Live Like You Have 2 Years Left with dancer and cancer survivor Angela Trimbur | A Bit of Optimism

Simon Sinek 0:00 You survived cancer.

Angela Trimbur 0:01 Yes.

Simon Sinek 0:02 What kind of person were you before, and who are you now?

Angela Trimbur 0:06 If I had two years left, would I wanna say I stayed in my rent-controlled apartment and I continued holding onto this great space that I have? No, I'd wanna let it all go. I'd wanna let everything go that I own. I wanna move to Manhattan and be a dance teacher. And so I'm like, "Okay." I sold everything, and I moved with, like, $3,000 to New York City.

Simon Sinek 0:28 What if you found out that you only had six months left to live? You'd probably start knocking things off your bucket list, empty your bank account, and try and live life to the fullest. But what if you were told you had five years left to live? You might put some of those bucket list things off for a while and maybe think you had plenty of time to get them done. But what if you only had two years left to live? It's a strange middle ground. Not enough time to waste, but enough time to do things with more patience or intention. Well, that's exactly where Angela Trimbur found herself after being diagnosed with breast cancer. The result profoundly changed how she spends her time, the path her career took, and most powerfully, the person she became. Angela replaced her chase for perfection and her need to control everything with a pursuit of joy, and now, through what she calls sentimental weird dance classes, she helps other people tap into something they didn't even know they were missing. Angela has learned to live a life worth living, and she's teaching others how to do the same. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music]

Simon Sinek 1:49 This episode is brought to you by True Classic. I love their T-shirts. I've been wearing them for a long time before they became a sponsor. I personally like the V-necks and all of the basic colors. I like earth tones. I could d- get dressed with my eyes closed. It's pretty good. Um, but I love their stuff, and I'm really proud to have them as a sponsor.

Simon Sinek 2:08 You are f- one of my favorite artists.

Angela Trimbur 2:10 Whoa, okay.

Simon Sinek 2:11 And I'll tell you why.

Angela Trimbur 2:12 Okay, yes.

Simon Sinek 2:12 And I'll tell you why. I love art. I love all of the arts.

Angela Trimbur 2:16 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 2:17 I love dance. I love good theater. I like painting. I like photography. I like the arts. I like things that, that excite my senses. But the thing that I hate about the arts is the arts tend to be very exclusive-

Angela Trimbur 2:34 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 2:34 ... and also make people feel like, the, and, and inaccessible is the word I'm looking for. In fact, you know, I, you, you talk to, like, uh, symphonies or opera companies or even some dance companies, ballet companies, and all they do is complain about how they can't get new people to come, and yet they're arrogant and distant.

Angela Trimbur 2:50 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 2:50 And museums, the same. I've always said to friends, you know, the only reason you need to say why you like a piece of art is, "I don't know. I just like it."

Angela Trimbur 2:57 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 2:58 That's just where it starts.

Angela Trimbur 2:59 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 2:59 And one of the reasons you're my favorite art, one of my favorite artists, is because you have made a career out of making art accessible.

Angela Trimbur 3:06 Mm.

Simon Sinek 3:07 It is the least elite thing-

Angela Trimbur 3:09 Yeah

Simon Sinek 3:09 ... that you do.

Angela Trimbur 3:10 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 3:11 And the most welcoming thing that you do.

Angela Trimbur 3:13 Thank you. Yeah, it's really, like, um... To make something that I would want to be a part of is, is where that comes from, and I used to feel so, like I wanna spend time with artists, and I'd go to a dinner party with them. And for some reason, I still felt like, why am I, why is there a disconnect? And it's, big words are floating around, and I'm like, "I don't, I don't know that reference." You know, just these things that made me feel smaller and smaller. I respect these people, but there's something that just felt, yeah, feels like I drive home, and I'm like, "Wow, I, oh, I should've said this. I should've said this." But just so creating a, a world where there, that feeling doesn't come up for anyone is, is just what motivates me to...

Simon Sinek 3:55 I- in your training, you're, you don't, like, you don't, you're not a trained ballerina?

Angela Trimbur 4:00 No, I mean, my mom owned an ar- a dance studio when I was little, so I grew up in a dance studio, but no, I haven't trained since I was 12.

Simon Sinek 4:07 Which makes it even better.

Angela Trimbur 4:08 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 4:08 You know? What you do.

Angela Trimbur 4:09 I know. Sometimes I'm, I, like, don't wanna... I wanna study other choreographers' work and things like that, but then I'm like, ooh, but I don't wanna start getting in my head, and [laughs] I don't wanna learn counts. Like, I don't do counts in class. I like to think that's left side of the brain and-

Simon Sinek 4:24 Wow.

Angela Trimbur 4:25 Yeah, 'cause it really is.

Simon Sinek 4:26 So how did you start your... 'Cause you do basically, I mean, I guess it's best described as, like, pop-up classes.

Angela Trimbur 4:33 Yes.

Simon Sinek 4:33 They're like, it's, it's very guerrilla.

Angela Trimbur 4:35 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 4:35 You know?

Angela Trimbur 4:36 Wherever I can get a space.

Simon Sinek 4:36 Wherever you can get a space.

Angela Trimbur 4:38 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 4:38 You'll make an announcement on social media saying, "Having a class. Whoever wants to come, come," and that's the class, and that's when it is, and that's where it is.

Angela Trimbur 4:45 Yes.

Simon Sinek 4:45 There's very little, as you said, there's very little structure to it.

Angela Trimbur 4:48 Right.

Simon Sinek 4:49 How did that all start? 'Cause I know your stuff, 'cause I know, I, I just know it from social media.

Angela Trimbur 4:55 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 4:55 But I actually don't know your story, if I'm honest.

Angela Trimbur 4:57 Well, I think kind of, like, my first break into dance, so to speak, was back in 2012. I went, back when YouTube, kind of viral was a new word floating around, I had a dance video that went viral, and it was called Dance Like Nobody's Watching. And it was just that I had something due for this brand, Hello Giggles, and it was like I was staring at, like, a blinking cursor. I wasn't inspired. I didn't know what to do, and I'm, like, r- getting over a breakup, and I was sad about it. And I wanted to try to find some energy to push through 'cause that was why I was depressed and not writing, and so I thought, "Oh, why don't I, I'm gonna go to the laundromat where we had a breakup, and I'm gonna dance, and I'm gonna put headphones in." And so I just went, and I put headphones in, and I film myself dancing, and nobody looked at me or anything. Nobody even acknowledged me, and it turned into, like, okay, dance like nobody's watching 'cause nobody was. And I just shot it once, and that was it, and I handed that in as what, instead of the writing piece. And then they put it up, and it w- was, like, millions of views. It was on the news. Like, it was just this really crazy thing, and then it started, other people wanted to do Dance Like Nobody's Watching, and so people are starting to, like, dance in public places and calling it the same thing. And I did a few other ones. Then that's when, like, casting directors would see me 'cause I w- I was acting at the time, and, like, uh, casting directors were, like, m- in- curious about me and bringing me in, but as a dancer, like, just as this optimistic, let it all go dancer.So that kinda, like, put me on the map in that way. And then I started, um, a dance squad. We did, like, community, women's community basketball game halftime dance shows, which was kinda like a really more performance art, irreverent, 'cause we weren't... I don't know. There's just something really cool about-

Simon Sinek 6:48 You're not cheerleaders.

Angela Trimbur 6:49 We're not cheerleaders-

Simon Sinek 6:50 Yeah

Angela Trimbur 6:50 ... but you have a minute and a half to infect joy and keep the energy going.

Simon Sinek 6:54 Mm-hmm.

Angela Trimbur 6:54 So the concept of, like, a halftime dance, I love. You can't go wrong.

Simon Sinek 6:57 Mm-hmm.

Angela Trimbur 6:58 Um, and so I did that for six years, and then I started-

Simon Sinek 7:02 As a job?

Angela Trimbur 7:03 No.

Simon Sinek 7:03 Just for fun.

Angela Trimbur 7:04 Just for fun. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 7:05 With a bunch of friends.

Angela Trimbur 7:06 With a bunch of friends. It was an audition process. It was, like, a strict, like, you had to be there every-

Simon Sinek 7:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Angela Trimbur 7:11 ... you know? Like, it was a, that was very structured.

