The Myth of the Perfect Meditator with podcaster Jay Shetty | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

1. 0:00 – 5:23

   What inspires Jay and what stresses him out

   1. SSSimon Sinek0:00

      How long w- did you do the monk thing?

   2. JSJay Shetty0:01

      Three years.

   3. SSSimon Sinek0:03

      And why'd you quit? [laughs]

   4. JSJay Shetty0:05

      No, I mean-

   5. SSSimon Sinek0:05

      I mean, is quit the wrong word?

   6. JSJay Shetty0:06

      Yeah, it's, it's-

   7. SSSimon Sinek0:06

      Like, why did you decide to come back to-

   8. JSJay Shetty0:07

      It's like asking someone why did you get divorced.

   9. SSSimon Sinek0:09

      [laughs]

   10. JSJay Shetty0:09

       That's, that's the kind of question it is.

   11. SSSimon Sinek0:10

       I, I, I apologize for the word choice. [laughs]

   12. JSJay Shetty0:11

       No, no, no, no. No, no, no. It's a g- it's a good question, but I'm saying, like, that's what... It felt like a divorce. Like, that's how it felt.

   13. SSSimon Sinek0:18

       Everybody keeps telling me that I need to do more yoga, that I need to meditate more, that I need to embrace all these ancient philosophies to help me manage in this modern world. Sure, that's good, and I went to a yoga class, and somebody yelled at me because I took their mat. And at the end of the day, what's so wrong with the modern world? I mean, I can disconnect by zoning out in front of Netflix just fine. In fact, I find it super relaxing. What's the right balance? That's why I sat down with Jay Shetty. He's the host of the podcast On Purpose, and he has spent a career helping people find peace, tranquility, and purpose in our modern world. He actually did live in a temple as a monk for three years before leaving that life to return to our magical and wonderful modern society. And we really got into it. I expected to have a deeply philosophical conversation with him, but what we got was actually quite practical. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] Two questions. What's inspiring you right now? What's keeping you up right now?

   14. JSJay Shetty1:29

       Ooh, such good questions. I love it. This is why I came here, by the way, for questions like this.

   15. SSSimon Sinek1:33

       Oh, it only, it only goes up-

   16. JSJay Shetty1:35

       Yeah

   17. SSSimon Sinek1:35

       ... from there.

   18. JSJay Shetty1:35

       What's exciting me right now is that my monk teacher's about to come and spend a month at my house, and so I'm always looking forward to that. So he's coming in April. He stays with us for, like, a month. I'll get to wake up every day and meditate with him, and-

   19. SSSimon Sinek1:49

       Where's he from?

   20. JSJay Shetty1:50

       Well, he's actually born and raised in Chicago, but he-

   21. SSSimon Sinek1:52

       That's where all the best monks come from.

   22. JSJay Shetty1:54

       [laughs] Really?

   23. SSSimon Sinek1:54

       People don't realize.

   24. JSJay Shetty1:55

       Yeah. [laughs]

   25. SSSimon Sinek1:55

       They think it's Tibet. It's not. It's Chicago.

   26. JSJay Shetty1:56

       He, he hitchhiked-

   27. SSSimon Sinek1:58

       [laughs]

   28. JSJay Shetty1:58

       ... all the way to India at the age of, like, 19 years old. So he lives in India now.

   29. SSSimon Sinek2:02

       Okay.

   30. JSJay Shetty2:03

       But, uh, he's been living there for the past few decades, so I'm really excited to see him.
2. 5:23 – 9:57

   Rest is critical to high performance

   1. JSJay Shetty5:23

      about it for the next three days, switch off.

   2. SSSimon Sinek5:23

      So you're good at taking a holiday?

   3. JSJay Shetty5:25

      Yes.

   4. SSSimon Sinek5:25

      So when you go away on a holiday-

   5. JSJay Shetty5:26

      Yes

   6. SSSimon Sinek5:27

      ... you don't check your email.

