Humble Leaders Lead Better Teams with Retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Jocko Willink 0:00 There's no one that's a, that's an uber mensch in the SEAL teams.

Simon Sinek 0:03 [laughs]

Jocko Willink 0:03 And so I think that knowing that there's always someone better than you, and you're constantly trying to do your best, and if you're not trying to do your best, you're gonna have problems. So I think that's-

Simon Sinek 0:14 I love this

Jocko Willink 0:14 ... pretty normal. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 0:16 It's, you, I, I don't think it's pretty normal. If you've ever seen or heard Jocko Willink, you will know one thing about him. He is big and he is imposing. And if you know anything about me, I am neither big nor imposing, which is exactly why I invited him onto the podcast. It's because I like to learn from people who are nothing like me. Jocko is also a number one New York Times bestselling author. He served 20 years in the military as a Navy SEAL, where he was the commander of Task Unit Bruiser, the most decorated special operations unit in the Iraq War. And so we sat down together to talk about leadership. Here is what I learned. What's made him such an effective and successful leader is actually his remarkable humility. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] You've made a career of sharing some of the lessons you've learned in the teams out to the outside world and helping people better lead.

Simon Sinek 1:17 I'm curious what you've learned since you left the Navy that you wish the SEALs had that you've only learned in the outside world. I'm curious if anything tracks back.

Jocko Willink 1:28 Yeah, the, I literally completely institutionalized, you know. I enlisted in the Navy at 18 years old and went straight in, so when I got out, I had no concept of what the outside world was like.

Simon Sinek 1:39 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 1:39 When people ask me that question, it really is the fact that when I got out and I started working with civilian companies, the fact that every fac- facet of leadership inside the SEAL teams translated directly to a sales organization or a construction site or wherever, it was, that was the biggest lesson that I learned, was, oh, that human beings are human beings, and leading human beings, regardless of the outcome that you're looking for, regardless of the mission that you're on, the, the human beings are gonna be human beings. And that was the, that was the, I guess, the biggest epiphany for me. But I haven't experienced anything where I, where I've said, "Oh, wow, that's radically different from the way, from leading people in the SEAL teams." And I'll give you one quick example. When you're in the SEAL teams, people think, "Oh, well, if someone doesn't meet the standard or someone's not performing well, you just get rid of them." And when I was in the SEAL teams, I knew that that wasn't true. Guess what you have to do? If someone's not performing, you've gotta do paperwork on them, you've gotta write them up, you've gotta counsel them, you've gotta set them before a board, and even then they might get recycled, and so it's actually very difficult to fire people. Well, when I was in the Navy, I thought in the civilian sector, if someone's not doing what you tell them to do, oh, you just fire them. [laughs] And as soon as I got out, I realized, oh no, you've gotta do paperwork, you've gotta go to HR, and so even-

Simon Sinek 3:02 It does, it, it also depends on the company. [laughs]

Jocko Willink 3:05 It, it does, but-

Simon Sinek 3:07 Some are quicker

Jocko Willink 3:07 ... for the most part, y- you're gonna... And, and it does, it depends, you know, if somebody makes a grievous error-

Simon Sinek 3:13 Sure. Sure

Jocko Willink 3:13 ... in the SEAL teams-

Simon Sinek 3:13 Of course

Jocko Willink 3:14 ... you, you can get rid of that person immediately.

Simon Sinek 3:16 Of course.

Jocko Willink 3:16 A- and I've done that before. But for the most part, they're, they're a lot more similar-

Simon Sinek 3:21 Right

Jocko Willink 3:21 ... than they are unsimilar. And, and that was really, again, if I had some, you know, huge lesson that, oh, well, in the civilian sector you've gotta treat people this way-

Simon Sinek 3:31 Yeah

Jocko Willink 3:31 ... n- no. Or in the civilian sector, they make better progress when they do X. N- no.

Simon Sinek 3:37 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 3:38 It's, it's crazy-

Simon Sinek 3:40 Yeah

Jocko Willink 3:41 ... how much it all truly lines up.

Simon Sinek 3:43 I've learned a little bit hanging out with folks in uniform that I've been able to translate and bring to the civilian world as well. Your knowledge is obviously vastly deeper. You entered an entirely new culture where, you know, you had to learn business, you know. How old were you when you left the Navy?

Jocko Willink 4:00 30, just turned 39.

Simon Sinek 4:01 Okay, so hitting 40, right? Hitting baby middle age. [laughs] You know, c- coming out at 40, you're now, "I'm gonna learn business," right? There are people with 20 years head start.

Jocko Willink 4:14 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 4:15 Right?

Jocko Willink 4:15 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 4:16 And so you're learning on the fly, and you're still learning. I'm curious who your worthy rivals are. Who, who are you looking at in the space that you're at and you're like, "They're so good, and I need to learn that"? You know? I, I'm, I always love high performers and how they view the others in their arena to push them to be better. Who are the pacing forces for you?

Jocko Willink 4:38 When you talk about, you know, looking at other people and seeing them-

Simon Sinek 4:41 Yeah

Jocko Willink 4:41 ... either as competitives or worthy rivals, right?

Simon Sinek 4:46 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 4:46 Honestly, I don't, I don't, I, I don't know if I just, uh-

Simon Sinek 4:49 It doesn't fa- it doesn't even make sense to you.

Jocko Willink 4:51 It d- it doesn't, it, it's hard for me to relate to that-

Simon Sinek 4:53 Well, then how do you know where you're falling short?

Jocko Willink 4:55 Well, part of the reason is 'cause I think when I see someone that's doing something really well-

Simon Sinek 4:59 Yeah

Jocko Willink 5:00 ... I don't think, "Oh, how can I take their job?"

Simon Sinek 5:04 No, of course.

Jocko Willink 5:05 I, I think of the, that, that's cool what they're doing. Are there any gaps that I could fill? You know, it's a, it's a, a story that I was on, I was on my last deployment and, and this Army group came in, and they had really good capabilities. And one of my platoon commanders was, said, you know, "Hey, these guys, they've got these capabilities. They might take our job." And I said, "Well, do you think they're, they might be better than you?"

Simon Sinek 5:28 That makes sense.

Jocko Willink 5:29 And he goes, "Well, they might be better at that job."

Simon Sinek 5:30 Then they should have the job. Yeah.

Jocko Willink 5:30 And I said, "Let them have the job, and we'll, I'll find you something else to do."

Simon Sinek 5:33 And I'm, so

Simon Sinek 5:34 I, I guess I'm, I'm curious, like, how do you know where you need to do work on yourself?

Jocko Willink 5:41 Sorry.

Simon Sinek 5:41 And maybe it's not worthy rival. J- you know, take the question a completely different direction. How do you know what areas of your own work, personality, leadership capability need a little tweak or a little-

Jocko Willink 5:52 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 5:53 [laughs] Maybe.

Jocko Willink 5:53 No, that's, that's-

Simon Sinek 5:55 Maybe it's just-

Jocko Willink 5:55 That's a real easy to answer.