Simon Sinek 7:14 It was a commitment. Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 7:15 Yeah. And, uh, through that then, I also started doing these things called Slightly Guided Dance Parties, and [laughs] that was, like-

Simon Sinek 7:23 [laughs]

Angela Trimbur 7:24 'Cause I went to a house party, and I was seeing people in the living room just bopping. People are, they're just going like this, and I was, was just, like, watching. I'm like, "Why is every..." Like, no one goes for it. There's always one person that, like, goes for it, and they're, like, the drunk one or, like, the attention seeker. But I'm like, no, they're, they're actually the only ones really dancing here. And then that song came on that was like, "Throw your hands in the air. Wave them like you just don't care," and everyone seemed relieved to know what they should be doing. And I was like, oh, that's what they just need to be slightly guided.

Simon Sinek 7:56 So the song, the song gave them the guidance.

Angela Trimbur 7:58 Yes. And I saw the relief.

Simon Sinek 8:00 Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 8:00 And I'm like, oh, people just don't know what to do, so they're trying to exist without taking up space and dance, and... So then I thought, what if I just made a Slightly Guided Dance Party, and it would be me up there on stage, like, slightly guiding people through a dance party? Which, so it's, like, 60% guided, and then I'd, like, leave you off, and then you have three songs you could do on your own. But it really worked, and, um, it was silly. And I would give little, a little speech before to just kinda get everyone out of their shell. Like, "Don't try to be cool. There's no tunnel vision here. Like, make eye contact with people." It would be, I'd call it, like, Awkward Prom, and we'd start off with Awkward Prom. And I'm like, "You hold the other person this far away."

Simon Sinek 8:45 Right. Fran- Frankensteining.

Angela Trimbur 8:46 Yeah, exactly.

Simon Sinek 8:47 Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 8:47 You Frankenstein dance, and then I say, "Switch," and then you find somebody else, and it's to, like, you know, All My Life by K-Ci & JoJo. And so you're meeting, like, 17 new people, and you're starting all these conversations, and so, like, that's the icebreaker.

Simon Sinek 9:00 Mm.

Angela Trimbur 9:00 And then there's, I'd put on, like, Juvenile, like, Slow Motion.

Simon Sinek 9:04 Mm.

Angela Trimbur 9:04 And then everyone's like... I was like, "You have to dance in slow motion the whole song," and, like, people would do that. And then y- we are gonna dance three songs on their own. But just because they had some guidance-

Simon Sinek 9:12 Mm. Mm-hmm

Angela Trimbur 9:13 ... it really kind of started that, and then-

Simon Sinek 9:15 It, it, it broke the ice.

Angela Trimbur 9:16 Broke the ice.

Simon Sinek 9:16 So what I love about this is there's this m- magical creativity in it, which is, first of all, everybody has... Well, everybody. It's amazing how many people have the bumper sticker or the mag- the fridge magnet that says, "Dance like no one's watching."

Angela Trimbur 9:29 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 9:29 But it's an idea.

Angela Trimbur 9:30 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 9:31 Nobody actually does it.

Angela Trimbur 9:32 Right.

Simon Sinek 9:32 And I love that you actually did it.

Angela Trimbur 9:34 [laughs] Yeah.

Simon Sinek 9:35 Were you always that way? Are you sort of don't mind making a fool of yourself in public? Is that part of who you are? Or did that show up... I'm curious why it showed up when it showed up. Is it just something you w- It's like, oh, it's, it's Angela doing her thing again.

Angela Trimbur 9:48 No.

Simon Sinek 9:48 Or was that, uh, sort of out of, out of character?

Angela Trimbur 9:50 It was out of character. I was n- really nervous doing it. Like, it was just this thing where I'm like, "I'm so depressed. How do I get undepressed? How do I get myself through this?" And then I'm like, "What's scary? What's scary? Um, dancing in public is so scary." So then I, that's when I... I don't know what the light bulb was that made me wanna do it at the laundromat.

Simon Sinek 10:09 So it wasn't, like, a creative idea. It wasn't, like, a creative idea to get your assignment done.

Angela Trimbur 10:13 No.

Simon Sinek 10:14 It was-

Angela Trimbur 10:14 No, it hadn't... I, that was what I was gonna do to break the, myself up-

Simon Sinek 10:17 Got it

Angela Trimbur 10:17 ... so that I could go back to writing, and then just decided, like, "Well, I'll just hand this in instead." But no, I was really nervous. This was before TikTok, obviously-

Simon Sinek 10:26 Sure

Angela Trimbur 10:26 ... and, and before dancing in public got, became such a-

Simon Sinek 10:29 It's now a thing.

Angela Trimbur 10:30 Yeah, it's now a thing, so setting up a camera and then dancing. Um, no, it was really nervous. I didn't do things like that before, you know? Like, it was just for me. I wasn't even gonna-

Simon Sinek 10:39 Not even social

Angela Trimbur 10:39 ... knew what I was gonna do with it.

Simon Sinek 10:41 Oh, yeah.

Angela Trimbur 10:41 Yeah, 'cause I wasn't even posting things like that on social at the time. It was just for me. And I think that that's kind of, like, keeping things feeling authentic. Like, if you're just doing it for you, or if you're making something 'cause it doesn't exist and you want it to exist, like, those are things that-

Simon Sinek 10:56 Yeah

Angela Trimbur 10:56 ... have a purity to them that-

Simon Sinek 10:58 So we have to go down this path, which is you survived cancer.

Angela Trimbur 11:02 Yes.

Simon Sinek 11:03 How did it change you? How did it change who you are?

Angela Trimbur 11:06 Hmm.

Simon Sinek 11:06 Like, what kind of person were you before, and who are you now?

Angela Trimbur 11:10 Hmm. Well-

Simon Sinek 11:13 How long ago did you have it?

Angela Trimbur 11:15 I was diagnosed in 2018. Um, I'm surprised... I don't know when I'm gonna cry when I talk about things like that. But just your question posed that feeling. Um, I would say before, I was very controlling. I was really, um, codependent, even with the, the dance squad that I had, 'cause I, I was diagnosed when I was running the dance squad. Like, it was really like, "We're family. We're all together. Like, we meet this time. This is it. No, you can't... You're gonna come late? No, you can't come late." Like, I was, like, this, like, dance captain energy that was, like, kind of a character but not really because I really had these feelings. Um, like, with a, in relationships, I was really like, "Who are you texting?" You know, there was just this, like, grasp that I had on things, and that's just from, like, not being close with my family and when my family didn't really show up when I went through cancer. Like, you know, my sister, we're close, but we weren't super close at the time, and my dad and mom not, not showing up. It reminded me, like, wow, chosen family is, like, all I have, and this is probably why I'm, like, clingy like this to, to people.

Simon Sinek 12:21 More, more of afraid of losing them.

Angela Trimbur 12:22 More afraid of losing them.

Simon Sinek 12:23 Yeah, yeah.

Angela Trimbur 12:24 Yeah, and so holding on so tight. And then cancer just kind of taught me how to not overthink-So I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2018 and learned that I had the BRCA gene, which is like a family, you know, you have to reach out to your family. And so that was when I had to, like, finally reach out to my mom. I hadn't talked to her in so long. So it kind of, like, forced these dominoes to fall that I was kinda blocking. And letting go of saying goodbye to, like, your breasts that you've, that are, that represent motherhood, that are very sexual. Like, I loved my breasts. Like, I thought they were perfect and they were, like, my [laughs] they were, like, my calling card. Like, sexually, I, like, couldn't wait to undo my shirt and, like, reveal them in their glory. And so to have that be like, now you're not gonna have sensation there, and they're taken away, and they're not gonna be as attractive anymore, and you don't have that anymore, and I can't breastfeed, and like... So just all these things that I had as things I never thought I wouldn't. So you're kind of, like, stripped away from a lot of things that connected you to yourself and the future. And so there was a therapist that kinda came along with... Like Cedars has a... Not a lot of people know this, like, in the breast, um, cancer community, you have access to a therapist that's meant just for that. You have to kinda, like, know to ask for it. But I started working with one and she taught me about how the main goal is to keep your stress levels low. I'd ask her things and she'd be like, "Whatever makes you the least amount of stress, that's the decision that you make." And so I started kind of, like, anything that made me feel tense, I learned how to kinda let go. And I would say, in a nutshell, I just really learned about myself, and how to be gentle on myself, and how to let life unfold as it will, that you can't control things. You have to trust the universe, and you kinda have to trust fall backwards and be like, "I don't know what the plan is. I don't know what the lesson is, but I'm sure it's gonna make sense soon." And, like, when I was first diagnosed, all these survivors ca- you know, that I don't know, and they were like, "Trust me, you're gonna love who you become after, and you're not gonna regret it. You, you wouldn't take it back." And at first I'm like, "Yeah right, this is gonna be awful." But in retrospect, I really like who I became. I, I say that I had an edge to myself. Like, I was doing comedy. I was, like, making sketches and being funny and, like, always on. And going through cancer really made me relax and I feel softer. I'm a little bit more of an observer sometimes, feel more wallflowery. And sometimes I miss the zing zang girl, but I just feel, I, I, I like the softer side.

