The Culture That Converts Even the Biggest Cynics with former WD-40 CEO Garry Ridge

Garry Ridge 0:00 You know, I used to introduce myself, [laughs] "G'day, I'm Garry Ridge. I'm the consciously incompetent, probably wrong and roughly right, chairman and CEO of WD-40 Company, and I need all the help I can get."

Simon Sinek 0:13 Garry Ridge is the embodiment of what it means to be a great CEO. That he took the time to write down how he learned to lead, with such humility I might add, means that we all get to learn how to lead like him, and that can only be a good thing, said me on the back of Garry's new book, Any Dumb Ass Can Do It. And having him on this podcast was such a treat. I've known Garry for a bunch of years, and I have learned so much from him, and today was no exception. We talked about some of the specific things he did that took WD-40, yes, WD-40, from a successful company to a wildly successful company. And it's worth noting, it is a remarkable place to work. People love working there, and the results prove it. If you're a senior leader that wants to build a great corporate culture, this conversation is absolutely essential listening. And for everyone else who wants to work in a culture where we feel loved and seen and love coming to work, well, it's also essential, because we have to know what a great culture looks like if we're gonna demand that somebody build it for us. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] This episode is sponsored by Porsche and their new Macan, which is actually my car. I had it before they called. It's actually my car, and I love it. You know I quote you all the time, right?

Garry Ridge 1:47 I believe so.

Simon Sinek 1:48 [laughs]

Garry Ridge 1:49 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:50 There, there's a story you told me that I have told so many times of, uh, uh, of a time where you were on an analyst's call and the analyst said to you, "Garry, you missed your numbers." You know what, you know the story. And you said, "No, I didn't. I missed your numbers."

Garry Ridge 2:07 I missed your number.

Simon Sinek 2:08 You ran a public company for m- how many years?

Garry Ridge 2:10 25.

Simon Sinek 2:11 25 years you ran WD-40, and it, public company, but you ran it in the way public companies should be run, which is not beholden to the shareholders, but rather taking care of your employees and taking care of your customers. That was how you ran this company. And I love using WD-40 as an example because it's not glamorous. It's not tech. It's basically a one-product company. I know you have line extensions, but it's basically a one-product company. And I remember when I first visited your offices, if I dare say, it was a bit dumpy.

Garry Ridge 2:40 Yep.

Simon Sinek 2:40 And it defied all of the conventional wisdoms of what great culture is, which is flat screen TVs, free food, you know, all of this stuff. It was a dumpy office, and morale was high, and people loved each other, and it was home to them.

Garry Ridge 2:52 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 2:54 And this is one of the reasons I love you as a leader and one of the reasons I love WD-40 as an example, which is it defies all of the conventional wisdoms of what a lot of modern leaders think makes a great company, especially young leaders.

Garry Ridge 3:04 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 3:05 Where do you learn that?

Garry Ridge 3:07 Well, it went back to when I first met Ken Blanchard. You know, I became CEO in 1997, and the goal was to take the blue and yellow can with the little red top to the world, and I kind of knew with help of friends and people in the organization how to market the product.

Simon Sinek 3:25 Were you, were you an employee first or you came in as a C- as, to be CEO?

Garry Ridge 3:29 No, I'd been with the company 10 years before that.

Simon Sinek 3:31 Okay.

Garry Ridge 3:31 I started in Australia-

Simon Sinek 3:32 Okay

Garry Ridge 3:33 ... in 1987.

Simon Sinek 3:34 Got it.

Garry Ridge 3:35 They asked me to move to the US in 1994. In 1997, the CEO retired, and for my sins, I got to be CEO. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 3:43 [laughs]

Garry Ridge 3:44 I knew how to do that, but m- what was on my mind, Simon, was we were gonna have a company that the sun would never set on.

Simon Sinek 3:49 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 3:50 How were we going to create an environment where people knew and felt like they belonged, knew what they did mattered and made a difference, could make choices, and there was a low level of fear?

Simon Sinek 4:03 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 4:03 And I didn't know how to do it. And then I met one of our dear friends, Dr. Ken Blanchard.

Simon Sinek 4:08 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 4:08 I went back to school. I was already CEO.

Simon Sinek 4:10 Who, who wrote The One Minute Manager.

Garry Ridge 4:12 Who wrote-

Simon Sinek 4:12 And many other books

Garry Ridge 4:13 ... and many others.

Simon Sinek 4:13 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 4:14 And I went back to school, and he was one of my professors, and, uh, I learnt the-

Simon Sinek 4:19 When you say you went back to school figuratively.

Garry Ridge 4:20 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 4:21 Yeah, yeah.

Garry Ridge 4:21 I, I en- enrolled in a master's degree at USD.

Simon Sinek 4:24 Oh, oh, so you actually went back to school.

Garry Ridge 4:25 Yes.

Simon Sinek 4:26 Oh, okay.

Garry Ridge 4:26 Which was qui- quite funny because-

Simon Sinek 4:28 So literally

Garry Ridge 4:28 ... I was already two years as CEO of a US public company.

Simon Sinek 4:32 Right.

Garry Ridge 4:33 And I go into the classroom, and they say, "What the hell are you doing here? You're already CEO."

Simon Sinek 4:37 Right.

Garry Ridge 4:37 And I said, "I wanna confirm what I think I know and learn what I don't know, and there's a lot I don't know." And I got to l- get alongside Ken and learnt the, the, the essence of servant leadership, which are, you know, making people feel like they actually belong.

Simon Sinek 4:54 I don't think people appreciate that leadership is a learnable, teachable skill. You know? And some people learn it young. They have a coach, a parent, you know, something happens in their early career, early life that teaches them this. For the rest of us, like, y- you're gonna have to do the work. Otherwise, you're g- only gonna learn from the people you work for, and that's kind of a lottery. If you're really lucky and work for somebody amazing, you'll learn all the great lessons, but I think a lot of us learn a lot of bad lessons. I always tell people if you wanna become a leader, you have to study.

Garry Ridge 5:21 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 5:21 And you literally, as CEO, go back to school proving it's never too late.

Garry Ridge 5:26 It's never too late.

Simon Sinek 5:26 So what, so what were some of the things that you learned from Ken that... You're this relatively young CEO, not, you've been in the job for a couple years already.

Garry Ridge 5:37 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 5:37 What were some of the changes that you knew, you knew you had to make to the culture of WD-40 to build the company that you imagined?

Garry Ridge 5:43 Well, first I had to change myself.

Simon Sinek 5:45 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 5:45 And you know, the first part of that course I did was understanding who you are as a leader. And now that I'm refired, not retired-

Simon Sinek 5:52 [laughs]

Garry Ridge 5:52 ... I coach CEOs. And one of the things that I think is amazing is they don't realize how their behavior impacts the people around them. Because I don't think most CEOs get up every day, Simon, and say, "I'm gonna go to work today and be a jerk."

Simon Sinek 6:08 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 6:08 I don't think they do that. But you're right. They're looking at successful people who have huge egos, little empathy, wanna micromanage, think they have all the answers, don't really value learning, and they think that's the way to go. So the first thing was to learn who I was.

Simon Sinek 6:26 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 6:27 And, you know, I had to change. You know, I, I walked around for, I don't know, months with praise somebody written on my hand because I had to get comfortable with the fact that it wasn't about me. It was about the people I had the privilege to lead.

Simon Sinek 6:40 What kind of leader were you b- prior?

Garry Ridge 6:43 Be brief, be bright, be gone. That was me.

Simon Sinek 6:45 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 6:46 I was a turbo D on the DiSC scale. You know, I, I really thought that I had to be command and control, and I pretty soon learned that my job was not to command and control.

Simon Sinek 6:58 I'll tell you a story. I'll leave the name out. I met this leader who, I met him at a conference, and he was asked to introduce me. And he was like, uh, he was like doing his best impression of General Patton.

Garry Ridge 7:10 Hmm.

Simon Sinek 7:11 You know? He was c- walking up and down the stage, talking like this and real loud and, you know, be brief, be, you know, what you said, you know? And, uh, he introduces me, and I'm, and I'm literally thinking to myself, "What's with the General Patton impression?" You know? I go up, I do my thing, and then when we, when I'm off the stage, he and I go off and we're just by ourselves walking down the hallway leaving the conference. And he was humble and curious-

Garry Ridge 7:34 Hmm

Simon Sinek 7:35 ... and, and, and asking me questions and, and really, really smart, you know? And I'm thinking to myself, "You're amazing. What's with that?" And you realize that wherever it came from in his career, he had made the same decision that, "For my credibility, I've gotta be strong. I've gotta be commanding. That way people will see me as a leader," blah, blah, blah. And it kept working, right? He kept getting promoting through his career. He wasn't, he was the number two person at the time and, um, and he made it to the big job. And I thought to myself, "This is so exciting. Finally, he got the job. He'll now relax, be his wonderful, fantastic, curious, inspiring self," and he didn't.

Garry Ridge 8:16 Hmm.

