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Simon SinekSimon Sinek

Kids (And Employees) Know More Than You Think with Dr. Becky Kennedy | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Parenting is the hardest job in the world—and it turns out, it’s also one of the best training grounds for leadership. Dr. Becky Kennedy, aka the “Millennial Parent Whisperer,” became an essential voice for caretakers by offering practical, actionable parenting advice that resonated with millions during the pandemic. As a clinical psychologist and founder of Good Inside, she’s now helping parents build sturdy leadership skills that not only transform their homes but also their work lives. In this conversation, Dr. Becky shares how understanding boundaries, emotional triggers, and big feelings can help us become more effective leaders. Whether you’re a parent or a manager (or both!), her insights will help you lead with more intention, connection, and confidence. This… is A Bit of Optimism. Check out Dr. Becky’s work: https://www.goodinside.com/ ⏰ Timestamps 0:00 How to talk to kids during a crisis 3:54 Parenting skills are leadership skills 6:16 How parenting styles have changed over generations 7:28 The shift from "fault" to "feelings" based parenting 8:43 Two core principles about children's behavior 11:05 Why children trigger their parents 15:00 Simon's theory on why people don't practice leadership skills 17:19 How Dr. Becky went viral on social media 22:58 Becky's definition of boundaries and how to set them 29:25 Why parents become our triggers 33:40 Simon's terrible temper as a kid 35:51 Anger is our best feeling 38:34 Dr. Becky's favorite client 41:32 "Bad" kids need protection too + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game. + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Live Online Classes: https://simonsinek.com/classes/ Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek Simon’s books: The Infinite Game: https://simonsinek.com/books/the-infinite-game/ Start With Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/start-with-why/ Find Your Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/find-your-why/ Leaders Eat Last: https://simonsinek.com/books/leaders-eat-last/ Together is Better: https://simonsinek.com/books/together-is-better/ + + + #SimonSinek

Dr. Becky KennedyguestSimon Sinekhost
Jan 28, 202543mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:54

    How to talk to kids during a crisis

    1. BK

      Someone feels your intention more than they feel your intervention. Intention is, am I intention right now to teach and make better?

    2. SS

      Right.

    3. BK

      Or is my intention to vomit my own frustration onto my child as a form of catharsis, which is usually what we do.

    4. SS

      This feels so good, though.

    5. BK

      Feels so good.

    6. SS

      Yeah.

    7. BK

      No, it feels-

    8. SS

      We do it in, we do it at work all the time

    9. BK

      ... so good that it has to be named.

    10. SS

      We do it at work all the time. So good.

    11. BK

      So good.

    12. SS

      So good.

    13. BK

      Um, but it's not good.

    14. SS

      It's therapy unto itself. If you have kids, then you probably already know Dr. Becky. In fact, you may have used her app when your kid was having a meltdown. She's the author of Good Inside, the name of her app also, but more important, she is an absolute genius at understanding human beings, both the little ones and the big ones. Yes, she talks about parenting, and yes, we talked about how to be a better parent, but my goodness, the amount that I got out of this conversation about how I can be a better leader, absolutely invaluable. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] I live in Los Angeles. We're recording in Los Angeles. Uh, we've had these fires. Families have been traumatized. When something happens to a family and it's hard enough for the parents to deal with what they're going through, what are we supposed to say to children?

    15. BK

      First of all, when unimaginable, horrible things happen, there's no perfect approach and there's no perfect words, and so I just always want to tell parents that. Like, what's the right thing to say? There's no right words for a situation that's wrong, ever. So let's just get that out the window. The principle that always drives me, 'cause I tend to be driven by first principles in anything I think about, is that information doesn't scare kids as much as a lack of information scares kids. Because kids are expert perceivers of the world even more than we are, because their evolution, their survival depends on it. Kids are so dependent on adults for survival.

    16. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. BK

      Right? We all need food, shelter, water, but me and you, Simon, we can get food, shelter, and water. Kids get food, shelter, water, love from their parent, and so they have to be especially attuned to, "What's going on? Did my environment change? Where is my parent? Might I need my parent now for survival?" And so when they're in a situation where they have black smoke around them-

    18. SS

      Mm-hmm

    19. BK

      ... packed bags ready to go, a parent crying, on the phone, fire, evacuation, person's house burned down, and then the parent gets off the phone and says, "Sweetie, no, nothing's wrong-"

    20. SS

      Yeah

    21. BK

      ..."Let's watch that show together," a kid panics. They act out.

    22. SS

      Yeah.

    23. BK

      They cling, and my, you know, then my, a parent thinks, "Why are they clinging?" Right?

    24. SS

      Yeah.

    25. BK

      So noticing things that are off-

    26. SS

      Yeah

    27. BK

      ... and not having a narrative to understand them is terrifying-

    28. SS

      Yeah

    29. BK

      ... for a kid. And so just to start this, what would a parent start by saying is you'd probably start by saying to a kid, "Hey, you're noticing blank," and then this is really one of my favorite lines to build true confidence. [laughs] Just, "You're right to notice that.