Simon Sinek 5:56 Okay.

Jocko Willink 5:56 Like, everywhere.

Simon Sinek 5:58 [laughs]

Jocko Willink 5:58 Y- you know? I, I mean, I, and I think that's another thing is I don't-When I wake up in the morning and look around the world, I'm not thinking, "Oh, I'm here. Oh, there's someone that's better than me at that." I think everyone's doing stuff that's better than me. I wish I was a better writer. I wish I was a better speaker. I wish I was better at social media. I wish I was better at... You, you know, like, everything that I look at, I wish I could do a better job at.

Simon Sinek 6:24 Yeah, yeah.

Jocko Willink 6:25 And, you know, everything from doing jujitsu, I train jujitsu all the time.

Simon Sinek 6:30 Yeah, yeah.

Jocko Willink 6:30 And I get beat all the time.

Simon Sinek 6:31 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 6:31 And I wanna get better at it. But the joke, running joke in my family is with my wife, you know, for the past 20 years, she said to me, "What's your New Year's resolution this year?"

Simon Sinek 6:40 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 6:40 And I say, "I wanna get better at jujitsu and surf more." And I've been saying that for 20 years-

Simon Sinek 6:44 Mm

Jocko Willink 6:44 ... and it's still true.

Simon Sinek 6:45 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 6:45 I wanna get better at jujitsu, and I wanna surf more. But that's kinda the way I feel about everything. I don't feel, I don't feel like I'm really that good at anything.

Simon Sinek 6:52 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 6:52 You know, I feel like I constantly have to try and, and get better. I think that the, the, the attitude of, of, "Hey, I'm not that good at anything-"

Simon Sinek 7:04 Yeah

Jocko Willink 7:04 ... which is the way I grew up, has stayed with me. [laughs] I'm not that good at anything, and so I gotta wake up every day and, and work hard to, to be able to do what I do.

Simon Sinek 7:15 There's a humility in the military that is looked well upon, which doesn't really do s- very well in business. I know a lot, a lot of guys who are fricking m- amazing, like, phenomenal warriors, phenomenal leaders, just phenomenal human beings, and they enter the private sector. I've seen it happen so many times. And I make some introductions for them, and I call the folks, I'm like, "So what'd you think?" Right? "Fricking badass, right? Phenomenal, right?" And they're like, "I, I don't know. He... Just seems like he's a little lost. I don't know." I'm like, "Lost? He's one of the most focused guys I know." And it's not because they're lost. It's because they're so like, "You know, it's not me. It's my team, and, you know, I can't really take credit for anything." In the business world, like, what? And it's sort of that, that slight modulation that they have to sort of amp up the, the ego a little bit, just for the business world. And I think this is a really important thing that you're touching on, which is you don't think you're great at everything. You don't think you're great at anything.

Jocko Willink 8:08 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 8:08 And it's that belief that actually makes you such a high performer. And I think when people lose sight of that, that they think they're great at something, that's when th- that ego, you know? And it, because you, I mean, you, you come in, I mean, you, like I said, you're a f- you're a force of nature. And I think what people miss is that how you actually view your day to day is actually more human. If they copy the, the, the, the, the picture of Jocko-

Jocko Willink 8:38 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 8:38 ... it won't work. It's this that I find the, like, really, uh, beautiful about you, which is where does that come from? Like, what was your... Like, did you have a, a, a, like, was your dad hard on you, like, growing up? Or, like, or is it, were you, like, a skinny kid? Like, what, what, what... Like, where did that, like, uh, where did it come from? You said it, it's been since I was a little kid, and it's never gone away.

Jocko Willink 8:58 Well, when you're a little kid, it's hard to do things, and-

Simon Sinek 9:03 Yeah, but-

Jocko Willink 9:03 ... nothing

Jocko Willink 9:04 was ever easy for me.

Simon Sinek 9:04 [clears throat]

Jocko Willink 9:05 You know, I wasn't the best athlete. I wasn't the strongest. I wasn't the fastest. I wasn't the smartest.

Simon Sinek 9:08 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 9:09 I got in the SEAL teams. I wasn't the strongest. I wasn't the fastest. I wasn't the smartest.

Simon Sinek 9:13 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 9:13 What you have to do to overcome that is you gotta work hard.

Simon Sinek 9:16 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 9:16 And you've, and so you get humbled all the time. And, and by the way, if you're good at one thing in, in the SEAL teams, there's someone that's better at that thing than you. And by the way, no one cares. If you're a really good swimmer, people are like, "Oh yeah, but you can't do many pull-ups." Or-

Simon Sinek 9:30 Mm

Jocko Willink 9:30 ... if you're a good runner, they'll say, "Oh yeah, but you're not good with a rucksack on." Or if you're good with a rucksack on, they'll say, "Yeah, but you're a bad shot." So there's no mercy.

Simon Sinek 9:37 Yeah, right.

Jocko Willink 9:37 There's no mercy. There's no one that's a, that's an uber mensch in the SEAL teams.

Simon Sinek 9:41 [laughs]

Jocko Willink 9:41 And so I think that always knowing that y- you're, there's always someone better than you, and you're, you're constantly trying to do your best, and if you're not trying to do your best, you're gonna have problems. So I think that's-

Simon Sinek 9:54 I love this

Jocko Willink 9:55 ... pretty normal. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 9:56 It's, you, I, I don't think it's pretty normal. I think ye- yes, fact, ev- there's always someone better than you at everything.

Jocko Willink 10:03 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 10:03 In fact, yes. By n- if w- that's what we mean by normal-

Jocko Willink 10:06 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 10:06 ... then as a, as a data point, yes. But as a perception point, I think so often the opposite happens in business, which is you're like, "You're, you're great at that. You're, you're the best at that. In fact, we're gonna make you the hero at that." And somebody, they sort of start straightening up their shirt. And I've made the mistake myself. I've accidentally heroized folks who are really good at what they do, and they start to inhale their own fumes. And, like, a, a year later, I'm like, "What the hell have I created here?" Right? I just was giving you a couple compliments so you'd boost your confidence there, and it goes out of check. And this idea of being okay, knowing, not pretending, deep knowing there's always somebody better, always somebody better at everything I do, and so the only option I have is to keep at it.

Jocko Willink 10:53 Yeah. Yeah, and it, it really allows you to keep an open mind, too, because if you're in a leadership pos- pr- uh, position, and you go into a room and you're trying to come up with a plan for something-

Simon Sinek 11:04 Mm

Jocko Willink 11:04 ... and if in your mind you deeply know-

Simon Sinek 11:07 Mm

Jocko Willink 11:08 ... in your own mind that you're the smartest person with the best perspective and your plan's gonna be the best plan, it's gonna be bad.

Simon Sinek 11:13 Mm.

Jocko Willink 11:13 Your, your mind is closed. You're not gonna listen to what anyone else says. You're gonna impose your plan on them. They're gonna execute the plan only because they have no other choice, 'cause you're the boss.

