The Myth of the Perfect Meditator with podcaster Jay Shetty | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Simon Sinek 0:00 How long w- did you do the monk thing?

Jay Shetty 0:01 Three years.

Simon Sinek 0:03 And why'd you quit? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 0:05 No, I mean-

Simon Sinek 0:05 I mean, is quit the wrong word?

Jay Shetty 0:06 Yeah, it's, it's-

Simon Sinek 0:06 Like, why did you decide to come back to-

Jay Shetty 0:07 It's like asking someone why did you get divorced.

Simon Sinek 0:09 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 0:09 That's, that's the kind of question it is.

Simon Sinek 0:10 I, I, I apologize for the word choice. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 0:11 No, no, no, no. No, no, no. It's a g- it's a good question, but I'm saying, like, that's what... It felt like a divorce. Like, that's how it felt.

Simon Sinek 0:18 Everybody keeps telling me that I need to do more yoga, that I need to meditate more, that I need to embrace all these ancient philosophies to help me manage in this modern world. Sure, that's good, and I went to a yoga class, and somebody yelled at me because I took their mat. And at the end of the day, what's so wrong with the modern world? I mean, I can disconnect by zoning out in front of Netflix just fine. In fact, I find it super relaxing. What's the right balance? That's why I sat down with Jay Shetty. He's the host of the podcast On Purpose, and he has spent a career helping people find peace, tranquility, and purpose in our modern world. He actually did live in a temple as a monk for three years before leaving that life to return to our magical and wonderful modern society. And we really got into it. I expected to have a deeply philosophical conversation with him, but what we got was actually quite practical. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] Two questions. What's inspiring you right now? What's keeping you up right now?

Jay Shetty 1:29 Ooh, such good questions. I love it. This is why I came here, by the way, for questions like this.

Simon Sinek 1:33 Oh, it only, it only goes up-

Jay Shetty 1:35 Yeah

Simon Sinek 1:35 ... from there.

Jay Shetty 1:35 What's exciting me right now is that my monk teacher's about to come and spend a month at my house, and so I'm always looking forward to that. So he's coming in April. He stays with us for, like, a month. I'll get to wake up every day and meditate with him, and-

Simon Sinek 1:49 Where's he from?

Jay Shetty 1:50 Well, he's actually born and raised in Chicago, but he-

Simon Sinek 1:52 That's where all the best monks come from.

Jay Shetty 1:54 [laughs] Really?

Simon Sinek 1:54 People don't realize.

Jay Shetty 1:55 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:55 They think it's Tibet. It's not. It's Chicago.

Jay Shetty 1:56 He, he hitchhiked-

Simon Sinek 1:58 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:58 ... all the way to India at the age of, like, 19 years old. So he lives in India now.

Simon Sinek 2:02 Okay.

Jay Shetty 2:03 But, uh, he's been living there for the past few decades, so I'm really excited to see him.

Simon Sinek 2:06 And you met him back when you were-

Jay Shetty 2:08 I'm, yeah, exactly

Simon Sinek 2:08 ... doing the monk thing?

Jay Shetty 2:09 I, yeah, exactly. I met him all those years ago now, so.

Simon Sinek 2:12 Who are you before he comes, and who are you after? Like, what's the reset he gives you? I know I have certain-

Jay Shetty 2:17 Yeah

Simon Sinek 2:17 ... practices or friends-

Jay Shetty 2:19 Yes, yes

Simon Sinek 2:19 ... that who I am after they leave-

Jay Shetty 2:21 Yeah

Simon Sinek 2:21 ... is a slightly different version of who I am before.

Jay Shetty 2:23 Yes, yes.

Simon Sinek 2:23 And I'm curious who you are before him, and I'm curious... 'Cause you've done this now. He comes and sees you on a regular basis.

Jay Shetty 2:28 Yes, yes, yes.

Simon Sinek 2:28 So I'm assuming, obviously he's your friend and you wanna see him. Got that.

Jay Shetty 2:32 Yes.

Simon Sinek 2:32 But you're gonna go through a practice with him.

Jay Shetty 2:34 For sure. I'm the, the version of myself that I wanna be all the time when I'm with him, and before he comes, I'm 30% of that version.

Simon Sinek 2:44 And what is that? So what, when, when you're-

Jay Shetty 2:46 The 30%?

Simon Sinek 2:46 When you're, when you're with him and you're the best version of yourself-

Jay Shetty 2:49 Yeah

Simon Sinek 2:49 ... what is it that you're doing or not doing that you're only doing 30% well before?

Jay Shetty 2:53 I'm doing the same exact things, but the quality and the depth is greater by his association.

Simon Sinek 2:58 For example?

Jay Shetty 2:59 So if we're meditating, my attentiveness while meditating is 3x'd if I'm with him.

Simon Sinek 3:03 Got it.

Jay Shetty 3:04 If I'm reading scripture and spiritual texts, the depth of that revelation is 3x when I'm with him. If I'm reflecting on my own shortcomings and flaws and weaknesses and how I can improve, that's strengthened 3x when I'm with him. And so those are all the things. And my practice is the same. My morning will look the same. My day will practically look the same.

Simon Sinek 3:23 So he's a multiplier.

Jay Shetty 3:25 He's a multiplier, absolutely.

Simon Sinek 3:26 Got it.

Jay Shetty 3:26 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 3:26 And now what, what's keeping you up? What's causing you stress?

Jay Shetty 3:30 Hmm. I have to sit and think about that one for a second. Probably that there's not enough hours in the day, trying to fit everything in.

Simon Sinek 3:48 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 3:49 I'm gonna be on tour. My family's coming to see us at the same time because they're coming back from Japan, and so I won't get to see them-

Simon Sinek 3:56 Yeah

Jay Shetty 3:56 ... while I'm on tour. There's a million things that I wanna do, people I wanna see, friends I wanna spend more time with, relationships I wanna build, and-

Simon Sinek 4:03 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 4:03 ... there's just, there's just not enough hours in the day-

Simon Sinek 4:05 That's-

Jay Shetty 4:05 ... even if you're waking up early and, you know, sleeping late.

Simon Sinek 4:08 That, that's such a, you know... So what I love about time is it's the great equalizer, right?

Jay Shetty 4:12 Yes.

Simon Sinek 4:13 You know, people have f- unfair advantages and disadvantages across the board.

Jay Shetty 4:18 Yes.

Simon Sinek 4:18 But time is the great equalizer. And then so I'm always fascinated how people use time.

Jay Shetty 4:24 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 4:24 And I think it's fair to say that we are in, at least in America, at least in the West, we are productivity obsessed.

Jay Shetty 4:31 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 4:31 We judge ourselves and we judge each other based on how productive you are.

Jay Shetty 4:35 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 4:36 I think some of us got a reset during lockdown, but we've all gone back kinda to the way we were, right? And so are you good at stopping, or are you sort of a productivity machine that's constantly looking for life hacks, how you can get more out of a day, more out of yourself, more out of your team, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?

Jay Shetty 4:54 I'm both. So I absolutely love optimization and productivity.

Simon Sinek 4:58 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 4:58 I think it's one of the most intentional ways to actually live.

Simon Sinek 5:02 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 5:02 Because I think there's no intention in life if we're okay with wherever it goes. So I think from an intentionality perspective, strategy is a beautiful thing.

Simon Sinek 5:11 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 5:11 At the same time, I'm really fortunate that I've been able to train my mind to, if I was taking a break for the next three days, I would lock right in and have the ability to switch off completely from that life and not think

Jay Shetty 5:23 about it for the next three days, switch off.

Simon Sinek 5:23 So you're good at taking a holiday?

Jay Shetty 5:25 Yes.

Simon Sinek 5:25 So when you go away on a holiday-

Jay Shetty 5:26 Yes

Simon Sinek 5:27 ... you don't check your email.

Jay Shetty 5:28 No.

Simon Sinek 5:28 You don't call in.

Jay Shetty 5:29 Absolutely.

Simon Sinek 5:29 Nothing.

Jay Shetty 5:30 I, I can do it at the drop of a hat. So I log out for work every Christmas around the 15th of December, and then I won't log back in till the 15th of Jan. And I've done that for years now.

Simon Sinek 5:41 And you're not afraid of the, the influx of emails in the inbox?

Jay Shetty 5:43 Not at all, because everyone knows I give, uh, very short email replies [laughs]

Simon Sinek 5:49 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 5:49 And probably will not read most of them. So partly it's my ability to not be as harsh on myself.

Simon Sinek 5:55 How do you teach your team to do the same?

Jay Shetty 5:58 To switch off?

Simon Sinek 5:59 To switch off.

Jay Shetty 5:59 It's such an interesting thing, right? I mean, all the studies show we don't take enough holidays.

Simon Sinek 6:03 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 6:03 People don't take their vacation. I think the first thing is they need to see you do it.

Simon Sinek 6:07 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 6:07 I think if your team sees you do it-They see the value in it.

Simon Sinek 6:10 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 6:11 There was one member of my team actually who never took vacations, and if she did take a vacation, she'd be constantly online.

