Simon SinekThe Confidence Conversation We Need to Have with Scott Galloway | A Bit of Optimism
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 10,725 words- 0:00 – 1:53
Laughing out loud as masculinity, vulnerability, and confidence
- SGScott Galloway
I had some [censored] up sense of masculinity when I was young where I never showed my emotions, didn't cry between the ages of 29 and 44, didn't laugh out loud. Now I purposely try to train myself into laughing out loud because 50% of having a good sense of humor is appreciating other people's cleverness.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think learning to laugh, that's an expression of something you're feeling on the inside, I would argue is vulnerability.
- SGScott Galloway
I think when you're a younger man, sometimes you have this belief that recognizing someone else is funny, acknowledging someone else's success somehow takes away from your success.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
That it's a zero-sum game, and what you realize as you get older is the guy who says to another guy, "Wow, you're so impressive," or laughs at his joke and says, "Wow, that was really funny," that's confidence.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes, you're describing confidence. It's 100%. That's all it is. Most of us have at least one friend who's got a total opposite personality to us. On paper, it shouldn't work, but for some reason it just does. That's me and Scott Galloway.
- SGScott Galloway
Let's cause some trouble.
- SSSimon Sinek
If you don't know Scott, he's a force of nature, a professor, entrepreneur, podcaster, bestselling author who's built a reputation as a provocative social commentator, unafraid of triggering his audience, or me, or anyone listening to this podcast.
- SGScott Galloway
And I'll get [censored] for this.
- SSSimon Sinek
Recently, the masculinity crisis has been one of Scott's main focuses, which inspired his new book, Notes on Being a Man. This also served as the starting point for our debate. I, I mean conversation. Yes, we have very different ideas about healthy masculinity, but we agree on one thing: confidence is the thing, and the question is, how do we help people build their confidence? Real men can listen, grow, disagree with respect,
- 1:53 – 4:03
Scott’s evolution: fearlessness, mortality, and reverse-engineering success
- SSSimon Sinek
and still find common ground, just like me and my masculine friend, Scott. This is A Bit of Optimism. You were a business guy.
- SGScott Galloway
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Then, then you were a teacher.
- SGScott Galloway
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
And now you've sort of taken on a larger-than-life presence as a podcaster, but n- also some social commentator. What's happening in your head? Are you growing up? Are you maturing? What philosophies have you completely abandoned? Is it age? Is it wisdom? Like, what's the thing that took you from there to here?
- SGScott Galloway
It's a generous question. I, I think a couple things are driving me. Uh, one, I'm an atheist, and I think that really soon nobody we know or love is gonna remember us or be remembered, and so why wouldn't you try and live your life to the fullest and speak your mind and say things you're thinking but you're worried about being shamed, but you think that they're right? So I'm trying to live my life fearlessly. I always say that my goal is to live my life like I'm dancing with no one watching.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
I think it's important to reverse engineer your success to things that weren't your fault. Like, I'm not a humble person. We've talked about this. I think I'm a fucking monster. I think I'm in the top 1% of grit and hardworking and creative. But that puts you in a room the size of Germany. That puts you in a room of 75 million people. When I look back on the things that have resulted in a lifestyle my parents couldn't have dreamt of in terms of economics or influence or interesting friends and peers, it's, one, the irrational passion for my wellbeing and my mother. So I try to think about mentoring young men and finding programs that support and show young people value. Two, the University of California. I got Pell Grants. I got to go to UCLA when the admissions rate was 76%. This year it'll be 9%. I got to go to graduate school at Berkeley with a 2.27 GPA from UCLA for basically no money, so I'm very involved. I spent a lot of money, for me at least, on, uh, access or broadening access to state-supported education.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- 4:03 – 6:27
The power of risking public failure (career, friendship, dating)
- SGScott Galloway
People say, "What's the secret of your success?" For me, it's pretty straightforward, and that is I have been less afraid of public failure than most people. When you put out a podcast and you start a business, you're risking public failure.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
When you express, "I wanna be better friends with Simon Sinek," that's a certain amount of public failure and exposure.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
When you approach a strange woman and express romantic interest, you're setting yourself up for public failure. Most of my businesses have failed, but what I've been good at is, is risking public failure, and I wanna do more of that because if you think about the real obstacle between most people in a democratic society with the prosperity Americans enjoy and success or a better life, it's their fear of public failure.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
And what I've learned is the fear of public failure is a curb that is two inches high and really doesn't fucking matter. If you start a business and it doesn't work, people go, "Oh, it didn't work," and then they go back to thinking about themselves. If you approach a woman and express interest and she's not interested in you and you're respectful, you're both gonna be just fine.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
So I'm trying to be fearless, and I'm trying to also think about how I help or contribute to the things that gave me an irrational amount of success.
- SSSimon Sinek
I have a friend, she's a, a female entrepreneur, who believes, and there's a caveat at the end, but she believes that men make better entrepreneurs than women. And she came to this belief because she said when we're young, traditional roles still apply where men have to be the social initiators for the most part. So, you know, the boy has to ask the girl to the prom. Those conventions still exist, and so men from an early age, boys from an early age, have to build up the courage to ask, get shot down, ask again, get shot down, ask, get shot down. And so when they grow up and they join the business world, they become more comfortable trying, get shot down, sales pitch, get shot down. And her, her attitude is that, that, that muscle, that grit, that fearlessness is, is cultivated young.And the caveat now is now in a world where everybody seems to have re- retracted from taking social risk, or too many people have, and you can sit in your room and swipe right.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And you never feel rejected. You can just assume they didn't see your picture or whatever it is, that that muscle isn't building for anybody.