    30. SS

      Hmm.

  2. 3:54 – 6:16

    Parenting skills are leadership skills

    1. SS

      I can't help but run it through the leadership filter is it's the exact same thing we do with any human being, which is they're not idiots. They're s- aware of things changing. They're aware of tensions amongst the executives, and we put on smiley faces because we think that if we're happy, then they'll be happy. We hide stress. We hide tension. We hide all these things as opposed to just telling people, and even saying, "I don't know what's gonna happen."

    2. BK

      Yes.

    3. SS

      People can deal with good news and people can deal with bad news. It's uncertainty that the insanity and the going down the rabbit holes and the, and the looping starts, and it also disallows for questions, right? 'Cause if you give me information, even if it's bad news, I can ask a question. If you give me nothing and you lie to me and you hide it from me, it leaves me even in a worse state. And so what I find so fascinating is everything you're saying is, uh, is true for adults too. It's probably just more exaggerated for, for kids.

    4. BK

      I mean, I don't think Good Inside is a parenting approach. It's a leadership approach.

    5. SS

      It's a leadership approach, for sure.

    6. BK

      We even say, what I've said to parents, what parents say, especially ones who are really in our system for a while, is we help parents become sturdy leaders.

    7. SS

      Yeah.

    8. BK

      That's the phrase, sturdy leadership. It's why, I think, uh, I'm actually asked often, "Your Good Inside book was recommended in my management consulting Slack groups. Are you a management consultant?"

    9. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. BK

      And I used to say no, and now I say, " [laughs] I am."

    11. SS

      Yeah.

    12. BK

      It just, the system I tend to operate in is a family system.

    13. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. BK

      But being the leader of a family system is also about setting up the conditions for success, and that has to do with setting boundaries, having a kind of sense of your own authority as a leader-

    15. SS

      Mm-hmm

    16. BK

      ... and staying connected, seeing the good inside people, and thinking about how to bring it out. And whether you have children or employees or athletes on your team, it, it's all the same stuff.

    17. SS

      Yeah. You know, when somebody asks you, "Are you a management consultant?" If by management consultant you mean do I give advice to people to take better care of those in their span of care, then the answer is yes, 100%.

    18. BK

      Yeah.

    19. SS

      Uh, 'cause that's what good leadership is. It's being responsible for, for those around you. It's ensuring that those around you will rise, build confidence, all of these things. It's all exactly the same thing.

    20. BK

      That's right, and when it goes back to the information, you know, two things happen when people notice things in their environment and they're not given a story-

    21. SS

      Yeah

    22. BK

      ... to understand. They either make up a story themselves, and almost always that story is that it's their fault.

    23. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. BK

      And that goes back to our childhood.

    25. SS

      Good segue here.

    26. BK

      Okay.

    27. SS

      Okay? Which is styles of parenting have changed over time, like styles of leadership have changed with the times.

    28. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    29. SS

      And,

  3. 6:16 – 7:28

    How parenting styles have changed over generations

    1. SS

      you know, when you and I were kids and we got in troubleOur parents said, "What did you do this time?" And these days, it seems when kids get in trouble, it's the, the parents say, "What's wrong with your teacher?" I, I get a kick out of the criticisms older generations had of, of younger generations, like, "Damn, this generation." We're like, "Well, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. How were they raised?" Is always the question-

    2. BK

      Mm

    3. SS

      ... I wanna ask.

    4. BK

      Yeah.

    5. SS

      Which is, is it, is it, is it the people we have a problem with, or is it the parents we have a problem with? [laughs]

    6. BK

      I don't know if I'm the best cultural anthropologist of parenting, so I'm gonna answer-

    7. SS

      [laughs]

    8. BK

      ... a version of the question. Because what I think you're getting at is I think a lot of my friends, the way we were raised, was kind of you did something wrong, it was like, "Go to your room. What's wrong with you?" Right? And so, in a way, what you're saying is the blame is in the child, and now what you're saying is the blame is in someone else, right? I, I- it actually, I always go back to something my son said so astutely, where my husband was mad at him because he, like, left the door open when we were backing out our car, and it kind of, you know, scraped on the garage. And my son ended up yelling back to my husband like, "It's not my fault." And my husband goes, "So it's my fault?" And then my son said something that I think is so profound and actually to me epitomizes what

  4. 7:28 – 8:43

    The shift from "fault" to "feelings" based parenting

    1. BK

      our approach is in parenting. He goes, "Dad, sometimes bad things happen, and it's nobody's fault."

    2. SS

      [laughs]

    3. BK

      A- and I, I honestly think the obsession with fault-

    4. SS

      Mm

    5. BK

      ... i- is, like, a really interesting thing. Okay, is it my kid's fault? Is it the teacher's fault? Why- is that a useful framework?

    6. SS

      Mm.