Simon Sinek 15:06 How did you learn to settle the mind? 'Cause it's easier said than done, right? Oh-

Angela Trimbur 15:11 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 15:11 ... just make the, don't stress yourself and don't overthink things. Like-

Angela Trimbur 15:15 Yeah

Simon Sinek 15:15 ... every overthinker overthinks about overthinking.

Angela Trimbur 15:18 Right.

Simon Sinek 15:18 You know? It's like-

Angela Trimbur 15:19 Yeah

Simon Sinek 15:19 ... "Stop overthinking. Stop overthinking. You're always overthinking." Like, what did you have to go to to actually settle the mind?

Angela Trimbur 15:25 Learning how to say no to things that don't sound... Like, I, I think the pandemic kind of taught a lot of people that, but I went through this before the pandemic. I just learned how you don't wanna do something that you have plans with, like, it's okay to cancel, like, because you're sick, so you, you kinda have a, an excuse. Well, it wasn't an excuse, but your energy levels, you're tired. Like, I had this respect from other people like, "Okay, she's literally, you know, in chemo, so if she wants to cancel plans, she can." But you don't have to be going through anything to do that.

Simon Sinek 15:58 Mm-hmm.

Angela Trimbur 15:58 Like, you don't have to have an excuse. It's just whatever-

Simon Sinek 16:01 Mm-hmm

Angela Trimbur 16:01 ... you need to get-

Simon Sinek 16:02 Mm-hmm

Angela Trimbur 16:02 ... through. And I think I was always a FOMO person. I don't wanna miss out. I can't let this person down. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna do this. I gotta do that, even if I don't want to. I don't know, there's just something that learning how to prioritize your needs was something I never really did. I was just acting out of fear.

Simon Sinek 16:19 During the pandemic, a lot of us learned that lesson.

Angela Trimbur 16:22 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 16:22 And then the pandemic ended, and the lessons faded away, and we went back to the people we didn't wanna be. You know, productivity obsessed-

Angela Trimbur 16:30 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 16:30 ... you know, et cetera. I don't think as many of us have kept the lifestyle or the lessons that we imagined that we would-

Angela Trimbur 16:37 Mm

Simon Sinek 16:37 ... now that it sort of seems so far away now, right? But you have kept it. You made it through the cancer. You made it through the chemo.

Angela Trimbur 16:47 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 16:47 And you didn't become controlling again. Your words, a different, better version of yourself.

Angela Trimbur 16:52 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 16:53 What have you done to not go backwards? Like, again, I understand it in it, but after it, you've maintained it. What's the mentality? What's the practice that you've been able to-

Angela Trimbur 17:04 Mm

Simon Sinek 17:04 ... maintain the calmness? I have to believe that the dancing like no one will see you, when was that?

Angela Trimbur 17:09 That was, like, 2012.

Simon Sinek 17:11 So that was pretty early.

Angela Trimbur 17:12 Yeah. So that, and that's also related to cancer. Because I was public with what

Angela Trimbur 17:18 I went through, I had a lot of people that came up to me that would see me in public like, "Thank you so much for sharing," and, "My mom went through this." And then I'd say, "Oh, good. How are they now?" And they're like, "Uh, well, it came back two years later." And, um, I kept hearing two. I kept hearing recurrence after two years, and I was like, "What is this two? What's the two message? Is it gonna come back for me?" And so I started thinking if I only operate as if I had two years left, and it sounds like it's a dark thought, but it's actually not, because the timeline makes sense for anybody. You don't stay stagnant. You don't have six months. You're not bucket listing. You're not blowing money. You're also not, like, five-year plan, where you're like, "I have some time to get there." Like, two years, if I only had two years left. And so I asked myself when I was living in LA, if I had two years left, would I wanna say I stayed in my rent-controlled apartment and I continued holding on to this great space that I have and just kind of... It's like, what would I wanna do? No, I'd wanna let it all go. I'd wanna let everything go that I own. I wanna move to Manhattan and be a dance teacher. I wanna say that I was a dance teacher in Manhattan. And so I'm like, "Okay, I'm doing it." I, I worked on this show called Search Party, and I lived in Brooklyn for the first time for three months. It was, like, a whole summer of filming, and as soon as I went there, I'm like, "This is another sign." So I, I-Sold everything and I moved with like $3,000 to New York City and, um, I don't know how I did it, but I got an apartment and I started, I was like, "I just have to start teaching." And through the dance following that I kinda built from all the other things I'd mentioned, 'cause I started doing these dance parties at like the MOCA in LA and I had, there were like 300 people coming, so I had like-

Simon Sinek 18:54 Museum of Contemporary Art. Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 18:56 Yeah. Yeah. So I had kind of like a following. And then the, the classes, somebody from the Times took the class unbeknownst to me and asked to do like a feature on me when I was there. And so after living in New York for two months, I had a Times article about my unique dance class approach, and then the classes ever since then were sold out and now I'm-

Simon Sinek 19:16 So th- this, first of all, let's, it's worth underscoring because it is such a profound thought, which is to live life as if you only have two years left.

Angela Trimbur 19:24 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 19:26 And as you, you said it, which is if it's a six-month sentence, you start bucket listing. You start emptying your bank account. Like-

Angela Trimbur 19:32 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 19:33 But if you said, if you have, "Oh, I've got five years," then you keep putting it off. And two years is sort of this kind of a-

Angela Trimbur 19:38 Sweet spot

Simon Sinek 19:38 ... kind of a sweet spot of like it adds some urgency, but not a crazy urgency and not a bucket list response.

Angela Trimbur 19:44 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 19:44 But rather I, I've always wanted to do this thing that is an investment-

Angela Trimbur 19:47 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 19:47 ... rather than a, than an event.

Angela Trimbur 19:49 What about you? What would you do?

Simon Sinek 19:51 That's a great question. What would I do?

Angela Trimbur 19:52 I feel like you kind of live like this already.

Simon Sinek 19:54 I kinda do. I kinda do. I sounded like Christopher Walken there.

Angela Trimbur 19:58 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 19:59 I kinda do.

Angela Trimbur 20:00 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 20:01 I kind of do for different reasons.

Simon Sinek 20:03 There's one thing that you said that I learned only pretty recently, which is I'm better at saying no, but the more important part is I don't owe anybody an explanation. And that's been very powerful for me.

Angela Trimbur 20:15 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 20:15 Because I think very often, look, I don't wanna lie, but when people say, "Can you do something for me?" And I, you come up with, "Well, I'm so busy." But at the end of the day, if I really wanted to do it, I'd find the time. Or canceling plans-

Angela Trimbur 20:28 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 20:28 ... 'cause I either just change my mind.

Angela Trimbur 20:30 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 20:31 You know, I canceled going to a wedding. You know, I RSVP'd yes. No, it's not like I, the day before, but like-

Angela Trimbur 20:36 Yeah

Simon Sinek 20:36 ... three months, four months before the wedding, I just decided I didn't wanna travel and I just didn't wanna go, you know?

Angela Trimbur 20:42 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 20:42 In that case, I probably owed an explanation.

Angela Trimbur 20:44 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 20:44 But, uh, but, uh, but I found that like I just say, "Thanks so much for inviting me, but I'm gonna pass," or, "I'm so sorry to do this, but I, I-

Angela Trimbur 20:52 It feels wrong

Simon Sinek 20:52 ... I'm, I'm gonna cancel."

Angela Trimbur 20:53 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 20:53 And I don't have to like text or say like all of this stuff to justify my canceling or justify saying no and tie myself into knots. The answer is I don't wanna do it, and that's-

Angela Trimbur 21:02 Yeah

Simon Sinek 21:02 ... that's it. And people are fine with it, I found. Nobody, no-

Angela Trimbur 21:05 People are

Simon Sinek 21:05 ... no- nobody slams their hand on the table and says, "Give me the reason." I'm like, "Nobody actually cares."

Angela Trimbur 21:10 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 21:11 And that's the other thing I've learned is nobody actually gives a shit about me at all. [laughs]

Angela Trimbur 21:14 Yeah. People are on their own journey. They're always thinking of-

Simon Sinek 21:17 They're on their, they're doing their own thing.