Simon Sinek 11:22 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 11:22 And it's not gonna go as well as it should, and when they run into an obstacle, they're gonna stutter step because they know that they're just doing what you told them to do. They don't have any ownership of it, so it's problematic. But if you truly think, "Well, when I go in this room with my 10 subordinate leaders-

Simon Sinek 11:38 Mm

Jocko Willink 11:38 ... I know that they're gonna have better ideas than me. I deeply know-

Simon Sinek 11:41 Mm

Jocko Willink 11:41 ... that their ideas are gonna be better."

Simon Sinek 11:43 Or at least they'll have a point of view that I don't have.

Jocko Willink 11:44 And then my-

Simon Sinek 11:45 Whatever it is, yeah

Jocko Willink 11:45 ... and then my mind is open.

Simon Sinek 11:47 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 11:47 And when someone makes a point, and I go, "Oh yeah, that makes sense. Why don't we go in that direction?"

Simon Sinek 11:51 At the risk of belaboring the point, I think this is really, really important for, for, for junior leaders and senior leaders, right? So for a junior leader, I think junior leaders

Simon Sinek 11:58 feel like they have to prove that they're worthy of the title, worthy of the risk, you know, like, you picked the right person, you know? And, like, and that shows up in a little bit of-

Jocko Willink 12:07 Yeah

Simon Sinek 12:07 ... a little too much, a little too much.

Jocko Willink 12:08 I used to tell the young junior officersYou have nothing to prove, but you have everything to prove.

Simon Sinek 12:13 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 12:14 When you're in charge of a platoon, you don't need to prove to the platoon that you're in charge.

Simon Sinek 12:19 Right.

Jocko Willink 12:19 You don't need to say, "Well, hey, we're doing it my way," or, "Hey, this is my plan." You don't need to do that, and in fact, it's offensive when you do that.

Simon Sinek 12:25 Your credibility doesn't come from that.

Jocko Willink 12:27 No.

Simon Sinek 12:27 Right.

Jocko Willink 12:28 What you have to prove to them is that you'll listen to them, that you'll make a d- d- when a decision has to get made, you'll take all the pertinent points in, and you'll make a good decision, and you'll be able to back them up, and you'll, you care about the team. That's what you have to prove to them. But you don't have to prove that you're in charge.

Simon Sinek 12:43 Right. Right.

Jocko Willink 12:43 So that's the guy that you're talking about that-

Simon Sinek 12:44 Right

Jocko Willink 12:44 ... walks into the room and is like, "All right. I better prove to everyone that this is my idea."

Simon Sinek 12:47 Or prove to my, or prove to those above me that they hired the right guy.

Jocko Willink 12:50 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 12:50 You know?

Jocko Willink 12:51 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 12:52 I love that. And I think as you... So I think for a junior leader, what you're, you're learning the fundamentals of leadership, which is you've gotta take care of your team, rely on your team. I think as you become more senior, this attitude that you're talking about, it does something slightly different, which is now, and you said it, which is it teaches you open-mindedness, right? Even if you're good at caring and good at offering that top cover, now what you're learning, and it's, in other words, once you've learned it once, you, it's not learned. It like, it's a practice-

Jocko Willink 13:17 Yeah

Simon Sinek 13:18 ... uh, not a lesson.

Jocko Willink 13:19 It's counterintuitive to have an open mind.

Simon Sinek 13:20 And it's counterintuitive to, to say on a daily basis, "I'm not the best. In fact, there's someone everywhere who's better than me."

Jocko Willink 13:30 That's the way it is.

Simon Sinek 13:32 And I, I, again, like I think the humility is often missed when we teach people like SEAL training because people, high-performing, it's larger than life. E- even the, the movies help, you know? I think people miss that there's a very human, and, and you know this even better than I do. I've cried with more people in uniform than I ever would, did with anybody in a suit. I've hugged more people in uniform than I ever did with anybody in a suit. You know, there's a, there's a humanity, and I guess because the stakes are life and death, but there's a deep, deep humanity in love and caring, and those words, you know, the Marines call them the intangibles. Th- the only way to put it, which is love. Like, like SEALs are high-performing not because they're gorillas. That's just a com- uh, that's just a component to get through selection. The SEALs are high-performing because they love each other even deeper than, than you can imagine. And I would see it happen when I, when I had the opportunity to visit Coronado, and I'd see guys who I don't, I don't even think they knew each other. They would hug like brothers, and I think that's often missed.

Jocko Willink 14:37 Yeah, there's a lot of things that get missed, and there's a lot of stereotypical, you know, viewpoints that people have, and this is one of the... You, you talked about-

Simon Sinek 14:45 It's from the movies

Jocko Willink 14:46 ... some of the things that I learned when, when I got out. Well, one of the things that I learned

Jocko Willink 14:50 that I got, when I got out was that just like I had this impression of the civilian sector that, you know, oh, if you got someone that's not doing what they're supposed to be doing-

Simon Sinek 14:58 Right. Right

Jocko Willink 14:58 ... you can just fire them.

Simon Sinek 14:58 Right.

Jocko Willink 14:59 Well, they all had the impression that in the military, when the commander gives the order, everyone just gets in line and follows the order.

Simon Sinek 15:05 Yeah, they just do it. Exactly.

Jocko Willink 15:05 And that couldn't be further from the truth.

Simon Sinek 15:07 Right.

Jocko Willink 15:08 And so you get this idea that there's this tyrannical, authoritarian leadership is the best form of leadership, or that's the form of leadership that they use in the military, and that's terrible. Now, doesn't it exist in the military? Yes, it does exist in the military.

Simon Sinek 15:21 Of course. Yeah.

Jocko Willink 15:21 Does it exist in the civilian sector? Oh, it definitely exists in the civilian sec- sector. Now, there's a great book that I covered on my podcast. It's called The Psychology of Military Incompetence.

Simon Sinek 15:32 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Jocko Willink 15:33 It's a fantastic book.

Simon Sinek 15:34 Yeah. I, I know it. It's wonderful.

Jocko Willink 15:34 And you know, the, the guy that wrote it was a, in World War II. He was wounded, and then he became a psychologist. But, you know, he points out that the military attracts people who see that authoritarianism from the outside, and they think, "Oh, that's exactly what I wanna be a part of."

Simon Sinek 15:49 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 15:50 And that mentality works, I hate to say it, but actually works well in garrison environments, meaning where there's no combat going on. If we're on the parade field, if I have to, if you've got your platoon and I'm gonna come and inspect your rooms-

Simon Sinek 16:06 Yeah

Jocko Willink 16:06 ... and you're a authoritarian dictator, guess what? The rooms look great.

Simon Sinek 16:10 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 16:10 And everyone's in a perfect uniform, and everyone's cleanly shaved, and I think you're doing a great job 'cause you're a tyrannical leader.