   7. JSJay Shetty5:28

      No.

   8. SSSimon Sinek5:28

      You don't call in.

   9. JSJay Shetty5:29

      Absolutely.

   10. SSSimon Sinek5:29

       Nothing.

   11. JSJay Shetty5:30

       I, I can do it at the drop of a hat. So I log out for work every Christmas around the 15th of December, and then I won't log back in till the 15th of Jan. And I've done that for years now.

   12. SSSimon Sinek5:41

       And you're not afraid of the, the influx of emails in the inbox?

   13. JSJay Shetty5:43

       Not at all, because everyone knows I give, uh, very short email replies [laughs]

   14. SSSimon Sinek5:49

       [laughs]

   15. JSJay Shetty5:49

       And probably will not read most of them. So partly it's my ability to not be as harsh on myself.

   16. SSSimon Sinek5:55

       How do you teach your team to do the same?

   17. JSJay Shetty5:58

       To switch off?

   18. SSSimon Sinek5:59

       To switch off.

   19. JSJay Shetty5:59

       It's such an interesting thing, right? I mean, all the studies show we don't take enough holidays.

   20. SSSimon Sinek6:03

       Yeah.

   21. JSJay Shetty6:03

       People don't take their vacation. I think the first thing is they need to see you do it.

   22. SSSimon Sinek6:07

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JSJay Shetty6:07

       I think if your team sees you do it-They see the value in it.

   24. SSSimon Sinek6:10

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JSJay Shetty6:11

       There was one member of my team actually who never took vacations, and if she did take a vacation, she'd be constantly online.

   26. SSSimon Sinek6:17

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JSJay Shetty6:18

       And she'd wanna check in, she'd wanna join the meeting, she'd wanna send an update. And I kept telling her that our work is not life or death. It's really important work, but it's not life or death.

   28. SSSimon Sinek6:27

       Right.

   29. JSJay Shetty6:27

       And there is no need for her to have that level of urgency and availability. And for her, and it's different for everyone, for her, I had to convince her-

   30. SSSimon Sinek6:36

       Yeah
3. 9:57 – 13:37

   Why Jay left the monkhood

   1. SSSimon Sinek9:57

      I, I'm very curious because, now how long w- did you do the monk thing?

   2. JSJay Shetty10:00

      Three years.

   3. SSSimon Sinek10:02

      And why'd you quit? [laughs]

   4. JSJay Shetty10:04

      Oh, yeah. I mean-

   5. SSSimon Sinek10:04

      Maybe did I put it-

   6. JSJay Shetty10:05

      So many [laughs]

   7. SSSimon Sinek10:05

      ... I mean, is quit the wrong word?

   8. JSJay Shetty10:06

      Yeah, it's, it's-

   9. SSSimon Sinek10:06

      Like, why did you decide to come back-

   10. JSJay Shetty10:07

       It's like asking someone why did you get divorced. That's, that's the kind of question it is.

   11. SSSimon Sinek10:10

       I, I apologize for the word choice. [laughs]

   12. JSJay Shetty10:11

       No, no, no. No, no, no. It's a g- it's a good question, but I'm saying, like, that's what, it felt like a divorce.

   13. SSSimon Sinek10:17

       Okay.

   14. JSJay Shetty10:17

       Like, that's how it felt.

   15. SSSimon Sinek10:17

       So what was the impetus to do it in the first place?

   16. JSJay Shetty10:20

       Falling in love.

   17. SSSimon Sinek10:20

       How old were you?

   18. JSJay Shetty10:21

       I was, I became a monk after I graduated, so 21 going on 22.

   19. SSSimon Sinek10:24

       Okay, so you're at university.

   20. JSJay Shetty10:26

       Yeah.

   21. SSSimon Sinek10:26

       And you're like, "You know what? Finance is not for me."

   22. JSJay Shetty10:29

       Yes.

   23. SSSimon Sinek10:29

       "It's the monk life I want."

