Find Your Allies Fast with philanthropist Melinda French Gates | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

1. 0:00 – 6:28

   Change is a chance for growth

   1. SSSimon Sinek0:00

      One of the reasons we make decisions out of fear is, "I don't wanna be uncomfortable." [laughs]

   2. MGMelinda French Gates0:03

      Totally. Nobody wants to be uncomfortable.

   3. SSSimon Sinek0:06

      Like, people stay in bad relationships for fear of just not having a relationship.

   4. MGMelinda French Gates0:11

      Oh, that's definitely true. I've, I've seen a lot of that.

   5. SSSimon Sinek0:15

      Every single one of us has gone through some sort of difficult transition, whether we lost a job by our choice or theirs, whether we moved somewhere new by our choice or the choice of someone else. We often feel lost and powerless, and sometimes it challenges our very identity. And that's exactly what happened to Melinda French Gates. She has gone through transition after transition, and some of them were pretty damn big. And it turns out we have more agency than we think we do. You may know Melinda from her work with the Gates Foundation. She's the author of a new book called The Next Day, and she explores what transition means. And it turns out in these times of feeling powerless, we actually have more control than we think we do, because we can control who we surround ourselves with as we go through the transition. This is A Bit of Optimism. Let's make a transition to talk about transition. [laughs]

   6. MGMelinda French Gates1:19

      [laughs] Okay.

   7. SSSimon Sinek1:20

      What have you learned about yourself as your life has changed over the past few years? What is the life you're forging yourself now?

   8. MGMelinda French Gates1:31

      I've gone through a tremendous amount of transition. You know, I've written this book. I'm not done with transition. I'll never be done with transition. But I wrote this book when I've turned 60. I have two granddaughters. I left a marriage. I left the foundation. I've struck out on my own in philanthropy. And what I've learned is in that process, even though I was leaving things, just I've, I'd left my career at Microsoft to stay home for a while, then I went back to work, there is so much to learn in a transition, and so much growth that can happen. And you find yourself on the other side far more resilient, so, at least in my case, I have. And I think I'm way less afraid of change now. I'm much more like, "Bring it on." [laughs] When you've gone through a lot of transitions and you've taken-

   9. SSSimon Sinek2:20

      Yeah

   10. MGMelinda French Gates2:20

       ... the time to look at them, examine them, see where you've grown, seen where you've made mistakes, then when a change comes, it's, it's not as scary at all, 'cause it's like you've been there before. You've been in a, a s- situation of change, and just when you thought something beautiful might not come on the other side, it eventually does.

   11. SSSimon Sinek2:40

       H- how did it affect your identity of yourself? You know, we define ourselves, too many of us define ourselves by the, the job we have, the title we've got, the role we play, and, you know, a lot of the transitions you're making are the job you have, the role you play, the title you have. You know, h- how does that affect your own sense of, well, yeah, identity? Like, who-

   12. MGMelinda French Gates3:01

       Yeah

   13. SSSimon Sinek3:01

       ... who am I?

   14. MGMelinda French Gates3:02

       Yeah. I observed, so I knew, you know, a lot of people, I started at Microsoft when I was young, when the company was still very young. It had just gone public a couple years before. And I observed in my 30s a lot of men and women leaving the company because they'd made enough off the stock, so they go on to do something else. And an observation that I made was that the women, at least that I knew, tended to do better in the transition than the men did. And I started kind of asking myself why, and just observing over nine or 10 years, and I realized a lot of times women were quitting because they had a child or it was a second child, and they knew what their place was in terms of raising their child. Yes, they had a hard time saying, "Okay, but who am I still as an intellectual working person?"

   15. SSSimon Sinek3:51

       Yeah.

   16. MGMelinda French Gates3:51

       But they were switching-

   17. SSSimon Sinek3:53

       Yeah

   18. MGMelinda French Gates3:53

       ... such a big role identity, whereas the men were leaving work, but then they were, "Who am I after that?" And so I, for me personally, because I made that transition for the first time in my 30s from working woman for nine years to full-time mom, and I'm not saying it was easy, [laughs] I definitely had an identity, a crisis identity in the middle of there, I realized, oh, I'm much more than just one of those two people. And then I start working on boards, and then I start working in philanthropy, and you start to realize you're a whole person, and so I didn't wanna-

   19. SSSimon Sinek4:24

       Yeah

   20. MGMelinda French Gates4:25

       ... have just one identity. But I think if you lived kind of this one identity for a long time, you, your ego gets even more attached to, and then it is a harder transition on the other side. I don't know. What do you see? What do you see about people who've made good transitions or not good transitions?