Simon Sinek 8:16 He made it to the top job, and he still kept up this weird General Patton thing, and it, you know, he was effective and smart, but I don't think he commanded the kind of loyalty he could've or the kind of inspiration that he could've or the kind of innovation that he could've. If it keeps working to the point you get to CEO, which is exactly what happened to you, this, you described yourself as not the leader you wanted to be, but it kept working.

Garry Ridge 8:39 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 8:40 What was it that you finally make it to the big job, you'd think, "Well, it's gotten me here. I'm just gonna keep going"? What, what was it that you said to yourself, "No, [laughs] now is the time to change"?

Garry Ridge 8:53 You know, it's interesting. I was on a flight from Los Angeles to Sydney, and as you do when you fly, you take stuff to read. And I read two things. I read a quote that's associated to the Dalai Lama, "Our purpose in life is to make people happy. If we can't make them happy, at least don't hurt them." And then I read a second quote from Aristotle that says, "Pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work." And what I thought around me was, "Why aren't people enjoying their, what they're doing?"

Simon Sinek 9:25 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 9:26 And it really became clear to me it w- that it was about the leadership. You know, how did we really create this atmosphere where people were gonna belong?

Simon Sinek 9:35 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 9:36 And, you know, I learnt from people like you, like Ken, and others that I was listening to all you guys, what you were preaching, and I'm thinking, "This has to work. Why are these smart guys talking about it if it doesn't?" Well, I was fortunate that I could actually try it.

Simon Sinek 9:55 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 9:55 So we came up with a truly great purpose in the organization. Our purpose was to create positive, lasting memories. That was to be the purpose of the organization. So what changed in my mind was I couldn't do this alone, and if we were gonna expand to 176 countries around the world, which we did, and if the sun was never gonna set on the people in the organization, I had to make sure that they were in envi- in an environment where they felt safe enough to make decisions and be brave. Because this is simple, but it's not easy-

Simon Sinek 10:30 Mm

Garry Ridge 10:30 ... and time is not your friend.

Simon Sinek 10:31 Mm.

Garry Ridge 10:32 And, you know, you've gotta put the platform in place. I love one of the quotes you had in your book where it says, "Culture equals values plus behavior."

Simon Sinek 10:41 Mm.

Garry Ridge 10:41 Well, I, I took it and I adapted it, and I said, "Culture equals values plus behavior times consistency."

Simon Sinek 10:49 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 10:50 Because a lot of people think that building great-

Simon Sinek 10:52 That's true

Garry Ridge 10:53 ... cultures in organizations is fairy dust.

Simon Sinek 10:55 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 10:56 You sprinkle a little fairy dust on the organization, you bring in one training program, slap a few people around the head, tell them to behave differently and go away, and things will change.

Simon Sinek 11:03 Mm.

Garry Ridge 11:04 They don't.

Simon Sinek 11:05 Mm.

Garry Ridge 11:05 This has to be something you work on day after day after day. So I really decided that I needed to change because I wasn't capable of being the leader I wanted to be leading the way I was in the be brief, be bright, be gone area. And Simon, to be honest, it was scary-

Simon Sinek 11:24 Mm

Garry Ridge 11:24 ... 'cause I had to start saying, "I don't know." You know, I used to introduce myself, [laughs] "G'day. I'm Garry Ridge. I'm the consciously incompetent, probably wrong and roughly right, chairman and CEO of WD-40 Company, and I need all the help I can get." Now, it's interesting when you ask people for help, and you do it sincerely, how much help you get.

Simon Sinek 11:45 Yeah. The courage, 'cause it's easier to do the other. It's easier to put on the, the General Patton act. It's easier to, to be the strong, commanding, especially if you make it to that level, you have some degree of ambition and ego. You don't get there without it. It's the easier option. To say, "I don't know," as you said, is very, very scary for somebody who's supposed to represent... I mean, we all think our credibility comes from our intelligence or our ability to make good decisions, but it, it doesn't. So it raises the question then, where does the credibility of a leader come from?

Garry Ridge 12:18 Authenticity

Simon Sinek 12:19 And what does that mean in a modern context?

Garry Ridge 12:21 I think it means-

Simon Sinek 12:22 'Cause it's an overused term.

Garry Ridge 12:23 Yeah. I think it means acting in a way that's true to your heart consistently, and that's what we had to do.

Simon Sinek 12:31 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 12:31 I say great leaders spend a lot of time in the stinky locker room, and unfortunately, a lot of leaders think they're corporate royalty. You know, uh, you saw our, our offices and then you saw our new offices as well.

Simon Sinek 12:44 Yeah. Yeah.

Garry Ridge 12:44 You know, I remember having a fight basically with our architect when we were designing our new office. I said, "My office is to be 10 by 12." And the plans came back four times with a bigger office for me. They said, "No, you're the CEO. You've got to have a bigger office." I said, "No, I don't. We're not gonna have bigger offices. We're not gonna have private parking spaces. We're going to have a place where people feel comfortable that we are all there with one thing in mind, and that's to help each other succeed."

Simon Sinek 13:13 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 13:14 That's why we, I, I called us a tribe, not a team.

Simon Sinek 13:18 I want to go down that path 'cause I find that really interesting. One of the things that I've changed in the way I talk about companies and, and teams since I, since I started, um, is, is how to refer to the, the group, right? And I used to say family. We're like a family. And one is confronted with the reality of a business, which is if it's a family, no one ever can ever be removed. No one can ever graduate to go work for another company, you know? And the reality is, a- and I think this is the hardest lesson for a leader to learn, and it's one of the reasons why not everybody's qualified to be a leader. I hate to say it. Because the, one of the hardest lessons a leader learns is I have to be loyal to the group before I'm loyal to an individual.

Garry Ridge 14:02 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 14:02 Like, I can sacrifice one person to save the group, but I cannot sacrifice the group to save one person, which is an excruciating lesson to learn.

Garry Ridge 14:10 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 14:10 And we try hard never to get to that point, but the reality is that's what it is.

Garry Ridge 14:15 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 14:15 And so I'm confronted with, well, that's not family then, is it? You know? Because family, it's forever.

Garry Ridge 14:21 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 14:22 And so then, you know, you start adopting team. You know, we're, we're a great team, and you can trade players out, and you can bring players in, and players can go away. But it, even that team is very, for me, it's taken from, from the finite game.

Garry Ridge 14:34 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 14:34 It's taken from this is winning and losing.

Garry Ridge 14:36 Yep.

Simon Sinek 14:36 I'm gonna put a team together for the transaction of this season, and then I'm gonna change my mind next season. And I, I don't like that either. It's, it's also wholly imperfect. Your use of the word tribe I think captures exactly what we're trying to do, which is the, the loyalty and love we have for the family, but the infiniteness of the team that, as you keep saying, you know, the, we're, this is, this is an ever-burning light. This, we want to keep this going forever. When, when did you discover the word tribe as being the perfect articulation of what a company should feel like and be like?

Garry Ridge 15:11 Well, when I think about a tribal leader-

Simon Sinek 15:14 Yeah

Garry Ridge 15:14 ... if you go back and you were to look at tribal leaders from the beginning of mankind-

Simon Sinek 15:18 Mm

Garry Ridge 15:18 ... what was the responsibility of a tribal leader? To be a learner and a teacher. What's the responsibility of a leader of an organization? To be an ever-learner and ever-teacher.

Simon Sinek 15:29 Mm.

Garry Ridge 15:29 Because if we are not learning what we need to learn and teaching what we need to teach to the-

Simon Sinek 15:35 Yeah

Garry Ridge 15:35 ... tribe members, the tribe's gonna go extinct.

Simon Sinek 15:38 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 15:38 And then we had a just cause. Our just cause was a group of people that come together to protect and feed each other.

Simon Sinek 15:46 Mm.

Garry Ridge 15:46 That was our just cause-

Simon Sinek 15:47 Mm

Garry Ridge 15:47 ... as a tribe.

Simon Sinek 15:48 Mm.

Garry Ridge 15:49 So a tribe is not referring to any indigenous group.

Simon Sinek 15:53 Sure.

Garry Ridge 15:54 It's referring to where we all started from mankind. And then if you think about attributes of a tribe, a tribe has values. So I could talk about values. A tribe has people within it that have specialized skills. So everyone in the organization has something to give. They're warriors, right?

Simon Sinek 16:11 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 16:11 They're, they're there to, to protect and feed each other.

Simon Sinek 16:14 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 16:15 There's a place of community, and they love to celebrate. So I, I was able to look at these attributes and say, "If you're a member of our tri- our tribe, you'll be a forever learner and ever teacher. We're gonna have values. We're gonna respect everybody in there. And the other thing we're gonna do is we're gonna be future focused."

Simon Sinek 16:30 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 16:31 Because if a tribe leader is not future focused, and they have put their tribe next to a lake that dries up, the, the tribe will have nothing to drink and they will die.

Simon Sinek 16:41 Right.

Garry Ridge 16:42 So we had to be always looking to the future. So, but the number one essence, Simon, was we are learners and teachers.

Simon Sinek 16:48 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 16:48 We're forever learners, forever teachers.

Simon Sinek 16:51 By the way, that's magical. Um, and as you said, a, a tribal leader has a responsibility for the protection and preservation of the, of the tribe, and so money is important in an organization because that's the lake. That's the fuel. That's the sustenance, and if the money dries up, the tribe dies.

