was all about Cocoa Puffs. I had a commander who was anti-Cocoa Puffs, but we don't have time to go into that today.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- DHDeDe Halfhill
And he said, "All over it, ma'am. I got this." And I was like, "Oh, okay." I didn't, you know, think much of it. And then a couple weeks later, the Cocoa Puffs were still there, and I asked him again like, "Hey, what's going on with the Cocoa Puffs?" And he's like, "Ma'am, I, I told you, we're all over it. We got this." And I said, "Well, I, I don't think you do because Cocoa Puffs are still there." Little moments like that where it just felt like I was being dismissed, where it felt like I was getting these pats on the head-
- SSSimon Sinek
Hmm
- 7:36 – 14:51
Emotional labor in the military
- DHDeDe Halfhill
When I get asked the question, "What was the hardest part about being a woman in the military?" the answer I've come to is the emotional labor. Because I had these skills and I could sit in that discomfort of other people's emotion, people started to come to me, and I would have people come to me from other squadrons who would say, "Hey ma'am, could I get 10 minutes of your time?" And I'd be like, "Of course," right? Because I want everyone to feel healthy and to get through, like to talk about the things that are frustrating them. And what I realized after like a year or so of doing this was that that's real time. So spending all that time when people would come, want to t- when people would want to talk to me about where they were struggling, the time I spent doing that, 'cause I believe in it and I think it matters, is time I wasn't getting to go out and talk to my units. It was time I wasn't getting to do the admin that all of us have to do, wasn't getting through emails. And so it was a real, it, it was a quantifiable thing. And so the hardest part for me about being a woman in the military was not all of the environmental things that people think about being a woman in the military. It was to be the kind of leader I wanted to be. Is it because I'm a woman or not? I don't know. But my ability to sit in that emotional space was time that my, my male peers did not have to expend, right? Because their own people weren't going to them to talk, because they didn't have the ability to sit in this space with them, which means they didn't have that half hour, or they had that half hour to do other things. They had that hour to do other things. That for me, when I look back, is probably the hardest. That was the hardest thing.
- SSSimon Sinek
You told me-
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is, but, but people respond differently to men versus women. You know-
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... you told me about that there was a, a, it was a, an army, I think it was an NCO who was in your command back in Iraq, and he said to you, "You know, ma'am, when a male le- leader yells at me-"
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm. Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... all good, water off my back.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Totally got it. Hop to, whatever he needs me to do. When you yell at me, I feel like my mom's yelling at me.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it's, it's a different response.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so I think when men engage with men and men engage... Like, I think there is a dynamic of traditional mom-dad dynamics.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, is, is that true or is that just unique to him? That if you yell at him, it comes across very differently than if a male leader yells at him, how he responds.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah, I mean, same situation, same time in Iraq, there were three female commanders. Two of, uh, the three of us were investigated for mistreatment of our airmen. A friend of mine was the investigating officer and he said, "I'm not seeing these women do anything I don't see men do every day. But when the women do it, it is perceived to be more toxic than when the men do it." The research shows that when men behave differently than society thinks we should be behaving, we are held to a different standard, and it's used against us more.
- SSSimon Sinek
So what was the behavior? What was the thing that they were upset about that men do all the time?
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Oh, I mean, swearing.
- SSSimon Sinek
Swearing?
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Swearing was the big one.
- SSSimon Sinek
Swearing in the military.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
She sw- she cussed at me. She dropped the F-bomb too many times.
- SSSimon Sinek
No kidding.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
That was the toxic behavior.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
That was it. It was the, the behaviors of get it done, get your proverbial shit together. And when women behaved in a way that we all see men do every... In fact, in most cases, men are rewarded for it. They're decisive.