    7. BK

      I- it's, I actually would say it's not a useful framework. So I think we've gone from, "Go to your room," to what you're noticing now, and I don't think it's every parent, but it's kind of shifted from, "I don't care about my kid's feelings. Nobody cares about feelings. They had a bad behavior. Fix your behavior." If I look back on that, I don't know how people thought people were fixing their behaviors, but there was a lot of focus on just, "That's not okay. Go to your room and learn how to do it better." And now there's this-

    8. SS

      Think about it

    9. BK

      ... think about it.

    10. SS

      [laughs]

    11. BK

      Right. I always think about being a kid, being like, "You can't swim. Go to your room. Think about how to swim-

    12. SS

      Yeah

    13. BK

      ... and come back when you know how to swim."

    14. SS

      Yeah.

    15. BK

      Not very effective, but we've done that for generations. But now there's a little bit of my kids' feelings not only matter-

    16. SS

      Mm

    17. BK

      ... but, like, dictate what I should do as a parent.

    18. SS

      Mm, mm.

    19. BK

      That's equally dangerous.

    20. SS

      Mm.

    21. BK

      And that is definitely not a Good Inside approved approach. The way I see it, it is neither, okay? Where, like, at Good Inside, like, this

  5. 8:43 – 11:05

    Two core principles about children's behavior

    1. BK

      approach we have to leadership and to parenting really comes from two kind of first principles. Number one, kids are born good inside. Like, I really believe there's not a baby who's born saying like, "Oh, I'm gonna wake up my parents tonight. I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna F them over. Like, I hate my parents." No, they're born good inside, and the other inconvenient truth is that they're born with all the feelings and none of the skills. And to me, that visual gap explains basically 100% of children's bad behavior. And if you think about it from that perspective or you think about your own kid or any kid you know who acts out, oh, my goodness, they're born with all the feelings I have, with all the intensity, and they're born with no skills to manage those feelings.

    2. SS

      Mm.

    3. BK

      And at any point in life, feelings without skills manifest as bad behavior. The reason people yell at a waiter or yell at a partner is because, I don't know, they're angry, they're disappointed, high feelings, and they don't have the skills to regulate, low skills. And then for generations, what we did with that gap is we sent kids away, almost like the feelings were the problem. The feelings have never been the problem. The lack of skills is the problem. It's nobody's fault that kids don't have skills. It's not the parents' fault. It's not the s- kid's fault. It's just true.

    4. SS

      That's how they come as a package.

    5. BK

      That's how they come. So-

    6. SS

      You have to program them. Mm

    7. BK

      ... why don't we teach them the skills? Because if you think about feelings without skills, you can't bring down the feelings. You can't get rid of the feelings. But if you level up the skills, that changes behavior today and puts kids with the ultimate privilege in adulthood, which is having skills to manage the entire range of feelings you will always feel for the rest of your life.

    8. SS

      You're not just teaching people how to parent, you're teaching people how to be people. You're teaching, you're teaching human skills. And I, I, I always make the joke, like, you know, cats don't have to work very hard to be cats. They're j- they're naturally good at it, but it takes an unbelievable amount of work to be a good human being. So th- there's two skill gaps, right? Which is my kids have feelings and no skills, and I'm supposed to teach them the skills that I don't have.

    9. BK

      That's right.

    10. SS

      And so I have a broken partnership with the person who's, who, you know, uh, if we're raising the kids together, I have an inability to communicate or listen, and now I'm supposed to teach skills that I don't have to a child who doesn't have them. It's a double whammy.

    11. BK

      That is my sweet spot.

    12. SS

      Yeah.

    13. BK

      I think what happens when you become a parent, and no one wants to say this because it's, like,

  6. 11:05 – 15:00

    Why children trigger their parents

    1. BK

      daunting, is everything unhealed about your childhood just gets triggered over and over with your children. Like, we think our children are gonna heal us, and they trigger us-

    2. SS

      Mm-hmm

    3. BK

      ... over and over, and we have this choice. I can either allow that generational kind of wound or h- h- trauma, whatever you wanna call it, to then just be passed on generation to generation, or I can use this opportunity not only to give something different to my kids but actually to, like, heal myself-

    4. SS

      Mm

    5. BK

      ... and be the sturdiest, most confident version of me. And when you do that at the same time, it's, it's, like, addicting. It's amazing.

    6. SS

      Mm. Mm.

    7. BK

      And it's hard work.

    8. SS

      Let's take the, the, the question of the, the, the kid with the door.

    9. BK

      Yeah.

    10. SS

      And let's just change it slightly.

    11. BK

      Sure.

    12. SS

      Right? You let the door, you left the door open and the dog got out.

    13. BK

      Okay.

    14. SS

      Right? So you were told to close the door. We always close the door. Everybody knows to close the door. You were the last person out. You didn't close the door, and the kid says, "Well, sometimes bad things just happen, and it's nobody's fault."

    15. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    16. SS

      What is the right thing to say when they should have actually closed the door and they f- shirked a responsibility?

    17. BK

      Right. I just think fault, it's actually powerful to be, I don't know if it's a useful framework for anything. Fault is inherently shameful. Shame makes people freeze. Freeze is anti-learning, seems ineffective.