Simon Sinek 16:15 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 16:16 And you barked orders, and you yelled and screamed, but you went and did the white glove on them before I showed up to inspect. So I think, "Man, Simon's such a great leader." That mindset though, that closed mindset, which is I, "Don't give me any input. Clean the way I told you to clean," it works in a non-combat environment. But when you get in a combat environment-

Simon Sinek 16:34 Yeah

Jocko Willink 16:34 ... and all of a sudden you've got variables.

Simon Sinek 16:35 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 16:36 And this is why combat leaders, good combat leaders, hopefully they have very open minds.

Simon Sinek 16:42 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 16:42 Uh, they have to. They have to have an open mind. They have to be very creative. They have to actually be the other end of the spectrum from the authoritarian dictator. And so what happens is in peacetime, things start to lean towards these-

Simon Sinek 16:56 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

Jocko Willink 16:56 ... authoritarian dictators being put in senior positions.

Simon Sinek 17:00 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 17:00 They get promoted, 'cause why? What happens, what happens to the, you know, to the creative, open-minded leader? Well, he was out with the boys. He got in trouble for this. He, they were on an exercise, and he did this radical thing that was outside the rule set, and he got in trouble, and he got written up, and so now he's not getting promoted.

Simon Sinek 17:15 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 17:17 Uh, it's, that's the guy you want in combat.

Simon Sinek 17:19 It's David Schumer's character in Band of Brothers.

Jocko Willink 17:21 It's 100%.

Simon Sinek 17:22 He was great in garrison.

Jocko Willink 17:24 He's great in garrison.

Simon Sinek 17:25 And put him in, in, in the chaos and just fell apart.

Jocko Willink 17:27 And he fell apart. And, you know, what did his team think of him?

Simon Sinek 17:30 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 17:30 He, his team thought of him, they didn't respect him.

Simon Sinek 17:33 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 17:33 They didn't like him. They didn't wanna follow him.

Simon Sinek 17:34 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 17:35 And you know what happened to that guy in real life?

Simon Sinek 17:38 Uh, it, it was, I looked him up. It wasn't good. He lived a lonely life, didn't he?

Jocko Willink 17:41 He, he, he attempted suicide.

Simon Sinek 17:44 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 17:44 He failed.

Simon Sinek 17:45 Yeah. [laughs]

Jocko Willink 17:46 He was blind, and what was really interesting about that is that he, to his death-

Simon Sinek 17:51 Yeah

Jocko Willink 17:52 ... blamed his whole life on Easy Company.

Simon Sinek 17:56 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 17:56 All the failings in his life w- was because of Easy Company, and it just made me think you romanticize your experience in the military.And the things that were good, you just hold onto them. That was the, the best of times.

Simon Sinek 18:08 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 18:08 But when someone has a bad experience or something bad happens, they hang onto that, and that becomes what, what that guy carried to the grave with-

Simon Sinek 18:16 Yeah

Jocko Willink 18:16 ... himself. So yeah, but that's a great example. And then on the other side, you had Dick Winters-

Simon Sinek 18:20 Yeah

Jocko Willink 18:20 ... who was the heroic leader in Band of Brothers, who listened to his troops, who never yelled and screamed. And you asked about my experience and how I ended up like this [laughs]

Simon Sinek 18:30 [laughs]

Jocko Willink 18:30 Where that humility came from. But I, I was

Jocko Willink 18:33 in a SEAL platoon, and we had a tyrannical leader. And the tyrannical leader, he didn't have a lot of experience. He'd come from a different part of the Navy, and then joined the SEAL teams at a relatively senior, uh, grade. And in order to make up for his inexperience, he kind of over-indexed and-

Simon Sinek 18:50 Yeah

Jocko Willink 18:51 ... you know, imposed plans on people and didn't listen to anyone. It was my way or the highway. A- and it was just terrible, and we had a mutiny against this guy.

Simon Sinek 18:58 Huh.

Jocko Willink 18:59 And so we all, the, the, the, the enlisted guys in the platoon went before the commanding officer. We went before his boss, and we t- told the commanding officer, "Hey, this guy doesn't listen to us. He's arrogant. He's got a big ego. He's imposing his plans on us. We don't wanna work for him." Which is a mutiny. [laughs] And just so you know, the, the punishment for mutiny in the military is death, actually. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 19:22 [laughs]

Jocko Willink 19:22 But, you know, this was peacetime, and, and the commanding officer was a really, a great guy, and he said, "Listen, this sounds like a mutiny. We don't have mutinies in the Navy. I'm not gonna have a mutiny at my SEAL team. Go figure it out." And luckily, he was a good commanding officer, and so he kinda pulled the thread and started asking more questions of the training cadre to find out what the guy was like, and he fired him three days later. A- and so we were celebrating. You know, "Oh, great," you know, "look what we did."

Simon Sinek 19:49 [laughs]

Jocko Willink 19:49 "We won," right?

Simon Sinek 19:50 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 19:51 And then we found out who was gonna take his place, and the guy that they were putting in to take his place, the new platoon commander, was this legendary SEAL who everybody knew. He'd come up through the ranks from the, the junior position almost to the top of the enlisted ranks, and then became an officer, and then started going up the ranks of the officer. He had combat experience. He was at every different SEAL team. He, he just was a legendary SEAL. I didn't know him, but we all knew his name.

Simon Sinek 20:21 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 20:22 I wrote about him in this book, Leadership: Strategies and Tactics, and I, I called him DC, so I'll call him DC. So DC, we find out that this legendary guy is gonna take over, and one day w- we're supposed to meet him. He's coming after lunch, and we've got our little platoon hut out there, and we're sitting in the platoon hut, and I'm kinda the guy on watch looking for this guy to show up.

Simon Sinek 20:41 [laughs]

Jocko Willink 20:41 And there's guys coming out of the locker rooms. "Oh, that's not him." Another guy comes out. "It's not him." And then f- finally this guy comes out, and I go, "Maybe this is him." He starts walking towards our platoon hut, and as he starts getting closer, I, I look at him, I go, "This can't be the guy," 'cause this guy's, looks like he's about 150 pounds. Can't be him. But he keeps coming towards us. And then I'm like, "Oh, wait, this guy's, like, short. Like, how old, how [laughs] old is this guy, five-eight? What is this guy doing? He can't be a legendary SEAL." Keeps coming towards us, and as he gets closer, I, he's got, like... He's old. You know?

Simon Sinek 21:13 [laughs]

Jocko Willink 21:13 He's an old guy. He had to have been at least, like, 37, right?

Simon Sinek 21:16 [laughs]

Jocko Willink 21:17 So I'm thinking there's no way that this old, skinny, short guy is this legendary SEAL. And sure enough-

Simon Sinek 21:23 Mm-hmm

Jocko Willink 21:23 ... he walks in our platoon space, and it was him.

Simon Sinek 21:27 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 21:28 And we very quickly figured out why this guy was a legendary SEAL, because he walked in, he said, "Hey, sorry to hear about what happened with your last commander. Uh, I'm not worried about it. I'm just looking forward to working with you guys." Right then.