Angela Trimbur 21:18 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 21:18 And the only reason they get upset is because that somehow upsets their dinner table. [laughs]

Angela Trimbur 21:23 Right. Right.

Simon Sinek 21:24 "I had it planned for an even number, and now it's an odd number." It's like-

Angela Trimbur 21:27 Yeah

Simon Sinek 21:27 ... it's got still nothing to do with me. It's their table, not mine, you know?

Angela Trimbur 21:31 Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 21:32 And that's a very new lesson for me.

Angela Trimbur 21:34 It's powerful, too.

Simon Sinek 21:35 Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 21:36 Like, it, yeah, you-

Simon Sinek 21:36 It's not just the saying the no. It's that I don't actually owe an explanation.

Angela Trimbur 21:39 Yeah, 'cause so many times you're like, "Ugh, I gotta go to this thing." It's like, why?

Simon Sinek 21:43 Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 21:43 Why do you have to go?

Simon Sinek 21:44 Do you have JOMO now? Do you have the joy of missing out? Is your FOMO, you still got it in there?

Angela Trimbur 21:49 No, I, I would say there's, um, a joy of missing out for sure.

Simon Sinek 21:52 Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 21:52 There's just like a-

Simon Sinek 21:54 Like everybody's at the party and you're looking at it on Instagram and you're just at home in your, in your jammies with a tub of ice cream watching TV.

Angela Trimbur 21:59 [laughs] Yeah.

Simon Sinek 22:00 You know, it's like, "Have fun," you know? [laughs]

Angela Trimbur 22:03 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. There's no, there's always gonna be another party. There's always gonna be.

Simon Sinek 22:07 Right.

Angela Trimbur 22:07 It's not a one in once in a lifetime oppor- chance. Um, yeah, no one's thinking, everyone's thinking about themselves. Everyone's on their own

Angela Trimbur 22:16 journey.

Simon Sinek 22:17 Let's go back to the dance classes.

Angela Trimbur 22:18 Okay.

Simon Sinek 22:18 'Cause we haven't really... [laughs]

Angela Trimbur 22:19 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 22:20 Because we haven't really explained to anybody what they're like. It's whoever wants to come.

Angela Trimbur 22:24 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 22:25 As you said, there's no like, "One and two," and there's no counting.

Angela Trimbur 22:28 No counts.

Simon Sinek 22:28 There's no-

Angela Trimbur 22:29 There's no skill level

Simon Sinek 22:31 ... there's no skill level. Even the teacher has no formal training. [laughs]

Angela Trimbur 22:34 Mm-hmm. [laughs] Right.

Simon Sinek 22:35 The only skill the teacher brings is a love of life and the ability to dance like nobody's watching.

Angela Trimbur 22:41 Mm-hmm. Yep.

Simon Sinek 22:43 Which is what you do in spades. And what is so magical about your class is people living out these sort of childhood fantasies of, "I'm gonna be a ballerina" and take, and like little kids dressing up to go to take their ballet class.

Angela Trimbur 22:55 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 22:55 And your people, your students, they're dressing in pink tights and leotards, and it's dance class-

Angela Trimbur 23:02 Yes

Simon Sinek 23:03 ... as if we're little kids.

Angela Trimbur 23:04 Yes.

Simon Sinek 23:04 And kinda like little kids, nobody really knows how to dance, and none of it matters.

Angela Trimbur 23:08 Yes. It's, I, I teach a bunch of different kind of classes. Like one is called 13. That's the first one. My pitch before I teach is like, "Imagine we're all 13 years old again, and we're in a backyard, and it's just my backyard because I have the corner house and it's the bigger backyard. But there's no hierarchy here. We're just all making up a dance and we're gonna show our parents before dinner. And our parents would be like, 'Okay, that was interesting. Go wash your hands.'" Like the stakes are so low. No one's better than anyone else. No one's cooler than anyone else here. We're all, uh, like the same. And so that's called 13. And then there, the exercise is, like for some reason, hearing that gets people, okay, there's no Beyoncé's backup dancer here, like working mentally, like staying on top of choreo. Like we're just telling a story and the stakes are low.

Simon Sinek 23:56 It's making the show for the parents at dinner. I mean, as we've-

Angela Trimbur 23:58 Exactly

Simon Sinek 23:58 ... all done that.

Angela Trimbur 23:59 Yeah, exactly.

Simon Sinek 24:00 Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 24:00 You get it. Living room ba- recital vibes.

Simon Sinek 24:02 Lipstick as makeup.

Angela Trimbur 24:04 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 24:04 Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 24:04 Sure. Yeah. And, uh, so those classes, and then I s- then I, I went to a ballet class in New York 'cause I did wanna start immersing myself in the dance community. And I took ballet when I was a kid. I'm like, you know what? There's something beautiful and elegant about it, and I went and I found myself bored in the class. And no disrespect to ballerinas because they're athletes and what they do, they've dedicated their entire lives to it, but I'm in ballet class and I have to do like little tiny things to graduate to like-You can't just jump in and like, "We're gonna do some- a piece from Swan Lake today." You have to like graduate all these levels. And I'm like, "Oh, I wanna do this. I don't care about technique. I just wanna-"

Simon Sinek 24:47 Have fun

Angela Trimbur 24:47 ... wear the outfits and, and jump around and do arabesques and stuff.

Simon Sinek 24:50 [laughs]

Angela Trimbur 24:51 And so I thought, "Okay, why don't I just like create a beginner ballet class where we can pretend that we're prof- professionals?"

Simon Sinek 24:57 Mm-hmm.

Angela Trimbur 24:57 And because all the, you know, Center Stage, Black Swan, all these ballet movies that we're so obsessed with, it's because they're so unattainable. It's a world that you don't belong in because you had to have dedicated everything.

Simon Sinek 25:12 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Angela Trimbur 25:12 Or you were rejected from it 'cause you got boobs, or you'd had a bad turnout. There's a lot, also a lot of ballet trauma, which, uh, I noticed people that came to my 13 class afterwards, they thanked me and they're like, "I haven't been in a dance class since my ballet class when I was 7 or 12." So I realized that some of the dance blocks were from ballet trauma from people.

Simon Sinek 25:33 Mm-hmm.

Angela Trimbur 25:33 And they have this perfectionism stuck where they'll... Now they really don't belong 'cause it's been so long, and I can't. So that's when I started realizing, okay, that maybe there's this bridge here and I can start making this balletcore class. So balletcore, you know, is like this trend, or core, cottagecore, it's like you dress as if you live in a cottage. You're, you know, fairycore. You dress like you-

Simon Sinek 25:55 I don't know this.

Angela Trimbur 25:56 Oh, yeah, yeah. So balletcore became a fashion trend.

Simon Sinek 25:58 C-O-R-E or C-O-R-P-S?

Angela Trimbur 26:00 C-O-R-E.

Simon Sinek 26:00 Okay.

Angela Trimbur 26:01 And so I'm like, okay, I'll call it balletcore 'cause that's sort of the same thing. We're dressing like we are professional ballerinas. So that was the thing. And I'm like, oh, okay. And part of these movies are there's always, like, the mean teacher that comes in, or, like, the strict mademoiselle. There's always that villain in ballet movies. And I'm like, that's kind of also part of it. So if there's a ballerina, like, people would be like, "My teacher was so," you know, whatever.

Simon Sinek 26:28 Yeah, yeah.

Angela Trimbur 26:28 I'm like, okay, maybe in order for me to show how playful this is, I need to play a role, too. So I'm gonna play the role of Miss Angela. So I, like, walk into the studio, and I'm wearing, like, an all black 1940s outfit, and I have sunglasses and a fake cigarette 'cause all ballerinas smoke. So we have these, like, fake cigarettes. And I come in, I slam the door. Everyone's like, like, new people are like, "What's happening?"