    18. SS

      Okay.

    19. BK

      So first of all, someone feels your intention more than they feel your intervention.

    20. SS

      So I know you didn't mean to leave the door open.

    21. BK

      So intention is, am I intention right now to teach... and make better?

    22. SS

      Right.

    23. BK

      Or is my intention to-

    24. SS

      Oh, the intention of the parent, okay

    25. BK

      ... vomit my own frustration onto my child as a form of catharsis, which is usually what we do.

    26. SS

      This feels so good, though.

    27. BK

      Feels so good.

    28. SS

      Yeah.

    29. BK

      No, it feels-

    30. SS

      We do it in, we just do it at work all the time

  7. 15:00 – 17:19

    Simon's theory on why people don't practice leadership skills

    1. SS

      do the work that I talk about-

    2. BK

      Yeah

    3. SS

      ... or write about bec- I, I-- So here's a great example.

    4. BK

      'Cause it takes time?

    5. SS

      Uh, uh, uh, it takes energy, takes effort.

    6. BK

      Sure.

    7. SS

      Uh, it, I remember I was giving a talk to a bunch of senior executives at some company, whatever it was, and they were going through really hard times, and I was talking about leadership and how you're taking care of people and making them feel safe and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And one of the executives, literally this happened, he raises his hand and goes, "Uh, I can't do anything that you're talking about. You have to understand, Simon, the pressure that we're under. I don't have time for the stuff you're talking about." And my response was, "I hear you don't have time. I got it. I understand the s- the stresses and the pressures are great. My question is, what were you doing in the good times? Like, how come you weren't making, building those, those environments in the good-"

    8. BK

      Mm.

    9. SS

      Just my question is, what were you doing-

    10. BK

      Yeah

    11. SS

      ... in the good times? But it goes back to the point was people feel pressure, and they don't feel like they have the ti- and it's the same reason people micromanage is because for you to, for me to let you try it and screw it up, and then I have to give you feedback, and still not great, and then I have to let you do it again, and maybe by the seventh time it'll be good.

    12. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SS

      Ugh, just do it myself. It's because you have to have patience and time.

    14. BK

      Yeah, I guess the way, what I would say, parents say this to me all the time, too. "I don't have time to learn these things." I say, "Look, I have no idea about your schedule and your time, and I'm not gonna lecture you about how you spend the time, the things you value. Not my style. But here's what I know. We either spend time preparing or reacting, and if we're used to spending time reacting, we don't quantify it as time because it's just our default." And all I know from parents is it actually takes a ton of time to yell at your kid, to watch something go wrong all, all the time, and it takes a lot of time to fall asleep at night when you're feeling really guilty-

    15. SS

      And vent to your spouse instead of watching TV

    16. BK

      ... after a shitty day.

    17. SS

      No, no, no.

    18. BK

      You're just used to it, so you don't mentally account for it.

    19. SS

      That's good.

    20. BK

      So that's, that, that, that's-

    21. SS

      So, so, so I'll amend. They don't wanna spend the time before.

    22. BK

      It's just new.

    23. SS

      But they're happy to spend the time after.

    24. BK

      It's just-

    25. SS

      [laughs]

    26. BK

      Anything that's new, anything that's new feels uncomfortable, and we always misinterpret discomfort as a sign of something wrong-

    27. SS

      Yeah

    28. BK

      ... when it's a sign of something new. So I would say to the person, "You're right. It will be a new way to spend time, and it will mentally feel longer because anything in that new circuit does because it's unfamiliar."

    29. SS

      I wanna change the subject. So you and I have something a little bit in common,

  8. 17:19 – 22:58

    How Dr. Becky went viral on social media

    1. SS

      uh, which is both of us have careers that kind of happened by accident. You know, we were both kinda doing our thing, and then something, uh, happened, and now we're doing something different.

    2. BK

      Yes.

    3. SS

      You know? And, um, neither of us saw it, expected it, planned for it, had any idea it was gonna happen. Uh, it wasn't in any plan. Uh, and just for those who don't know, uh, you had z- zero minimal, uh, social media presence. Uh, w- I think when you started, what'd you probably have, like everybody else, like 50 followers, your friends?

    4. BK

      At best.

    5. SS

      Yeah. And then something happened. You put out a statement. It went viral, and all of a sudden you're the, you're it.

    6. BK

      There's so many things before that that feel like really pivotal parts-

    7. SS

      Well, it takes-

    8. BK

      ... that led to that

    9. SS

      ... it takes a long time to become an overnight success.

    10. BK

      I just, I, I had been having all these ideas, uh, because in my private practice, just to give a little backstory, what I was doing just a couple days a week in private practice, I was seeing adults for therapy, like you, me, therapy. I was doing couples therapy, individual therapy, and I was seeing teens. And then in other sessions, I was seeing parents of younger children for parenting work. And what started to strike me, and it just started to get louder and louder in me and felt so wrong, was, oh my goodnessI know the way I'm working with adults and teens and couples is, like, right, and I know it's right because it's this mix of different things, and I'm just watching them change their lives, right? But then I have this next session with parents, and what I hear myself saying to them, based on the training that I thought was right, is from a first principle perspective, the complete opposite of... I would never have an adult, like if you came to me and said, "I did this bad thing," I would never take your phone. I would never shame you. I would never punish you. You'd never come back to me as a therapist. I'd say, "Okay, that's not great. Let's figure it out," right? I'd give you some experiments. I'd give you practice. But I was talking about timeouts, punishments, sticker charts. That's what I was trained to do.