Simon Sinek 21:41 Mm.

Jocko Willink 21:41 Not, "I'm the new commander." Not, "This is my platoon." Not, "There's a new sheriff in town." It was, "I'm looking forward to working with you guys."

Simon Sinek 21:49 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 21:51 And that set the tone. Guy was the most humble leader.

Simon Sinek 21:55 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 21:56 And, you know, not only... So, so I got to see this as a young guy.

Simon Sinek 21:59 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 22:00 I was probably 22 or something. It was my second platoon. What, what made it very clear to me was because I got to see this stark contrast between a guy that was arrogant and egotistical, and how much we disliked him, and that we literally had a mutiny 'cause we didn't wanna follow him, and when this other guy took over that was humble, that listened to us, that treated us with respect, we would follow that guy anywhere. And that's the guy that I've tried to emulate-

Simon Sinek 22:28 Mm

Jocko Willink 22:28 ... throughout my career.

Simon Sinek 22:31 Follow-up question.

Jocko Willink 22:32 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 22:33 [clears throat] How did you learn when to turn on command and control in the chaos? Because I think a lot of people are listening to this, they're hearing the lessons about humility, asking questions, but there are times when that guy, he had earned the trust so that when-

Jocko Willink 22:51 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 22:51 ... he could flip the switch in the chaos, and it was barking orders, and there wasn't, you know, "I'd like to hear your opinions."

Jocko Willink 22:59 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 23:00 You know, h- wh- when did you see that happen? Like, because it's, I think people th-... And y- y- we've been, we've sort of been dancing around it, which is people choose to be either this lovely, beautiful, kind, humble leader. They choose that path, or they choose the path of command and control. But the, the answer is y- you do need both. You can't be command and control all the time. But there are episodes where this guy, this legendary SEAL, did turn it on. When did he turn it on, and when did he turn it off?

Jocko Willink 23:26 People ask me that very question, right? How do you know when to do that? And here's the way that I did it. This is what I saw him do.

Simon Sinek 23:34 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 23:34 First of all, there's gonna be times

Jocko Willink 23:37 where what you're talking about is there's a leadership vacuum. There's a moment in time, whether it's in a meeting-

Simon Sinek 23:41 Right

Jocko Willink 23:41 ... whether it's on the battlefield, whether it's making a decision, where there's a leadership vacuum. No one is stepping up and taking charge.

Simon Sinek 23:49 It's obviously quiet.

Jocko Willink 23:50 And it's obviously quiet.

Simon Sinek 23:52 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 23:52 Now, when that happens, here's what I do. If there's a leadership vacuum, "Oh, no one's making a decision," I'm gonna pause. I actually want everyone in the room to know and feel that there's a leadership vacuum. I want everyone in the room to goBecause if I jump in too early-

Simon Sinek 24:10 Right

Jocko Willink 24:10 ... there's a couple people, maybe you were about to, you know, Simon had an idea. He was about to say something, and I just cut him off, and now he's gonna be begrudgingly executing what I told him to do, and he's gonna think he didn't get a chance to step up. So I'm gonna pause long enough, and in combat it might be three seconds. In a business meeting it might be 30 seconds. It might be a minute. If it's a long email exchange, it might be three days.

Simon Sinek 24:33 [laughs]

Jocko Willink 24:33 Right? I mean, I'm, I'm on the CC line, and people are going back and forth, and all of a sudden, you know, I'm gonna chime in.

Simon Sinek 24:41 Mm.

Jocko Willink 24:41 So when that leadership vacuum occurs, I'm gonna give it at least enough time that everybody feels it, and once they feel it, I'm gonna make a small iterative decision to move in a direction that I think is best at that moment in time. And then we're gonna move in that direction. I'm gonna keep an open mind.

Simon Sinek 25:02 Mm.

Jocko Willink 25:03 And we're gonna get feedback on the decision that I make, just made.

Simon Sinek 25:06 Mm.

Jocko Willink 25:06 I'm gonna make the smallest decision I can, by the way.

Simon Sinek 25:08 Mm.

Jocko Willink 25:08 And this is something that, again, this is something that I use to cheat in the SEAL teams, because I was known in the SEAL teams for being very decisive if a decision needed to get made. I would make a decision, but I would make a little tiny decision.

Simon Sinek 25:20 Mm.

Jocko Willink 25:20 But no one's really thinking about that at the time, but if we're, if you and I are getting shot at, or my, our platoon is getting shot at from, you know, somewhere up to the north, well, what's my decision gonna be? Is it gonna be attack? That's one decision. Is it gonna be retreat? That's another decision. Those are big decisions to make. But what if I just say, "Simon, go to the rooftop. Tell me what you see up to the north." Okay, I just made that decision, and everyone goes, "Oh, Jocko's got this."

Simon Sinek 25:46 Mm.

Jocko Willink 25:47 "We're good." Now you go up and-

Simon Sinek 25:48 Mm

Jocko Willink 25:48 ... you tell me what you see, and maybe you see a lot of enemy. Maybe you don't see very many enemy. Maybe we can move forward.

Simon Sinek 25:54 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 25:55 But I'm gonna make a, a ver- the smallest decision that I can.

Simon Sinek 25:58 Mm.

Jocko Willink 25:59 And, and by the way, if the next decision is gonna be made, if someone else makes the next decision, I'm fine with it.

Simon Sinek 26:04 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 26:05 I don't ever feel like I need to talk, and in fact, when I do have to step in and make a decision, I normally will decipher that later and try and figure out, "Okay, what did I do wrong where Simon didn't make a call?"

Simon Sinek 26:16 Mm. Mm. I like this idea of making the little decision. I mean, it does multiple things, right? [clears throat] It establishes that somebody's gonna take accountability. It also builds trust, right? Because you're not taking unnecessary risks too soon, even if it's the right choice. Um, it doesn't make people skittish. It's a very clever thing. I think there's an, and, and as, as we're talking about it, I'm thinking about it, there's also the, you know, I think as we practice good leadership, you're simultaneously learning good followership, because I assume that in chaos of combat, that when the leader starts actually barking orders, that the good followers, those in the care of the, of that leader, they also know when is the right time to say, "I'd like to contribute. I think I have an idea." And they know, "You know what? I'm, I'm gonna follow. I'm gonna follow."

Jocko Willink 27:01 Yep.

Simon Sinek 27:01 The, it go, it g- goes hand-in-hand, knowing when to ask, but also knowing when to not volunteer.

Jocko Willink 27:06 It does boil down to trust as well.

Simon Sinek 27:08 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 27:08 But this is something that's built up over time, because if we're, if you and I are in the street and we're in a gunfight-

Simon Sinek 27:13 Mm

Jocko Willink 27:14 ... and I look at you, and I'm a, the guy in charge, and I look at you and say, "Simon, get in that building right there. Get to the roof and put down cover fire," that's not the time where you're gonna say, "Well, actually, you know, I, I've, I, if you could explain to me the why behind that-"

Simon Sinek 27:29 [laughs]

Jocko Willink 27:29 "... I'd really like to know." Now, because you're gonna go, "Oh, we're in a gunfight. Jocko's got a plan, and I'm gonna go execute it."

Simon Sinek 27:37 Right.

Jocko Willink 27:37 And you're gonna go execute it most of the time, because there's a chance-

Simon Sinek 27:42 Mm

Jocko Willink 27:42 ... that when I say, peek at you from behind this wall I'm hiding behind with shots firing over my head, I say, "Simon, go get in that building there. Take the roof. Put down cover fire."

Simon Sinek 27:51 Right.

Jocko Willink 27:51 There's a chance that you look back at me-

Simon Sinek 27:54 Yeah

Jocko Willink 27:54 ... and you say, "Negative." Now why are you saying that to me?

Simon Sinek 27:59 You might have information.

Jocko Willink 28:00 You see something that I don't see.

Simon Sinek 28:01 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 28:02 Maybe there's a, you know, uh, IEDs in the, in the, in the-

Simon Sinek 28:06 Yeah

Jocko Willink 28:07 ... in the driveway. There's a reason w- why you can't do that.

Simon Sinek 28:10 And when they say negative, you don't say, "Damn it, you listen to me." They say, "Ah." When you hear negative-

Jocko Willink 28:14 Exactly

Simon Sinek 28:14 ... they know something I don't know.

Jocko Willink 28:16 Yep.

Simon Sinek 28:16 Quick exchange, and then either adapt or not.

Jocko Willink 28:19 And really, what it boils down to then is-

Simon Sinek 28:20 It's clever

Jocko Willink 28:20 ... now we're gonna go a little bit deeper, and I'm gonna tell you why.

Simon Sinek 28:23 Yep.

Jocko Willink 28:23 I'm gonna give you the why, and I'm gonna let you go execute it.

Simon Sinek 28:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jocko Willink 28:26 I'm gonna say, "Well, I need cover fire. Help me."

Simon Sinek 28:29 Right.

Jocko Willink 28:29 And you go, "Okay, got it. I'm going to that building-"

Simon Sinek 28:32 Right, right

Jocko Willink 28:32 ... "and I'm gonna be able to put down cover fire."

Simon Sinek 28:34 Right.

Jocko Willink 28:34 So that, that trust that you build up and knowing when to step in and make a call, again, you wanna do it as seldom as possible, 'cause the more you talk, the less people listen. You know, that's another thing. Like, we – I would not talk on my radio. In fact, when I was a platoon commander, when I was a troop commander, our radios were almost always silent, and when I did say something on the radio, when I came up on the radio and said, "Everyone get to building 34 now," like, people knew that they were gonna get there no matter what.

Simon Sinek 29:08 Mm.

Jocko Willink 29:09 And that's because I wasn't saying, "Hey, can you push two guys over to this building here? Hey, g- somebody give me some reports on where that hallway's getting cle-" No, no. No one did that.

Simon Sinek 29:16 Mm.

Jocko Willink 29:17 No one did that, and it was like radio silence all the time.

Simon Sinek 29:21 You

Simon Sinek 29:22 know, what a leader is doing is fostering relationships, fostering trust. All the words that we use in good leadership, you know, you find in families and personal relationships. It's very human.

Jocko Willink 29:29 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 29:30 And what, what we're talking about is, like, when we get along, uh, that doesn't mean we have to like each other. It's preferable, but not, not 100% necessary.

Jocko Willink 29:39 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 29:40 But, uh, and this is one of the things I find wonderful about military, which is the trust is so deep that, you know, I'll risk my life for somebody I don't necessarily even like, which I find fascinating. But when the team dynamics work and you get the relationships working, then it works.

Jocko Willink 29:53 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 29:54 And I think a lot of leaders, they're so focused on the goal, they're so focused on the quarterly result, they're focused on even the strategy, that they sometimes forget that there's a whole group of people-

Jocko Willink 30:05 Okay

Simon Sinek 30:05 ... that have to come along to execute it, be engaged, enjoy it. And unlike the military-You know, they go home at the end of the day, or they have got a side hustle, or, you know, they have options. They can quit, and they're not forced to do anything. In the military, there's still a, there's still a military s- structure and, and, you know, they can disengage, of course.

Jocko Willink 30:28 Mm-hmm. And they can literally just say, "We're not doing this."

Simon Sinek 30:31 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 30:32 SEALs in Vietnam that would get told, this is a classic story-

Simon Sinek 30:35 Yeah

Jocko Willink 30:35 ... that I would hear as a young SEAL.

Simon Sinek 30:37 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 30:37 You know, when I came in, there were still SEALs, Vietnam SEALs in, and if they got some- told to do something they didn't wanna do, this is a classic story, oh, they'd get told, "Hey, go do an ambush on this-"

Simon Sinek 30:47 Yeah, yeah

Jocko Willink 30:47 ... "on this river that's, you know, over here tonight." And the guys would say, "Hey, there's a lot of enemy activity. We don't think it's gonna be a good..." "Shut up and do it." They go, "Okay, cool." They'd get their gear on, they'd patrol 100 meters outside the gate, they'd sit down, hang out for five hours, walk back in the m- you know, when the sun came up and say, "Yeah, we didn't run into anything." So they, they complied-

Simon Sinek 31:09 Right

Jocko Willink 31:09 ... but they didn't actually execute. So even though in the military, sure, there's the, the thought that they're just gonna do what you tell them to do, but they're actually not.

Simon Sinek 31:17 Yeah, yeah.

Jocko Willink 31:17 They're not gonna do that.

Simon Sinek 31:18 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 31:18 Another great, you know, you brought up-

Simon Sinek 31:20 It's, it's, it's quiet quitting

Jocko Willink 31:21 ... you, you brought up Band of Brothers. That's another great scene that I bring up quite often is, you know, there's the, the scene in the end of Band of Brothers where he gets told, "Hey, go do a reconnaissance across the river."

Simon Sinek 31:31 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 31:32 And Dick Winter says, "Hey, I don't really think we should do that." "Hey, shut up and go do it." He says, "Okay." They go do it. They take a casualty. I think a guy even gets killed.

Simon Sinek 31:38 Yeah, yeah.

Jocko Willink 31:39 They come back, "Hey, we didn't see anything." And by the way, the war is all but over at this point.

Simon Sinek 31:43 Yeah, yeah. It's a stupid... Yeah.

Jocko Willink 31:44 And the colonel next night says, "Go do it again." And he says, "I don't think we should do this." Says, "Go do it again." And he says, "Um, okay, roger that." And they go into a basement, they drink wine, they play cards, and they don't do the mission. So that happens in the military. That, that absolutely happens in the military, and so that's why, again, it's, it's not so clear and people don't think that it works that way, but it works that way.