Simon Sinek 26:54 [laughs]

Angela Trimbur 26:54 And all the other people that have been here before, like, they, "Oh, mm-hmm." And they get into this like, "Oh, shh, she's here, she's here," you know? And I'm like, "Bonjour, compagnie." And like, I, like, act like this. And, um, I hand out fake cigarettes to the new people, and I'm like, "Your role is to play, like, the rebel ballerina. So we're like the Mila Kunis of Black Swan. We're the, the motorcycle in Center Stage. We're the Rat Kings of the Nutcracker. Like, we are the rebels, so I want you to feel like that. I want you to... When I pass, I want you to pretend that you fear me, but also roll your eyes when I walk by. Like, I want this to be a playful world that you can just be the lead in your own ballet movie." And so it really started working with people. They get it right away. We have, like, our little ballet bar warm-up to, like, Unholy, which is, like, the, uh, Vitamin Strings quartet version of, like, this, like, sexy song. Part of it is, like, gossiping at the bar-

Simon Sinek 27:47 [laughs]

Angela Trimbur 27:47 ... twerking, putting your ass crack on the edge of a ballet bar. Like, we are pretending, but there is no technique. And there's also... It's not like a fuck you to ballet. It's more of just, like, a, the pain that it caused, the, the exclusivity, that it hurt me. I'm, I'm able to dance in it. And-

Simon Sinek 28:06 Well, it's being a kid again, isn't it?

Angela Trimbur 28:08 Yeah, certainly. It's super playful.

Simon Sinek 28:09 Ki- kids have no inhibitions, and they do things that are fun and playful, and-

Angela Trimbur 28:11 Exactly

Simon Sinek 28:11 ... they don't care what people think about them. And it's bringing that back to adulthood.

Angela Trimbur 28:15 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 28:15 They can take off the masks and the edifice, and they can put it all back on when they have to go to, go to work or do whatever it is they do.

Angela Trimbur 28:22 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 28:22 But for this brief moment, they can be kids again.

Angela Trimbur 28:25 Yes.

Simon Sinek 28:25 And the way kids are, dressing as a princess to, you know, go to school.

Angela Trimbur 28:28 It's true.

Simon Sinek 28:28 I mean, go right ahead. Sure.

Angela Trimbur 28:29 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 28:30 Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 28:30 Because the illusion, like, even I found myself, like, I'm like, "I wanna buy leg warmers for this beginner class," and, like, I wore them, and it's like, "Dork." Like, "Who's..." Like, "Who's the new girl?" Like, there was... I was like, "My... Oh." I'm like, "I'm gonna take them off. I guess I don't deserve to wear them." Like-

Simon Sinek 28:45 Right

Angela Trimbur 28:45 ... there's just something where I'm like, "No, let's dress the way... We wanna dress like this. We wanna play like this."

Simon Sinek 28:50 But, but it, but it took on a life of its own, right? 'Cause now you do summer camp.

Angela Trimbur 28:54 Yes. Well, also still with the ballet, by the way, like, the choreography, it is not basic. It's not beginner choreo. It is... Like, people see it and they're like, "I'm not gonna be able to do that." And I'm like, "No, no,

Angela Trimbur 29:07 no, you will," because we're telling a story. So there's no lyrics to classical, and so I have to invent a story. And so the stories that evolved-

Simon Sinek 29:16 Oh

Angela Trimbur 29:16 ... are really, like... One is, like, um, you're a widowed spider, and you're alone, but you're not lonely. And you live in this forest, and you're a really good web maker. Like, you make beautiful webs all over the forest. Like, if you have ever seen those, like, ones in Australia where there's, like, spider webs everywhere, I'm like, "That's you. You make these spiders, like, or spider webs," and they're so inc- in, um, artistic and huge. You don't do it for the likes or the follows. You do it just because you know it makes the forest beautiful. Um, so half the routine we're weaving webs, and, like, you're confident, and there's, like, this, like, confidence that they have to go through, too, and this, like, a web gets stuck in your foot. Like, doesn't matter. You're gonna take it off and throw it away in the wind. And then all of a sudden a bird flies over, and they're dropping a scroll, and you catch it, and you look, and lo and behold, it's the mayor of the forest who wants to give you an award for all the art you've dedicated to the community, and they wanna thank you. And so you cry 'cause you feel seen without needing that recognition.

Simon Sinek 30:18 [laughs]

Angela Trimbur 30:18 But now you have it, and you get crowned. Like, there's, like, all these, like-

Simon Sinek 30:22 Instead of memorizing the numbers-

Angela Trimbur 30:24 Numbers

Simon Sinek 30:24 ... and then-

Angela Trimbur 30:24 Yeah

Simon Sinek 30:24 ... instead of memorizing the beats and memorizing the moves, you play along with the story.

Angela Trimbur 30:29 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 30:29 And-

Angela Trimbur 30:29 So it's, like, all storytelling.

Simon Sinek 30:31 Right.

Angela Trimbur 30:31 And there's all... It's not like, "Arabesque, complete pirouette." Like, it's like-

Simon Sinek 30:35 Right

Angela Trimbur 30:35 ... "Grab the web and spin," and it's spinning out of your butt.

Simon Sinek 30:38 Right.

Angela Trimbur 30:38 You know? Like, so-But there's also like a deepness to it. Like sometimes when I do that routine, like I'm actually crying because I feel like seen for the first time. Like-

Simon Sinek 30:47 And that story is you.

Angela Trimbur 30:49 And that story, yeah.

Simon Sinek 30:49 I mean, I know you just made that story up, but that story is you. I mean-

Angela Trimbur 30:52 Yeah

Simon Sinek 30:52 ... you did the thing not for the likes and not for the follows.

Angela Trimbur 30:56 Right.

Simon Sinek 30:56 You did the thing for yourself. You did the thing to get over your depression. You did the thing for the joy.

Angela Trimbur 31:01 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:02 It just so happened that it went viral on the internet. It just so happened that there was a New York Times reporter in your class. It just so happened-

Angela Trimbur 31:09 Right

Simon Sinek 31:09 ... it just so happened, it just so happened.

Angela Trimbur 31:10 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:11 You know? And the success you've had is the unden- is the unintended byproduct of doing something incredibly joyful for others.

Angela Trimbur 31:17 Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So all of the routines have like-

Simon Sinek 31:20 And so that's-

Angela Trimbur 31:20 ... storylines like that

Simon Sinek 31:21 ... semi-autobiographical spiders.

Angela Trimbur 31:23 [laughs] They're all kind of like some semi-autobi- biographical. Like one of them is like, um, the Coppélias. Uh, you're, like it's from me. I, when I was a kid, I worked at Macy's, and I was 16, and I stole from Macy's, so now there's this witch named Macy, and she punishes anyone that stole. And now you're a mannequin, and it's the '80s, and you're stuck there, but you realize you love living in a department store, and like-

Simon Sinek 31:49 [laughs]

Angela Trimbur 31:49 ... the community is amazing. And at night, you all come alive, and you just jump on the mattresses. Like, there's like all weird connections to-

Simon Sinek 31:56 Well, then you just stole the, the script from the movie Mannequin with Kim Cattrall.

Angela Trimbur 31:59 Well, that's also-

Simon Sinek 32:00 I'm old enough, I'm old enough to know.

Angela Trimbur 32:01 I'm glad you know that, because that-

Simon Sinek 32:02 I'm old enough to know that.

Angela Trimbur 32:03 [laughs] Yeah.

Simon Sinek 32:03 Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 32:04 That's the only, like, VHS tape I had growing up.

Simon Sinek 32:06 Yeah, yeah. So-

Angela Trimbur 32:06 'Cause I was homeschooled growing up.

Simon Sinek 32:07 Right. So you stole from Macy's, and you stole the s- the story from Mannequin.

Angela Trimbur 32:10 [laughs] Yeah.

Simon Sinek 32:11 From '80s, from '80s movies.

Angela Trimbur 32:12 Yeah, exactly.

Simon Sinek 32:14 [laughs]

Angela Trimbur 32:14 Um...

Simon Sinek 32:15 This episode is brought to you by True Classic. And if you've ever wondered why our ads feel different, it's because they are. We don't just read ad real. We have real conversations with real people and make it into content that actually matters. Let's go back.

Speaker 32:31 Okay.

Simon Sinek 32:31 So you're a musician. Did you wanna be a professional musician?

Speaker 32:34 I wanted to be a music producer.

Simon Sinek 32:36 Okay, so you wanted to be a music producer.

Speaker 32:37 I played poker for a living after I failed in music. I went to Vegas, and even though I was decent at poker, I realized very quickly that even though I was the best of my friends, I was the worst as a professional-

Simon Sinek 32:49 Mm-hmm

Speaker 32:49 ... in the big leagues.