    11. SS

      Yeah.

    12. BK

      And I heard myself saying it, and the, the juxtaposition from one session to another, it, it, it just, it just exploded out, and I ended up saying to a couple, I was like, "I don't believe what I'm telling you. I'm sorry. This is so awkward, but I, [laughs] I need, I need a couple days to figure out this whole parenting thing."

    13. SS

      Did you have kids at the time?

    14. BK

      I had kids at the time. I think that was part of it because once it wasn't just learning in a vacuum-

    15. SS

      Mm

    16. BK

      ... about, like, timeouts and yes, and so linear, it's so logical.

    17. SS

      Which is everything you got from a book.

    18. BK

      Yeah, and from actually a very esteemed extra training institution-

    19. SS

      Yeah

    20. BK

      ... in parenting.

    21. SS

      Yeah.

    22. BK

      The one that was considered gold standard. I couldn't believe I got into this program and, um, but then I had kids, and I, I feel like you're gonna get this, but there's all this, like, evidence base in psychology. I believe in evidence. I believe in science, okay? And, and I think what struck me in my practice was this, this evidence in my body that this was wrong.

    23. SS

      Yeah.

    24. BK

      It, it felt wrong, and once I said this thing to this couple, which I was like, "I, I don't, I, I'm telling you to do timeouts. I'm sorry. I don't believe in this. Like, I don't know what to tell you," it led to these months of writing. It, it opened something up. I was up at 4:00 AM. I couldn't stay in bed.

    25. SS

      Mm.

    26. BK

      I had s- it was like something, a dam, and I was talking to my husband, I was talking to my husband, and I remember one night he's like, "You should, you should really put these thoughts somewhere." I think part of him is like, "I'm trying to watch the football game," you know? [laughs] Um, and then I put up-

    27. SS

      Boundaries. Boundaries

    28. BK

      ... boundaries.

    29. SS

      Yeah.

    30. BK

      I put up my first post February 28th, 2020, and two weeks later, and this was the viral moment, New York City shut down for COVID. I had 200 followers exactly that day, I remember. I think it was March 13th, and at the time, what would happen is I'd write these posts just based on ideas.

  9. 22:58 – 29:25

    Becky's definition of boundaries and how to set them

    1. SS

      um, what skill is most lacking?

    2. BK

      Mm. Boundaries.

    3. SS

      Say more. I wanna go down deep in this because I think it's an unbelievably misunderstood concept.

    4. BK

      100%.

    5. SS

      And just from a work standpoint, I've had many conversations with people who talk about that they have boundaries and they want their boss, their company to respect their boundaries, and then the great irony is they respect no- nobody else's. Anyway, I-

    6. BK

      Yes

    7. SS

      ... I could give you specific examples, but I'll, I'll start with that, and you go-

    8. BK

      So I wanna give you my definition of boundaries

    9. SS

      ... misunderstanding of what they are and how they work.

    10. BK

      That's exactly right. Having clear definitions of what things are is, like, the foundation for doing something well.

    11. SS

      Yeah.

    12. BK

      Clarity. So I'm gonna share my definition of boundaries 'cause I hear this all the time too. "I'm setting boundaries with my kids, and they don't respect it. My mother-in-law doesn't respect it." And, and then I say, "Give me an example." And almost always I'll say, like, "With love and respect, that's not a boundary."

    13. SS

      So give me an example of one that's not a boundary.

    14. BK

      "I tell my kid over and over not to jump on the couch. They know not to jump on the couch. They're old enough. They know better."

    15. SS

      [laughs]

    16. BK

      "They do that. I tell my mother-in-law not to stop over unexpectedly. Like, she has to tell me, and she keeps doing it. They keep violating my boundaries." Neither of those are boundaries. Here's my definition, and it's super simple and usable. A boundary is something you tell someone you will do, and it requires the other person to do nothing.

    17. SS

      S- okay, give me an example.

    18. BK

      Okay. A boundary with the mother-in-law who stops by would sound like this: "Hey, look, I, I don't want it to get to this. I think I've asked you a lot of times. Please call before coming over. There's a reason for that. It's the order of our day. I don't do great when I'm startled, and so I just wanna tell you this is new, and I hope it doesn't get to this, butThe next time you come over unannounced, I will come to the car and say, "No, I can't have you here for a visit." I know it's gonna be hard for both of us. That is what I'm going to do. A boundary is something I tell someone I'm gonna do, and it requires someone else to do nothing. So if someone doesn't respect my boundary, it's not even part of the equation because when we say that, we're saying, "I'm giving away all of my power-

    19. SS

      Mm

    20. BK

      ... to someone else."