Simon Sinek 32:07 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 32:07 If the team is on board-

Simon Sinek 32:08 It's still human, it's still human beings

Jocko Willink 32:09 ... if the team is on board-

Simon Sinek 32:11 It's still human beings

Jocko Willink 32:11 ... with the, what we're doing-

Simon Sinek 32:12 Yeah

Jocko Willink 32:12 ... then we have a problem. And, you know, you're talking about relationships, and for years I was telling people, here, you know, you asked what, what have, what have I discovered in the past few years. For years, I was telling people, "Hey, you gotta have relationships. You gotta build relationships. You gotta have relationships. You gotta build relationships." And, and I, I was working with a company, and I was looking at this woman, I said, "Hey, you gotta build a relationship," and I could see the look on her face was a combination of like, "Yeah, I know, dummy," but what does that even mean? You know, that was the look on her face.

Simon Sinek 32:40 Right, right. Not actionable.

Jocko Willink 32:41 Yeah. She, it was like-

Simon Sinek 32:42 Like go make a friend.

Jocko Willink 32:43 Yes, go make a friend.

Simon Sinek 32:44 Yeah. Thank you. [laughs]

Jocko Willink 32:44 And so I ended up thinking to myself, you know, I keep telling t- people to have relationships, build relationships. What's a relationship?

Simon Sinek 32:53 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 32:53 And I ended up figuring out in my mind what the components of a relationship are: trust, listen, respect, influence, and care. Trust, listen, respect-

Simon Sinek 33:03 Oh, trust

Jocko Willink 33:03 ... influence, and care. If you want people to listen to you, you have to listen to them. And it goes right on down the line. If you want people to trust you, you've gotta give them trust. If you want people to respect you, you've gotta treat them with respect. If you want to have influence over people, you've gotta actually allow them to influence you. And if you want people to care about you, then you need to care about them. And that's the way it works. And the biggest obstacle to all those things is my ego.

Simon Sinek 33:27 Hmm.

Jocko Willink 33:28 Because why should I listen to Simon? I've been here for longer than him.

Simon Sinek 33:32 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 33:32 Or w- why should I respect him? I, I, I outrank him. He should show me respect.

Simon Sinek 33:37 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 33:38 Right? Well, why, why should he be in- why should I be influenced by him? I know this way better than he does. And those, my ego comes in, and now I end up with a bad relationship with people. So if we can get our ego under control, and we can be humble, then we can build good relationships with people.

Simon Sinek 33:52 That's so good.

Jocko Willink 33:53 And then just going back to your-

Simon Sinek 33:54 That's so good

Jocko Willink 33:54 ... original point there is, y- you know, when people talk about, oh, we gotta make this, we gotta make this number or whatever, what team wins?

Simon Sinek 34:03 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 34:03 The team with 10 people on it where they hate each other and don't get along, or the team that everyone's friends and they get along and they get after it? Who's gonna win?

Simon Sinek 34:10 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 34:10 It's, it's... No one gets that question wrong. The team that gets along, the team that has good relationships, wins all day long. And by the way, going back, what makes the SEAL teams good? It's not because we're, can do pull-ups. It's not 'cause we can shoot straight. Like, yeah, those things come in, but the reason we're good is 'cause we care about each other, 'cause we have good relationships.

Simon Sinek 34:29 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 34:29 And by the way, not all SEAL platoons are good.

Simon Sinek 34:31 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 34:31 There are SEAL platoons that are disasters. There are SEAL platoons that get disbanded occasionally, where they take an entire group of these, you know, high-performing, top-tier guys-

Simon Sinek 34:43 Yeah

Jocko Willink 34:43 ... and they disband them.

Simon Sinek 34:45 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 34:46 Why? It's not because the people on the team aren't in good physical condition. It's not because the people on the team don't know how to shoot their weapons. It's not because they don't understand tactics. The reason that they get disbanded is 'cause they have bad relationships.

Simon Sinek 34:59 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 35:00 It's a disaster, and you see that i- in any organization.

Simon Sinek 35:03 Yeah. So good. I love that construction. I think that is bang on. Do

Simon Sinek 35:08 you miss the brotherhood? Have you been able to find it back out in the, out in the civilian world?

Jocko Willink 35:12 Well, I mean, I have a company called Echelon Front, and we work with a bunch of our guys. [laughs] I mean, literally all-

Simon Sinek 35:18 It's the guys

Jocko Willink 35:19 ... the guys. It's the guys. Now, we have other people as well.

Simon Sinek 35:21 Sure, sure, sure.

Jocko Willink 35:21 You know, we brought in a bunch of other people, but those people understand, too, and we're all in the same, you know, mindset of trying to share these lessons with as many people as we can. But listen, I'm not gonna lie to you. Do I miss being, uh, in a SEAL platoon? 100%.

Simon Sinek 35:37 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 35:38 There's nothing better. It's the best job in the world.

Simon Sinek 35:39 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 35:40 There's nothing better. I will miss that forever. I w- I knew it at the time.

Simon Sinek 35:44 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 35:45 You know, I'm, I'm lucky enough that, you know, when I was in charge of a, of a, of a SEAL task unit when I was a platoon commander, I was older because I had been enlisted, so I knew that this was as good as it's gonna get, and I relished every single day-

Simon Sinek 35:58 Yeah

Jocko Willink 35:58 ... as much as I possibly could, and it broke my heart every day [laughs] that, that got ticked off the calendar that it was that much further away from, from being my life.

Simon Sinek 36:07 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 36:08 But it's the best job in the world, and it, uh, and I miss it every single day.

Simon Sinek 36:11 That's the one thing every vet I've ever metWhether they loved the military or hated the military, they all miss the brotherhood and the sisterhood, and they've never found it in the outside world. Not a one

Jocko Willink 36:20 I, I was in a call with... There's a, the, the, the Army unit that I worked for in Ramadi, it was my last deployment, uh, the, the Ready First Brigade, the First Armored Division, and we're, we're having a big reunion in Texas. And we were on a call the other day. So it was basically like the, the battalion commanders and the brigade commander, and all these, these guys are now retired generals and colonels, and, but it, it was... I, I noticed it three minutes into the call. These were the guys that we would have brigade meetings, right?

Simon Sinek 36:51 And how big is a brigade?

Jocko Willink 36:52 Brigades, there was 5,600-

Simon Sinek 36:54 Okay

Jocko Willink 36:54 ... people. But these, these brigade meetings that we had, which we, we had probably twice a week-

Simon Sinek 37:00 Mm-hmm

Jocko Willink 37:01 ... you know, where people are going through who was wounded, who was killed, what, what problems we were having. They were the most, had the heaviest gravity in these meetings. And for a moment, you know, I thought about all those meetings where we'd be talking about y- you know, what, when the memorial service was for a soldier or a marine that was killed. It was heartbreaking. And, and then the determination to make a difference in that city, and then you fast-forward, it's coming up on 20 years. It'll be the 20-year reunion, and here was this group of, of, of men that I was in this Zoom call with.