Simon Sinek 6:17 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 6:18 And she'd wanna check in, she'd wanna join the meeting, she'd wanna send an update. And I kept telling her that our work is not life or death. It's really important work, but it's not life or death.

Simon Sinek 6:27 Right.

Jay Shetty 6:27 And there is no need for her to have that level of urgency and availability. And for her, and it's different for everyone, for her, I had to convince her-

Simon Sinek 6:36 Yeah

Jay Shetty 6:37 ... that rest made her better f- at work.

Simon Sinek 6:41 Mm.

Jay Shetty 6:41 Because her driver-

Simon Sinek 6:43 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 6:43 ... her self-worth comes from being able to-

Simon Sinek 6:45 Yeah

Jay Shetty 6:45 ... work really well.

Simon Sinek 6:46 Sure.

Jay Shetty 6:46 That's what really moves the needle for her.

Simon Sinek 6:48 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 6:48 And so until she understood that actually when you rest, you refresh. When you rest, you sharpen. When you rest, you get stronger. That's what worked for her, and so I think it's figuring out what's driving people.

Simon Sinek 6:59 But the, okay, let's, I wanna, I wanna go deeper on that.

Jay Shetty 7:01 Yeah, please.

Simon Sinek 7:01 Because, because what you did was make a rational argument, which is if you rest, you'll be better, which is very, very rational, and all of us including her will agree.

Jay Shetty 7:11 Yes.

Simon Sinek 7:11 Right? But the problem is, is when you, when your self-worth comes from your productivity, rationally I can understand that rest is good for me and I will sh- sharpen my ax. Until I can separate my self-worth from my, my productivity, that's the part I wanna know, which is, which is how did you inspire her to do that? Because I've had that rational conversation with many people many times, but it's n- it's not about the convincing.

Jay Shetty 7:38 And I think that goes back to the example. I think what I said to her, I remember, was, "Hey, when I take that time off every year, I come back with my best ideas."

Simon Sinek 7:47 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 7:47 "I come back my most creative, my mo- most curious."

Simon Sinek 7:50 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 7:51 "I get the most time to read things I never thought I was interested in. Like, that gives me the space and time."

Simon Sinek 7:56 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 7:57 And so I think the example setting, there's a beautiful statement by St. Francis that I love, and he said, "Wherever you go, you should preach."

Simon Sinek 8:04 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 8:04 "Wherever you go, you should preach, and if necessary, open your mouth." And I love that because it's that idea-

Simon Sinek 8:10 Mm

Jay Shetty 8:10 ... that simply by our example, simply by the way we live, I think people get moved by that.

Simon Sinek 8:15 Mm.

Jay Shetty 8:15 And especially if you're a leader.

Simon Sinek 8:17 Mm.

Jay Shetty 8:17 I think that's one of the biggest challenges today is that we as leaders, it's, it's funny, but I'm sure you get this too, like I'll get parents saying to me, "I really want my kids to not be so materialistic," and they're holding a Louis Vuitton handbag in their hand.

Simon Sinek 8:30 Mm.

Jay Shetty 8:30 Or like, "I really want my kids to be this way."

Simon Sinek 8:32 Mm.

Jay Shetty 8:32 Or like someone said to me, like, "I really want my kids to, like, wake up early and work out. I really want my kids to listen to your stuff." And I said, "Hey, do you listen to it when you drive them to school every day?" And they were like, "No." Like, and I was like, "Well, that would make it easier," right?

Simon Sinek 8:44 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 8:44 Like, your kids are at that age where you decide what's on the radio or-

Simon Sinek 8:47 Yeah, of course

Jay Shetty 8:47 ... what goes on. And so I think a really simple way to inspire the people around us is for them to see it in us.

Simon Sinek 8:52 Yeah. Uh, what, what I did, m- I did this, I implemented many years ago, which is I simply said to the team that if, if you send an email while you're on holiday, I'll take you out of the bonus pool. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 9:04 [laughs] That's so good.

Simon Sinek 9:07 [laughs] That works really-

Jay Shetty 9:09 Wow, I can imagine them like, every day

Simon Sinek 9:10 ... that works out really well.

Jay Shetty 9:12 That's brilliant.

Simon Sinek 9:12 Works out really well. I remember I sent one email-

Jay Shetty 9:14 Yeah

Simon Sinek 9:14 ... to somebody when I was on a holiday.

Jay Shetty 9:16 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 9:16 And she wrote back to me, "What is so important that you're willing to sacrifice your bonus to talk to me right now?" [laughs]

Jay Shetty 9:21 [laughs] That's so good. I love that. That's a brilliant one.

Simon Sinek 9:24 So that works, that works really well too.

Jay Shetty 9:25 Yeah. I mean, it d- it doesn't detach their self-worth, but it definitely stops them from pressing send.

Simon Sinek 9:30 But it, but it makes the discovery, right? Which is, which is by, by creating the incent- I'm aligning the incentive structure-

Jay Shetty 9:36 Yes

Simon Sinek 9:36 ... with the behavior that I want.

Jay Shetty 9:37 Yes.

Simon Sinek 9:37 Or in this case, disincentive.

Jay Shetty 9:38 Yes.

Simon Sinek 9:39 And, and what it does is it helps them turn off and relax-

Jay Shetty 9:42 Yeah

Simon Sinek 9:42 ... and they discover, 'cause you know this, you, it takes a few days to, like, decompress.

Jay Shetty 9:46 Yes. Oh, it does, yeah.

Simon Sinek 9:47 And then, then the holiday starts.

Jay Shetty 9:48 Yeah, yeah. For sure. For-

Simon Sinek 9:49 Um, so like a day off-

Jay Shetty 9:50 Yeah

Simon Sinek 9:50 ... is great-

Jay Shetty 9:51 Yeah

Simon Sinek 9:51 ... but it doesn't do it.

Jay Shetty 9:52 Absolutely.

Simon Sinek 9:53 It doesn't do it.

Jay Shetty 9:53 Absolutely.

Simon Sinek 9:55 So

Simon Sinek 9:57 I, I'm very curious because, now how long w- did you do the monk thing?

Jay Shetty 10:00 Three years.

Simon Sinek 10:02 And why'd you quit? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 10:04 Oh, yeah. I mean-

Simon Sinek 10:04 Maybe did I put it-

Jay Shetty 10:05 So many [laughs]

Simon Sinek 10:05 ... I mean, is quit the wrong word?

Jay Shetty 10:06 Yeah, it's, it's-

Simon Sinek 10:06 Like, why did you decide to come back-

Jay Shetty 10:07 It's like asking someone why did you get divorced. That's, that's the kind of question it is.

Simon Sinek 10:10 I, I apologize for the word choice. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 10:11 No, no, no. No, no, no. It's a g- it's a good question, but I'm saying, like, that's what, it felt like a divorce.

Simon Sinek 10:17 Okay.

Jay Shetty 10:17 Like, that's how it felt.

Simon Sinek 10:17 So what was the impetus to do it in the first place?

Jay Shetty 10:20 Falling in love.

Simon Sinek 10:20 How old were you?

Jay Shetty 10:21 I was, I became a monk after I graduated, so 21 going on 22.

Simon Sinek 10:24 Okay, so you're at university.

Jay Shetty 10:26 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 10:26 And you're like, "You know what? Finance is not for me."

Jay Shetty 10:29 Yes.

Simon Sinek 10:29 "It's the monk life I want."

Jay Shetty 10:30 Yes. And, and the reason for doing it was as simple to demystify it was my role models became monks. As soon as I met the monks-

Simon Sinek 10:39 Oh

Jay Shetty 10:39 ... in my late teenage years, the role models became monks. I was so inspired by the way they lived because they told me that they were focused on two things. One was mastering the mind and serving others. And I thought, "What better pursuits in the world than mastering your emotions, your envy, your jealousy, your greed, your lust, your anger, and your illusion, and the ability to use all your gifts and skills in the service of others?"

Simon Sinek 11:02 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 11:02 And I'd also met CEOs and finance directors and hedge fund managers, and just at that time, no one really spoke to me the way they did. And so I think it was the first real male role models I had that inspired that path. And then what made me leave was the realization that I couldn't do it. Like, the actual realization that monk training is meant to make you self-aware through all of that training, and when you get that much self-awareness and realize that I'm not a monk in my own self-awareness, it's probably the harshest thing. So it's almost like saying, "I wanna love you for the rest of my life, but by loving you, I realized that's not where I'm meant to be." And that was shown to me physically and emotionally. So physically, my health broke down. It was super tough on my body. It was really hard to live communally. You're often sleeping in rooms of 30 to 100 people, whether it's flus, viruses, people getting up at different times. I'm a light sleeper, all of that on the body. And then emotionally and mentally, I was like, "I'm more of a rebel. I'm, I like the rules, but I want them to fit into my life this way, and I like the discipline, but I'd prefer to tweak it a little." And that, that honesty of I'm someone who wants to make these teachings more pliable into my own life-As someone who believes I'm a modern person from London, and I'd love to help other people do that too, so-

Simon Sinek 12:16 But what's interesting-

Jay Shetty 12:17 That's the quick answer

Simon Sinek 12:18 ... I mean, but what's impressive is you lasted three years.

