The Business Case for Good Manners with etiquette coach William Hanson | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Good manners aren’t just about being polite — they’re about making other people feel seen. William Hanson is one of the world’s leading etiquette coaches. He’s advised royalty, CEOs, and television personalities on how to communicate with clarity, confidence, and grace. But his mission goes far beyond fine dining or proper handshakes. In today’s fast-paced, informal world, William argues that etiquette isn’t outdated — it’s essential. Whether you’re trying to land a job, win over a client, or simply connect with others, good manners are your most underrated advantage. He sat down with me to share how etiquette builds trust, why it’s not about snobbery or perfection, and how anyone — regardless of background — can learn the unspoken codes that open doors. This… is a Bit of Optimism. Check out William’s new book "Good Manners" here: https://www.williamhanson.co.uk/books And learn more about his work here: https://www.williamhanson.co.uk/ --------------------------- This episode is brought to you by True Classic! I really love their T-shirts, so we called them up and asked if they wanted to work together. And they said yes! Check out their clothes at: http://trueclassictees.com/ --------------------------- + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game. + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Live Online Classes: https://simonsinek.com/classes/ Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek Simon’s books: The Infinite Game: https://simonsinek.com/books/the-infinite-game/ Start With Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/start-with-why/ Find Your Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/find-your-why/ Leaders Eat Last: https://simonsinek.com/books/leaders-eat-last/ Together is Better: https://simonsinek.com/books/together-is-better/ + + + #SimonSinek