   21. SSSimon Sinek4:42

       I think this, it, somewhat of what you're saying, which is the women were going to something, right? Now I have the financial freedom to go be the full-time mom that I wanna be or take a little break to go, you know, l- be at home again, right? And yes, you deal with the who am I, and I've seen that many times, which is like, if I'm not thinking every day, am I not a thinker anymore, right?

   22. MGMelinda French Gates5:07

       Mm-hmm.

   23. SSSimon Sinek5:07

       I've seen that happen with some wonderful and successful women. But at the same time, they made the choice, they made their choice to go to something.

   24. MGMelinda French Gates5:17

       Mm.

   25. SSSimon Sinek5:18

       Whereas the way you're describing it, the men are going away from something, which is, "I have the money. I don't need to do this anymore. I don't wanna do this anymore. I'm gonna go into the great yonder." But I, I think the, the, the people who s- make successful transitions are the ones who go towards something, and the ones that are going away from something I think struggle more.

   26. MGMelinda French Gates5:37

       Mm.

   27. SSSimon Sinek5:37

       Because I think also the decision-making, right? I think you're more careful when you go to something, 'cause I know what I want, I wanna make sure it's the right thing. When you're going away from something, you're like, "Ugh, I hate this. Get me out of here," and you take the first shiny object that's not that. We do it in jobs. We do it in relationships. We do it all the time, right?

   28. MGMelinda French Gates5:53

       Definitely. I've seen it in all those forms. And you can even think of one female b- high-level business executive who as soon as she left something, she literally was jumping to the next thing. And I s- I literally said to her at the time, I knew her well enough, "Don't do that. Like, just tell them you're probably gonna take the job, but give you six months," you know? And she jumped-

   29. SSSimon Sinek6:12

       Yeah

   30. MGMelinda French Gates6:12

       ... to that thing, and sure enough, two and a half years later, she stopped doing that thing.'Cause it was just too quick, right? She just, she didn't really know what she wanted. She didn't wanna sit-
2. 6:28 – 17:38

   How to get through your own discomfort

   1. SSSimon Sinek6:28

      So what does that mean to sit in that uncomfortable space, and how are we supposed to do it? Going back to fear, right? One of the reasons we make decisions out of fear is, "I don't wanna be uncomfortable." [laughs]

   2. MGMelinda French Gates6:37

      Totally. Nobody wants to be uncomfortable. And, um-

   3. SSSimon Sinek6:40

      Like, people stay in bad relationships for fear of just not having a relationship.

   4. MGMelinda French Gates6:45

      Oh, that's definitely true. I've, I've seen a lot of that. Um, yeah, I know how I went through it that was supportive of me, so I'll say this in case it's helpful to other people, is I surrounded myself with good friends who reminded me, "We don't know where you're going, but you will be okay. Like, here are the places we've seen you in the past and you've been resilient, and yes, you're sad now, or yes, you don't know what comes next, but you're gonna be okay." And on the, my saddest days or darkest days, I could also go to them and even share the hardest pieces, the grief, the loneliness, all of it. And again, they could hold up their perspective that I'm gonna be fine, right? But I let myself go through those cycles of grief, anger, denial, and you go through them multiple times. You don't just go through them and oh, done, cleaned up with that. That would be nice. I, that would be lovely. But you don't. But so you just, you literally have to sit in that uncomfortable space. And it's also part of why I do talk about openly that I saw a therapist.

   5. SSSimon Sinek7:50

      Yeah.

   6. MGMelinda French Gates7:51

      And I used to think therapists were for people who had something wrong with them or a problem in life, but I ended up... I went in because of a toxic work employee we were dealing with, but in the end I realized, no, no, no, no, and I ended up learning so much about myself.

   7. SSSimon Sinek8:07

      The thing that you said that I think is really important to highlight, I, I think it's more important than even, "I learned to sit in discomfort." "I surrounded myself with friends who..." dot, dot, dot, right? That I... There was an action taking place. That you didn't just sit in discomfort, right?