Garry Ridge 17:06 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 17:07 There's a group of people we're talking to, we're preaching to the converted, and-

Garry Ridge 17:09 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 17:10 ... they're just nodding and enjoying-

Garry Ridge 17:11 Yeah, yeah

Simon Sinek 17:11 ... and finding new ways to say all the magical things that you and I both believe, which is great. There are also the cynics out there who go, "Sounds nice, sounds soft, sounds mushy."

Garry Ridge 17:20 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 17:20 You, you quoting the Dalai Lama and Aristotle, you know, uh, good for you. We have to talk about it because it's the proof, which is, which is you still believe in making money. You still believe in, in a, a successful company, but you just believe that you take care of the people and the money comes, as opposed to focusing on the money and the people are... You taking care of your people is if you have the time and energy.

Garry Ridge 17:42 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 17:42 It's rather nice to have. So let's talk about the performance of WD-40.

Garry Ridge 17:46 Sure.

Simon Sinek 17:46 How big was WD-40 when, when you came in?

Garry Ridge 17:50 Uh, market cap about 300 million.

Simon Sinek 17:52 And when you left?

Garry Ridge 17:53 3.6 billion.

Simon Sinek 17:54 Okay. Uh, stock price?

Garry Ridge 17:57 Oh, when I started, $18. Mm, 260.

Simon Sinek 18:02 And how many countries were you in when you started?

Garry Ridge 18:04 70.

Simon Sinek 18:05 And you had left?

Garry Ridge 18:06 176.

Simon Sinek 18:08 So it's worth noting. [laughs]

Garry Ridge 18:10 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 18:10 And it's very important to recognize that basically one product company, yes, there are line extensions, that there are copycat brandsRight?

Garry Ridge 18:22 Yep.

Simon Sinek 18:22 Some of them have decent product.

Garry Ridge 18:23 Yep.

Simon Sinek 18:23 That's, you know, it's, it's fair to say.

Garry Ridge 18:25 Yep.

Simon Sinek 18:26 And yet WD-40 has global recognition-

Garry Ridge 18:29 Yep

Simon Sinek 18:30 ... brand preference.

Garry Ridge 18:30 Yep.

Simon Sinek 18:31 I don't know what your marketing budgets are, but, like, I don't think I've ever seen a WD-40 ad.

Garry Ridge 18:36 Probably. Well, we, you, we're probably not-

Simon Sinek 18:39 Probably not, not to me [laughs]

Garry Ridge 18:41 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 18:41 Not to you. I do have a can of WD-40.

Garry Ridge 18:43 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 18:44 It's a funny thing. It's like there's basics in a household.

Garry Ridge 18:46 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 18:47 I always have a bottle of cheap white wine in my cupboard because if you spill red wine-

Garry Ridge 18:52 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 18:53 ... white wine gets it out.

Garry Ridge 18:54 Okay.

Simon Sinek 18:54 So I always have a bottle of cheap white wine to wash out red wine, and I always have a can-

Garry Ridge 18:58 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 18:58 ... of WD-40 for every squeaky hinge or thing that doesn't-

Garry Ridge 19:01 Of course

Simon Sinek 19:01 ... quite work.

Garry Ridge 19:02 Of course.

Simon Sinek 19:02 [laughs] You have to.

Garry Ridge 19:03 You have to.

Simon Sinek 19:03 It goes with the house.

Garry Ridge 19:04 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 19:04 [laughs]

Garry Ridge 19:05 Eight out of 10 households in the US have a can.

Simon Sinek 19:07 Isn't that amazing?

Garry Ridge 19:08 Isn't that amazing?

Simon Sinek 19:09 Um, and, and the other 10 just have nothing.

Garry Ridge 19:11 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 19:12 And the other two have nothing. [whimsical music] We interrupt this podcast with an ad, with authenticity. I was super excited to hear that Porsche wanted to sponsor the podcast because I love their brand. I actually own a Macan myself. Then came Patrick Long, an actual race car driver, and he took me out on the track. This is two minutes of me with a massive grin on my face. At least that's how I remember it. Ugh.

Speaker 19:43 How about the latest GT3 with the Weissach package? I think they're calling this one Cartinia Yellow?

Simon Sinek 19:50 This is awesome. [laughs]

Speaker 19:53 [engine revving] This car is built and bred for a racetrack.

Simon Sinek 20:01 Yeah.

Speaker 20:01 So there's my blue cone. I turn my head all the way through the corner. Pa- patient, patient, patient, and then go. [engine revving] Feeling all right?

Simon Sinek 20:12 It's the feeling of no control.

Speaker 20:14 Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Simon Sinek 20:15 And then you see things coming at you-

Speaker 20:16 Absolutely

Simon Sinek 20:17 ... at extremely [laughs] high speed.

Speaker 20:19 Right. And, and yeah, visually, when you don't really know this place, there's a lot that meets the eye.

Simon Sinek 20:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 20:25 So, yeah, you tell me. When you've had enough, we'll bring it in.

Simon Sinek 20:28 I mean, to be honest with you, I wanna drive.

Speaker 20:31 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 20:31 You know?

Speaker 20:32 No, I get it. I get it. That's like, that's that element of control.

Simon Sinek 20:35 Like, being the passenger is a lot less fun.

Speaker 20:36 Oh, yeah. Well, what do you say?

Simon Sinek 20:40 Go ahead, one more.

Speaker 20:40 All right, one more. He's, he's still in it. All right, here we go. [tires screeching]

Simon Sinek 20:46 Not too much. [laughs]

Speaker 20:48 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 20:49 All right, that's fun. I realized what a metaphor for life this was. You know, I was legitimately... Like, I had legitima- legit fear when we first started. We were going fast. I'm getting... I can't really see because of the camera. You know, you're talking to me while you're driving with one hand, and we're, you know, coming into a turn at 95 miles an hour. Like, hold the wheel lightly, relax, and, and you can do difficult things more easily when you're calm.

Speaker 21:11 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 21:11 That was wonderful. Too... Over too soon.

Speaker 21:14 Super fun. [whimsical music]

Simon Sinek 21:21 So it's worth noting that this is not fairy dust and pixies.

Garry Ridge 21:25 No.

Simon Sinek 21:25 This is, this is, this is a, this is hard business.

Garry Ridge 21:28 It is, and there's a formula.

Simon Sinek 21:30 Go on.

Garry Ridge 21:31 Yeah. So you and I, Simon, could write a really nice strategic plan, right? We'll write a nice strategic plan. We'll take it along to some smart professor and say, "Mark up our strategic plan."

Simon Sinek 21:43 Right.

Garry Ridge 21:43 "Great strategic plan, you guys. 70 out of 100."

Simon Sinek 21:46 Right.

Garry Ridge 21:47 But if 30% of the people go to work every day passionately executing against that strategic plan-

Simon Sinek 21:54 Yeah

Garry Ridge 21:54 ... 30 times 70 is a number. But if 80 or 90% of the people in the organization go to work every day and passionately executing against that strategic plan, 80 times 70 is a much bigger number.

Simon Sinek 22:10 Oh.

Garry Ridge 22:10 So the formula is very simple.

Simon Sinek 22:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Garry Ridge 22:13 The will of the people times the strategy equals the outcome. Most organizations spend a disproportionate amount of their time on strategy and execution instead of people, purpose, values, and learning. But if you spend a good time on people, purpose, values, and learning, you raise the engagement of the people so you have more people enthusiastically, passionately getting up every day, executing your strategic plan. Oh, duh.

Simon Sinek 22:46 [laughs]

Garry Ridge 22:46 It is that freaking simple, Simon.

Simon Sinek 22:49 But it... Okay, I'm gonna... I wanna sta- say it again because I think it's so clever, which is there's no such thing as a perfect strategic plan, and we obsess about the strategic plan, and I've definitely been guilty of tweaking the plan, tweaking the plan, tweaking the plan. It's always getting better, and we forget that you can have a, an imperfect plan-

Garry Ridge 23:04 Right

Simon Sinek 23:04 ... which is fine, a 70% good plan-

Garry Ridge 23:06 Yeah

Simon Sinek 23:06 ... which is executable.

Garry Ridge 23:07 Yep.

Simon Sinek 23:08 Uh, it's a 70% good plan with 30% passion is a, is a very different outcome than 80% passion.

Garry Ridge 23:14 Absolutely.

Simon Sinek 23:15 'Cause at least there's consistency of the 70% plan done with, done with, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, purpose and, and conscientiousness. So good.

Garry Ridge 23:25 You know, I was talking to a CEO-

Simon Sinek 23:26 So good

Garry Ridge 23:26 ... the other day, and we were talking about the, you know, the reason why investing in building a great culture is so important. And I... You know, he was going, "No, no, no, no, no." I said, "Look, I can call BS on that."

Simon Sinek 23:39 Right.