Simon SinekhostWilliam Hansonguest

Jul 15, 202554mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

60 min read · 12,264 words

0:00 – 0:45
Why conversation etiquette fails: competing instead of listening
1. SSSimon Sinek
  What are some of the specific things that you have seen that a lot of people get wrong
2. WHWilliam Hanson
  It's when you are having a conversation at a networking event, cocktail party, what- whatever it is. A lot of people, sort of, what you'll be doing a story about a skiing accident, for example, that you've had. You were on, you were skiing 10 years ago, you had some accident. And most people seem to, will listen to that and will be thinking, "What story do I have about an accident I've had on holiday?"
3. SSSimon Sinek
  Right.
4. WHWilliam Hanson
  Rather than, "Let me ask you a follow-up question."
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
6. WHWilliam Hanson
  Let you have that moment. Whereas people are obsessed with trying to match or beat the story, and it becomes competitive.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
8. WHWilliam Hanson
  Because we have become so insecure, I think, generally, people feel that they need, or they feel they need, again, to bond. Oh, to bond, I've got to say that I've gone through the same process as you.
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
10. WHWilliam Hanson
  It's very tiring.
0:45 – 3:55
What etiquette is really for: making others feel they matter
1. SSSimon Sinek
  It is said that manners maketh the man. That was said in the 14th century. So 600 years later, do our manners really say something about who we are? According to William Hanson, our manners absolutely say something about who we are, but not for the reasons most people might think.
2. WHWilliam Hanson
  How to eat a pain au chocolat.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  William is an etiquette coach from England and the executive director of The English Manner, an etiquette and protocol coaching company, and his latest book, Just Good Manners, is now available in the US. He knows a thing or two about how to use our cutlery and a lot more.
4. WHWilliam Hanson
  What's the difference between an arrival time for a social occasion and a business occasion?
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Where most people think that good manners is about showing off or trying to look or sound upper class, in reality, good manners are about making other people feel like they matter, which is a very good reason why we should all practice good manners. This is A Bit of Optimism. This episode is brought to you by True Classic. I'm so proud that True Classic is a sponsor, 'cause I really like their company, and I really like their CEO, and I really love their clothes as well. I've been wearing their T-shirts long before they became a sponsor. Do check them out. We should talk about etiquette.
6. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yes.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Um-
8. WHWilliam Hanson
  We should
9. SSSimon Sinek
  ... I am fascinated that, I don't know how to put this politely, I'm fascinated that you have a career.
10. WHWilliam Hanson
  [laughs] Thank you. Well, my, my family is, is stunned I have a career, so.
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Uh, because, not because there's no need for etiquette.
12. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm.
13. SSSimon Sinek
  It's because it's less, it seems less of a thing in our modern day. Like, the Victorians talking about etiquette-
14. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm
15. SSSimon Sinek
  ... and commenting on someone's etiquette-
16. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah
17. SSSimon Sinek
  ... and making sure that you have etiquette-
18. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm
19. SSSimon Sinek
  ... was a thing.
20. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah, it was very big for them.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  Uh, and we are a more informal time, we're in a more informal time where, and I live in America where, and I, I was r- raised with a proper English upbringing, you know, where I got in trouble for, you know, elbows on the table.
22. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm.
23. SSSimon Sinek
  And I, I learned to use a knife and a fork with, you know-
24. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah
25. SSSimon Sinek
  ... fork in my left hand, cut with the right hand. And I, and showing up in America and I see people stabbing their steak and cutting it and switching hands.
26. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
27. SSSimon Sinek
  And I was incensed. The Englishman in me was incensed.
28. WHWilliam Hanson
  And have you started doing that?
29. SSSimon Sinek
  No.
30. WHWilliam Hanson
  No.
3:55 – 6:41
How William became an etiquette coach (and avoided rugby)
1. WHWilliam Hanson
  Well, it was, yeah, it wasn't, I didn't wake up one day and go, "Well, this is what I'm gonna do." I, I was, this'll come as a shock to you, Simon. I was quite a precocious child.
2. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
3. WHWilliam Hanson
  And my grandmother gave me a book of etiquette when I was 12 for Christmas. And I, to be honest, didn't l- sort of leap at the chance to read it, but she used to stay with us and would s- sort of keep saying have I read any of it. So I thought, "Well, I, I will go and find it. I will open it up in the middle, read a bit, and then I can tell her I've read it." And actually, I read the whole thing quite quickly. It was very interesting, but it posed lots of questions. I wanted to know why we had to do certain things, and so I bought more books very quickly.
4. SSSimon Sinek
  More like the history. Like-
5. WHWilliam Hanson
  The history, like how did we end up here or what is the logic behind doing this? It was all very well to give me a rule-
6. SSSimon Sinek
  Right
7. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... but I wanted to know, well, what's the justification-
8. SSSimon Sinek
  Right
9. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... for doing the rule? You can't have a rule for no apparent reason, otherwise it makes no sense. And so I bought more books, didn't really make a thing out of it. And then when I was at school, when I was 16, my, one of the teachers came up to me and said, "Oh, could you teach the younger years how to set a table? We need, uh, we need them to learn for various reasons. Would you do it on Tuesday?" And I said, "Well, does that mean I don't need to do rugby?"
10. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
11. WHWilliam Hanson
  And they said, "Yes." And I said, "Sign me up." And basically, my career, now 18 years into it, has just been one long excuse to not do any sport.
12. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
13. WHWilliam Hanson
  And nobody's stopped me. Um, I wanted at that time to be either Archbishop of Canterbury or, um, a spy. Those were my, those were my options.
14. SSSimon Sinek
  You could, could do both.
15. WHWilliam Hanson
  I could do both maybe.
16. SSSimon Sinek
  That would be really good actually.
17. WHWilliam Hanson
  Ex- exactly.
18. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
19. WHWilliam Hanson
  That's a novel. Um, but, uh, anyway, that, not particularly for any religious reasons, um, but just I like the robes, and I thought that looked fun.
20. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
21. WHWilliam Hanson
  And I thought, how many people want to be Archbishop of Canterbury as well?
22. SSSimon Sinek
  Two.
23. WHWilliam Hanson
  T- yeah, well, yes.
24. SSSimon Sinek
  Two.
25. WHWilliam Hanson
  Two.
26. SSSimon Sinek
  The guy right before the Archbishop of Canterbury-
27. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yes
28. SSSimon Sinek
  ... and you.
29. WHWilliam Hanson
  And me.
30. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
6:41 – 8:14
Who hires etiquette training—and the CFO story
1. SSSimon Sinek
  So who, who goes to The English Manner? Who pays to learn etiquette?
2. WHWilliam Hanson
  We work with corporates. We work with individuals. We work with royal households elsewhere, uh, all over the world.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  A- and, and when you say corporates, is it more, like, executives learning how to use, go to a dinner party and not offend anybody when you have 10 knives and forks?
4. WHWilliam Hanson
  No, uh, well, we, we have done that, but no-
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Well, I'm very proud I know how to do that. It's very easy. Just work from the outside in.
6. WHWilliam Hanson
  Exactly, yes. That's it.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Start on the outside and go in.
8. WHWilliam Hanson
  I would say we, I mean, with the corporate work, we, we do some- sometimes do C-suite level training with, with sort of people that ne- need a bit of polish. We had someone who basically they wanted to make their CFO, but was terrible at entertaining and conversation. Was, was, uh, could work, work themselves around a spreadsheet nicely, could do the deal-
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Right
10. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... just had really bad table manners and bad interpersonal skills. They don't anymore.
11. SSSimon Sinek
  So-
12. WHWilliam Hanson
  They were then made CFO
13. SSSimon Sinek
  ... so, so how did this person, what were considered bad table manners that were so-
14. WHWilliam Hanson
  Noise
15. SSSimon Sinek
  ... egregious that he was turning people off, that he was actually putting his career in jeopardy?
16. WHWilliam Hanson
  Noise.
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Meaning, like-
18. WHWilliam Hanson
  We can hear it
19. SSSimon Sinek
  ... the way he was eating?
20. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yes. It, yep.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  Ooh.
22. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mouth open.
23. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
24. WHWilliam Hanson
  Food flying everywhere.
25. SSSimon Sinek
  Right.
26. WHWilliam Hanson
  Not pour, like, you know, glass of water or wine, whatever they're drinking, and just pouring for themselves rather than pouring for other people first.
27. SSSimon Sinek
  Oh, rude, yeah.
28. WHWilliam Hanson
  Putting themselves first, and that's really what manners are about, is just putting other people first before you. It's very-
29. SSSimon Sinek
  Right
30. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... selfless, and it, I think, is an excellent, uh, habit to get into.
8:14 – 10:35
Myths, symbols, and the “posh” misconceptions (including the little finger)
1. SSSimon Sinek
  This is good because this is, I think when we hear the word etiquette, you think prim and proper, you know, m- you know-
2. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm-hmm
3. SSSimon Sinek
  ... little finger out when you're drinking tea.
4. WHWilliam Hanson
  Well, no. Well, you do think that, but the little finger out, supposedly there's a little bit of historical evidence to show that that was a sign in Louis XIV court to tell someone that you had syphilis.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
6. WHWilliam Hanson
  So it's got absolutely nothing to do with being posh necessarily. It was the posh people that were doing it initially.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Because they all had syphilis.
8. WHWilliam Hanson
  'Cause they all had syphilis-
9. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
10. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... and it wasn't polite to sleep with someone without letting them know you had an STI. I believe we still have the same, uh, rule today, and so it was a sort of a silent code whilst they were drinking their tea at the end of a, um, end of a sort of a large dinner. At Versailles, for example, they would, uh, flirt-
11. SSSimon Sinek
  That's brilliant
12. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... and if they stuck their finger out, it was me just politely, non-verbally letting you know, "Well, I've got syphilis, and if you stuck your little finger out, great. Well, 'cause we can't get it twice," and off we went.
13. SSSimon Sinek
  I have to say that if nothing else, this is the most valuable thing you've shared.
14. WHWilliam Hanson
  [laughs]
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Um, because from now on, anybody who thinks they're being posh and sticks their finger out-
16. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah
17. SSSimon Sinek
  ... I'm going to ask them if they have syphilis.
18. WHWilliam Hanson
  Exact- yes. Get the, get the Antibac wipe out and sort of-
19. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
20. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... wipe, wipe them down.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  So, so, so y- you helped this guy, and it m- it's, I have to, you have to use your skills of etiquette to tell somebody-
22. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah
23. SSSimon Sinek
  ... it's pretty awful sitting across a table from you.
24. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yes.
25. SSSimon Sinek
  Because I, I, I mean, I've sat across from people who, I'm thinking of somebody right now, and he's extremely successful.
26. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm-hmm.
27. SSSimon Sinek
  And I can't sit at a table with him 'cause [smacks lips] is-
28. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
29. SSSimon Sinek
  And how, so how do you even broach the subject? I guess it's been broached by them sending off, sending him off to this school.
30. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yes. I mean, it's, a- and we have, regardless of who is c- coming through our doors, uh, or we go to see at The English Manner, you have those that sort of have paid the invoice themselves-
10:35 – 13:18
Please, thank you, and the debate: are we getting ruder or just older?
1. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah. Uh, does the world offend you?
2. WHWilliam Hanson
  The world doesn't offend me. The world annoys me.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
4. WHWilliam Hanson
  Um, there's a lot to be annoyed about that's so basic, and, uh, people, I just want the best for people, basically.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  So I get offended. I'm, I'm, I think it's probably because, again, I had a pretty standard English-
6. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm-hmm
7. SSSimon Sinek
  ... upbringing, you know?
8. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Um, and I remember when I first moved to America, and I'd go to, like, a coffee shop or something.
10. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
11. SSSimon Sinek
  And the person standing in the, in the line in front of me would go to the barista and say, you know, "Espresso," you know? I was like, "Please?"
12. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah, mm-hmm.
13. SSSimon Sinek
  And then they would be handed it, and they'd just walk away, and I would say, "Thank you," and, and-
14. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah
15. SSSimon Sinek
  ... I, I, you know, I'm less pedantic about it, but I, it does register.
16. WHWilliam Hanson
  Absolutely it registers.
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Like, it goes in my head.
18. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  Like, simple pleases and thank yous, it's not, it's not, it's not pompous, and it's just, I think it's being nice to another person. I guess you're right. It's a selflessness, right?
20. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah, exactly.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  It's acknowledging that somebody is doing something for you and that they have done something for you.
22. WHWilliam Hanson
  And it's taken no extra effort to tag on a please or a thank you-
23. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
24. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... on, onto a sentence.
25. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
26. WHWilliam Hanson
  Doesn't cost anything. It takes no extra time. It's, it's, it's, it's a bad habit that people have fallen into and probably because no one's pulled them up on it.
27. SSSimon Sinek
  So if we're polite, we'd say that the world has become more casual. If we're impolite-
28. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm-hmm
29. SSSimon Sinek
  ... we can say the world has become ruder. So-
30. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah
13:18 – 17:16
Etiquette evolves: cuisine, introductions, gender, and rank
1. SSSimon Sinek
  And we also have to remember that these standards of etiquette, they change from culture to culture.
2. WHWilliam Hanson
  Totally, and they, and they change within cultures as well.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  'Cause we're talking about English etiquette predominantly.
4. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah, and-
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Which, which is different than American etiquette.
6. WHWilliam Hanson
  Well, it's more uptight-
7. SSSimon Sinek
  It is much more-
8. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... generally
9. SSSimon Sinek
  ... uptight, generally.
10. WHWilliam Hanson
  And what I write in my book or say on Instagram or in my lessons, w- I would hope that in 20 years' time, I'd hope at least half of it's completely irrelevant, because etiquette has got to evolve and adapt and reflect the society that is around us. It would be ridiculous if I was still talking to you about the ... I mean, I was just talking to you about the etiquette of Louis XIV, but only with a-
11. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
12. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... with a historical context. Uh, but if I was saying, "Well, in the court of Louis XIV you had to wear a ruffled sleeve. Simon, why are you not in a ruffled sleeve today?"
13. SSSimon Sinek
  Right, right.
14. WHWilliam Hanson
  It'd be ridiculous.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Right.
16. WHWilliam Hanson
  And that's why I think etiquette gets a bad name, because sometimes people sort of hold onto these rules and, and don't, um, don't allow them to adapt.
17. SSSimon Sinek
  It's associated with your grandmother.
18. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yes, and-
19. SSSimon Sinek
  And fuddy-duddy.
20. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  And when I, when I was a young person I had to do this, you will do this.
22. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
23. SSSimon Sinek
