Simon SinekThe Man Who Proved Me Right with CEO Bob Chapman and the Barry-Wehmiller Team | A Bit of Optimism
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
70 min read · 13,798 words- 0:00 – 0:49
Truly Human Leadership: leadership as a calling, not a title
- SSSimon Sinek
I wish leaders took leadership as personally as you do. They see it as a rank or position. They see it as, as power and authority, but they don't take it as seriously as raising a child, and you take taking care of your people as seriously a- as taking care of your children. You deeply mean it, and you deeply feel it. I know people who turn it on and turn it off, and you can't turn it off. It's, it's core to who you are.
- BCBob Chapman
I always say, Simon, you can retire from a job, but you cannot retire from a calling.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
And when I e- look today-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... as we talk, the issues we face in the world, I see business as a source of destruction, creating economic value but not human value.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
And, and I feel a profound sense of responsibility. Change the way the world sees its, its responsibility to people they have the privilege of leading.
- 0:49 – 3:22
Simon’s premise meets proof: Barry-Wehmiller as a real-world model
- SSSimon Sinek
I imagine a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. When most people hear me say this, they think it's just the ramblings of a crazy idealist, and I would actually agree with them, until I met Bob Chapman. When I met Bob, he claimed that he'd actually built a company that embodied what I imagined, and to be honest, I didn't believe him. Again, I'm a crazy idealist, and what I imagine isn't supposed to exist in reality. It's supposed to be a striving, which is why I wanted to go see for myself. Bob has spent 50 years leading a company called Barry-Wehmiller, and what started as a humble Midwestern manufacturing company is now a $3.6 billion global powerhouse with nearly 12,000 team members. And what he's built is more than a successful company. It's a model of what any company could and should look like. His approach is called Truly Human Leadership, and it's a simple idea. Prioritize empathy, trust, and relationships to drive performance. These lessons work in any workplace and any industry, and it proves that how we treat people at work, how we care for people at work, can transform our families, our communities, and indeed, the world around us. I encouraged Bob to write it all down, and he did in his book Everybody Matters, which I am also proudly the publisher. And with a new edition recently released, Bob and I decided to take a trip back to the factory where he first showed me what he built. And we did something a little different in this episode. Yes, I sit down with my dear friend, and yes, there are tears of inspiration. And this time, you will also hear from some of the people whose lives have been touched by Bob's leadership style. They are proof that I can no longer be called a crazy idealist if what I imagine exists in reality. This is A Bit of Optimism. This episode is brought to you by Porsche and their new Macan. And when they reached out to us and asked if I would be comfortable to talk about the new Porsche Macan, well, let's just say I already owned one. That's
- 3:22 – 4:46
Inside BW Papersystems: order, pride, and the feel of a healthy workplace
- SSSimon Sinek
actually my car. So the simple answer was yes. I am someone who has lived my entire life around big cities, so visiting Phillips, Wisconsin, feels like I'm stepping into some alternative universe, into a place where life feels simpler, where spending time outdoors is better than any video game, and spending time with family and friends is the most valuable commodity there is. And work, at least for those who work at BW Papersystems, is now one of the essential parts of the good life. I remembered the first time I entered the plant. I was struck by the sheer size of the place, the high ceilings. It was like a huge indoor concrete football field lined with dozens of surprisingly clean machines, their movements and their hums giving the place life. This was now my fifth time visiting, and every single time I've come back here, I'm struck by how clean and organized and magical it all feels. There's no chaos. Everything is in its place. Everyone knows their role. It's a sight to behold. And like an orchestra, there's a symphony being played by this group of people with a common cause, but that doesn't mean that there's a lack of fun.
- 4:46 – 8:07
Amber’s story: why people go the extra mile when they feel respected
- AMAmber Meyers
I'm a mover and a groover. Like, I don't have it blaring right now, but when you, none of you are here, my radio is blaring.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's Amber Mayer. She's responsible for the small parts getting to where they need to be all over the factory.
- AMAmber Meyers
Sometimes there's parts all over this place, and I have to play, like, you can't find them. Well, guess what?
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- AMAmber Meyers
Here I am, Inspector Gadget, like-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- AMAmber Meyers
... running around. So I do put a lot of steps in a day. [laughs] I-
- SSSimon Sinek
Have you, do you, like, see your count?
- AMAmber Meyers
I'm-
- SSSimon Sinek
How many, how many have you done? How long did... What time did you, did you get in?
- AMAmber Meyers
6:00, so I'm at 9,345.
- SSSimon Sinek
You did 9,000 steps in three hours? Amber got a job here three years ago. Her husband decided to join her six months later. What did you do prior?
- AMAmber Meyers
I bartended/waitressed almost 20 years at pub and eatery right across the street here. So I actually dealt with a lot of these employees and stuff-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- AMAmber Meyers
... over there. So a lot of people knew me already before I even came here. So when it came to me applying here, they're like, "We want her. We know what kind of worker she is."
- SSSimon Sinek
And what did you know about them just from seeing them come through the bar and the restaurant? How did they talk about work? Because, you know, usually people come to a bar, they o-
- AMAmber Meyers
It's a great place to work.
- SSSimon Sinek
They order-
- AMAmber Meyers
It's not like-
- SSSimon Sinek
They order a double, and they-
- AMAmber Meyers
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
... they whine and complain about their bosses and-
- AMAmber Meyers
They very rarely had to order because I already knew what they wanted.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- AMAmber Meyers
The minute they sat down, like, a lot of these people, like I said, I waited on them a lot.But, um, they said that working for this place was unlike any other factory or facility that you'd ever worked for before. Mind you, back in the day, I did work for another factory, and this place is so much more laid back and easygoing than any places like that.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- AMAmber Meyers
Like, they're more focused on the people-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- AMAmber Meyers
... and, like, try to help us and take care of us and make sure that we are all happy here.