Simon Sinek 32:50 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 32:50 If I were to go back and take one good thing that came out of poker, it was the ability to fail. Because, man, do you fail a lot in poker. Because even professionals that play for a living, they can go to streaks where they just lose for a month and a half, and they just cannot figure it out. But they have to pick themselves up and go back and lose again. Get up the next day, go lose again. And you just really get numb. 'Cause if, if, if you don't get numb to that feeling, you're never gonna succeed in poker. It's just like something you gotta get used to. It's a big part of really breaking through in that industry. So that was one of the positives that came out of it. I built really good entrepreneurial DNA because, as you know, when you're an entrepreneur, it's all you do is fail because it always leads you to the better answer, and we're always seeking the truth, and we're not afraid to be wrong. Ben and I will sit and argue for 30 minutes about something, and all we're after is the truth.

Simon Sinek 33:42 Mm.

Speaker 33:42 You know, we don't care about our egos. We're just... We- that's what's really good. We're able to pivot on a dime if one of us brings up a good point, and I think if you instill that in the culture, it's really good for progress.

Simon Sinek 33:55 We don't have to go too deep into it, but I think it's, y- y- what's, these kernels of ideas that you have that blossom.

Angela Trimbur 34:03 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 34:03 You know, I guess they're seeds, not kernels, but these seeds blossom. Then you have summer camp, so now you're doing summer camp and bringing back all the silliness of going to summer camp when you're a kid.

Angela Trimbur 34:12 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 34:12 And you do a recital.

Angela Trimbur 34:13 Yes.

Simon Sinek 34:14 And it's called Recital.

Angela Trimbur 34:15 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 34:15 Like, you take your ballet students, and you book a venue.

Angela Trimbur 34:19 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 34:19 You have a real stage with real audience.

Angela Trimbur 34:21 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 34:21 And people buy real tickets.

Angela Trimbur 34:23 Yep.

Simon Sinek 34:23 And people come pay money to see... And it's usually family and friends, just like Recital.

Angela Trimbur 34:28 Yep.

Simon Sinek 34:28 And it's your students. And you said they take it so seriously.

Angela Trimbur 34:32 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 34:33 And they practice and practice and practice, just like we did as little kids because-

Angela Trimbur 34:37 Yes

Simon Sinek 34:37 ... we're on stage for our friends and family.

Angela Trimbur 34:40 Yes, and it has nothing to do with your career. And the more serious you take it-

Simon Sinek 34:43 And you've got doctors and lawyers and artists and every-

Angela Trimbur 34:47 Absolutely

Simon Sinek 34:47 ... everything in your, in your class.

Angela Trimbur 34:48 Not performers-

Simon Sinek 34:49 Not performers

Angela Trimbur 34:49 ... at all, really. Like, some people haven't even taken the stage. I, I realize that that's, like, part of it, so baller- if you're really a part of a ballet company that we claim to be, they're working towards something.

Simon Sinek 34:59 Right.

Angela Trimbur 34:59 So it gives us something to work towards. And there's this logic that I have from this too where I'm like, like through dance camp, there's new friendships that form. Through the recital, I get to cast a routine. So we do auditions, and the auditions are everybody makes it. You just have to audition. That's how you sign up for the recital. And you have to wear a number, and I, it's pur- it's purposely scary, but it's really not because the stakes are l- you already know you're, you got in. But they go through this thing together where they're like, "Oh, I'm so nervous. Like, why?" You know. And they're wearing the numbers, and they also still have their fake cigarettes, and then they, they audition. And then I really spend, like, so much time really thinking, like, "What routine for this person? I know this person. This person should have the spider storyline. I think that they could use that storyline as something they continue to work on."

Simon Sinek 35:46 Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 35:47 "I think that they're a little too obsessed with this success thing," and, like, so that. Or, "This person needs to have some anger. They're a people pleaser. In this narrative, she's really angry all the time in this story, so I'm gonna make her... Also, these two people will make friends. If they were to be getting together twice a week, like, I think that they'll become friends." So I'm casting.

Simon Sinek 36:06 So you're not-

Angela Trimbur 36:06 I'm Cupiding.

Simon Sinek 36:07 You're not casting for ability. You're casting for what you think-

Angela Trimbur 36:10 The emotional journey

Simon Sinek 36:11 ... what somebody needs in their life.

Angela Trimbur 36:13 Yes.

Simon Sinek 36:13 Which, again, semi-autobiogra- semi-autobiographically, this was your healing.

Angela Trimbur 36:18 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 36:19 And you're now using your art to, to heal others.

Angela Trimbur 36:22 Yeah, yeah. It's, and it's so fun.

Simon Sinek 36:24 And it's the core of what good art should be, right?

Angela Trimbur 36:27 Mm.

Simon Sinek 36:27 Good art should be for others. If it starts being for yourself-

Angela Trimbur 36:30 Yeah

Simon Sinek 36:30 ... or for the glory or for the likes, for the follows, for the money, for the whatever-

Angela Trimbur 36:33 Yeah

Simon Sinek 36:33 ... it kind of misses the point.

Angela Trimbur 36:35 It dilutes things.

Simon Sinek 36:35 Art is for people, which is why I hate that it has become elitist.

Angela Trimbur 36:40 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 36:40 And I hate that it isIt, it has become inaccessible because it has become a self-licking ice cream, that it takes itself so seriously-

Angela Trimbur 36:47 Yeah

Simon Sinek 36:47 ... that it forgets that somebody else gets to come and stand in the museum, and their experience is whatever they want it to be.

Angela Trimbur 36:53 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 36:53 And somebody gets to sit in the audience, and their experience is whatever they want it to be.

Angela Trimbur 36:56 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 36:56 Whether they're listening to something or watching something. And it's not about how great you are based on your standards, it's our fun.

Angela Trimbur 37:04 Yes.

Simon Sinek 37:04 It's our evening and it's our money.

Angela Trimbur 37:06 Right.

Simon Sinek 37:06 And so-

Angela Trimbur 37:06 It's true

Simon Sinek 37:07 ... why not make it for our joy?

Angela Trimbur 37:09 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 37:09 Or for our journey, or for our... You can do complicated things, that's okay.

Angela Trimbur 37:13 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 37:13 You can do things that hurt, or emotional, or political. It's all fine.

Angela Trimbur 37:16 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 37:17 But I, I... This is what you... Your art is so pure, which is why I think it keeps growing and growing and growing, and why people wanna be around it and wanna be, and wanna be a part of it.

Angela Trimbur 37:25 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 37:26 It's one of the reasons you're my f- one of my favorite artists.

Angela Trimbur 37:28 Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I feel really lucky. Like, I do think that I have a, a calling for bringing people together.

Simon Sinek 37:35 Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 37:36 And, uh, the fact that it's my job now is just... Like, my two, you know, this whole two-year thing, I'm like, "What would I do now?" I'm like, "Oh, I can't leave now. I can't go somewhere else. I have this dance community in New York. I don't know what else..." So I'm, I'm posing my question like, what would I wanna do now if I had two years left?

Simon Sinek 37:52 But isn't... But hold on. I think this is the definition of a wonderful life, which is if I only had two years left, I would change nothing.

Angela Trimbur 38:01 Hmm. Mic drop. Yeah. You're right.

Simon Sinek 38:04 Right?

Angela Trimbur 38:05 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 38:05 If I only had two years left-

Angela Trimbur 38:06 Maybe that's-

Simon Sinek 38:06 ... I would change nothing.

Angela Trimbur 38:07 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 38:07 I wanna be here. I wanna be with-

Angela Trimbur 38:09 Doing it

Simon Sinek 38:09 ... these friends.

Angela Trimbur 38:10 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 38:10 I wanna be with these f- with this family. I wanna do, doing this thing. I might tweak a little bit here and there, say y- yes to a couple more things, say no to a couple more others, but-

Angela Trimbur 38:19 Yeah

Simon Sinek 38:19 ... fundamentally-

Angela Trimbur 38:20 I'm on the-

Simon Sinek 38:21 I'm, I'm-

Angela Trimbur 38:21 I'm doing it

Simon Sinek 38:21 ... I'm good.

Angela Trimbur 38:22 Yeah. Wow, you're right. Hmm.

Simon Sinek 38:24 Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 38:24 Just relax a little bit more. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 38:27 [laughs] Tell me whether it's a specific class or a specific project, something you did over the course of these last few years that was beyond magical, like you absolutely loved being a part of. It doesn't mean it was easy, doesn't mean it was commercially successful or successful at all, however you wanna define it, but something that you were a part of that you absolutely loved, and if everything you did, if every project you did from this point on was like that one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive.

Angela Trimbur 38:56 Like the recital?

Simon Sinek 38:57 Anything. You can pick whatever you want.

Angela Trimbur 38:58 I think the recital. I mean, that's the most recent thing that f- so that's just top of my mind.