Garry Ridge 23:39 I said, "I want you to go today, and I want you to tell everyone in your organization to stay home for a month and do nothing. What do you think the outcome will be?" He said, "We'll, w- we'll be destroyed." So I said, "Why are you letting 70% of your people come to work every day and sit and quit? Because you've created this stinky culture where they don't feel like they belong, they don't feel like they matter, they can't make choices, and they have a whole bunch of fear instead of learning, and the people that are leading them are managers instead of coaches." You know, you walk into the first day of your job, Simon. I come up to you, say, "Good, g'day, Simon. Welcome to the company. I'm your manager." What happens if you walk in and say, "G'day, Simon. I'm your coach"?I know what it takes to win a game here. I'm gonna stand on the sideline and watch you play. I'm never gonna run on the field and take the ball from you. I'm never gonna go to the podium and take the prize away from you. And I'm gonna spend a lot of time in the stinky locker room with you, Simon, because I only have one goal, to help you step into the best version of your personal self. 'Cause I know, I know you've got it in you, and I just wanna see you win.

Simon Sinek 24:46 Oh my God, where do I sign up?

Garry Ridge 24:48 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 24:48 One of the things that WD-40 does is when you get a promotion, and I think throughout your tenure, but when you get a promotion to a managerial position, you offer teaching to those people-

Garry Ridge 25:01 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 25:01 ... so they know how to coach. 'Cause we don't expect people to know how to coach. And it goes back to what we said before, which is we don't expect people to know how to lead. We don't teach them how to lead. And by changing the terminology, I think, because most people would be insecure to say, "I don't know how to lead. Give me the job." But I think people would be very comfortable saying, "No idea how to coach, but I'd love to learn." The language is a lower, is a lower bar. And I, and I... It's a very clever thing. And so I know you teach people how to coach.

Garry Ridge 25:26 Yeah. Well, we actually changed, we took out the word manager.

Simon Sinek 25:30 So it doesn't exist in the company.

Garry Ridge 25:31 Was coach.

Simon Sinek 25:31 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 25:32 So if you, if I had the privilege of leading you, I was your coach.

Simon Sinek 25:36 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 25:37 And it's amazing, once you change the description and can describe what the behavior should be-

Simon Sinek 25:44 Yeah

Garry Ridge 25:44 ... so I would say, "You're a coach, and here's what a coach is all about," what I just shared with you a few minutes ago.

Simon Sinek 25:49 Right.

Garry Ridge 25:49 And your job is to coach. And we used to mandate that at least every 90 days, our coaches would sit down with those that have the privilege to lead and talk about, "What's getting in your way? How are you? Are you okay?" You know, "What is it that I need to do to help you succeed? How do you think you're succeeding against our goals?" You know the book I wrote with Ken Blanchard called Helping People Win at Work. The tie line was, "I'm not here to mark your paper, I'm here to help you get an A."

Simon Sinek 26:18 Mm.

Garry Ridge 26:18 So our job as coaches-

Simon Sinek 26:21 Mm

Garry Ridge 26:21 ... was to define what an A looks like-

Simon Sinek 26:23 Mm

Garry Ridge 26:23 ... 'cause that's very important. Most people let people down because they don't clearly define if an A walked in the door today, what it would look like.

Simon Sinek 26:32 Mm.

Garry Ridge 26:32 After defining that, my role as a coach is to help you get the A.

Simon Sinek 26:36 Mm.

Garry Ridge 26:37 And that's what we used to sit down and talk about all the time. Unfortunately, a lot of people, a lot of leaders, and well, managers, protect their own comfort zone at the expense of other people's development.

Simon Sinek 26:48 Mm.

Garry Ridge 26:48 That's where the bravery comes in. And it normally happens because there's not clarity around what do we expect from each other.

Simon Sinek 26:54 Can you tell me a story of somebody who came to the company? They heard the hype, they met the people, the interviews I'm sure were quite different and quite wonderful. The company liked them, they offered them a job. They liked the company, they said yes. Um, but they brought bad habits. They, once bitten, twice shy. They'd worked for some people who said all the right things, and in good times they might have even done it, but as soon as a little stress was added to the system, you know, micromanagement showed up, regression showed up, you know, uh, removing accountability showed up, removing agency showed up. Somebody who's cynical, who... H- how did you, like, how do you treat that person?

Garry Ridge 27:29 Yeah, I mean, you know, one [chuckles] of the things I used to do was about 90 days after someone joined the company, I'd go to them and say, "Did we lie to you?"

Simon Sinek 27:39 Mm.

Garry Ridge 27:40 Around, you know, what we promised. And in every circumstance they said, "It's better than you ever described it."

Simon Sinek 27:46 Mm.

Garry Ridge 27:46 So, you know, we'd have people that would come in the company and they would go, "Oh, yeah, sure." But then it's up to us as leaders in the organization to help them understand what the key elements are of success within the organization. Interestingly enough, if they didn't fall into line, the tribe would vote them off the island.

Simon Sinek 28:06 Mm.

Garry Ridge 28:06 It wouldn't have to be us, you know? And I have shared people with competitors, there's no doubt about that.

Simon Sinek 28:12 [laughs]

Garry Ridge 28:12 In the end, I want people to be happy in the organization.

Simon Sinek 28:15 Sure.

Garry Ridge 28:15 And if you're not happy, go somewhere else.

Simon Sinek 28:17 Yeah, of course.

Garry Ridge 28:18 You know, it's... But the story that's really cool is when I talk about how in an organization you can use your values to really help redirect people. And this is a nearly true story. Names are changed to protect the innocent.

Simon Sinek 28:33 Sure.

Garry Ridge 28:33 We're in a meeting one morning, a group of leaders, and there's someone in the room that is sucking the energy out of the room. You've been in one of those meetings, right?

Simon Sinek 28:42 100%.

Garry Ridge 28:43 And our second value at the company was we value creating positive, lasting memories in all of our relationships. This person was not creating a positive, lasting memory. So what do you do as the leader? Well, you could ignore the behavior, which means the whole structure of the culture's gonna collapse. 'Cause everyone else in the room says, "Well, you may as well have that up on the wall, but you're never gonna act on it, right?"

Simon Sinek 29:06 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 29:07 You can stop the meeting immediately and say, "Simon, that behavior's unacceptable." Everybody else in the room says, "When am I gonna be publicly executed?"

Simon Sinek 29:14 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 29:14 So the meeting came to an end, and you recall our new building in San Diego.

Simon Sinek 29:20 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 29:20 I w- walked out of the room, I said, I- I'll use Simon as the example, "Simon, let's go for a walk." So I walk out of the building and I look in a trash can, under a car, and behind a bush, and Simon says, "What the hell are you doing?" I said, "Simon, the you I know and love was not in that room today. What's on your mind? What's getting in your way? How can I help you?"

Simon Sinek 29:42 Mm.

Garry Ridge 29:43 And Simon starts to talk. "Well, I had a bad morning. I kicked my foot on the bed, you know-

Simon Sinek 29:49 Mm

Garry Ridge 29:49 ... I spilled coffee, someone flipped me off." So it wasn't... But we were able to have that conversation. I said, "Well, Simon, you live our value of creating positive, lasting memories every day, and today was just one of those learning moments for you."

Simon Sinek 30:01 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 30:02 "So I wanted to make sure you were aware of that." He said, "Geez, I'm sorry, Garry." We had a hug. He goes back into the office, visits a few people and says, "Hey, you know, that wasn't me." They say, "Are you okay?"

Simon Sinek 30:12 Mm.

Garry Ridge 30:13 "What's getting in your way? What's on your mind?"

Simon Sinek 30:15 Mm.

Garry Ridge 30:15 The next morning I notice people going to him and say, "Is everything okay today?" That's the thing about when you have a clear set of values and you live them, where you can show people that it's not about... you know, you're not performing, but what's going inside you?

Simon Sinek 30:30 Mm.

Garry Ridge 30:30 And I love the story you tell about the sales guy, right? The guy's not getting his sales three months in a row, and instead of going in and, you know, reefing out of himself, you say, "What's, what's, what's up?"

Simon Sinek 30:43 Mm.

Garry Ridge 30:43 You say, "Are, are you okay?"

Simon Sinek 30:45 Mm.

Garry Ridge 30:45 You know? And, and I think that's, that's what's really important, showing people true concern about wanting to live who you are is so important.

Simon Sinek 30:55 Have you noticed a difference in, in the younger generation of employees who came into WD-40? I mean, because every generation brings both the advantages and baggage of their generation, right? Not better or worse, just different. Our movement, if we can, uh, we, we are part of the same movement, even if companies don't believe in it and even if they don't follow it, they're all forced to have purpose statements on their website, which I see as a win.

Garry Ridge 31:17 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 31:17 At least socially they have to keep up appearances for this thing that they don't-

Garry Ridge 31:19 Sure

Simon Sinek 31:19 ... even believe it, right? Um, things like boundaries, things like mental health, these are kind of expected from this younger generation of the places they come to work. Can you talk about how, both the successes and the challenges you had of a younger generation coming into, into-

Garry Ridge 31:37 Yeah

Simon Sinek 31:37 ... into your culture?

Garry Ridge 31:38 I think the older generation are the worst ones.

Simon Sinek 31:41 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 31:41 Because the younger ones coming in are aligned with what you and I believe in, right?