- 6:27 – 10:37
Sex differences, risk-taking, and why the conversation gets polarized
- SGScott Galloway
There's a lot there. So I'm glad that she said that because if I say, and I've said both of these things, women are more observant, they get more reward from relationships, they have better IQ because they've been charged with being more thoughtful. Humans and elephants I think are the only two mammals where the female lives beyond menopause, because our species has recognized that female concern and observance and wisdom is so really important to the progress of the species. So if I say women are, their prefrontal cortex matures earlier, they're more observant, they have better bedside manner, one of the results is more women in medical school, and in general, women will make better doctors. Everyone politely applauds and nods their head. I think women make, generally speaking, better managers. I think they observe stuff-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- SGScott Galloway
... and their better IQ and can kinda zero in on stuff, more focused on getting shit done as opposed to putting up with office politics, 'cause a lot of times they had to get home and take care of their kids. People lightly applaud. Men, on average, make better entrepreneurs. They're more aggressive. They're more risk aggressive. Throughout history they've been taught, "Oh, no, pick up a sword and go battle that enemy and risk your own life. Oh, no, you see something moving in the bushes? Pick up a spear and run after the thing and risk your own life. If there's a fire and you have to rush in and grab people, don't be thoughtful about it. Rush in and grab people." The male brain is more risk aggressive. Now, some people see that as toxic. It can also result in valor, and some of that aggression and risk-taking is one of the reasons we put a man on the moon and have vaccines. But if you say that, it's, "Oh, I don't feel safe around him." So you're allowed to acknowledge a different in the sexes as long as it positions women as saints and men as predators. So i- we can't even have an adult conversa- And by the way, the key land acknowledgement here is that doesn't mean we shouldn't be encouraging more men to go into nursing.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
That doesn't mean that women shouldn't have the same access to venture capital as, as men. Because there are fantastic masculine attributes that come up in a lot of women, and there's a lot of feminine attributes that come up in men. I'm more drawn to feminine men as my close friends. I think the majority of my friends are gay. And people say, "Well, you're associating gay people with feminism," and I get into another culture war. I am drawn to feminine attributes in my friends. I like to be taken care of, and there's nothing wrong with that. And a lot of men represent wonderful femininity. Most of the 95% of us who are born binary have an easier time leaning into certain attributes than others, and we should celebrate that. And I think we celebrate, finally, many of the wonderful things about femininity in the workplace. There's no reason why we can't celebrate masculinity while recognizing equality of opportunity might not necessarily fit to equality of outcome.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
I think if you gave women the exact same opportunities to be CEOs, there'd be more than 17%, which there is now, but I don't ever think it's gonna be 50/50. The key is are they provided with the same opportunities, and right now they're not.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think you're 100% right. The, the... I, I, I spoke at a, at a w- women's entrepreneur conference, and this is what I said, obviously for shock value. "We don't need more women CEOs." And then I went on and explained. I said, "Traditional male characteristics are things like aggression and decisiveness. Traditional female characteristics are things like patience, thoughtfulness, caring, maternal instinct." I said, "It's not that we need more female CEOs, it's that we need more CEOs who act like females, and women just happen to be better at that." And this whole idea of bringing sort of more balance, 'cause I think that if you look at our business world, that we've over-indexed on aggression and decisiveness, and we've underappreciated things like caring, patience, listening. And if you look at the great cultures where people love coming to work, and the, the stuff that, you know, that I've sort of b- built my career on, you find a lot more of those female attributes in the male or female leaders. And I think
- 10:37 – 12:17
Marine Corps case study: why mixed traits and diverse teams win
- SSSimon Sinek
this is the point you're trying to make, which is we have to appreciate there are, that there are differences, and that one, quote-unquote, "is not better than the other," but you want to align those attributes for the task at hand, and ultimately you need both. You ultimately need both. And you might appreciate this. I visited the officer candidate school for the Marine Corps at Quantico, Virginia.
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And when they run the training for the officers, they separate the men and the women. And they've learned a few things when they've done this. So they have something called the LRC, which is the Leadership Reaction Course. It's a timed problem-solving course, basically, where you have to get, like, all your Marines and material across the, the, the water hazard in, you know, a set amount of time, whatever. And they've noticed stark differences between the all-male teams and the all-female teams. The all-male teams generally fail because they don't think enough about how to solve the problem. Their bias is for action and execution, and they usually pick the wrong solution. The women spend all the time discussing the right solution. They often come to the right solution, but they don't leave enough time to execute. Um, so this idea that you talk about, which is that sort of aggression and go and decisiveness, the Marine Corps sees that, and they also see the thoughtfulness and the higher order thinking from the women. And so the question is, how do you get both?
- SGScott Galloway
Well, diverse teams. Yeah, diverse teams make better teams.