   24. JSJay Shetty10:30

       Yes. And, and the reason for doing it was as simple to demystify it was my role models became monks. As soon as I met the monks-

   25. SSSimon Sinek10:39

       Oh

   26. JSJay Shetty10:39

       ... in my late teenage years, the role models became monks. I was so inspired by the way they lived because they told me that they were focused on two things. One was mastering the mind and serving others. And I thought, "What better pursuits in the world than mastering your emotions, your envy, your jealousy, your greed, your lust, your anger, and your illusion, and the ability to use all your gifts and skills in the service of others?"

   27. SSSimon Sinek11:02

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JSJay Shetty11:02

       And I'd also met CEOs and finance directors and hedge fund managers, and just at that time, no one really spoke to me the way they did. And so I think it was the first real male role models I had that inspired that path. And then what made me leave was the realization that I couldn't do it. Like, the actual realization that monk training is meant to make you self-aware through all of that training, and when you get that much self-awareness and realize that I'm not a monk in my own self-awareness, it's probably the harshest thing. So it's almost like saying, "I wanna love you for the rest of my life, but by loving you, I realized that's not where I'm meant to be." And that was shown to me physically and emotionally. So physically, my health broke down. It was super tough on my body. It was really hard to live communally. You're often sleeping in rooms of 30 to 100 people, whether it's flus, viruses, people getting up at different times. I'm a light sleeper, all of that on the body. And then emotionally and mentally, I was like, "I'm more of a rebel. I'm, I like the rules, but I want them to fit into my life this way, and I like the discipline, but I'd prefer to tweak it a little." And that, that honesty of I'm someone who wants to make these teachings more pliable into my own life-As someone who believes I'm a modern person from London, and I'd love to help other people do that too, so-

   29. SSSimon Sinek12:16

       But what's interesting-

   30. JSJay Shetty12:17

       That's the quick answer
4. 13:37 – 27:24

   3 Lessons from Monk Life

   1. JSJay Shetty13:37

      those three years."

   2. SSSimon Sinek13:37

      So what, what, what are three tools you learned that every college, uh-

   3. JSJay Shetty13:43

      Mm

   4. SSSimon Sinek13:43

      ... graduate should learn without having to go to be a monk for three years?

   5. JSJay Shetty13:47

      Oh, what a great question. Uh, the first one is stop looking at your reflection so much. I think right now in the world we're overexposed to how we look more than we ever have been before. So in the monastery there were no mirrors. You rarely saw how you look. It was only when you went outside and you looked at your reflection in a shop window or whatever it may have been, that you remembered what you looked like. There was this real feeling of I've forgotten my physical appearance.

   6. SSSimon Sinek14:18

      Mm.

   7. JSJay Shetty14:18

      I've forgotten my sense of age, or I've forgotten my scrutiny and analysis that we all have in the morning when we wake up and we say, "Oh, I look ugly today. I look tired today. I look, too many spots on my face. I, you know, I've got these bags under my eyes," this constant harsh negative criticism, inner talk, inner critic that we have. I think there's an overexposure. I don't think we were meant to record ourselves and watch ourselves back as many times as we do. I don't think we were meant to look at ourselves on mirrors, screens, reflections in every possible object, and I think it's made us so physically conscious-

   8. SSSimon Sinek14:51

      Mm

   9. JSJay Shetty14:52

      ... and physically analytical-

   10. SSSimon Sinek14:53

       Mm

   11. JSJay Shetty14:54

       ... that we don't actually have time to think about the emotional, the spiritual, the psychological. We don't have as much space, and then the physical, psychological, emotional gets filled up-

   12. SSSimon Sinek15:04

       Mm

   13. JSJay Shetty15:04

       ... with analyzing the physical, and therefore we analyze other people more, too. Before we didn't see as many-

   14. SSSimon Sinek15:09

       Mm

   15. JSJay Shetty15:09

       ... people.