- SSSimon Sinek
So interesting.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's so interesting, and I think you're right. It's the societal expectations. It's not the behavior per se, it's the expectation and the lane. If we think about what the lanes are in the 1800s-
- 14:51 – 19:58
Why DeDe felt like a failure
- DHDeDe Halfhill
going wrong. I had a day where I went back to my trailer, and the inner story I was telling myself is, "You are the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to leadership. You are a complete failure. Who thought that you could do this?" Like, I had all of the shame narratives running on repeat and at max volume. And I had this moment where, you know, I first had my little mini, like, breakdown, but then I had this moment after talking to a couple friends about it that I thought, "If I have failed, and maybe I have, like maybe I'm not meant to be a commander. Maybe this just isn't my calling. I'll go back to public affairs," which is all about, ag- again, engagement, communication. "I'll just go back to that, and I'll have a g- I'll g- I'll have a great career in the Air Force. So if I have failed, what impact do I really wanna have? What do I want these people who I have been entrusted to care for, what do I want them to know? I want them to know they matter. I want them to know that what they're doing here is not in vain. I want them to know that the time away from their family, the time away from their lives, the danger they are accepting is worth something, and it matters." Because so often, the airmen in my squadron, so often they were the ones who took the brunt of everyone else's stress. I would have a pilot throw milk at one of my airmen at the dining facility because we changed the policy on takeout, right? We couldn't take out containers anymore. I would have my airmen get yelled at because their laundry wasn't done in a timely fashion, even though it wasn't my airmen doing the laundry, it was a contractor. And so they were just always taking the brunt of people's bad behavior, and so they were always getting beat up, and you could see that in their energy. Like, often they would... It, it just felt like we were beat dogs, and I thought, "I want them to know, like, that's not true. That story they're telling themselves isn't true. I want them to know they matter." And I didn't know it then, but it was, it started the journey of the next 15 years of my career because I realized I may never be the best at anything. There are always gonna be moments I'm gonna feel like I'm failing, and who I want to be as a leader at the core is to make people know they matter and what they're doing matters. I think the first thing that happened was I felt better, and when I felt better, I wasn't barking as much. I wasn't as stressed. I wasn't as tied to outcomes because I was more concerned about the people, and you could just see a tangible shift in the way they laughed with one another, the way they came to me with opportunities and new ideas. I could see the way my own officers took a breath, and I think just overall the stress level of the entire organization dropped.
- SSSimon Sinek
But what ended up actually happening at the performance level?
- DHDeDe Halfhill
You can't help but have better performance when you have all that.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. I remember when you told me the storyAnd it's nice to hear it, you know, these 15 years later because you're telling it differently.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Ah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You're telling it with new perspect- But when I remember you telling me, which is, you know, you came in like, "I was gonna turn this place around. I was gonna be the l- this leader. I'm gonna prove everybody they chose the right person."
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
"I'm young, I'm hungry, I got the skills, I'm gonna do this." Rah, rah, rah. Right?
- DHDeDe Halfhill
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
And, uh, and it wasn't working.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Nothing was working. And you told me that for six months, you cried yourself to sleep.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
That you regretted being in the Air Force, you regretted serving your country, you regretted being in Iraq. You had h- you were homesick. You just, you wanted it all to end. And this is what you're saying, which is at, at some point you just accepted that you were a failure, and it was at the point of accepting failure that you said, "Well, screw it. If I've failed anyway, I might as well make it that these people, for the time that they're away with their families, they have a, a decent time."
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
"And prove to them that they matter."
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And things started to change. And you ended up, you did turn it around. It did become a highly, highly successful command, and you went from fighting with those in your command to them f- they would willingly follow you anywhere. And I remember as you were telling me the story sitting at dinner, I remember exactly where we were, too.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Oh, across from the Pentagon?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. When it's Pentagon City.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
There's a little restaurant in that square. It's dar- it's like a pub.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Oh.
- SSSimon Sinek
And we sat in a corner-
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yes
- SSSimon Sinek
... in a very dark, pubby kind of space, and we sat there pretty private so we could talk.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Champs. It's gone out of business.
- SSSimon Sinek
Cha- okay.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, Champ... That's right, it was Champs.
- 19:58 – 28:32
How to lead through loneliness
- SSSimon Sinek
know how you, how you've learned to manage the feeling of loneliness-
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... as a leader or in general. Like, when I say loneliness, what, what washes over you?
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Oh, gosh. I mean, that I'm not alone in the feeling of loneliness, right? Like it's everywhere. Uh, I think I'll tell you what made me feel the most lonely, is feeling like I had no support around me. I think I felt loneliness, but I don't know that I really had the courage to address it until much later in my career, and it was a moment that I was out with one of my squadrons. The story is actually in the book Dare to Lead. Dr. Brené Brown included this story in the book. And I was out having a conversation with a group of my airmen presenting an award, and at the end of the award, I said like, "What's on your mind?" Which is a question I asked regularly. And one of my airmen raised his hand and he said, "Hey, ma'am, when's the ops tempo gonna slow down? 'Cause like, man, we're super tired."