Jay Shetty 12:20 Yes. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 12:21 I'm not sure I would've lasted three months.

Jay Shetty 12:23 I'm glad I lasted three years. Yeah, it was, it was s- well, I wanted to do it for the rest of my life. It was a genuine desire to do it forever.

Simon Sinek 12:31 Mm.

Jay Shetty 12:31 And when it came crashing down three years later, I really felt like a failure. It didn't feel like a success then.

Simon Sinek 12:36 Mm.

Jay Shetty 12:37 Now looking back, I think three years was great-

Simon Sinek 12:39 Mm

Jay Shetty 12:39 ... but at that time, leaving was the worst feeling.

Simon Sinek 12:43 Did you go through a depression afterwards?

Jay Shetty 12:44 Definitely, definitely. I'd say for like, I didn't even wanna admit it. I was one of those people that actually didn't wanna say the word because I was so scared that it would define me and not help me-

Simon Sinek 12:54 The D-

Jay Shetty 12:54 ... define me.

Simon Sinek 12:54 The D word.

Jay Shetty 12:55 Yeah, and so I left it out of my vocabulary. But when I look back, I think there was at least a year that I was just figuring it out, and I think a lot of that came because when I came out, I just went back to all my old habits for the first 30 days. I was eating everything again, I was watching everything again, I was listening to music that I wasn't before. I was kinda just back into my... I caught up with the whole, what, all of the seasons of How I Met Your Mother that I'd missed. I [laughs]

Simon Sinek 13:21 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 13:21 I ate like a slab of Cadbury's Dairy Milk chocolate. I was listening to Drake. It was just one of those things, and then after that month I started looking at my life going, "No, I've got the tools-

Simon Sinek 13:31 Mm

Jay Shetty 13:32 ... to figure this life out."

Simon Sinek 13:33 Mm.

Jay Shetty 13:33 "But if I see them as two separate lives, then I would've wasted

Jay Shetty 13:37 those three years."

Simon Sinek 13:37 So what, what, what are three tools you learned that every college, uh-

Jay Shetty 13:43 Mm

Simon Sinek 13:43 ... graduate should learn without having to go to be a monk for three years?

Jay Shetty 13:47 Oh, what a great question. Uh, the first one is stop looking at your reflection so much. I think right now in the world we're overexposed to how we look more than we ever have been before. So in the monastery there were no mirrors. You rarely saw how you look. It was only when you went outside and you looked at your reflection in a shop window or whatever it may have been, that you remembered what you looked like. There was this real feeling of I've forgotten my physical appearance.

Simon Sinek 14:18 Mm.

Jay Shetty 14:18 I've forgotten my sense of age, or I've forgotten my scrutiny and analysis that we all have in the morning when we wake up and we say, "Oh, I look ugly today. I look tired today. I look, too many spots on my face. I, you know, I've got these bags under my eyes," this constant harsh negative criticism, inner talk, inner critic that we have. I think there's an overexposure. I don't think we were meant to record ourselves and watch ourselves back as many times as we do. I don't think we were meant to look at ourselves on mirrors, screens, reflections in every possible object, and I think it's made us so physically conscious-

Simon Sinek 14:51 Mm

Jay Shetty 14:52 ... and physically analytical-

Simon Sinek 14:53 Mm

Jay Shetty 14:54 ... that we don't actually have time to think about the emotional, the spiritual, the psychological. We don't have as much space, and then the physical, psychological, emotional gets filled up-

Simon Sinek 15:04 Mm

Jay Shetty 15:04 ... with analyzing the physical, and therefore we analyze other people more, too. Before we didn't see as many-

Simon Sinek 15:09 Mm

Jay Shetty 15:09 ... people.

Simon Sinek 15:10 Mm.

Jay Shetty 15:10 And so I think now we're overexposed, overthinking, overanalyzing, uh, but not over our exes. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 15:16 It's so tr- it's so true, right? Like you're sitting on a Zoom call-

Jay Shetty 15:19 Yeah

Simon Sinek 15:19 ... noticing yourself and cor-

Jay Shetty 15:21 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 15:21 ... and correcting your angle and-

Jay Shetty 15:22 Even now I'm correcting myself. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 15:23 You, you know, you... But, but like you weren't looking at yourself correcting yourself w- while you're on a Zoom, uh, supposed- supposedly in a meeting. But you c- but if you're in a physical meeting you don't do that. You don't sort of correct the angle of your head to make yourself look a little bit better in a meeting.

Jay Shetty 15:37 Exactly. Exactly.

Simon Sinek 15:37 But you do in a Zoom call.

Jay Shetty 15:38 Exactly that.

Simon Sinek 15:39 That's funny.

Jay Shetty 15:39 And that self-correcting, that self-editing, we... Not that you shouldn't be well-presented.

Simon Sinek 15:44 Sure, sure.

Jay Shetty 15:44 I like, I take care of myself, I guess.

Simon Sinek 15:46 You're talking about scale. It's, it's just-

Jay Shetty 15:47 I'm feeling like... Exactly

Simon Sinek 15:47 ... balance.

Jay Shetty 15:48 Yes.

Simon Sinek 15:48 It's out of balance.

Jay Shetty 15:48 Exactly. So I think that's a big one.

Simon Sinek 15:50 Yes.

Jay Shetty 15:50 Not having mirrors, and not having mirrors in the monastery was just one of the most freeing things in the world.

Simon Sinek 15:55 Mm.

Jay Shetty 15:55 Uh, you know, I can't even put into words. It was really powerful. Uh, the second thing I'd say is, uh, location has energy and time has memory, so when you do something at the same time every day, your mind keeps a memory of it so it becomes easier. And when you do something in the same place every day, your mind makes a memory of it, and that space has an energy so it becomes easier. So we would meditate in the same place every day. I was just back at the monastery in January, where I go back every year to start my year, and it was so interesting because today, you know, every day away from meditating that deeply, you sense the weakness of the quality of your meditation. But even now, when I close my eyes, I can be in that room that I meditate in.

Simon Sinek 16:41 Mm.

Jay Shetty 16:41 I can channel the energy of that space.

Simon Sinek 16:43 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 16:44 And there's a reason why we all feel certain things when we go to certain places.

Simon Sinek 16:47 Mm.

Jay Shetty 16:47 You ever been to a place and you're like, "This place is eerie, it's spooky."

Simon Sinek 16:50 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 16:50 "This place is historic and powerful." I remember going to, um, you know, I remember going to, uh, the, the Wailing Wall and places, what, in 2017 now, and it's like that place had a palpable energy. Like you can't, y- whether you're spiritual, religious or not-

Simon Sinek 17:09 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 17:10 ... you feel it there. And so I think we all know that there are places all across the world where we've felt something. Why not create those places in our home? And so the construction of energy in a place is something I think we undervalue. We undervalue how sight, scent, and sound can construct an energy. For example, if you had a candle that burns every day when you switch off from work, that scent-

Simon Sinek 17:33 Mm

Jay Shetty 17:33 ... will lock you into feeling-

Simon Sinek 17:35 Mm

Jay Shetty 17:35 ... like work is over.

Simon Sinek 17:36 Mm.

Jay Shetty 17:37 If you have a quote by your desk that you read at the beginning of your day, you'll feel that your day is starting.

Simon Sinek 17:42 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 17:42 If you have a sound, like a gong which we had in the monastery, or if you have a chime or a, uh, a song that you like to wake up to or cook to-

Simon Sinek 17:51 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 17:51 ... automatically it puts you in that zone.

Simon Sinek 17:52 So basically we're classically conditioning ourselves.

Jay Shetty 17:55 Correct.

Simon Sinek 17:55 It's good old-fashioned B.F. Skinner, right, which is-

Jay Shetty 17:58 Correct

Simon Sinek 17:58 ... which is I hear this sound, I smell the smell, I'm in this space, and I've done it enough times that I'm now salivating to the sound of the bell.

Jay Shetty 18:05 Correct. But today we don't-

Simon Sinek 18:06 Metaphori- metaphorically

Jay Shetty 18:07 ... we, we kind of don't use any of those things. I feel like you kind of-

Simon Sinek 18:10 It's very clever to, to, to, to train ourselves into the right mindset for the day.

Jay Shetty 18:15 Exactly. Or different part-- Like let's say you live in an apartment.How do you make different corners of your apartment have different scents, sounds, and sights-

Simon Sinek 18:23 Interesting

Jay Shetty 18:23 ... if that's the only space you have? I remember when me and my wife lived in New York, we had a 600 square foot apartment, and one corner was a meditation corner.

Simon Sinek 18:31 Mm.

Jay Shetty 18:32 We're grateful today to have a meditation room, but at the time it was a meditation corner.