   8. MGMelinda French Gates8:25

      Mm.

   9. SSSimon Sinek8:26

      It's like you put-

   10. MGMelinda French Gates8:26

       Just-

   11. SSSimon Sinek8:26

       ... the parachute on before you jumped out of the plane. Like, there was some-

   12. MGMelinda French Gates8:29

       Right

   13. SSSimon Sinek8:29

       ... preparation before the difficult thing, and that preparation was, "I surrounded myself with people who knew how to hold space for me to be uncomfortable." And I've seen men who've gone through similar transitions. First of all, I don't think they surrounded themselves in it with anybody.

   14. MGMelinda French Gates8:50

       Mm. Mm.

   15. SSSimon Sinek8:51

       And worse, the m- other men who showed up in their lives to give them advice kept telling them how to fix their feelings-

   16. MGMelinda French Gates9:00

       So-

   17. SSSimon Sinek9:00

       ... how to get over it.

   18. MGMelinda French Gates9:01

       Yeah.

   19. SSSimon Sinek9:01

       They kept telling them, "Get a bigger job to say F you to the man," you know?

   20. MGMelinda French Gates9:07

       Yeah.

   21. SSSimon Sinek9:07

       "Sh- show them-

   22. MGMelinda French Gates9:09

       Yeah

   23. SSSimon Sinek9:09

       ... who's right here." And I have one friend I'm thinking of in particular who he was going through transition, and I, I... When I met him, I didn't know him that well. I don't know, for whatever reason, I found myself at a, at a table with him, talking to him about his transition. It was very raw and very new.

   24. MGMelinda French Gates9:26

       Mm.

   25. SSSimon Sinek9:26

       And one of the reasons we became close friends is I was the only person who said, "Just, just mourn."

   26. MGMelinda French Gates9:34

       Mm. Mm.

   27. SSSimon Sinek9:36

       Just-

   28. MGMelinda French Gates9:36

       That's great advice

   29. SSSimon Sinek9:36

       ... just be sad.

   30. MGMelinda French Gates9:37

       Yep.
3. 17:38 – 24:30

   Why Melinda chose philanthropy

   1. SSSimon Sinek17:39

      So you've done a lot of work in women's empowerment and celebrating women in the world. Beyond the obvious, is there a particular reason that you went down that road and not one of the many, many other roads that somebody who's interested in helping the world and advancing the greater good would take?

   2. MGMelinda French Gates17:59

      I had been working in philanthropy for over a decade and doing large scale grants, um, traveling the world, meeting so many people all over the world on the ground and seeing their lives. And I came to realize that if we didn't invest in women, we weren't getting the most out of our grant-making. We just weren't. Because everywhere you went, all over the world, it was the women who predominantly were in charge of the family. And so she decided, especially in a low-in- or middle-income country, who eats and in what order and what the finances of the family are spent upon. And on the converse side, when she would have resources, she was far more likely, we knew from very good research, to invest in her children than her spouse was.

   3. SSSimon Sinek18:54

      Th- there's such, it's such an interesting point, right? Which is it's not reallyIt's, it's not born out of feminism per se, it's born out of efficiency

   4. MGMelinda French Gates19:01

      Absolutely. For me, this is not an argument about, you know, this is just the right thing to do or it's time. It's an argument born out of, if we want the world to get better, invest in women. And if you're not-

   5. SSSimon Sinek19:15

      Yeah

   6. MGMelinda French Gates19:16

      ... looking at that piece of it... I'll give you a specific example. If we, which we were, were investing a se- in a seed that was more drought resistant or pest resistant for an area. So, okay, the farmers are getting more yield off their farm. They can put more on the market. They can make more money. They can feed their kids more. But what was happening is 50% of the farmers were women, but those seeds weren't getting to them, because guess what? They couldn't go to the person who was the agri-dealer giving out the seeds and selling the seeds. Women, for lots of reasons, were stuck on the farm. So it's like, okay, we're getting half of what we ought to out of this grant making. So yes, it was an efficiency argument.