- SSSimon Sinek
Diverse teams make better, yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
I mean, in general, men make better combat soldiers. You're not supposed to say that. Men are physically stronger. They're more prone to rush out in the line of fire and try and save a comrade.Women are more, "Let's not be stupid. We need to think this through." You need a little bit of that both. And what-
- 12:17 – 17:11
Dating fears, “toxic” framing, and the data vs. lived experience gap
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... unfortunately, what I believe is that that aggressiveness or risk-taking of men has been pathologized as toxic while not appreciating that whatever it was, the 223 firemen that were killed in 9/11 who rushed into the building without thinking, they were all men. And so I don't think there's any reason why we can't celebrate masculine attributes. My book has gotten a lot of pushback online from a lot of, I don't even call them feminists, I call them ring light therapists. There's this whole thing on TikTok, I don't know if you've seen this. Why would you ever risk going on a date when you can be unalived with a man? And they've couched it as if men, basically, that women who go on dates with other young men are literally taking their life into their hands. And here's the data, the actual numbers. 2,500 women a year are murdered by men. That is way too many. It's still a problem. Sexual assault is actually a bigger problem. Let's just s- stick to murder or unaliving. 70% of those are people they know, right? People they're in a relationship with. So there's actually few, very few random male-on-female murders. So let's call it 2,500. 10,000 men kill another man. 40,000 men kill themselves. So if you go on a date with a man, just be clear, he's 16 times more likely to go home after the date and hurt himself than hurt you. You are four times more likely to die on the car ride to the date. You are four times more likely to choke and die during dinner. So let's stop pathologizing young men as these violent predators looking to hurt women. They have become increasingly violent, but they become increasingly violent towards themselves. So I find that we're quick to pathologize masculine attributes without recognizing that some of these masculine attributes have literally built the world. Does that mean we're done? Does that mean it's not a new time, and that we shouldn't train our young men to be more protective of their mothers and their sisters, and to celebrate their success and realize their ascent has not come at our cost? Yeah, there needs to be an updated frame of masculinity.
- SSSimon Sinek
But the statistics don't eliminate somebody's fear, right? I mean, Tucker Max used to talk about this, if you remember Tucker Max. [chuckles] You know, he said if you wanna un-
- SGScott Galloway
I hope they serve beers in hell, that kind of thing.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, exactly. That Tucker Max, yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
[laughs] That's a cultural reference.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. So-
- SGScott Galloway
Let's go listen to some Sisqó. You got an English beat we can get down? Anyway, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
- SSSimon Sinek
He said, [laughs] if you understand the dynamics in male and female dating, you have to appreciate that men fear being humiliated and women fear being raped or murdered. If a girl goes home with a guy on a first or second date, almost every girl will text their friend and say, "This is the name of the guy. This is the address I'm going to in case anything happens." I don't think a guy has ever texted a, a friend and said, "Here's the address in case something happens to me," right? And so there are fears on both sides. As I said, men fear being humiliated and women fear being raped or murdered. And so simply, i- us giving the statistic of the fear is not what allays the fear. The question is, is why do those fears exist, and then what do we have to do culturally, societally for those fears to, to, to, to diminish? And this goes back to the '80s, you know, where we've sort of over-indexed on rugged individualism. We've over-indexed on sort of, sort of, uh, aggressive masculinity as a, as an attribute in business. We've seen the results, more short-termism, less caring at work, where we use human beings to balance the books on an annualized basis, where we prioritize our, quote-unquote, you know, fiduciary duty, and when we think that the fiduciary duty to our shareholder means sacrificing employees or customers, failing to recognize that taking care of employees and customers is actually good for the shareholder, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and we find ourselves here today. And so I think the work that you talk about and the work that I do, which is sort of two sides of the same coin, even though I think we're coming at it from a different angle, which is one of the reasons I think we get along, which is we both favor and we're using tr- sort of, sort of traditional bi- binary gender terms, sort of, sort of more feminine men. The men that we prefer, they tend to be m- more adept at listening, have patience, have a l- a little more care in them. Maybe a little less of that outward aggression because they've got something to prove, maybe because they fear being humiliated, I don't know, or emasculated. I don't know what it is. And I think being okay with oneself is the thing that leads to being open to being softer. And you've studied this more than I have. What is the connection between insecurity and some of that aggression that does come out as excessive or toxic masculinity?
- 17:11 – 19:47
A code for young men: provider, protector, and empathy for vulnerability
- SGScott Galloway
A lot there. So I think every father has an obligation to teach his son about, not necessarily about masculinity, but give your son a code. And I believe that a decent code for young men is an aspirational code of masculinity. And I think every young man needs to think about being a provider. How am I eventually, if I want to have a family, gonna take an economic lead here? That's not to say I'm gonna get in the way of my wife's economic progress. Sometimes that is being a man, saying, "All right, I'm gonna be supportive of my partner who's better at this whole money thing." But I think it's a decent, healthy position to start from that I need to have a plan, gain skills, certifications such that I can be economically viable. Young men are still disproportionately evaluated based on their economic viability. Is that fair or not? I don't know. It just is.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- SGScott Galloway
But the second leg of the stool is protection, and to recognize that if you've never been a victim, it's hard to empathize with victims. I've almost never in my life felt unsafe.I'm 6'2", 190. I w- I remember walking down the street with my sister during COVID, a homeless guy kind of stirred, and she jumped out of her skin, and I said, "That was a bit of an overreaction." And she said, "Easy for you to say." And it's like Dave Chappelle said when he got paid in cash, $30,000, and it was in his backpack, and he said for the first time he felt like what it's like to be a woman, that everyone is ready to attack you. And I recognize now, and I think part of the problem with big tech, is it's led by people who've never really understood poverty. They've never really understood what it's like to be, uh, on the wrong end of racism or homophobia or are the dangers that women face every day. I hadn't thought about Waymo's taking off. I'm fascinated by autonomous. And one of the groups fueling Waymo is women.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- SGScott Galloway
Because they don't feel safe with the driver.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- SGScott Galloway
And someone did a study. Like, Uber drivers never talk to me. The majority of Uber drivers try to strike up a conversation with the woman in the backseat.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- SGScott Galloway
Because I never experienced that, I don't think it exists. So it's important that young bo- but boys... W- women should cross the street when they see men on that side of the street, not cross to the other side. Men have to, and especially boys, have to recognize that masculinity is breaking up fights at bars, not starting them, that you always err on the side of protection with people who are more vulnerable or smaller than you, and women are physically smaller than men. What was the second part?