Simon Sinek 31:46 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 31:46 And I haven't met-

Simon Sinek 31:47 Well, we've built our movement railing against the boomers. [laughs]

Garry Ridge 31:49 Right. Yeah, yeah. But I, I haven't met a, a, a person, young, old, or even my dog-

Simon Sinek 31:56 Yeah

Garry Ridge 31:57 ... who doesn't benefit by knowing they belong-

Simon Sinek 32:01 Yeah

Garry Ridge 32:01 ... and they matter, so, and they want to learn.

Simon Sinek 32:04 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 32:04 So I think the younger generations coming in, they're, they're ready to go as long as you are there to show them they belong and they matter.

Simon Sinek 32:13 They have a cynicism too, right? Remember-

Garry Ridge 32:14 They do

Simon Sinek 32:14 ... they grew up, they grew up in a world where-

Garry Ridge 32:16 It was-

Simon Sinek 32:16 ... their parents were laid off. It's not a meritocracy. And so there's a reason why, you know, when you and I were young, uh, we believed that you work hard, you do the extra work, then you go to your boss and say, "Look at all what I've done. Give me the raise."

Garry Ridge 32:30 Right, right.

Simon Sinek 32:30 And the younger generation says, "Give me the raise-"

Garry Ridge 32:33 Raise

Simon Sinek 32:33 ... "and you see what I'm gonna do." And that, that could be interpreted as entitlement. I understand it as they grew up in a world where there's no loyalty from the company, so get your money while you can because it, you may not last, right?

Garry Ridge 32:44 Right.

Simon Sinek 32:44 I understand where it comes from. But at the end of the day, when you and I, you know, when somebody comes to us and says, you know, "Give me the money and you see what I'm gonna do," and we're going, "Well, why don't you do the work and I'll be happy to take care of you?" Like, just talk to me how the very practical ways in which a cor- a culture like WD-40 adapts for a very different-

Garry Ridge 33:05 Yeah

Simon Sinek 33:05 ... perspective from, from, from different people.

Garry Ridge 33:07 So here's one example. You know, once upon a time you had these annual reviews, right? Where you're actually looking backwards.

Simon Sinek 33:12 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 33:13 Well, maybe now the way to go is having steps along the way-

Simon Sinek 33:18 Mm

Garry Ridge 33:18 ... so you can recognize performance. So the younger people, instead of saying, "Work here for 12 months and become a, a senior something or a, a new role in the position," you have steps along the way that says, "Okay, three months in, now I'm gonna give you this responsibility and we'll give you this." So it's encouraging them to think the way that you and I are talking about, which is you are gonna be rewarded. You're not gonna be forgotten. And I think a lot of cases that old, you know, annual review system was really working negative because I don't wanna wait 364 days for you to tell me what I should have done better or how good I've done.

Simon Sinek 33:56 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 33:57 What I wanna do is be coached along the way.

Simon Sinek 34:00 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 34:00 So I think that was a typical example. But it goes back to that one thing I said earlier, Simon, that I haven't met anybody who doesn't feel better if you show them they belong.

Simon Sinek 34:09 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 34:09 I haven't met anybody who doesn't feel better if you show them you're gonna help them learn.

Simon Sinek 34:13 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 34:14 Or that y- they actually matter in the organization.

Simon Sinek 34:17 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 34:18 It, it, it's just fundamental.

Simon Sinek 34:20 You know, and I've always hated the, the annual review because having done them and having been on the receiving end of them, you can only remember the past couple months anyway. So if somebody's been a complete-

Garry Ridge 34:30 Yeah

Simon Sinek 34:31 ... screw-up for the past two months, but they've had, you know, sort of 10 months of magic, the 10 months are completely forgotten.

Garry Ridge 34:37 Gone. Gone.

Simon Sinek 34:38 Uh, or, or conversely-

Garry Ridge 34:39 Sure

Simon Sinek 34:39 ... 10 months of complete screw-up, and the last two months you're like, "You're amazing." [laughs]

Garry Ridge 34:43 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 34:43 Had that too.

Garry Ridge 34:44 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 34:45 You're right. Uh, and, you, you know, you're challenging me. Here's my very real struggle. You know, we have a small company. Um, I agree with everything you've said. I don't do everything you say. And, uh, you know, I, I know that I can do better even using the language. We don't call our people coaches. I'm thinking maybe we should, you know? We don't use the term tribe. I'm thinking maybe we should. The annual reviews, we do do them even though we're not a fan of them. Uh, and the th- the, the, the idea of planning towards the future. We're getting better at helping people understand what an A looks like. You're challenging me to, to do the things that I know are important. Um, here's where I feel the very real strain, which is just time, which is energy, which is I feel pulled in every different direction. I can't do it all. How do I, how do I get all these things accomplished? How do I build this new plan to move forwards? How do I help all my people h- uh, uh, learn to coach somebody to get to an A? How do I define what the A is? I'm a little overwhelmed.

Garry Ridge 35:43 Right.

Simon Sinek 35:44 The, I wanna do it all.

Garry Ridge 35:45 Right.

Simon Sinek 35:45 And I'm a little overwhelmed.

Garry Ridge 35:46 Well, imagine how efficient and how better the organization would be if you did it all.

Simon Sinek 35:51 No, I get all that. You know? I mean, like, imagine how-

Garry Ridge 35:54 How much time you would have

Simon Sinek 35:55 ... how much healthier I would be if I worked out every day and only ate celery.

Garry Ridge 35:58 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 35:58 Like, yeah, sure. You know, I know all that. I know all that. Unfortunately, you know, focusing on the urgent at the expense of the important is part of the, is part of the challenge of any leadership position.

Garry Ridge 36:08 You're right. This is not easy, man.

Simon Sinek 36:10 And so I just, I wanna know from your very real experience, I guess I'm answering my own question, which is you don't do it all at once. You pick one. You do that. You ask for help.

Garry Ridge 36:20 Right.

Simon Sinek 36:20 You know? Then you do the next one.

Garry Ridge 36:22 Yeah, this took 25 years.

Simon Sinek 36:24 Right.

Garry Ridge 36:24 You know? Well, it took about five years to gain momentum when I first started to implement a lot of this stuff.

Simon Sinek 36:29 Right, five years to gain momentum, which means it wasn't even fully implemented or completed. It was momentum.

Garry Ridge 36:33 Right. And then it becomes-

Simon Sinek 36:34 So I have to give myself some grace that-

Garry Ridge 36:36 Yeah

Simon Sinek 36:36 ... this is an ongoing process-

Garry Ridge 36:37 Yeah

Simon Sinek 36:37 ... and it's not a finite game.

Garry Ridge 36:39 You know, it's not fairy dust.

Simon Sinek 36:40 Yeah, yeah.

Garry Ridge 36:41 You know?

Simon Sinek 36:41 It takes work.

Garry Ridge 36:42 You know, fundamental foundations, here they wereClearly defined purpose. Have we got it?

Simon Sinek 36:48 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 36:49 Set of values. Do we have them?

Simon Sinek 36:51 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 36:51 Are they hierarchical? Right? Are they clearly defined?

Simon Sinek 36:56 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 36:56 Yes. Okay. Now, what's next? Let's get rid of the word manager and put the word coach in.

Simon Sinek 37:02 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 37:02 Great. And then let's take fear out of the organization, which was an amazing thing we did, where we said, "We do not make mistakes. We have learning moments." And what's the definition of a learning moment? A positive or negative outcome of any situation that needs to be openly and freely shared to benefit all people. Now, when I implemented the learning moment... Here's a true story.

Simon Sinek 37:25 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 37:25 So I'm couple of years in now as the CEO, drunk the Kool-Aid of Ken Blanchard. I said, "We're gonna reduce fear. We're gonna have learning moments now. So what I want you to do is I want you to email me, uh, and tell me a negative or a positive learning moment that you've had in the organization. And by the way, we're gonna have a contest, and we're gonna have winners every month."

Simon Sinek 37:45 [laughs]

Garry Ridge 37:46 "And at the end of the contest, we're gonna send someone around the world first class to do something."

Simon Sinek 37:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Garry Ridge 37:52 The first month, I got three. So what did I do? I made heroes out of these three people who were brave enough-

Simon Sinek 37:59 Yeah

Garry Ridge 38:00 ... to share a negative learning moment. They were gonna be stars in my view.

Simon Sinek 38:04 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 38:04 The next month, I get six. What did I do? I made heroes of them. The next month, I got 24. And then by the end of the, the, the program, I'm getting hundreds. But it takes time-

Simon Sinek 38:14 Yeah

Garry Ridge 38:15 ... to build a lack of fear in the organization that, you know, sure, you... I'm gonna tell you what failed, and you're not gonna come down on me, or you're not gonna embarrass me? No. We're gonna use it. So, you know, I say imagine a place where you go to work every day, you make a contribution to something bigger than yourself.

Simon Sinek 38:34 Mm.

Garry Ridge 38:34 You learn something new.

Simon Sinek 38:36 Mm.

Garry Ridge 38:36 You're protected and set free by a compelling set of values, and you go home happy. Happy people build happy families. Happy families build happy communities. Happy communities build a happy world. We need a happy world.