   16. SSSimon Sinek15:10

       Mm.

   17. JSJay Shetty15:10

       And so I think now we're overexposed, overthinking, overanalyzing, uh, but not over our exes. [laughs]

   18. SSSimon Sinek15:16

       It's so tr- it's so true, right? Like you're sitting on a Zoom call-

   19. JSJay Shetty15:19

       Yeah

   20. SSSimon Sinek15:19

       ... noticing yourself and cor-

   21. JSJay Shetty15:21

       [laughs]

   22. SSSimon Sinek15:21

       ... and correcting your angle and-

   23. JSJay Shetty15:22

       Even now I'm correcting myself. [laughs]

   24. SSSimon Sinek15:23

       You, you know, you... But, but like you weren't looking at yourself correcting yourself w- while you're on a Zoom, uh, supposed- supposedly in a meeting. But you c- but if you're in a physical meeting you don't do that. You don't sort of correct the angle of your head to make yourself look a little bit better in a meeting.

   25. JSJay Shetty15:37

       Exactly. Exactly.

   26. SSSimon Sinek15:37

       But you do in a Zoom call.

   27. JSJay Shetty15:38

       Exactly that.

   28. SSSimon Sinek15:39

       That's funny.

   29. JSJay Shetty15:39

       And that self-correcting, that self-editing, we... Not that you shouldn't be well-presented.

   30. SSSimon Sinek15:44

       Sure, sure.
5. 27:24 – 38:53

   What we get wrong about meditation

   1. JSJay Shetty27:24

      Yeah.

   2. SSSimon Sinek27:24

      Let's talk about meditation.

   3. JSJay Shetty27:25

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SSSimon Sinek27:26

      More importantly, the perception of meditation in the Western world. And so the way I think about meditation, yes, there are tremendous benefits to the self for meditation. We know this. Science proves it.

   5. JSJay Shetty27:34

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SSSimon Sinek27:35

      You know, you, you, you preach it. Where I get cynical is we've turned meditation into an entirely selfish pursuit, and worse, a business. Buy my thing so you can meditate. Pay money so that you can meditate. And in the West, we sort of, I think we've kind of lost the plot, you know, of, A, what the value of these s- Eastern spiritual practices are, and in a very American fashion, found a business model to fit it. I'd love for you to just, somebody who did it purely in, in, in India, you know, just I'd love for you to react to that.

   7. JSJay Shetty28:14

      Yeah.

   8. SSSimon Sinek28:14

      Like, do you get frustrated when you see basically an onslaught of businesses selling what is a spiritual practice? It's like the selling of indulgences-

   9. JSJay Shetty28:25

      [laughs]

   10. SSSimon Sinek28:25

       ... you know, to get into heaven. You know? It's like I think you missed the point here.

   11. JSJay Shetty28:28

       So yeah, there's, there's two sides to it.

   12. SSSimon Sinek28:30

       [laughs]

   13. JSJay Shetty28:30

       One is that, one is that I genuinely believe that ideally if every human learned how to meditate at school-

   14. SSSimon Sinek28:41

       Yeah

   15. JSJay Shetty28:42

       ... and it was part of the system-

   16. SSSimon Sinek28:43

       Then we'd have no need for it

   17. JSJay Shetty28:44

       ... then we'd have no need for it.

   18. SSSimon Sinek28:45

       Mm.

   19. JSJay Shetty28:45

       And that would be the solve. I would, by the way, love to be able to figure out how to do that. I think it should be something that's free, ideally, for everyone in the world. It should be a tool, but so is emotional mastery and resilience and intelligence.

   20. SSSimon Sinek28:58

       Yeah, it's teach-

   21. JSJay Shetty28:58

       Like-

   22. SSSimon Sinek28:58

       But, yeah, it's to your point, it's teaching the-

   23. JSJay Shetty28:58

       Everything you talk about-

   24. SSSimon Sinek28:59

       ... it's teaching the skill, right?