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, the, the softness?
- SGScott Galloway
So let me be clear. Let me... I just want to trigger some of your, your listeners.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- 19:47 – 28:04
“Sensitive man” debate and what actually works on dates
- SGScott Galloway
This notion of the sensitive man, I think it's total bullshit. I don't think that's what women want. I think two sensitive people in the car leaves the parallel parking spot empty and two people in the car crying. I think there's a ton of evidence showing that women want a man who notices their life, who, who finds stages for, to applaud on them, who registers w- what, what's important to them becomes important to them. But I don't think women are looking for a sensitive man, and the majority of the information shows that women, while claiming they want a sensitive man, want a dude with a beard who's strong and is a little bit rough around the edges. Their sensitive man is called their gay best friend. The jerk and the aggressive guy is who they wanna fuck.
- SSSimon Sinek
W- w- we're speaking in extremes here. You're creating this caricature of the sensitive man. What we're saying is somebody who's more sensitive. Yes, I understand that-
- SGScott Galloway
Notices their life
- SSSimon Sinek
... I understand that you can-
- SGScott Galloway
Listens
- SSSimon Sinek
... men who are bald and have beards are-
- SGScott Galloway
The ultimate-
- SSSimon Sinek
... are strangely more attractive to women. You being bald with a beard, me being haired with no beard. Being more sensitive has nothing to do with-
- SGScott Galloway
The biggest aph- I coach young men on dating
- SSSimon Sinek
... has nothing to do with m- is seeing a woman or, or, or acknowledging her and all those things which you said are 100% true. That has nothing to do with being a sensitive man or a not sensitive man.
- SGScott Galloway
I, I, I think we're arguing semantics here. I tell, and we're gonna agree on this. I tell men-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- SGScott Galloway
... young men, the ultimate aphrodisiac on a date is not money, it's not big muscles, it's follow-up questions.
- SSSimon Sinek
True.
- SGScott Galloway
Listen and ask-
- SSSimon Sinek
True
- SGScott Galloway
... follow-up questions.
- SSSimon Sinek
True.
- SGScott Galloway
I think there's some common ground here, but I think there's a cognitive dissonance, what we call in marketing, where people say, "Oh, I would pay $300 for that," and then they wouldn't pay $30 for it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Of course. Of course.
- SGScott Galloway
What women say they want in a man oftentimes to foot to who they decide to partner with and who they're drawn to sexually. And I'm not suggesting that men need to man up or demonstrate talk. There needs to be a reframing of what it means to be masculine. But one, figure out a way to be economically viable. Two, figure out a way to be strong physically. Three, you initiate contact. Y- they just did this big survey on dating. They asked women, "What bothers you most about being at a bar or in a single setting?" The number two thing was that, "Creeps approach me." Right? The number five biggest complaint, "Nobody approaches me." You have to teach your boys how to make what I call the open.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
I used to do this with my boys. I wouldn't allow them back in the house unless they talked to a stranger.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
You have to be able to go up to a strange dude at your boarding school and say, "Hey, do you wanna grab the game this weekend?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
And be willing to get to know.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
You might get rejected. You have to be willing to go up to, I don't wanna even say, a coworker. Everyone gets their hair on fire. One in three relationships begin at work. And if you don't know the difference between expressing interest and harassing someone, you have much bigger problems. And I think above a certain senior level, your fly's up and locked and you take that shit off campus. I deal with a lot of that shit on boards.
- SSSimon Sinek
Agreed.
- 28:04 – 30:31
Modern dating distortions: social media envy and app-driven market consolidation
- SGScott Galloway
I want to acknowledge that a guy my age doesn't even know what he doesn't know with respect to younger people. What I look at is the data.