Simon Sinek 38:51 Mm.

Garry Ridge 38:51 And it's as you said, Simon, you know, who wants to go to work when Dad and Mum come home and sit round the dinner table and bitch-

Simon Sinek 38:59 Mm

Garry Ridge 38:59 ... about how badly they've been treated? Now, one of these young kids are running away and say, "I don't wanna ever do that."

Simon Sinek 39:04 Mm.

Garry Ridge 39:05 But what happens if they go home happy and say, "You know, I had the best day today. I learnt this. I was respected. You know, I was treated fairly." Now, I've had crucial conversations. I've had redirection conversations. I've had opportunities where I've had to let people move onto something.

Simon Sinek 39:21 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 39:21 But through that whole 25 years, Simon, we never laid a person off ever.

Simon Sinek 39:25 Mm.

Garry Ridge 39:26 Through any upturn, downturn, whatever, because we said we were there together to do what we needed to do together. But there were some people that didn't fit the company.

Simon Sinek 39:36 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 39:36 Okay. Go be happy somewhere else. I want you to leave with respect and dignity.

Simon Sinek 39:40 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 39:40 And I want you to go and find a place to be. If this is not for you, that's okay.

Simon Sinek 39:44 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 39:44 Um, so, you know, I think it's, again, values plus behavior times consistency.

Simon Sinek 39:49 I like the addition. I got that from the Marine Corps, which is-

Garry Ridge 39:51 I know. I, I quoted it in my-

Simon Sinek 39:52 ... culture equals values plus behavior. But I m- I like the addition. Culture equals values plus behavior times consistency. I think that's 100% true.

Garry Ridge 39:58 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 39:58 It's not a one and done, the annual offsite, here are our values-

Garry Ridge 40:01 No

Simon Sinek 40:01 ... here are the, what we expect, and you're done. It's practice over time.

Garry Ridge 40:03 You know, a lot of people think this is the soft stuff.

Simon Sinek 40:05 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 40:06 And it, it's not. This is hard.

Simon Sinek 40:07 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 40:07 Because if it was easy-

Simon Sinek 40:09 We'd all be doing it

Garry Ridge 40:10 ... we wouldn't have 70% of people going to work every day disengaged or actively disengaged.

Simon Sinek 40:14 Yeah. I, I, I, I heard a statistic. I'll get the numbers wrong, but you'll get it. Um, which was, um, something like people come to work, and they're... Something like 70% are disengaged in their work.

Garry Ridge 40:25 Mm.

Simon Sinek 40:25 I mean, some, some extraordinarily high-

Garry Ridge 40:27 Mm

Simon Sinek 40:27 ... high number of disengagement in, in American companies. If somebody gets yelled at, the disengagement number goes down to, like, 30%. I know. And if somebody is given one compliment about, you know, one skill or one talent, the disengagement number plummets to, like, 5% or whatever it is.

Garry Ridge 40:45 Right, right.

Simon Sinek 40:45 Right? But what it shows is, is that when I get yelled at, at least you know I exist. [laughs]

Garry Ridge 40:53 [laughs] I get it. I get it.

Simon Sinek 40:54 At least you know... 'Cause everybody goes, "What?"

Garry Ridge 40:57 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 40:57 Getting yelled at actually is better than ignoring somebody, right? Or just letting them get on with their work, 'cause at least you care that I'm alive-

Garry Ridge 41:05 I'm here

Simon Sinek 41:05 ... and that I show up for work.

Garry Ridge 41:06 I'm here. I'm breathing.

Simon Sinek 41:06 You know? And I'm a person. You know my name, right?

Garry Ridge 41:09 Yeah. Right.

Simon Sinek 41:09 But I found that astonishing.

Garry Ridge 41:10 I know.

Simon Sinek 41:11 And how the... And the numbers... And again, I'm getting the exact numbers wrong, but the, the differentials are basically the same, which is it plummets. And we're not talking about, like, coaching programs and, you know, growth programs and finding what... One compliment-

Garry Ridge 41:25 Yes

Simon Sinek 41:25 ... of one skill or one gift-

Garry Ridge 41:27 Yeah

Simon Sinek 41:27 ... makes somebody engaged, and they're like, "Oh, this place is wonderful."

Garry Ridge 41:30 I matter.

Simon Sinek 41:31 I matter.

Garry Ridge 41:31 I matter.

Simon Sinek 41:32 I matter.

Garry Ridge 41:32 It's simple. I get it.

Simon Sinek 41:33 And it's a, such a simple thing. Look, you know, I don't, I refuse to, to use the term soft skills, as you know. It's human skills.

Garry Ridge 41:38 Right.

Simon Sinek 41:39 And we want people to learn the hard skills and the human skills to be effective at work. Um, hard skills, the skills you need to do your job. Human skills, you, the skills you need to be a better human being. And WD-40 is one of the best examples in corporate America, as far as I'm concerned. And the fact you, that you are public, I think makes it even better, right? Because people poo-poo it when you're not, you know?

Garry Ridge 41:58 Right, right.

Simon Sinek 41:59 And that you had the courage to understand that you were public and that you had a responsibility to the shareholders, but not the only responsibility to the shareholders, and that you were playing the long game.

Garry Ridge 42:10 I had a goal. I want to build an enduring company that I would be proud to pass on to others.

Simon Sinek 42:14 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 42:15 And, and I think we kind of nearly got that. And, you know, I was very aware of the shareholder needs, and it's interesting, when I first started-

Simon Sinek 42:23 But, but third, not first.

Garry Ridge 42:24 Right. Well-

Simon Sinek 42:25 Employee, customer

Garry Ridge 42:26 ... A, A plus B equals C.

Simon Sinek 42:27 Right.

Garry Ridge 42:27 They, they're C. But I remember when I first started going to Wall Street, I'd take my investor relations deck, and the first five pages were always about culture. And I could see the analysts sitting across from me, their eyes are rolling, kind of saying to me, "Get o- get over that. Let's get to the numbers."

Simon Sinek 42:44 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 42:44 It was very interesting in probably my last five years how engaged now they were becoming in a, a strong culture. In fact, we had one shareholder... that took a huge stake in the company. And I asked why. They said, "It's the culture."

Simon Sinek 43:03 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 43:03 And they never talked to me about quarter-to-quarter earnings.

Simon Sinek 43:06 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 43:07 They, they said, "Okay, you've gotta meet your goals over time," which we did.

Simon Sinek 43:11 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 43:11 But, you know, one of my shareholders, I said to, I said to them once, "I'm not smart enough to run a company in 90-day intervals."

Simon Sinek 43:19 [laughs]

Garry Ridge 43:19 And this guy said, "I'm glad you're not dumb enough to try."

Simon Sinek 43:22 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 43:22 Well, I am the dean of dumbassery, as you know.

Simon Sinek 43:25 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 43:25 But, you know, it's like that wasn't what it's all about. We're gonna play the long game.

Simon Sinek 43:29 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 43:30 And there's another thing that I found really interesting as we went through COVID. You know, it was in my last two years of being CEO, so it was an interesting time. But we got into COVID, and we'd just done our employee opinion survey feedback, and we had 93% employee engagement, 98% of people said they loved to work at the company, 97% said they respected their, their coach, who was their boss. So we get to January 2021, Simon, and you remember that time?

Simon Sinek 43:58 Mm-hmm.

Garry Ridge 43:59 The world was still topsy-turvy. There was no sign of, you know, a real vaccination. We were working hard to keep the tribe together. And I said to the folks, "We need to go out and do a, a pulse test, just see if w- we're still holding up." So we went and did a pulse test, and the numbers came back, and they were all pretty similar except for one that went up, and the one that went up was the answer to the question, "I'm excited about my place in the company's future." Now, this is January 2021.

Simon Sinek 44:30 Wow.

Garry Ridge 44:31 And I said, "There's something wrong with that data."

Simon Sinek 44:34 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 44:34 "It can't be right. Go check it."

Simon Sinek 44:36 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 44:36 They went out and checked it. It was right. I said, "How can anybody be excited about their place in the company future when we don't know what the world's gonna be like?"

Simon Sinek 44:45 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 44:45 "Go find out." We went and found out.

Simon Sinek 44:48 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 44:49 You know what they said? "I feel safe." That's what the tribe said. "If I need to be-"

Simon Sinek 44:56 They were, they were watching their friends getting laid off and-

Garry Ridge 44:58 No. They said, "I feel safe. If I need to be anywhere right now, I need to be here." Simon, I got goosebumps then. I got goosebumps now when I think about it.

Simon Sinek 45:07 Mm.

Garry Ridge 45:07 I said to our leadership team, "We did it."

Simon Sinek 45:09 Mm.

Garry Ridge 45:10 If during this time people can say that, "You know what? This is the place we think it is," one of the proudest moments of my life.

Simon Sinek 45:18 Say again the purpose of the company.

Garry Ridge 45:20 Our purpose is to create positive, lasting memories, solving problems in factories, homes, and workshops around the world. We solve problems, and we create opportunities.