  Even though that was 60 years ago.
24. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm-hmm, yeah. And they may be right in some instances. I'm not saying they're always gonna be wrong, but etiquette has to evolve.
25. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah, yeah.
26. WHWilliam Hanson
  It has to adapt.
27. SSSimon Sinek
  So, so l- and I, and I ... The same with language, right? Language changes and evolves and, and the OED, the, the, the dictionary, is a living, breathing animal.
28. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm. Yeah.
29. SSSimon Sinek
  Um, uh, a great book by the way called Word By Word if you're into the, how dictionaries-
30. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm
17:16 – 20:54
Names, introductions, and why etiquette saves (or sinks) deals
1. SSSimon Sinek
  That's so interesting, 'cause when I'm thinking, I'm thinking, like, how I introduce people.
2. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  I, and I think what you've done by-
4. WHWilliam Hanson
  Well, at least you do, Simon, 'cause so many people just think, "Okay, hello."
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Well, I have this, I, I don't know if it's a disease or, uh, I don't know what it is, but I sometimes forget the names of the people I'm with.
6. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  And I, I always tell my friends, um ... And, and sometimes I forget names. I have a lo- I'll forget names a lot. I tell my friends when we go to social situations, or even if it's work, I say, "I will always introduce you to somebody. If I don't-
8. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm
9. SSSimon Sinek
  ... please introduce yourself-"
10. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah
11. SSSimon Sinek
  ... "because it's, I don't, because I don't remember somebody's name."
12. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
13. SSSimon Sinek
  Because I'm trying to avoid somebody saying to me, "Aren't you going to introduce us, Simon?"
14. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  And then I'm screwed, 'cause I don't know the names.
16. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yes.
17. SSSimon Sinek
  So, uh, and the worst is when there's, like, six people and I know, I remember five names and not one. I can't introduce anybody.
18. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm-hmm.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  So I, I sometimes make no introductions-
20. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah
21. SSSimon Sinek
  ... out of fear of getting a name wrong.
22. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah. Uh, w-
23. SSSimon Sinek
  'Cause that's worse, right?
24. WHWilliam Hanson
  It i- it, um, yes, and our name is so personal. It's the only sort of thing that really belongs to us-
25. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
26. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... massively, and so if someone gets it wrong-We can get, some people get quite peeved
27. SSSimon Sinek
  I mean, yeah
28. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah. Because, uh, especially if we've said it five minutes ago
29. SSSimon Sinek
  But I'm just trying to think, like, when I do make introductions, um, i- assuming I remember all the names, um, I, I'm trying to think if there's a hierarchy in how I do it. Sometimes I just go in order, just, like, from left to right-
30. WHWilliam Hanson
  Lovely
20:54 – 24:49
COVID changed greetings—and the problem with ‘I’m a hugger’
1. SSSimon Sinek
  COVID.
2. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  Have you seen etiquette changes as a result of COVID? 'Cause we know we were all insanely casual.
4. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yes.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  You know, we would show up on calls unshaven, hair a mess, everybody in, you know, athleisure.
6. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  I would, I mean, I, and I was thinking to myself, "This is the best. I'll never wear jeans again for the rest of my life."
8. WHWilliam Hanson
  [laughs]
9. SSSimon Sinek
  I like wearing sweatpants way too much. [laughs]
10. WHWilliam Hanson
  Well, I'm pleased to say that Simon is sitting here in jeans.
11. SSSimon Sinek
  I am in jeans.
12. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah. Um-
13. SSSimon Sinek
  They're stretchy, though.
14. WHWilliam Hanson
  They're stretchy, but that's fine.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
16. WHWilliam Hanson
  Um, I, yeah, I think we're st- uh, I think we've... COVID was, was interesting from an etiquette point of view, as you say. We, I think we reassessed who we, when we then were able to socialize with each other in real life, we w- was sl- certainly in Britain, you can tell me what it was like in America, we considered who we were greeting and how we were greeting them because I think in pre-COVID we had got quite, particularly in London, overly tactile-
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
18. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... with people that we didn't really know.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
20. WHWilliam Hanson
  And we sort of default pulled them in for a hug.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
22. WHWilliam Hanson
  And it was the first time we'd met them. Why, why the dickens are we hugging them?
23. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
24. WHWilliam Hanson
  If you're gonna hug them on the first time, what are you doing the second time you meet them? Doesn't leave anywhere to go. So I think when, with the sort of the, the more consciousness of germs and our personal space and distancing, I think we're like, "Okay, no, maybe a handshake," or even not even a handshake, but maybe just, well, we've only just met, so let's build up some affection, and then maybe when we say goodbye or the second time we greet, we'll do a, a slightly more genuine-
25. SSSimon Sinek
  Okay, real etiquette question now then.
26. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm.
27. SSSimon Sinek
  Okay? People will come up to me, uh, and I will shake their hand, and this is, like, in every context, social, business, everything, right? And I'll put my hand out to meet them, to shake their hand, and they will say, "I'm a hugger."