- SSSimon Sinek
As a wise executive once told me, you know, data, data is like a bikini. It hides all the best bits.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, okay, as Jim Barksdale, the CEO of AT&T and Netscape said, "If we're gonna go with opinions, let's go with mine. If we have data, let's look at the data." That's where I try to find my objective truth-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... through some surveys and data. And what I find with respect to money and women being disproportionately evaluated unfairly on their aesthetics and men being disproportionately evaluated on their economic viability, I find it's actually gotten worse. That back when I was dating, most men did okay. If you went to UCLA, you had an okay job. I made a little bit more money than my friends 'cause I was in investment banking, but we all did okay. Now, with Instagram, people feel like unless they're dating a dude that can take them to the Amangani or take them and have the best seats in Ibiza, that he's not doing well, and if I'm not a fucking supermodel with ridiculous, a good job... I mean, women are basically told to be Wonder Woman now, and men are told that if they don't make millions of dollars in crypto by the time they're 30, they're losers. And I find that it's gotten worse in terms of men getting their self-esteem from an unrealistic vision of their economic success and a woman being evaluated based on an unrealistic vision of her aesthetics with all those filters. You know, w- w- what we have is your happiness is a function of your prosperity minus your envy, and all we have all day are algorithms meant to ramp up our envy and create unreasonable expectations around ourself and what we should expect in a partner. And then when you go to the digitization of the mating market, which consolidates it, when Amazon came along, 50% of retail went to e-commerce. When Google came along, 93% of search or information inquiry went to one. Now that we've digitized dating and the majority of relationships begin, or that's the number one source of connection is online dating, there's been a consolidation of metrics. And around men, it's essentially your ability to signal economic security and your height. And if you see these surveys with women that say, "What are the bare minimum?" Six foot, six figures. That's become a new thing. Six foot, six figures. That doesn't seem unreasonable. If you take out men over 50, men who are obese, men who are married, that's 4% of the population. And then at the same time, the men who are in the top
- 30:31 – 35:00
Fixes beyond self-help: national service, third places, and economic scaffolding
- SGScott Galloway
10% of datingUh, get about somewhere between 60 and 80% of the interest, which means 80% of the men fighting over a small number of women, which kind of, quite frankly, confirms their worst fears, validates their insecurities. So online dating has kind of been a disaster for young people, and this all leads to the same place, and where my solutions are the following: I think we need mandatory national service where young people can meet people from different ethnic, income, religious backgrounds, and realize how wonderful other young Americans are. I just spent time with a IDF battalion, a bunch of young, beautiful men and women handling heavy equipment, depending upon each other. That's where they meet friends, mentors, and mates. Singapore, the most religiously diverse nation in the world, the leader there said, "We risk ethnic violence, so we need to create one flag that they all pray to, and that's the national flag." And so everybody in Singapore does national service. I think we need to put more money in young people's pockets. I think we need massive housing programs. I think we need $25 an hour minimum wage, and also we need tax credits for third places. Where do young people meet and fall in love?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Generally speaking, young men aren't six feet and making a shit ton of money. But over time, the way women decide to mate or pair with these individuals is, "He was really nice to his parents at church, and I fell in love with him."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
"He was great at work," and, "He was so funny. He has the coolest friends." Women fall in love slowly, but where are the venues for men to demonstrate excellence now? They're not going to work. Fewer are going to school, and you have attendance at religious institutions is at all, all-time low. Men are spending less time outdoors, men under the age of 30, than prison inmates. So where are the venues for men to demonstrate excellence to women who have a naturally much finer filter-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... for mating selection? And the result is loneliness, a sex recession, people not connecting. And when people don't connect, they're much more likely to think ill of each other.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
They're much more likely, especially men, to start blaming other people for their problems. So I see loneliness, and I see a rise of nationalism. I see economic harm around a lack of connection because we don't have third places for people to meet.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, a lot of the things that you talked about are social media driven, you know, the expectations of how tall I have to be, how beautiful I have to be, how rich I have to be, et cetera, and the, and the increasing of insecurity and, and envy. And we're starting to see amongst young people a rebellion. We're starting to see people choosing to go offline. I think we're starting to see, and hopefully more of it, a rejection of online dating as the primary means of finding a partner. You know, if it's, if it's in, in the mix, fine. And, uh, I completely agree with you in terms of mandatory service. Um, one of the things that I've been learning as I've been learning about sort of friendship and everything, which is when there's more of a shared experience, people bond a lot quicker. So for example, if you join a tennis club so you'll meet people, it actually doesn't work very well because some people are great tennis players, some people are first-time tennis players, and the great ones will hang out with the great ones, and the first time, like, will feel insecure that they don't belong. But if you have a group where that's like new moms, right? So everybody there, regardless of their social class or whatever it is, their income, they're all new moms and all struggling with the same thing. And this idea of, "I understand you and you understand me," actually inc- increases the, the chance of bonding. And the idea of, of mandatory service, whether it's Teach For America or the military or something else, everybody's thrown in together. And you're right. There's lots of places in the world that have mandatory conscription. It's a, it's the great level playing field. It's the great leveler because we're all coming in to do the same thing. We're all starting from the bottom. Alcoholics Anonymous is kind of like that, too. Like, you know, when you go to an AA meeting, it's kind of in- incredible, which is there's rich, there's poor, there's every color, there's every religion, but the bond is so intense because the, it's a unified single experience. And, and I... And if, if confidence is the thing we're grappling with, that confidence, uh, allows me to be more relaxed. If confidence allows me to get rid of toxic masculinity, if confidence allows me to be or- more open to somebody else, if confidence allows me to be more expressive, to show my love for my parents at church and not be all, like, h- trying to hide it because I'm trying to be all tough, for example. I think it goes back to a lot of the stuff you're talking about, which is how do we help people, young people, build confidence?