- SSSimon Sinek
Operations tempo.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah, ops tempo. Sorry.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Operations tempo. And I said, "Yeah, I hear you. Like, we're asking a lot of you." And so I asked the group, I said, "How many of you are tired?" You know, and three-quarters of the r- uh, the whole room raised their hand. And I said, "We ask a lot of you. We've been at war for 20 years. When we're not at war, we're at home preparing for an inspection. When we're not preparing for an inspection, we're training for an exercise. Like, there is just always something to be doing, so I get it." Oddly enough, three days prior to that conversation, I had read an article in Harvard Business Review, and it was talking about this organization that went into five different companies that were all reporting high levels of exhaustion, and it wanted to understand what was happening in those organizations that was causing that. And so it spent months talking to their leaders, talking to their employees, looking at their policies, and it came back after two months and said, "It's not that people are tired, but people are lonely." And it's the feeling of loneliness that was manifesting itself as this feeling of exhaustion, that that's the language we knew to use. Because the truth is, we didn't talk about loneliness at work, but we could talk about being tired. That's almost a badge of honor.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Like, "Oh, I'm just so tired. I'm working so hard." But whenever in my career did I have someone, without prompting, say, "I'm feeling really disconnected and lonely-"
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
"... feeling like I don't really fit here"?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
And so I asked my group that day, "If I were to ask you instead of who's tired, who's lonely, how many of you would raise your hands?" And I asked it completely rhetorically.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
'Cause again, not equipped really to have this conversation. And three-quarters of the room raised their hands, and I stood there for a moment, one, kind of paralyzed, like, "Oh, shit, what do I do with this?" But two, heartbroken, because you know this, having spent so much time with DoD, we have an epidemic of rising suicide rates.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
And I knew that because I'd spent my whole career working with senior leaders every year when the suicide data report was released, trying to once again find just the perfect messaging-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- DHDeDe Halfhill
... to reach our airmen, to share with them the tools that were available, the support that was available. And year after year after year, the numbers were increasing, and we weren't getting through. And here I am standing in front of a group of, let's be honest, mostly men, and they are sharing something with me that is a very real emotion, one we don't talk about, and I realize that we're not having conversations at the root level. And because we're not having those conversations at the root level, we are wasting so much energy just dealing with the symptoms because a word like lonely was so uncomfortable for us that we didn't know how to talk about it. I went to wing standup, which is our weekly meeting at the wing level, and I went to that meeting that week and I said, "We need to be talking about loneliness." [laughs] You know, luckily I'm at the table now. I'm not in the cheap seats against the wall. And to watch... I mean, you would not have seen discomfort more than we saw in that room that day.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Like, they were like, "Oh my gosh, why is she talking about loneliness? Like, why are we having this conversation?"And that was the moment when I watched all of my fellow peers and other commanders. When I saw their discomfort, I realized we're never gonna get to the root of this problem if we can't get over the discomfort of language.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
And that was the moment when I realized I have to use the word lonely if we're ever going to be able to show people it's okay to talk about it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Right? Like, I had to, as a leader, go first-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- DHDeDe Halfhill
... in sharing that. So I think that's when I realized this isn't just a word that we should talk about in the dark corners where no one can really hear us. Like, this is the kinda language we need to be bringing out into the light-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- DHDeDe Halfhill
... on a regular basis.
- 28:32 – 35:44
Mental fitness and shame resilience
- SSSimon Sinek
By the way, just as an aside, I hate the term mental health-
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Why?
- SSSimon Sinek
... because it s- it sounds like a goal to achieve. You either have it or you don't. Like, you either have-
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You, like, "I'm struggling with mental health issues, and I'm gonna do the thing so that I can achieve mental health," which is l- all you do, you're gonna do is lose.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
What would you rather call it?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mental fitness.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Okay. Yeah, that's fair.
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause, 'cause it's an ongoing process. It's like physical fitness-
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... is something I always have to do.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Right, right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Sometimes ahead, sometimes I'm behind, but even if I'm in good shape, I have to keep doing it. And so I like mental fitness, which is like my body. I constantly work on my mind, and sometimes I'm super, like, in shape-
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... and sometimes I'm not, and sometimes it's my fault, and sometimes it's 'cause of lack of sleep and old... Just like my body.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so it's just something you work on, and it takes the stigma of achievement out of it.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
From a mental fitness perspective-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- DHDeDe Halfhill
I'm a quick learner, Simon. The work that helped me the most is understanding shame resilience. Anytime we have those feelings or thoughts of, "I'm not good enough," or, "If I do this, who do they think I am?" I learned this idea of shame resilience, which is all about how do I talk to myself, really recognize the stories I'm telling myself, getting outside of myself to normalize them, which is a reality check.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
And if I don't have the conversation to normalize and get the reality check, which is often, like, can we talk to someone and be met with empathy to get a reality check on all the lies I'm telling myself, 'cause I can tell myself a lot of them, some good, some bad. But knowing the work of shame resilience, identifying it, naming it, reality checking it, and then rewriting the story-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- DHDeDe Halfhill
... right, those are the steps of shame resilience. That is the regular weightlifting-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- DHDeDe Halfhill
... of my mental fitness-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- DHDeDe Halfhill
... because I am prone to shameI had a lot of experiences in my past that have made me prone to shame, to thinking I'm not good enough, to thinking I shouldn't do that because then they'll think I'm too big for my britches, right? And so I can very quickly go right to shame. "Oh my God, that was horrible, that w- you suck. What do you think you're doing? Did you see the way that guy in the front row was giving you the eye?" Oddly enough, and you know this, the guy in the front row giving you the eye is usually the one who's thinking deeply about what it is [laughs] you're saying, but that's not the story you hear in your head. And because I now have those tools, and I have practiced them so much-
- SSSimon Sinek
Hmm
- DHDeDe Halfhill
... they have now become close to second nature.