Simon Sinek 39:02 Is it this specific recital above all other past recitals that stood out more?

Angela Trimbur 39:06 Well, um-

Simon Sinek 39:07 'Cause you've done a few of them

Angela Trimbur 39:07 ... this is just the second one. So the-

Simon Sinek 39:09 Right

Angela Trimbur 39:09 ... first one, I think we, we were all a little baby deer-legged with it.

Simon Sinek 39:14 Mm-hmm.

Angela Trimbur 39:14 And this year, the narratives got tighter, like regard- or, or the, they got deeper. There's, like, OG students that could kinda guide the new students, but the new students kinda remind the OG students what the excitement was and-

Simon Sinek 39:28 Mm-hmm

Angela Trimbur 39:28 ... why we're doing it. I don't know, there was just some sort of specific energy with it, but it was really, really challenging too because as a leader, people, they wanna share everything that comes up-

Simon Sinek 39:40 Mm-hmm

Angela Trimbur 39:40 ... and you hold space and you listen. This year, it had a lot of that energy, people being nervous, people, having to place people, front line, back line. Like, that's really tough. That, I almost, like, didn't wanna do the recital for that part because I'm like, "It's not a big deal. It's not about that, but this person does tell the story really well, and it-

Simon Sinek 39:58 Yeah

Angela Trimbur 39:58 ... makes everyone look really good because they're telling the story. And so that trickles to this person who maybe isn't as confident in facial telling stories yet. Like, there's popcorn reasons, like, and I have to tell, "It's not about the line placement. Please, like, it's not about that. We're all together. But also, yes, you are there." You know, I don't know. There was just a lot that came up, even for me, like having to ask myself and remind myself of, like, what am I standing for? Does it have to be this person's in the front and center and-

Simon Sinek 40:26 So what, what, what was it about recital that if every project you do from this point on was like recital, you'd be the happiest person alive?

Angela Trimbur 40:33 I think it's because I got to see people change.

Simon Sinek 40:35 Oh.

Angela Trimbur 40:35 Like, when from the beginning of the process, even, like, their first balletcore class to the recital, like, they have so many friends now. Their confidence levels are-

Simon Sinek 40:46 Mm-hmm

Angela Trimbur 40:46 ... skyrocketing. They're dressing-

Simon Sinek 40:47 Mm-hmm

Angela Trimbur 40:47 ... the way they, they've always wanted to dress. There's just something about it where I'm like, "This is what it's about." Like, it's about-

Simon Sinek 40:53 Mm-hmm

Angela Trimbur 40:53 ... the journey, doing, opening paths for people. And, like, when I watch, when I Cupid people and I see their friend, I see them hanging out outside of class, I'm like, "That's, I knew that one was gonna, they were gonna be friends."

Simon Sinek 41:03 Mm-hmm.

Angela Trimbur 41:03 There's just something so satisfying about seeing people coming out of their shell.

Simon Sinek 41:08 Mm-hmm.

Angela Trimbur 41:08 And this specific year, it felt extra special with everything that's going on in the world. Like, feelings are so anxious, and so giving people a space where it's like, okay, and while we're here, we're focusing on this spider story or we're, you know, like, there's something to care about that can be, um, towards a goal and working towards a team. We're all working as a team towards something.

Simon Sinek 41:30 Mm-hmm.

Angela Trimbur 41:30 There's just all... It, like, checks all the boxes-

Simon Sinek 41:32 Mm-hmm

Angela Trimbur 41:32 ... of things that feel special.

Simon Sinek 41:34 Tell me an early, an early childhood memory, something specific that I can relate with you.

Angela Trimbur 41:39 Okay. [laughs] Uh, happy childhood memory for anything I think of. I mean, I g- I, my mom pulled my sister and I out of school when we were, when I was in fifth grade, and so I was homeschooled. She became a Jehovah's Witness, and I kind of feel like we got, like, convinced to get homeschooled even though, like, we were promised a lot of things like, "You can graduate earlier. You can wear your pajamas, like, all day long." Like, I don't know, there were just things that were, oh, cool, but all of a sudden, like, no, you also have to be a Jehovah's Witness, and that's part of your schooling. Like, you have to go door to door. That's public speaking. You have to read the Bible. That's part, history. So all of a sudden, we were kind of, like, living a very trapped life. But my sister and I were best friends. We weren't allowed to hang out with anybody else really. We had only each other. And every day at 3:15, the bus stop was at the end of our driveway, and so we wanted to go back to school so bad. And so we would, like, at every day at 3:15, we'd, like, go, and we'd, like, watch the people get off the bus together. And I know it s- sounds like a sad memory, but that's just what popped up, like sitting with my sister, like, looking through the window at all the cool kids getting off the bus and, like, wishing we could be a part of it. [laughs] I don't know why that's a nice memory, but that's, like, a very vivid-

Simon Sinek 42:52 But that's something you did frequently.

Angela Trimbur 42:54 Yeah, almost every day.

Simon Sinek 42:54 Is there, is there a specific memory that I can relive with you?

Angela Trimbur 42:57 Well, um, for some reason this just popped up. Like, we didn't celebrate holidays or anything, and I remember being in my bedroom, like, so New Year's, I always would, like, had a fantasy about New Year's, and I'd just put the clock radio under my pillow and, like, listen to the countdown alone, like, through the clock radio and hearing, like, the neighbors celebrating. I don't know. Wow, these, these are a lot of memories of, like, fishbowl, like, stuck inside of a, a thing wishing you could be a part of something else. I don't know why they seem like sweet memories to me, but they're very, like, I don't know, times where I remember the most were when I'm self-soothing or something.

Simon Sinek 43:40 But it, but but that's very connected to the other memory, right? Which is to the other, to the, to the recital experience, which is there is a fishbowl aspect to our lives, and there is a wishing we could go do something-

Angela Trimbur 43:50 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 43:51 ... or be someone-

Angela Trimbur 43:52 Mm

Simon Sinek 43:53 ... or change our-

Angela Trimbur 43:53 That's true

Simon Sinek 43:54 ... change our environment, change our surroundings, and feeling like we're behind the window pulling the curtain aside looking out at everyone-

Angela Trimbur 44:01 Mm

Simon Sinek 44:01 ... thinking, "Oh, if only." And then what you have done is, and you, you used these words, which is you cleared a path.

Angela Trimbur 44:09 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 44:09 Which is you gave people, you know, y- everything you say is helping people through, out of, over the fishbowl. Your slightly guided dance parties-

Angela Trimbur 44:20 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 44:20 ... which is, "Come. Come, I'll show you."

Angela Trimbur 44:23 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 44:23 You know? "I'll show you the person you wanna be."

Angela Trimbur 44:25 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 44:25 "That you can be."

Angela Trimbur 44:26 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 44:26 And it's not just a, a dance class for amateurs who aren't dancers. You play the mean teacher. You're in a movie.

Angela Trimbur 44:35 Right.

Simon Sinek 44:35 Because if you think about it, we get our cues about the lives we wanna live, for better or for worse, watching TV, watching movies, looking, looking through the literal or proverbial window-

Angela Trimbur 44:45 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 44:46 ... through the fishbowl.

Angela Trimbur 44:47 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 44:47 And wishing our lives could be like that, and you create these fantasy worlds. And it is a perfect sitcom. It is a, not sitcom, romantic comedy of, you know, boy meets girl, there's something that gets in the way, and they always fall in love at the end.

Angela Trimbur 45:02 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 45:02 There's always a happy ending.

Angela Trimbur 45:03 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 45:04 And that's sort of what you do, which is you give people this unbelievable hope that life is actually pretty good. And sure, it's got its grumbles and its ups and downs, but there is a happy ending. The way you describe your journey through cancer, you mean, like, you're giving people these paths to happy endings.

Angela Trimbur 45:21 Mm.

Simon Sinek 45:21 It is very fairy tale.

Angela Trimbur 45:22 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 45:23 Um, even the, the, the yarns that you spin.

Angela Trimbur 45:26 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 45:27 They're fairy tales, but they're, the difference is, is you let people actually go on the journey of finding themselves, and I find that, that's perfect.