- 35:00 – 39:25
Building real confidence in kids: affection, guardrails, sports—and surviving social media
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah. Look, nothing is more attractive and more important than confidence. And, you know, there's been a lot of studies done on it, whether it's sports, you know, finding places that you can succeed, the irrational passion for your well-being or just straight line affection. When I reverse engineer all of my blessings, it comes down to a small number of things that aren't my fault. The irrational passion of my well-being and my mother can be, you know, told me in implicit and explicit, small and big ways every day that I add value. Big government, you know, Pell Grants, free education, and then an economy that gave unremarkable people huge opportunities, whether it was massive investments in technology with DARPA, access to capital, competitive markets where no one big company could put you out of business overnight. Most of my companies were built by immigrants. I feel like everything that gave me what I have now is under attack right now.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
And also, I think there's just a ton of young men who have seen their economic and cultural standing, uh, really collapse, and I don't think that's gonna be helpful.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
I don't think the country nor women are gonna continue to flourish if men are flailing. But how do you give your kids confidence? That's a tough one, right? That's a bigger one. The advice I just have or I try and practice, you know, it's just little things, right? It's affection. It's expressing how much you care about them. It's setting guardrails. It's having tough conversations. I love what First La- Lady Obama said. Basically what she said is, "We decided to be assholes so they wouldn't be assholes." Yeah, I have really difficult conversations with my kids every day where it would just be so much easier to let them stay up till 2:00 AM and watch the Super Bowl.And I'm like, "No. Y- you're not. You gotta go to sleep right now. And by the way, I'm disappointed you got a B on that science test. I know you can do better. I know y- we're supposed to be, everyone's a win-" No. Uh, like, uh, uh, we have very hard conversations, but every day, first and last thing I say to them is I love them.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
They know I just, I'm crazy about them and I think they have huge value, and I think over time that soaks into them. I also try and get them playing competitive sports. I'm trying to get my kids to work out like my dad did. Trying to get them to be outdoors. I think being around people, others, creates moments of a lack of self-esteem, but over time increases your self-esteem.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
But I think the greatest self-esteem destroyer in history has been when social went on mobile. I think it's created so much envy, so many unrealistic expectations. The high school cafeteria is following you around 24 by 7 in a mean way, where the algorithms encourage young girls to sexualize themselves or encourage people to start fights where there don't need to be any, or to find the weakest person in the thread and go after them. I can tell when my kid is really upset. I'll say to his mom, like, "Something happened on social media."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
"It's not gonna tell us about it, but something happened." And people will say, "Well, you're the parent. Just block social media." That means you don't have kids.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
There's studies showing if a kid doesn't have social media, he's even more depressed 'cause he's ostracized from the community. There's no way to communicate. That's a longer question, Simon, and unfortunately-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... every parenting book I read contradicts the last one I read.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
But I know in terms of confidence, there's a few things you can do.
- SSSimon Sinek
I wonder if we're confusing some of the things. Like, when you talk about sort of money and strength and muscles and being a provider and being a protector, though those things are true, I wonder if what it is is what we are truly attracted to in each other is confidence. Whether it's projecting how confident we are in how we look and how we feel and how we dress, that's all projection of confidence, right? Or how much money we make or how strong we are. That's all projection of confidence. And if we overcompensate, like we come on too strong and we s- talk about the money too much, though in the short term it may project confidence, but once we get to know each other, it all collapses. I wonder if that talking too much about money, muscles, and all of that kind of stuff is the false projection of confidence, where what we really should be talking about is actual self-confidence, which when you have it, even if you're not a, a, a 10 and you belong in a magazine, you are... You like who you are, and you know you have other attributes, and that, that comes across, and people are far more attracted to the confident person who may be a, a five or a six than the horrible person who's a 10 in looks. At least, at least when you get past the first date. So, you know-
- 39:25 – 44:09
What women find attractive (research): resources, intellect (humor), and kindness
- SGScott Galloway
But there, but there's research here. So the reason why women are drawn-
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, but that doesn't mean the research is leading us to the right conclusions.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, right, but it, it's the closest thing I can find to an objective truth versus finding your favorite Ringlight therapist or gender study. I, I look at the data, and I look at peer-reviewed research, and the research around why women find muscles attractive is generally the following. It's not the, the aesthetic draw of the muscles themselves, it's what it says about the man. It says that he has some discipline. It says he can commit to something. It says he shows up, that he's dependable. You're in good shape, Simon. What does that mean? It means you have your shit together. It means that even if you have a few too many drinks one night or you're not feeling great or you have a lot on your plate, you manage to get to the gym. That says something about your ability to be a good partner, a good provider, a good mate. There's been a lot of studies on what attributes are the sexual currency for men in the eyes of women, and they almost all distill down to kind of three basic truths. The number one signal, we don't like to talk about this, is the man's ability to signal resources. That's the bad news. The good news is the word signal, and that is if you're a guy who's getting your graduate degree and you're the one that doesn't order a bottle of Grey Goose at 2:00 in the morning, you go home. You're thoughtful. You're considerate. You study hard. You have your shit together. You are signaling resources in the future. And by the way, the best relationships in my view are the relationships where you meet someone and you build something together, 'cause-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... there's just a feeling of shared accomplishment that is so, that just binds you for the rest of your life, I find.
- SSSimon Sinek
By the way, if you talk to a lot of women, what you'll also find is they actually prefer men with slightly imperfect bodies. Like a little bit of pudge. You know, a good body, but not a perfect body because when they see online in a dating app some guy with a perfectly chiseled, you know, abs and th- what that also signals is they, they care about themselves more than they care about anybody else, that they're very self-involved. So there is a line.
- SGScott Galloway
Probably.
- SSSimon Sinek
There is a line.
- SGScott Galloway
Wait a minute. The number two thing, all right? Intellect. This is, this is anthropological.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
People who make good decisions for the tribe. If you make really good decisions under pressure, your partner and your kids are more likely to survive.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Women find intellect... And it can be storytelling. The reason why Mick Jagger gets to procreate with a 34-year-old ballerina is he's a great storyteller. Music is storytelling. We respect intellect. We respect creativity. People are really drawn to it. Quick quiz. What is the fastest way to communicate intellect, Simon?
- SSSimon Sinek
Is it through a story, Scott?
- SGScott Galloway
Humor.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh.
- SGScott Galloway
I- if you can make a woman laugh, she'll have coffee with you.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's true.
- SGScott Galloway
It was the only way I ever got dates when I was in high school and college, was I made women laugh. Humor is an aphrodisiac for women. And then the number three, and this is the most under-leveraged, unknown currency of sexual attractiveness for men, and it's their secret weapon, kindness. Th- this wh- notion of the bad boy effect, that might be a turn-on in the short run. Women want to partner with men they perceive as kind. And-
- SSSimon Sinek
So all of these things that you're talking about, sort of humor and kindness, these aren't the masculine traits that you started talking about. These are more softer traitsThese are, these are softer skills
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah. I think of kindness as, at the end of the day, planting trees the shade of which you'll never sit under. And it's like, what's the difference between being kind and nice? You might be sitting across the table from someone and being really nice to them and telling them how good-looking they are and da, da, da. All right, she senses that maybe this guy just wants to have sex with me and is, you know, boosting me. Are you nice to service staff? Do you go out of your way to be kind?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Are you patient when the Uber driver takes the wrong turn to the airport?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Do you purposely go out of your way to just do things for people who will never be able to do anything for you back? People smell that. And by the way, I have trouble with that. I wasn't born a kind person. I started a kindness practice on purpose when I was about 44, and I said, "Every day I'm gonna start..." And it's something you can teach yourself. It starts becoming reflex memory.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
But men don't realize if you aren't instinctively a kind person, you need to start a kindness prac- Women notice when you're nice to your mom. Women notice when you hold doors open for other people. I, and you're, it's not performative. It's not about the evolved man. It's not about the guy who has more subscriptions to The Atlantic or is in touch with himself. It's signaling resources, it's intellect, and it's kindness.
- SSSimon Sinek
And to your point, you know, anybody can learn to be kind. It's a practice. Anybody can learn-
- SGScott Galloway
You can't learn to be funny
- SSSimon Sinek
What's that?
- 44:09 – 49:47
Humor, vulnerability, and generous leadership as confidence in action
- SGScott Galloway
You can have a great sense of humor even if you aren't intuitively funny. And how do you do that? You laugh a lot. Someone says something really funny or sort of funny, you laugh out loud. People love to be around people who laugh a lot, right? You know that guy who has that crazy, or that woman who has that crazy infectious laughter? People love to be around that person. That person's a good time. When someone says something funny, it's like leaning into your emotions. I didn't do this. I had some fucked up sense of masculinity when I was younger where I never showed my emotions. Didn't cry between the ages of 29 and 44. Didn't laugh out loud. Now, when something moves me, I try to lean in. I try to get emotional. If it makes me feel emotional, I don't hold back. And when someone says something funny, I purposely try to train myself into laughing out loud. Because 50% of having a good sense of humor is appreciating other people's cleverness.
- SSSimon Sinek
I, I... Okay. So you and I are very different personalities. I would dare say opposite. And we get along and we like each other because of shared values and shared commitments and those kinds of things.
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I would argue that you learning to express yourself, and I, and I'm gonna take crying off the table.
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm gonna... That'll be a gimme, right?
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm gonna take crying off the table. But you learning to laugh, I would argue, is you learning to be more sensitive. It's you learning to be vulnerable.
- SGScott Galloway
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think learning to laugh and learning, because, which is an emotion, that's an expression of something you're feeling on the inside, I would argue is vulnerability.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, I hadn't thought of it that way. I think it's more when you're a younger man, sometimes you have this belief that recognizing someone else is funny, acknowledging someone else's success, acknowledging someone else's personal style, acknowledging another man's good looks somehow takes away from your success.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
That it's a zero-sum game. That-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... accomplishment and attractiveness and success are a zero-sum game. And what you realize as you get older is the guy who says to another guy, "Wow, you're so impressive," or like, "I love that jacket," or, "Dude, you're so fucking ripped. Good for you, man," or laughs at his joke and says, "Wow, that was really funny," that's confidence.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes. You're describing confidence. It's 100%. That's all it is. So Steven Spielberg said that h- there are more people who win Oscars who thank him that he didn't help than the people who he actually helped, right?
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
So somebody who he helped, like give them a break, give them a leg up, make introduction, whatever it is, that they'll win an Oscar and they don't thank him from the stage. But people who he's never met will thank him because of his inspiration and whatever he provided. And the theory being that these people who have this amazing accomplishment, this Oscar, that if they thank Steven Spielberg for the break he gave them, that somehow it devalues-
- SGScott Galloway
Diminishes them, yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... their accomplishment. And to your point, this is a lack of self-confidence. It takes tremendous self-confidence to say, "Thank you," or, "I couldn't have done this alone." You and I both know this, which is the best leaders take accountability when things go wrong, and they distribute-
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, success. Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... when things go right. You know? That, that, uh, the, the best leaders that you and I both know, when something goes incredibly right, they take zero credit. They're like, "No, no, no. It was my team. It was my team. I have an amazing team." And when shit goes sideways, they're like, "On me, on me." And that is nothing more than an expression of confidence. Nothing.