- 35:44 – 41:28
Leaders are those who go first
- SSSimon Sinek
so the reason we call you leader is not because you're in charge. The reason we call you leader is not because you have rank over another. The reason we call you leader, the reason we wor- we use the word lead is because you went first.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You literally went first.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You led the people.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Tip of the spear.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? If you want people to be open with their emotions with you, then you have to go first. You have to find the courage to be vulnerable with a friend if you want to be the kind of leader who can hold the space for somebody who is vulnerable, who finds the courage to be vulnerable with you.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yes
- SSSimon Sinek
A good leader isn't the one that has all the answers. The good leader is the one who goes first-
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... because they've done it.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Can I share a story with you of what that might, what that looked like for me? So this was pre-group command. I'm in an organization, and I have a guy on my team who is supposed to be helping me manage the tasks in the office, and every time I sent him an email, the tasks wouldn't get done. I would send him a list of tasks, and he might do one or two, and the other ones wouldn't get done, and it was causing me a lot of frustration. And so I created this document that he could fill out to give me feedback on what he thinks he did well, what he thinks he doesn't do well, and I sent him the email with the form, and I said, "Fill this out, and when I get back, we'll, we'll sit down and talk about it." And he sent me back an email, and he said, "I don't know if you know this, but anybody, anytime you give feedback to civilians, it needs to be on X and X and X form," which was just basically the middle finger in an email, right? And so that sent me high and right, and I was like, "Oh, game on, buddy." So I went back to the office. I wrote down a six-page memo for record with 68 pages of documentation. Every single time I had asked him to do something in an email, I highlighted it. And so I sit down with him in our feedback session. I said, "This is gonna be a one-way conversation." And so I start, and I'm, like, two sentences into the memo I had prepared for him to read, and he blows up, and he says, "You are the most arrogant, egotistical, know-it-all person I've ever worked for," and he's, like, just going off. And this goes on for probably two, three minutes. And he finishes, and when he finishes, he just takes this, like, deep breath, and even though I was mad and I was frustrated, I looked at him and I said, "Listen, this isn't who I wanna be. I want us to find a way to work together, but it's not working right now, and I need to know what do you think we can do to make that happen?" And in that moment, he started tearing up. And I said, "What's going on for you?" And he said, "Every time you criticize me, every time you tell me I didn't do something, every time you tell me I missed a suspense, what I hear is my dad saying, 'You're a loser. You're a failure. You're never gonna amount to anything.'" And it completely shifted the relationship between us. It never got great, but it definitely was manageable. And I think that's what I mean by, like, you have to go first. I was so frustrated.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Again, 68 pages of documentation. I was armored up, and I was ready to go to battle.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
And in that moment, I had to sit in my own discomfort of us not working-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- DHDeDe Halfhill
... me potentially being a bad leader, me potentially not doing things-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- DHDeDe Halfhill
... the right way. I had to sit in that before I could ever get to the place to be who I wanted to be, but then once I could be who I wanted to be and I opened the door-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- DHDeDe Halfhill
... to showing my own vulnerability, he reciprocated.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Right? Like, that's what I mean when you go first.
- SSSimon Sinek
I get asked this question all the time. Simon, what are the most important characteristics for a, a leader? You know, there's articles written about it. You know, vision, charisma, you know?
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
The same list of things. And, and of all the great leaders I've met, some of them have big Steve Jobs visions, and some of them don't.
- DHDeDe Halfhill
Yeah.
Episode duration: 41:31
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode gVy9W8rZ1KA
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome