Humble Leaders Lead Better Teams with Retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

1. 0:00 – 1:16

   An intro to Jocko Willink

   1. JWJocko Willink0:00

      There's no one that's a, that's an uber mensch in the SEAL teams.

   2. SSSimon Sinek0:03

      [laughs]

   3. JWJocko Willink0:03

      And so I think that knowing that there's always someone better than you, and you're constantly trying to do your best, and if you're not trying to do your best, you're gonna have problems. So I think that's-

   4. SSSimon Sinek0:14

      I love this

   5. JWJocko Willink0:14

      ... pretty normal. [laughs]

   6. SSSimon Sinek0:16

      It's, you, I, I don't think it's pretty normal. If you've ever seen or heard Jocko Willink, you will know one thing about him. He is big and he is imposing. And if you know anything about me, I am neither big nor imposing, which is exactly why I invited him onto the podcast. It's because I like to learn from people who are nothing like me. Jocko is also a number one New York Times bestselling author. He served 20 years in the military as a Navy SEAL, where he was the commander of Task Unit Bruiser, the most decorated special operations unit in the Iraq War. And so we sat down together to talk about leadership. Here is what I learned. What's made him such an effective and successful leader is actually his remarkable humility. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] You've made a career of sharing some of the lessons you've learned in the teams out to the outside world and helping people better lead.

2. 1:16 – 5:34

   What Jocko learned from the civilian world

   1. SSSimon Sinek1:17

      I'm curious what you've learned since you left the Navy that you wish the SEALs had that you've only learned in the outside world. I'm curious if anything tracks back.

   2. JWJocko Willink1:28

      Yeah, the, I literally completely institutionalized, you know. I enlisted in the Navy at 18 years old and went straight in, so when I got out, I had no concept of what the outside world was like.

   3. SSSimon Sinek1:39

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JWJocko Willink1:39

      When people ask me that question, it really is the fact that when I got out and I started working with civilian companies, the fact that every fac- facet of leadership inside the SEAL teams translated directly to a sales organization or a construction site or wherever, it was, that was the biggest lesson that I learned, was, oh, that human beings are human beings, and leading human beings, regardless of the outcome that you're looking for, regardless of the mission that you're on, the, the human beings are gonna be human beings. And that was the, that was the, I guess, the biggest epiphany for me. But I haven't experienced anything where I, where I've said, "Oh, wow, that's radically different from the way, from leading people in the SEAL teams." And I'll give you one quick example. When you're in the SEAL teams, people think, "Oh, well, if someone doesn't meet the standard or someone's not performing well, you just get rid of them." And when I was in the SEAL teams, I knew that that wasn't true. Guess what you have to do? If someone's not performing, you've gotta do paperwork on them, you've gotta write them up, you've gotta counsel them, you've gotta set them before a board, and even then they might get recycled, and so it's actually very difficult to fire people. Well, when I was in the Navy, I thought in the civilian sector, if someone's not doing what you tell them to do, oh, you just fire them. [laughs] And as soon as I got out, I realized, oh no, you've gotta do paperwork, you've gotta go to HR, and so even-

   5. SSSimon Sinek3:02

      It does, it, it also depends on the company. [laughs]

   6. JWJocko Willink3:05

      It, it does, but-

   7. SSSimon Sinek3:07

      Some are quicker

   8. JWJocko Willink3:07

      ... for the most part, y- you're gonna... And, and it does, it depends, you know, if somebody makes a grievous error-

   9. SSSimon Sinek3:13

      Sure. Sure

   10. JWJocko Willink3:13

       ... in the SEAL teams-

   11. SSSimon Sinek3:13

       Of course

   12. JWJocko Willink3:14

       ... you, you can get rid of that person immediately.

   13. SSSimon Sinek3:16

       Of course.

   14. JWJocko Willink3:16

       A- and I've done that before. But for the most part, they're, they're a lot more similar-

   15. SSSimon Sinek3:21

       Right

   16. JWJocko Willink3:21

       ... than they are unsimilar. And, and that was really, again, if I had some, you know, huge lesson that, oh, well, in the civilian sector you've gotta treat people this way-

   17. SSSimon Sinek3:31

       Yeah

   18. JWJocko Willink3:31

       ... n- no. Or in the civilian sector, they make better progress when they do X. N- no.

   19. SSSimon Sinek3:37

       Yeah.

   20. JWJocko Willink3:38

       It's, it's crazy-

   21. SSSimon Sinek3:40

       Yeah

   22. JWJocko Willink3:41

       ... how much it all truly lines up.

   23. SSSimon Sinek3:43

       I've learned a little bit hanging out with folks in uniform that I've been able to translate and bring to the civilian world as well. Your knowledge is obviously vastly deeper. You entered an entirely new culture where, you know, you had to learn business, you know. How old were you when you left the Navy?

   24. JWJocko Willink4:00

       30, just turned 39.

   25. SSSimon Sinek4:01

       Okay, so hitting 40, right? Hitting baby middle age. [laughs] You know, c- coming out at 40, you're now, "I'm gonna learn business," right? There are people with 20 years head start.

   26. JWJocko Willink4:14

       Yeah.

   27. SSSimon Sinek4:15

       Right?

   28. JWJocko Willink4:15

       Yeah.

   29. SSSimon Sinek4:16

       And so you're learning on the fly, and you're still learning. I'm curious who your worthy rivals are. Who, who are you looking at in the space that you're at and you're like, "They're so good, and I need to learn that"? You know? I, I'm, I always love high performers and how they view the others in their arena to push them to be better. Who are the pacing forces for you?

   30. JWJocko Willink4:38

       When you talk about, you know, looking at other people and seeing them-
3. 5:34 – 9:04

   Where Jocko falls short

   1. SSSimon Sinek5:34

      I, I guess I'm, I'm curious, like, how do you know where you need to do work on yourself?

   2. JWJocko Willink5:41

      Sorry.

   3. SSSimon Sinek5:41

      And maybe it's not worthy rival. J- you know, take the question a completely different direction. How do you know what areas of your own work, personality, leadership capability need a little tweak or a little-

   4. JWJocko Willink5:52

      Yeah.

   5. SSSimon Sinek5:53

      [laughs] Maybe.

   6. JWJocko Willink5:53

      No, that's, that's-

   7. SSSimon Sinek5:55

      Maybe it's just-

   8. JWJocko Willink5:55

      That's a real easy to answer.

   9. SSSimon Sinek5:56

      Okay.

   10. JWJocko Willink5:56

       Like, everywhere.

   11. SSSimon Sinek5:58

       [laughs]

   12. JWJocko Willink5:58

       Y- you know? I, I mean, I, and I think that's another thing is I don't-When I wake up in the morning and look around the world, I'm not thinking, "Oh, I'm here. Oh, there's someone that's better than me at that." I think everyone's doing stuff that's better than me. I wish I was a better writer. I wish I was a better speaker. I wish I was better at social media. I wish I was better at... You, you know, like, everything that I look at, I wish I could do a better job at.

   13. SSSimon Sinek6:24

       Yeah, yeah.

   14. JWJocko Willink6:25

       And, you know, everything from doing jujitsu, I train jujitsu all the time.

   15. SSSimon Sinek6:30

       Yeah, yeah.

   16. JWJocko Willink6:30

       And I get beat all the time.

   17. SSSimon Sinek6:31

       Yeah.

   18. JWJocko Willink6:31

       And I wanna get better at it. But the joke, running joke in my family is with my wife, you know, for the past 20 years, she said to me, "What's your New Year's resolution this year?"

   19. SSSimon Sinek6:40

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JWJocko Willink6:40

       And I say, "I wanna get better at jujitsu and surf more." And I've been saying that for 20 years-

   21. SSSimon Sinek6:44

       Mm

   22. JWJocko Willink6:44

       ... and it's still true.

   23. SSSimon Sinek6:45

       Yeah.

   24. JWJocko Willink6:45

       I wanna get better at jujitsu, and I wanna surf more. But that's kinda the way I feel about everything. I don't feel, I don't feel like I'm really that good at anything.

   25. SSSimon Sinek6:52

       Yeah.

   26. JWJocko Willink6:52

       You know, I feel like I constantly have to try and, and get better. I think that the, the, the attitude of, of, "Hey, I'm not that good at anything-"

   27. SSSimon Sinek7:04

       Yeah

   28. JWJocko Willink7:04

       ... which is the way I grew up, has stayed with me. [laughs] I'm not that good at anything, and so I gotta wake up every day and, and work hard to, to be able to do what I do.

   29. SSSimon Sinek7:15

       There's a humility in the military that is looked well upon, which doesn't really do s- very well in business. I know a lot, a lot of guys who are fricking m- amazing, like, phenomenal warriors, phenomenal leaders, just phenomenal human beings, and they enter the private sector. I've seen it happen so many times. And I make some introductions for them, and I call the folks, I'm like, "So what'd you think?" Right? "Fricking badass, right? Phenomenal, right?" And they're like, "I, I don't know. He... Just seems like he's a little lost. I don't know." I'm like, "Lost? He's one of the most focused guys I know." And it's not because they're lost. It's because they're so like, "You know, it's not me. It's my team, and, you know, I can't really take credit for anything." In the business world, like, what? And it's sort of that, that slight modulation that they have to sort of amp up the, the ego a little bit, just for the business world. And I think this is a really important thing that you're touching on, which is you don't think you're great at everything. You don't think you're great at anything.

   30. JWJocko Willink8:08

       [laughs]
4. 9:04 – 11:58

   There are no uber mensch in the SEAL Teams

   1. JWJocko Willink9:04

      was ever easy for me.

   2. SSSimon Sinek9:04

      [clears throat]

   3. JWJocko Willink9:05

      You know, I wasn't the best athlete. I wasn't the strongest. I wasn't the fastest. I wasn't the smartest.

   4. SSSimon Sinek9:08

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JWJocko Willink9:09

      I got in the SEAL teams. I wasn't the strongest. I wasn't the fastest. I wasn't the smartest.

   6. SSSimon Sinek9:13

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JWJocko Willink9:13

      What you have to do to overcome that is you gotta work hard.

   8. SSSimon Sinek9:16

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JWJocko Willink9:16

      And you've, and so you get humbled all the time. And, and by the way, if you're good at one thing in, in the SEAL teams, there's someone that's better at that thing than you. And by the way, no one cares. If you're a really good swimmer, people are like, "Oh yeah, but you can't do many pull-ups." Or-

   10. SSSimon Sinek9:30

       Mm

   11. JWJocko Willink9:30

       ... if you're a good runner, they'll say, "Oh yeah, but you're not good with a rucksack on." Or if you're good with a rucksack on, they'll say, "Yeah, but you're a bad shot." So there's no mercy.

   12. SSSimon Sinek9:37

       Yeah, right.

   13. JWJocko Willink9:37

       There's no mercy. There's no one that's a, that's an uber mensch in the SEAL teams.

   14. SSSimon Sinek9:41

       [laughs]

   15. JWJocko Willink9:41

       And so I think that always knowing that y- you're, there's always someone better than you, and you're, you're constantly trying to do your best, and if you're not trying to do your best, you're gonna have problems. So I think that's-

   16. SSSimon Sinek9:54

       I love this

   17. JWJocko Willink9:55

       ... pretty normal. [laughs]

   18. SSSimon Sinek9:56

       It's, you, I, I don't think it's pretty normal. I think ye- yes, fact, ev- there's always someone better than you at everything.

   19. JWJocko Willink10:03

       Yeah, yeah.

   20. SSSimon Sinek10:03

       In fact, yes. By n- if w- that's what we mean by normal-

   21. JWJocko Willink10:06

       Mm-hmm

   22. SSSimon Sinek10:06

       ... then as a, as a data point, yes. But as a perception point, I think so often the opposite happens in business, which is you're like, "You're, you're great at that. You're, you're the best at that. In fact, we're gonna make you the hero at that." And somebody, they sort of start straightening up their shirt. And I've made the mistake myself. I've accidentally heroized folks who are really good at what they do, and they start to inhale their own fumes. And, like, a, a year later, I'm like, "What the hell have I created here?" Right? I just was giving you a couple compliments so you'd boost your confidence there, and it goes out of check. And this idea of being okay, knowing, not pretending, deep knowing there's always somebody better, always somebody better at everything I do, and so the only option I have is to keep at it.

   23. JWJocko Willink10:53

       Yeah. Yeah, and it, it really allows you to keep an open mind, too, because if you're in a leadership pos- pr- uh, position, and you go into a room and you're trying to come up with a plan for something-

   24. SSSimon Sinek11:04

       Mm

   25. JWJocko Willink11:04

       ... and if in your mind you deeply know-

   26. SSSimon Sinek11:07

       Mm

   27. JWJocko Willink11:08

       ... in your own mind that you're the smartest person with the best perspective and your plan's gonna be the best plan, it's gonna be bad.

   28. SSSimon Sinek11:13

       Mm.

   29. JWJocko Willink11:13

       Your, your mind is closed. You're not gonna listen to what anyone else says. You're gonna impose your plan on them. They're gonna execute the plan only because they have no other choice, 'cause you're the boss.

   30. SSSimon Sinek11:22

       Mm-hmm.
5. 11:58 – 14:50

   Leaders shouldn't need to prove themselves

   1. SSSimon Sinek11:58

      feel like they have to prove that they're worthy of the title, worthy of the risk, you know, like, you picked the right person, you know? And, like, and that shows up in a little bit of-

   2. JWJocko Willink12:07

      Yeah

   3. SSSimon Sinek12:07

      ... a little too much, a little too much.

   4. JWJocko Willink12:08

      I used to tell the young junior officersYou have nothing to prove, but you have everything to prove.

   5. SSSimon Sinek12:13

      Yeah.

   6. JWJocko Willink12:14

      When you're in charge of a platoon, you don't need to prove to the platoon that you're in charge.

   7. SSSimon Sinek12:19

      Right.

   8. JWJocko Willink12:19

      You don't need to say, "Well, hey, we're doing it my way," or, "Hey, this is my plan." You don't need to do that, and in fact, it's offensive when you do that.

   9. SSSimon Sinek12:25

      Your credibility doesn't come from that.

   10. JWJocko Willink12:27

       No.

   11. SSSimon Sinek12:27

       Right.

   12. JWJocko Willink12:28

       What you have to prove to them is that you'll listen to them, that you'll make a d- d- when a decision has to get made, you'll take all the pertinent points in, and you'll make a good decision, and you'll be able to back them up, and you'll, you care about the team. That's what you have to prove to them. But you don't have to prove that you're in charge.

   13. SSSimon Sinek12:43

       Right. Right.

   14. JWJocko Willink12:43

       So that's the guy that you're talking about that-

   15. SSSimon Sinek12:44

       Right

   16. JWJocko Willink12:44

       ... walks into the room and is like, "All right. I better prove to everyone that this is my idea."

   17. SSSimon Sinek12:47

       Or prove to my, or prove to those above me that they hired the right guy.

   18. JWJocko Willink12:50

       Exactly.

   19. SSSimon Sinek12:50

       You know?

   20. JWJocko Willink12:51

       Exactly.

   21. SSSimon Sinek12:52

       I love that. And I think as you... So I think for a junior leader, what you're, you're learning the fundamentals of leadership, which is you've gotta take care of your team, rely on your team. I think as you become more senior, this attitude that you're talking about, it does something slightly different, which is now, and you said it, which is it teaches you open-mindedness, right? Even if you're good at caring and good at offering that top cover, now what you're learning, and it's, in other words, once you've learned it once, you, it's not learned. It like, it's a practice-

   22. JWJocko Willink13:17

       Yeah

   23. SSSimon Sinek13:18

       ... uh, not a lesson.

   24. JWJocko Willink13:19

       It's counterintuitive to have an open mind.

   25. SSSimon Sinek13:20

       And it's counterintuitive to, to say on a daily basis, "I'm not the best. In fact, there's someone everywhere who's better than me."

   26. JWJocko Willink13:30

       That's the way it is.

   27. SSSimon Sinek13:32

       And I, I, again, like I think the humility is often missed when we teach people like SEAL training because people, high-performing, it's larger than life. E- even the, the movies help, you know? I think people miss that there's a very human, and, and you know this even better than I do. I've cried with more people in uniform than I ever would, did with anybody in a suit. I've hugged more people in uniform than I ever did with anybody in a suit. You know, there's a, there's a humanity, and I guess because the stakes are life and death, but there's a deep, deep humanity in love and caring, and those words, you know, the Marines call them the intangibles. Th- the only way to put it, which is love. Like, like SEALs are high-performing not because they're gorillas. That's just a com- uh, that's just a component to get through selection. The SEALs are high-performing because they love each other even deeper than, than you can imagine. And I would see it happen when I, when I had the opportunity to visit Coronado, and I'd see guys who I don't, I don't even think they knew each other. They would hug like brothers, and I think that's often missed.

   28. JWJocko Willink14:37

       Yeah, there's a lot of things that get missed, and there's a lot of stereotypical, you know, viewpoints that people have, and this is one of the... You, you talked about-

   29. SSSimon Sinek14:45

       It's from the movies

   30. JWJocko Willink14:46

       ... some of the things that I learned when, when I got out. Well, one of the things that I learned

6. 14:50 – 18:33

   How to deal with tyrannical leaders

   1. JWJocko Willink14:50

      that I got, when I got out was that just like I had this impression of the civilian sector that, you know, oh, if you got someone that's not doing what they're supposed to be doing-

   2. SSSimon Sinek14:58

      Right. Right

   3. JWJocko Willink14:58

      ... you can just fire them.

   4. SSSimon Sinek14:58

      Right.

   5. JWJocko Willink14:59

      Well, they all had the impression that in the military, when the commander gives the order, everyone just gets in line and follows the order.

   6. SSSimon Sinek15:05

      Yeah, they just do it. Exactly.

   7. JWJocko Willink15:05

      And that couldn't be further from the truth.

   8. SSSimon Sinek15:07

      Right.

   9. JWJocko Willink15:08

      And so you get this idea that there's this tyrannical, authoritarian leadership is the best form of leadership, or that's the form of leadership that they use in the military, and that's terrible. Now, doesn't it exist in the military? Yes, it does exist in the military.

   10. SSSimon Sinek15:21

       Of course. Yeah.

   11. JWJocko Willink15:21

       Does it exist in the civilian sector? Oh, it definitely exists in the civilian sec- sector. Now, there's a great book that I covered on my podcast. It's called The Psychology of Military Incompetence.

   12. SSSimon Sinek15:32

       Oh, yeah, yeah.

   13. JWJocko Willink15:33

       It's a fantastic book.

   14. SSSimon Sinek15:34

       Yeah. I, I know it. It's wonderful.

   15. JWJocko Willink15:34

       And you know, the, the guy that wrote it was a, in World War II. He was wounded, and then he became a psychologist. But, you know, he points out that the military attracts people who see that authoritarianism from the outside, and they think, "Oh, that's exactly what I wanna be a part of."

   16. SSSimon Sinek15:49

       Yeah.

   17. JWJocko Willink15:50

       And that mentality works, I hate to say it, but actually works well in garrison environments, meaning where there's no combat going on. If we're on the parade field, if I have to, if you've got your platoon and I'm gonna come and inspect your rooms-

   18. SSSimon Sinek16:06

       Yeah

   19. JWJocko Willink16:06

       ... and you're a authoritarian dictator, guess what? The rooms look great.

   20. SSSimon Sinek16:10

       Yeah.

   21. JWJocko Willink16:10

       And everyone's in a perfect uniform, and everyone's cleanly shaved, and I think you're doing a great job 'cause you're a tyrannical leader.

   22. SSSimon Sinek16:15

       Yeah.

   23. JWJocko Willink16:16

       And you barked orders, and you yelled and screamed, but you went and did the white glove on them before I showed up to inspect. So I think, "Man, Simon's such a great leader." That mindset though, that closed mindset, which is I, "Don't give me any input. Clean the way I told you to clean," it works in a non-combat environment. But when you get in a combat environment-

   24. SSSimon Sinek16:34

       Yeah

   25. JWJocko Willink16:34

       ... and all of a sudden you've got variables.

   26. SSSimon Sinek16:35

       Yeah.

   27. JWJocko Willink16:36

       And this is why combat leaders, good combat leaders, hopefully they have very open minds.

   28. SSSimon Sinek16:42

       Yeah.

   29. JWJocko Willink16:42

       Uh, they have to. They have to have an open mind. They have to be very creative. They have to actually be the other end of the spectrum from the authoritarian dictator. And so what happens is in peacetime, things start to lean towards these-

   30. SSSimon Sinek16:56

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
7. 18:33 – 23:37

   Jocko's mutiny story

   1. JWJocko Willink18:33

      in a SEAL platoon, and we had a tyrannical leader. And the tyrannical leader, he didn't have a lot of experience. He'd come from a different part of the Navy, and then joined the SEAL teams at a relatively senior, uh, grade. And in order to make up for his inexperience, he kind of over-indexed and-

   2. SSSimon Sinek18:50

      Yeah

   3. JWJocko Willink18:51

      ... you know, imposed plans on people and didn't listen to anyone. It was my way or the highway. A- and it was just terrible, and we had a mutiny against this guy.

   4. SSSimon Sinek18:58

      Huh.

   5. JWJocko Willink18:59

      And so we all, the, the, the, the enlisted guys in the platoon went before the commanding officer. We went before his boss, and we t- told the commanding officer, "Hey, this guy doesn't listen to us. He's arrogant. He's got a big ego. He's imposing his plans on us. We don't wanna work for him." Which is a mutiny. [laughs] And just so you know, the, the punishment for mutiny in the military is death, actually. [laughs]

   6. SSSimon Sinek19:22

      [laughs]

   7. JWJocko Willink19:22

      But, you know, this was peacetime, and, and the commanding officer was a really, a great guy, and he said, "Listen, this sounds like a mutiny. We don't have mutinies in the Navy. I'm not gonna have a mutiny at my SEAL team. Go figure it out." And luckily, he was a good commanding officer, and so he kinda pulled the thread and started asking more questions of the training cadre to find out what the guy was like, and he fired him three days later. A- and so we were celebrating. You know, "Oh, great," you know, "look what we did."

   8. SSSimon Sinek19:49

      [laughs]

   9. JWJocko Willink19:49

      "We won," right?

   10. SSSimon Sinek19:50

       Yeah.

   11. JWJocko Willink19:51

       And then we found out who was gonna take his place, and the guy that they were putting in to take his place, the new platoon commander, was this legendary SEAL who everybody knew. He'd come up through the ranks from the, the junior position almost to the top of the enlisted ranks, and then became an officer, and then started going up the ranks of the officer. He had combat experience. He was at every different SEAL team. He, he just was a legendary SEAL. I didn't know him, but we all knew his name.

   12. SSSimon Sinek20:21

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JWJocko Willink20:22

       I wrote about him in this book, Leadership: Strategies and Tactics, and I, I called him DC, so I'll call him DC. So DC, we find out that this legendary guy is gonna take over, and one day w- we're supposed to meet him. He's coming after lunch, and we've got our little platoon hut out there, and we're sitting in the platoon hut, and I'm kinda the guy on watch looking for this guy to show up.

   14. SSSimon Sinek20:41

       [laughs]

   15. JWJocko Willink20:41

       And there's guys coming out of the locker rooms. "Oh, that's not him." Another guy comes out. "It's not him." And then f- finally this guy comes out, and I go, "Maybe this is him." He starts walking towards our platoon hut, and as he starts getting closer, I, I look at him, I go, "This can't be the guy," 'cause this guy's, looks like he's about 150 pounds. Can't be him. But he keeps coming towards us. And then I'm like, "Oh, wait, this guy's, like, short. Like, how old, how [laughs] old is this guy, five-eight? What is this guy doing? He can't be a legendary SEAL." Keeps coming towards us, and as he gets closer, I, he's got, like... He's old. You know?

   16. SSSimon Sinek21:13

       [laughs]

   17. JWJocko Willink21:13

       He's an old guy. He had to have been at least, like, 37, right?

   18. SSSimon Sinek21:16

       [laughs]

   19. JWJocko Willink21:17

       So I'm thinking there's no way that this old, skinny, short guy is this legendary SEAL. And sure enough-

   20. SSSimon Sinek21:23

       Mm-hmm

   21. JWJocko Willink21:23

       ... he walks in our platoon space, and it was him.

   22. SSSimon Sinek21:27

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JWJocko Willink21:28

       And we very quickly figured out why this guy was a legendary SEAL, because he walked in, he said, "Hey, sorry to hear about what happened with your last commander. Uh, I'm not worried about it. I'm just looking forward to working with you guys." Right then.

   24. SSSimon Sinek21:41

       Mm.

   25. JWJocko Willink21:41

       Not, "I'm the new commander." Not, "This is my platoon." Not, "There's a new sheriff in town." It was, "I'm looking forward to working with you guys."

   26. SSSimon Sinek21:49

       Yeah.

   27. JWJocko Willink21:51

       And that set the tone. Guy was the most humble leader.

   28. SSSimon Sinek21:55

       Yeah.

   29. JWJocko Willink21:56

       And, you know, not only... So, so I got to see this as a young guy.

   30. SSSimon Sinek21:59

       Mm-hmm.
8. 23:37 – 29:22

   The power of making tiny decisions

   1. JWJocko Willink23:37

      where what you're talking about is there's a leadership vacuum. There's a moment in time, whether it's in a meeting-

   2. SSSimon Sinek23:41

      Right

   3. JWJocko Willink23:41

      ... whether it's on the battlefield, whether it's making a decision, where there's a leadership vacuum. No one is stepping up and taking charge.

   4. SSSimon Sinek23:49

      It's obviously quiet.

   5. JWJocko Willink23:50

      And it's obviously quiet.

   6. SSSimon Sinek23:52

      Yeah.

   7. JWJocko Willink23:52

      Now, when that happens, here's what I do. If there's a leadership vacuum, "Oh, no one's making a decision," I'm gonna pause. I actually want everyone in the room to know and feel that there's a leadership vacuum. I want everyone in the room to goBecause if I jump in too early-

   8. SSSimon Sinek24:10

      Right

   9. JWJocko Willink24:10

      ... there's a couple people, maybe you were about to, you know, Simon had an idea. He was about to say something, and I just cut him off, and now he's gonna be begrudgingly executing what I told him to do, and he's gonna think he didn't get a chance to step up. So I'm gonna pause long enough, and in combat it might be three seconds. In a business meeting it might be 30 seconds. It might be a minute. If it's a long email exchange, it might be three days.

   10. SSSimon Sinek24:33

       [laughs]

   11. JWJocko Willink24:33

       Right? I mean, I'm, I'm on the CC line, and people are going back and forth, and all of a sudden, you know, I'm gonna chime in.

   12. SSSimon Sinek24:41

       Mm.

   13. JWJocko Willink24:41

       So when that leadership vacuum occurs, I'm gonna give it at least enough time that everybody feels it, and once they feel it, I'm gonna make a small iterative decision to move in a direction that I think is best at that moment in time. And then we're gonna move in that direction. I'm gonna keep an open mind.

   14. SSSimon Sinek25:02

       Mm.

   15. JWJocko Willink25:03

       And we're gonna get feedback on the decision that I make, just made.

   16. SSSimon Sinek25:06

       Mm.

   17. JWJocko Willink25:06

       I'm gonna make the smallest decision I can, by the way.

   18. SSSimon Sinek25:08

       Mm.

   19. JWJocko Willink25:08

       And this is something that, again, this is something that I use to cheat in the SEAL teams, because I was known in the SEAL teams for being very decisive if a decision needed to get made. I would make a decision, but I would make a little tiny decision.

   20. SSSimon Sinek25:20

       Mm.

   21. JWJocko Willink25:20

       But no one's really thinking about that at the time, but if we're, if you and I are getting shot at, or my, our platoon is getting shot at from, you know, somewhere up to the north, well, what's my decision gonna be? Is it gonna be attack? That's one decision. Is it gonna be retreat? That's another decision. Those are big decisions to make. But what if I just say, "Simon, go to the rooftop. Tell me what you see up to the north." Okay, I just made that decision, and everyone goes, "Oh, Jocko's got this."

   22. SSSimon Sinek25:46

       Mm.

   23. JWJocko Willink25:47

       "We're good." Now you go up and-

   24. SSSimon Sinek25:48

       Mm

   25. JWJocko Willink25:48

       ... you tell me what you see, and maybe you see a lot of enemy. Maybe you don't see very many enemy. Maybe we can move forward.

   26. SSSimon Sinek25:54

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JWJocko Willink25:55

       But I'm gonna make a, a ver- the smallest decision that I can.

   28. SSSimon Sinek25:58

       Mm.

   29. JWJocko Willink25:59

       And, and by the way, if the next decision is gonna be made, if someone else makes the next decision, I'm fine with it.

   30. SSSimon Sinek26:04

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
9. 29:22 – 35:08

   Leadership is about relationships

   1. SSSimon Sinek29:22

      know, what a leader is doing is fostering relationships, fostering trust. All the words that we use in good leadership, you know, you find in families and personal relationships. It's very human.

   2. JWJocko Willink29:29

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SSSimon Sinek29:30

      And what, what we're talking about is, like, when we get along, uh, that doesn't mean we have to like each other. It's preferable, but not, not 100% necessary.

   4. JWJocko Willink29:39

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SSSimon Sinek29:40

      But, uh, and this is one of the things I find wonderful about military, which is the trust is so deep that, you know, I'll risk my life for somebody I don't necessarily even like, which I find fascinating. But when the team dynamics work and you get the relationships working, then it works.

   6. JWJocko Willink29:53

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SSSimon Sinek29:54

      And I think a lot of leaders, they're so focused on the goal, they're so focused on the quarterly result, they're focused on even the strategy, that they sometimes forget that there's a whole group of people-

   8. JWJocko Willink30:05

      Okay

   9. SSSimon Sinek30:05

      ... that have to come along to execute it, be engaged, enjoy it. And unlike the military-You know, they go home at the end of the day, or they have got a side hustle, or, you know, they have options. They can quit, and they're not forced to do anything. In the military, there's still a, there's still a military s- structure and, and, you know, they can disengage, of course.

   10. JWJocko Willink30:28

       Mm-hmm. And they can literally just say, "We're not doing this."

   11. SSSimon Sinek30:31

       Yeah.

   12. JWJocko Willink30:32

       SEALs in Vietnam that would get told, this is a classic story-

   13. SSSimon Sinek30:35

       Yeah

   14. JWJocko Willink30:35

       ... that I would hear as a young SEAL.

   15. SSSimon Sinek30:37

       Yeah.

   16. JWJocko Willink30:37

       You know, when I came in, there were still SEALs, Vietnam SEALs in, and if they got some- told to do something they didn't wanna do, this is a classic story, oh, they'd get told, "Hey, go do an ambush on this-"

   17. SSSimon Sinek30:47

       Yeah, yeah

   18. JWJocko Willink30:47

       ... "on this river that's, you know, over here tonight." And the guys would say, "Hey, there's a lot of enemy activity. We don't think it's gonna be a good..." "Shut up and do it." They go, "Okay, cool." They'd get their gear on, they'd patrol 100 meters outside the gate, they'd sit down, hang out for five hours, walk back in the m- you know, when the sun came up and say, "Yeah, we didn't run into anything." So they, they complied-

   19. SSSimon Sinek31:09

       Right

   20. JWJocko Willink31:09

       ... but they didn't actually execute. So even though in the military, sure, there's the, the thought that they're just gonna do what you tell them to do, but they're actually not.

   21. SSSimon Sinek31:17

       Yeah, yeah.

   22. JWJocko Willink31:17

       They're not gonna do that.

   23. SSSimon Sinek31:18

       Yeah.

   24. JWJocko Willink31:18

       Another great, you know, you brought up-

   25. SSSimon Sinek31:20

       It's, it's, it's quiet quitting

   26. JWJocko Willink31:21

       ... you, you brought up Band of Brothers. That's another great scene that I bring up quite often is, you know, there's the, the scene in the end of Band of Brothers where he gets told, "Hey, go do a reconnaissance across the river."

   27. SSSimon Sinek31:31

       Yeah.

   28. JWJocko Willink31:32

       And Dick Winter says, "Hey, I don't really think we should do that." "Hey, shut up and go do it." He says, "Okay." They go do it. They take a casualty. I think a guy even gets killed.

   29. SSSimon Sinek31:38

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. JWJocko Willink31:39

       They come back, "Hey, we didn't see anything." And by the way, the war is all but over at this point.
10. 35:08 – 38:12

    Jocko talks about military brotherhood

    1. SSSimon Sinek35:08

       you miss the brotherhood? Have you been able to find it back out in the, out in the civilian world?

    2. JWJocko Willink35:12

       Well, I mean, I have a company called Echelon Front, and we work with a bunch of our guys. [laughs] I mean, literally all-

    3. SSSimon Sinek35:18

       It's the guys

    4. JWJocko Willink35:19

       ... the guys. It's the guys. Now, we have other people as well.

    5. SSSimon Sinek35:21

       Sure, sure, sure.

    6. JWJocko Willink35:21

       You know, we brought in a bunch of other people, but those people understand, too, and we're all in the same, you know, mindset of trying to share these lessons with as many people as we can. But listen, I'm not gonna lie to you. Do I miss being, uh, in a SEAL platoon? 100%.

    7. SSSimon Sinek35:37

       Yeah.

    8. JWJocko Willink35:38

       There's nothing better. It's the best job in the world.

    9. SSSimon Sinek35:39

       Yeah.

    10. JWJocko Willink35:40

        There's nothing better. I will miss that forever. I w- I knew it at the time.

    11. SSSimon Sinek35:44

        Yeah.

    12. JWJocko Willink35:45

        You know, I'm, I'm lucky enough that, you know, when I was in charge of a, of a, of a SEAL task unit when I was a platoon commander, I was older because I had been enlisted, so I knew that this was as good as it's gonna get, and I relished every single day-

    13. SSSimon Sinek35:58

        Yeah

    14. JWJocko Willink35:58

        ... as much as I possibly could, and it broke my heart every day [laughs] that, that got ticked off the calendar that it was that much further away from, from being my life.

    15. SSSimon Sinek36:07

        Yeah.

    16. JWJocko Willink36:08

        But it's the best job in the world, and it, uh, and I miss it every single day.

    17. SSSimon Sinek36:11

        That's the one thing every vet I've ever metWhether they loved the military or hated the military, they all miss the brotherhood and the sisterhood, and they've never found it in the outside world. Not a one

    18. JWJocko Willink36:20

        I, I was in a call with... There's a, the, the, the Army unit that I worked for in Ramadi, it was my last deployment, uh, the, the Ready First Brigade, the First Armored Division, and we're, we're having a big reunion in Texas. And we were on a call the other day. So it was basically like the, the battalion commanders and the brigade commander, and all these, these guys are now retired generals and colonels, and, but it, it was... I, I noticed it three minutes into the call. These were the guys that we would have brigade meetings, right?

    19. SSSimon Sinek36:51

        And how big is a brigade?