   25. JSJay Shetty29:00

       It's teaching the skill.

   26. SSSimon Sinek29:01

       Okay. So it's about accountability. If you pay money for it, you're more likely to do it.

   27. JSJay Shetty29:04

       I think the challenge is now that school hasn't done that-

   28. SSSimon Sinek29:08

       Right

   29. JSJay Shetty29:08

       ... and so school hasn't served its purpose on that level, we now liv- by the way, and this applies to everything. School didn't teach us how to figure out our taxes, so now we have to figure out how to do that.

   30. SSSimon Sinek29:18

       Fair point.
6. 38:53 – 48:48

   Talking to robots vs. talking to humans

   1. JSJay Shetty38:53

      I've been in these shoes in one particular example that I can remember of that teacher where, so I'd, I'd moved to LA, this was like 2018, maybe 2018, 2019, I was jumping into an Uber, and I got in, and five minutes later I realized we hadn't moved, or a couple of minutes later I realized we hadn't moved. And I looked up at the driver and I said, "Hey, how's it going?" And he goes, "Oh yeah, you didn't say hello to me. Like when you came in, you didn't say anything." And I thought about that, like our whole life has been wired for efficiency and productivity and ease. And so I'm on my phone, I walk into the back of an Uber, I'm just messaging. I'm expecting the car to take me there. I'm gonna go without saying bye and acknowledging a human. And some people have shared, oh, maybe he was acting, overreacting, over the top, but I actually think it was brilliant because I think it was a great message to me of just being like, well, why can't you acknowledge a human?

   2. SSSimon Sinek39:45

      Yeah.

   3. JSJay Shetty39:45

      I don't need to tell my wife-

   4. SSSimon Sinek39:46

      It's not a, it's not a driverless car.

   5. JSJay Shetty39:47

      It's not a driverless car. I shouldn't treat it as a driverless car.

   6. SSSimon Sinek39:50

      And hello seems pretty-

   7. JSJay Shetty39:52

      And hello is basic. It's not-

   8. SSSimon Sinek39:53

      ... is, is an entry level

   9. JSJay Shetty39:54

      Yeah. It's not like he's pitching me his movie script or album or whatever it is. He's, he's literally just requesting a hello, and for me that was a really big mindful moment of, wait a minute, that is what mindfulness is. And so I've been in those shoes where-

   10. SSSimon Sinek40:07

       That's good

   11. JSJay Shetty40:08

       ... I've missed it, and I wish-

   12. SSSimon Sinek40:10

       That's good

   13. JSJay Shetty40:10

       ... that, that moment was great for me because ever since that day I've always said hello. [laughs]

   14. SSSimon Sinek40:14

       And-

   15. JSJay Shetty40:14

       Because it's the least we can do for each other

   16. SSSimon Sinek40:16

       ... so good.

   17. JSJay Shetty40:16

       Yeah.

   18. SSSimon Sinek40:16

       And if the goal of life is to make other people feel seen-

   19. JSJay Shetty40:19

       Yes

   20. SSSimon Sinek40:20

       ... like l- in this case, literally.

   21. JSJay Shetty40:23

       Yeah. [laughs]

   22. SSSimon Sinek40:23

       Right? Like you didn't know that there was a driver there for two minutes, right?

   23. JSJay Shetty40:27

       Yeah.

   24. SSSimon Sinek40:27

       That's a great... And it's v- it takes so little-

   25. JSJay Shetty40:30

       So little

   26. SSSimon Sinek40:30

       ... to acknowledge someone's existence.

   27. JSJay Shetty40:32

       Mm-hmm.

   28. SSSimon Sinek40:33

       And, and we look at the divisions we have today, I think it's because we've so dehumanized each other. Don't even acknowledge that other people have to share our planet or share our country or share the air that we breathe.

   29. JSJay Shetty40:43

       Yeah. And-

   30. SSSimon Sinek40:45

       It's, it's so simple

Episode duration: 48:51