Simon Sinek 37:35 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 37:37 And instantly, I just felt, you know, this, this camaraderie-

Simon Sinek 37:42 Mm

Jocko Willink 37:42 ... that was, was just awesome. It was awesome to be s- sitting on a Zoom call with these guys who, who I'd sat in a room with and been on the battlefield with, you know? Colonel McFarlane, just each one of these guys, I'd been out there on the battlefield with them while we're doing things.

Simon Sinek 37:56 Mm-hmm.

Jocko Willink 37:57 And yes, I... Do I miss that? I miss it every single day. It was a terrible time.

Simon Sinek 38:03 Mm.

Jocko Willink 38:04 There was heartbreaking, you know, sacrifices that were made.

Simon Sinek 38:08 Mm.

Jocko Willink 38:09 And yet, I miss it.

Simon Sinek 38:11 Mm.

Simon Sinek 38:13 Is there a mission that you did in the teams or something that you've done outside the teams that you wish all the things you do in, from this point on will be more like that? And it doesn't have to have been successful commercially or militarily, but when you look back at it, you're like, "That, that one is the one that stands out. I w- I want that feeling."

Jocko Willink 38:32 There was a moment in time. So I was in Task Unit Commander. This is 2006. We did a six-month deployment. We're probably five months into deployment, and, you know, we had taken casualties. We lost guys. It was a very difficult deployment. And towards the end of that deployment, I forget even what the mission was, but we were patrolling through the street, and we were leaving somewhere. I was out there as a ground force commander, so I'm, I'm the senior guy in charge, but it's not- nothing big is happening. And I remember, you know, running back, and I'm holding a corner, and as I'm holding a corner, I'm, I'm kinda watching the, the, the guys. And they were so good and so squared away.

Simon Sinek 39:13 Mm.

Jocko Willink 39:13 And it just looked like... It just looked beautiful. And just to see this, this group of guys-

Simon Sinek 39:23 Mm

Jocko Willink 39:23 ... that were so honed and so good and so focused, and I remember watching, just thinking to myself, "This is it. This is the high point of my life right here, being a part of this crew."

Simon Sinek 39:34 But you, you've had good teams. You've had good missions. You've sat back and watched the thing work, as you're describing. What was it about this patrol that stands out from all the other patrols where it worked as well?

Jocko Willink 39:47 It was a combination of the fact that because in that particular moment everything was going fine, so I didn't really... I wasn't looking for that leadership vacuum. I was ver- I was detached. I was able to just be, uh, be, be almost an observer.

Simon Sinek 40:02 So it was a perfect alignment of events that you could take that-

Jocko Willink 40:04 Yeah

Simon Sinek 40:04 ... that, that beat, that beat

Jocko Willink 40:05 Just was watching and just getting to see. And w- you know, whatever the, the actual tactical terrain was-

Simon Sinek 40:11 Sure

Jocko Willink 40:11 ... set me up in a spot where I could see, and I could watch, and I could say, "Dang." I, you know, for... I wasn't worried about anything, and I just was watching, going, "Yeah, this is as good as it gets."

Simon Sinek 40:20 That's great. Give me an early specific happy childhood memory, specific, that I can relive with you.

Jocko Willink 40:26 I got one for you.

Simon Sinek 40:27 Okay.

Jocko Willink 40:28 And, and, um, I was playing soccer.

Simon Sinek 40:31 This is specific?

Jocko Willink 40:31 Yep, this is specific.

Simon Sinek 40:32 Okay.

Jocko Willink 40:32 I was playing soccer, and my dad was coaching the game. Somebody kicked a ball, and it hit me in the face, and the, uh, my nose started bleeding, and so there's blood going everywhere, and my dad just left me in the game, like no factor. "Keep playing." And I just remember thinking, "All right. Uh, that's how we roll." [laughs]

Simon Sinek 40:53 And, and what was it about that, that of all the memories you had in your normal childhood-

Jocko Willink 40:58 Yeah

Simon Sinek 40:58 ... what was it about that memory that makes you smile and want me, want to tell me now?

Jocko Willink 41:02 I, I think it was a little foreshadowing-

Simon Sinek 41:05 Yeah

Jocko Willink 41:05 ... of just, you know, "Hey, I'm gonna keep going."

Simon Sinek 41:08 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 41:08 "And that's what we're gonna do."

Simon Sinek 41:10 Yeah.

Jocko Willink 41:10 "We're gonna keep going regardless of what happens."

Simon Sinek 41:12 So you do realize those two stories you told me are exactly the same story, right? Except in the, in the combat story, you were your dad. Which is, you just trusted that if they were in aching or if they weren't, whatever was going on-

Jocko Willink 41:27 Yeah, they're gonna keep going

Simon Sinek 41:28 ... that they, that they had the wherewithal to just keep going for the team.

Jocko Willink 41:32 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 41:33 Your dad sat on the sideline and just said, "All right. Whatever. Look at this beautiful team work."

Jocko Willink 41:38 Mm. Keep going.

Simon Sinek 41:39 "Keep going." And for that brief second in that mission, that you were your dad.

Jocko Willink 41:45 Interesting. Yeah. All right.

Simon Sinek 41:47 That you, that you had built your team. In this case, your dad had built up you and the rest of the team, 'cause it was also the team, not just you, that he, he didn't need to pull you out. He, he could just sit back and trust that the work that he had done was working.

Jocko Willink 42:04 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 42:04 It's the exact same story.

Jocko Willink 42:05 Interesting.

Simon Sinek 42:06 I think what it captures is the joy of leadership, the joy of parenting, the joy of all of these things that we... A good leader works tirelesslyOn the individuals and the relationships and making it all work, but at some point you know it works not because the numbers show that it works, because the numbers can lie, but you get that weird sit back moment and just smile to yourself. You know? Those moments of all the sacrifices, all the stress was worth it. Uh, and that's why we do it, for those unexpected glimmers. You don't know when they're gonna-- You'd have no idea that in the middle of a fricking war zone that that would be the moment that you'd find out. You, your dad had no idea that it was when his kid got hit in the face with a ball that that was the moment he'd be like, "It's all working." [laughs] You know, people work so hard for the dopamine hit to know that they found something or achieved something, and good leaders work for the, the serotonin and the oxytocin hit. That's what that is. That's pride, and much harder to get than a dopamine hit. Mm-hmm. A lot more work than a dopamine hit. Dopamine hits are fricking easy. Yeah. You know, write a goal- You got one in your pocket ... figure, figure out a plan. [laughs] You know, there you go, dopamine. And we've built all these incentive structures around dopamine hits, which is the problem. But the reality is we need more incentive structures around serotonin hits- Mm ... which are really hard- Yeah ... and requires so much damn work, but when you get it, ain't no better feeling. Yeah. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. And that's what I love about these things. Jocko, it's such a pleasure to meet you finally. Yeah, great to meet you as well. Too, too long in the making. Indeed. Too long in the making. [upbeat music] If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsay Garbinus, David Ja, and Devon Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Rueterschon.