- SGScott Galloway
Agreed.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so it goes right back to where we started, which is though I agree with you, and I can't argue the data, that conspicuous display of potential and ability to provide or good looks or good genetics, you know, symbol, you know, signals, you know, we're gonna have a strong, healthy kid, you know, all of that stuff, I can't argue with that. But i- i- though it can be argued that, you know, the generations change in how we relate and how we date and all of the, maybe the way that you and I dated when we were kids is very different now. I think the thing that underlies all of it that we have to focus on in ourselves and helping our friends and our kids build is confidence, and that's the thing that I'm m- m- more obsessive about, which is what are the mechanisms to help somebody build confidence over telling them the actions they need to perform or the superficial things they need to achieve in order to superficially communicate confidence. Build the real thing rather than just the communication of that thing.
- SGScott Galloway
Obviously it's a fine line, but the thing... L- look, I, you want your kids, especially if, if someone raising kids, you want them to have an innate sense of confidence and self-esteem and boundaries around how they're treated such that-I think more confident people will be more likely to be generous, loving people to other people. You definitely want that. I think right now, as big a threat, maybe a bigger threat is I find a lot of the people who control our economy, especially our tech platforms, credit their character and their grit for their success and blame the markets and other people for their failures.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, of course. Of course.
- SGScott Galloway
Their confidence has turned into arrogance and a lack-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep
- SGScott Galloway
... of appreciation for the struggles that other people face.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- 49:47 – 54:52
Purpose vs. happiness, men’s risk reallocation, and the social lubricant epilogue
- SGScott Galloway
Happiness is a sensation. I can get it from edibles and Netflix. I could be happy in an hour, no problem. Purpose is what you wanna pursue, and purpose, I have found, and it's not the right answer for everybody, but I have found purpose in developing the skills, the strength, and the wherewithal to establish a relationship with someone and raise who I think are gonna be patriotic, loving men. That is my purpose. So I can find happiness pretty easily, 'cause it's a, a sensation, but what I would suggest is try and find purpose. And all the economic aspirations and AI and GDP and salary and negotiating for a salary and all that, and stock options, it's all a means. The ends is such that you can have an absence of economic security, such you can have deep and meaningful relationships. And I didn't figure that out until I was older. But that's, that's where I find purpose. That's what I pursue.
- SSSimon Sinek
Amen. Over the past few years, your work has explored male loneliness. What do you think men, especially young men, need right now but don't have the language to ask for?
- SGScott Galloway
The term risk is important for young men, and that is m- men are taking way too much risk on gaming and gambling sites. They're taking too many risks with the strident, aggressive things they say online, and they're not taking enough risks offline. They're not applying for jobs they shouldn't get. They're not applying to college. They're not getting out of the house. They're not approaching other impressive people and expressing an interest in friendship. They're not approaching potential romantic partners and expressing interest. That risk has a greater return in certain venues than other. Taking huge risks on Coinbase or on Robinhood or on betting platforms are really bad risks, but you need to take more risks with people outside of the house. The only way you get to a great yes, the only way you get to a great job, a great school, a partner who's higher character and better looking than you, is by risking a ton of public failure and a ton of nos. Anyone who's gotten to great yeses has endured dozens, if not hundreds, of nos. You need to reallocate your risk.
- SSSimon Sinek
Amen. Social risk. Scott Galloway, you always make me think. You always challenge me. I always appreciate any time I get with you. Thank you very, very, very much.
- SGScott Galloway
Thanks, Simon. I love, love spending time with you. Whenever I wanna get together with Simon, he blows me off. It's like high school again, literally.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, hold on. First of all, the last time-
- SGScott Galloway
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
... you invited me out... Let's just back off there. First of all, you never text me ever and invite me out ever. I invite you, number one. Number two, the last time you took the initiative to invite me out, you said, "Do you wanna go out for a drink?" I said, "I'd love to." You go, "Great, I'll meet you in an hour." I'm like, "I can't meet you in an hour."
- SGScott Galloway
Dude, you sound like such an insecure chick right now. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
And then you're like, "Fuck you. You never invite me. You never go out with me." So, like, you know.
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, my God.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, I al- I always find you-
- SGScott Galloway
That's not true
- SSSimon Sinek
... but you kinda hold it against me-
- SGScott Galloway
That's not true
- SSSimon Sinek
... if I'm available in an hour.
- SGScott Galloway
I wanted to meet you, and instead I sent you s- uh, nude selfies. Everything is true except the last part there, folks.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] I saved them, by the way.
- SGScott Galloway
So let's cause some trouble. Let's find the dark side of Simon Sinek. I don't buy this whole groovy you and me thing. I'm like, I think there's a dark side to you.
- SSSimon Sinek
Of course there is.
- SGScott Galloway
I wanna explore that.
- SSSimon Sinek
I don't deny it.
- SGScott Galloway
All right. Let's find it.
- SSSimon Sinek
You, uh, that is-
- SGScott Galloway
Let's go there.
- SSSimon Sinek
You're the bitter, angry one. I'm not.
- SGScott Galloway
But I'm transparent about my bitterness and my anger. I can't figure out-
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm transparent about my bitterness and my anger. I just have less of it.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah. I don't, I don't see it. I don't, I don't think that's where you started from.
- SSSimon Sinek
You don't trust people who won't get drunk.
Episode duration: 54:53
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