Simon Sinek 45:29 I love that. It's beautiful. The other part which I also love, which is the, the opening part, which is to, to make moments that matter, and I think what's really important is I don't think people could argue... It's not a product-based purpose.

Garry Ridge 45:41 No.

Simon Sinek 45:41 You know? And I think when companies think about purpose, they default to the, to the product.

Garry Ridge 45:45 Yes.

Simon Sinek 45:46 You know, WD-40 is a lubricant that makes-

Garry Ridge 45:49 Stops squeaks

Simon Sinek 45:50 ... it doesn't, it stops squeaks. It doesn't, it makes m- things move smoothly. It doesn't create moments that matter at all, right? Memories that matter is just not what WD-40 is doing. It is a statement of the kind of company you want to build.

Garry Ridge 46:03 Right.

Simon Sinek 46:04 And the attention that people put into the product, the marketing, the sales, the... you know, comes out of it.

Garry Ridge 46:09 Right.

Simon Sinek 46:09 And they, as you said, 80% of the people are following, you know, a 70% good strategy. In your case, 90-something percent are following-

Garry Ridge 46:15 Right, right

Simon Sinek 46:16 ... a 70% good strategy, and I think that's really important. I, a- and it's something that even in my work I always struggle, which is people are like, "We believe in your work. We believe in your work," and they show me a beautiful purpose statement that's really about the product.

Garry Ridge 46:26 Right.

Simon Sinek 46:27 And which is, again, not to sound like I'm, you know, kowtowing here, o- uh, one of the reasons I love your company as an example is it's not glamorous.

Garry Ridge 46:34 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 46:35 Because very often when there's a glamorous tech product, you know, an AI product, for example, and we come up with a purpose statement, it sounds glamorous because the product is glamorous.

Garry Ridge 46:44 Sure.

Simon Sinek 46:44 And so if you can take a non-glamorous product with what used to be a dumpy office, you know, uh, and public... all the things that shouldn't work according to, you know-

Garry Ridge 46:55 Yes

Simon Sinek 46:55 ... modern conventional wisdom, and it not only works, it works better than most companies. You know, your, your success is, is better than most.

Garry Ridge 47:03 Yes.

Simon Sinek 47:04 But I think one of the reasons you converted so many analysts is at some point you can't help it, and it's partially because you're such a great preacher for the movement. At some point, they can't help but listen to you and relate to their own jobs, which is, "I would like to work in a place like WD-40. M- my investment bank treats me like dirt."

Garry Ridge 47:21 Yes.

Simon Sinek 47:21 "I want th-" And at some point-

Garry Ridge 47:23 Yes

Simon Sinek 47:24 ... the, the hardest of asses of analysts at some point has to say, "Shit, I want that."

Garry Ridge 47:29 Yes. And that happened a couple of times.

Simon Sinek 47:31 That's, that has to be the, that has to be the, the reason.

Garry Ridge 47:33 Yeah. I mean, why not? I mean-

Simon Sinek 47:35 So we- you're not preaching, "This is the right way to do it. This is the right way to do it." You're saying, "This is how my people feel when they come to work, dot, dot, dot. Wouldn't you like to feel that way?"

Garry Ridge 47:44 Exactly. Exactly. Wouldn't you like to go home happy? And that's the other thing, you know. Now, you know, I, I just spent 25, my 25-year apprenticeship in leadership.

Simon Sinek 47:53 [laughs]

Garry Ridge 47:53 Now I'm putting it to work because I believe that business not only has a responsibility but an opportunity to make a positive difference in the world.

Simon Sinek 48:02 Amen.

Garry Ridge 48:03 And I get so frustrated around this, and that's why I do what I do now, is I can call BS, not because I'm a smart guy. You know, that's why the title of my book is the title of my book. But it's because I believe that if you understand fundamentally-

Simon Sinek 48:19 Mm

Garry Ridge 48:19 ... the, the foundation that you need to put in and you take Simon Sinek's advice, culture equals values plus behavior, add a little consistency, and you do it-

Simon Sinek 48:29 Mm

Garry Ridge 48:30 ... you can build a place where people go to work and go home happy, and you will build a better world.

Simon Sinek 48:34 Mm.

Garry Ridge 48:35 And we need it. We need it so much now. You know, I've, I watch people get destroyed working in crappy cultures, and it's not fair. It's not fair. So you can have a great culture, and you can have a great company-

Simon Sinek 48:50 Mm

Garry Ridge 48:50 ... and you can feel good about it, and you can send your people home happy.

Simon Sinek 48:53 You and I both believe that loving work is a right and not a privilege.You know, that you go out with your friends and somebody says, "I love my job," and everybody else goes, "Oh, you're so lucky."

Garry Ridge 49:01 Mm.

Simon Sinek 49:02 As if they won a lottery.

Garry Ridge 49:03 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 49:03 You know? You and I both believe that the, the people who don't like going to work should be the exception rather than the rule, and it is something entitled to every single person who chooses to work for another, for every employee on the planet. They have the right, not the privilege-

Garry Ridge 49:17 Yeah

Simon Sinek 49:18 ... to enjoy going to work.

Garry Ridge 49:19 Yes.

Simon Sinek 49:19 Doesn't mean every day is easy.

Garry Ridge 49:20 No.

Simon Sinek 49:20 Doesn't mean every day is fun.

Garry Ridge 49:22 No.

Simon Sinek 49:22 You know, I, I like to equate it to the difference between, you know, l- liking your children and loving your children.

Garry Ridge 49:27 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 49:27 You love your children every single day of your life. You don't like your children every day. [laughs]

Garry Ridge 49:30 I like them every day. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 49:31 And it's the same.

Garry Ridge 49:32 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 49:32 You don't have to like every day at work.

Garry Ridge 49:33 Yes.

Simon Sinek 49:34 But you do get to love every day at work.

Garry Ridge 49:35 Yeah, and you know, I, I had bad days.

Simon Sinek 49:38 Yeah, of course. We all do.

Garry Ridge 49:39 You know? We all do.

Simon Sinek 49:40 Days I do not wanna come to work and I hate everybody around me. [laughs]

Garry Ridge 49:43 [laughs] Well, yeah, n- I don't know if I got that far. But, but, you know, I, I-

Simon Sinek 49:47 [laughs]

Garry Ridge 49:47 It's, this is, I don't want people to think that this was a bed of, you know, sweet roses.

Simon Sinek 49:52 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 49:52 We went through some tough times. You know, we went through the, the Great Recession, had... We went through managing through COVID. We went through oil going from $25 a barrel to $125 a barrel. We went through upheavals in A- we had all that. But all along the way-

Simon Sinek 50:09 Yeah

Garry Ridge 50:10 ... we kept our focus, we kept our values-

Simon Sinek 50:14 The one thing that was consistent

Garry Ridge 50:16 ... and our purpose

Simon Sinek 50:16 ... was, was the internal.

Garry Ridge 50:18 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 50:18 Because you, the external-

Garry Ridge 50:19 We couldn't do

Simon Sinek 50:20 ... you can't control. You can o- very often you can only react.

Garry Ridge 50:23 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 50:23 But the one thing that has the consistency, as you said, you, you can't have consistent numbers because you're not in total control of the numbers.

Garry Ridge 50:30 Correct.

Simon Sinek 50:30 If the raw materials skyrocket, it's gonna affect your numbers.

Garry Ridge 50:33 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 50:34 If there's a competitive threat and they're doing a good job on their marketing or having some promotion-

Garry Ridge 50:38 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 50:38 ... or, it's gonna affect your numbers. Like, we don't actually have total control of the numbers, and I think it's funny when companies say, "We will hit this number on this date at this time."

Garry Ridge 50:45 [laughs] How?

Simon Sinek 50:45 I'm like, how? You know?

Garry Ridge 50:47 There's gotta be some fiddly, uh, diddly going on there.

Simon Sinek 50:49 There's... Exactly. That's actually impossible.

Garry Ridge 50:50 Yeah. Mm.

Simon Sinek 50:51 But the one thing that we can control every single day is the internal, because that is actually under our control.

Garry Ridge 50:55 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 50:56 I learn from you every time I talk to you. I am so grateful you came in. This was like, this was therapy.

Garry Ridge 51:01 Well, you know, I-

Simon Sinek 51:02 It was so good

Garry Ridge 51:02 ... you don't know how much I owe you, because I've learned so much from you over time, and-

Simon Sinek 51:06 Well, that's humbling

Garry Ridge 51:07 ... really, I really appreciate it, and-

Simon Sinek 51:08 That's humbling

Garry Ridge 51:09 ... you know, it's great that you're out, out there doing what you do, 'cause we, we need it, Simon. I, we really do.

Simon Sinek 51:14 You and I both believe in world peace, you know? And it sounds corny to say, and world peace is very simple, which is if, if people enjoy going to work, they're happier people. And happier people come home happier-

Garry Ridge 51:27 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 51:27 ... and they treat their kids better-

Garry Ridge 51:28 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 51:28 ... and they treat their spouse better.

Garry Ridge 51:30 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 51:30 And when the kids feel good because mom or dad are happy, and the spouse feels good because husband or wife is happy, they'll treat their friends and their colleagues-

Garry Ridge 51:39 Yeah

Simon Sinek 51:39 ... and their neighbors-

Garry Ridge 51:40 Yeah

Simon Sinek 51:41 ... better.

Garry Ridge 51:41 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 51:41 And then those people will be like, "Oh, how nice that they've treated me better. I'm gonna treat people better." And before you know it, the ripple spread and you have world peace.

Garry Ridge 51:47 Absolutely.

Simon Sinek 51:47 [laughs]

Garry Ridge 51:48 It's, duh. You know, it's-

Simon Sinek 51:50 And that's actually how human nature works.

Garry Ridge 51:52 Right.

Simon Sinek 51:52 You know, we actually are influenced by, by others.

Garry Ridge 51:55 Right.

Simon Sinek 51:55 You know, if somebody yells at you or flips you off, you know, we've all had it. Somebody cuts you off and flips you off in the car, you are pissed off for the next 20 minutes talking about them. You get out of the car and you start talking about the person who cut you off and flipped you off. Like, it does carry, you know?

Garry Ridge 52:10 It's amazing how many nice rooms I've got at a Marriott hotel when I've walked in at 11:00 at night and said to the person behind the reception, "I am so grateful you're here tonight."

Simon Sinek 52:22 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 52:23 "Thank you for waiting for me."

Simon Sinek 52:24 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 52:25 "Oh, by the way, Mr. Ridge, we have you an upgrade tonight."

Simon Sinek 52:27 "We, here's your free upgrade." [laughs]

Garry Ridge 52:28 Exactly. [laughs] But, you know, I, but, but sincerely, I'm happy they're there.

Simon Sinek 52:33 No, no. I, I get it.

Garry Ridge 52:33 You know, we, we've dragged our butt across some nation and fl- been on planes and whatever.

Simon Sinek 52:38 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 52:39 And you see people treating people badly-

Simon Sinek 52:42 Yeah

Garry Ridge 52:42 ... and you wonder why they are getting treated badly.

Simon Sinek 52:45 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 52:45 Duh.

Simon Sinek 52:46 And if a company wants to put pressure on employees to hit certain numbers, I mean, sure, you can create some sort of incentive structure that's based solely on numbers, and guess what people focus on? The short-term personal gain that you've incentivized.

Garry Ridge 52:57 And they'll do whatever they need to do to get it, and that usually means stepping on people, kicking people, get out of the way.

Simon Sinek 53:02 Sometimes unethical-

Garry Ridge 53:03 And-

Simon Sinek 53:03 ... most extreme, illegal. Yeah.

Garry Ridge 53:04 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 53:05 Um, and we see it all the time.

Garry Ridge 53:06 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 53:06 And you show me any company that's acted very unethically and, and has exhibited ethical fading, almost every single time I will show you a company with a broken culture and a misaligned incentive structure. Almost every time.

Garry Ridge 53:17 The other thing that's really interesting in the work that I'm doing now, when I look at compensation costs-

Simon Sinek 53:21 Yeah

Garry Ridge 53:22 ... compensation costs are always higher in organizations with crappy cultures.

Simon Sinek 53:27 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 53:28 Because you can pay anybody to stay anywhere and be treated badly.

Simon Sinek 53:32 [laughs] It's true. Everybody's got a price.

Garry Ridge 53:33 Everybody's got a price.

Simon Sinek 53:34 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 53:35 But if you wanna have a compensation structure that allows you to keep people in your organization in good and bad times-

Simon Sinek 53:43 Yeah

Garry Ridge 53:43 ... culture plays hugely into it.

Simon Sinek 53:46 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 53:46 Hugely.

Simon Sinek 53:46 So even the most cynical should say, "You know, maybe I should invest in this for totally selfish reasons that, you know, it'll help me weather difficult storms."

Garry Ridge 53:54 Well, unless you believe-

Simon Sinek 53:55 And then, and then, but then, then I think then you learn because you start to see it and enjoy it.

Garry Ridge 53:59 Right.

Simon Sinek 53:59 You know? I've seen that happen, too-

Garry Ridge 54:01 Yeah

Simon Sinek 54:01 ... which is people are like, "Ugh, I guess I'll do this," and they, they become converted.

Garry Ridge 54:04 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 54:04 Just like you converted those analysts.

Garry Ridge 54:06 Right.

Simon Sinek 54:06 You know, it's, this is David Marquet's work, which is-

Garry Ridge 54:09 Oh, yeah

Simon Sinek 54:10 ... he turns-

Garry Ridge 54:10 Turn the boat around

Simon Sinek 54:11 ... turn the ship around-

Garry Ridge 54:11 Turn the ship around

Simon Sinek 54:12 ... which is he, he, he talks about, you know, we get it wrong in how we change behavior. We think we have to explain to people why it matters and hope that their behavior changes. You know, so fir- first they have to get it, then they'll change their behavior. And what he learned is you force the change in behavior, and then people get it.

Garry Ridge 54:27 Mm.

Simon Sinek 54:27 And then people go, "Oh." Which is kind of what you did at WD-40, which is like, let's all be coaches. Congratulations, I know you don't care, but I'm gonna teach you how to be a coach-

Garry Ridge 54:35 Right

Simon Sinek 54:36 ... and I'm gonna force you to be a coach, and I'm gonna incentivize you to be a coach.

Garry Ridge 54:38 And now I like being a coach.

Simon Sinek 54:39 And now I like being a coach.

Garry Ridge 54:40 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 54:40 And I'm not gonna convince you the importance-

Garry Ridge 54:42 Yeah

Simon Sinek 54:42 ... of being a coach and then hopefully you'll sign up for the, for the learning.

Garry Ridge 54:44 Well, it then goes back to 97% of the people respect their coach. Now, that, th- that was the word in the survey. If you were to change that question, a word would be, do you respect your manager?

Simon Sinek 54:56 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 54:56 And I would suggest you would get 10% of people who would say they do.

Simon Sinek 55:00 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 55:00 But because they're acting as a coach-

Simon Sinek 55:03 Yeah

Garry Ridge 55:03 ... you know, and most people leave jobs 'cause they hate their boss.

Simon Sinek 55:06 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 55:06 Well, because the boss is being-

Simon Sinek 55:08 A boss

Garry Ridge 55:08 ... a boss.

Simon Sinek 55:09 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 55:09 He's being a soul-sucking s- leader-

Simon Sinek 55:11 Yeah

Garry Ridge 55:11 ... unfortunately.

Simon Sinek 55:12 Yeah. B- Bob Chapman talks about this, our mutual-

Garry Ridge 55:14 Yeah

Simon Sinek 55:14 ... friend Bob Chapman from Barry-Wehmiller. He talks about this, which is nobody comes to work to be managed. Nobody wants to be managed, but we all want to be led.

Garry Ridge 55:21 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 55:22 You know?

Garry Ridge 55:22 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 55:23 Uh, and, and we would all want to be coached, too.

Garry Ridge 55:25 I love what he says, "Anybody who comes to work every day is someone's precious husband, wife, sister, or brother."

Simon Sinek 55:30 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 55:30 You know?

Simon Sinek 55:30 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 55:31 And that's so true.

Simon Sinek 55:32 And I think it's worth pointing out, all of these leaders that I get to write about, and some of them I get to meet, you know, um, they weren't always this way.

Garry Ridge 55:39 Mm-mm.

Simon Sinek 55:39 Bob-

Garry Ridge 55:39 I wasn't

Simon Sinek 55:40 ... Bob wasn't. He ran it by the, by the books.

Garry Ridge 55:43 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 55:43 He was a, he's a trained accountant.

Garry Ridge 55:44 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 55:44 People were line items on a spreadsheet.

Garry Ridge 55:46 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 55:46 Do your job, you get to stay on the spreadsheet. Don't do your job, you get to leave the spreadsheet.

Garry Ridge 55:49 Right.

Simon Sinek 55:50 I mean, that was-

Garry Ridge 55:50 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 55:51 And he had a, he had an epiphany, had a conversion.

Garry Ridge 55:54 Yep.

Simon Sinek 55:54 Um, I-

Garry Ridge 55:55 It was the same, be brief, be bright, be gone.

Simon Sinek 55:57 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 55:57 And that wasn't gonna work.

Simon Sinek 55:58 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 55:59 You know, when I did my DiSC profile, I hated what I was told I was. So I had to move from a turbo D to an I, which was, you know, I, relationships really matter. And it took me time.

Simon Sinek 56:10 Yeah.

Garry Ridge 56:10 It took me time to really get comfortable with that.

Simon Sinek 56:12 And I think that goes right back to where we started, which is if you wanna be the leader you wish you had, you actually start with you.

Garry Ridge 56:18 Yeah. It all starts with you.

Simon Sinek 56:20 It all starts with you. Garry, I love talking to you. Thank you so much for coming in. Such a treat. Um, these are always frustrating conversations with me because I'd like to go for another four hours.

Garry Ridge 56:28 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 56:29 Um, but this is the best. Thank you.

Garry Ridge 56:32 Thank you, Simon. It's been a great pleasure.

Simon Sinek 56:33 [upbeat music] A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbinus, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts, and if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsinek.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.