- SSSimon Sinek
How do you feel when you come to work compared to the way you would feel in other jobs when you would go to work?
- 8:07 – 11:07
Bob’s turning point: the wedding epiphany and the ‘precious child’ lens
- SSSimon Sinek
Bob Chapman was not always such a people-centric leader. Trained as an accountant, he used to run his business, well, like an accountant. People were line items. They were an expense to be managed. But something happened, something Bob did not expect. Many years ago, Bob and his wife were attending a wedding. They sat in the pews and watched the ceremony play out in front of them. The father of the bride walks his daughter down the aisle and ceremonially gives her away. Then he turns and sits down in his seat. Bob couldn't get this image out of his head. A father who would give his life for his precious child was giving her away to another man with the hope that he will take care of her with the same love that he did for so many years. That's when the epiphany struck. Every single person who works in Bob's company is someone's son or someone's daughter, that every single employee is someone's precious child who's now in Bob's care. It was this realization that set Bob on a journey that he did not expect to be on, one that would completely change the way he thinks about leadership. I'm so curious. Like, when, when you meet people and they say to you sort of, "Bob, what have you built? What's your business?" How do you talk about this?
- BCBob Chapman
Well, as you know, my first half of my career was very traditional about management, financial results, and growth, and through the series of revelations I went through where the lens through which I saw people, uh, 'cause I saw them as machinists, labor, union members, office people, people working the floor, all the traditional ways we talk about it, and the lens was reversed, and I saw them as somebody's precious child that's been placed in my care, everything changed for me. So the lens through which you see people affects the way you treat people, if you s- Because I was raised that you need people to achieve results, and when you don't need 'em anymore, you let them go. So the lens was clearly seen. If you see people as somebody's precious child, it profoundly affects y- your leadership style. My major responsibility to people in our company is to give them a grounded sense of hope for the future. They can trust in my care. I take that incredibly, profoundly seriously.
- SSSimon Sinek
Y- I know you and I have talked about this, about sort of how being a parent and being a leader are very similar. You talk about how being a parent, this child is brought into your life, and you're responsible for its growth and its upbringing, and in business, a person is brought into your office, and you're responsible for their growth and their upbringing. I appreciate that the lens for you changed, where you stopped seeing people as line items and, m- m- you know, mechanisms for your success, but rather that you are now responsible for their growth, their success, their happiness, their wellbeing. How did you make the conversion to be this heartfelt leader rather than just all head and all numbers?
- 11:07 – 12:54
Building a self-sustaining culture: Guiding Principles and BW University
- BCBob Chapman
It, it was a journey. When I realized that day at the wedding that, uh, all 12,000 of our team members around the world are not functions for my success, they're somebody's precious child who I have in my care for 40 hours a week, it changed everything. And, and a young man asked me about that time, "What is your greatest fear, Bob?" Now you know me, I'm an eternal optimist, and I had to stop and think, and I said, "My greatest fear is that we were blessed with the message of the way the world was intended to be, where people would genuinely care for each other, and it would be dependent upon me, and I would leave this company, this Earth, and what I had built would fall apart," 'cause I've seen that happen in churches and companies all over the world. So my greatest fear is that this blessing we've been given would not live beyond my time. So we began... I got a, had an incredible team around me called the Empowerment Team, you know some of those members, and I said, "How do great religions survive all time?" You know, this is how it evolved from great, uh, religions. And we said they articulate their beliefs, which we have in the Guiding Principles of Leadership, and then they have disciples who carry this message forward beyond the founder.'Cause it's not Bob. We all believe this is the way we should treat each other. So we said, "How are we gonna do that? We can't send people back to universities to learn to be truly human leaders." So this eclectic team for the whiteboard said, "Well, we're gonna create our own university," and they came up with three powerful classes: empathetic listening, which is the most powerful of all human skills, recognition and celebration, how do you let people know they matter in thoughtful, appropriate ways, and then culture of service, serving from it's all about me to actually care about you.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I know all of the classes that you teach are, uh, voluntary.
- BCBob Chapman
Right.
- 12:54 – 16:04
Empathetic listening: a teachable skill that heals work—and families
- SSSimon Sinek
People choose to go through it, and if they don't wanna go through it, then that's fine. Um, uh, but people can see the impact that it has on their coworkers, their, their colleagues and friends when they do go through these classes, which is why I know that there's a, uh, that there's a good long waiting list for people to get into your classes. What is, what are the core ideas that you teach in the empathetic listening class, for example?
- BCBob Chapman
Well, first of all, one of the things I've learned in teaching this is our team member, David Weinermiller, came up with the idea 'cause when, when somebody said, "If we're gonna start a university, we need to teach people to listen," I thought, "Why would we need to teach adults to listen? We all know how to listen," okay? That is the biggest revolution we realized, that we don't know how to listen. Okay? We, we're taught to speak, and we're taught to debate, but we're not taught to listen, okay? And the issues we, the divide we have in this country and the world is because we have a lot of people, "I'm right, and you're wrong." Okay? That's the world we see it, in politics, between our countries. And so this team came up with this idea that we would teach empathetic listening, okay? Which is, is the most foundational human skill that you can possibly have because it, y- you can, you validate the worth of others when you listen to them without judge. Not listening to debate, not listening to respond or judge, simply listening to validate the other person. It still amazed me, Simon. We were simply trying to change managers into leaders, into disciples, people who would carry this forward well beyond my time. 95% of the feedback, 95% was how it affected their marriage and their relationship with their children. And I thought, "What?" 'Cause I'm a, I was never told, never taught-
- SSSimon Sinek
You, you, this class was built to help people-
- BCBob Chapman
It was. It was
- SSSimon Sinek
... function better at work.
- BCBob Chapman
Yeah, right, right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right, that they would, that they would communicate better at work.
- BCBob Chapman
We had no idea.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right, right.
- BCBob Chapman
I thought when you hire somebody, the pay and the benefits was the exchange for their presence, and as long as you needed them, you would pay them, but when you didn't need them, you'd let them go. And this changed everything because what we, what we realized is what people wanna know is that they matter. Okay? We have a very prosperous economy, but we do not have a, a healthy economy because we have depression, anxiety, because people don't feel valued, they feel used. So this listening class still amazes me 20-some years later, that we've taught all over the world. This is not an American issue. This is a global issue. When you teach people to listen, they tell you the stories of how it improved their marriage and their relationship with the kids. So when we say what's wrong with kids today-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- BCBob Chapman
... I say, "Where did they come from?" It came from families where parents probably came home from a job where they don't feel valued. They don't pro- because of that stress and anxiety, whatever, and concern about their future, probably don't treat their spouse as well as possible. And what do our kids see? They see the behavior of our parents who don't know how to care for each other. They may be in love, but they don't know how to listen to each other. And so it was, it was unbelievable the feedback we got. If, if your listeners could have heard the thousands of people I've heard around the world who have taken this class, from India to Serbia to China, it's a universal truth. The healing power of listening is profound.
- 16:04 – 26:06
Randall’s transformation: from cynic and anger to leader and teacher
- SSSimon Sinek
Randall Fleming started on this floor 36 years ago, at the time, a young welder who self-identified as Darth Vader. Hey, Randall.
- RFRandall Fleming
Hello, Simon.
- SSSimon Sinek
Good to see you.
- RFRandall Fleming
Good to see you, sir.
- SSSimon Sinek
When Barry-Wehmiller acquired the company 25 years ago, Randall was not exactly thrilled. Just like I didn't believe Bob when I first met him, a lot of his new employees, like Randall, didn't believe him either. So Barry-Wehmiller buys the company.
- RFRandall Fleming
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, and they make all kinds of promises and statements, and you hear, you see this-
- RFRandall Fleming
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... Bob Chapman, this weird, larger than life character come in. What was it that he was saying that you sort of rolled your eyes?
- RFRandall Fleming
Oh, man, just about everything, and... [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Before the acquisition, there were no leadership classes and definitely no touchy feely culture. This was a traditional American manufacturing plant run with a command and control culture. You clocked in, did your job, kept your head down, didn't ask questions, didn't make waves, did your work, and then clocked out. That was the culture. But that all changed when Bob and his team took over.
- RFRandall Fleming
We always had these, we called them flavor of the month. You have all of these different things that they implement, and nothing ever really comes of it. You don't really see any results, but this was a whole new company coming in with all of these promises. But then there was also some major changes that were happening, and I was standoffish a lot just because of some of the things that were occurring business-wise, um, but more so, you know, this promise of a better place. It's like, "I just wanna do my job. You know, just don't promise me anything. Just leave me alone. I don't need a speech. I don't need a company meeting. You know, I just need to clock in, clock out, and Friday I'll deposit my check." So it was just foreign. I didn't believe anything because we never heard anything, you know, that really ever meant anything.
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause you'd heard promises before of this and that.
- RFRandall Fleming
All the time.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it was just talk. Maybe it was good for a week.
- RFRandall Fleming
Yeah, it would... You'd do something. Okay, it's done.And then six months later, what- whatever came of that?
- SSSimon Sinek
So you were cynical at all the promises, which is totally fair because you've heard it all before.
- RFRandall Fleming
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
So then what happened?
- RFRandall Fleming
Well, one individual came from Green Bay. They made him what was called the, um, continuous improvement leader at the time. And he didn't know me, um, luckily. And [laughs] then there was another woman that they, was here, and they... I used to work in the far end of the building, and they would come by and say hi to me, and how's it going, and I would just ignore them, um, 'cause I didn't wanna talk to anybody. Just leave me alone. You know, I don't like you.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- RFRandall Fleming
Get out of here. But they were so persistent, I mean, day after day. S-
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, they would say good morning regardless.
- RFRandall Fleming
Re- irregardless.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- RFRandall Fleming
And I was lucky enough that I had... I was able to surround my work area with enough work that you literally had to crawl over it to get in by me. Well, one day the, um, Maureen was her, is her name, crawled over m- all the steel and walked right up to me and, "Hi, Randall, how are you doing today?" And I was kind of stunned, but it was a woman, so I was nice. I tried to be nice.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- RFRandall Fleming
But that was kind of the start of, you know, I started to hear things that, okay, maybe this isn't just the flavor of the month. Maybe this is real. There was a- a- a course that I, we- they advertised. It was called Communication Skills. And, uh, 2003, I signed up for the course and, um-
- SSSimon Sinek
That was voluntary. Nobody was made to take it.
- RFRandall Fleming
Yeah. No one has to.
- 26:06 – 31:55
One life, two places: why work culture shapes health, families, and society
- SSSimon Sinek
Usually when a company wants to change its culture, it hires some change management consultant. There's lots of PowerPoints given, and there's an expectation that everyone changes on the assigned day. That's not what Bob did. He came in, he shared his philosophy of leadership, and he simply invited people to join whenever they wanted on their own timeframe. We bifurcated the world, right? It's like you have your home life and you have your work life.
- BCBob Chapman
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And we forget that it's not two different worlds. It's one very integrated world because the people who are going to work go back home and vice versa. And so if they go to a place of work where they don't feel like their work matters or they don't feel like they matter, they don't feel like their leaders care about them as human beings, they only see them as means of production, um, that stress that they carry of course has to go somewhere, and it comes in the form of lack of sleep, high blood pressure. It comes in the... You're grumpy. You're short-tempered, and that affects one's own health, but it also affects the health of the family unit. As you said, you know, you come home stressed from work, uh, just 'cause you have a, a shitty boss, you know? Not a toxic person, not somebody who's, like, screaming and yelling, just doesn't make you feel like you matter. They just care about your, your productivity. That stress comes out at home, and that affects kids' grades, kids' self-confidence, and it's an amazing concept. It's s- and it's so... The logic is so simple, and the logic is there, which is-
- BCBob Chapman
It has to be simple 'cause I, I've... It's occurred to me, it has to be simple.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] Which is if you're teaching these people how to listen, empathetic listening, so that they can better communicate at work, those skills are the skills they're going home. Not only do they feel better at work, they're taking those skills and they're raising their kids better. It's having a... I mean, that a good job and a good place to work is good for my family occo- occurs to nobody.
- BCBob Chapman
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, and that a, and, and that a company would say, "Come work for us. It's good for your family," other than just the, the mon- the money we're gonna pay you. 'Cause that's usually how we measure if it's good for your family is how much can I provide.
- BCBob Chapman
Well, remember, in my education, in my education, undergraduate accounting-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... MBA, Pricewaterhouse, then running a family business, I was never taught, never told, never made aware that the way I would run this company would affect people's personal lives-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... other than the compensation and the benefits.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
We think that is the exchange. You give me your gifts, I'll pay you fairly. But the most powerful thing we do to people is validate their worth, and the greatest source of happiness is a good job doing meaningful work that people enjoy. I get in front of CEOs all over the world and I say, "You're all worried about the cost of healthcare? You are the problem." 74% of all illnesses are chronic. The biggest cause of chronic illness is stress, and the biggest cause of stress is work. Jeffrey Pfeffer at Stanford wrote a book, Dying for a Paycheck, and he doesn't mean anxious to get it. He estimates we're killing 120,000 people a year die of work-related stress.
- SSSimon Sinek
Can you imagine if we taught in our MBAs, in our MBA classes that, that, that how you lead will directly affect someone's health, and that if you're a bad leader, y- there's a very short chain of logic that you're actually killing somebody? Increase in cortisol d- you know, hurts the immune system. You know, this slow, steady drip of, of cortisol because of the stress at work. I mean, to your point, which is people don't feel responsible for the lives of the people in their span of care because nobody's connected the dots for them.
- BCBob Chapman
Yeah, I mean, seriously, Simon, you can't ask people to care. You have to teach them how to care.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
You can't ask people to speak Chinese. You have to teach them how to speak. We found that t- caring is a teachable skill, and the good news is that with your encouragement and support and the evolution of this, that we're working with a number of major universities now to transform business education to create tomorrow's leaders who have the skills and courage to care, to bring these human skills in with academic skills so when they leave our education system, they're ready to live in the beauty of diversity, not the conflict of diversity. They're ready to be good stewards of the lives at home, in their community, at work, but it's a teachable skill. And, but we have always felt academic skills are-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... the key to success, and we forgot the human skills. [whimsical music]
- SSSimon Sinek
We interrupt this podcast with an ad with authenticity. This episode is sponsored by Porsche and their new Macan, which is actually my car.I had it before they called. It's actually my car, and I love it.
- SPSpeaker
There, there is an entire team in Germany that just focuses on how material feels or what, what the cadence of the buttons are or how, how they feel when you release them or what sound they make, and I think that's one thing that really speaks to me with the brand is that it comes all the way back to its roots of engineers and designers within the Porsche family. And when you have those two, it really comes back to the senses.
- SSSimon Sinek
My God, it works perfectly.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's the other reason why I have to say I love having a German car, which is everything works always.
- SPSpeaker
I-
- SSSimon Sinek
Exactly as it was designed. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Well said. Well said. And, and I will tell you that although the stereotype is, "Well, it's just about efficiency, it's just about perfection, it's just about mechanical ability," the people behind these product developments, they are lifelong Porsche owners, lifelong Porsche fans-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... racing fans, and they dedicate years to the smallest decisions and how this whole car comes together, and that part is so fun for me on the inside.
- 31:55 – 37:50
Downturn test: why Barry-Wehmiller rejects layoffs as ‘business model failure’
- SSSimon Sinek
There are some people who are cynical, that this is all fine and good and hippy-dippy when the economy is great, but when the economy dips, you know, you gotta, you gotta tighten the belt and focus on the numbers. And, you know, and we see it all the time. Even well-intentioned companies, as soon as, you know, something dips the numbers, the first thing to suffer is the people. They cut the recognition programs. They cut the spending on the leadership programs. They lay people off.
- BCBob Chapman
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, it's, it's the first thing we do. So it sounds like these things are all nice-to-haves if, if, if, if you're thriving. What do you have to say to those companies that that's the first thing they cut, people and programs, when, when, when struggle happens? I mean, what does Barry-Wehmiller do?
- BCBob Chapman
Well, it starts with we have a constitution of our culture, the guiding principle of leadership.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
And the, the overwhelming... th- the vision is we measure success by the way we touch the lives of people. So we kinda have a constitution that guides us like our country does in terms of the, the responsibility of leadership. So if you embrace that and you end up with an economic situation, what do we do?
- SSSimon Sinek
In 2008, when the housing market collapsed, it sent the economy into a financial crisis. Savings were wiped out, companies collapsed, and lives were shattered. As the economy went into full recession, most companies thought that they had no other option but to lay people off in order to survive. BW was also hit hard by the recession, but Bob refused to let anyone go.
- BCBob Chapman
Our orders dropped by 30%.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- BCBob Chapman
And I was taught, well, you know, what you gotta do is you gotta let people go.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- BCBob Chapman
Because, you know, man, that's what, just what you do. It's not personal. It's just what we do. We... I, I once, as you know, in the Air Force, asked some of the generals, "How do you teach these young men and women to kill?" And they said, "We don't. We teach them to take out targets that made bad decisions." They try to dehumanize the hurt they're gonna inflict in bo- dropping bombs. Well, we do that in business. We say, "Well, we had... We right-sized the company, you know, we organized the company. We gave the shareholders what they want." We dehumanize-
- SSSimon Sinek
Redu- reduce headcount.
- BCBob Chapman
Yeah, yeah. We, we dehumanize the impact. Psychological studies show that when people are let go, I walk up to you and say, "Sorry, I know you just bought a house. I know we just... But I'm gonna have to let you go 'cause we gotta make the numbers work," it is a major failure of stewardship because I tell our people around the world-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... my primary responsibility as the leader of this company is to have a business model that you feel safe.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
Okay? That you can raise a family, you can have a home. Layoffs are a broken part of our society. It means your business model failed. You let people down, okay?
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay. I gotta go de- deeper on that. You say if you embrace layoffs, it means your business model failed.
- BCBob Chapman
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Most major, uh, public companies, and unfortunately a lot of private companies, but most major public companies have fully embraced layoffs-
- BCBob Chapman
Sure
- SSSimon Sinek
... as an, as a regular mechanism to balance the books. H- have their business models failed?
- BCBob Chapman
Yes. Well, their leadership failed. Remember, very profitable companies, Jack Welch taught us years ago, you can always probably let 5% of your people go, and you'll actually do better. Not just to reduce costs, but, you know, it's good to kinda take the low performers out. So I was taught from a very early age, layoffs are a positive thing you do for a company 'cause you improve profitability. And, and investment advisors will come to your company and say, "You wanna improve your, your image in the market? Lay off some people," and, and say, "We're gonna, we're gonna make more money." And so part of it is the investing public rewards companies that do this. Their share price goes up when they lay off people. To me, it should go down because they... I mean, I guarantee you when a board considers, a public company or a private company considers a layoff where you're gonna hurt people, okay? You're gonna hurt people. They don't talk about the consequences of those people. It's just, it's just bus- so they'll find another job. How many weeks should we pay them for? I've never heard, ever in my 50-year career, ever heard a human way of talking about layoffs, downsizings. But we're taught just one of the things you do. It's not fun. It's not pleasant. So my responsibility to our people is to say, "My re- main responsibility is to make sure you're safe in my care, where we can create economic and human value in harmony." And when people feel safe, they will share greater gifts with you. You will attract greater talent. There's no downside. Again, some people think it's just about being nice, okay?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
It's much more profound, like parenting is being nice. Parenting is not being nice. It's being a good steward of this child in your care. Leadership is identical, and part of it is having a safe-Business model where they can raise a family, they can count on you and put their trust in you, and have a career with you. That is a foundational responsibility, and I've never heard that said before.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I think a lot of leaders forget about the ripples, right? Which is they understand that, you know, e- even though they don't talk about it or think about it, the, the impact it has on people's lives when they get laid off. They also forget about the people who didn't lose their jobs, but they watched their friends get laid off. You know, now, uh, you know, now fear is injected into the system. Am I next? You know, and one of the craziest things I've seen is companies a- announce, "We're gonna lay off people. We're gonna do a thousand a week." Uh, and you're just like, "How on Earth do you think that risk-taking and entrepreneurship and sticking your neck out for the greater good is gonna happen?" People are gonna retreat, they're gonna keep their heads down because the unbelievable fear that, that I'm next, not to mention the fact that it sucks to see your friends get laid off, you know, for no fault of their own. It wasn't a meritocracy. Uh, and you said boards aren't talking about the impact on the lives of the people they lay off, and they're also not talking about how it'll affect the culture for many, many months, uh, beyond that, if not years.
- 37:50 – 41:32
Performance and purpose: ‘How do you justify not caring?’
- BCBob Chapman
You know, Simon, some people say to me, "How do you justify this investment, this cost of caring for your people?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
Your university, your classes. And I sa- I look at them, I say, "I don't need to justify caring. How do you justify not caring?" Okay? Because people s- really struggle going from using people to care about people, because, you know, it's, it's really, it's re- it's a major bridge to cross for most people.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
But I say I, you know... Nobody has to justify safety, in other words, safety glasses, hard-toe shoes, safety vi- No, no company. Why? Because we have workman's compensation insurance, and we wanna manage the cost of it, so it's a cost, okay? So I would say to you, we don't have to justify safety. Why do we have to justify caring? Because this caring is the safety of your soul. I don't need to justify this. Because, you know, our company, we've had a 25-year growth in our share price, like 12% compounded for 25 years. So we're trying to prove-
- SSSimon Sinek
12% compounded growth for 25 years
- BCBob Chapman
... for 25 in our share price, okay?
- SSSimon Sinek
In your share price.
- BCBob Chapman
Okay, 'cause we have a very technical way of creating share price that emulates the market. And so I'd say to you, we have e- exceeded almost everybody you know for a long period of time. We take a long-term view, but we, again, we-
- SSSimon Sinek
So anybody cynical who says, "No, but performance, performance, performance," okay, fine. What you're demonstrating is that your, uh, leadership strategy outperforms the market.
- BCBob Chapman
So if you just look at the statistics that you've heard me say, that 88% of all people feel they work for an organization that doesn't care about them, and if you hear the statistic that three out of four people are disengaged in what they're doing, when you look at the 12,000, 5,200 people who work for you, and you know these statistics say that they're doing what they need to do to keep their job. They're not giving you their gifts, and you're sending them home damaged because you were not good stewards of their life. And that's why I say business could be the most profound source of good in the world if we simply knew how to care for the people. We have a society right now based on money, power, and position. Doesn't matter how you get it, as long as you get it legally, 'cause then you can write a check to, to charity, and they'll have a, a banquet to celebrate your goodness. They won't ask you how you got your money. They'll celebrate you. And I say to CEOs around the world, "The greatest act of charity is not the checks you write. The greatest act of charity is how you treat the people you have the privilege of leading."
- SSSimon Sinek
I have CEOs on here, uh, now and then, and, uh, honestly, um, in general, CEOs are the worst guests, uh, because it's hard to have candid conversations with them. They're very, very media trained. They come in with their talking points. You know, it doesn't matter what I ask, they know how to get their point across. They're gonna tell me about their success. They're gonna tell me about their product. They're gonna tell me about the quality. I mean, I'm sitting here in one of your factories, and not once have we talked about your product, what this factory makes, the quality. Not once have we talked about your product, and this is completely opposite than almost every other CEO I talk to.
- BCBob Chapman
Well, Simon, again, it was a couple of years ago that Washington University organizational development professors interviewed me for an hour and a half, normal interview. At, at the end of the hour and a half they said, "We have never talked to a CEO that never talked about your product." And I sat back and I said, "We've been talking about our product for the last hour and a half. It's our people." Okay? I'm not gonna go to my grave proud of the machinery we built, 'cause we build great machinery. I'm gonna go to my grave proud of the people that built that. [machine humming]
- 41:32 – 51:00
Trust in action: empowering operators to choose capital equipment
- SSSimon Sinek
For Bob, it always comes back to the people and the trust he places in those who give him at least 40 hours a week of their lives. And there's one story I've been telling for years about two of those lives, Jared Nelson and Lance Johnson. It's a story of a big company trusting someone with a high school education to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy a new machine. So I gotta tell you what a treat it is for me. I mean, we've met briefly, you know, but I've never actually had the chance to talk to you in depth. I heard your story, and I have been telling your story from the stage for, for literally years. So I'm gonna tell it. Tell me if I get the, the facts right, okay?
- SPSpeaker
Sure.
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause this is how I've been telling it, which is a bunch of years ago, Barry-Wehmiller, where we are, um, o- one of the machines is getting old and needs to be replaced.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Traditionally, when a company needs to replace a ch- machine, somebody in procurement puts together a budget and goes and buys a machine in the open market.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's traditionally how it's done. Some guy in a suit
- SSSimon Sinek
... goes and buys a machine. But Barry-Wehmiller did it differently.
- LJLance Johnson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
They came to the two guys who work on the machine, which was you two. You're not accountants. You're not in procurement. You don't have any advanced degrees in how to do this stuff. You just work on the machine. And they said to you, "We've got $750,000 budget. Go buy a machine." And you went out into the marketplace, you looked at new machines, you looked at used machines. And where these people who sell machines are used to people standing there in a suit and clipboard talking about the machine-
- LJLance Johnson
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... you guys show up and you're climbing inside the machines.
- LJLance Johnson
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You end up buying a brand-new machine. You spend $500,000. The company saved $250,000, and that machine will never break because it's your machine. That's the story I've been telling.
- LJLance Johnson
Yep. It's really close. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
It's really close. No? What did I get wrong?
- LJLance Johnson
So Derrick was an operator that we had. Jared was another operator. When I had the opportunity to, you know, given, uh, given to me to go purchase a machine, I knew right away that to get buy-in from the operators was probably gonna be the most important thing on my side as the leader in that area. So I went to Jared and D- and Derrick, and I basically said, "Guys, this is what we got to play with as far as a cash amount. I don't know what we should get. You guys are the experts on this matter." So I, I basically used a lot of responsible freedom for these guys, and I sort of went, "Well, we'll see how this goes." They came to work the next morning, and they had advertisement flyers, email clippings, everything sent to me to, to, to review. And at that point I sort of went, "You know what? Maybe this won't be as hard as what it would sound." Because, you know, in my life, obviously growing up and raising a family, you can buy a car, you can buy a house. Capital equipment, like you said, that's really not anything that would've been in my realm of I'm gonna do this someday. So I got Jared and Derrick involved, and they were both, uh, great, you know, to work with on this process. Um, these were the two that were gonna make or break this product. And getting the buy-in with, with them guys and knowing that they didn't wanna, you know, fail, that was-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- LJLance Johnson
... that was a success.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
And going back, Derrick and I, I worked second shift, Derrick worked first shift, you know, so we'd take turns. He'd go look for stuff during the day, and we'd figure out what we wanted and what kind of machine we needed, you know, what we all wanted in that machine. And then we'd, you know, meet up at the end of the shift on first shift and we'd talk it over, and we went from there, and we did pretty good. And we had a lot of insight from guys that we worked with in the past, field technicians-
- LJLance Johnson
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and stuff like that. So they kind of drove us, you know, in the right direction of what we wanted and what kind of machine we needed for capabilities and stuff like that, so.
- SSSimon Sinek
This is an even better story than I've been telling.
- LJLance Johnson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because you were assigned to buy the machine-
- LJLance Johnson
Yep
- SSSimon Sinek
... and you went and said, "I need help."
- LJLance Johnson
I, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You said you know this better than I do.
- 51:00 – 54:55
Stability, language, and everyday stewardship: ‘we are the signs’
- SSSimon Sinek
What is your hope for American business? Based on what you know, based on what you've seen possible, what's your dream for American business?
- LJLance Johnson
I would like to see, obviously, the business booms again and get these smaller towns back to being bright and vibrant and, and giving hope to the community to know that stability is here and, and families can, can prosper. And, and obviously, you know, some of us have been lucky enough to find that and stay here, but there's so much in this area that we all love, and that's the main reason why we've decided not to go anywhere. We don't wanna lose. We wanna keep jobs here in Phillips.
- SSSimon Sinek
You- you've used the word stability-
- LJLance Johnson
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... quite a, quite a lot. Um, and stability isn't just having a factory in a small town in America.
- LJLance Johnson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You're not just simply talking about bringing businesses to-
- LJLance Johnson
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... and opening the factories in these towns.
- LJLance Johnson
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
You're talking about how they're led.
- LJLance Johnson
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
What is, what is it that you wanna see how the m- the modern American factory is led? Where do you want it to go from, and where do you want it to go to?
- LJLance Johnson
I think the terminology we even use, managers versus leaders, right? We've, we've had opportunities to be led in our, in our jobs, and I've been blessed to have a lot of great leaders. I know what a manager look like as well, because I experienced that. But if we can get companies to start leading and growing and looking at the talent that you have within, and looking at the opportunities that you can present with this team member, if they're loyal to a company, we're gonna grow 'em. We're gonna make 'em part of our business.
- SSSimon Sinek
Language matters, and Bob knows it. He's obsessed with making sure his language perfectly captures his message. At Barry-Wehmiller, for example, they don't track their head count, they track their heart count. Randall and I are standing on the floor where he started as a welder back in 1988. Today, he's a production leader. The former loner now leads teams of people. The former skeptic is now one of the top-rated professors at Barry-Wehmiller University, teaching what he's learned about putting people first. One of the things that I love about this place is, you know, I've been to other factories before, and you've worked at many places before. They're dirty, generally.
- RFRandall Fleming
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And there's signs all over the place that say, "Safety first. Safety first. Safety first." And the, you know, the how many days since we've had an accident is, like, four, you know? Uh, here, it's spotless. There's no big signs everywhere that say, "Safety first." W- w- where are all the signs, and how is it so clean?
- RFRandall Fleming
You're, you're looking at all the signs. Everyone in this building is part of the culture. We're, we're the signs. It's the way that w- that we are as team members and leaders. We support everyone. We support each other. We help each other. That's what this culture is about. And as a leader, my only real job, as I can see it, is to help my team succeed at all costs.
- SSSimon Sinek
When somebody feels seen, heard, understood, feels supported, as you said, we are all the signs. The reaction is, "I wanna keep this place clean, not for me, but for you. I wanna keep this place safe. I wanna keep you safe, 'cause I care about you." And so you don't need big signs, marketing campaigns that, let's be honest, they don't work.
- RFRandall Fleming
They don't work.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's just a way of management saying they are-
- RFRandall Fleming
We're trying
- SSSimon Sinek
... prioritizing safety.
- RFRandall Fleming
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
We're trying. And what a lot of companies don't realize is take care of the people, pe- people will take care of each other, and they'll take care of the space they're working in.
- RFRandall Fleming
Couldn't have said it any better myself. [laughs]
- 54:55 – 1:12:04
Carrying the torch: Simon and Bob reflect on friendship, mission, and legacy
- SSSimon Sinek
The biggest lesson from Barry-Wehmiller is clear: when we make people feel truly valued and take care of their lives, they take care of each other. They show up, they step up, they outperform, not because they have to, but because they want to. And all this in turn takes good care of the company. This is exactly why I love Bob Chapman. He is my mentor, he is my friend, and he inspires me. I met you because you reached out to me, um, and, and showed me this magical place. I got to know you, and I wrote-- I ch- I decided to write about, uh, this amazing place that you had built in, in, in a book I wrote called Leaders Eat Last. You're sort of the, the sort of a, a central character in that book, I would argue. And you and I have become friends over the years, and, and, and you've been a mentor to me. I've learned a lot about how to improve my own leadership, uh, uh, ability from you. What have you learned, uh, even about yourself over these past fifteen years?
- BCBob Chapman
Well, Simon, when you came, we were on this journey.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
And it was just an, uh, just an incremental journey. And you came in, and you saw something that we didn't see. I mean, we thought things were going well, but you, you amplified our awareness that we had been blessed. And so what I have learned, because since we first met, I've given hundreds of speeches around the world. The Harvard case study, the TEDx talk you did, the book. There's no question as I sit here today, since we first met, that some higher power is using us to show the world the way he meant it to be, where people genuinely care for each other.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- BCBob Chapman
And I feel this today, I feel this tremendous calling t-to take this responsibility of this message I've been blessed with and make sure it lives well beyond my time with voices like yours, your books, your, your talks around the world. So I feel this tremendous sense of obligation. Why would somebody pick a manufacturing company in America that makes machinery to show the world what it should be? Okay. Okay, why would he pick a carpenter to, you know, be the father of, uh, of, of our Christ? So I would say to you, I feel a profound... And it grows because-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... uh, the reaction. I mean, I speak in healthcare, I speak in the military.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
I speak in Congress, I speak in the United... Everywhere I speak, I see the hurt in the world. And so I'd say to you, what has been amplified is because, uh, you've opened the door to the world, how could we have a culture here in a traditional business that the world said, "I've never seen anything like it"? How is that possible? I'm just a simple accountant from North St. Louis running a manufacturing company. 'Cause we were blessed with a message that could heal the world. And when I e- look today as we talk-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... the issues we face in the world, I see business as a source of destruction, creating economic value, but not human value.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
And, and I feel a profound sense of responsibility with you and our partnership to change the way the world sees its, its responsibility to people they have the privilege of leading.
- SSSimon Sinek
I wanna tell the story when I first went on this tour of all your factories, and I saw this thing, and I remember saying to you, "I can no longer be accused of being a crazy idealist because what I imagine exists in reality." I, I remember seeing the magic, and then you introduced me to the culture team that had-- that was responsible for these classes and a, a lot of what you... helping you implement what you imagined. And after I'd seen this tour, and you knew my opinion of what I'd seen, I remember they were all sitting there with big smiles thinking I was just gonna say, "You guys are amazing. You guys are amazing." And they're all waiting with a big smile on their face. And I remember my first comments to your culture team were, um, "I think you may be the most selfish company I've ever met," I said. And I remember them all shocked. And I said, "Oh yeah, I saw what you built, and it is nothing short of remarkable. And it is incredible what you have done for the lives of," back then, "three thousand people." I said, "Meanwhile, there are millions of people struggling at work, and you are keeping to yourselves something that the world would benefit from." And, uh, I remember it was on that day you sort of said, "Batter up," and, uh, you started on the speaking circuit to share what you'd done. You've written your book, Everybody Matters, to get the word out there. You've set up a, a consultancy to help companies learn what you're doing. You set up a not-for-profit to bring the listening courses to civil servants around the, the country so that they may benefit from, from, from the learning, so you can help policing organizations, ambulances, nurses, all of... you know, firefighters. The-- These are the people that you're helping with these, with these courses. And it really is, it is an amazing thing. It's, it's an, it's been an amazing thing for me to watch. The small company that was very insular and doing something amazing, that you, you really are one of the leaders of the, the movement to, to, to make business a force for good, for the health of people, not just for the prosperity of people. It's been an amazing journey. Do you wanna know how I've seen you change since I've met you?
- BCBob Chapman
I've gotten older. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, not, not, not in spirit. You have the same amazing energy from when I first met you. Um, you are softer, and I don't mean your voice is softer. I mean, uh, I never... I, it took years before I saw you choke up for the first time because of what you were saying. And, uh, I see you choke up more often now. It was always personal, but it's become really personal, and, and you're more willing to wear your emotions on your sleeve more than you used to. Even, even, even the way... You used to give me like, you know, sort of like, "Good to see you, Simon," sort of like a tap on the shoulder, you know? And then it became like a tap on the back, and then it became a bro hug. And, and now you hug me. You know? You hug me with love. And I've seen that. I felt that. That's gonna ch- that's gonna make me cry. [laughs]
- BCBob Chapman
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I wish leaders took leadership as personally as you do. You know? They, they see it as, they see it as a rank or position. They see it as, as power and authority. Um, but they don't take it as seriously as raising a child, and you take taking care of your people as seriously a- as taking care of your children. I mean, it is not a punchline when you say that everybody who works for you is someone's son and someone's daughter. I mean, you deeply mean it, and you deeply feel it. You know, I have the pleasure of getting to talk to you when we're off camera, and what people don't understand is this preaching that you do when you're on a microphone, this is how you are all the time. [laughs]
- BCBob Chapman
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, like, can we just have dinner?
- BCBob Chapman
My wife reminds me of that all the time.
- SSSimon Sinek
Can we just have dinner?
- BCBob Chapman
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
It's like, my God, my God, I heard it. But this is, this is... it's so ingrained in who you are and how personally you take this. Um, it's such a source of inspiration, I gotta tell you. Um, I know people who turn it on and turn it off, and you can't turn it off. It's, it's core to who you are.
- BCBob Chapman
I always say, Simon, you can retire from a job, but you cannot retire from a calling.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
I'm sure you can imagine what it feels like when I get in front of crowds all over the world, and I see people come to tears, I see, get standing ovations because h- can you imagine how it feels, b- given all the talks I've given in all parts of the country, to have the most healing message that people ever heard? I mean, the reaction to our message universally-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... standing ovation, emotions, because it gives people hope. To think that some higher power selected this kid from North Saint Louis with an accounting degree-
Episode duration: 1:12:05
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Transcript of episode O6766oydXpw