    20. JWJocko Willink36:52

        Brigades, there was 5,600-

    21. SSSimon Sinek36:54

        Okay

    22. JWJocko Willink36:54

        ... people. But these, these brigade meetings that we had, which we, we had probably twice a week-

    23. SSSimon Sinek37:00

        Mm-hmm

    24. JWJocko Willink37:01

        ... you know, where people are going through who was wounded, who was killed, what, what problems we were having. They were the most, had the heaviest gravity in these meetings. And for a moment, you know, I thought about all those meetings where we'd be talking about y- you know, what, when the memorial service was for a soldier or a marine that was killed. It was heartbreaking. And, and then the determination to make a difference in that city, and then you fast-forward, it's coming up on 20 years. It'll be the 20-year reunion, and here was this group of, of, of men that I was in this Zoom call with.

    25. SSSimon Sinek37:35

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JWJocko Willink37:37

        And instantly, I just felt, you know, this, this camaraderie-

    27. SSSimon Sinek37:42

        Mm

    28. JWJocko Willink37:42

        ... that was, was just awesome. It was awesome to be s- sitting on a Zoom call with these guys who, who I'd sat in a room with and been on the battlefield with, you know? Colonel McFarlane, just each one of these guys, I'd been out there on the battlefield with them while we're doing things.

    29. SSSimon Sinek37:56

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JWJocko Willink37:57

        And yes, I... Do I miss that? I miss it every single day. It was a terrible time.
11. 38:12 – 44:19

    Jocko's favorite moment from his career

    1. SSSimon Sinek38:13

       Is there a mission that you did in the teams or something that you've done outside the teams that you wish all the things you do in, from this point on will be more like that? And it doesn't have to have been successful commercially or militarily, but when you look back at it, you're like, "That, that one is the one that stands out. I w- I want that feeling."

    2. JWJocko Willink38:32

       There was a moment in time. So I was in Task Unit Commander. This is 2006. We did a six-month deployment. We're probably five months into deployment, and, you know, we had taken casualties. We lost guys. It was a very difficult deployment. And towards the end of that deployment, I forget even what the mission was, but we were patrolling through the street, and we were leaving somewhere. I was out there as a ground force commander, so I'm, I'm the senior guy in charge, but it's not- nothing big is happening. And I remember, you know, running back, and I'm holding a corner, and as I'm holding a corner, I'm, I'm kinda watching the, the, the guys. And they were so good and so squared away.

    3. SSSimon Sinek39:13

       Mm.

    4. JWJocko Willink39:13

       And it just looked like... It just looked beautiful. And just to see this, this group of guys-

    5. SSSimon Sinek39:23

       Mm

    6. JWJocko Willink39:23

       ... that were so honed and so good and so focused, and I remember watching, just thinking to myself, "This is it. This is the high point of my life right here, being a part of this crew."

    7. SSSimon Sinek39:34

       But you, you've had good teams. You've had good missions. You've sat back and watched the thing work, as you're describing. What was it about this patrol that stands out from all the other patrols where it worked as well?

    8. JWJocko Willink39:47

       It was a combination of the fact that because in that particular moment everything was going fine, so I didn't really... I wasn't looking for that leadership vacuum. I was ver- I was detached. I was able to just be, uh, be, be almost an observer.

    9. SSSimon Sinek40:02

       So it was a perfect alignment of events that you could take that-

    10. JWJocko Willink40:04

        Yeah

    11. SSSimon Sinek40:04

        ... that, that beat, that beat

    12. JWJocko Willink40:05

        Just was watching and just getting to see. And w- you know, whatever the, the actual tactical terrain was-

    13. SSSimon Sinek40:11

        Sure

    14. JWJocko Willink40:11

        ... set me up in a spot where I could see, and I could watch, and I could say, "Dang." I, you know, for... I wasn't worried about anything, and I just was watching, going, "Yeah, this is as good as it gets."

    15. SSSimon Sinek40:20

        That's great. Give me an early specific happy childhood memory, specific, that I can relive with you.

    16. JWJocko Willink40:26

        I got one for you.

    17. SSSimon Sinek40:27

        Okay.

    18. JWJocko Willink40:28

        And, and, um, I was playing soccer.

    19. SSSimon Sinek40:31

        This is specific?

    20. JWJocko Willink40:31

        Yep, this is specific.

    21. SSSimon Sinek40:32

        Okay.

    22. JWJocko Willink40:32

        I was playing soccer, and my dad was coaching the game. Somebody kicked a ball, and it hit me in the face, and the, uh, my nose started bleeding, and so there's blood going everywhere, and my dad just left me in the game, like no factor. "Keep playing." And I just remember thinking, "All right. Uh, that's how we roll." [laughs]

    23. SSSimon Sinek40:53

        And, and what was it about that, that of all the memories you had in your normal childhood-

    24. JWJocko Willink40:58

        Yeah

    25. SSSimon Sinek40:58

        ... what was it about that memory that makes you smile and want me, want to tell me now?

    26. JWJocko Willink41:02

        I, I think it was a little foreshadowing-

    27. SSSimon Sinek41:05

        Yeah

    28. JWJocko Willink41:05

        ... of just, you know, "Hey, I'm gonna keep going."

    29. SSSimon Sinek41:08

        Yeah.

    30. JWJocko Willink41:08

        "And that's what we're gonna do."

Episode duration: 44:22