   7. SSSimon Sinek20:00

      And we know this, we, you know better than I do, Muhammad Yunus, when he started doing his, his microloans, he knew that women that he gave microloans to were more likely to pay back their loans than the men [laughs] by significant, by significant numbers. Um, uh, and so again, an efficiency argument. Um, and, uh, I guess there's an irony to this, right? Because it's the, the patriarchal system in so many of these developing countries where the, the, the husband is, is the, is the alpha of the family, even though the woman's looking after the kids, [laughs] cleaning the house, s- doing the farming. That actually works counter here because the men are using money for other reasons other than their families. So if you wanna invest in a community that ad- advances money further, you give it to the women. I just think there's an irony where the men are supposed to be the protectors, it actually backfires because of the way they spend money.

   8. MGMelinda French Gates20:57

      It is an irony. [laughs] And I would say not just in low income countries. [laughs]

   9. SSSimon Sinek21:05

      Mm.

   10. MGMelinda French Gates21:05

       The world has inadvertently, no, no wrongdoing in it, but the world has inadvertently been set up for men. Look at our own constitution in the United States. Women did not have the right to vote. They weren't essentially seen in the Constitution. So what happened then was we set up a society, even here, where our workplaces were places that became, if you think about after the Industrial Res- Revolution, were set up really for men to go to the office, and we assumed women would take the childgiving, caregiving role, right? So, so-

   11. SSSimon Sinek21:44

       Mm-hmm

   12. MGMelinda French Gates21:44

       ... it got set up that way, but even today, in a high income country like the United States, of all the couples that have children, 67% of them, both parents are working. And yet, we still, in this country, in this day and age-

   13. SSSimon Sinek22:02

       Yeah

   14. MGMelinda French Gates22:02

       ... we are the only country in the world, in the United States, that doesn't have paid family medical leave, of high income countries. And so that means that you're putting a double burden, for the most part, on the women. And so I, I just look at society after society, and over time, the ones that tend to do better is when they start to really make sure that women can step into their full power.

   15. SSSimon Sinek22:26

       So you started doing philanthropy by bringing all kinds of resources to nations around the world, and the investment in women was about efficiency, not feminism. Then, then k- take me down the journey how you got to now and the new work you're doing.

   16. MGMelinda French Gates22:40

       Hmm. Well, so I did the work at the Gates Foundation for 25 years, uh, traveled all over the world, which was incred- I was incredibly lucky to do. The foundation was at a point where it's in very good hands. We have a board.

   17. SSSimon Sinek22:55

       Mm.

   18. MGMelinda French Gates22:55

       We have a fantastic CEO who I've known for 17 years. He's just doing a great job. And then there was a rollback of a law that had been on the books since I was a child for women's rights in the United States. I never, I never thought my granddaughters would have fewer rights than I had growing up.

   19. SSSimon Sinek23:20

       Mm.

   20. MGMelinda French Gates23:20

       And so I started to see, you know, we all started to see what was happening in the United States and, and here I am pushing for women to step into their full power all over the world, and my own country is rolling back. So I felt like, you know, the foundation's in a good place. I've turned 60, and it's just time for me to step into my next decade of philanthropy, and there's so much work to be done here in the United States. Not that I'm not still doing global work, I am.

   21. SSSimon Sinek23:48

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   22. MGMelinda French Gates23:49

       But less than 2% of philanthropy, philanthropic dollars goes towards women. That just shouldn't be. You know?

   23. SSSimon Sinek23:57

       Mm.

   24. MGMelinda French Gates23:57

       Less than 2% of women get a VC to invest in their business. That should not be-

   25. SSSimon Sinek24:05

       Mm

   26. MGMelinda French Gates24:05

       ... in this country. So we're still, in our country, more than 300 years away from gender equality, and I thought, "Gosh, I've been to so many places in the world that look towards the United States, but here we are rolling back, and instead we need to be pushing forward."

   27. SSSimon Sinek24:22

       W- what are the reasons for it? It's too easy to simply say misogyny, you know, or sexism or the system. You know, I'm,

4. 24:30 – 30:42

   The difference between male and female entrepreneurs

   1. SSSimon Sinek24:30

      I... What are the reasons that, that that happens? That so little, like, you said so little VC goes to female entrepreneurs, for example. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm curious as to what the foundations of why it's happening in the first place.

   2. MGMelinda French Gates24:45

      I don't think we fully know, and you have to go sector by sector. But one thing I'll say in the VC sector is... Or let's just say in the tech sector also, broaden it a little bit from that, 'cause I worked in the tech sector. I, I-

   3. SSSimon Sinek24:57

      Right

   4. MGMelinda French Gates24:57

      ... understand that to some extent.It has not been the most welcoming place for women.

   5. SSSimon Sinek25:04

      Yeah.

   6. MGMelinda French Gates25:04

      You have to go all the way back to the Apple II computer and the IBM PC. When the Apple II came out, lots of young girls were actually coding and being on it, but when IBM came out and started promoting the PC, they started promoting gaming and boys' games, and it became very gamified.

   7. SSSimon Sinek25:22

      Yeah.

   8. MGMelinda French Gates25:22

      And so boys really enjoyed that, and so fewer women went into computer science. Then what happens?

   9. SSSimon Sinek25:27

      Right.

   10. MGMelinda French Gates25:27

       Okay, well, if boys are already playing with the computer when they're young and they go into college, they know a lot about it, so women go in feeling like, "I'm learning a brand-new language," right? So you started getting... When I was in college, literally we were on our way up in terms of computer science degrees. We thought it was gonna be like medicine and law have gotten to today, and then it had-

   11. SSSimon Sinek25:46

       Right

   12. MGMelinda French Gates25:46

       ... this precipitous drop. And then what happened was when you got women not going into the field, the f- the industry where they would go to work felt very unwelcoming to them 'cause there weren't very-

   13. SSSimon Sinek25:58

       Mm-hmm

   14. MGMelinda French Gates25:58

       ... many people who looked like them, right?

   15. SSSimon Sinek26:00

       Right.

   16. MGMelinda French Gates26:00

       And so then, okay, who- whose the money go into the hands of? Who are the VCs? They're mostly men. So when they look at these-

   17. SSSimon Sinek26:09

       Yeah

   18. MGMelinda French Gates26:09

       ... businesses that are coming before them, quite honestly, they don't understand some of the businesses that are coming before them from women. They sort of laugh them out of the room, and it's not because they're necessarily doing anything wrong. It's because they don't have the same lens on society that a woman has, right? And so it just becomes this sort of self-referencing mechanism, and the flywheel gets going, and the momentum gets going.

   19. SSSimon Sinek26:32

       Yeah.

   20. MGMelinda French Gates26:32

       And so what you have to do is figure out how do you put something in there to stop it so that, you know, we can make it so more women, their businesses get invested in.

   21. SSSimon Sinek26:41

       I love your point of the, the flywheel, the self-licking ice cream, right? It's the system-

   22. MGMelinda French Gates26:46

       [laughs]

   23. SSSimon Sinek26:46

       ... that perpetuates itself because i- if I look at some of, you know... You s- you look at y- young male entrepreneurs, uh, you know, their standards of success or their, their, the, the bragging rights are how much VC they were able to get and their rate of growth, and yet there's no data to show that a fast-growing company is healthier than one that's not, in fact, sometimes the opposite. But, you know, growth is the metric because it benefits the investors, not necessarily the companies. But that's their metric, right? How much money did I raise, and, and how fast am I growing? Then I look at some of my favorite female entrepreneurs, you know, your S- Sarah Blakely or your Carissa Bodnar-

   24. MGMelinda French Gates27:28

       Mm

   25. SSSimon Sinek27:28

       ... you know, from Spanx and Thrive respectively, and they raised no money. They built their businesses themselves with, you know, the few dollars they had in their pockets. They actively turned down VC. Uh, a lot of m- m- male venture capitalists told them they were stupid. They both resisted the overwhelming pressure to go public because they didn't see a need for it, and they didn't need to raise the money, and they weren't looking for a liquidity event.

   26. MGMelinda French Gates27:55

       Mm.

   27. SSSimon Sinek27:55

       And both of them ra- uh, built unbelievably strong, resilient companies. And w- the sense is is that their metrics, it goes back to the, the same thinking as, as, as before with the efficiency, why you invested in the mothers in the, in the developing world. It's because the way they made decisions and how they spent their money was very different, and you have these female entrepreneurs who are spending their money to actually build really good companies. They're, you know, quote-unquote, "taking care of their families."

   28. MGMelinda French Gates28:21

       Mm.

   29. SSSimon Sinek28:21

       You know? They're investing in the farm. They're investing in, in the things that-

   30. MGMelinda French Gates28:24

       Sure
5. 30:42 – 39:32

   Philanthropy vs. investment mindset

   1. SSSimon Sinek30:42

      VC.

   2. MGMelinda French Gates30:42

      One of the things I've learned from philanthropy is if you're trying to change something, you have to take the long view. You just have to.

   3. SSSimon Sinek30:53

      Yeah.

   4. MGMelinda French Gates30:53

      I mean, as Warren Buffett constantly reminded us, you are taking on the problems society has left behind for a reason. And so-

   5. SSSimon Sinek31:03

      Yeah

   6. MGMelinda French Gates31:03

      ... for me, if I'm gonna try and change an industry, holy smokes, that's not a three-year thing. I'm not just trying to create a product. I could do that-

   7. SSSimon Sinek31:11

      Right

   8. MGMelinda French Gates31:11

      ... try it fast and have a return, but I'm trying to disrupt an industry, so yeah, I gotta be patient about that.

   9. SSSimon Sinek31:18

      When you define yourself, do you find yourself first as a philanthropist or an investor?

   10. MGMelinda French Gates31:23

       Um, [laughs] I would say these days both, but I guess first philanthropist. Yeah, philanthropist first still, for sure.

   11. SSSimon Sinek31:31

       When I meet men who have a liquidity event and make a lot of money, if you ask them, "What do you do now?" They say, "I'm an investor."

   12. MGMelinda French Gates31:41

       Mm.

   13. SSSimon Sinek31:42

       So people who've made a lot of money, their job now is to make more money.

   14. MGMelinda French Gates31:45

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SSSimon Sinek31:45

       That's what they say. Now, I know they give money away as well.

   16. MGMelinda French Gates31:48

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SSSimon Sinek31:49

       They, they, they do philanthropy, but they tell you, "I'm an investor now." When I've met women who've had a, a liquidity event or made a lot of money, they say... When you ask them, "What do you do now?" They say, "I'm a philanthropist." And of course, they invest as well, and I just think it's really interesting. This goes back to this, this, and dare I call it a maternal instinct, but it goes back to, once again, how women and men view money differently, where the man makes a lot of money and wants to make more money, and the woman makes a lot of money and wants to primarily give it away. And again, they both do both-

   18. MGMelinda French Gates32:20

       Mm

   19. SSSimon Sinek32:20

       ... but it's what comes first on the list, and what your identity is wrapped up in.

   20. MGMelinda French Gates32:24

       I have a slightly different theory about that, which is one of the things if you think about, just take, take that off the table and we're gonna come back to it, but think about the sciences.

   21. SSSimon Sinek32:36

       Yeah.

   22. MGMelinda French Gates32:36

       Somebody labeled certain sciences hard sciences, and then they also labeled other sciences soft sciences. Like, you can't prove that out. Turns out a lot of things that got put in the soft sciences bucket could be proved out but were a bit more feminine. I have met a lot of, a lot of philanthropists in my life. Like, I started the Giving Pledge with Warren Buffett and, and-

   23. SSSimon Sinek33:01

       Sure

   24. MGMelinda French Gates33:01

       ... my ex-husband Bill. It takes a lot to switch your brain into philanthropy. Like, I know a lot of people who've done quite well in business or as investors, but it's actually scary, and they don't tell you, but they, they know it. Like, when you talk to them deeply, switching your brain to philanthropy is hard. You're learning a whole new field. You're worried about, "Oh, is somebody gonna take me? Oh, do I really... How, how will I ever measure this? I don't know if it can be measured, that field." And so they label it in their mind soft. And so do I wanna-

   25. SSSimon Sinek33:34

       Yeah

   26. MGMelinda French Gates33:34

       ... look like a soft male? No, I probably wanna look like an investor, right? Whereas I think it's more-

   27. SSSimon Sinek33:39

       Yeah

   28. MGMelinda French Gates33:39

       ... it's just easier for women to go, "Hey, this is what I'm doing," you know? And switching your brain over to philanthropy does mean being open. Part of my book is all about transitions, and you have to be willing to literally, for, I will say for me, it was like a gut punch. Like-

   29. SSSimon Sinek33:57

       Yeah

   30. MGMelinda French Gates33:57

       ... I'm a computer scientist. I don't know anything about biology or global health, but 25 years later, I know a fricking ton.

Episode duration: 39:35