Simon SinekThe Culture That Converts Even the Biggest Cynics with former WD-40 CEO Garry Ridge
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 11,802 words- 0:00 – 3:07
From “be brief, be bright, be gone” to building a beloved culture at WD-40
- GRGarry Ridge
You know, I used to introduce myself, [laughs] "G'day, I'm Garry Ridge. I'm the consciously incompetent, probably wrong and roughly right, chairman and CEO of WD-40 Company, and I need all the help I can get."
- SSSimon Sinek
Garry Ridge is the embodiment of what it means to be a great CEO. That he took the time to write down how he learned to lead, with such humility I might add, means that we all get to learn how to lead like him, and that can only be a good thing, said me on the back of Garry's new book, Any Dumb Ass Can Do It. And having him on this podcast was such a treat. I've known Garry for a bunch of years, and I have learned so much from him, and today was no exception. We talked about some of the specific things he did that took WD-40, yes, WD-40, from a successful company to a wildly successful company. And it's worth noting, it is a remarkable place to work. People love working there, and the results prove it. If you're a senior leader that wants to build a great corporate culture, this conversation is absolutely essential listening. And for everyone else who wants to work in a culture where we feel loved and seen and love coming to work, well, it's also essential, because we have to know what a great culture looks like if we're gonna demand that somebody build it for us. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] This episode is sponsored by Porsche and their new Macan, which is actually my car. I had it before they called. It's actually my car, and I love it. You know I quote you all the time, right?
- GRGarry Ridge
I believe so.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- GRGarry Ridge
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
There, there's a story you told me that I have told so many times of, uh, uh, of a time where you were on an analyst's call and the analyst said to you, "Garry, you missed your numbers." You know what, you know the story. And you said, "No, I didn't. I missed your numbers."
- GRGarry Ridge
I missed your number.
- SSSimon Sinek
You ran a public company for m- how many years?
- GRGarry Ridge
25.
- SSSimon Sinek
25 years you ran WD-40, and it, public company, but you ran it in the way public companies should be run, which is not beholden to the shareholders, but rather taking care of your employees and taking care of your customers. That was how you ran this company. And I love using WD-40 as an example because it's not glamorous. It's not tech. It's basically a one-product company. I know you have line extensions, but it's basically a one-product company. And I remember when I first visited your offices, if I dare say, it was a bit dumpy.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it defied all of the conventional wisdoms of what great culture is, which is flat screen TVs, free food, you know, all of this stuff. It was a dumpy office, and morale was high, and people loved each other, and it was home to them.
- GRGarry Ridge
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And this is one of the reasons I love you as a leader and one of the reasons I love WD-40 as an example, which is it defies all of the conventional wisdoms of what a lot of modern leaders think makes a great company, especially young leaders.
- GRGarry Ridge
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Where do you learn that?
- 3:07 – 5:43
A CEO goes back to school: meeting Ken Blanchard and learning servant leadership
- GRGarry Ridge
Well, it went back to when I first met Ken Blanchard. You know, I became CEO in 1997, and the goal was to take the blue and yellow can with the little red top to the world, and I kind of knew with help of friends and people in the organization how to market the product.
- SSSimon Sinek
Were you, were you an employee first or you came in as a C- as, to be CEO?
- GRGarry Ridge
No, I'd been with the company 10 years before that.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay.
- GRGarry Ridge
I started in Australia-
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay
- GRGarry Ridge
... in 1987.
- SSSimon Sinek
Got it.
- GRGarry Ridge
They asked me to move to the US in 1994. In 1997, the CEO retired, and for my sins, I got to be CEO. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- GRGarry Ridge
I knew how to do that, but m- what was on my mind, Simon, was we were gonna have a company that the sun would never set on.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
How were we going to create an environment where people knew and felt like they belonged, knew what they did mattered and made a difference, could make choices, and there was a low level of fear?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
And I didn't know how to do it. And then I met one of our dear friends, Dr. Ken Blanchard.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
I went back to school. I was already CEO.
- SSSimon Sinek
Who, who wrote The One Minute Manager.
- GRGarry Ridge
Who wrote-
- SSSimon Sinek
And many other books
- GRGarry Ridge
... and many others.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
And I went back to school, and he was one of my professors, and, uh, I learnt the-
- SSSimon Sinek
When you say you went back to school figuratively.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
I, I en- enrolled in a master's degree at USD.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, oh, so you actually went back to school.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, okay.
- 5:43 – 8:53
The first transformation is personal: changing the CEO’s behaviors
- GRGarry Ridge
Well, first I had to change myself.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
And you know, the first part of that course I did was understanding who you are as a leader. And now that I'm refired, not retired-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- GRGarry Ridge
... I coach CEOs. And one of the things that I think is amazing is they don't realize how their behavior impacts the people around them. Because I don't think most CEOs get up every day, Simon, and say, "I'm gonna go to work today and be a jerk."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- GRGarry Ridge
I don't think they do that. But you're right. They're looking at successful people who have huge egos, little empathy, wanna micromanage, think they have all the answers, don't really value learning, and they think that's the way to go. So the first thing was to learn who I was.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
And, you know, I had to change. You know, I, I walked around for, I don't know, months with praise somebody written on my hand because I had to get comfortable with the fact that it wasn't about me. It was about the people I had the privilege to lead.
- SSSimon Sinek
What kind of leader were you b- prior?
- GRGarry Ridge
Be brief, be bright, be gone. That was me.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
I was a turbo D on the DiSC scale. You know, I, I really thought that I had to be command and control, and I pretty soon learned that my job was not to command and control.
- SSSimon Sinek
I'll tell you a story. I'll leave the name out. I met this leader who, I met him at a conference, and he was asked to introduce me. And he was like, uh, he was like doing his best impression of General Patton.
- GRGarry Ridge
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? He was c- walking up and down the stage, talking like this and real loud and, you know, be brief, be, you know, what you said, you know? And, uh, he introduces me, and I'm, and I'm literally thinking to myself, "What's with the General Patton impression?" You know? I go up, I do my thing, and then when we, when I'm off the stage, he and I go off and we're just by ourselves walking down the hallway leaving the conference. And he was humble and curious-
- GRGarry Ridge
Hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... and, and, and asking me questions and, and really, really smart, you know? And I'm thinking to myself, "You're amazing. What's with that?" And you realize that wherever it came from in his career, he had made the same decision that, "For my credibility, I've gotta be strong. I've gotta be commanding. That way people will see me as a leader," blah, blah, blah. And it kept working, right? He kept getting promoting through his career. He wasn't, he was the number two person at the time and, um, and he made it to the big job. And I thought to myself, "This is so exciting. Finally, he got the job. He'll now relax, be his wonderful, fantastic, curious, inspiring self," and he didn't.
- GRGarry Ridge
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
He made it to the top job, and he still kept up this weird General Patton thing, and it, you know, he was effective and smart, but I don't think he commanded the kind of loyalty he could've or the kind of inspiration that he could've or the kind of innovation that he could've. If it keeps working to the point you get to CEO, which is exactly what happened to you, this, you described yourself as not the leader you wanted to be, but it kept working.
- GRGarry Ridge
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
What was it that you finally make it to the big job, you'd think, "Well, it's gotten me here. I'm just gonna keep going"? What, what was it that you said to yourself, "No, [laughs] now is the time to change"?
- 8:53 – 12:31
The wake-up call: purpose, fear reduction, and credibility through authenticity
- GRGarry Ridge
You know, it's interesting. I was on a flight from Los Angeles to Sydney, and as you do when you fly, you take stuff to read. And I read two things. I read a quote that's associated to the Dalai Lama, "Our purpose in life is to make people happy. If we can't make them happy, at least don't hurt them." And then I read a second quote from Aristotle that says, "Pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work." And what I thought around me was, "Why aren't people enjoying their, what they're doing?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
And it really became clear to me it w- that it was about the leadership. You know, how did we really create this atmosphere where people were gonna belong?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
And, you know, I learnt from people like you, like Ken, and others that I was listening to all you guys, what you were preaching, and I'm thinking, "This has to work. Why are these smart guys talking about it if it doesn't?" Well, I was fortunate that I could actually try it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- GRGarry Ridge
So we came up with a truly great purpose in the organization. Our purpose was to create positive, lasting memories. That was to be the purpose of the organization. So what changed in my mind was I couldn't do this alone, and if we were gonna expand to 176 countries around the world, which we did, and if the sun was never gonna set on the people in the organization, I had to make sure that they were in envi- in an environment where they felt safe enough to make decisions and be brave. Because this is simple, but it's not easy-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- GRGarry Ridge
... and time is not your friend.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
And, you know, you've gotta put the platform in place. I love one of the quotes you had in your book where it says, "Culture equals values plus behavior."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
Well, I, I took it and I adapted it, and I said, "Culture equals values plus behavior times consistency."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- GRGarry Ridge
Because a lot of people think that building great-
- SSSimon Sinek
That's true
- GRGarry Ridge
... cultures in organizations is fairy dust.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- GRGarry Ridge
You sprinkle a little fairy dust on the organization, you bring in one training program, slap a few people around the head, tell them to behave differently and go away, and things will change.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
They don't.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
This has to be something you work on day after day after day. So I really decided that I needed to change because I wasn't capable of being the leader I wanted to be leading the way I was in the be brief, be bright, be gone area. And Simon, to be honest, it was scary-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- GRGarry Ridge
... 'cause I had to start saying, "I don't know." You know, I used to introduce myself, [laughs] "G'day. I'm Garry Ridge. I'm the consciously incompetent, probably wrong and roughly right, chairman and CEO of WD-40 Company, and I need all the help I can get." Now, it's interesting when you ask people for help, and you do it sincerely, how much help you get.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. The courage, 'cause it's easier to do the other. It's easier to put on the, the General Patton act. It's easier to, to be the strong, commanding, especially if you make it to that level, you have some degree of ambition and ego. You don't get there without it. It's the easier option. To say, "I don't know," as you said, is very, very scary for somebody who's supposed to represent... I mean, we all think our credibility comes from our intelligence or our ability to make good decisions, but it, it doesn't. So it raises the question then, where does the credibility of a leader come from?
- GRGarry Ridge
Authenticity
- SSSimon Sinek
And what does that mean in a modern context?
- GRGarry Ridge
I think it means-
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause it's an overused term.
- 12:31 – 13:18
Designing culture into the environment: no CEO privilege, no corporate royalty
- GRGarry Ridge
I say great leaders spend a lot of time in the stinky locker room, and unfortunately, a lot of leaders think they're corporate royalty. You know, uh, you saw our, our offices and then you saw our new offices as well.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
You know, I remember having a fight basically with our architect when we were designing our new office. I said, "My office is to be 10 by 12." And the plans came back four times with a bigger office for me. They said, "No, you're the CEO. You've got to have a bigger office." I said, "No, I don't. We're not gonna have bigger offices. We're not gonna have private parking spaces. We're going to have a place where people feel comfortable that we are all there with one thing in mind, and that's to help each other succeed."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- GRGarry Ridge
That's why we, I, I called us a tribe, not a team.
- 13:18 – 15:11
Why “tribe” works better than “family” or “team” for modern organizations
- SSSimon Sinek
I want to go down that path 'cause I find that really interesting. One of the things that I've changed in the way I talk about companies and, and teams since I, since I started, um, is, is how to refer to the, the group, right? And I used to say family. We're like a family. And one is confronted with the reality of a business, which is if it's a family, no one ever can ever be removed. No one can ever graduate to go work for another company, you know? And the reality is, a- and I think this is the hardest lesson for a leader to learn, and it's one of the reasons why not everybody's qualified to be a leader. I hate to say it. Because the, one of the hardest lessons a leader learns is I have to be loyal to the group before I'm loyal to an individual.
- GRGarry Ridge
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, I can sacrifice one person to save the group, but I cannot sacrifice the group to save one person, which is an excruciating lesson to learn.
- GRGarry Ridge
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And we try hard never to get to that point, but the reality is that's what it is.
- GRGarry Ridge
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so I'm confronted with, well, that's not family then, is it? You know? Because family, it's forever.
- GRGarry Ridge
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so then, you know, you start adopting team. You know, we're, we're a great team, and you can trade players out, and you can bring players in, and players can go away. But it, even that team is very, for me, it's taken from, from the finite game.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's taken from this is winning and losing.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm gonna put a team together for the transaction of this season, and then I'm gonna change my mind next season. And I, I don't like that either. It's, it's also wholly imperfect. Your use of the word tribe I think captures exactly what we're trying to do, which is the, the loyalty and love we have for the family, but the infiniteness of the team that, as you keep saying, you know, the, we're, this is, this is an ever-burning light. This, we want to keep this going forever. When, when did you discover the word tribe as being the perfect articulation of what a company should feel like and be like?
- 15:11 – 17:42
The tribal leader’s job: learners, teachers, and a future-focused just cause
- GRGarry Ridge
Well, when I think about a tribal leader-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- GRGarry Ridge
... if you go back and you were to look at tribal leaders from the beginning of mankind-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- GRGarry Ridge
... what was the responsibility of a tribal leader? To be a learner and a teacher. What's the responsibility of a leader of an organization? To be an ever-learner and ever-teacher.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
Because if we are not learning what we need to learn and teaching what we need to teach to the-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- GRGarry Ridge
... tribe members, the tribe's gonna go extinct.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
And then we had a just cause. Our just cause was a group of people that come together to protect and feed each other.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
That was our just cause-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- GRGarry Ridge
... as a tribe.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
So a tribe is not referring to any indigenous group.
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure.
- GRGarry Ridge
It's referring to where we all started from mankind. And then if you think about attributes of a tribe, a tribe has values. So I could talk about values. A tribe has people within it that have specialized skills. So everyone in the organization has something to give. They're warriors, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
They're, they're there to, to protect and feed each other.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
There's a place of community, and they love to celebrate. So I, I was able to look at these attributes and say, "If you're a member of our tri- our tribe, you'll be a forever learner and ever teacher. We're gonna have values. We're gonna respect everybody in there. And the other thing we're gonna do is we're gonna be future focused."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
Because if a tribe leader is not future focused, and they have put their tribe next to a lake that dries up, the, the tribe will have nothing to drink and they will die.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- GRGarry Ridge
So we had to be always looking to the future. So, but the number one essence, Simon, was we are learners and teachers.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
We're forever learners, forever teachers.
- SSSimon Sinek
By the way, that's magical. Um, and as you said, a, a tribal leader has a responsibility for the protection and preservation of the, of the tribe, and so money is important in an organization because that's the lake. That's the fuel. That's the sustenance, and if the money dries up, the tribe dies.
- 17:42 – 21:28
Proving it’s not “soft”: WD-40’s performance growth and scale
- SSSimon Sinek
It's rather nice to have. So let's talk about the performance of WD-40.
- GRGarry Ridge
Sure.
- SSSimon Sinek
How big was WD-40 when, when you came in?
- GRGarry Ridge
Uh, market cap about 300 million.
- SSSimon Sinek
And when you left?
- GRGarry Ridge
3.6 billion.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay. Uh, stock price?
- GRGarry Ridge
Oh, when I started, $18. Mm, 260.
- SSSimon Sinek
And how many countries were you in when you started?
- GRGarry Ridge
70.
- SSSimon Sinek
And you had left?
- GRGarry Ridge
176.
- SSSimon Sinek
So it's worth noting. [laughs]
- GRGarry Ridge
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
And it's very important to recognize that basically one product company, yes, there are line extensions, that there are copycat brandsRight?
- GRGarry Ridge
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
Some of them have decent product.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's, you know, it's, it's fair to say.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
And yet WD-40 has global recognition-
- GRGarry Ridge
Yep
- SSSimon Sinek
... brand preference.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
I don't know what your marketing budgets are, but, like, I don't think I've ever seen a WD-40 ad.
- GRGarry Ridge
Probably. Well, we, you, we're probably not-
- SSSimon Sinek
Probably not, not to me [laughs]
- GRGarry Ridge
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Not to you. I do have a can of WD-40.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yeah.
- 21:28 – 24:48
Engagement math: ‘Will of the people × strategy = outcome’
- GRGarry Ridge
It is, and there's a formula.
- SSSimon Sinek
Go on.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yeah. So you and I, Simon, could write a really nice strategic plan, right? We'll write a nice strategic plan. We'll take it along to some smart professor and say, "Mark up our strategic plan."
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- GRGarry Ridge
"Great strategic plan, you guys. 70 out of 100."
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- GRGarry Ridge
But if 30% of the people go to work every day passionately executing against that strategic plan-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- GRGarry Ridge
... 30 times 70 is a number. But if 80 or 90% of the people in the organization go to work every day and passionately executing against that strategic plan, 80 times 70 is a much bigger number.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh.
- GRGarry Ridge
So the formula is very simple.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
The will of the people times the strategy equals the outcome. Most organizations spend a disproportionate amount of their time on strategy and execution instead of people, purpose, values, and learning. But if you spend a good time on people, purpose, values, and learning, you raise the engagement of the people so you have more people enthusiastically, passionately getting up every day, executing your strategic plan. Oh, duh.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- GRGarry Ridge
It is that freaking simple, Simon.
- SSSimon Sinek
But it... Okay, I'm gonna... I wanna sta- say it again because I think it's so clever, which is there's no such thing as a perfect strategic plan, and we obsess about the strategic plan, and I've definitely been guilty of tweaking the plan, tweaking the plan, tweaking the plan. It's always getting better, and we forget that you can have a, an imperfect plan-
- GRGarry Ridge
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is fine, a 70% good plan-
- GRGarry Ridge
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is executable.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, it's a 70% good plan with 30% passion is a, is a very different outcome than 80% passion.
- GRGarry Ridge
Absolutely.
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause at least there's consistency of the 70% plan done with, done with, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, purpose and, and conscientiousness. So good.
- GRGarry Ridge
You know, I was talking to a CEO-
- SSSimon Sinek
So good
- GRGarry Ridge
... the other day, and we were talking about the, you know, the reason why investing in building a great culture is so important. And I... You know, he was going, "No, no, no, no, no." I said, "Look, I can call BS on that."
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- GRGarry Ridge
I said, "I want you to go today, and I want you to tell everyone in your organization to stay home for a month and do nothing. What do you think the outcome will be?" He said, "We'll, w- we'll be destroyed." So I said, "Why are you letting 70% of your people come to work every day and sit and quit? Because you've created this stinky culture where they don't feel like they belong, they don't feel like they matter, they can't make choices, and they have a whole bunch of fear instead of learning, and the people that are leading them are managers instead of coaches." You know, you walk into the first day of your job, Simon. I come up to you, say, "Good, g'day, Simon. Welcome to the company. I'm your manager." What happens if you walk in and say, "G'day, Simon. I'm your coach"?I know what it takes to win a game here. I'm gonna stand on the sideline and watch you play. I'm never gonna run on the field and take the ball from you. I'm never gonna go to the podium and take the prize away from you. And I'm gonna spend a lot of time in the stinky locker room with you, Simon, because I only have one goal, to help you step into the best version of your personal self. 'Cause I know, I know you've got it in you, and I just wanna see you win.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh my God, where do I sign up?
- 24:48 – 26:54
Replace ‘manager’ with ‘coach’: defining an A and helping people win
- SSSimon Sinek
One of the things that WD-40 does is when you get a promotion, and I think throughout your tenure, but when you get a promotion to a managerial position, you offer teaching to those people-
- GRGarry Ridge
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... so they know how to coach. 'Cause we don't expect people to know how to coach. And it goes back to what we said before, which is we don't expect people to know how to lead. We don't teach them how to lead. And by changing the terminology, I think, because most people would be insecure to say, "I don't know how to lead. Give me the job." But I think people would be very comfortable saying, "No idea how to coach, but I'd love to learn." The language is a lower, is a lower bar. And I, and I... It's a very clever thing. And so I know you teach people how to coach.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yeah. Well, we actually changed, we took out the word manager.
- SSSimon Sinek
So it doesn't exist in the company.
- GRGarry Ridge
Was coach.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- GRGarry Ridge
So if you, if I had the privilege of leading you, I was your coach.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
And it's amazing, once you change the description and can describe what the behavior should be-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- GRGarry Ridge
... so I would say, "You're a coach, and here's what a coach is all about," what I just shared with you a few minutes ago.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- GRGarry Ridge
And your job is to coach. And we used to mandate that at least every 90 days, our coaches would sit down with those that have the privilege to lead and talk about, "What's getting in your way? How are you? Are you okay?" You know, "What is it that I need to do to help you succeed? How do you think you're succeeding against our goals?" You know the book I wrote with Ken Blanchard called Helping People Win at Work. The tie line was, "I'm not here to mark your paper, I'm here to help you get an A."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
So our job as coaches-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- GRGarry Ridge
... was to define what an A looks like-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- GRGarry Ridge
... 'cause that's very important. Most people let people down because they don't clearly define if an A walked in the door today, what it would look like.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
After defining that, my role as a coach is to help you get the A.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
And that's what we used to sit down and talk about all the time. Unfortunately, a lot of people, a lot of leaders, and well, managers, protect their own comfort zone at the expense of other people's development.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
That's where the bravery comes in. And it normally happens because there's not clarity around what do we expect from each other.
- 26:54 – 30:55
Handling cynicism and misfit behaviors: values-based redirection and ‘vote off the island’
- SSSimon Sinek
Can you tell me a story of somebody who came to the company? They heard the hype, they met the people, the interviews I'm sure were quite different and quite wonderful. The company liked them, they offered them a job. They liked the company, they said yes. Um, but they brought bad habits. They, once bitten, twice shy. They'd worked for some people who said all the right things, and in good times they might have even done it, but as soon as a little stress was added to the system, you know, micromanagement showed up, regression showed up, you know, uh, removing accountability showed up, removing agency showed up. Somebody who's cynical, who... H- how did you, like, how do you treat that person?
- GRGarry Ridge
Yeah, I mean, you know, one [chuckles] of the things I used to do was about 90 days after someone joined the company, I'd go to them and say, "Did we lie to you?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
Around, you know, what we promised. And in every circumstance they said, "It's better than you ever described it."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
So, you know, we'd have people that would come in the company and they would go, "Oh, yeah, sure." But then it's up to us as leaders in the organization to help them understand what the key elements are of success within the organization. Interestingly enough, if they didn't fall into line, the tribe would vote them off the island.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
It wouldn't have to be us, you know? And I have shared people with competitors, there's no doubt about that.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- GRGarry Ridge
In the end, I want people to be happy in the organization.
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure.
- GRGarry Ridge
And if you're not happy, go somewhere else.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, of course.
- GRGarry Ridge
You know, it's... But the story that's really cool is when I talk about how in an organization you can use your values to really help redirect people. And this is a nearly true story. Names are changed to protect the innocent.
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure.
- GRGarry Ridge
We're in a meeting one morning, a group of leaders, and there's someone in the room that is sucking the energy out of the room. You've been in one of those meetings, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
100%.
- GRGarry Ridge
And our second value at the company was we value creating positive, lasting memories in all of our relationships. This person was not creating a positive, lasting memory. So what do you do as the leader? Well, you could ignore the behavior, which means the whole structure of the culture's gonna collapse. 'Cause everyone else in the room says, "Well, you may as well have that up on the wall, but you're never gonna act on it, right?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- GRGarry Ridge
You can stop the meeting immediately and say, "Simon, that behavior's unacceptable." Everybody else in the room says, "When am I gonna be publicly executed?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- GRGarry Ridge
So the meeting came to an end, and you recall our new building in San Diego.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- GRGarry Ridge
I w- walked out of the room, I said, I- I'll use Simon as the example, "Simon, let's go for a walk." So I walk out of the building and I look in a trash can, under a car, and behind a bush, and Simon says, "What the hell are you doing?" I said, "Simon, the you I know and love was not in that room today. What's on your mind? What's getting in your way? How can I help you?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- GRGarry Ridge
And Simon starts to talk. "Well, I had a bad morning. I kicked my foot on the bed, you know-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- GRGarry Ridge
... I spilled coffee, someone flipped me off." So it wasn't... But we were able to have that conversation. I said, "Well, Simon, you live our value of creating positive, lasting memories every day, and today was just one of those learning moments for you."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- GRGarry Ridge
"So I wanted to make sure you were aware of that." He said, "Geez, I'm sorry, Garry." We had a hug. He goes back into the office, visits a few people and says, "Hey, you know, that wasn't me." They say, "Are you okay?"
- 30:55 – 34:45
Generational expectations and the end of annual reviews: coaching in real time
- SSSimon Sinek
Have you noticed a difference in, in the younger generation of employees who came into WD-40? I mean, because every generation brings both the advantages and baggage of their generation, right? Not better or worse, just different. Our movement, if we can, uh, we, we are part of the same movement, even if companies don't believe in it and even if they don't follow it, they're all forced to have purpose statements on their website, which I see as a win.
- GRGarry Ridge
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
At least socially they have to keep up appearances for this thing that they don't-
- GRGarry Ridge
Sure
- SSSimon Sinek
... even believe it, right? Um, things like boundaries, things like mental health, these are kind of expected from this younger generation of the places they come to work. Can you talk about how, both the successes and the challenges you had of a younger generation coming into, into-
- GRGarry Ridge
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... into your culture?
- GRGarry Ridge
I think the older generation are the worst ones.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
Because the younger ones coming in are aligned with what you and I believe in, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
And I haven't met-
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, we've built our movement railing against the boomers. [laughs]
- GRGarry Ridge
Right. Yeah, yeah. But I, I haven't met a, a, a person, young, old, or even my dog-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- GRGarry Ridge
... who doesn't benefit by knowing they belong-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- GRGarry Ridge
... and they matter, so, and they want to learn.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
So I think the younger generations coming in, they're, they're ready to go as long as you are there to show them they belong and they matter.
- SSSimon Sinek
They have a cynicism too, right? Remember-
- GRGarry Ridge
They do
- SSSimon Sinek
... they grew up, they grew up in a world where-
- GRGarry Ridge
It was-
- SSSimon Sinek
... their parents were laid off. It's not a meritocracy. And so there's a reason why, you know, when you and I were young, uh, we believed that you work hard, you do the extra work, then you go to your boss and say, "Look at all what I've done. Give me the raise."
- GRGarry Ridge
Right, right.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the younger generation says, "Give me the raise-"
- GRGarry Ridge
Raise
- SSSimon Sinek
... "and you see what I'm gonna do." And that, that could be interpreted as entitlement. I understand it as they grew up in a world where there's no loyalty from the company, so get your money while you can because it, you may not last, right?
- GRGarry Ridge
Right.
- 34:45 – 42:10
Removing fear with ‘learning moments’: building consistency over years
- SSSimon Sinek
You're right. Uh, and, you, you know, you're challenging me. Here's my very real struggle. You know, we have a small company. Um, I agree with everything you've said. I don't do everything you say. And, uh, you know, I, I know that I can do better even using the language. We don't call our people coaches. I'm thinking maybe we should, you know? We don't use the term tribe. I'm thinking maybe we should. The annual reviews, we do do them even though we're not a fan of them. Uh, and the th- the, the, the idea of planning towards the future. We're getting better at helping people understand what an A looks like. You're challenging me to, to do the things that I know are important. Um, here's where I feel the very real strain, which is just time, which is energy, which is I feel pulled in every different direction. I can't do it all. How do I, how do I get all these things accomplished? How do I build this new plan to move forwards? How do I help all my people h- uh, uh, learn to coach somebody to get to an A? How do I define what the A is? I'm a little overwhelmed.
- GRGarry Ridge
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
The, I wanna do it all.
- GRGarry Ridge
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I'm a little overwhelmed.
- GRGarry Ridge
Well, imagine how efficient and how better the organization would be if you did it all.
- SSSimon Sinek
No, I get all that. You know? I mean, like, imagine how-
- GRGarry Ridge
How much time you would have
- SSSimon Sinek
... how much healthier I would be if I worked out every day and only ate celery.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, yeah, sure. You know, I know all that. I know all that. Unfortunately, you know, focusing on the urgent at the expense of the important is part of the, is part of the challenge of any leadership position.
- GRGarry Ridge
You're right. This is not easy, man.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so I just, I wanna know from your very real experience, I guess I'm answering my own question, which is you don't do it all at once. You pick one. You do that. You ask for help.
- GRGarry Ridge
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? Then you do the next one.
- GRGarry Ridge
Yeah, this took 25 years.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- GRGarry Ridge
You know? Well, it took about five years to gain momentum when I first started to implement a lot of this stuff.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right, five years to gain momentum, which means it wasn't even fully implemented or completed. It was momentum.
- GRGarry Ridge
Right. And then it becomes-
- SSSimon Sinek
So I have to give myself some grace that-
- GRGarry Ridge
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... this is an ongoing process-
- GRGarry Ridge
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... and it's not a finite game.
- GRGarry Ridge
You know, it's not fairy dust.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
You know?
- SSSimon Sinek
It takes work.
- GRGarry Ridge
You know, fundamental foundations, here they wereClearly defined purpose. Have we got it?
- 42:10 – 56:55
Culture under pressure: COVID trust, long-term investors, and the ripple effect to society
- GRGarry Ridge
I had a goal. I want to build an enduring company that I would be proud to pass on to others.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
And, and I think we kind of nearly got that. And, you know, I was very aware of the shareholder needs, and it's interesting, when I first started-
- SSSimon Sinek
But, but third, not first.
- GRGarry Ridge
Right. Well-
- SSSimon Sinek
Employee, customer
- GRGarry Ridge
... A, A plus B equals C.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- GRGarry Ridge
They, they're C. But I remember when I first started going to Wall Street, I'd take my investor relations deck, and the first five pages were always about culture. And I could see the analysts sitting across from me, their eyes are rolling, kind of saying to me, "Get o- get over that. Let's get to the numbers."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
It was very interesting in probably my last five years how engaged now they were becoming in a, a strong culture. In fact, we had one shareholder... that took a huge stake in the company. And I asked why. They said, "It's the culture."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
And they never talked to me about quarter-to-quarter earnings.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
They, they said, "Okay, you've gotta meet your goals over time," which we did.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
But, you know, one of my shareholders, I said to, I said to them once, "I'm not smart enough to run a company in 90-day intervals."
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- GRGarry Ridge
And this guy said, "I'm glad you're not dumb enough to try."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
Well, I am the dean of dumbassery, as you know.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
But, you know, it's like that wasn't what it's all about. We're gonna play the long game.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- GRGarry Ridge
And there's another thing that I found really interesting as we went through COVID. You know, it was in my last two years of being CEO, so it was an interesting time. But we got into COVID, and we'd just done our employee opinion survey feedback, and we had 93% employee engagement, 98% of people said they loved to work at the company, 97% said they respected their, their coach, who was their boss. So we get to January 2021, Simon, and you remember that time?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- GRGarry Ridge
The world was still topsy-turvy. There was no sign of, you know, a real vaccination. We were working hard to keep the tribe together. And I said to the folks, "We need to go out and do a, a pulse test, just see if w- we're still holding up." So we went and did a pulse test, and the numbers came back, and they were all pretty similar except for one that went up, and the one that went up was the answer to the question, "I'm excited about my place in the company's future." Now, this is January 2021.
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow.
- GRGarry Ridge
And I said, "There's something wrong with that data."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
Episode duration: 56:55
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode 1WQcbuG7kE4