Simon Sinek 18:36 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 18:36 It was a TV corner. And I think the challenge has become that today we eat where we're meant to sleep, we sleep where we're meant to work-

Simon Sinek 18:44 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 18:44 ... and we work where we're meant to eat.

Simon Sinek 18:46 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 18:46 So the energy-

Simon Sinek 18:47 It's confused

Jay Shetty 18:47 ... of our kitchen doesn't allow us to digest. The energy of our bed doesn't allow us to rest. The energy of our workspace doesn't allow us to feel alert.

Simon Sinek 18:56 I mean, sleep experts know this. Don't associate things that keep you awake with your bed.

Jay Shetty 19:02 Yes.

Simon Sinek 19:02 No televisions in a bedroom.

Jay Shetty 19:03 Yeah, no screens.

Simon Sinek 19:04 No screens in the bedroom. And it's not just for the blue light or, uh, i- it's, it's the association. And people who suffer from, um, insomnia, if you can't sleep, you can't sleep, you're tossing and turning, you're supposed to get out of bed, ideally go to another room or at least go sit in another part of your room, then you can be on your phone, read a book, get tired, get back into bed-

Jay Shetty 19:24 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 19:25 ... and reassociate bed with tired.

Jay Shetty 19:27 Yes.

Simon Sinek 19:28 Um-

Jay Shetty 19:28 Yes, exactly that. Exactly that.

Simon Sinek 19:30 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 19:30 It's just... And it's simple, right? It's really simple and it's really doable. You don't have to build a new habit or learn a new skill or learn how to meditate. Like, these are things we all feel.

Simon Sinek 19:40 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 19:40 And sight, scent, and sounds are all things we feel and, you know, you can tell it's tangible.

Simon Sinek 19:44 Yeah, yeah. Okay, the third one?

Jay Shetty 19:45 Um, the third one-

Simon Sinek 19:46 So-

Jay Shetty 19:46 ... I have to say, what would I go with? There was a beautiful freezing of time that happened. I had no thought of how old I was, that I had to get a job, that I had to find my meaning in life, that I had to suddenly find a relationship.

Simon Sinek 20:08 God, you sound like a deadbeat living in your parents' attic.

Jay Shetty 20:10 Yeah, exactly.

Simon Sinek 20:10 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 20:10 That's really what it was. And, and, and there was a beauty in that, that time froze.

Simon Sinek 20:15 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:15 That there wasn't this pressure that we all feel through timelines and deadlines and clocks-

Simon Sinek 20:21 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 20:21 ... that we all think we have ticking that are imaginary in your 20s.

Simon Sinek 20:25 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:25 In your 20s, you shouldn't feel like the clock is ticking.

Simon Sinek 20:27 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:27 You should feel like there is no clock, and that you can make choices and mistakes and fail and learn. And so I had three years where I didn't think about what birthday it was. I didn't think about what all my friends were doing. I didn't think about whether they bought an apartment, got promoted, or lost their job. It just wasn't-

Simon Sinek 20:43 Yeah

Jay Shetty 20:43 ... what I was thinking about. I could think about mastering my emotions-

Simon Sinek 20:46 Yeah

Jay Shetty 20:46 ... and helping other people.

Simon Sinek 20:47 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:48 Which felt like worthy pursuits.

Simon Sinek 20:49 This is, this is... I like this one-

Jay Shetty 20:50 Yeah

Simon Sinek 20:50 ... because I think especially now because productivity and what are you doing and getting ahead and all of these things are such the priority for so many young people. I love the concept of the gap year, which is fairly common in Europe.

Jay Shetty 20:59 Yes.

Simon Sinek 20:59 But in America, w- I, when I talk to young people, I'm like, "Why don't you take a gap year before you, you know, get a job or go to college, whatever your, whatever your direction is?" And I get the same answer every time, "If I do, I'll fall behind."

Jay Shetty 21:09 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 21:10 Fall behind what?

Jay Shetty 21:11 Yes.

Simon Sinek 21:11 Fall behind whom?

Jay Shetty 21:12 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 21:12 You know? And, like, we are now con- we're now thinking of life like a race.

Jay Shetty 21:18 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 21:18 Like, I have to have a title before my friends have it. I have to have a salary level before my friends have them, uh, before my friends have it. And so if I take time off, I will miss out or I will lose out.

Jay Shetty 21:29 Yes.

Simon Sinek 21:29 And it goes back to the rationale of your, uh, of your teammate who wouldn't take a holiday, which is that gap year will give you a clarity and a rest and a conviction that you won't-- it'll take you five or 10 years in the workforce to get, if you ever get it.

Jay Shetty 21:44 So awesome.

Simon Sinek 21:45 But a, a year to get a job that is outside of your, you know, norm or travel or get an internship just completely in some ridiculous place or whatever it is, it's, it's, I think... Yeah.

Jay Shetty 22:00 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 22:00 That's really interesting. So just to summarize then, the question was really specific, which is-

Jay Shetty 22:04 Yes

Simon Sinek 22:04 ... you, you were of college age.

Jay Shetty 22:06 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 22:07 You took three years off to go what you hoped to become a monk-

Jay Shetty 22:11 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 22:11 ... but you, it changed direction, but it was still super, super valuable to you. And so w- what is the reason that you picked, um, no mirrors? What's the reason you picked space in your home to associate with feelings?

Jay Shetty 22:25 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 22:25 What's the reason-- the third one is t- frozen time. Why is it that those three things are the three things that, you know, people who are graduating high school need to know above ev- above all else?

Jay Shetty 22:35 The first one, because I think it goes back to what I'm saying, that we're so overexposed visually.

Simon Sinek 22:40 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 22:40 And everything's become about how we look to other people, how we're perceived. We're living our life based on what people think of us. We overvalue people's opinions. We don't trust our inner voice. We don't have a sense of what we're thinking about apart from what people think of us.

Simon Sinek 22:54 Right.

Jay Shetty 22:55 Like, that's where we're locked, especially at that age. And by the way, I'm not immune to any of this. Like, I still do it today [laughs] and I felt it even when I was that, that age. It was just having that lesson, that time-

Simon Sinek 23:06 So by, by trying to eliminate it, which you won't-

Jay Shetty 23:08 Correct

Simon Sinek 23:08 ... you're more likely to find the balance, and in so doing, uh, you will be able to trust your gut to make better decisions-

Jay Shetty 23:18 Yes

Simon Sinek 23:18 ... to not be seduced by the wrong things for superficial reasons-

Jay Shetty 23:22 Yes

Simon Sinek 23:23 ... and m- make decisions for the rest of your life that hopefully are clearer.

Jay Shetty 23:27 Yes. I like that.

Simon Sinek 23:28 Okay. Got it.

Jay Shetty 23:28 Yeah, that's the first one.

Simon Sinek 23:29 Okay.

Jay Shetty 23:29 The second one, because I think at that age you don't really know what your morning routine is. You don't really know how you use space and time.

Simon Sinek 23:37 Unless you're an athlete or something like that.

Jay Shetty 23:39 Yeah, unless, unless you have-- Yeah, exactly, unless you have a pursuit that-

Simon Sinek 23:42 Right

Jay Shetty 23:42 ... aligns with that, you don't really know how to use your space well.

Simon Sinek 23:45 Right.

Jay Shetty 23:45 And I think you can set yourself up for really bad habits, especially now.

Simon Sinek 23:49 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 23:49 In our time, you didn't have the phone, you didn't have a laptop, or if you did, you didn't have the access to what you do today.

Simon Sinek 23:54 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 23:54 I think you can set yourself up to have an incredible sense of discipline-

Simon Sinek 23:59 Yeah

Jay Shetty 23:59 ... earlier on, which will-- By the way, that's the reason people fall behind.People don't fall behind because someone got promoted before them.

Simon Sinek 24:05 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:06 They fall behind because they don't have a discipline of a morning routine, a life that creates a moment of rest and refuel for them. That's why we fall behind. We fall behind because we take five years off trying to rehabilitate ourself because we work so hard-

Simon Sinek 24:21 Yeah

Jay Shetty 24:21 ... and burn out. That's how we fall behind.

Simon Sinek 24:23 So, and so this is really interesting, which is go ahead and look at your Instagram, but only do it on one chair.

Jay Shetty 24:28 [laughs] Yeah.

Simon Sinek 24:28 In that corner. That's your Instagram chair.

Jay Shetty 24:30 Yes. I literally have my... So I have my phone.

Simon Sinek 24:32 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 24:32 This is, no, this is really good. I like what you said. I have my phone, which is kept on my vanity table, and funny we call it that, but, but on that table, and I only look at my phone when I'm standing there. So I have to stand too. I don't let myself sit with my phone.

Simon Sinek 24:48 Mm.

Jay Shetty 24:48 Because I know as soon as I sit with my phone-

Simon Sinek 24:50 It's over

Jay Shetty 24:50 ... that two-minute check-

Simon Sinek 24:51 Game over

Jay Shetty 24:51 ... can go forever. So I have my phone strategically in a place where I can't sit with it.

Simon Sinek 24:56 That's clever.

Jay Shetty 24:57 And so I, I agree with you on that point. Like, it, it helps so much to have one place you can lock in and don't have things that trigger you. Like, for example, I have another trick that helps me. I have an open book that I like in different areas. So I have an open book next to my bed, which is a book I like to fall asleep to. I have an open book in my living room, so that I'm more likely to pick that. We've taken out TVs of every room apart from one space where me and my wife will watch TV.

Simon Sinek 25:23 The TV room.

Jay Shetty 25:23 Yeah, the, yeah, having a space.

Simon Sinek 25:25 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 25:25 Exactly. And so-

Simon Sinek 25:26 Or the TV nook.

Jay Shetty 25:27 Yeah, the TV nook, exactly. But I think the idea of I just keep open books everywhere, and that inspires me to pick up the book even when I'm feeling tired rather than the idea of, oh gosh, I've got to think about picking it up and figuring it out.

Simon Sinek 25:38 Oh, I like this. You know what that's the very intellectual version of?

Jay Shetty 25:42 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 25:42 Um, which is, you know, I was just having this conversation with somebody the other day, which is, you know, we're always on our phones when we're eating, you know, especially if we're by ourselves, and they were saying, they were, my friend was complaining about like, "Why can't we just sit and be present?" And I was like, "Whoa, we did this before the phone."

Jay Shetty 25:57 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 25:57 "It was called the cereal box."

Jay Shetty 25:58 [laughs] Yeah.

Simon Sinek 25:59 Like, I sat every morning eating my cereal-

Jay Shetty 26:01 That's a good one

Simon Sinek 26:01 ... and I read the cereal box. You know, if there were jokes or little... And then you f- you're done with that and you start reading the ingredients.

Jay Shetty 26:09 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 26:09 And it's just to pass the time.

Jay Shetty 26:10 Yes.

Simon Sinek 26:11 Of, and, and so this is the hyper intellectualized version of this.

Jay Shetty 26:14 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 26:14 Which is I'm just reading whatever there is to read-

Jay Shetty 26:17 Yes

Simon Sinek 26:17 ... which is the cereal box. But I, I love the idea of having an open book or a couple of open books on, on the wherever you eat.

Jay Shetty 26:24 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 26:24 And you just sit down to eat, and if you, if you're disciplined enough not to have your phone with you, that you just sort of lean over and read whatever's in front of you-

Jay Shetty 26:32 Exactly. Yeah

Simon Sinek 26:32 ... 'cause it's in front of you.

Jay Shetty 26:33 Yeah, exactly.

Simon Sinek 26:33 Not because you have the discipline to read.

Jay Shetty 26:35 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 26:35 I really like that.

Jay Shetty 26:36 Yeah, you trick yourself into it, right?

Simon Sinek 26:38 You trick yourself into it.

Jay Shetty 26:38 It's like the, it's, I thought you were gonna say it's like the-

Simon Sinek 26:40 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 26:40 ... over intellectualized version of I've ta- I've heard people say that, "Hey, I just leave my yoga mat, like, out next to my bed so that the moment I roll out of bed, I can go straight to doing yoga."

Simon Sinek 26:49 I just walk over to the yoga mat and-

Jay Shetty 26:51 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 26:52 That does nothing for me.

Jay Shetty 26:53 Or like, yeah, or you have your gym kit picked out the night before.

Simon Sinek 26:55 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 26:55 But it's like w- how are you trick- how are you making sure that you trick yourself into doing what you want to do-

Simon Sinek 27:01 Yeah

Jay Shetty 27:01 ... rather than all the things that you regret after you do them?

Simon Sinek 27:04 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 27:04 I don't ever scroll my phone for two hours and feel, wow, I'm so glad I just spent my time in the most amazing way. I almost can feel guilty and shameful and feel like I wasted time or I should have been doing something meaningful. So why not trick myself into doing the thing that's actually gonna give me the feeling that I'm looking for?

Simon Sinek 27:21 Very clever. So, okay, change of tack now.

Jay Shetty 27:24 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 27:24 Let's talk about meditation.

Jay Shetty 27:25 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 27:26 More importantly, the perception of meditation in the Western world. And so the way I think about meditation, yes, there are tremendous benefits to the self for meditation. We know this. Science proves it.

Jay Shetty 27:34 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 27:35 You know, you, you, you preach it. Where I get cynical is we've turned meditation into an entirely selfish pursuit, and worse, a business. Buy my thing so you can meditate. Pay money so that you can meditate. And in the West, we sort of, I think we've kind of lost the plot, you know, of, A, what the value of these s- Eastern spiritual practices are, and in a very American fashion, found a business model to fit it. I'd love for you to just, somebody who did it purely in, in, in India, you know, just I'd love for you to react to that.

Jay Shetty 28:14 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 28:14 Like, do you get frustrated when you see basically an onslaught of businesses selling what is a spiritual practice? It's like the selling of indulgences-

Jay Shetty 28:25 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 28:25 ... you know, to get into heaven. You know? It's like I think you missed the point here.

Jay Shetty 28:28 So yeah, there's, there's two sides to it.

Simon Sinek 28:30 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 28:30 One is that, one is that I genuinely believe that ideally if every human learned how to meditate at school-

Simon Sinek 28:41 Yeah

Jay Shetty 28:42 ... and it was part of the system-

Simon Sinek 28:43 Then we'd have no need for it

Jay Shetty 28:44 ... then we'd have no need for it.

Simon Sinek 28:45 Mm.

Jay Shetty 28:45 And that would be the solve. I would, by the way, love to be able to figure out how to do that. I think it should be something that's free, ideally, for everyone in the world. It should be a tool, but so is emotional mastery and resilience and intelligence.

Simon Sinek 28:58 Yeah, it's teach-

Jay Shetty 28:58 Like-

Simon Sinek 28:58 But, yeah, it's to your point, it's teaching the-

Jay Shetty 28:58 Everything you talk about-

Simon Sinek 28:59 ... it's teaching the skill, right?

Jay Shetty 29:00 It's teaching the skill.

Simon Sinek 29:01 Okay. So it's about accountability. If you pay money for it, you're more likely to do it.

Jay Shetty 29:04 I think the challenge is now that school hasn't done that-

Simon Sinek 29:08 Right

Jay Shetty 29:08 ... and so school hasn't served its purpose on that level, we now liv- by the way, and this applies to everything. School didn't teach us how to figure out our taxes, so now we have to figure out how to do that.

Simon Sinek 29:18 Fair point.

Jay Shetty 29:18 School didn't teach us how to-

Simon Sinek 29:19 Fair point

Jay Shetty 29:20 ... whatever it may be.

Simon Sinek 29:21 Fair point.

Jay Shetty 29:21 And so we're having to compensate for the lack of t- training and teaching that we got. And I think that if everyone was expected to go sit on a mountaintop or take time out, it's not accessible to everyone.

Simon Sinek 29:35 Right.

Jay Shetty 29:35 What I got to do was-

Simon Sinek 29:37 It's not practical

Jay Shetty 29:37 ... even though my parents, uh, are not necessarily well-to-do, I still had the opportunity to even-

Simon Sinek 29:43 Yeah

Jay Shetty 29:43 ... think about doing that, where a lot of people I know wouldn't have the opportunity-

Simon Sinek 29:47 Yeah

Jay Shetty 29:47 ... to do that. And so for me, there are certain platforms, and obviously I've worked with Calm for a long time.

Simon Sinek 29:51 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:51 I've, I'm their chief purpose officer, and for me, Calm found a way, like Calm's annual membership is $42 a year.

Simon Sinek 29:58 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:59 So to me, that's the closest thing I could do-

Simon Sinek 30:01 But I, I, no, but I-

Jay Shetty 30:02 ... to free, yeah

Simon Sinek 30:02 ... I, I think that's very fair.

Jay Shetty 30:04 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 30:04 In our Western capitalist society, you know, and I know this from my own work-

Jay Shetty 30:08 Yeah

Simon Sinek 30:08 ... which is when I was starting out and I was doing why discoveries for people, and whenever I gave it away for free, they implemented zero.

Jay Shetty 30:15 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 30:15 And whenever I charged them-They implemented it

Jay Shetty 30:18 Correct

Simon Sinek 30:18 Because when they have skin in the game, they wanted to get their mo- their money's worth

Jay Shetty 30:22 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 30:22 And so I, I think I've got the wrong construction, which is it's not about paid or not paid, it's about skin in the game

Jay Shetty 30:28 Yes

Simon Sinek 30:28 And, and, and in our society, that generally is money

Jay Shetty 30:33 Totally. And I-

Simon Sinek 30:33 But a skin in the game is like I have a, a, a family member who's s- struggling or I'm struggling

Jay Shetty 30:40 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 30:41 And the skin in the game is, is repair

Jay Shetty 30:42 Yes

Simon Sinek 30:43 Then, uh, so I, okay. I, that's, that's fair

Jay Shetty 30:46 And, and also the idea that-

Simon Sinek 30:47 I think that's fair

Jay Shetty 30:47 Yeah. No, no, no. I, I mean, it's a great conversation by the way. I love having this conversation because-

Simon Sinek 30:51 I'm just a cynical bastard, isn't it? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 30:52 Yeah. No, no, no. But I think these are really great questions to ask. And I remember, so during the pandemic, I did around, I think it was like 40 days of daily meditation on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube live

Simon Sinek 31:02 Yeah

Jay Shetty 31:03 I wasn't selling anything, promoting anything

Simon Sinek 31:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 31:05 It was truly because I was like, I felt like I had nothing to offer during the pandemic because I couldn't save anyone or, or, you know, change my day job. So that's what I did, and it was amazing. Across 40 days, maybe 20 million people tuned in. It was insane. It was one of the best things I've ever done. It was so much fun, and it was so meaningful to share that space. Those lives are still available on YouTube-

Simon Sinek 31:25 Yeah

Jay Shetty 31:25 ... and everywhere else, and people do them all the time. What I found is, and that was great, and I'll do it again, and I'll, I'll do it often. But what I found is that when you can help people-

Simon Sinek 31:34 Yeah

Jay Shetty 31:34 ... measure, note, get an update on-

Simon Sinek 31:37 Yeah

Jay Shetty 31:37 ... what they're doing, it helps them do it better

Simon Sinek 31:40 Yeah

Jay Shetty 31:40 And when something's accessible in that way, you can't build-

Simon Sinek 31:44 Yeah

Jay Shetty 31:44 ... the educational pattern that you want to build for them

Simon Sinek 31:47 Yeah

Jay Shetty 31:47 Like I couldn't tell those 20 million people whether they completed one-

Simon Sinek 31:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 31:50 ... how they could do it better, which one they should try, like all of that that comes with it

Simon Sinek 31:54 Yeah. But by the way-

Jay Shetty 31:55 Which I think our purpose and-

Simon Sinek 31:55 ... this is not, this is not a criticism of you at all

Jay Shetty 31:56 Oh, no, no. I didn't think it was

Simon Sinek 31:57 Like, I, like-

Jay Shetty 31:58 I, I didn't take it that way

Simon Sinek 31:58 ... I'm just curious on-

Jay Shetty 31:59 I didn't take it that way

Simon Sinek 32:00 ... on your commentary on Western world-

Jay Shetty 32:02 Yeah

Simon Sinek 32:02 ... that we took, like, uh, the, you know, the, here's, here's the example, the Toyota Way

Jay Shetty 32:07 Yes

Simon Sinek 32:07 Right? So the Toyota Way is a philosophy of how Japanese car builders make cars

Jay Shetty 32:13 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 32:13 And all, you know, you hear about Kaizen and sort of these kinds of things that come out of that

Jay Shetty 32:18 Yes

Simon Sinek 32:18 And American academics, I think it was from Harvard, went to Japan, they studied the Toyota Way, and they came back to bring it back to America, and they, ugh, and they called it Lean

Jay Shetty 32:34 Right

Simon Sinek 32:34 Right?

Jay Shetty 32:34 Yeah

Simon Sinek 32:35 They rebranded it Lean. And companies that have implemented Lean have... I talked to one of the guys who brought it back from Harvard and I said, "Can you give me one example of an American company that suc- successfully implemented Lean?" He says, "Oh, there are many." I said, "I believe you. Tell me one." Right? And he couldn't because we screwed it up. We made something that is a philosophy about constant improvement-

Jay Shetty 32:58 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 32:58 ... and we turned it into efficiency

Jay Shetty 33:00 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 33:01 And those are not the same thing

Jay Shetty 33:02 Not the same thing

Simon Sinek 33:03 And we turned constant improvement into efficiency, right? And, uh, that's, that's the analogy

Jay Shetty 33:07 Yes

Simon Sinek 33:08 Like-

Jay Shetty 33:08 That's a great analogy

Simon Sinek 33:08 That's the analogy, which is it's not a criticism of whether something is charged or not charged. When we take something that has one kind of intention-

Jay Shetty 33:16 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 33:17 ... and because of our Western lens, we change that intention, we're accidentally ruining the product, right? And so it doesn't work quite as well. It works-

Jay Shetty 33:30 Yeah

Simon Sinek 33:30 ... and so I'm more curious-

Jay Shetty 33:31 Yes, great question

Simon Sinek 33:32 ... about your commentary because you have done both-

Jay Shetty 33:35 Yeah

Simon Sinek 33:35 ... and you do live in both, and there's, and you've seen the value of both. I'm just curious about your commentary about where's the balance and how do we do it-

Jay Shetty 33:43 Yeah

Simon Sinek 33:43 ... or is it fine because it works well enough?

Jay Shetty 33:46 Yeah. No. So I, so I think there's... I, I love that, and thank you for that. That, that's so helpful to-

Simon Sinek 33:50 That's where my mind is

Jay Shetty 33:51 That's a great thought exercise

Simon Sinek 33:52 That was, that's the context for the question

Jay Shetty 33:53 It's a great exercise

Simon Sinek 33:54 That's the context of the question

Jay Shetty 33:55 A great, great thought exercise. I really appreciate that. And so the commentary would begin with if we wanted people to do it as purely as I did it, most people would give up in seven days, if that. If not one day or two days

Simon Sinek 34:08 Myself included, by the way. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 34:10 Because so much of it is the same thing every day-

Simon Sinek 34:14 Yeah

Jay Shetty 34:14 ... with no change

Simon Sinek 34:15 Yeah

Jay Shetty 34:16 And all of us today are wired for change. So it's really, really hard-

Simon Sinek 34:22 Mm

Jay Shetty 34:22 ... for someone to sit there and do the same... By the way, we were doing two, four, eight hours of the same thing every day. So do I think that's gonna help people? No. Now what happened in the early days, which I think has changed now, which I did irk me, was this idea that meditation's gonna make you calm and happy and take away all your problems, and you're never ever gonna think about anything wrong again. And so there was this idealized view of it was usually a picture of a woman sitting on a mountaintop doing a yoga pose with a mat and the sun shining, and like that's the perfection of enlightenment, and I think that wasn't a healthy image. I think that's changed now where people are saying, "Well, when you're meditating, you might, you might have a, a negative intrudi- intrusive thought. You might have a jealous thought. You might have a," whatever it may be

Simon Sinek 35:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 35:09 And so I think the conversation has evolved. But in the beginning-

Simon Sinek 35:12 Got it

Jay Shetty 35:12 ... I didn't like the way it was portrayed as this perfect d- you know, perfect thing. Like you meditate and your problems are gone

Simon Sinek 35:19 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 35:20 And you clarified it beautifully. I think there was a time when people believed you have to think about nothing and your mind would have nothing

Simon Sinek 35:26 Right

Jay Shetty 35:26 And that's, that's again changed. Uh, other parts of the commentary that, that I'd say now is I think the other thing is that people who generally get into teaching or sharing meditation, even in a commercial way, generally are still a bit more well-intentioned-

Simon Sinek 35:42 Yeah

Jay Shetty 35:42 ... because it's not, there's far quicker, better paths to make-

Simon Sinek 35:44 And, and they have to make a living

Jay Shetty 35:45 Yeah. Yeah, yeah

Simon Sinek 35:46 Like if you're a yoga teacher or meditation teacher-

Jay Shetty 35:48 Correct

Simon Sinek 35:48 ... you gotta, you got your own bills to pay. Like, it's not the business model that bothers me

Jay Shetty 35:50 Yeah, yeah

Simon Sinek 35:51 It's not the charging that bothers me

Jay Shetty 35:52 Yeah

Simon Sinek 35:52 It's the distortion of the value

Jay Shetty 35:54 Correct. Yeah

Simon Sinek 35:56 You, you, you said something though that I think really-

Jay Shetty 35:58 Yeah, please

Simon Sinek 35:58 ... captures it, which is we've become so metrics obsessed, we crave novelty so much-

Jay Shetty 36:02 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 36:02 ... that, that the business model is actually less about the money and more about the novelty

Jay Shetty 36:06 Yeah

Simon Sinek 36:06 Right? And, uh, and I, I don't necessarily mean that pejoratively. It just, we need, we, we crave new all the time

Jay Shetty 36:12 Yeah

Simon Sinek 36:12 And to your point, doing the same thing every day is just something... And I know this from exercise, right? Which is you see theseYou, you, on socials, all these exercise gurus, you know, showing you all these different kinds of exercises, and this one recommends doing it, you know, on your tiptoes.

Jay Shetty 36:26 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 36:26 And this one recommends doing it hanging from a tree, and this one recommends doing it, you know, whatever it is, doing it, it, all, they all have their own philosophies about how you should exercise, and their very funny way of moving, and they're all giving you demos on Instagram.

Jay Shetty 36:38 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 36:38 But if you go to the gym with them, they do curls and-

Jay Shetty 36:42 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 36:43 ... it's, the, it just looks like old-fashioned-

Jay Shetty 36:45 Yes

Simon Sinek 36:46 ... old-fashioned exercise-

Jay Shetty 36:47 Yes

Simon Sinek 36:47 ... that works all the muscles and work through the muscle groups. And they, that's how they do it.

Jay Shetty 36:51 Yes. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 36:52 And they're, they, they have to come up with content-

Jay Shetty 36:56 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 36:56 ... something new every day-

Jay Shetty 36:58 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 36:58 ... to keep people interested, which ultimately means, hopefully, they'll exercise.

Jay Shetty 37:02 Yes.

Simon Sinek 37:02 Because we don't have the discipline-

Jay Shetty 37:04 Correct

Simon Sinek 37:04 ... to just go to the gym and just do the same thing day in and day out.

Jay Shetty 37:09 Absolutely.

Simon Sinek 37:10 And so it's, it's not a question of business model or money or not money, it's a question of discipline.

Jay Shetty 37:14 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 37:15 And so what we're looking for are Western hacks to keep us disciplined, whether it's skin in the game-

Jay Shetty 37:19 Incentive

Simon Sinek 37:20 ... you know, incentive. Skin in the game of I want to get my money's worth. Or I get bored, so make it novel and I'll keep doing it, you know? And so it's all these little Western hacks to try and derive the benefit from the thing that's supposed to help us.

Jay Shetty 37:35 Exactly. And I think if that-

Simon Sinek 37:36 That's interesting

Jay Shetty 37:36 ... again, b- but, and no, and brilliantly said, and I feel like if that's the intention and that's the goal, all of these things can be... Like I love it when my app tells me I've meditated seven days straight or 14 days straight-

Simon Sinek 37:47 Right, right, right

Jay Shetty 37:48 ... whatever it may be. Like I enjoy that feeling-

Simon Sinek 37:50 Yeah

Jay Shetty 37:50 ... because I need to feel that win because I'm feeling like I'm losing in every other area of my life.

Simon Sinek 37:55 Right.

Jay Shetty 37:55 So if I know I have this win in the morning, that's a big deal for people.

Simon Sinek 37:57 And I think that's totally fair.

Jay Shetty 37:59 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 37:59 And I think the important thing here, I think, is for els- for each of us to self-assess.

Jay Shetty 38:03 Yes.

Simon Sinek 38:03 Right? Which is how, how do you want to be rewarded to keep doing it?

Jay Shetty 38:08 Yes.

Simon Sinek 38:08 Is it skin in the game? Is it a dopamine hit of I won something? The feeling of progress, I did t- three days in a day, in a row, four days in a row, five days, I don't want to break my streak. Before I know it, it's been three months in a row, right?

Jay Shetty 38:19 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 38:19 Or, or is it the novelty that keeps me interested? And I think that, I think, and this goes back, I think, to your advice for, for young people, which is what is it the space that you want to create, and, and how can you keep yourself disciplined? Because all of these are discipline hacks.

Jay Shetty 38:34 Yes.

Simon Sinek 38:34 And I think where, at least for me, where I have made myself feel bad is I picked one that worked for somebody else-

Jay Shetty 38:41 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 38:41 ... but it didn't work for me.

Jay Shetty 38:42 Mm-hmm. Yes. That's exactly it. Spot on.

Simon Sinek 38:44 And so it's about finding, finding the hack-

Jay Shetty 38:47 Yes

Simon Sinek 38:47 ... that keeps you in the moment.

Jay Shetty 38:49 Yes.

Simon Sinek 38:49 And it doesn't matter which one it is.

Jay Shetty 38:52 And, and by the way,

Jay Shetty 38:53 I've been in these shoes in one particular example that I can remember of that teacher where, so I'd, I'd moved to LA, this was like 2018, maybe 2018, 2019, I was jumping into an Uber, and I got in, and five minutes later I realized we hadn't moved, or a couple of minutes later I realized we hadn't moved. And I looked up at the driver and I said, "Hey, how's it going?" And he goes, "Oh yeah, you didn't say hello to me. Like when you came in, you didn't say anything." And I thought about that, like our whole life has been wired for efficiency and productivity and ease. And so I'm on my phone, I walk into the back of an Uber, I'm just messaging. I'm expecting the car to take me there. I'm gonna go without saying bye and acknowledging a human. And some people have shared, oh, maybe he was acting, overreacting, over the top, but I actually think it was brilliant because I think it was a great message to me of just being like, well, why can't you acknowledge a human?

Simon Sinek 39:45 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 39:45 I don't need to tell my wife-

Simon Sinek 39:46 It's not a, it's not a driverless car.

Jay Shetty 39:47 It's not a driverless car. I shouldn't treat it as a driverless car.

Simon Sinek 39:50 And hello seems pretty-

Jay Shetty 39:52 And hello is basic. It's not-

Simon Sinek 39:53 ... is, is an entry level

Jay Shetty 39:54 Yeah. It's not like he's pitching me his movie script or album or whatever it is. He's, he's literally just requesting a hello, and for me that was a really big mindful moment of, wait a minute, that is what mindfulness is. And so I've been in those shoes where-

Simon Sinek 40:07 That's good

Jay Shetty 40:08 ... I've missed it, and I wish-

Simon Sinek 40:10 That's good

Jay Shetty 40:10 ... that, that moment was great for me because ever since that day I've always said hello. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 40:14 And-

Jay Shetty 40:14 Because it's the least we can do for each other

Simon Sinek 40:16 ... so good.

Jay Shetty 40:16 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 40:16 And if the goal of life is to make other people feel seen-

Jay Shetty 40:19 Yes

Simon Sinek 40:20 ... like l- in this case, literally.

Jay Shetty 40:23 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 40:23 Right? Like you didn't know that there was a driver there for two minutes, right?

Jay Shetty 40:27 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 40:27 That's a great... And it's v- it takes so little-

Jay Shetty 40:30 So little

Simon Sinek 40:30 ... to acknowledge someone's existence.

Jay Shetty 40:32 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 40:33 And, and we look at the divisions we have today, I think it's because we've so dehumanized each other. Don't even acknowledge that other people have to share our planet or share our country or share the air that we breathe.

Jay Shetty 40:43 Yeah. And-

Simon Sinek 40:45 It's, it's so simple

Jay Shetty 40:46 ... yeah. And it's happening more and more. Like if you think about how you talk to ChatGPT, one of the reasons why we love AI is because you can talk to ChatGPT however you want. So you can say, you know, "Do it like this. No, like this. No, no, no, do this. Give me this." And so we're literally talking to someone that you'd never be able to talk to a human that way, and that's why we enjoy it, 'cause it kind of unleashes this dominance, power, control, all the things that we haven't been able to use on humans. We can use them on robots and use them on AI and, and use them on technology. And by the way, I'm not against AI. I use it.

Simon Sinek 41:20 Right, right, right, right, right.

Jay Shetty 41:20 But my point is, it doesn't wire the right habits. For example, if I had to tell Uber Eats to order me a pizza, I'd go on Uber Eats or I'd go on DoorDash or whatever it is that you use, Postmates. You click on the thing you want, you press yes, and then it's there, right? Whereas if I wanted to ask my wife to say, "Hey, do you want pizza? Do you want to go out and get it? Like, what are you thinking about? What do you have on today?" It would be a bigger conversation-

Simon Sinek 41:45 Yeah

Jay Shetty 41:45 ... that we'd need to have.

Simon Sinek 41:46 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:46 And I'm not saying that ease isn't important. I use all of these services. But you've got to be really careful-

Simon Sinek 41:52 Mm

Jay Shetty 41:52 ... that your communication with technology doesn't bleed into your communication with humans, because otherwise we're gonna keep dehumanizing each other. So our goal today is not to learn to use ChatGPT better or communicate better, it's to make sure we don't bleed the skills and the weaknesses that come from both of these forms of communication.

Simon Sinek 42:11 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 42:12 You should use ChatGPT efficiently.

Simon Sinek 42:13 That's good.

Jay Shetty 42:14 Just don't let it bleed.

Simon Sinek 42:15 So I, I, I've always believed that they, for Alexa or Siri to work, you have to say please.

Jay Shetty 42:19 [laughs] And that's-

Simon Sinek 42:19 'Cause it's like Sir- you know, "Alexa, set an alarm."You know?

Jay Shetty 42:23 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 42:23 Please.

Jay Shetty 42:24 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 42:24 Like my parents, you know, I- English upbringing

Jay Shetty 42:27 Yes

Simon Sinek 42:27 ... you know, I got in trouble if I didn't say please or thank you.

Jay Shetty 42:29 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 42:29 And I'm curious, in five years or 10 years, do we just raise a generation that doesn't know how to say please 'cause they have a technology that they never have to say please to get what they want?

Jay Shetty 42:36 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 42:36 But I digress. That sounds-

Jay Shetty 42:37 Yeah

Simon Sinek 42:37 ... sounds like a-

Jay Shetty 42:37 No, no, no

Simon Sinek 42:37 ... fuddy-duddy

Jay Shetty 42:38 And I've been trying, I've been trying to encourage ChatGPT. So if I get a really good answer, I'm like, "That's amazing. I love that." And-

Simon Sinek 42:42 Say thank you to ChatGPT

Jay Shetty 42:43 ... yeah, like trying to have this just because I think it trains. I think it's... I remember I was, um, I was having this amazing conversation with Will Smith, and he told me this lesson that he learned when he was training for Ali. And he said that when he was training for Ali, he had to get into the best shape of his life. He was playing Ali. It's impossible to even think about what that looks like. And he's in the boxing ring training before they even film, and he'd get so tired and exhausted that he'd fall on the mat on his back and just lie there. And his trainer would yell, "Get up, because you fight how you train."

Simon Sinek 43:21 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 43:21 You fight how you train.

Simon Sinek 43:22 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 43:22 If in training you get used to the feeling-

Simon Sinek 43:24 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 43:25 ... of the mat-

Simon Sinek 43:25 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 43:25 ... then when you get hit in the real match, you're gonna get used to it, and you won't get back up at the 10 count.

Simon Sinek 43:31 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 43:31 And so you fight how you train. And so for all of us-

Simon Sinek 43:34 Mm

Jay Shetty 43:34 ... you fight how you train.

Simon Sinek 43:35 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 43:35 And the idea that if we're training our brain-

Simon Sinek 43:38 Yeah

Jay Shetty 43:38 ... to be short, snappy, to the point, efficient, and direct, and sometimes aggressive and assertive, that's what you're training yourself to be at home. And I think the work home bleeding is-

Simon Sinek 43:49 It's all the stuff you've been talking about. It's, it associates, it's the classic conditioning.

Jay Shetty 43:52 Yes.

Simon Sinek 43:52 And we're conditioning ourselves to be short, im- you know, snappy, you know, blunt, rude, all of these things.

Jay Shetty 43:59 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 43:59 And now it's sort of like you look at sort of interactions today, huh, that's a good insight. [laughs] That's a good insight. And also, what's the cost of efficiency?

Jay Shetty 44:08 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 44:08 Right? 'Cause there's a cost to everything we do, and what's the cost of efficiency? And we talk about humanizing and dehumanizing. There's this cookie place in New York City that I went to, and the design is very stark. It's like everything's white, you know? My own opinion's like that's not the look I want for a cookie.

Jay Shetty 44:24 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 44:24 Cookies should be warm and inviting, but different conversation.

Jay Shetty 44:26 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 44:26 That's a branding conversation. That's the old marketer in me.

Jay Shetty 44:27 I love aesthetics. We'll talk about that later.

Simon Sinek 44:29 That's, that's, that's the marketer in me. But putting that aside, it's stark white hospital, you know, lighting. And you come in, and the- you're, you're greeted by a screen. And you type in the cookie you want, you pay with your phone or your credit card, and then there's one person who's working in the shop who will get a printout or a screen of what you want. They'll go get your cookie, put it in a box, and hand it to you. You take it. And I watched people. I don't think anyone said thank you-

Jay Shetty 44:56 Mm

Simon Sinek 44:56 ... 'cause they treated this one person as if they were the machine that they just typed in on.

Jay Shetty 45:00 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 45:01 And I felt for this person. This person, you know, you go into a retail job, the w- the warmth that comes from retail is I'm a people person.

Jay Shetty 45:10 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 45:11 You know? I get to interact with people, or I have teammates. There was no teammate, and I was just thinking, "This person will burn out, and this person absolutely hates their job." It's not because it's difficult. It's because they never feel seen-

Jay Shetty 45:24 Mm

Simon Sinek 45:24 ... at any moment throughout the day, and people are treating them the same way they treated the computer.

Jay Shetty 45:28 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 45:28 But this brand, I can guarantee you, told you they're venture capitalists.

Jay Shetty 45:32 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 45:32 We have this efficiency model. We have one employee, blah, blah, blah. And but my question is, is what's the cost of efficiency?

Jay Shetty 45:38 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 45:38 You know? And I'm, and I think in this modern-day and age, we have to start asking the question, maybe it's worth a little less efficiency and a little more humanity.

Jay Shetty 45:46 Yeah. Well said. Yeah. And, uh, and I think, I don't think it's impossible to balance both. Like, I don't think what you're saying is something we can't achieve.

Simon Sinek 45:55 No, no, no, it's not, and it's not a pendulum.

Jay Shetty 45:57 Correct. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 45:58 I'm not saying you would lose efficiency-

Jay Shetty 45:59 Yes

Simon Sinek 45:59 ... but maybe a little less efficiency and a little more humanity.

Jay Shetty 46:03 Yes.

Simon Sinek 46:03 Right?

Jay Shetty 46:03 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 46:03 You just weigh the cost.

Jay Shetty 46:04 Yeah, I would find that. Absolutely.

Simon Sinek 46:05 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 46:05 I agree. I love that. That'd be fun.

Simon Sinek 46:07 So good.

Jay Shetty 46:08 Fun world.

Simon Sinek 46:09 Thanks for coming on.

Jay Shetty 46:10 Thank you for having me. You are a brilliant listener, and that's what makes you such a great interviewer, because you were kind of finding things in what I said that, not only connections, but just finding, like, one or two words or a line which I said, and we c- we could expand on that. That's pretty, um, difficult to do, and so I really appreciate it.

Simon Sinek 46:29 Well, thank you.

Jay Shetty 46:29 You helped me think about things-

Simon Sinek 46:30 Thank you

Jay Shetty 46:30 ... that I haven't said before.

Simon Sinek 46:31 Well, you know, one of my things that I hate, and this is ver- speaking very personally-

Jay Shetty 46:35 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 46:35 ... and this is just me. This is n- this is just me. I hate when I'm the one being interviewed that the person who's interviewing me is, is, uh, so over-prepared-

Jay Shetty 46:45 Yeah

Simon Sinek 46:45 ... that they know my work better than I do.

Jay Shetty 46:47 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 46:47 You know, "Simon, what are the five elements of,"

Jay Shetty 46:50 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 46:50 "... uh, an infinite game?" Well, you clearly know the answer-

Jay Shetty 46:54 Yeah

Simon Sinek 46:54 ... because you knew there were five.

Jay Shetty 46:55 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 46:55 So why don't you just say them?

Jay Shetty 46:57 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 46:57 Like, that's not a fun interview.

Jay Shetty 46:58 No.

Simon Sinek 46:59 And you're not learning anything from me.

Jay Shetty 47:00 Yes.

Simon Sinek 47:00 So there's no joy-

Jay Shetty 47:01 Yeah

Simon Sinek 47:02 ... for me to tell you what you already know.

Jay Shetty 47:04 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 47:04 You know? And so-

Jay Shetty 47:05 Yeah

Simon Sinek 47:05 ... what's the point of having wonderful human beings who have a point of view, a perspective that's sometimes the same, sometimes different than mine, if I can't learn?

Jay Shetty 47:13 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 47:13 Like, I'm gonna sit with you for an hour, and so this is my opportunity to hang out with you and learn from you and get something from you that may or may not exist in the outside world. I don't know.

Jay Shetty 47:22 Yes.

Simon Sinek 47:22 That would be a waste.

Jay Shetty 47:23 Absolutely. Yeah. No, I appreciate it.

Simon Sinek 47:24 I think it's some- it's very practical. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 47:26 Yeah, it is. It is. It is. But it's-- I remember Ray Dalio said it to me when he came on my show once, and I, I felt we had that today, which I really enjoyed. But he said to me after we finished an interview once, he said, "It felt like we were just playing jazz."

Simon Sinek 47:38 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 47:39 And it was like, you know, I just play the percussion over here-

Simon Sinek 47:42 Yeah

Jay Shetty 47:42 ... and then you went off on the keys, and, like, just... And, and that's fun because it's, you're spontaneously directing a path that isn't, you know, presupposed and-

Simon Sinek 47:51 Well, thank you very much

Jay Shetty 47:52 ... preconceived. So thank you for allowing me to do that.

Simon Sinek 47:52 That's a very, very high compliment, and I really appreciate it.

Jay Shetty 47:55 Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 47:55 Especially coming from you. Thank you so, so much.

Jay Shetty 47:57 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 47:57 Hey, good luck with your tour. What, 40? What am I, 30, 37?

Jay Shetty 48:00 No, no, no, that was the last time.

Simon Sinek 48:01 Last year. How many cities are you doing this time?

Jay Shetty 48:02 This is, this is like 20 in North America, I think. Yeah, just, uh-

Simon Sinek 48:04 20 cities. When do you start?

Jay Shetty 48:06 We start in early May.

Simon Sinek 48:08 Early May.

Jay Shetty 48:08 Early May, yeah.

Simon Sinek 48:08 Well, good luck with the tour.

Jay Shetty 48:09 Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Simon Sinek 48:10 I wish you nothing but good fortune.

Jay Shetty 48:12 Appreciate it.

Simon Sinek 48:12 And thanks so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Jay Shetty 48:14 Thank you.

Simon Sinek 48:14 Good times. [upbeat music] If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsay Garbinus, David Ja, and Devin Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Ruetgerschan.