28. WHWilliam Hanson
  Oh, hate it.
29. SSSimon Sinek
  Okay?
30. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
24:49 – 29:56
The “breathing bird” principle: tiny cues that elevate professional presence
1. SSSimon Sinek
  So let's, let's take this into practical land-
2. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm
3. SSSimon Sinek
  ... right? Which is, I, I, I think that ... So I, I've told this story before, but I'll tell you 'cause I think you'll appreciate it-
4. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yes
5. SSSimon Sinek
  ... of how I think about etiquette.
6. WHWilliam Hanson
  Okay.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Right? And some of the things that you're talking about in a professional context-
8. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah
9. SSSimon Sinek
  ... especially. In the early days of w- of Disneyland-
10. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah
11. SSSimon Sinek
  ... uh, the Imagineers who build-
12. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm
13. SSSimon Sinek
  ... Disneyland, um, had built what they thought was the perfect animatronic bird.
14. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  It looked like a bird. It, it moved like a bird. Perfect bird. And so they couldn't wait to show Walt Disney. They bring him in, they do the demo, it flaps, it moves its head, and they're like, "Eh? Eh?" And Walt goes, "Nope. No one will believe it." And they're like, "What are you talking about? It's absolutely perfect."
16. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm.
17. SSSimon Sinek
  And he said, "It's not breathing." And they said, "No one will notice." And he said, "People can feel perfection."
18. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  And he's right. People will look at it and be like, "I don't know what it is, but there's something wrong with that bird."
20. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  "It's not real." Right? And I think etiquette is the same thing, which is, which is these, they're very subtle sometimes.
22. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm.
23. SSSimon Sinek
  It's very, the pleases and thank yous, for example.
24. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
25. SSSimon Sinek
  It's very small, but for some reason it will elevate-
26. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm
27. SSSimon Sinek
  ... the way people think about you, the way they regard you, even though they may not be able to say the reason why. And I think that, for me, is the reason to learn some of the things that you talk about, and especially-
28. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm
29. SSSimon Sinek
  ... in a professional context, is because if it's a job interview especially-
30. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm
29:56 – 32:54
Sponsor interlude: True Classic and “surprise and delight” customer care
1. SSSimon Sinek
  This episode is brought to you by True Classic, and this ad won't sound like regular ads, because it's not. Instead, I sat down with Ryan and had an hour-long conversation with him, and we pulled out some of the best clips so that their ad is real content. I hope you enjoy.
2. SPSpeaker
  We have a basically an unlimited budget for surprise and delight for people.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  Well, give me some examples.
4. SPSpeaker
  So a guy in New England, uh, I found out he was a big Tom Brady guy. He had a terrible experience. I got on the phone with them, I worked it out, and I went on Amazon and found a signed Tom Brady poster. It was easy, I could mail it to him, and it meant so much to him.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  This is genius. You, you have a- a customer has a bad experience.
6. SPSpeaker
  Yeah.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  You get on the phone to personally apologize.
8. SPSpeaker
  Yeah.
9. SSSimon Sinek
  In the course of that conversation, you learn he's a huge Tom Brady fan.
10. SPSpeaker
  Yes.
11. SSSimon Sinek
  You don't just send him, like what most companies would do, like, "Hey, I'm really sorry you had a bad experience. Here's a bunch of our product."
12. SPSpeaker
  Yeah.
13. SSSimon Sinek
  You go and find what he actually likes and send him what he actually likes.
14. SPSpeaker
  Yes.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Nothing to do with your company or your product.
16. SPSpeaker
  Nothing.
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Just to say, "We screwed up. I'm sorry. Here's something I know you want."
18. SPSpeaker
  Yeah, because, like, this is how you gotta show up for people. You gotta go way overboard, you know? Even if they never buy us again, it's got an amazing ripple effect.
19. WHWilliam Hanson
  Um, and the other, my other sort of number one rule for people in relationships, and something that I had to tell my husband, uh, to do, is that, you know, obviously you're spending your life with them. You probably have heard the anecdote 1,000 times-
20. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
21. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... before.
22. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
23. WHWilliam Hanson
  When somebody goes to tell that anecdote at a party, "Well, I've got a fantastic anecdote, anecdote about this," what the husband, wife, spouse, partner should not do is go, "Oh, this one again," out loud.
24. SSSimon Sinek
  You-
25. WHWilliam Hanson
  They might be thinking that, absolutely.
26. SSSimon Sinek
  You've described my whole career.
27. WHWilliam Hanson
  [laughs]
28. SSSimon Sinek
  Just repeating the same six stories.
29. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
30. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
32:54 – 41:51
Public noise, phone etiquette, and how to correct strangers politely
1. WHWilliam Hanson
  Well, it literally, I mean, well, this is not professional, although, I mean, I guess it has a professional context to it. The, it happened on the, on the Elizabeth line getting here today, the London Underground. Speakerphone calls.
2. SSSimon Sinek
  Oh, God.
3. WHWilliam Hanson
  It's pandemic. Everywhere you go, even on the New York subway when I did, well, I was on it once, uh, earlier this year.
4. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
5. WHWilliam Hanson
  Um, it, it, people just seem to think that just because we have this technology and that we can make a speakerphone call-
6. SSSimon Sinek
  My pet peeve, I have many, one of them is, uh, people that keep ringers on in public places.
7. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
8. SSSimon Sinek
  So, like, uh, like, uh, you're sitting on a plane-
9. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm
10. SSSimon Sinek
  ... waiting to take off or you've just landed, and the ringers are on, so you hear bloop, bing, bloop, bing, bloop, bing. And it's like, just the little thing on the side, just flick.
11. WHWilliam Hanson
  You should, a phone should make no noise.
12. SSSimon Sinek
  A phone should make no noise unless you need it to make noise because you have a babysitter and they're calling and you gotta take the call.
13. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah.
14. SSSimon Sinek
  I get it. But the, the... And I, I think it's an age thing. I've noticed slightly older are com- seem to be oblivious-
15. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yep
16. SSSimon Sinek
  ... that their phones make noise.
17. WHWilliam Hanson
  Broadway, I was watching Death Becomes Her a few weeks ago, and person sitting behind me, older woman, not old, but older woman than the, the lady I was with, her smartwatch kept pinging-
18. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
19. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... because she had a text.
20. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
21. WHWilliam Hanson
  And I was sort of d- I was turning around, but she wasn't getting it. And the, the seat, the, the distance was quite high between the seats. So in the interval, I turned around and said, "Oh, hello. Hope you're enjoying the show. Um, could I just ask, could you please silence your smartwatch because it's making a, a noise every time you get a text?"
22. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
23. WHWilliam Hanson
  And she genuinely, she looked completely as if I... She was like, "Oh. Oh, right. Okay."
24. SSSimon Sinek
  Like, didn't even realize.
25. WHWilliam Hanson
  As if that was not a thing. The, the people that you were with didn't go-
26. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
27. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... "Mom," or whoever it was, "could you just, like, stop that?"
28. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah. So-
29. WHWilliam Hanson
  Such extraordinary behavior
30. SSSimon Sinek
  ... so let's get into this because I think one of the reasons that we don't tell people, you know, we, we, we, we, we sit and seethe-
41:51 – 48:41
Dining rules, peas, and the real logic behind table manners
1. SSSimon Sinek
  But using your h- your knife and fork properly-
2. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah
3. SSSimon Sinek
  ... doesn't do anything for anyone else at the table.
4. WHWilliam Hanson
  Uh, it keeps the food on your plate and going from plate to mouth without it flying off onto the table-
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Is that the history?
6. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... is what I would suggest. Ish. I mean, we've, there's gonna be elbows in-
7. SSSimon Sinek
  'Cause, 'cause the Tu- didn't the Tudors eat with their hands?
8. WHWilliam Hanson
  The Tudors did, yeah, absolutely. Um, uh, the sort of fingers-
9. SSSimon Sinek
  The Tudors would be Henry VIII-
10. WHWilliam Hanson
  Henry VIII
11. SSSimon Sinek
  ... Mary-
12. WHWilliam Hanson
  Elizabeth I
13. SSSimon Sinek
  ... Elizabeth I.
14. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah, exactly.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  The last Tudor was Elizabeth I.
16. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yes. Um, but yeah, fingers going down the, the eating implements. Elbows tucked in. Cut, stab, bring up to mouth with, with fork. It's a nice e- e- you also, there's a practicality, and I think this is where British and American dining slightly differs. British dining generally, and European dining, we favor long, straight-Edge tables. Nice sort of re- think about the Downton Abbey dining room. It's that nice sort of rectangle-
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Right
18. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... that they've got. Um, in fact, the day of, the day that we are speaking, we have the, uh, state visit of France to Britain.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  Yes.
20. WHWilliam Hanson
  It's the first state visit they will be doing at Windsor Castle since 2014. I assume, uh, w- it's the first one the King has done at Windsor Castle as king. I assume it is going to be in St. George's Hall, the dinner, on a really long table that seats about 160. I mean, it's really quite a knockout shot when they release that. This, this, typical that he'll do round tables tonight just to annoy me after saying this.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
22. WHWilliam Hanson
  But my point is, Britain-
23. SSSimon Sinek
  He's, he's not a traditionalist
24. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... he's not a traditionalist, no, and that, that's, which is good. But he, uh, sorry, we, we have these sort of straight-edge tables, and you're jam-packed next to each other-
25. SSSimon Sinek
  Right
26. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... so you have to keep your elbows in.
27. SSSimon Sinek
  Right.
28. WHWilliam Hanson
  Because if we were all doing this, Buckingham Palace, which is going through refurbishment work, but Buckingham Palace in the state ballroom, you have 18 centimeters of space between the center of your plate and the center of someone else's plate. It, you are like a sardine.
29. SSSimon Sinek
  Wow. 18 centimeters?
30. WHWilliam Hanson
  18 centi- 18 inches.
48:41 – 53:29
Disagreement, insecurity, and etiquette as a ‘driving skill’ you practice
1. SSSimon Sinek
  Um, when we encounter someone rude-
2. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm
3. SSSimon Sinek
  ... or we are disagreeing with them-
4. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm
5. SSSimon Sinek
  ... w- how do we use our manners to signal our discomfort or, you know, uh, uh, uh, find a way to move on?
6. WHWilliam Hanson
  We've reached, we've reached a stage in life when we meet or interact with people who have different opinions from us, where w- we can't leave that conversation until they have come round to our way of thinking.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
8. WHWilliam Hanson
  And I would say that's because we're probably so insecure in our own opinions and, and our own point of view that we thus have to sort of make sure that that other person i- is, is on our way of thinking. And life would be so dull if everyone had the same opinions-
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm
10. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... and had the same, w- w- was, was wired the same way. I know as long as they don't make speakerphone calls in public, then, then-
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Sure
12. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... other than that, that's, that's the exception.
13. SSSimon Sinek
  Playing the harp on speakerphone.
14. WHWilliam Hanson
  Precisely, yes.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm.
16. WHWilliam Hanson
  Um, but actually just, you don't need... If someone can say something that, okay, if it's, if it's an isth or an ism, you know, it's bigoted, it's racist, et cetera, sexist, fine, I do get it. You can call them out on it. Um, but if they just say something, it's like, okay, well, I clearly don't, don't think, d- no way do I agree with you. Either you can ask them a que- a f- again, asking them a follow-up question-
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah, yeah
18. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... sort of go into it in more detail.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  Be curious, be curious.
20. WHWilliam Hanson
  Be curious-
21. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
22. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... as to how they are thinking that. Or you just go, "Well, how interesting," and ask them another question.
23. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
24. WHWilliam Hanson
  You don't have to comment on everything. You don't have to have a reaction to everyone else's reactions.
25. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
26. WHWilliam Hanson
  You also cannot know. People ask me my opinions on all sorts of things all the time, and my honest answer is, "I don't know. It's not, it's not my area. It's, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I don't know."
27. SSSimon Sinek
  I find-
28. WHWilliam Hanson
  "I don't know how to feel."
29. SSSimon Sinek
  I find to, to add levity to a situation, what I mean is instead of taking something super seriously like scowling and like, okay-
30. WHWilliam Hanson
  Mm
53:29 – 54:57
Why ‘manners’ is the better word—and closing reflections
1. SSSimon Sinek
  And I think that's where I think you get a bad rap, which is people-
2. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yeah
3. SSSimon Sinek
  ... think that you're stiff.
4. WHWilliam Hanson
  The word etiquette is so preloaded with, which is why on my-
5. SSSimon Sinek
  It's got too many T's in it, which is very formal
6. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... it's got too many T- It, it sounds posh.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs]
8. WHWilliam Hanson
  It's an old French word, and it's why it appears nowhere on my, on the, on the book. The book's called Just Good Manners-
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Manners, yeah
10. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... not Just Good Etiquette.
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
12. WHWilliam Hanson
  Um, because people just have so many opinions on it. I'm very much, when, when the publisher said, "No, let's not put etiquette on the book," I, I was almost slightly offended.
13. SSSimon Sinek
  How rude. Yeah.
14. WHWilliam Hanson
  Yes. And I was like, "It's etiquette. Everyone knows what etiquette is. Just lean into it."
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
16. WHWilliam Hanson
  Like, I'm fine with it. I don't have a hang-up with it. But I d- I do understand that manners are a softer-
17. SSSimon Sinek
  No, they were right
18. WHWilliam Hanson
  ... they are right. I have, I have told them that. But, uh, manners are a softer, more accessible word.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  William, thank you so much.
20. WHWilliam Hanson
  It's been lovely.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  This is lovely.
22. WHWilliam Hanson
  Thank you, Simon.
23. SSSimon Sinek
  Uh, yeah.
24. WHWilliam Hanson
  Even if you do hold your knife and fork slightly weirdly.
25. SSSimon Sinek
  William, thanks for coming on.
26. WHWilliam Hanson
  Thank you, Simon.
27. SSSimon Sinek
  Such a joy. A Bit of Optimism is brought to you by The Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbinus, David Ja, and Devon Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to simonsinek.com. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.

Episode duration: 54:57

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Why conversation etiquette fails: competing instead of listening

What etiquette is really for: making others feel they matter

How William became an etiquette coach (and avoided rugby)

Who hires etiquette training—and the CFO story

Myths, symbols, and the “posh” misconceptions (including the little finger)

Please, thank you, and the debate: are we getting ruder or just older?

Etiquette evolves: cuisine, introductions, gender, and rank

Names, introductions, and why etiquette saves (or sinks) deals

COVID changed greetings—and the problem with ‘I’m a hugger’

The “breathing bird” principle: tiny cues that elevate professional presence

Sponsor interlude: True Classic and “surprise and delight” customer care

Public noise, phone etiquette, and how to correct strangers politely

Dining rules, peas, and the real logic behind table manners

Disagreement, insecurity, and etiquette as a ‘driving skill’ you practice

Why ‘manners’ is the better word—and closing reflections

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