    21. SS

      Mm. What if a boundary's unreasonable?

    22. BK

      What does that mean?

    23. SS

      Um, what if, uh, it is the other way around?

    24. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    25. SS

      Where it's the parent-in-law-

    26. BK

      Mm-hmm

    27. SS

      ... who says, "These are my grandkids," you know?

    28. BK

      "I'm gonna come over to your house, and I'm gonna-"

    29. SS

      "I'm gonna come over, and if you don't let me in, then I'm gonna sit in the driveway." You know, like, it, like they'll do, they follow the same-

    30. BK

      Yeah

  10. 29:25 – 33:40

    Why parents become our triggers

    1. SS

      nobody else triggers us? Like, I am... I, I, I can, I have a temper with my parents. I don't have a temper with anybody.

    2. BK

      Yep. Well, I think what you're really, uh, also saying is just, like, what, what are our triggers, right? So-

    3. SS

      But why do parents more [laughs] than anyone else-

    4. BK

      They do

    5. SS

      ... in our lives bring it out in us?

    6. BK

      They're the people you have the closest attachments with. So w- triggers are memories of our past that are interrupting in the present. That's what they are. They're things that were never healed.

    7. SS

      Triggers are memories from our past that are interrupting in our present. Okay.

    8. BK

      Triggers are unhealed memories. And they're not just one memory, they're patterns from our past that come alive in our present. So what might that mean? If someone goes, "Whenever my parent says something even in the realm of criticizing," which is like, "Oh, you brought this salad for Thanksgiving," and I heard this recently from a friend, it's like, "You're always criticizing me, and why I can never be good enough for you?" And later the person's like, "Well, I don't know, maybe my mom just was surprised I brought arugula," [laughs] you know, whatever it was. Okay, so that would be a trigger.

    9. SS

      [laughs]

    10. BK

      So what's going on inside, right? This is a memory. And the reason I think the word memory around triggers really matters-

    11. SS

      Mm

    12. BK

      ... is people say all the time, "I don't remember how my parent-"... responded to my tantrums. I don't really remember how my parents responded when I made a mistake.

    13. SS

      Mm.

    14. BK

      We have such a limited definition of memory-

    15. SS

      Mm

    16. BK

      ... as if memory is only the thing we can verbally produce for someone else. Memories that we can verbally produce were integrated for us. People taught, people gave us a story. That's why we ingested a story and can verbalize a story. Most of our memories do not exist. The vast majority of them were things that happened that lived in our bodies, meaning my body registered-

    17. SS

      Mm-hmm

    18. BK

      ... my parents looking really disappointed with me if I got anything but a 95 or above.

    19. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. BK

      Or my body had so many times where I made a small mistake and I was met with immediate criticism instead of curiosity.

    21. SS

      Mm.

    22. BK

      "Why did you, you always forget your, you know, I don't, you always lose your jacket, Simon."

    23. SS

      Mm.

    24. BK

      Versus, "Hey, you're forgetting your jacket. Like, you're a smart kid. I know you wanna be responsible."

    25. SS

      Mm.

    26. BK

      "What's a system we can come up with?" So let's just say that was true in your childhood. In general, when you struggled, it was met with criticism judge- criticism and judgment rather than some type of, like, boundary curiosity, actual skill building like we've been talking about. Then what does your body do? Your body's always forming circuits, right? You're born with 25% of your circuitry. By age three, it's 75. By age five-

    27. SS

      Wow

    28. BK

      ... it's 90.

    29. SS

      Wow.

    30. BK

      These are... Yeah. Okay. And so when people say, "I don't remember," it's always interesting. Your body and how you react to your triggers are your best teachers for everything that happened in your early childhood.

  11. 33:40 – 35:51

    Simon's terrible temper as a kid

    1. BK

      Mm.

    2. SS

      I think most of my friends, even the team, most people have never seen me angry, and I'm not repressing it. I'm just much very good at managing anger and expressing it. I can say to somebody, "I'm really angry right now." But as a kid, I mean, like, like bad, inappropriate tempers.

    3. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SS

      And screamed at, yelled at, told to go to my room 'cause this energy has to come out somewhere. B- broke things, smashed my room up, got yelled at for smashing up my room, got yelled at for screaming and yelling and kicking things in my room and things like that, so it just made it worse, and I got even more... And it stopped when I took my favorite thing and I broke it, and then when did I finally calmed down, I'm like, [chuckles] "I just broke my favorite thing." Totally personally accountable, right? And I've always... This has been my story, which is my temper stopped when I realized it was only hurting me.

    5. BK

      But-

    6. SS

      But-

    7. BK

      Yeah. Yeah. But. [laughs]

    8. SS

      [laughs]

    9. BK

      You knew I was gonna say but. Did you know I was gonna say that?

    10. SS

      But in this session-

    11. BK

      Mm-hmm

    12. SS

      ... talking to you, I've realized what I wanted was in these periods of losing control and fully aware that I've lost control, fully aware that I'm not in control of my own, all I actually wanted was to, for somebody to make me feel calm and safe.