Angela Trimbur 45:36 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really think that-

Simon Sinek 45:38 It's perfect

Angela Trimbur 45:39 ... I think that the community of it all, too, is really, um, what is the most healing, too. Because to bring people together and to have a goal and to have a vision for it, people show up, like, trusting you, and most people are really down to, to show up and explore something new. You can, like, really have, like, a plan for people and, and, um, I don't know. These are just things that I'm learning, like, uh, regarding bringing people together. It's, and it makes me excited about life because the ev- possibilities are endless. It doesn't have to be a ga- a dinner or a party. Like-

Simon Sinek 46:17 It's a-

Angela Trimbur 46:17 ... you can make unique hangs and-

Simon Sinek 46:20 Yeah

Angela Trimbur 46:20 ... like, a dance class is, are different because everyone's showing up, like, with an intention for themselves. Like, so even an introvert is there, and maybe they're like, "I'm shy. I don't know how to make friends," or, "I'm, I'm not good at talking to people," but they are forced to do so when we're doing the awkward prom.

Simon Sinek 46:37 Mm.

Angela Trimbur 46:37 And it is a nice moment because everyone is, um, guided into it.

Simon Sinek 46:43 Yeah.

Angela Trimbur 46:43 Sometimes we do, like, pass that Dutch. Like, that's, like, the Missy Elliott thing and we're like, you're just, like, passing energy to peop- There's, like, all these games that force you to connect with someone, but in a way where you know that you're gonna feel better and more open afterwards.

Simon Sinek 46:57 Mm.

Angela Trimbur 46:57 So it's not just like a dance class. You go and, and there's all these exercises to get you out of your shell.

Simon Sinek 47:01 Mm.

Angela Trimbur 47:01 And then, yeah, the narratives of all the routines that I come up with are something that someone should be healing through.

Simon Sinek 47:09 What's the difference between the healing we do that is visible and the healing we do that is invisible?

Angela Trimbur 47:14 Hmm. Healing we do that is visible. What would be something in your mind that's a visible healing?

Simon Sinek 47:22 Therapy.

Angela Trimbur 47:23 Uh-huh. Okay. Um-

Simon Sinek 47:27 Dance class.

Angela Trimbur 47:28 I see. Okay. So I think invisible healing maybe are the life lessons. Like, you don't, we don't get to see life lessons on somebody. Um, we don't get to see, like, "Oh, now I see why I made that mistake," you know? Um, I think the healing just comes in, like, the aftershock of a situation you were in. Um, and we don't really see it, but you'll see it within yourself the next time something like that comes up and that you, "Oh, it doesn't, that doesn't sting as much," or, "I didn't go back to that, um, personality trait of this people-pleasing thing." I don't know. It feels like, um, you don't get to see the, the lessons on other people.

Simon Sinek 48:08 Which is a reason why you should, we should throw ourselves into things.

Angela Trimbur 48:11 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 48:11 Because sometimes the invisible things that we don't really know that are gonna happen, and we may not be aware of them until later. They may not become visible-

Angela Trimbur 48:18 Exactly. It all makes sense

Simon Sinek 48:18 ... until you've gone through it.

Angela Trimbur 48:19 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 48:20 And so, as you said, you never wanna go through having cancer again.

Angela Trimbur 48:24 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 48:25 But you like what happened as a result.

Angela Trimbur 48:28 Yeah. I really do. I really, really do. I, I, I think all the time what, what would, it would be like. I mean, there's obviously things I s- I wish, like, um, I wish that I could have kids. I wish that sex wasn't painful. Like, there's, like, a lot of things where I'm like, "Ugh." It's not like I'm like, "Ooh, I'm in my best," like-

Simon Sinek 48:47 Right

Angela Trimbur 48:48 ... but it, from an emotional standpoint, I, I d- I definitely like my personality better. But yeah, there's a lot of things that I'm still like, "Ugh, fu-"

48:57 Ah, I remember that. But, um, yeah

Simon Sinek 49:01 You are wonderful

Angela Trimbur 49:02 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 49:02 I'm so glad you came on. I think you, you're a, a, a path illuminator. I think you're a, a door opener

Angela Trimbur 49:12 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 49:13 I think you're a, "Let me pull the, let me pull the bushes aside and show you that there's a, a bit of a worn path that you, you can also walk down."

Angela Trimbur 49:22 Yeah

Simon Sinek 49:22 "You're not the, you're not, you're not the first one. You're not the trailblazer. Some- I'll show you."

Angela Trimbur 49:27 Slightly guider

Simon Sinek 49:28 Slightly g- a slightly guider

Angela Trimbur 49:29 Yeah

Simon Sinek 49:30 A guide slightlier

Angela Trimbur 49:31 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 49:32 Uh, kinda like you and your sister as little kids looking out the window. For other people, those would be traumatic memories, and for you, they're actually quite warm. And I think the reason they're warm is the sen- sense of not alone. You know-

Angela Trimbur 49:43 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 49:43 ... you listening to other people, you're n- listening to the neighbors celebrate New Year's Eve. There's a vicariousness to it. Like, you can actually enjoy the joy of others

Angela Trimbur 49:51 Yes

Simon Sinek 49:51 And with your sister, you know, the sort of s- what should be depressing, watching other little kids get off the bus, but you had each other, that you could-

Angela Trimbur 49:58 Yeah, it's like a bonding

Simon Sinek 49:59 There's a bonding thing, and I think you talked about your cancer, and it's the other cancer survivors who be like, "You'll like yourself better," and the therapist who helped guide you

Angela Trimbur 50:06 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 50:06 And these people keep showing up in your life that you now do for others as well, and there's this beautiful yin and yang, like I am the person that I'm looking for

Angela Trimbur 50:14 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 50:14 You know?

Angela Trimbur 50:15 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 50:15 And you've been very blessed that people have been there for you in these times that should be really stressful and even are really stressful, but because someone else was there who's either gone through it or is just going through it with you, and that's what you do. You said the old, the old, the OGs will help the newbies

Angela Trimbur 50:30 And the newbies help the OGs

Simon Sinek 50:32 And the newbies help the OGs

Angela Trimbur 50:33 Yeah

Simon Sinek 50:33 And there's this beautiful, and you said it before, a community, this, this, th- that we have a responsibility to our fellow human beings-

Angela Trimbur 50:41 Yeah

Simon Sinek 50:41 ... both in short form and long form, you know, in, in the immediacy of the interaction. Like, ask the barista how they're doing and actually care about the answer

Angela Trimbur 50:49 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 50:50 You know?

Angela Trimbur 50:50 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 50:51 Um, smile, hold a door

Angela Trimbur 50:53 Yes

Simon Sinek 50:53 Like, there's these, the, the lessons that you're teaching are, it's, you're not, you're not the only person in the world-

Angela Trimbur 50:58 Yes

Simon Sinek 50:58 ... even though you feel sometimes like your problems are wh-

Angela Trimbur 51:01 Yeah, take the tunnel vision away and-

Simon Sinek 51:03 And that's, and I think that's one of the reasons you're dancing like nobody's watching is everyone was watching, and that's what was so s- inspiring about it

Angela Trimbur 51:11 Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah

Simon Sinek 51:13 Literally everybody watched it. Millions and millions of people-

Angela Trimbur 51:16 Yeah

Simon Sinek 51:16 ... watched you dance like nobody was watching

Angela Trimbur 51:17 [laughs] Yeah, yeah

Simon Sinek 51:19 You know?

Angela Trimbur 51:19 It's very ironic, yeah

Simon Sinek 51:21 Yeah. You're beautiful. I think it's beautiful. I just think the whole thing's magic

Angela Trimbur 51:25 You gotta come to a class

Simon Sinek 51:26 I know

Angela Trimbur 51:27 Gotta get you there

Simon Sinek 51:28 All right. Meant to go yesterday, but-

Angela Trimbur 51:29 Mm

Simon Sinek 51:30 ... I screwed up my schedule. We have a mutual friends. We got to meet once before, but I've, I've stumbled upon your work. I don't even know how. You know, I think just the magic of Instagram just showed me something, and I was like, "Huh?"

Angela Trimbur 51:42 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 51:42 And it was not what I expect, you know? It's, it was bumpy and messy and human and imperfect and silly, and the more I went down the Instagram rabbit hole of who you are and what you stand for and why you do it, it is art in its purest form. I think for me, the lesson is, is what would you do if you only had two years left and live like that every single day

Angela Trimbur 52:01 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 52:01 And thank you so much for sharing everything you've learned with us. It's good stuff

Angela Trimbur 52:06 Thank you for having me. This is an honor, for real. Thank you.

Simon Sinek 52:09 Mm.

Angela Trimbur 52:09 This was lovely

Simon Sinek 52:11 A Bit of Optimism is brought to you by The Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbinus, David Ja, and Devon Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to simonsinek.com. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other