    13. BK

      Yeah.

    14. SS

      And it didn't happen. I got locked in a... Well, not locked, but left in my room until I calmed down.

    15. BK

      Yeah.

    16. SS

      And now when I think of myself as an adult, you talk to any of my close friends, the biggest compliment I give to my close friends, they all know this, is, "Thank you so much for making me feel safe." Right? And I think back to those times when all I wanted was to somebody to move in, uh, and the, the times now when I, when I'm, I won't say acting out, but nervous, saying the wrong thing. I can speak in very exact terms, which I think when, it can be very jarring for people, and what I really want is for people to lean in.

    17. BK

      Yeah, and contain you.

    18. SS

      And contain it.

    19. BK

      And be like, "I'm not gonna let you speak like that."

    20. SS

      Yeah.

    21. BK

      Yeah, I know.

    22. SS

      Yeah. I'm not gonna let you speak like that.

    23. BK

      'Cause you're a good person and I love you.

    24. SS

      And, and-

    25. BK

      Yeah

    26. SS

      ... you know, and it's not... And again, it doesn't come out in temper tantrums, but I can be very exacting-

    27. BK

      Yeah

    28. SS

      ... in my words to the point that I don't, people don't know what to do with it.

    29. BK

      Well, you, you know, I always think anger, anger is so misunderstood. Anger is a feeling that we have. It's our best

  12. 35:51 – 38:34

    Anger is our best feeling

    1. BK

      feeling because it tells us what we want and we're not getting. Anger is access to desire, and it's why women don't like to feel angry 'cause when we had tantrums, we were really sent to our room as little girls.

    2. SS

      Yeah.

    3. BK

      And it's wh- and what we learned is not that our tantrums are bad, but that our desires... You're a person with a ton of ideas-

    4. SS

      Yeah

    5. BK

      ... and a ton of want and desire.

    6. SS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    7. BK

      So you probably did have more anger than the average kid because of that.

    8. SS

      Yeah, for sure. For sure.

    9. BK

      Right? And now you've figured out how to channel it.

    10. SS

      Yeah. One of my worst habits as a leader, uh, and I'm looking at it differently now, uh, after talking to you. Instead of saying, "I need to fix that," which I do, but now I'm saying, "Okay, where is it coming from?"

    11. BK

      Hmm.

    12. SS

      Is a more interesting question.

    13. BK

      Yeah.

    14. SS

      I'm a reactor, right? So somebody will show me something, and I'll go through all the things that are wrong with it, and I make somebody feel bad and demoralized about the work that they do. I think the work's great. I just found a few things wrong with it, and I go straight to everything that's wrong, and I always forget to sayOr I often forget to say, "This is great work. Thanks for putting in all this effort. I re- I have a few comments." Right? So it makes somebody feel... I don't. I leave that little preamble out, and then I'm like, "Ah, shit, I hurt somebody's feelings. Let me go backtrack-"

    15. BK

      Yeah

    16. SS

      ... and be like... And, and now I'm looking at it through a new lens rather than a how can I, how can I stop being a reactor? Going, "All right, where did that come from?"

    17. BK

      When we wanna change something in a relationship with someone else, we always g- we generally get the starting point wrong. We can't change how we interact with someone else until truly, concretely, we change the way we interact with ourselves. And so if you know that happens, and by the way, I'm the same thing. I'm just so quick to being like, "No, no, no," but I... And then in my head I'm like, "That was an amazing meeting. I love that person."

    18. SS

      Yeah, it's exactly the same. I'm like, "Oh, shit."

    19. BK

      And they're like, "Ugh."

    20. SS

      "I, I love that person. I love having them on the team."

    21. BK

      Right.

    22. SS

      And they're like, "Oh, I can't do anything right." [laughs]

    23. BK

      And that's, and I think the only success I've had, and my husband has actually pointed this out, 'cause he said to me, "I used to think you were hard on everyone and hard on me," but he said to me, "I've realized, oh my goodness, like, imagine Becky's monologue to herself if that's the way she s- Like, imagine how hard she is on herself." And he's like, "It totally changed, like, I felt like, oh, I felt so much more compassion." And-

    24. SS

      Yeah

    25. BK

      ... I really took that in from him, and I think what that led me to do is find moments where whether it's burning the garlic, not leaving enough time to manage traffic-

    26. SS

      Hmm

    27. BK

      ... um, oh my goodness, I didn't respond to that email.

    28. SS

      Hmm.

    29. BK

      Actually truly saying in those moments, and this to me is a good framework, "I'm a good person who didn't respond. I'm a good person who didn't leave enough time."

    30. SS

      Yeah.

  13. 38:34 – 41:32

    Dr. Becky's favorite client

    1. SS

      in your professional life that filled you up more-

    2. BK

      Mm

    3. SS

      ... than sort of anything else ever has?

    4. BK

      Saw this really snarky teenager. I remember the first session. She w- the first thing, she came and I had, I did have a relatively old computer, and she goes, "That's your computer? You're pathetic." That's the first thing she said in the office.

    5. SS

      [laughs]

    6. BK

      And, and, and I, and I was like, game on, you know? I was, like, ready. And I was like, "Okay." And she was a cutter. She was cutting. And so I said, "Okay, well, tell me, how long have you been cutting?" And she goes, "Two years." I was like, "That's a long time. Your parents told me you've never seen a therapist before." And she goes, "Well, my parents wanted to send me to therapy two years ago, and I told them, 'If you send me to therapy, basically you're saying I'm fucked up and I'm a messed up kid, and you're kind of, like, saying you don't love me. Is that what you mean? And if you send me to therapy, I'm gonna go, and I'm gonna make up lies, and I'm gonna miss the appointments, and I'm just gonna waste your money.'" And my heart's racing so fast, Simon, as I'm telling you this. And then there was something in me. I don't- I just knew to say nothing.

    7. SS

      Hmm.

    8. BK

      And probably after 30 seconds, the entire mood shifted. She went from that, exactly how I said, and she just looked down. And when she looked up at me, she said, "Can you believe they let me make that decision?"

    9. SS

      Wow.

    10. BK

      The kids who act out the most are in the most pain. It, it, just so misunderstood, and I don't blame parents because, again, being able to see someone's pain and fear and desperation under their nasty words and behavior, that requires skills and practice and support and resources, and, and the only thing we're told at the hospital is that we should get a car seat.

    11. SS

      Hmm.

    12. BK

      And so these were such amazing well-meaning parents. They just, they didn't understand her.

    13. SS

      Hmm.

    14. BK

      And so that's taught me a lot about kids. It's taught me a lot about boundaries. So interesting, I was sharing this with someone in our community the other day whose kid was giving a hard time about therapy and said, "Dr. Becky, I used exactly what you said," which came from this. "We're going to a therapist."

    15. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    16. BK

      "That is my decision, and it's a decision because I love you and I believe in you."

    17. SS

      Hmm.

    18. BK

      "You can go. You can lie. My job is to get you there."

    19. SS

      Hmm.

    20. BK

      "I'm gonna leave work early every Thursday. I'm gonna drive you there. What happens in the room, I have no idea and is up to you, but there's nothing you can say that will change my mind about how important it is for me to do my job, and we're gonna start that tomorrow."

    21. SS

      You've helped a lot of teenagers. You've helped a lot of cutters. You've helped a lot of misunderstood kids. You've helped a lot of kids of parents who are struggling and just don't have the skills. What is it about this one, this one young woman who, again, of all the kids you've helped, she's the one you want to talk to me about?

    22. BK

      You know what it is? I guess, like, I really have a thing for

  14. 41:32 – 43:51

    "Bad" kids need protection too

    1. BK

      the kids who everyone labels as bad, as difficult, as defiant, as dramatic, the misunderstood kids. I- if I think back to my own childhood why, I was actually the opposite. I was way too good as a kid, if I think. Way too good. Took me too long to kind of get into my own desire and power and separation. I was so good, so maybe that's, like, the most repressed part of me, or maybe part of me envied [laughs] them. I don't know. But I think all the time I would hear from parents, um, you know, "Oh, my kid hits, and they're such a bad kid, and their poor sister." And, and it's so interesting. My framework was always different. Like, yes, the poor sister, we've gotta protect her. We have to protect your other kid. This kid is gonna build their identity as the bad kid. We have to protect that kid, too. That kid is in desperate need of protection. And I guess I feel, yeah, I guess I feel like, uh, someone needs to be a champion for these really good kids who are having a really hard time and are in desperate need of support and coaching and help and leadership.

    2. SS

      You practice the thing you preach so well, so well. I know too many people who write the book, but then you meet them, and you realize it's bullshit. Or maybe it was true up until they had fame and fortune, and then it stopped being true, you know? And you are so true to yourself and true to your work. You are the embodiment of the w- the stuff you talk about. What an honor. What an honor to sit down with you.

    3. BK

      Mm.

    4. SS

      Such joy.

    5. BK

      I, uh, thank you. I, I s- thank you. I'm taking that in. That feel- thank you. Feels really good.

    6. SS

      I could literally talk to you for forever. You've challenged me as a leader. You've challenged me as a, a... Like, I'm like, I've had free, free therapy. You don't even realize this.

    7. BK

      [laughs]

    8. SS

      How many, how many thing, how many little epiphanies and light bulbs have gone off of triggers and things that they're manifesting in all kinds of my relationships. This has been the best free therapy I've ever had.

    9. BK

      [laughs]

    10. SS

      Uh, thanks so much for coming on. I can't thank you enough.

    11. BK

      Can't wait for our next session then.

    12. SS

      Yeah.

    13. BK

      Look forward to it.

    14. SS

      Appreciate it. Thank you.

    15. BK

      Thank you.

    16. SS

      [upbeat music] If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.

Episode duration: 43:52

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